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Today is May 26, 2023. My name is Ann Shi, and I am interviewing Mr. Zhang Jian-Jun for the Houston Asian American Archive. Thank you so much for taking our interview, Mr.

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Zhang. Thank you very much. Call me Jian-Jun or call me JJ simply. [AS: Yes. I will.] I'm very very honored to be interviewed, to talk with–with you about my–my life.

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Yeah, and we'll jump right in, JJ. So, to start, can you tell us when and where were you born? I was born in Shanghai, in China. 1955.

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Can you tell us a little bit about the household you grew up in and the first house, for example, that you grew up in? Well, yeah, it's a lovely when I was childhood. Before my age of 10 and my parents––both

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my parents have their nice job, and so our––we're living in the apartment near the Bund, and which is the—–lot of neighbors like doctors, engineering,

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business––I don't think it's business because that time should not have business. I think engineer, doctors, and–and some professors. So like a lot of them middle class or up middle class,

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the neighborhood. And then––so, yeah. Very, very lovely, calm, the way I've grown up. And when I say when I grew up, before the cultural revolution started.

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And how many siblings do you have? A total we have four. I was the youngest. And I have one brother and two sisters. And––yeah then, my brother when–when we're all grown up.

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That's a long time afterwards, and two of my sisters become doctors and my brother is an engineer. And I'm the artist. The only one from the family. I have no idea what's going on, what's happened,

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but only when I was childhood––when I was a kid, I–I always––because I always liked art. Because I remember in kindergarten, I think when I was four or five age, and the tutor asked the kids, I mean,

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very typical question, "So what is your dream when you're grown up––when you're growing up, and what kind of job or your–your profession?" I-I say, artist, the first. Second,

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a-a-astronomer, to search the sky, space. So, well, I––since-since when I was young, very little, I like art, like nature things, like I'll have a lot of pets

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and everything within the water like a fish, crab, shrimp, turtle [laughs]. And also I like grow–grow a lot of plants, trees, flowers. So that's very, very nice, calm time

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in my early–my early life. That's fascinating. Do you remember any specific childhood memories that triggered your dream back then as an artist? Well, I think––I have no idea.

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I think because when I was young, my––I have a health problem, so I always had a sick absence from kindergarten. So, my parents, that time, bought a lot of, like, illustration books.

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I like read. And–and then–then I just enjoyed all those pictures, and I tried to follow, to draw. And then one day, I think I was sick that day, I didn't went to the kindergarten.

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So I just singing songs, talking stories, and found a graphite to draw out the images in my mind on the whole wall up in my room. And I was so proud. I always thought––and until like a later evening I went

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out the–the building––outside the building, like, waiting for my parents come back. I would like a "Such a great job!" And boy, come back, they were so pissed because [laughs] I draw so much

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chaos. But, you know, there's still is like a lovely memories. So besides drawing or painting or enjoying nature, what were some of your childhood games that you play,

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say, with siblings or y-you'd play by yourself? I played with the neighbors. Some kids would grow up together in the same apart––like apartment buildings and, like, for instance,

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like, xiangqi, chess. And very beginning, there's a very––to Go––the Go, that's about very very low level. And yeah, I think–I think–I think that's–that's play the game, and also physical. Physical is the later, I've become very physical

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playing game, but when I was in childhood, I am on my health problems, so I don't––the doctors or my parents not allowed me to run out like crazy, you know, to play games. So, I'd always be, feel like, at home and then read

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and then draw. What were some of the values that your parents instilled in–in you when you were growing up? Like, did they expect you to become an engineer,

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doctor, and so on? My––when before 10, because my generation is very complicated, and when I was so little, young, so my parents did not really say you had to be,

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to grow up, become what, because I was too young. And they just, I remember, they say, whatever you study, well, just become a significant person. That's they always mention.

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And–and also, sometimes, the––like okay, I grew up in Shanghai, and that time, it's very dark. I talk about the city in night time. And also, it's poor because even my family, I

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grew up is middle, or up middle class, but there's no air conditioning. The summer is very hot. So people were all like, you know, to carrying little chair sitting in outside the complex building near the street.

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So enjoy the–the nature wind and then people chatting. That's it. It's kind of a lifestyle that time. And but then, because I mentioned that time, the city very dark because not so many

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neons, right? Then you really see the sky. The star. So clear. And always amazed me. I feel like the blue, dark blue sky is sometimes like two dimensional. And then, with the sparkling dots,

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it's almost like a painting. So beautiful. I remember once, I think at that time, when I was four or five, I think I was still in element––the kindergarten, once my father looked at me, staring at the sky,

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he said–he said, "You know, you know what, you know, you look at is the past." It drove me crazy. I look and stare. But he told me, "It's the past," which is, when I'm grown up, I know the–the sun, the star,

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the lightyear come to my eye is from long, long, long journey. Sorry. But, I think those word, eventually, I recalled when I grew up,

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I think somehow definitely influence my––the direction of my artwork, because later I work in a lot of work deal with space or unknown or–or mysterious, like a universe.

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There's something––it's always, I think there's a very strong connected with his one, just like, announcement [laugh] to me. But my mom is different.

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My mom is so, I–I feel like I got a lot from my mom. Always, she's so care and is such a nice person. Care, help people, help––you know, they always teach, China, our brother, sisters, they all

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loving each other, help each other and now the only––your––even your friend. And no matter how they poor or rich. And–and for herself, she always very––try

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to––is always in the end, the last. Because, when I was a––when I mentioned when I was childhood, my health condition not that great and sometimes, frequently in the morning, I have to go to––my mom had bring me––brought

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me to the hospital to get a–a blood test, so like, you know, to––have to be before eating, have the blood take off to for the examination. So, after we are from the hospital, she brought me to a–a

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small restaurant to buy––that time a bowl of jiuniang yuanzi (sweet fermented rice ball soup), like a sesame ball or something like that, 10 cents for a bowl. And she, because–because morning I don't have a breakfast,

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but she doesn't have her breakfast too, because it's so earlier, because after she did that, she had to send me to home and then she had to run her job. So why not eat? I say, "Mom, why you don't buy for you?" She said,

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"I'm not hungry." The first time like that, a few times, I know. She's so care, but she probably also tried to save some money. But then, you know, that's the person like that. Always, when I growing up, she'd always mention,

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"No matter how you're strong, you have to help people as you can." So, very, very, very loving. And what are some of the values that they educated you to bring? I think–I think it, help–help people,

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help each other. I think that is their always, as I remembers, and yeah there's one thing that's very interesting. In my home, my family, and I think my memory started, like, when I was kindergarten.

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And once for a while or once a week, I can't remember, is that family have a gathering after dinner, gathering, chatting. So my parents asked the kids, right, me, brother, sisters, and they say, "You want

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chatting or you want to report, you want to discuss, or even you want to criticize them if they did not do something right for us. Democracy [laughs]. But, I don't remember what I exactly talked, but I

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remember the first time I so excited or scared at the same time and then all of a sudden I feel like I've become adult. So I think, you know, that's kind of a individual independent. And especially after, you know, because my generation,

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my time growing up in the very different society. And so especially after Cultural Revolution, you know, that's like so super rich, so important for my early education.

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Yeah, that's really encouraging to hear your parents brought you up to be very independent. [JZ: Yeah.] And you were talking about food, so jiuniang yuanzi, and so on. So, could you––you can tell us what your household meal tend to

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be? For example, what kind of dishes did you tend to cook? Yeah, well, I still remember before my–my parents hired a nanny because my––both of my–my parents working,

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and then we have four kids, and our age is very close. And when they're young, so they have nanny. She cooked many different food. I think it's her–her––later, when I grown up, we realized her back––her hometown is Anhui.

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And we have a very––I miss her so much once I grown up. And then she left. She left here because my grandma come to stay with–with us, and then they don't get along, so she left.

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I feel so sorry and feel so hurt, and I still remember that time I cried when I was probably about five. I cried round all the whole street to find her. Of course I cannot. But, when I got a job when I grown

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up, when I had first salary, when I was 18, I got a job. First–first month of my salary, I sent money to her. And so her food, I don't remember exactly, I just like enjoyed. But later, my mom, she have

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to cook after job. And lunchtime were little, but we're––there's community–community canteen restaurant, so we––my parents bought some coupons so we just buy food. And family

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dishes I mostly remember is like big clay cups for food, everything like–like egg dumpling––egg–egg dumplings, danjiao, right? And then veggies, and then bean curd, the tofu.

