00:00:04.389 - 00:00:37.000

This is Polly Moore today is May 6th 1969. The time is uh 920. This is uh tape four side two footage 538. Uh The interviewee today is uh Mr Joe Graves, Joe Graves Baker College Price University, Houston, Texas 77001. That'll be fine. Thank you. Ok, Joe,

00:00:37.009 - 00:00:53.650

we've been uh sort of getting appointed here and I uh want to uh get on uh record your uh comments about uh uh the presidency of Doctor Pitzer. You mentioned several things that uh uh impressed you during his administration. Uh Could you just review those for

00:00:53.659 - 00:01:08.629

us again? All right. Well, one of the things was his uh academic qualifications. He was very much respected in the academic community uh throughout the country. And I feel that this is an important prerequisite for a president of a university that is trying to attain a

00:01:08.639 - 00:01:30.900

high place in the country. And also during his administration, several uh significant developments took place in terms of the uh improvement in the universities and things in the social area such as improved open house, the movement toward the uh liquor policy. And uh also the court

00:01:30.910 - 00:01:48.279

decision that allowed them uh the university to charge tuition and to admit Negro students was another important part in progress of the university. What kind of university would you like to see? RV? When I chose to come to? I, I came here because I thought it

00:01:48.290 - 00:02:03.129

was one of the best in the country and it also had a good future. I feel that I, I've worked hard and I've done this and this is, is in my purpose, partly in being here, aside from getting my education, it would be to, to make

00:02:03.139 - 00:02:16.130

rise a better university. And I think, I hope that I share this with a lot of other people and I know that I do share, share it with at least some. And I think that this is part of the reason for our concern in this situation.

00:02:18.669 - 00:02:29.029

How would you, you say that R is one of the best in the country? Would you place it just on the, the, the level with the top schools? Uh You usually associate with the East or what, what do you think needs to be done in order

00:02:29.039 - 00:02:45.020

to get it there? If you don't think it's there already in terms of the uh science and engineering curriculum, it's long been respected throughout the country in terms of a total university. Its reputation is based in the Southwest and particularly in Texas and it has not

00:02:45.029 - 00:03:04.679

spread throughout the country. Uh I'm from the Midwest myself and, and talking to people, most of them or a good portion of them have heard of rice, but only in terms of its its science and engineering reputation. And I think that in view of the, the

00:03:05.610 - 00:03:26.860

way things operate around here, where we admit quite a large number of science engineering students and several of these change to the academic disciplines. And it's important that, that these students who uh have potential to be uh good students and scholars have an equal opportunity for

00:03:26.869 - 00:03:44.990

an education in either of the sciences or the academic fields that they should choose to switch. When you um when you got the news that uh doctor pitcher had resigned, what was your immediate reaction? I was rather disappointed actually because I felt that he had done

00:03:45.000 - 00:04:04.070

a good job and I, I had no prior inkling that anything like this was in the wind and it sort of surprised me. Were you uh involved at all with the uh during the period between um his uh resignation? And uh at the time that his

00:04:04.080 - 00:04:21.470

replacement was announced, were you, were you involved in any activities about uh I interviewed for two spots on the uh student, the all student committee to advise the, the student faculty committee? I interviewed for a spot that was open to Baker College and also one that

00:04:21.480 - 00:04:44.320

was open for the Student Association. I didn't receive either of the appointments. So this was uh we had about the last, last fall, sometime about October, I guess you, um, by, uh, showing this interest in participating in this uh presidential selection, uh, you, uh this suggests

00:04:44.329 - 00:04:59.929

that you had some fairly concrete ideas on, on, uh, what kind of man you'd like to see replaced Doctor Fitzer. What kind of qualities did you have in mind? I had in mind that some of the things which I pointed out earlier I felt were good

00:04:59.940 - 00:05:22.859

qualities in pit and it was an academic reputation that I thought could lead the school. Uh someone with, um and I toward progress and I toward making the university ie a national university rather than, than just a service to the Houston community, Art of Texas. I

00:05:22.869 - 00:05:45.730

felt that this was the purpose that I saw for the university and I thought I shared this with several other students in faculty. And uh I felt that this was the kind of precedent that we needed and uh someone who would uh pay attention to the,

00:05:45.739 - 00:06:06.790

to the academic side of things. Uh The, the president is sort of sort of in between me between the, the board. His main concern. It, it would seem is, and it seems to me should be that the financing university control there. And uh but men, it

00:06:06.799 - 00:06:26.470

would be uh um courageous enough that is particularly a good word, but to uh to set his own academic policy from his background and be qualified to set this academic policy and then, and then convince the board that, that his academic policy was the best in

00:06:26.480 - 00:06:42.859

the interests of the university so that the, the board could handle the handle the uh financing and, and, and the academics which they aren't quite as well suited for, could be handled by the academic president who had the experience and know how to set this policy

