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Hello. Today is August 31st, 2023. My name is Kihan Sung and I'm with our interviewee, Dr. Jing Li, on behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive. Dr. Li is an associate professor at Rice University in the Department of

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Sociology, and her research interests lie in migrant populations, especially Asian immigrant households. To start off, when and where were you born? Yes, I was born in China.

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So, yeah, I grew up. Grew up there, and yeah. Could you tell us where in China you were born? Yes, I was born in the east part of China. I was born in Hefei, the city—the capital city

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of Anhui province. And then I grew up in Qinzhou, a city in Jiangsu Province. So, yeah. And could you tell us when that was—what year you were born?

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Yeah, I was born 1977. Great. And in that time, would you—could you describe your neighborhood? How was it like? Was it rural, or urban, or—

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Yes. My family were—okay—both my parents were medical professionals working with the Army at that

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time. So, I was born in that in–in I was born there. That's why I was born in one place, and later we moved to another city. So, my daughter, my–my–my–my dad

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was a burn specialist. So, he was a surgeon. My mom was a nurse. So, yeah, I was born in this medical professional family.

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Yes. So, could you tell us how your upbringing was? Were your parents strict, or did they have some values that they wanted to instill in you as you were growing up?

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Yes. My parents—I want to say—I have a sister, I have an older sister, so I'm a younger one. I was—and there are only two of us in our family. I was born around the time that one-child policy

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was implementing at that time. So, my parents actually got into trouble because my mom was pregnant with me at that time. But—so, I was not registered for, I

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think, maybe two years. So, I was just living off whoever can give me some food. So—but it was okay. But

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finally we got m-my family got me registered. My–my parents—I want to say they–they're strict, but

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they're not overly strict. They're more strict with my–my sister than me because I was a younger one. And I was sick a lot, actually.

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I had a childhood asthma while I was little. Really severe kinds—it was affect me a lot for–for–for–for–for a long time. I constantly went to hospital like at night when I

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couldn't breathe. So, my mom took care of me a lot. And I was sick a lot. I spent a lot of time actually not going to school because I was sick half the week. I couldn't.

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Like, I live in—my family live in this because we lived with the military. So, we have our own residence. It's very close to their working place.

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So, I basically go to their working hospital a lot, just, you know, because I need medical treatment. So, my–my parents were not very strict with me because of that. I think part of the reasons—actually,

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my–my parents were not strict with me at all. It's not like they let me to do whatever. But I think the most important reason is they just wanted me to–to live—to survive my childhood.

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So, yes. So, it was like that. And how would you say growing up with asthma—how did that affect your childhood? Like, did it interfere with your friendships or

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your—I guess it did influence your familial relationships. [JL: Yes.] I guess if you—if you would like to go into more detail about that. Yeah, definitely. I think childhood asthma isolated me a lot

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from school, from friends and also from my–my sister because I was sick a lot. I was with my mom for the—for–for most of the time. And then my sister was kind of like forced to be more

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in-independent than-than I was at a much younger age. And because I didn't go to school a lot, I was also more isolated from, you know, school friends, teachers. Yeah. Looking back, it—yeah, it

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impacted me a lot. But–but I had all the freedom in the world to do whatever I want while I'm not battling against this–this disease. And as a child, what kind of hobbies would you pursue in that free

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time that you have? Yeah. I like to read and–and I liked drawing a lot, so I actually wanted to be a professional artist up until

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like high school. And what changed? Why did you end up giving up [JL: Okay, so—] becoming an artist? Yeah, I actually talked with my daughter a lot about this.

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My daughter rea—also loves art–arts and she also lo–loves drawing. But, it was a major decision, actually, for me not going that route at that time. I was a teenager already.

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I just—after so—some years spending on, you know, arts and getting to know other people doing arts. And I saw—I mean, I learned a lot. I—it was like—later I–I feel like it

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was like doing research. Like that's how I started to feel like what research is like. It's like you're in this darkness and you try to figure out what you want to do. So, that–that—from that perspective, I mean,

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doing arts and doing research is not very different. But I think I made that decision when I was about, I think, 16. Because I feel like I could be a better

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something or—for personal—of something than be an artist. I feel like my—yeah, I feel like I have some talents, but I feel like I could be better at something else.

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Would you say your schooling influenced this decision, like your high school or middle school education or I guess how did your early schooling point you in that direction? I guess.

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I'm not sure about schooling, but my parents, their-their style of treating me, like doing whatever I-I want to, help me. Because they actually—they didn't have a lot of expectation for me to do.

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They didn't really require me to like, for example, go into college. They didn't—they didn't think that's important for me because for-for me, they just wanted me to be happy. You can say that's–that's not very high expectation.

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It's kind of, you know, not the norm that usually people, I think—parents want their kids to go to college. But for me, because I suffer so much with my childhood disease and I—they didn't really care about that, so they just wanted me to be

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happy. And so that definitely gave me the freedom to do whatever I want and I–I dare to try, I dared to fail. So yeah, that–that–that–that and also I think I was a little thinker when I was even very,

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very young age. I had all the time in the world not going to school and spend my time in hospital bed and to think about the things that I wonder about. [KS: I see.] So yeah, so I like—I like to think, I like—I like to, you know, think about the things,

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you know, observe people around me. I liked to think about why this is happening, although a lot of time I didn't have the answer, but I want—I like to do that even these days. So, yeah–yeah.

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I think that after so much thinking, finally I came to my own conclusion. This is the best thing for myself at that point. I see. And was there like a favorite subject or–or area of, I guess, research—or I guess not research,

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but more like–like a subject that you liked during these early days? Yeah, when I was little, I wasn't sure, but I feel like the–the—okay, so my dad introduced me English when I was six.