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There's so many things together because my mom always, self-joking, say, "I have put everything together, because I cannot cook an individual." Because of time she come back, she doesn't want everyone waiting too long,

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starving. And the others, of course, fish, it's always I love [inaudible] enjoyed meat fish. But of course, once the Cultural Revolution come, and my parents, my father, especially my father,

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his salary be cut off mostly. So we suddenly become very, very poor. So I can't––even, I think we only––I remember once a month, we can get some small fish.

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Then that's it. And the other food, well, is-is dessert, if you count it as a food. I think I really enjoyed that time is a mooncake. Sweet, but then, more than that, more than sweet is

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because the––well, once a year, right, special. But mostly interesting because the story behind it. There's a Chang'e, there's a goddess in the moon. And there's a–there's a rabbit, the frog.

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I mean, there's like a––it's so mysterious, so beautiful. So then, have mooncake, so that's always, for me, it's the m-memories. It's the flavor and also the culture stories com-combined.

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So [laughs] that's it. Of course, there's many, many other things, but if you ask my most deeply memories, I think it's them. Wonderful, thank you. And as we were moving into,

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like, the next era of your life, so you were talking about Cultural Revolution. How old were you when you––when the Cultural Revolution started? I was born in 1955, so it was the Cultural Revolution when I was 11. So that's 1966. Yeah, that's whole

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life, everything change for-for my life. Can you tell–tell us a little bit more in detail besides the food on the table? What else has changed? Well, suddenly, I mean, first in, my neighbors,

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parents, my kid––friend, their parents. A lot of, I mentioned, a lot of us is engineering or doctors and they all become a 'bad people.' I mean, that's crazy time because Chairman Mao said,

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5%––95% people, workers, peasants, soldiers, it's great revolution they support. So it means another 5% is bad people. So every company have to fire 5% bad people.

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It's crazy. So what is––educated people is bad. So a lot of the people be––suddenly you see the Red Guard run into apartment building, and then they broke the door,

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they smashed things out. And some of my kids, their parents suicide. And–and of course, later, no longer, the Red Guard run into to–to–to my parents.

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And also physical, my father––I think one night, I heard my mom cry, and the next morning, at that time, I was young, only 11 or 12, and she was so scared, and my brother is five––four or five years older,

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so he, that time, he was so angry, he want physically to fight. But my mom's so scared. And then, so like, you know, because––and she said––that's wintertime, the–the

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Red Guard using––make some jianghu, like a cold muddy glue, to pour over his collar and froze the cold––the–the–the–the–the glue on his body in the winter like it's, like almost like frozen night.

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And–and of course, every day you have to self-criticism and then you will see the dazibao (big-character posters) all over, because not only for my parents, like the whole building almost––there's so many neighbors like that. And then you walk in the street, you see there's a Red Guard and then,

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and–and all this revolution. I mean, there's a lot of people, I mean, when I grew up, I feel like so sorry for lot of ignorant, uneducated people with a fanatical

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adoration for their emperor, for the Chairman Mao. So, people, it's there, that time, it's just like, you cannot really imagine. I mean, of course, some people may miss it because they–they feel they have a power.

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But for educated people, it's so scary. And yeah, I think that's––and also like, when I, that time, I was still young and so scared, there's no one I can play with. I mean, every people, some kids,

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they're young revolutionaries' kids. They are–they are running around, but we're just scared at home. That also makes me––very young, I start to really, like, dislike the political––politics

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completely. And then, of course, because this experience, when I'd grown up, make me thinking about, you know, how important––independent individuals important.

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No matter your–your––what your career is, as a person. So, I mean, that's the, in the future, but in, during the time, when I was childhood, when I was young, little, I mean, just mostly very scary,

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because you never know what's going to be happening. I lost my parents because once––there's a number of people which are in the building suicide. And one I remember, once evening my parents called

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my brother, sister together. They're very nervous. They say, "What if one day, they never come––cannot come back, or if they disappeared? So you–you four have to support each

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other." So that's the–that's the time, but, you know, afterwards, if in a possible way to–to–to conclusion, to look at it, I feel like I've become very stronger through that.

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People can be knocked out or become more stronger. So, during that distress period, how did you support your family, or how did you––your family support each other, or among your neighbors and friends?

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Well, that's when I talk about 1966, 1967, and–and then, the schools closed. There's no school. At that time, I was elementary school.

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School all closed. And the teacher all become a 'bad class.' So, well, financially–financially, of course, that's very obviously. Like before, I grew up in middle or high middle class.

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And then, because that, my father's salary, I think at that time he used to be, I don't––100, like a, 80, 160 kuai or something. But usually, average people is like 50 kuai, so he's quite

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high income. And Cultural Revolution come, he only 15. From 160 down to 15. So, we cannot really buy a lot of food, or like something special.

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We just can, just pay because my mom's salary is not that high. And I remember once morning, early morning, I went with my mom, the winter very cold, to went to the–the food market,

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caichang. So like, there's a lot of cabbage, people at the outside, not so fresh, people pick up, threw it away. We went there to pick it up. So I could imagine, like once a month, have a little

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fish. That's it. My parents thought that at least when we, especially my brother, sisters, that age, the body is growing up, need some nutrition. So, yeah. Otherwise, just like in–in fit––in–in

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mental or the physical chaos for my family, or for when I grew up. But–but

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very luckily–very luckily, I met in junior high school––well that's–that's probably––my started a little bit further beyond. So 1966 through 1969,

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there's no school. School all closed. Three years. In 1969, the school reopened. The school reopened, but it still is Cultural Revolution time, and they allowed–they allowed teaching--student be

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educated, but of course, a lot of propaganda, political brainwash. And also they taught simple math and grammar, you know, to writing. But I'm very lucky I met my art teacher there.

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So, that's––he changed my life. And because so, I still remember clearly, and his name is Li Zijin, Li Laoshi (Teacher Li). And once in the first art class, and they

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did––the project is writing word, like a meishu zi, like art-designed characters. And then, he passed by, he looked around each kid in the classroom, and then he looked at my work.

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He said, "Xiao tongxue," like a little kid, students, "I thought you have a very good sense. You did beautiful work. Do you like art? Do you like to draw?" I say,

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"Yes, I love," because that's when I was in childhood, in-in kindergarten, I started really enjoy it. I said, "Yes, I do very much." Then he say, "After class, could you come to my office?" So I went

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with other two friend––classmate. I went to his office. He showed us some artwork and–and–and also illustrations, and of-of course, art propaganda. You know, Chairman Mao, the Red Guard,

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those. He said, "I want––I can open the––organize the after school program teaching art. Do you want? I saw you have those talent." I say, "Yes. I-I'm very enjoy much." So, I started.

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After a few months, only two students left. Everyone––only two-two students stayed, including me. The others all left, because there's sometimes people really boring or it's not for them. But then, after more and more getting closer

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closer, I, you know, for me, I feel like he's not just a teacher. He's my big brother. Especially after the Cultural Revolution, because when I mentioned that in 1969, my father be kicked away to countryside.

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My brother, sisters all sent to countryside. In Shanghai, only my mom and me, myself, so very lonely and very, like you know, scary moment. And then, suddenly, I feel like that's a big brother for me.

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And then he teach me art, and also, he's also like, such a nice, kind, people––person. And, after a few months, he quietly told me, he said, "I know you–you have a"

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again, he said, "you have talent. It's art. I want to teach you real art. Real art. Because it's not propaganda. But you have to promise you cannot tell this to

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anyone, your classmate, your teacher, even your parents." I promised. I say, "Yes. I–I promised." He––I remember, once he called me, went to his home.

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He quietly privately collect Rembrandt, some catalog, Rembrandt's work, Velasquez, you know, those are the Western classical masterwork. I mean, for me, it's complete––I have no idea about Western art, you know, in my generation that time.

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That's surreal. I'm just like amazed. They're so beautiful. The lighting tech–technique. Of course, it's not––even if it's not original, but even for print, very bad print, it's, for me,

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it's complete open another world. And after more he trained me quietly in afterschool program. He trained me also in the school, but there's one small white

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house in the sum––be used as our education program, but he have to close all the window, put the curtain. Even the summer, that time, there's no air conditioning, no fan even.