00:06:44.459 - 00:06:58.890

by talking uh uh about the president's competence in the academic world. Does, does this mean that you uh were leaning in the direction of a man in the humanities or the social sciences rather than the natural sciences? I felt that it, it didn't make a whole

00:06:58.899 - 00:07:13.850

lot of difference that I, I wouldn't put this high on the list of qualifications, but all of the things being equal, I did feel that it would be beneficial to have someone from the humanities or academics as we call it here because of uh the already

00:07:13.859 - 00:07:35.350

established, established reputation in sciences and engineering and the the need for, for building in the academic fields. Did you have any particular man in mind that you thought would make a good, uh a good president for r unfortunately, I didn't, I'm not well enough acquainted with

00:07:35.359 - 00:07:53.089

the situation and as I was informed of the responsibilities of the committees to which I applied, it was, it was actually the same committee, it was two different posts on the same committee that uh we would be more or less a criterion setting body. And we

00:07:53.100 - 00:08:09.630

would not ever get in touch with names and, and personal records that this would be left to the committees on up the line. That it would be just our, our job to hear the uh opinions of the students and try to assemble some sort of a,

00:08:09.640 - 00:08:30.290

a guide in terms of what we learn in qualifications for the president during the uh period where this uh oh the faculty advisory uh the student faculty advisory committee were meeting and the student committee uh uh was meeting. Did you um were you exposed to any

00:08:30.299 - 00:08:50.419

rumors or anyone talking about a candidate whose name they had submitted? Uh um were there any names developed uh that you thought might uh make a good choice? I hadn't heard anything along this line until very shortly before the announcement was made. What did you hear?

00:08:50.429 - 00:09:07.989

Then I heard Doctor Masterson, what was your impression about him? I was a little bit reserved but I didn't know the man particularly. He left here the year before I came, I had some very good friends who had, had him for class and had had dealings

00:09:08.000 - 00:09:23.590

with him in terms of his job that had as his master of pains in college and the preliminary reports that I had got from them. And it wasn't at this time, this was uh opinions that had been expressed to me two years before. And in my

00:09:23.599 - 00:09:47.400

recollections of these were not particularly favorable toward him. But uh the, the, the one thing that, that uh immediately came to mind was that I wasn't at all sure about his academic qualifications in terms of a recognized scholar and also in terms of a, of an

00:09:47.409 - 00:10:09.809

able administrator and uh experienced person, in terms of, of uh educational policy. When you say that um your impression of masters had been formed from what people told you a couple of years before. Uh uh and it was not particularly favorable. And what what was said

00:10:09.820 - 00:10:32.369

about him, uh particularly uh the information that was conveyed to me was that in, in terms of certain things like open house policy and so on, he had had been somewhat stubborn in his uh his opposition to the to the progressive uh use of, of open

00:10:32.380 - 00:10:50.609

house and, and that he had, had been at times very hard to deal with in terms of his relationships with the cabinet and so on. And OK, open house is the policy of allowing uh uh visitors in the dormitory. Uh Right. This, this is, this is

00:10:50.619 - 00:11:05.869

a policy that lets bring girls up to the room for parties and so on. And it's, it's a, it's a very, well, I won't say very, it's a, it's a, it's a restricted program. There is, there are specific hours when this can be done. It's only

00:11:05.880 - 00:11:26.580

during the afternoon on weekdays and at that time, it was it was a much, uh, much more limited policy, I believe there was one afternoon or two afternoon and, and I think one or two night open houses alive per week and, and the policy has been,

00:11:26.590 - 00:11:43.239

has been liberalized since then, but it's part of the time in Baker. Anyway, we have afternoon open houses every day of the week. You know, on Friday and Saturday we have open houses sorted through the evening at one o'clock at, excuse me, one o'clock at night,

00:11:43.250 - 00:11:58.359

each open house has to be approved by the master of the college. And uh each guest must be signed in with the signature of the, of the member of the, of the college. What's the time in and out and the rooms to which they are going.

00:12:00.840 - 00:12:16.539

So, um, the, the open house policy is not necessarily uniform in all the colleges. Each college, college sets its own and it must be approved. And uh your impression was that uh the open house policy in at Hanson under Doctor Masterson was, uh, ran into some

00:12:16.549 - 00:12:35.549

difficulty in, in uh adding to the schedule and so forth. There had been an incident some years before, I'm, I'm not sure just exactly when and there was some sort of open house policy before that time. And following this incident, open house policy was completely canceled

00:12:35.880 - 00:12:53.169

and then they were in the, in the process of bringing it back and it, it uh ran into quite a bit of opposition from what I understand from Doctor Menstruum. In other words, he, uh, you got the impression that, uh, his preference was that it not

00:12:53.179 - 00:13:10.359

be reopened at all. I'm not particularly clear on the details of that. I believe that's the period that he was involved in when they were beginning it again. Initially, he may have been involved after already instituted and he was, he was just tending to limit it.