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So, my dad went to Shanghai for his professional development opportunity, and he spent, I think, three years in a college there—just advance his training—and he brought back some English

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learning materials like cassettes and books. And so, they're English songs. And my dad told my sister and me and say, you know, you can try to learn some English.

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This is fun. The little girl sing in English. So, that's how I started to be interested in English. And my dad could—you can say my dad was my first English teacher in that way.

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But I learned from the cassette a lot. I–I sang with the song. So that was the earliest exposure. And—but when I was in high school, I really liked

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history. Yeah. So that's something because there's–there's so many things—so many fascinating things. We learn world history, we learn Chinese history and ancient history, contemporary history, recent history.

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And so, yeah, there's so many stories and things to wonder about. So yeah, that's the subject I like. Of course I also like math. Not very interested in physics.

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Yeah–yeah. Me neither. So, I guess, you said you were born in 1976? 77.

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77. Okay. So when—so during your early childhood for you—what was the political climate in China like, or were you affected by that?

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So, China had this open door policy starting around the time I was born. I was not very much aware of the changes because I didn't know what was before I was born. And as a child I—but I remember

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people were much poorer at that time and—yeah, well, we always—I mean food—we always have food—had food to eat. But buying like new things usually is a little bit more difficult. I remember people

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were a–also much nicer at that time than these days. Or closer too. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And then, so when did you immigrate to

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the US? After college. So I graduated in 2000, in July. And in August I came here. Okay. And then— [JL: Yeah.] Yeah.

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So I read on your resume that you graduated in economics at Nankai. [JL: Yes, yes, yes, yes.] So, I guess, what inspired you to attend Nankai University specifically for undergrad?

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Okay, so–so–so that university is one of the most prestigious universities in China, is in another city in north—is–is close to–to–to Beijing but is in Tianjin.

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One of the most famous person that is affiliated with that university is, uh, is Zhou Enlai. I don't know whether you know this name. He is—he was the first prime minister

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of China. So, yeah, I was inspired by him because, you know, he was—I mean—if you go—if now—even nowadays, if you go to China and ask young people about this–this

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person Zhou Enlai, and I'll say 90% of the young people even today would consider him to be a very–a great figure and person of inspiration because of what he has done.

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So I–I—yeah, economics. To be honest, I wanted to major in history, but my–my dad and my sister at that time was already a–a college student. They both think at that time—they thought being

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a history major is gonna—it's gonna leave me a very difficult career path. And so they say, you know what?

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Because, you know, China has–has been open, you know, had this open door policy since the time I was born. At that time, it was like economy was developing. Why don't you learn something more useful or like more practical or,

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you know, less so—okay, whatever. I didn't really know what economist does. But–but it's part of social sciences, and I think it's not that, I mean, it's–it's not that far from history.

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I mean—I mean, it's not like physics or chemistry. So I said, okay, I'll do that. If you were able to go back, would you have pursued history or would you have stuck with your decision to pursue economics?

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I–I don't know. I actually honestly don't know. I may even choose another major because I–I have always been interested in so many things. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not sure.

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That's great. Yeah, that's great. So, I guess, while you were at Nankai, did you have, like, any significant experiences or any memories that you still hold to this day?

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Well, in–in univer—in the—I think I–I met some of the—my best friends at that time in the university. I think that was the first time I feel like I was closely

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related to a group of people. Because–because of my childhood disease, I was not able to make very strong connections with my school friends in high school.

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People are all, like, just learning from college. I'm studying really hard, and I didn't have time to really have fun and making friends. So I think during college—during college years—that was the first time I made some

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strong connections with—I made some best friends and nowadays I still contact—have contact with them. They're all over the world. And that experience definitely shaped my–my personalities a

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lot, my experiences, and yeah. Good. That's good. So when did you—When did your asthma get better, or was it [JL: Yeah.] significantly better once you entered college?

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No. I—well, I got better in my middle school years, but—because a lot—yeah, because I didn't know how to make friends at that time. I mean, people learn usually in elementary school,

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right? I didn't have a chance to learn. So, I start to learn that in middle school. So it's kind of late really make good—I mean. Yeah. So anyway, so I really learned that in–in college.

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I want to say like, I got better at it. I got really bet—better at it. That's good. That's good. So ...

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okay. I think I disconnected for a short second, but. [JL: Hello?] Hello. [JL: Oh, yeah.] Okay. Okay. I think I can hear you.

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Okay. [JL: Okay.] So— I think it's my internet connection for some reason. Oh, it's okay. Okay. I think. It's good. I think.

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So–so I know you are a teaching professor at Rice right now. Would you—did you expect that coming out of Nankai? Did you know that you wanted to be one or—

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Yeah, I'm not teaching professor. I'm actually—I have two titles. One is quantitative methodologist, and another is adjunct associate professor. So, I have this hybrid appointments.

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No, I didn't expect any of that coming out of college. I didn't know what I was gonna do. I only knew that I wanted to learn more. That's my—I mean, I have this intellectual curiosity to learn

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more and I feel like I—my sister also influenced me a lot. She has been—I mean, she was so good. I mean, she went to the best university in China, and then right after university, she came to U.S.