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Sweaty. I remember we're only underwear, all sweat, to learn, to draw Classical European style because his teacher started from Germany, so trained him. So even during the Cultural Revolution time,

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he trained me. It's a–it's a real art, as he said. And yeah, so that's, I mean, that's in the beginning, like when I, in my generation, I'm very lucky because once the later

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school––after Cultural Revolution and school reopened, and then the-they opened for the examination at our school, when I started to paint, draw, all the teachers, later, they told me they all shocked. They say,

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"How surprise! After Cultural Revolution we still can see the young people can draw like professional trained." So--and then also, of course, not only he trained me with the good art technique, but also I think it's

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like I'm actually, he's like my big brother. He's so honest, so helpful, so care people. He's just like a nice person. So I'm–I'm always very lucky.

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And it's funny, I did the same thing when I came to––when I left China later in the 80s and when I came to America, I think when I first won the grant from Pollock-Krasner Foundation, I send him the money. I want to

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show––I mean, it's not the money. I want to show my appreci–appreciation. Sorry [laughs], my–my story jump a little bit too far. Not at all. It's so fascinating and it's so encouraging to see

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humanity still being discovered in this very distressful time. And so you were able to keep this s-secret with your teacher throughout the Cultural Revolution? Yeah. Yeah, and also, yeah, because that's,

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Cultural Revolution, that's when I--during the Cultural Revolution, I privately, secretly studied with him. And so, the others also, Cultural Revolution, those experiences or shockness or scariness

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somehow make me think when I––during that time, w-when I was a child, kid, I'm scaring. But when I grown up, make me think, you know, how important your–your full information, your

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independence, your–your––how important––and yes, then when I grew up, I noticed, not only in China, I mean, there's many countries in history happened so many sorrow, sad stories.

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And then that's make me think, because lately––I–I have a lot of projects I-I-involve––it's about humanity. And to see human, to focus to survey human–human being in

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different cultures, different conditions. Like, for instance, well, that's a––in-in

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1995–– do you mind if I jump something else? Because I know that's connected with–with my Cultural Revolution time because I saw people how hate each other, how killing each other. 1995, in New York,

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I met–I met a Zen master, Bernie Glassman, very well-known American Zen master. And of course, after Cultural Revolution in Shanghai, I also have studied the Zen and Daoism, but in different way.

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And because Bernie Glassman, he––the way he Zen practice, he brought his student to work in the street, to working with––for homeless. It's a society involvement.

00:36:43.310 - 00:36:59.320

So that's opened my inference in my artwork, because before my artwork, Zen or Daoism, like a lot of my work, nature, human, the dialogue, balance, 平衡 (pínghéng) - balance, and also that's very typical, like you know,

00:37:00.470 - 00:37:19.360

oriental, Daoism inference. But, there's another kind of Zen, I mean, one's also like mental practice. But Bernie's way, he involved the society. So that's '90––I met him in

00:37:19.360 - 00:37:37.970

1994, but '95, I had––I've been invited in exhibition international show in Hiroshima for Hiro––for the nuclear bomb 50 years anniversary. My project is,

00:37:41.180 - 00:38:04.280

I walk in the street or went to the party or through––in school. Anywhere, I tried to find people from every––from all individual different crowd [inaudible] to release 和平鴿 (hépínggē) - Dove of Peace. Only I prepared my project.

00:38:04.300 - 00:38:21.810

The photographer follow me that three months. I spent three months, and I-I-I almost get heat exhaustion because walk in the street in summer, and then––and I ask people draw a dove, only when I ask the dove has to be from this to

00:38:21.890 - 00:38:39.140

that direction, and then they write a name, their occupation, and I mean, this is a long story, a lot of stories. And then, and it's very interesting. People in the beginning easy to–to find, draw a dove.

00:38:39.220 - 00:38:56.350

People say, "I'm not an artist." I say, "I'm not to do drawing competition." I want to––I talk about first, I talk about my concept, what I want to do. So people start to draw that. Then, there's one–there's one country,

00:38:57.280 - 00:39:11.680

people are just hard to found it. But, once happened, I found in–in the street, in––on Broadway downtown. And he say, "Hey, I don't know how to draw a dove." I say,

00:39:11.680 - 00:39:29.520

"You know," I just say, "Trust your heart for the––for peace." So he just draw so crazy, so dramatic. I feel like, 'Wow, what's going on?' And then he––then he draw a circle, 360 degree, 'Love.' Say, "Hey, dove man, this is my dove."

00:39:30.690 - 00:39:45.040

And then, after I say goodbye, he pulled me on the side. He gave me a little bag. He's drug dealer. He sell drug in the block. But he said––he's a dove man, he said, "Peace is a lovely drug,

00:39:45.120 - 00:40:00.210

also wonderful." I mean, this is a funny story, but, after––back, I feel like even the drug dealer, when you be waking up and deep in heart, you always also have showing the love for each other.

00:40:00.720 - 00:40:19.840

Stop killing each other. There's also––this whole story like I spent three months. There's another story also very deeply. It's one––also the one country. And the gentleman, I met him, and then he listened to my story. He say–he say, "Dove only one from God.

00:40:19.840 - 00:40:38.720

You can make––how you can make over 100 stuff?" Because that time, 186 individual countries that time. But he said, "Your project, it really touching me against my religion beliefs," he draw a dove for me and sign his name in his original

00:40:39.140 - 00:40:57.970

country, nationality. And the project, once I collect all the dove people draw, and then on August 5th, that's 50 years anniversary from nuclear bomb in Hiroshima. So, in my studio in New York, I

00:40:57.990 - 00:41:17.010

cleaned whole space. On floor, I put a fax machine. I put––I lined up 186 dove on paper, and the other side in Hiroshima, my assistant, they–they on the ground. They put it on the ash on the ground, and then

00:41:17.590 - 00:41:31.760

they have a wood column and the fax machine in the air. So when I started sending, that time no computer, it's a-it's fax machine. So when I start faxing this dove, they each one––they come out from

00:41:31.840 - 00:41:50.020

fax machine in the air, they cut it, they flow, the dove, flow down to the ground, flow for like a few hours, like all the dove I collected, people, participant, into––from New York. In the same time, within a second,

00:41:51.430 - 00:42:07.320

covered in Hiroshima. It's very idea-idealistic work. It's a dream, but I think, you know, that's a––it's-it's human, it's a society, it's how two people can love each other instead of killing each other.

00:42:08.550 - 00:42:25.590

So that's influenced a lot of my artwork. I mean, my–my early life experience and also, I met Bernie Glassman, how my artwork involved to the societal, as later I say, the societal landscape.

00:42:28.640 - 00:42:43.580

Wow, that was beautiful. And you were able to pull––I mean, be pulled out from the distress and actually return to the society with something with so much of love and joy. Yeah, would love to see that work if you could send [JZ:

00:42:43.580 - 00:42:58.050

Yeah.] us some. I will send you this images and also they're actually––they all have a––they have a–a video, a film document, because some long, like hours, because the

00:42:58.110 - 00:43:15.650

photographer follow three months. And then, I remember the Secretary of the UN write an email for appreciate the work, and then New York Times art reviews, and also later the document show in New York and also

00:43:16.160 - 00:43:30.640

Düsseldorf Museum in Germany. So I–I showed the video about the–the process, three months, and then the dove. People draw the original dove on the wall and also the

00:43:31.730 - 00:43:49.130

fax copy from Hiroshima. So all this dove and also photo, because each people draw color black, yellow, white, all different people's hands. We're drawing this stuff, like hundreds, so that's whole wall and on

00:43:49.230 - 00:44:00.140

floor. So that's a document. I can–I can email you some. Yeah, and this work and also I think there's another work related. It's 1997, I did it in Japan.

00:44:00.690 - 00:44:17.940

It's––I've made a––the work called Foot Print. I build a, like, stone island, and the whole space just emptied this in the center of a stone island. The stone island, of course I made it,

00:44:17.980 - 00:44:32.710

it's hollow. Underneath have all the water. So the stone––the water, to cover the surface of the stone island and drop down, they circulate, and the top of the stone island have a footprint.

00:44:32.940 - 00:44:50.290

I collect, for the print, these samples. From different ethnic––I mean, not–not everyone, like only twelve or nine footprint around circle. Male or female. Young, old, but from different country.