00:13:15.109 - 00:13:31.049

Well, that brings us up to uh then the announcement, uh, how did you first get the news that, uh the board had selected a uh president? Well, I, I was busy all Friday afternoon and I just happened to, to see a notice up the meeting late

00:13:31.059 - 00:13:45.500

Friday afternoon, shortly before dinner time and the meeting had already taken place by that time. And then of course, when I get back to the darn, there was quite a bit of discussion about it. It was topic of the hour, so to speak. What was the

00:13:45.510 - 00:14:11.150

general tone of the discussions? Um I think people were starting to, to uh become antagonistic to the whole thing because of the, of the method in which it had been conveyed. And enough of the people had, had been present either outside the faculty meeting or, or

00:14:11.159 - 00:14:32.750

in the uh student meeting with, uh, one of the board members whose name escapes me right now. And, uh, the events that had transpired in the afternoon had seemed pretty well, convinced the students that had attended these, that, uh, there had been an error somewhere along

00:14:32.760 - 00:14:53.929

the line. Who did you talk to? Did you have an opportunity to, to, uh, get the news directly from the students, uh, who had heard the announcement or, uh? Right. Uh, we had a college meeting following dinner Friday night, Mike Benon, who was our college president

00:14:53.940 - 00:15:11.539

at that time, had attended the meeting and he pretty well outlined what had happened. What was his attitude toward the, the whole thing? He felt that, that there had been a mistake made and he felt that, uh, something would very likely be done about it from

00:15:11.549 - 00:15:29.359

the reaction. I wish I could remember who the board member was that had been present. Yeah, I believe that Mr Allen and Mr T where it was, right. Um, and that he had had admitted supposedly at the student meeting that the board had made a mistake.

00:15:29.369 - 00:15:41.460

And so that the, the opinion expressed at that time was that the board had realized that they had made their mistake and they were apologizing and then there was a pretty good chance that they would do something about it, although it was not there at that

00:15:41.469 - 00:15:59.640

time was just exactly what they would do. In other words. Uh Did you get the idea that when the, um, that, that when Mike Herman was um talking about these meetings that the mistake was in not consulting the faculties the committee or the mistake was in

00:15:59.650 - 00:16:23.109

the man they select. The mistake was, was in the lack of consultation with the committee. Uh The man and his personal qualifications were, were not discussing and this issue at most times was attempted to be minimized. It was, it was somewhat discussed among the people just

00:16:23.119 - 00:16:39.510

for the reason that people would not well say, say, well, you know, ok, they, you know, they didn't do it in a good manner, but we got a good enough president. So let's, you know, not worry about it. And so that it was pointed out that

00:16:39.520 - 00:16:58.369

this man was not obviously the good, a good choice for the president and at least from my point of view and just to, to uh make students look at, you know, at, at the method and, and uh it, it was stated that she couldn't separate these

00:16:58.380 - 00:17:20.579

two issues. And, and I think in a sense you can't, in the sense that I'm talking about that if, if the man had been obviously well qualified, there might not have been as much opposition to the decision, but the, the basis for the, for the protest.

00:17:21.060 - 00:17:38.670

And, and rightly so was, was the fact that the, the decision had not been made in, in a, in a manner that was expected by the students of the fact when, um, the speaker, when Mike Berman suggested that there was a pretty good chance that something

00:17:38.680 - 00:17:54.219

might be done about it. Uh What, how did you interpret this? What did you think? You didn't say that? Exactly. I, I think I would rephrase that the thing that should be said was that the feeling, there was a feeling of optimism at this time that,

00:17:54.530 - 00:18:11.109

that we felt, or at least it was ex somewhat expressed, not that necessarily, you know, that something would be done, but that the board had been convinced, you know, and then they had it, it was not no longer a problem of showing them that, that something

00:18:11.119 - 00:18:28.540

was wrong, that they had admitted that that something was wrong. And in, in the face, then, you know, we had somewhat assumed, I think, not necessarily uniformly, but with you, there was a feeling of optimism that grew out of the fact that they had already understood

00:18:28.550 - 00:18:45.150

the problem and they admitted that they had made a mistake. They don't necessarily guarantee that they would reverse themselves. Did the, did the idea occur to you or the desire occur to you this early that the board, uh, that, that your goal was to get the

00:18:45.160 - 00:19:03.729

board to reverse itself or, uh, was it that clear cut that soon? I don't feel that we felt they had to reverse themselves. I feel that at least from my own personal point of view, I didn't feel that doctor mi was not qualified. I just felt

00:19:03.739 - 00:19:23.560

that I was not sure that he was qualified and I, I was a little miffed at the, at the swiftness of the decision in view of the question about his qualifications. And I think that I would have been satisfied if, if his qualifications had been represented

00:19:23.569 - 00:19:42.459

to the committee and that, you know, without acting, they acted, you know, not under duress, but I would actually consider him and, and, and felt that he was qualified, then I feel that that, that should have been sufficient for me. But that was not the, the