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to study. She majored in mathematics. And she's the–the hard core person in the family. And I think because my parents were so strict and she

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just—yeah, but–but she influenced me in college and–and so I feel like, okay, maybe I also wanted to go to study abroad for my graduate school because, yeah, I feel like it's always good to see the

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world. And because I have so many questions in my head, it's good for me. It's a natural decision. So I applied for two majors. I applied for economics and I also applied

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for sociology. I got offers for both majors and in different universities. I finally decided to go to A&M for my sociology major. One reason is because my sister was there already. [KS: Ah, I see.] Yeah, she was there for her master's,

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actually. By the time I arrived, she was about to leave. [KS: I see.] Yeah, she went to another place for her PhD, which I did the same thing later. So, I guess, was your primary motivation to go

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to Texas A&M because of your sister, or were there other m-motivations behind that as well? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And–and par—also I—also because I–I like—at that time,

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I feel like I wanted to do sociology better, more than economics, because when I was in my senior year, maybe third year, I–I–I sat in some sociology classes. I–I really liked sociology.

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I feel like it's much broader than economics. And so A&M sociology. Yeah, there are people doing things like I was interested, so I decided to go. And also because my sister,

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she just said, yeah, come here, take over my furniture. I see. Would you say—would you say that your relationship with your sister got closer over the years? 'Cause I remember [JL: Yeah.] you mentioning before— [JL: Yeah.] the disease—

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Yeah, yeah. Finally I was not sick anymore. Yeah, that's good. I also noticed that you pursued a master's in statistics at UT Austin. Could you explain why you decided to do

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this [JL: Yeah.], and what were your motivations behind that as well? Yeah. So after I finished my sociology master's in A&M, I started working. I don't know whether it's indicated anywhere in my CV. Probably not.

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Maybe there is place I indicated, depending on which version of CV you got. I worked as a research associate in one of the research companies in Austin. I work as a—basically help with

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analysis. So–so, it's a education psychology kind of research. So, they use a lot of quantitative research. That's where I got really interested in knowing more about quantitative

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research, social sciences, and all that. That's—I worked there for two years, and then I feel like I want to go back to a graduate program for a PhD. And when I was in the graduate program, I–I–I actually got a

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lot of courses waived because I had a master's in sociology already and I—but I took many courses in different areas. And–and I feel like I wanted to learn more about statistics. I feel like I always have—there's so many

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interests. And that's one of things like I like, so I–I–I–I–I took a lot of courses in statistics and at one point the people there just say, Why don't you just get a master's? If you take this 2 or 3

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additional courses, actually you can get a master's. I was like, okay, why not? It's not that difficult, right? Yeah, but actually it turned out I took one of the most difficult

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courses in my life for that master's in statistics because there's a course called mathematical statistics. Everything is about proving. And yeah, it was difficult for a whole year, actually.

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I was thinking about wanting to quit, but finally I—yeah, I got it and feel like, okay, at that time I am going to get a master's in statistics. So that's, that's, yeah, that's how it happened.

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Would you say that your master's in statistics helped you in your car—in your career? Yes, definitely. It opened man—more doors for me because that training is very solid.

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As a sociologist, we have relatively limited training in quantitative analysis and in statistics we have more foundational training like math probabilities and proving things like that.

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So yeah, it definitely helped a lot. Yeah. I—actually nowadays I—one of my major duties is to–to work with graduate students to help the–the quantitative training in the department to provide research support about their quantitative

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projects. Going from, you know, starting from looking for a data set and analysis research design, and to up to writing the paper R&R and get–getting things published. Yeah.

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And then to finish our section of your education, I guess, why did you pursue a—why did you decide to pursue a doctorate in sociology at Texas A&M? [JL: Oh.] Or at UT Austin?

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UT Austin. Yeah–yeah. So I—when I was working as a research associate, I was—the people who I worked with were—they were mostly just PhDs. They—I feel like after working there for a couple of years,

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I feel like I can—I can get a PhD too. I feel like it's not that difficult, and PhDs are not that hard. When I was in A&M, I was—I experienced some kind of—I mean, pretty bad culture shocks going from

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China to U.S. and as international student, it was kind of difficult. But after some time adjust–adjustment working in UT Austin—in Austin, I decided to apply for UT

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Austin because it's really close. That was actually the only graduate program I applied for, and I got accepted and yeah, with funding and all that, I just—I started my PhD.

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Do you have any memorable experiences at UT Austin, or professors, or— Yeah, PhD is definitely hard. Yeah, it's hard. It's a very long too.

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And I can tell you—a lot of people I–I knew there they–they at one point or another, they wanted to quit. Many people.

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Some people quit. Some people like after they wanted to quit, they–they–they–they kept going. I mean, it doesn't mean that you—I mean, it's hard. It was hard writing a proposal for dissertation proposal.

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It was hard finding a good mentor. It was hard. I change my mentor three times. I have three different mentors. So it—because I have three different versions of my

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proposal. And so it was hard. Yeah. I see. So you did mention the culture shock you experienced at Texas A&M. Could you expand on that a little?

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Were there like, discrimination that you faced when you arrived in–in the U.S. or any other sorts of challenges? At A&M it was just overall like confusion, like transition

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from the China to U.S., and also College Station is–is—it's not like a metropolitan, right? It's–it's quite different. It also feels like a social isolation as well.

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My English was–was just okay. I mean, and also school—the–the way like the classroom works is very different here than-than China. So, it was very difficult.

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And I don't—I didn't even know where to look for help, or whether I—I'm sure I needed to help. I needed help, but I–I didn't know who to talk to. Like the–the strong connections I just learned in to-to

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develop in college. Suddenly all of it was all gone—like it was—so I feel like–like I had to start from, like, scratch again. [KS: Yeah.] It was really difficult.

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It was very, very difficult. And a lot of times you don't even—you didn't even know how to articulate that. You didn't have the language to express yourself very well. So—and also the people you hang out the most are other

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fellow international students. They're not better than you. So, it's—it was really difficult, I think, at the beginning. How did it get better over time?