00:44:51.200 - 00:45:07.010

And I traced, chiseled, and then like a––almost like humans monument. So when you first walk in the space, the art museum, art gallery, you–you smell the ink, because the water mix with ink.

00:45:08.890 - 00:45:22.310

And cover––circulate in the–in the stone island. And then you heard sound of water, very peaceful. And the people, the participant audience, in Japan, they're very easy to do.

00:45:22.310 - 00:45:34.260

They have take off their shoes. They're walking on the island. They're walking down the footprint captured on floor, which is very fine canvas, very, very fine

00:45:34.740 - 00:45:47.400

cotton. So the footprint covered, but footprint very individual. But each day, they move more and more. The whole process three months. It crossed–crossed–crossed over.

00:45:48.520 - 00:46:06.290

Again, it's my–my–my dreamland is human. You know, each one individual, but how we cross, we never know but how become as-as-as family, all together.

00:46:04.590 - 00:46:23.150

So those two work actually made me win a prize honor from the New York Foundation for the Arts. They announce every three years, once every three years. So the prize is for sculpt-sculpture and installation

00:46:23.230 - 00:46:43.480

artists. So that's 1997. So that's somehow influence and form when I grow up, become a artist, so there's some lot of a–lot of a memories. Lot of something is there,

00:46:43.700 - 00:47:03.640

so-so. Thank you for all this amazing, yeah, elaboration on your art and how Cultural Revolution contributed to those thoughts. And as we go back in time a little bit to when it happened,

00:47:04.030 - 00:47:19.050

so, after the Cultural Revolution, did your–your father and three brothers came back to Shanghai? My father back to Shanghai. My brother, sisters, no.

00:47:19.640 - 00:47:31.280

They stayed in the countryside, but then, they went through the education examination. They went to college. And not–not–not my brother. I think at that time he is dating.

00:47:32.240 - 00:47:50.420

He gave up the chance to be college. H-he-he decided to stay with his fiancée. But they're-they're working in some––a big company in Anhui province. And two of my sisters, they went to college

00:47:51.210 - 00:48:09.610

and university and then become a doctors. And one back to Shanghai, one married and stayed in other-other province. And did your parents and siblings support your decision to pursue

00:48:09.610 - 00:48:26.590

further education in arts? Well, my father, yes. He say, "Do your belief, do your love, your–your–your–your inspiration. That's very important." But my mom's scary, because

00:48:27.140 - 00:48:40.600

she saw–she still remember this Cultural Revolution, "How many artists––how many, you know, people––those people in the art, how bad life they faced." So she's–she's not support.

00:48:41.190 - 00:48:57.850

My brother, sisters during that time, they were already separate because when––during the––when I was 14, they'll all be kicked out, right. They all sent to countryside. So because they are a few years, two years, three years, four years older than me,

00:48:58.350 - 00:49:11.790

so during that time, the school––no school then, they sent, of the [inaudible], you know, the young, the–the–the young generation, young students, after there's no job in the city, right?

00:49:12.160 - 00:49:30.840

So, Chairman Mao said, "Go countryside. Study from peasants." So they all get kicked out to countryside. So I separate with––physical separate with them when I was 14. So, they–they all, I mean, that time there's no internet.

00:49:31.220 - 00:49:47.180

Phone calls very expensive. So write a letter going travel like a few weeks. And so, by the way, we're not really that much contact, but we are very close,

00:49:48.290 - 00:50:01.440

deeply. You said you were 14, and you physically left your family. So— I've stayed in Shanghai because of, when I was 14,

00:50:02.760 - 00:50:21.630

my brother, sister are be sent out, and also my father. My father was a––that's 1969, which I'm 14, my first, I think, winter is January. My brother first be sent out to countryside, and in

00:50:21.630 - 00:50:42.040

the summer, I think June, my--two of my sisters sent to–to North Manchuria. In 1970, so year after, my father was sent to also, north--northern province. So that's a––when I was 14 or 15, so only

00:50:42.880 - 00:51:02.130

me and my-my mother live in Shanghai. So it was when you're almost 21 that the Cultural Revolution ended, right? '96, yeah–yeah–yeah. Yeah, that's

00:51:02.410 - 00:51:19.050

1970––1976, yeah–yeah. And you immediately applied for art school back then. Actually, 1975, a year before Cultural Revolution,

00:51:19.050 - 00:51:38.290

I applied because, you know, that's a very interesting timing. That's because 1975, Deng Xiaoping back to the Central Committee, and somehow Mao maybe tried to need balance or asked Deng

00:51:38.580 - 00:51:56.990

Xiaoping. Want Deng Xiaoping back to his position, so he said, "Higher education is important." But then, at '75, the whole China open for university, college, open.

00:51:57.980 - 00:52:15.510

But that's for exper-experimental open. And then two in Shanghai, two in Beijing. In Shanghai, it's Shanghai Theater Academy and the Shanghai Music School. In Beijing, it's the Central–Central Theatre Academy and the Central

00:52:15.760 - 00:52:29.580

Music School. So it's just art, one from Beijing, one from Shanghai. So, once '75, when they start to open, have examination, I remember like thousands people because not only the young

00:52:29.660 - 00:52:44.980

students graduate, and also because 10 years, there's no university. There lot of people older than me. Now, it's a chance to–to get into the college,

00:52:44.980 - 00:53:00.770

university to learn art, professional learn. So I–I remember thousands students, like huge place, like, the summer examination time would draw a model live as-as portrait, and they closed all the window.

00:53:00.810 - 00:53:16.320

I sweaty, [laughs] I remember, I draw, but then, I was--went very high level. I got in because I, like I mentioned before, I was very lucky. I trained very professionally

00:53:17.330 - 00:53:30.750

drawing, right. And so all the professor later after, you know, getting in school later become a close––become friend. They say they are surprised. So I'm––I-I got into the art school.

00:53:31.350 - 00:53:50.990

Very lucky. So besides drawing, and you said earlier it was mimicking the dazibao, and it was all like prints and design, like graphic design, what else were you experimenting

00:53:51.070 - 00:54:07.950

or studying in your college education? In college education, well, we have a oil painting. We have a model. We paint. But of course, that still is very, not say like a Cultural

00:54:07.990 - 00:54:26.660

Revolution propaganda, it's more classical painting technique we train, but it's not modern. It's not a modern artwork, but then because I met another teacher in school, which also very lucky,

00:54:26.720 - 00:54:40.180

陈钧德, 陈老師, (chénjūndé, chén lǎoshī) - Junde Chen, 천선생님/Teacher Chen. His teacher is 刘海粟 (liú hǎisù) - Haisu Liu. So, during the time, 1920–30, a lot of Chinese artists study in France, in

00:54:40.220 - 00:54:55.330

Belgium, in Germany, in Japan, and then, during the 40s and 50s, back to China, and then Cultural Revolution started, they all gathering, hiding in Shanghai. But, they have a, in the beginning, they have a––they call salon,

00:54:55.450 - 00:55:13.850

they show the work. And then Cultural Revolution start, they teaching some students very privately. So Chen Junde later, after that, he was the professor. So he telling me some Impressionists: Monet,

00:55:14.690 - 00:55:27.920

Manet, Cézanne. I mean, that's a––but that's like a––it's not a in-class project. It's outside class. I learned a lot of this.

00:55:29.170 - 00:55:48.610

And then, Cultural Revolution over in one year after, so then we have more chance to see some catalog. We have some catalog start to publish and not only the art and also

00:55:48.910 - 00:56:07.470

literature and also the book, philosophy. So I jumped in. I think every evening, I was in the library. I was the latest reader in the library before they closed. They have to be closes early. I read all those

00:56:07.470 - 00:56:27.490

Europe-Europe literature and also a lot of philosophy. Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, you know, that's generation because Cultural Revolution over, suddenly open like a––I just want to learn, just catch up. And yeah,

00:56:27.550 - 00:56:42.230

so––and also, there's another very interesting, when I mentioned contemporary art, because at that time, even college open, but there's no contemporary art like today, because like multimedia.