00:19:42.479 - 00:20:04.689

force that they chose to follow after the meeting at me at college on Friday night. Uh Did you have any further activities on this problem? Uh That, that evening, uh not in real sense, the radio station of course, was broadcasting. And uh they started to come

00:20:04.699 - 00:20:22.810

up with the idea of the march and so on for Saturday morning. But later on then I got one out somewhere or study or something. But when, when I returned, there were some signs up in saying that it would be, you know, a coat tied. Did

00:20:22.819 - 00:20:41.849

you go to the meeting then on Saturday, what took place there? Uh There were discussion, there was some, a degree of discussion. Uh both sides were represented, there were students and faculty, both that spoke on students and on each side and faculty on each side, they

00:20:41.859 - 00:21:07.369

followed a vote which of course, the results that are, you know, probably uh pressure and so on. But uh there's overwhelming support of, of reconsideration. I did the surgery in your opinion. Who was the most eloquent speaker that morning? Uh, let's see, that would probably be

00:21:07.380 - 00:21:23.229

a pretty hard push. Well, maybe I didn't phrase it correctly. Uh, were there any that, that especially stand out in your mind is being impressive? I don't believe so. I think I can't none that I recall anymore. I, I do believe that there were a couple

00:21:23.239 - 00:21:44.410

of comments or a couple of different perspectives that were, that were voiced on the situation that uh they fit in pretty much with, with the, with the feeling that I had developed up to that point. I mean, I, I did see the opposite, the opposite point

00:21:44.420 - 00:22:04.219

of view. This was probably expressed a little more than, than it had been before. But uh one thing that did become apparent to me was that there was almost, and this was the way I sort of felt before, but there was almost uniform um objection to

00:22:04.229 - 00:22:31.260

a method and the people who, who weren't completely behind the protest and we're still behind against the method of this election. Would it be correct to, to, to say that that uh that the real core of the conflict over method um was the issue of, of

00:22:31.500 - 00:22:54.290

uh of the extent to which faculty students should have a voice in uh university affairs? I don't think that would be a fair assumption because uh there are a number of students who are, or some students who are either very liberal or possibly might radical, some

00:22:54.300 - 00:23:11.829

of you would call radical who, who are concerned with this and see this, this sort of thing all the time. But the majority of the students, I do not, I do not think in these kind of terms and, and the, the immediateness and, and the, and

00:23:11.839 - 00:23:32.319

the practicality of this particular situation was, was I think what caught them up in it rather than the, than the idealistic or the, or the overriding kind of thing of the voice of the students in the university. Um This was sort of the issue that was

00:23:32.329 - 00:23:52.969

buried into, but I think it was on a little different level than most of the people were thinking at the time. Uh It very directly bears on the situation because this is what they were objecting to because I mean, they didn't feel that, that they should

00:23:52.979 - 00:24:12.780

be, you know, completely closed off. They weren't, they weren't trying to, you know, to achieve any real power. But uh I, I think again, you get, you get tied up with this, this deal of the man entering into it because they were interested in their personal

00:24:12.790 - 00:24:33.489

interest in terms of, of building a good university and so on like this. And then they didn't feel that the man could do that and then so that this can begin to, to keep the, the thing going and they need a day off. Mhm. Well, this

00:24:33.500 - 00:24:52.369

does, does this suggest then that uh the, the one unifying factor throughout the whole human body that enabled it to get, give this project such wide support um was really their idea of what the university uh should be and their conviction that this man really couldn't

00:24:52.380 - 00:25:15.430

accomplish this. I would hope so. Yeah, in analyzing this, I, I wouldn't say this is universally true but part of the problem why it's not, maybe the fact of, of, of s a simple problem of trying to um categorize a large group of people with any,

00:25:15.439 - 00:25:35.290

with any one statement. In other words, you know, there's a sort of a, you know, a great number of causes and personal reasons and so on. Um That, I think, I think that's true in the sense that they tended to, to think more in terms of

00:25:35.300 - 00:25:51.319

the university because they were involved with the faculty, they were meeting the family, faculty were talking back and forth with them. And then they got this feeling of the university now, whether it started that way or how it started. I'm not exactly sure for each person,

00:25:51.329 - 00:26:10.099

but I, I think that this possibly was a thing that, that kept it going was the feeling of the university and then where it, where it would go when you uh said a moment before that, uh a couple of the uh points that were made by

00:26:10.109 - 00:26:27.449

some of the speakers, uh finished with, uh, what your attitudes had been before this. Uh, can you, can you elaborate on this for me and tell me whose, whose speech it was that, uh, that, that's what I was saying before when I didn't remember specifically and

00:26:27.459 - 00:26:51.359

no one stood out to me enough at this point that I could say they really impress me. It's just, just the kind of thing that possibly in terms of more arguments, you know, in, in terms of what I've been taught you in the way, in terms

00:26:51.369 - 00:27:10.800

of the way I'd felt before and just, you know, different ways to portray the facts and that more clearly express the feeling that I had had. And about how long did that meeting? Last meeting lasted about an hour. And then you marched from the, marched from