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Did you find the community that was able to help, or did you just—with time it got better or— Yeah, it–it was the time—it got better. I

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think things got much better when I started to work, so, and when I started work, I have this—it's a very small company. Yeah. So I–I, y'know, I see those people every day.

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I–I work like eight hours a day, so I have to, I mean, I had to communicate with them and with a lot of things and had to socialize with them, you know, with a lot of—a lot of times. And meeting with them, going to party with them,

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you know, have celebration with them, and just, you know, that helped. It was just—it was—it was not—I mean, it was not easy at the beginning, but it got better.

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Great, that's good. I didn't eat cheese before that. I start to eat cheese after that. I did. Yeah, I didn't—I didn't like—I did—I didn't—I didn't like cheese

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before I started working. And what–what inspired you to start eating cheese? There were so many opportunities to eat cheese. I don't know. I–I'm not picky eater at all.

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I was just not used to—when there enough exposure, I just try and finally I feel like oh I like—I like it. It's like a blue cheese. Do you still like cheese?

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Do you still like to eat cheese nowadays? Oh, I love cheese. I eat way too much cheese these days. Okay. What else? So, I guess I will—we'll now move into, like, your career and

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community section. So, if you could provide a—provide a brief timeline of your professional experiences and tell how they evolved over time? Yeah, I—after I finished my PhD in

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2011, I started my postdoc in Baylor University at Waco. I did my postdoc until 2014—end of

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2014. And I started to work at Rice in—at beginning of 2015 in my current position. Yeah. I've been with Rice since then. I see. And what did you do at Baylor as a postdoc?

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I was a postdoc researcher working on some projects about rural America—social inequality studies. So, the projects involved—different projects.

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One–one project I remember is about rural America—the inequality of financial institutions. And-and another project is about diabetes—inequality in diabetes across U.S.

00:35:35.370 - 00:35:51.140

regions—things like that. So, that's a much broader focus of research. I had this opportunity to learn about that. I feel like it's-it's different from what I did in

00:35:51.650 - 00:36:08.330

graduate school because I did more about health. But one of the projects is about health. But–but this–this–this postdoc research opportunity just help me learn more about like the bigger pictures.

00:36:08.570 - 00:36:22.900

It was very interesting. I learned also spatial statistics. Yeah, I got to know my mentor at that time. He was wonderful, and I learned so much from him.

00:36:22.900 - 00:36:37.950

Dr. Charles Tolbert. Yeah. Yeah, so. That's good. Did you go to Waco knowing that you would be working within these fields,

00:36:37.950 - 00:36:53.550

like rural communities specifically, or did you just happen to end up— Oh, I knew. I–I knew about the—about the opportunities because we just—we didn't really do the fieldwork. We just did—we're–we're quantitative researchers.

00:36:53.550 - 00:37:06.720

We just work with the data. I knew—I knew about that. I mean, in sociology, things are all connected. That's—I feel like a new research direction is

00:37:06.720 - 00:37:20.220

always a great opportunity to learn more. So, I embrace that. Great. It's always good to hear. So, I guess what brought you to Rice

00:37:20.220 - 00:37:36.190

or specifically Houston, I guess? So, okay. So this position was first posted when I was in graduate school, so I actually applied for it when I was in graduate school. I was in Rice for

00:37:36.190 - 00:37:52.810

interview when I was in graduate school before–before I graduated with my PhD. I got shortlisted. I was number two, so I got declined the first time and I went to was my PhD. And then I––no, no, when–when I graduates my

00:37:53.260 - 00:38:11.410

PhD, I went to my postdoc. So while I was in my postdoc, I––when my postdoc was about to end, the person whoever got hired in this position quit. So they–they want to hire another person to–to fill the

00:38:11.410 - 00:38:27.330

position. So I actually didn't know that. I didn't know that. But, it was brought to my attention by my mentor, so, yeah, so I applied for it again and I got it.

00:38:27.780 - 00:38:45.060

That's great. People still remember me. So, I guess when and how did you decide to––like, why did you want to become an active professor at

00:38:45.060 - 00:39:00.930

Rice? Well, so this position, the first time–the first time I started, it was the quantitative methodologist only. And later, it got developed into this hybrid appointment

00:39:00.930 - 00:39:17.100

because the professor's faculty position allows me for more freedom to pursue my own interest, to collaborate with faculty members and explore my own interests.

00:39:17.100 - 00:39:32.670

So that fits me very well. And I have been always having this problem of having too many interests. So it is––so I like teaching too, so teaching and research together is great.

00:39:34.080 - 00:39:48.890

And I guess what gives you the most satisfaction when you're teaching or doing research? Or you can answer those two separately, I guess. Oh, yeah. For teaching, it's interesting because when I

00:39:48.890 - 00:40:08.990

was in–when I was in college or, I mean, when I was in graduate school, I wasn't sure I wanted to be a teacher because I feel like it's a lot to be a teacher, and I wasn't sure I wanted to talk

00:40:08.990 - 00:40:24.610

to people all–all day long. So, I knew I wanted to do research. After I started working as a research associate, I liked the process. I like to figure things out.

00:40:24.620 - 00:40:39.770

I like to be able to show people the findings that I have from my investigation. So I like that. But I wasn't sure about being a teacher, but when I was in postdoc, my mentor,

00:40:40.040 - 00:40:54.770

I mean, he–he now retired. He was––he's a veteran teacher. He–professor–he's very good teacher and professor.