00:56:42.680 - 00:56:54.730

That time, you see only oil painting. It's you do oil. You're Chinese painting department, you learn Chinese painting all separate. But when I was in Shanghai Theatre Academy, there,

00:56:54.860 - 00:57:14.380

we have a fine arts department, we have a stage design department, we have a performance department, we have direct–director department, 导演 (dǎoyǎn) - director, and then also writing program. So, all together become a very much like a installation,

00:57:14.440 - 00:57:26.410

like, you know, multimedia. So that's why there's some interview, some people write article, they say, "Look at it, that like 蔡国强 (cài guóqiáng) - Guo-Qiang Cai,

00:57:26.920 - 00:57:43.440

陈箴 (chén zhēn) - Chen Zhen." It's my schoolmate and me, so there's some of us students were more sensitive, so we all how together to gather in this space, different media, to work together instead of very

00:57:43.520 - 00:58:01.340

individual, separate limit. So that's again, wai da zheng zhao (歪打正着, score a lucky hit), it's just like a, it happened, but of course, it has to be you have a those sense to feel that.

00:58:01.380 - 00:58:16.940

So it happened, like Cai Guo-Qiang, Chen Zhen, we are very close friend. So who were some of the masters that you were studying back then, like, on textbooks? You mentioned earlier in elementary

00:58:17.010 - 00:58:30.850

school your teacher showed you Velázquez and Rembrandt. Yeah. Who else are you studying in college, then? In college, of course, that time I would start to see Picasso and

00:58:31.870 - 00:58:46.140

Malevich, very special for me, and Kandinsky. And in beginning, of course, Cézanne and these Impressionists and Expressionists. It's quickly, went through then, I really like the

00:58:48.770 - 00:59:09.530

even–even the Dalí for a while, surrealism. And, yeah quickly, all very quickly, like a forward, like a reward. And–and then

00:59:09.510 - 00:59:27.180

1979, by that year, it happened. I went to 龙门 cave (lóngmén) - Dragon Gate 永乐宫, it’s a Taoist temple (yǒnglè gōng) - Yongle Palace/Eternal Happiness Temple, mirror painting, and then Dunhuang Caves.

00:59:27.240 - 00:59:46.850

With every place, I spent a month living there to draw to work. That's––it shake me again, it's because open up another scene for me, because before I say I learned very earlier and–and Western painting,

00:59:47.030 - 01:00:00.870

beautifully, strongly influenced. It's very important. But then, it's ever since it's when I response from what I see the––is the three, it is jiaodian toushi (焦点透视, focus perspective) it is reality.

01:00:01.580 - 01:00:15.810

But I found those Daoism, Buddhism temple. Suddenly, everything is two-dimensional. But then they go to directly into my heart. That's experience I never had before.

01:00:14.780 - 01:00:30.390

So that's a year, it just happened a year, I went to those place and each place I spent a month to do painting. Not only copy, it's really thinking and redo face. That time, Dunhuang is not open for public.

01:00:30.570 - 01:00:50.980

I put an easel with my artwork for all the caves are open for me. And I can do it because besides technique––and also I quickly noticed, even tradition has a lot of integrate because it's from different

01:00:51.080 - 01:01:05.830

ethnic, different time. From Buddhist, you know, from a––you will see the Dunhuang, early Dunhuang, you will see more lot of Indian influence. And then later, shaoshuminzu (ethnic minorities) like Bei Wei and Northern

01:01:06.110 - 01:01:25.860

Wei dynasty, there's another influence, and later Tang dynasty. It's a one, you know, eras from hun-hundred years. All the culture integrate with one subject. So that's a very strong shock

01:01:26.460 - 01:01:45.980

impact. When I'm back to Shanghai, I stopped to do painting as I––my–my experimental painting, suddenly, I don't know how I continue. So it took me about a year, so my work saw big change. And because when I thought when I back, since I don't know how to

01:01:46.020 - 01:02:02.300

continue doing my the artwork as I used be do, and now I start to look at Laozi, Zhuangzi, and also Daoism and Buddhism because those–those knowledge, I never, never, ever touched before.

01:02:04.030 - 01:02:22.490

And I grew up in Shanghai very westernized, the––and on my early education like that, so because that, I started looking at Laozi, Zhuangzi, and then–and then––and also look at the–the silk carving like Zhuangke (篆刻, seal carving).

01:02:23.560 - 01:02:40.650

And in Jiangjunya, ancient archaeology site, those––it also amazed me strongly. So, later my artwork color changed from a very bright color to black, white.

01:02:41.510 - 01:02:59.130

Very simple. And I start to––1980, very early, I start to, a year after Dunhuang, I started using nature materials like stone, sand directly in the––on canvas. Instead to–to paint to describe,

01:02:59.580 - 01:03:15.050

I using the nature material. And in the beginning stone, later, out of branches. The wood is all part of nature elements. And–and then, I added rice paper,

01:03:15.050 - 01:03:35.180

ink over those object. Because I think all the materials has carrying some culture message. Like–like sumi ink and paper, it's–it's–it's from mankind, man-made. Stone, some other, from

01:03:35.260 - 01:03:50.870

nature. There's something the dialogue capture. And also meantime, I also use an oil paint. The oil painting is as I my major, oil painting department, I use oil very naturally, but the oil say, "It's just a brushstroke,"

01:03:51.530 - 01:04:02.650

the oil or the ink touching. It's different. It's all black but those black, the sense, very sensitive. It's different. You see the culture, something,

01:04:03.160 - 01:04:17.640

its interest in dialogue. So since then, my artwork always until today, I always using those all the different medium together. So that's the way I feel like it, that I tried to balance

01:04:17.740 - 01:04:37.310

between the difference. That's fascinating. And you were talking about the school having a very kind of multimedia experience for you with all the departments together. How did that impact your, like, use of medium

01:04:37.950 - 01:04:53.540

later on? Yeah, I, for instance, I, before I mention the one I use a fax machine in Hiroshima, and then later using lot of nature

01:04:53.580 - 01:05:11.740

materials, so water. But the water flows. Water stayed. Water disappeared, become time. And the water's elements are very, from a philosophical way water and the fire or yin and the yang, or–or scientifically.

01:05:12.930 - 01:05:30.280

That's a very powerful nature elements. I use a lot of physical water with my artwork and sometimes 1992, I start working, drop the ink on the paper and using fire torch like

01:05:30.410 - 01:05:45.210

to burn ink, layer upon layer. The surface, I have to very control well, otherwise the paper can burn quickly. So I pour the ink, burn, layer by layer, the surface, almost like a planet, the surface, or moon, like texture,

01:05:45.270 - 01:06:00.730

because the ink won't––the sumi ink keep burning. They have a certain texture. And then the others, I've dropped water mixed with water-washed ink. So the painting I called "Water and Fire," it's–it's

01:06:00.850 - 01:06:18.520

the elements, t-there's no any painting. It's happening, happening with human involved with–with nature elements, so that's the artwork, I think. And also,

01:06:19.580 - 01:06:32.920

I–I did a lot of work in with––because the water, they–they have flowing, the movements. They can be disappearing, and they can be stayed.

01:06:33.260 - 01:06:53.520

And also, the water can be following this––the direction following in the side. Because they are not just, say I designed, but how to follow the constant? So I have a lot of installation is happening.

01:06:53.660 - 01:07:07.390

I design the ideas, but then, how happen in the process is by chance. If you are interested, I can send you. I do––I have a lot of those big installations. And then artwork, I did Qian Zi Wen (the Thousand Character Text, a Chinese poem),

01:07:10.580 - 01:07:29.430

"Vestiges of Process: Qian Zi Wen." Qian Zi Wen, a 100-word single character, but all individual are different. But talk about a [inaudible], to universal to cultural to down to earth.

01:07:30.320 - 01:07:50.050

It's like a such a–a fantastic icon. So when I working in the project in a museum, so I–I preparing Qian Zi Wen samples. Some is the dazhuan (large-seal script) type, some is Song Huizong (emperor and great

01:07:50.050 - 01:08:08.420

calligrapher), shou jin ti (slender gold script), or–or–or–or different type. And I preparing the brush, and it's also this textbook. The participant become a––they come to––they can see, enjoy it. The first day is all open.