00:27:10.810 - 00:27:26.209

the gym down uh the street in front of the men's colleges and, and passed uh Cohen House to the front of the love hall. Did you notice any, uh were there any hecklers uh to the march or was everybody, everybody in the march for the same

00:27:26.219 - 00:27:43.589

purpose? Everybody in the march was pretty orderly. Uh There were some people standing, you know, on the sides of his walk out in front of his college and most, most of them were not, not hecklers, they were sympathetic and possibly either too busy or, or too

00:27:43.599 - 00:28:06.569

uninterested, you know, to, you know, to participate in the activity. So, so we didn't receive any disparaging comments from the body smear there, there's no little fringe uh opposition anywhere uh to the uh everyone including the what you might call a student radicals. We're, we're pretty

00:28:06.579 - 00:28:23.390

much in line with the, the protest and, and this is, this is the course that they followed throughout the situation, which is beneficial because if we had begun splitting off, I thought that they would, we would have been in trouble in trying to achieve anything. And

00:28:23.400 - 00:28:43.469

they, they realized this in the situation and stayed in the context of the student body when you got over to the uh to the, was it uh uh you got over there? Well, what uh what happened then? There was quite a long wait, I'd say something

00:28:43.479 - 00:29:03.030

like 45 minutes or maybe even an hour while Doctor Masterson had his uh press conference in Cohen House. And during this time, there were small groups around talking to some of the students and the faculty uh talking back and forth, continuing to discuss sometimes in, in

00:29:03.040 - 00:29:27.140

groups of maybe 40 or 50 people listening to the same person talk, but uh nothing particular interest took place at that time. And until Doctor Masterson Emer a press conference, it will happen. He uh came over to Lovett Hall and stood up on a, just a

00:29:27.150 - 00:29:45.189

little stone there that's part of the building. So he could be seen and he had a, had a voice gun and he spoke through and he was uh in a sense confronted by the students in several points were brought up to him in terms of uh

00:29:45.920 - 00:30:03.280

would he consider uh withholding his acceptance pending the action of the student Faculty committee? And he said, no, he didn't think this was the best part of his best interests of the university. And he uh his first comment was that there had been a breakdown in

00:30:03.290 - 00:30:24.189

communications and that he would make it his 1st 1st job once he took office to repair the breakdown, which in, in general, I think you could, you could characterize his remarks there by doing you more harm than good because of the students and the faculty that

00:30:24.199 - 00:30:47.810

were present there. Um work somewhat antagonized by his action to use and very stern. His, his general attitude was that, that the board is may be president and I am going to be president and that's the way it's gonna be. So it really did very little

00:30:47.819 - 00:31:14.760

good to have him have him talk. In fact, he probably did more, as I say, more harm. He was uh tackled in, in, in, in some degree because of the things that he said finally here left people dispersed, that was about one o'clock or went to

00:31:16.719 - 00:31:30.310

when he left to get the idea he was uh sort of retreating or did, did you get the impression that he felt that he was leaving things in good shape now too? He he, I think what he said was, he said, well, I don't think anything

00:31:30.319 - 00:31:50.969

more here is going to be beneficial to the university. And so with that he got down, started to walk away. Was there any particular statement or point that especially, uh stand out in your mind from uh his presentation that morning? Well, possibly two things that I

00:31:51.050 - 00:32:05.150

that I mentioned already was, is just his general attitude was not one of, of, of the kind of relationship that you would hope would exist between the administration and faculty, which would be one of, you know, well, you know, if we get some differences, come on,

00:32:05.160 - 00:32:23.650

let's, you know, talk them over it pretty much just an, an auto point of view. And secondly, was the, the issue that I, I thought, you know, that this had been somewhat brought up at that time and was made a bigger point later because this question

00:32:23.660 - 00:32:38.670

had, had particularly been asked him at that time. But if he was acting in good faith and, you know, and so on, he, he could have withheld his acceptance until he was approved. If he felt that he was really, you know, qualified to be the president.

00:32:39.380 - 00:33:02.650

And if he didn't feel that he was qualified, then he shouldn't have accepted in the first place that you can refuse to do this, this will start at central. What did you do after this? Um, this meeting, I did very little until Sunday, you may have

00:33:02.660 - 00:33:20.939

to wait and there was being continual discussion back and forth between different members, you know, on a person to person basis. But, uh, however, there was, there were several meetings that took place. Uh, I guess you're probably familiar with these, with the college presidents and the

00:33:20.949 - 00:33:44.660

Student Association officers with Doctor Masterson. Right afternoon in the evening, the results of that his, um, actions and promising to meet some day and then changing his mind and flying back to Chattanooga were finally the, the, the kind of thing that sort of breaks it off

00:33:44.670 - 00:34:04.449

and, and polarizes the issue, which, which is something that pretty much happened kinda during the whole crisis. And this is, this is, this is pretty much a result of this and more particularly, which is directly related to this, but it's sort of along the same lines.