00:40:54.770 - 00:41:09.670

He is very good mentor. And he said–he said this to me, he said, "Jing, you know–you know, you can be a teacher as good as anybody else." So and I

00:41:09.670 - 00:41:27.260

said, "I'm not sure I want to do that." And–and–and he said this to me. He said "some people thinks–some people think they–they love teaching, but after three years, they burn out.

00:41:28.100 - 00:41:42.550

But some people think they–they don't like teaching, but after they start teaching, they like teaching." And he said, "You haven't tried. How did you know?" I was like, "Yeah, he's right." I never really tried to teach.

00:41:42.560 - 00:41:55.520

So this position has teaching requirement, and that's how I started teaching. The first class I–I mean, I taught in graduate school, but only here and there.

00:41:55.520 - 00:42:13.790

Not like a semester long, only like as a TA or like short course instructors, but never as a semester long, and all that. And later I realized I may have a talent for as a teacher because I–I haven't––I mean, I didn't really spend a lot of time thinking

00:42:13.790 - 00:42:30.110

about what to teach. I just think about how I learn things, like process of learning things. So and in this way I design a course, it's pretty natural for me to design a syllabus. It does not take me a lot of time.

00:42:30.350 - 00:42:44.990

I––so yeah. I mean, I think I'm the second kind of person my mentor described. That's good. That's great. And as for research, what–what drives you to pursue your research

00:42:44.990 - 00:42:58.820

interests? Yeah. So my research when I was in graduate school, I studied immigration and intersection with health. I told you I have three versions of proposals.

00:42:58.820 - 00:43:15.500

So at first, I wanted to study mental health of immigrants. It's really difficult to study, especially used methods that I'm usually familiar with, like quantitative research. And the measurements are not very good.

00:43:15.530 - 00:43:28.700

The data sets are not very good. So I––the second version I changed that to mental health combined with physical health. And the third version was physical health only. So that's my dissertation.

00:43:29.960 - 00:43:45.260

So pretty much give up on mental health part. It's very hard to measure like especially at population level. At the time, the data was not very great, but that's––but I'm still interested in that. Nowadays I still want to do something about mental health.

00:43:45.260 - 00:44:03.120

Actually, nowadays I'm more thinking about Asian youth mental health. This is something I've been thinking for a while but haven't done anything yet. I've been reading, I've been thinking about it, but that–that is something I'm still interested.

00:44:03.120 - 00:44:17.420

And I have also done things all intersection with immigration, education, housing, work. Yeah.

00:44:17.630 - 00:44:36.810

So when you study these––your––when you pursue, like, your work in immigration, do you find that your methodology differs when you

00:44:36.810 - 00:44:54.060

study Asian American/Pacific Islander households versus non AAPI communities? Yes, very different because––so the AAPI communities are much smaller. So that's why it's very––it's kind of

00:44:54.060 - 00:45:07.080

difficult to study. Like this is a small category. It's the data quality. A lot of times it's not great. You see more qualitative research because it's

00:45:07.080 - 00:45:19.230

easier to conduct qualitative research. Let's go there and talk to people, just a handful of people. You have a paper, but because I'm a demographer, I'm a sociologist, but I'm also trained as a demograph-demographer.

00:45:19.230 - 00:45:32.000

We use, like, large dataset to map out, like, patterns and variations. So that's really––that I really need a good quality data to be able to focus on Asian-Americans.

00:45:33.790 - 00:45:51.520

Yeah. But suddenly I had, yeah––but when I was doing postdoc, I had my dissertation twisted and changed and revised million times to get published only on Asian Americans. So yeah, because I think

00:45:51.520 - 00:46:06.190

Asian Americans are understudied. So yeah. That's good. So, as a faculty, as of the Department of Sociology, do you plan on

00:46:06.190 - 00:46:22.710

teaching courses more in line with your specialty concerning racial ethnicity and immigration and social demography? Yes. So nowadays I'm mostly focused on the quantitative training of the department.

00:46:23.490 - 00:46:43.310

I also teach undergrads also focus on the quantitative training. But my I–I–I have been––you know what? And you may know this actually, our graduate students developed the first Asian

00:46:43.310 - 00:46:56.270

sociology of Asian Americans last semester. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Our PhD students, they are––they–they spoke.

00:46:56.840 - 00:47:12.590

They had their voice heard. So that was the first Asian American sociology class. And they, I was told they––it was really well received and there were a

00:47:12.590 - 00:47:30.090

lot of interest. And I––so now I started to talk with my department about, you know, focusing on Asian-Americans. I also have a research group with graduate students,

00:47:30.090 - 00:47:45.470

and yeah, maybe one day I'll be able to do something about that. Yeah, that'd be great. So as––so in your career as a teacher and researcher, what are the

00:47:45.470 - 00:48:06.680

most––have you faced any discrimination or any sorts of challenges in academia or–or just teaching in general? Not as a teacher or researcher at Rice, but when I was in graduate school at UT Austin, definitely,

00:48:06.680 - 00:48:23.180

yes. As an international student, I experienced discrimination from actually one of my professors. Yeah. It was very, how to say, traumatizing experience.

00:48:23.630 - 00:48:41.410

It was totally imbalance of power. Yeah. Yeah, it was very difficult. How were you able to overcome that situation? So, I overcame that situation by writing a letter

00:48:41.410 - 00:48:53.330

of a grievance against her. Yeah. And I'm guessing that was successful. Was that successful? I think that helped me a lot.

00:48:53.350 - 00:49:08.680

Yeah. You know, she was a tenured professor, so nothing can really do anything. And also, it's only my words against her words. But, it was on her record as well as on mine.

00:49:11.650 - 00:49:32.250

I see. So, going back a little bit, you've been invited to talk to many–many events about––you've been invited to many events to talk about discrimination

00:49:32.250 - 00:49:48.660

and racism and Asian American education and second general-second generation ethnic issues. Have you observed any differences between first generation and second generation Asians when faced with anti-Asian sentiments?