01:08:09.000 - 01:08:25.740

And I wrote a word and then asked people, you can–you can participate. You only––you can write everything, everywhere, but have to follow from 1000 characters. You cannot––you have––you can't repeat a word or characters,

01:08:25.800 - 01:08:40.860

but has to be everything limit in the 1000 Qian Zi Wen. So people started writing in different style or their own style and big, small, different. And for months, the whole museum covered,

01:08:42.420 - 01:08:58.190

more and more covered. And during the time, during the–during the process time, I–I dipped on the wall color by random to erase off some, shuā qiáng (paint the wall)

01:08:59.080 - 01:09:16.510

by random. It painted over like making the wall–the wall partially of partial still there, and people continue to write, almost like archaeology site. And then, also, I wrote using color,

01:09:16.910 - 01:09:32.600

draw some punctuations. So the whole piece, when I concern, is the cultural movements and with everyone involved tradition and people walking into space feels

01:09:32.920 - 01:09:46.560

familiar because you still can recognize Qian Zi Wen, but you get shocked. You don't know what's going on, what's happened. It's that system I––group

01:09:47.420 - 01:10:05.510

conceptual artwork. When I left China, and then when I return, I started because of I left China in '89 the second time, first time is the ACC program in '87. But then, until '95, six years I-I-I cannot going back.

01:10:05.850 - 01:10:22.740

I didn't back. But after six years of big times gap, and it's a shock to me because this society changed tremendously, good or bad. I feel like there's something, as artists, I want to–I want to focus

01:10:22.860 - 01:10:36.610

on these issues, like, you know, the transition, and sincerely misunderstanding or destroying or contribution the same time. So I did a lot of those, I just mentioned there's a Qian Zi Wen,

01:10:37.110 - 01:10:50.810

I–I want to found a foundation. Its base is very tradition form. And how to everyone involved through the time, and then, it's–it's some people say excitement,

01:10:50.950 - 01:11:06.210

some people say destroying. I don't give the conclusion, but I, everyone involved, everyone in part of it, and now after everyone think about. I've heard many, like also 2019,

01:11:09.620 - 01:11:24.510

I studied in the Royal Academy in London and then did "Human Traces" about the people. I mean there's a lot. I don't–I don't want to occupying too long [laughs], but if you're interested, I can send you lot of those of mine,

01:11:24.760 - 01:11:43.590

because this is my artwork. So you said Qian Zi Wen happened before or after '89? That's after '89. After '89, because when I left China '89, the first time I came to America is '87.

01:11:43.770 - 01:12:01.450

I received the fellowship from Asia Cultural Council. So I spent eight months in New York and to research contemporary art, practice art. And '89, I left the China, come to America.

01:12:02.150 - 01:12:20.640

So, until '95, so I back to China for visit my parents. So that six years, I haven't seen them. And then, because that, it's like a lot of a––because society–society like a huge change.

01:12:21.030 - 01:12:33.880

So that's shocked me. I'm not making judgment, yes and no, right or wrong. I just feel like there's something, as artist, I want to capture the societal landscape in a very special

01:12:34.270 - 01:12:55.160

moment. But I want to––I don't want a just a conceptual artist, just put some–some notes, I want to like has a certain visual–visual impact. So then I start to create China chapter that's using antique.

01:12:55.880 - 01:13:13.830

But then later, there's many. Then, Qian Zi Wen is––Qian Zi Wen actually started 2016. It's not long ago. But I did a few versions. I did it in Shanghai, and then Xi'an, and then

01:13:14.070 - 01:13:30.430

also Istanbul. So just to keep consistency, you were also working as a shipbuilder after you graduated from arts academies? Okay––

01:13:30.780 - 01:13:46.230

No, I was shipbuilder is when I was in after junior high school–high school. And, because that time, there's no art school. And art schools opened, before we talked about it, is 19–1975. When I

01:13:46.560 - 01:14:04.770

graduate from high school, it's 1972. So, during that time, there's no college. So I–I got the job in the shipyard, so that's in Shanghai. Because of my sisters, my brother all kicked out from Shanghai,

01:14:04.770 - 01:14:20.260

so in my generation, my time that year have some job offered in Shanghai. So the school say, "Your family, everyone's––they're out, so you're in Shanghai," so they gave me––it's not––I don't have a choice to choose

01:14:20.320 - 01:14:36.450

which job, but I got a–a exception note so I went to the shipyard. And what happened after you graduate from college? After graduate from college,

01:14:36.650 - 01:14:58.480

I–I–I went to––I got some research position in Shanghai Artists Association, a year or half-year. Then, they canceled that program. So then, they put me, because there's no––during that

01:14:58.500 - 01:15:14.020

time, everyone's supposed to have a job. You have a job, but you cannot lay off someone. You can fire someone. So they found me a job at the Shanghai Art Exhibition Gallery Center, which is

01:15:14.020 - 01:15:30.840

belongs to Shanghai Artists Association. So I become a––they have a research department. I become a young worker there. And you stayed in that job until '87.

01:15:30.860 - 01:15:48.640

You got a fellowship to come to New York. Yeah, yeah. And of course, during the time, I got a little trouble because '81, I got this job, and '83, I, with another few young artists, we

01:15:48.850 - 01:16:06.820

had a––we all self-organized exhibition called "'83: Painting Experimental Exhibition." I started showing my abstraction work, a lot of work with nature, with stones, with everything, and–and open in Fudan University the

01:16:07.640 - 01:16:21.780

teaching––Teachers Club, because that time there's no any museums who would accept those work. So we–we just organized as someone to prove we showed there. Half a day, the show will be closed.

01:16:22.650 - 01:16:41.070

And boy, I was the––later, the newspaper criticize, I was the worst badly influenced by Western bourgeoisie(?) Culture, because, say that my work is known. The peasants, workers, I mean, the people don't understand.

01:16:39.620 - 01:16:57.790

It's very Cultural Revolution, this crit-critivity language. They asked me to do a selfish criticism, which is, I––my–my–my leader, my boss that time, he's head of a Shanghai artist exhibition center.

01:16:57.850 - 01:17:11.230

He said, "Jian-Jun," he said, "you," he say, "I went to a meeting in the Cultural Bureau meeting. They announced your name a few times. You have to do a self-criticism, so I can help you out." I said,

01:17:11.270 - 01:17:28.860

"For what reason?" He said, "You had very badly influence by the bourgeoisie(?), Western bourgeoisie(?) influence." I said, "I've had a very bad influence by Daoism, tradition, Chinese culture." Because I argue and I say, "That's nature––that work

01:17:28.900 - 01:17:45.670

is truly is––I think about nature and human being, how to dialogue–dialogue." So that's after Dunhuang, right. I start–start to study, learn Daoism, nature. I start using the–the nature elements.

01:17:46.550 - 01:18:05.140

So those type of work and during that time, of course it's crazy time again. Even '83 is after Cultural Revolution, but happen sometimes suddenly they call Anti-Spiritual Pollution Movement. And happened when I had my shows, at same time,

01:18:05.750 - 01:18:20.120

and this show become a bad case. And so, I become a doorman. Ever since I refused to do self-criticism, I've become dormant in museum for eight months and suddenly

01:18:21.140 - 01:18:36.220

gone. I–I–I'm free, there's no pressure. It's because–because the central government have a really conflict, because Zhao Ziyang who appointed back to the central government position, so they back to open policy again.

01:18:37.290 - 01:18:56.540

So '83, anti-spiritual because some leader, they follow Mao's structure, strategy–strategies. So like, there's lot of fighting in the top government, which is the policy is really influence

01:18:56.680 - 01:19:16.720

everyone's life. So '83 and when I become doorman at '84, I become––I am very back to my position. And then, '84, the end of year '84, one of my show and–and my artwork in the show be–be closed.

01:19:17.280 - 01:19:30.950

It turned on dialogue. In Shanghai, it be collected by a big collector from U.S., L.A. He has his own museum collection, Weisman Collection of Art,

01:19:31.920 - 01:19:49.940

and he and his curator come, and I met him. They called, organized the day I met him and madam, and they really like it, and then, they paid 10,000 U.S. dollars, that time. That time, you know, for everyone,

01:19:50.220 - 01:20:05.100

that's whole my life cannot make that money, but–but it's happen. '84, '85, the political–political movement change. The central government start to push in [indecipherable],

01:20:05.780 - 01:20:20.070

means self–self-business, individual business. And suddenly, I become a young hero. I made such a huge money. It's crazy time.