00:34:04.459 - 00:34:25.509

But the, the Freeman question that came up later, it, it tends to result in a polar polarization of the students when, uh, he left, uh Sunday morning, uh, after having promised to meet with the faculty. Did you hear anyone at all suggest that, uh, the fact

00:34:25.519 - 00:34:38.590

that he left suddenly, uh without further discussion may be an indication that he was beginning to change his mind, maybe even be going back to see if he could retrieve his own job. I heard, I heard that I heard that point raised later on. I don't

00:34:38.600 - 00:34:54.468

think I heard it raised at that time. I'm, I'm not really sure that I heard it raised until after he had already resigned. But II, I did hear it raised some, uh, not immediately, but some later time I'd be here at that point. Did this occur

00:34:54.479 - 00:35:10.649

to you at all? On the basis of what you heard? No, it didn't because of the attitude that it had been taken up to this point. I mean, the, the autocratic attitude and this is the way it is and the, the reports that I had from

00:35:10.659 - 00:35:25.120

the, from those meetings in terms of what had been accomplished and so on probably just felt like, you know, it wouldn't need to be anything more done. I might as well just go home. Sure from who wanted to put on this. Uh Did you get most

00:35:25.129 - 00:35:47.239

of your information again? I heard from Mike Vernon who was pregnant for me. OK. Is that explanation of that college meetings then Sunday uh afternoon and evening, what did you do Sunday evening? I think about 10 o'clock or something like that. There was another and other

00:35:47.250 - 00:36:15.770

college meeting and this was when they announced that the poll would be taken. This was a a uh another, you know, exchange of views between the students and the faculty. So, and in terms of impressive speakers, this is probably one that I do remember that uh

00:36:16.199 - 00:36:39.449

one of the professors from the chemical Engineering department who was a rice undergraduate and graduate and a professor here. In fact, I think he was a member of Baker College and graduated. Are that maybe affiliated, affiliated with it as a graduate student? But it right, he

00:36:39.459 - 00:37:03.090

spoke something to the effect that he, it was used to leaders leading by grace. And that he had seen so many people around the university that he, he had held in high esteem. He felt very important to the university so upset by the situation that he

00:37:03.100 - 00:37:22.330

didn't feel that that Doctor Masterson could function properly as the president. I'm this, this sort of point of view. It, it's been expressed in sort of different form, you know, a couple of times earlier. But I think this was particularly impressive to a lot of people

00:37:22.340 - 00:37:37.770

because he wasn't an associate of actor. He had particularly invited to the meeting, he brought it upon himself to come and he had the, the personal. That's true. Oh, I gotten the most important point of reasons and I think about why it was there. But he

00:37:37.780 - 00:37:57.949

said he felt that that Doctor Masterson was a personal friend of his. And, but regardless of whether he personally thought that he could do the job, he just felt that. But in view of the situation, you didn't feel it. We just work on it. Who, who

00:37:57.959 - 00:38:30.909

was this faculty member? Doctor Kashian? How do you spell it? OK. I would be ish eye or something like that. I'm not exactly sure. It's Koy, I think I'll check that up. I wanted to just make a meeting last Sunday night about, um, an hour and

00:38:30.919 - 00:38:50.340

a half, I guess or so. Was there any other speakers you remember? Not particularly, most of the, most of the points of view were, were expressed and I, I did have a little s concern myself but, and this is along the line of the letter I

00:38:50.350 - 00:39:04.620

wrote to the thresher, which somehow I never got the pressure, but it was broadcast on the radio. Do you have a copy of that letter? If you do with it? I'd like you to contribute it to the archives so we can make a copy of it

00:39:04.629 - 00:39:22.500

for you to use. I don't think I do it. The main context of it was just, there was quite a or at least I think it was Brown Brown College. There was an opinion expressed that there were two questions on the, on the, on the poll.

00:39:22.510 - 00:39:44.409

I was like, you know, that, you know, unless you personally could judge the man in his qualifications, you couldn't, couldn't, you should abstain on the second question. But the the this was really imperative to our cause because if both of the proposals didn't receive large majorities,

00:39:44.850 - 00:40:06.159

then it would, it would, the issue would be dead, the board would feel that they would, you know, that they had satisfied the majority of the students. And so therefore feel that they had to fulfill their obligation in both the legal sense, moral sense too. But

00:40:06.580 - 00:40:24.179

it just pointed out the fact that you didn't particularly have to judge Doctor Masterson to vote for the second one that if he was qualified, and it was perfectly logical that since the board had selected him once, so they could select him again and bring him

00:40:24.189 - 00:40:42.669

before the faculty student committee. And uh if he was qualified, you know, then he would attain the, the position. And uh, if he wasn't, you know, if, if he, if this decision was recalled and if he wasn't qualified, then he, you know, he wouldn't be the