00:49:49.730 - 00:50:09.080

Yes, definitely. I just––I mean, I don't have research about this, but I do have personal experiences and my observation about this. First generation Asian Americans tend to be more silent about discrimination.

00:50:09.080 - 00:50:24.060

Like my experience was an exception. Like I was so vocal and I actually asked help from my American friends and to write that letter.

00:50:24.060 - 00:50:40.830

And I try to talk to other international students and also American students about similar experiences. But-but I can tell you that at that time my Asian PhD

00:50:41.100 - 00:50:56.610

classmates, like, were not very, like, vocal, although he also had similar experience. He didn't file a grievance letter. But yeah, they tend to be more silent about this

00:50:56.610 - 00:51:11.820

and they tend to think more about what they did wrong instead of, you know, think about this two sides, right? You may do something wrong, but you don't deserve that. You don't deserve that. Even you did something wrong.

00:51:12.360 - 00:51:28.920

So the second generation tend to be more sensitive about this. I think this is because they're more racialized and they start to realize people look different, behave different,

00:51:28.920 - 00:51:47.220

and be considered different when they're at a very young age. Yeah. So they're more sensitive about this. Yeah. And do you think it's important for first generations Asians to become more active in this

00:51:47.220 - 00:51:58.660

respect? Yeah, I do think so. I think they need to understand that, I

00:51:58.660 - 00:52:13.820

mean, it's not a weakness to to tell people you're discriminated against. Yeah. And also, you can communicate with people about that.

00:52:13.830 - 00:52:27.510

It's not–it's not shameful. Yeah Yeah, I think that's important. Yeah. Also––and this is going to go on a different tangent,

00:52:27.510 - 00:52:43.710

but, other than professional affiliations, how have you been involved in the Asian-American community activities? Do you think your background in sociology may contribute to the Asian-American community in any way?

00:52:43.890 - 00:53:02.520

Yes. I've been involved in some community activism about different things, mostly first generation Asian-Americans, because they––a lot of them work in STEM fields or they don't have, I mean, they

00:53:02.520 - 00:53:18.580

actually––most of them don't have––don't even know people who–who–who, you know, who are in social sciences or–or–or unders-understand the process better. I mean, I–I'm not saying I'm better than them.

00:53:18.580 - 00:53:34.190

It's just because my training helped me understand a little bit better, maybe see a little bit clearer than them. That's what we do. We study the society. But––so there are a lot of misunderstanding.

00:53:34.670 - 00:53:52.550

I try to–I try to participate in some kind of, you know, sometimes it's a seminar or, like, online meetings and try to, like, have a conversation to–to––about about things like

00:53:52.550 - 00:54:09.470

discrimination, racism, how to understand, you know–you know, the–the–the different–different ideas between or thinking, like, behaviors between first generation and second generation Americans. And it can be, you know, it can have,

00:54:09.470 - 00:54:23.810

like, family conflicts, different perspectives. Also–also bigger pictures like how to think about China and US, like, tensions right now. Yeah, things like that.

00:54:24.740 - 00:54:45.750

I feel like a lot of things can be done with a sociology background. That's good. So moving on from the career to more of your personal and family life, can you tell us about your family? Do––I think you mentioned that you had a daughter before?

00:54:45.780 - 00:55:08.850

So could you––do you have––who else do you live with, or is there any other significant individuals? Yeah, I'm married. I've been married since 20-2009. So, I have two kids. My daughter

00:55:08.850 - 00:55:24.840

is 13. My son is 9. Youth mental health is something that I have been thinking about because of her. Yeah, it's–it's–it's, I mean,

00:55:24.840 - 00:55:39.170

mental health nowadays is a big issue for everybody. But I think for Asian youth, I think it's especially vulnerable. Yeah, this is something I have been thinking about for a while.

00:55:41.030 - 00:55:55.760

Yeah, I think that's a really important topic to address, especially now. Like, I think exposure to, like, internet and, like, social media has really changed a lot of things.

00:55:56.430 - 00:56:15.230

So I think an emphasis on youth mental health is really important and should be better addressed in the future. So, how and when did you meet your spouse?

00:56:16.220 - 00:56:27.290

Oh, yeah. My husband, Matthew. That's his name. We met in Austin. Yeah, we met in Austin. We got married in Austin, too.

00:56:28.670 - 00:56:40.750

Was this–was this during your–– PhD. [KS: PhD? Ok.] Yeah. And did you meet through school or–– No, actually, we met out of school.

00:56:41.160 - 00:56:59.080

So I–I started to go dancing when I was in PhD. I like–I like–I like salsa. So, in one event, I got to know a person called

00:56:59.080 - 00:57:17.500

Anthony. So he–he–he is a friend of Matthew, my husband. So one day we just met in his party, Anthony's party. So, yeah, that's how we got to know each other. At that time, he thought I was Vietnamese and I thought he

00:57:17.500 - 00:57:36.100

was from Hong Kong. So, yeah, but he actually was born in Taiwan. I see. So what sort of values and principles are you instilling or did you instill in your children for their upbringing?

00:57:36.340 - 00:57:53.230

Yeah, I think, one thing is work ethics. I–I stress that a lot. I told them it's not important for you to compare to others, but you need to have expectation for yourself.

00:57:54.010 - 00:58:07.690

You need to compete with yourself. So you want to do better. Always do your best. And don't waste time. And another thing: I want them to be a free thinker.