01:20:20.070 - 01:20:37.320

What–what? I–I lost your voice. Can you hear me? [JZ: Yeah–yeah–yeah–yeah.] Sorry. Yeah, I was just saying it's s-super interesting everything happens and changes

01:20:37.390 - 01:20:55.170

very quickly regarding to politics [JZ: Yes.] and that might have caused the–the–the first con––Chinese contemporary artists, that generation to be very political. Yes. Yeah–yeah, very, very much like it is you never know

01:20:55.250 - 01:21:10.070

suddenly something up could be hero, suddenly become a dormant. And following that, what happened in '89? Were you in China or were you in the U.S. back then?

01:21:12.560 - 01:21:29.320

'89––'87 to 88, I was–I was fellowship from Asia Culture Council, so I was basically in New York, and–and then, '88, the summer I back to Shanghai, and then '88––the summer I went to Germany,

01:21:29.540 - 01:21:45.600

have my exhibition, then travel in Europe. And then also meantime, since '86, I've become the head of a art research department, Shanghai Art Museum, because in '85 start a Shanghai

01:21:45.760 - 01:22:01.660

Art Museum, so that's the–the first museum in Shanghai, in-in government-based, contemporary, modern, we say. In '87, I become Assistant Director in Shanghai Art Museum. I was youngest Assistant Director in China at that time,

01:22:01.660 - 01:22:16.090

museum assistant. '88, when I back from Europe and back to Shanghai, so I'm create my artwork and also working for Shanghai Art Museum,

01:22:16.700 - 01:22:34.390

and also I organized some program called Experimental Art Exhibition Center, so I support young artists. Some–some like a, not say, official style. Some experiment.

01:22:34.820 - 01:22:54.870

Give young artists have an–have an exhibition chance. So, but, you know, that-that's '89, and then, I also participant the–the first China avant-garde show in Beijing.

01:22:56.240 - 01:23:13.770

It's in the beginning of the '89, February '89. And then, later I realized the political situation change and tremendously, crazily.

01:23:14.710 - 01:23:30.180

And of course, I support the students for their demo–demo–democracy movements. And–and then, I know that time I have to leave, because I feel like unsafe again.

01:23:30.320 - 01:23:48.010

My childhood memories, my––I don't want my life back my parents, like my parents. And all, you know, you cannot really do contemporary art like '83, my show be closed. So, I, and

01:23:48.130 - 01:24:03.220

through friend help, so I left China. It's '89. And hearing what happened after you left China, what–what were some of your immediate reactions?

01:24:07.160 - 01:24:18.910

Trying how to react when I left? Yeah, how did–how did you react when you hear about what happened in the June 4th? Oh. June 4th, I was in Shanghai.

01:24:19.010 - 01:24:36.230

I know I was in––even June 5th, I'm still with students in the street in Shanghai. I mean, I–I left i-it's July. I see, I see. And what were your––or what were you like

01:24:36.310 - 01:24:54.520

doing, and what were some of the reactions that you had, immediately hearing about what happened in Tiananmen? Well, there's a–there's a lot of information from people, from students, from friend, from VOA,

01:24:55.670 - 01:25:10.220

from different––Voice of America. You know, there's many, many informations. And so, I––during that time, I–I just told myself I have to be very careful, has be

01:25:11.160 - 01:25:25.740

time for me to leave. That's–that's my–my–my strategy, my react, because that's very dramatic when I left, because the art museum did not know I'm leaving.

01:25:27.080 - 01:25:45.820

I disappeared. But I got a visa, I got a passport. I mean, there's a–there's a–a people in charge in the Shanghai Art Museum in charge for–for political for document. He greatly helped me, so he–he keep the secret so the leadership

01:25:45.920 - 01:26:03.080

doesn't know I'm leaving, like movie story [laughs]. And yeah, and–and then, I mean, that's like, yeah. So dramatic. So that's why after '89 until–until

01:26:03.140 - 01:26:17.700

'95, actually I back China. But '94, my boss, the director of Shanghai Art Museum, Fang (Zengxian) Laoshi, he come to visit New York for–for a–a museum project.

01:26:18.740 - 01:26:32.970

He say, "Zhang Jian-Jun, come back with me. I need you," because he's quite support. He's a artist himself, the director of Shanghai Art Museum. He's quite a support young artists experimental.

01:26:33.440 - 01:26:47.730

He said, "Art has to be experimental, can keep going, create. It's not just following the tradition. Even though he is tradition Chinese painter, but he's a very open mind, and then, he's quite trust me.

01:26:48.650 - 01:27:07.170

And then, he said, "When you"––when I left, he found a few workers replace my job. He said, "You are the m––the model of a hard worker [laughs]." So, that's '94, but then we start to––I didn't back.

01:27:07.530 - 01:27:22.140

I stay a little bit too late. I said, "I got stuck in New York with my fiancé." [laughs] I–I––but, I say, "I will come back to visit sometime." But then, we start talking about a––he's talked about a––he said,

01:27:22.200 - 01:27:39.050

"When you were in Shanghai Art Museum, you open Shanghai, like a museum have experimental center to show whatever you wanted. Do it again." So we start to talk about some possibility, and then we talk about a biennale–biennial.

01:27:40.580 - 01:27:54.380

And of course Chen Zhen. Chen Zhen is another artist friend, also very close with the profess––director, Fang Zengxian. So that time, he lives in Paris, so he also,

01:27:54.380 - 01:28:09.760

like we have kind of a communication, and finally Director Fang invited us back to Shanghai in '95. We had a meeting talking about set up the first Shanghai biennial.

01:28:14.970 - 01:28:33.930

That's fascinating. And have you met anyone that, kind of besides Chen Zhen and Mr. Fang, that has shared the same vision that you–you were doing? Like such as another artist that you're appreciating as your peer?

01:28:35.400 - 01:28:46.900

I mean, for Chinese, for–for–for–for––I mean, there's a–there's a––yeah, there's Gu Wenda, who's very helpful. And talk about that, there's–there's another art, my

01:28:46.940 - 01:29:06.920

schoolmate––oh, wait a second, suddenly remind name, and he thought that––he went to Japan long time. And Hu Xiangcheng, so he also very close to Fang and talk about

01:29:07.070 - 01:29:23.570

how the art has be international open policy. That's happening in Shanghai, because that's first biennial, after Tiananmen Square situation. So '96, they start Shanghai biennial.

01:29:23.570 - 01:29:39.480

It's very unusual in China, but because in Shanghai, during the time, the Shanghai Art Museum and Mr. Fang, he's a very open policy, and then he surrounded him in like a–a group of young artists, including me.

01:29:39.480 - 01:29:56.090

I––he–he appointed me as the assistant director and he appointed me as the head of research department. He appointed me organize the first grand opening show from Shanghai Art Museum working for him––with him,

01:29:56.430 - 01:30:06.540

to-together. That's '86. So we showed abstraction painting. We showed a lot of contemporary work. I mean, that's impossible.

01:30:07.540 - 01:30:26.590

That's–that's the only official--government official museum that time in Shanghai for more than––and we showing a lot of a–a lot of famous so-called official political famous artists. The work lost, even not been chosen, because I

01:30:26.790 - 01:30:41.190

organized–I organized another select like a committee team. Chen Zhen's one of the curator––I mean, that time we don't know the curator. Chen Zhen's one of the committee member.

01:30:41.330 - 01:30:58.720

Another, called 杨辉 (yáng huī) - Yang Hui, and me and––those two artists never had a show in Shanghai Art Museum, working for contemporary art. So we–we choose the work. We select the work, and then how to display the show

01:30:58.820 - 01:31:16.430

that-that's for the first Shanghai Art Museum grand opening show. We're not as traditional way, your first, your big political leader position, the first and the famous second, da-da-da-da. We designed for its artwork, art

01:31:16.490 - 01:31:33.640

exhibition. How to work together, how to looks beautiful, instead you are famous, y-you're high position. So that's the–the–the opening show, and after three days, there's no any news response.

01:31:34.120 - 01:31:52.760

So I remember my boss, director, Fang-Fang Laoshi, he said, "Jian-Jun," he said, "JJ, go find out what's going on. There's no any response." So I called my–my friends in the media, newspaper, because that time I'm quite active as a young star in

01:31:52.860 - 01:32:04.990

Shanghai art scene. So I called them, you know, people from TV station or different newspaper, the edited––editor. I said, "What's going on?" He say, "Zhang Jian-jun, we didn't criticize you.