00:40:42.679 - 00:41:01.840

president. Whereas if they didn't pass a second by a large majority, he would, he would remain as president regardless of his qualifications. And it, it, in the, in the case that he was not qualified that there would be no recourse of action. Ordinary students and faculty

00:41:01.850 - 00:41:24.610

in the universities at all would still to suffer if he wasn't coughing. You said this didn't appear the threshold? I don't really know what happened because, um, Dennis Baylor said he was gonna get in and, uh, supposedly Warren Gear and saw it and said it ought

00:41:24.620 - 00:41:41.459

to get in. And then I, I just, this was really late that night. It was Sunday night and I went over there to the thresher office and wrote this thing out about 1130 or midnight and, uh, about one o'clock in the morning, I heard it on

00:41:41.469 - 00:41:57.340

the radio and they, they were playing it right the next day too and they, they said that, um, this warrant and sent it down from upstairs. I don't know whether they, they had one copy and took it down to the radio station and never got up

00:41:57.350 - 00:42:09.919

or the paper was full. So, possibly they just, you know, felt that since they sent it to the radio station that would be sufficient, maybe they shut it down there because they didn't even put it in. I don't really know what, what went on. It wasn't

00:42:10.129 - 00:42:27.510

particularly important because there couldn't be anything more done, you know, to it at the time. I said it turn that out and although we don't know for sure, we have to assume that in both of the pulse, uh got very big support and do the action

00:42:27.639 - 00:42:44.020

start. Did you get over to the Brown meeting at all or did you uh decide to write the letter on the basis of what you heard, what was going on? I talked to someone later on. But this, this wasn't particularly just because of the Brown question.

00:42:44.030 - 00:43:00.189

It became more important in terms of that, but the feeling had, had been expressed at Baker by a small group. And although the, you know, there was widespread support for the thing that not everybody had attended the college meeting and there were a lot of people

00:43:00.199 - 00:43:16.780

there from both on and off campus. And the place was just literally filled. But there were still some that hadn't in an attempt to, to reach these people and to portray the logic of the situation too. I like, uh, you know, I go ahead and do

00:43:16.870 - 00:43:37.510

that because the issue had been, had been sort of, sort of touched on in various different ways by different people at the meeting. But I hadn't really gotten to say what I wanted and then we had adjourned for an intermission and it was, it was finally

00:43:37.520 - 00:43:55.729

decided that we would, you know, reconvene after that because quite a number of people had left and so on and the other people that were around were like, got in the lounge talking between themselves and so on. So what happened on Monday, uh Monday was, was

00:43:55.739 - 00:44:12.699

the boat. And then after that, it was, it was quiet, it was quiet until about Tuesday afternoon. Uh, the, the position then was, was one of that we felt and the position all through was that we would try to portray our feelings in a way that

00:44:12.709 - 00:44:33.610

we, you know, that they would understand. Apparently they hadn't understood, you know, because of the comments that that continually appeared in terms of, they felt that it was only a small group of students that were objecting and the majority were behind it and so on. We,

00:44:33.800 - 00:44:46.500

you know, that's probably why they came up with the idea of the poll that it would you know, there would be a very little way that you could, you know, talk around that when you the results, they can turn to the new version. Yeah. So we

00:44:46.510 - 00:45:01.320

felt that, you know, if we had portrayed, this is the best way we could portray it. So the next course of action from there, although it had not been decided, and this is another policy that we followed that we would, we would try to impress upon

00:45:01.330 - 00:45:20.320

them how we felt and then wait and give them a chance to, to decide or to, you know, to, to acknowledge this. And if they didn't, then we would try to go on some, some, some stronger method of impressing upon him. Our feelings say it, it's

00:45:20.330 - 00:45:39.149

quite possible. Although I don't know, I, I really, I hesitate to say this because, you know, this starts, we past the point of that of the poll, you start to get into the realm of things that, you know, are, are really objectionable and terms is well,

00:45:40.229 - 00:45:55.540

possibly what might have occurred next. And, and this was the best of the ideas had been expressed. Although there would have been a great deal more thought involved in terms of the next action. If we had had to make, it would be not a strike but

00:45:55.550 - 00:46:13.179

a uh a convening of classes off the campus which in Herman Park or in, you know, in somebody's room or apartment off campus, something like that. Too so that the work at the university could go on, you know, in the church is right around here or

00:46:13.189 - 00:46:30.449

something like that, the, the work at university could go on, but we could impress, impress upon them that there was AAA good deal more than the, than the buildings and the facilities and so on. And the actually the students and the faculty constituted a large part

00:46:30.459 - 00:46:51.250

of the university and should be considered. But fortunately, we didn't have to, what was your reaction when you got the news of the, uh, resignation? Well, I was just, you know, sort of glad and sort of glad that it was over and it was sort of

00:46:51.260 - 00:47:11.729

a sad thing. I mean, anyway, I, I realized that it's pretty hard on Doctor Masterson, but this is in a way, you know, this is something, this point was brought up by, uh, faculty members. I don't recall who just now that, that you can feel sorry