00:58:08.140 - 00:58:24.040

I want them to think out of the box. I want them to, not so much, you know, impact by peer pressure or even sometimes pressure from me. Or, you know, I want them to read books, but I don't want them to be

00:58:24.040 - 00:58:40.290

boxed into whatever is in those books. So those two things I want to––yeah, yeah, to be kind. Yeah. Not a lot of things. I don't think I'm a typical, very strict, like just looking at

00:58:40.310 - 00:58:58.280

GPA kind of parents. But I was told I was strict. I don't know. So as a parent––you mentioned the importance of youth mental health. So as a parent, how–how do

00:58:58.280 - 00:59:16.040

you, I mean, make your children's mental health––how do you improve your children's mental health? Yeah, I think it's different in different stage. When they're young, when they're like baby or elementary

00:59:16.040 - 00:59:30.410

school, maybe, you––the only thing you want––I mean, you need to do is to just to love them. Like, you know, show them how much you care about them. But when I become older, like middle school,

00:59:30.410 - 00:59:47.090

high school, these things become a little bit complicated. You need to give them, like, space and freedom. And, yeah, allow them to make mistakes. If they don't listen to you and you have to be okay with it.

00:59:49.520 - 01:00:07.790

And because, I mean, yeah, that's how they have their own individual identity, I guess. So a lot of times, you just be there. I think the best thing you can do going forward, I mean, when the children become older, is to be there for

01:00:07.790 - 01:00:24.650

them. Like, yeah, do things with them and do not be judgmental. But it doesn't mean you–you can't tell them what you think is correct. It's just in a way that it's, like, more like talking with a friend, I think, yeah, than as a, you know, authority

01:00:24.680 - 01:00:43.490

figure and that's not going to work. So–so I guess making time for them is really important. [JL: Yeah.] Yeah. So in that, in that respect,

01:00:43.640 - 01:00:57.590

how do you maintain a good work life balance? Like how do you maintain being close to your family while still working in academia? It's really hard. I think work life balance is always hard.

01:00:57.770 - 01:01:16.150

It's hard for everyone if you want a good career and also a good family. I think it's more––it's harder for women. And so but the good thing about this, my job is I have more flexibility than people, for example, you know,

01:01:16.160 - 01:01:33.500

have to sit in the office for eight hours. So a lot of times I–I get–get up early to work on things before they get up or I work on things when they go to bed. So when they're home, I try to be

01:01:33.500 - 01:01:48.380

with them, although they're more independent right now. But it was very important when they were little, they wanted me to play with them, to watch TV with them, you know–you know, I cook for them. Yeah, but nowadays they become more independent.

01:01:48.380 - 01:02:04.190

But I still want to be with them, as much as they need me. Yeah. Help them with homework and spend time with them. Yeah. I think that's really important.

01:02:04.200 - 01:02:19.250

For a child as a parent and a child. Yeah. Moving more towards to our next session––next section on identity, how would you identify yourself ethnically?

01:02:21.070 - 01:02:32.980

I'm Chinese. I'm Asian-American. Yeah. Great. So, I guess how has your Chinese identity influenced your life decisions about maybe, like,

01:02:32.980 - 01:02:52.760

education, marriage, or career choices? I think, as––well as Chinese, my cultural roots are basically three philosophies like Buddhism, Taoism and

01:02:53.570 - 01:03:06.050

Confucianism all combined. So there are a lot of––yeah, like–like I really––I actually, I read a lot of philosophies, like Chinese philosophies.

01:03:06.050 - 01:03:20.100

I read a lot of those scripts about from these three traditions. They influenced me a lot. Yeah. For example, I'm a–I'm a–I'm a hardcore environmentalist.

01:03:20.340 - 01:03:33.810

Yeah. So, in my family, they all know that I compost the food waste, and I refuse straws in the restaurant. I refuse plastic bags.

01:03:33.810 - 01:03:50.130

I always bring my own bags, and I try to bring my own food containers if I remember. I try to do that more. I bring my own chopsticks and spoons and forks––spoons and forks in my bag, if I go out to eat,

01:03:51.390 - 01:04:07.440

I–I, yeah, I like–I like gardening. I like to, although I'm not very good at, you know, but I try every spring I try. My daughter is influenced a lot by this, and

01:04:07.440 - 01:04:26.760

she's–she's–she's a very environmentalist, too. Yeah. But yeah, these days, I think everybody should be. Yeah. I think climate change has been really bad these last few years. [JL: Yeah.] So how important is it, or was

01:04:26.760 - 01:04:41.780

it to educate your children on your own ethnic heritage while raising them? My both of my kids go to Mandarin–Mandarin–Mandarin Immersion Magnet School.

01:04:41.780 - 01:04:59.030

I don't know whether you know that. It's a–it's a public school in HISD, but they actually have––they teach Chinese half day Chinese half day English in elementary school. In middle school is a little bit different. So my kids actually can read,

01:04:59.030 - 01:05:15.350

write and–and speak Chinese very well. They speak Chinese at home with me, too. And they ask them to speak Chinese to each other. Sometimes they don't. But many times upon my request,

01:05:15.350 - 01:05:31.910

they will. Yeah. My daughter actually can write really good Chinese. So that's the language part. But I try to also teach them the philo-philosophies I learned from my cultural roots.

01:05:34.000 - 01:05:44.890

I–I started to teach my daughter much earlier, but she didn't understand. But nowadays she gets–she gets started to get it. Yeah, she's already 13.

01:05:44.890 - 01:06:01.430

And sometimes I explain some very complex philosophy ideas-philosophical ideas to her and she underst––she gets it. So, and I think that's good. Yeah, that's quite impressive.

01:06:01.430 - 01:06:21.210

So, in your opinion, how important is it for Asian Americans to be cognizant of social demography and social stratification in the US? Yeah, like I said, I think the second generation

01:06:22.020 - 01:06:39.580

in general, they understand this better. But–but because they're more racialized, the downside is that they––the downside of that, I think, is it can play–it can play into their self esteem.

01:06:40.240 - 01:06:58.870

Okay. But–but the first generation, they tend to be more ignorant of that. They tend to more, like––their–their point of reference tend to be not the current US society.

01:06:58.870 - 01:07:15.460

They they may not have a good understanding of what's going on actually the big picture. And that's because their immigration background, their, you know, their, you know, their education and, you know, the kind of, you know, working environment they have.

01:07:15.490 - 01:07:26.500

For example, if they work in high tech, they may not know much about, you know–you know–you know, the mass incarceration that black people are experiencing. Right. Things like that.

01:07:27.070 - 01:07:44.390

It's really important for, I think, for people to understand what kind of society we're living into and what role we all play. And so it's––I think it's good to the listing––I mean, the thing is that at least it's good for your mental health to know

01:07:44.390 - 01:08:00.830

where you are. Right. To have a clear picture of how things are working around you. Yeah. And if they have––if this––if–if–if–if the first generation Asian Americans

01:08:00.830 - 01:08:17.480

have kids and it's also easier to communicate with your kids. Yeah. So that's what––I think the end goal––I have I've been to some–some–some online seminars about Asian American second generation mental health.

01:08:17.480 - 01:08:33.380

And they're––one of the–the points that I think sometimes I try to understand or talk to them is that, you know, to actually, if you want to help with the youth mental health, you need to work on their parents.

01:08:33.380 - 01:08:47.110

Yeah. So–so this is one–one big family so but I think it helps. Yeah, definitely. We need that. We need more of that.

01:08:47.110 - 01:09:02.660

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what I can do. Sometimes I wonder. What–what would you say is the best way to still be inf–to be informed in these areas?

01:09:04.700 - 01:09:14.480

Stay current or be current in this area? For general? Yeah, just–just–just in general. [JL: In general?] General public.

01:09:14.810 - 01:09:32.870

For the general public to stay current about–about? Social demography and social stratification. Oh, yeah, I guess. I mean, I don't want to say reading news is the only way to get better educated

01:09:33.500 - 01:09:49.840

because news these days can be biased, I mean, depending on the source. I don't want to say it's the social media either because social media can be problematic. So yeah,

01:09:49.840 - 01:10:05.170

this is a big question of–of today. Like where do you get your knowledge from? Yeah. For me, actually, a lot of times, I think critical thinking is a really important skill for people to have.

01:10:05.170 - 01:10:24.040

And–and, yeah, so, it was, you know, AI and all that, of course. I mean, critical thinking is something you need to have to while you read news and when you–you're

01:10:24.040 - 01:10:42.760

in social media communicating with your friends and looking at all those TikTok videos. I also want to say this, this probably old thing, but read books. Yeah. Also don't believe everything, but read

01:10:42.760 - 01:10:59.560

because––especially high quality books. Yeah. I actually also think travel helps. I'm––I understand not everybody has the money, but I hope at least good books are relatively more accessible to

01:10:59.560 - 01:11:12.500

people. Yeah. I think when you read enough books, you start to have critical thinking. Like it just comes like, naturally. You have any books that you recommend?

01:11:15.290 - 01:11:28.390

I like to read philosophy books. It can be boring, but yeah, it can be boring. I like–I like to read history books.

01:11:28.390 - 01:11:45.670

Autobiographies. Yeah. Any ones in particular? Yeah, have this one. This is not––but this is more like social science study. But I really love this book.

01:11:46.060 - 01:12:01.780

I want to recommend this to you if you have a [inaudible]. "Asian Americans and the Spirit of Racial Capitalism." This is the one book that I came across last semester. Actually, I attended a workshop, not like a seminar,

01:12:01.810 - 01:12:16.780

like meeting with the author. And he's in Baylor. He's a––he's not a sociologist, but he's in theologist. He's a theologist. But he writes about Asian Americans

01:12:17.050 - 01:12:26.110

and the spirit of racial capitalism. I highly recommend this book. It has all––it has a lot of critical thinking, and it's about Asian Americans.

01:12:26.110 - 01:12:36.400

I'm sure you're interested. Yeah, I'll be sure to check it out. Yeah. I hope that the library has one copy. If not, we should request one copy.

01:12:36.930 - 01:12:56.210

Yeah, for sure. So if your children were to watch this interview in the future, what is the message you want to give to them? I hope they're––they grow up to be a brave, kind person. That is the most important thing,

01:12:56.720 - 01:13:09.560

I think, above anything else. Yeah. That's great. And when you think of yourself, what is something that you're most proud of and what do you hope your legacy to be?

01:13:14.700 - 01:13:33.170

I––what I'm most proud of. This is a really big question. I think I'm very proud of that I did not waste a lot of time or resources that the world has given

01:13:33.170 - 01:13:53.380

me. I did not make use all of them, but I try my best to take advantage of all the time and resources that–that that I was given. Yeah, I think I'm most proud of that.

01:13:54.340 - 01:14:08.890

That's good. Yeah. And your legacy? What do you hope for that? I hope, like, people can remember me as kind and–and brave.

01:14:10.570 - 01:14:20.530

That's great. Just like your children. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So before we conclude, is there anything else you'd like to share that we didn't cover?

01:14:22.570 - 01:14:31.480

I think that's it. It's a really interesting interview. That's great. I hope you enjoyed it. Yes, I did. Yeah.