00:47:11.739 - 00:47:29.129

for him. But, but by the same token, he should, you know, and at this time, he, the age that we lived in, we should have made some attempt to, you know, to discover if he, you know, if he had been appointed that that was expected. And

00:47:29.139 - 00:47:50.919

also, you know, what the, what the feeling was was to you before he accepted, which he evidently didn't attempt to do. And, and from what I understand he had received telephone calls from members of the community, particularly faculty members that didn't know they tried to impress

00:47:50.929 - 00:48:16.610

upon the situation. You continue to, to take this course of action. But it was an unfortunate situation on that because, well, particularly because of the, the I don't feel that I feel that the, the, the defect of the reputation of rice in the community could have,

00:48:16.620 - 00:48:41.020

could have, you know, the detrimental effect could have been lessened if the news coverage and, and the papers had been different than it was. But from our point of view, at least it was particularly slanted, portrayed that the, you know, the, the activities and much, much

00:48:41.030 - 00:49:02.060

darker light actually than I feel it could have been betrayed in and, and things result in the way they did. And I just made it that much worse because if you, you wanna talk in terms of one, you know, who won, which really, you know, is

00:49:02.350 - 00:49:19.389

a good way to look at it, but the opposite side from the, the side that was, that was betrayed, you know, portrayed in the papers and the side that supposedly, you know, you would expect public sympathy to be with was not decided that that one quotation

00:49:19.399 - 00:49:44.979

marks. So in that sense, it, it hurt rest, you know, more. I don't, I really feel that in, in spite of, in spite of what may have happened to rice and the I, I think we're better off for having, having gone through it the way we

00:49:44.989 - 00:50:10.669

did because I think more harm would have been done the other way. What have you learned from this experience? Personally, Jill, has it taught you anything special? Well, I don't know. It, it, uh, gives me some sort of insight, I guess into, into the, the kind

00:50:10.679 - 00:50:32.689

of turmoil that goes on in other campuses. And I, I think this was quite a bit different but, uh, I, I start to see, you know, what the, what the results are of, of confrontations on campuses around the country. And it, it tends, tends to make

00:50:32.699 - 00:50:50.750

people think and I had hoped at the time that, that the, that the widespread involvement and so on would, would tend to carry over judging from the past election. I don't think it didn't do it, which is really unfortunate because I had felt that it might,

00:50:50.760 - 00:51:12.479

I mean, we talked about this before the, you know, the immediate pragmatic motivation in as opposed to being somewhat idealistic or the, you know, the overview of the situation. And uh I may have been wrong in my assessment there, but I, I just, I don't particularly

00:51:12.489 - 00:51:28.699

feel that I was wrong. I just particularly feel that the feeling in the university is expressed due to the closeness of the faculty and students and, and the, and the, and the uh united effort behind the cause developed this feeling in the university. But after the

00:51:28.709 - 00:51:48.229

cause was removed, the feeling in the university dissipated and people went back to, you know, their own study, whatever else they do, they do with that without, uh, keeping a particular interest in university. I, I think, I think it's there but I don't feel that they're

00:51:48.239 - 00:52:03.540

as concerned about it as it is as they aren't. And there's, there's, there's two extremes on this in terms of the involvement. I mean, there, there's a small group of people who, you know, who run for the offices and who, who, who, you know, work on

00:52:03.550 - 00:52:20.850

campaigns and stuff like that and then there's on both sides, there's the people that are interested, but just feel that, that the, that the, the whole thing is so useless and so powerless that they don't worry about it, you know, they just, and then on the

00:52:20.860 - 00:52:38.550

other side, which is probably the by far, the greater majority of those who are concerned with other things. And in a way the two sides are related because they don't, they, the uninterested so to speak are uninterested, I guess, to some degree because they don't feel

00:52:38.560 - 00:52:53.669

that there's that much, you know, power and importance and it's only in the student association and not necessarily in a thinking way, whether they don't really get down and analyze the choice and say, well, you know, I'm not gonna care because it's not gonna make that

00:52:53.679 - 00:53:10.689

much difference, but they aren't attracted to this or don't take an interest in it because it doesn't attract their attention and this is the same idea is behind the, the cause, you know, immediate cause motivation for the action in terms of the mass or something that

00:53:10.699 - 00:53:28.830

unless there, there's something concrete there to show them and to draw their attention, they're kind of hard to, to, to pull out of their, you know, regular environment and habits. Well, Joe, I certainly think you've given us a, a fine interview and I wanna thank you

00:53:28.840 - 00:53:44.139

for coming in in the middle of the exam week to, to talk to us. Is there anything more you'd like to add before? Um, we closed? I'm sure if anything occurs to you, we'll still be back here next, uh, next September. Ok. Fine. Thanks very much

00:53:44.149 - 00:53:49.239

for coming in the time is now 1020.