01:32:05.400 - 01:32:23.500

It's already––you are very lucky, because we know you. So, do you know how many people you–you angry to you, because they supposed that the show, the work should be selected, but they lost" because they're not qual––we don't think their work could qualify,

01:32:24.500 - 01:32:40.000

but they used to––they're always still working in the museum show, but they lost. And all the works not in center. So, I know I have a lot of a trouble, but–but, you know,

01:32:40.290 - 01:32:58.380

I–I say that––I just want to say Director Fang, he's so special. He made the Shanghai Art Museum can be become like a––the most contemporary art museum during that time. That time impossible in––you know that's first Shanghai biennial happen

01:32:58.600 - 01:33:14.870

in Shanghai Art Museum, that's also because that. And the first biennial open, and then the big conflict because they got in big trouble from a central––I don't think its central government, because that time already I'm not working for Shanghai Art Museum,

01:33:14.910 - 01:33:35.760

but Director Fang told me they get a lot of pressure from a–from a central art association because the exhibition had three installation, not only painting, and one is my work, "Tai Chi Disco." I did a video

01:33:36.450 - 01:33:52.680

installation, and Chen Zhen did a installation sculpture focusing on those corruption issues. And Gu Wenda--because the first biennial only three, it's mainly Chinese, only three

01:33:54.420 - 01:34:03.730

international but has the Chinese background, like I came from Shanghai. Chen Zhen also born in Shanghai. Gu Wenda, Shanghai, but later we went different countries.

01:34:04.160 - 01:34:21.420

America or France. So the first biennal, well, Mr. Fang, he want to be–be open, but also be a little bit political. You know, the cleverness have to be care about how to not make too much

01:34:21.910 - 01:34:42.880

noise, but still though making because a big trouble. Because my work, it's–it's–it's not that big issues, and people just don't like it or feel odd because of the video installation I call "Tai Chi Disco" and the––a video group

01:34:43.130 - 01:35:01.900

people are like old lady morning disco dance. Okay, it's–it's a practice of physical, but they play disco music, the '70s. That's very odd. I feel like disco's very individual, but here it's the disco music with whole

01:35:02.190 - 01:35:14.450

group complete movement. I feel like my time, that time, because I traveled that time, see the difference, I saw there's a––when I enter my statement for work, I say this sincerely misunderstanding.

01:35:15.800 - 01:35:33.880

So then on the floor, have all this bricks I collected from torn down from the Shikumen (Stone Warehouse Gate) buildings, and the center has a–a disco floor, the glass. The Tai Chi pattern, we––same pattern but with color following

01:35:34.050 - 01:35:52.250

the music changing pattern like disco dance. Very vibrant, very excitement. But then you also feel all the TVs surround–surround the whole room, and then you see the disco music, but you see all the movement like old ladies

01:35:52.860 - 01:36:10.540

practice. You should just feel like it's funny, it's odd, but also make people think about. And–and because for me, I left the China, that six years is empathy experience,

01:36:11.790 - 01:36:28.040

and ever since so strike when I went back. And I-I'm so surprise there's not many Chi––that time, no Chi––other artists, Chinese artists working on issues. I guess because people are living there, get used to it.

01:36:28.040 - 01:36:43.060

I suddenly jump back. I saw this old and new, tradition and modern, and East and West. There's no transition, squeezing together, that time during the early '90s, very strong.

01:36:44.140 - 01:36:59.630

And it's–it's so it's all the image and then, so that's I started working. But that's piece I showed in Shanghai Biennial, and but Chen Zhen get in more trouble because his

01:36:59.990 - 01:37:16.180

work, its big table with a lot of gamble things, gamble ticket. And then there's something like a lot of a statement on table, and then underneath all this chimney, like a 馬桶 (mǎtǒng) - toilet. And, so

01:37:17.430 - 01:37:33.930

yeah, that–that work has big-big conflict. So the museum get a––Shanghai Art Museum get a lot of pressure during that time. That '96, yeah. That's super interesting to hear.

01:37:34.210 - 01:37:50.800

So, did you feel a very big shock with the culture and art scene in Shanghai, like being a little bit controlled by propaganda and political? I–I–I think to be honest, like I'm not really shocked because I came

01:37:50.880 - 01:38:02.000

from grown up and seen so many. I've been through a lot. Even my gen––my life experience, I feel like my parents generation, usually my generation, people don't get that many,

01:38:02.320 - 01:38:15.090

like I be criticized by major newspapers say I have to be self-criticism, otherwise become doorman. I mean, not many people like my generation like that, so I don't feel surprised.

01:38:15.550 - 01:38:33.160

But when I shocked, when I surprised is when I––'89, I left until '95 when I return, I was shocked is this society changed tremendously, not only the building it's also

01:38:33.260 - 01:38:48.390

mentality and people's lifestyle and then––and people ego, the whole society. I mean, just like a––it's a very, in the other hand, very exciting. Good and bad at the same time.

01:38:51.460 - 01:39:10.680

So I become––I started using a lot of a document, a lot of those images through the time from, you know, like since '80, like middle '90s, I photo document lot of torn down Shikumen, and then document cultural tradition

01:39:10.700 - 01:39:28.660

things. And until nowadays, I've been document 20 years, so one day I'm gonna like thousands, thousands of those images. I mean, sometimes I showed it, only a few people really excited. And I had a one part of my installation

01:39:28.680 - 01:39:45.560

in the show in San Francisco Asian Art Museum is called "Mirage Garden." I showed about the Shanghai Garden Mir-Mir-Mirage Garden. So, I did some use some video and installation and

01:39:45.660 - 01:40:05.950

also some old house, the old bricks, and also there's many other things. I mean, this through my career have a lot of I did a work, but very interesting, like my artwork, my style is different than most artists,

01:40:06.320 - 01:40:21.480

because when I mentioned I work with a, like dialogue with nature, like rising sun or early time I work that's abstract painting. Very–very individual, but

01:40:22.340 - 01:40:38.350

like a––like the physics. But the other hand, at the same time, I working on the societal, like survey societal landscape. They both together, I always say since the '80s,

01:40:38.440 - 01:40:52.590

my work, since like that, like it––like breathing. Like, inhale and exhale. That's just the whole thing. It's my work. I'm usually people artist working on one style,

01:40:52.590 - 01:41:07.150

you keep working to develop. But my one direction is in the art with myself. So I say, I was just saying to myself, [inaudible] like my–my–myself breathing style. Inhale, exhale.

01:41:11.410 - 01:41:27.750

So, after the Shanghai Biennial, in what year did you decide to spend more time in the US? Become a–– I–I––since '89, I mainly stay in U.S.,

01:41:29.870 - 01:41:47.720

and–and then I, '95, I back to Shanghai to [coughs] to travel to visit to org––help organize part of a organize. And then '96 to join, participate in Shanghai Biennale. Later, every year, I back to Shanghai and visit my parents and

01:41:47.820 - 01:42:01.450

also meet some artist friend, also continue research my art project. Get and collected materials. But, back to New York, and because New York for me is very,

01:42:01.530 - 01:42:21.330

very important as artist, because I–I met lot of friend from different back––cultural background, because that's also is how to––I think New York's a really deep city. The place integrate from different mixed different cultures.

01:42:21.530 - 01:42:37.390

I mean, at least my experience. So, yeah, I met artist friend, I met, like you know, like zen master, and I also become '97, I started teaching

01:42:37.470 - 01:42:53.770

NYU. And so I, travel in the between, so went back to China more often is a, NYU since 2006, they open in Shanghai study away program.

01:42:53.770 - 01:43:10.110

So my boss found it, he said, "JJ, go Shanghai." He sent me back to Shanghai because he said, "Going there not only––" He said, "Only to you." He said, "Teaching art not–not just technique. It's how to adapt to different cultures.

01:43:10.870 - 01:43:25.800

You came from Shanghai, came from China, you came to America and you got into like, you know, like a contemporary art, like mainstream. You become a contemporary international artist, but those experiences, like the same you can share with the American

01:43:25.860 - 01:43:40.980

student going to China." And, because at that time, only American students. No Chinese students. So that's still study away program. Until 2010, NYU opened the Shanghai campus,

01:43:41.490 - 01:43:58.440

like four-year program. So then, there's a half Chinese students, half American students from NYU. So then I, in 2007, I started like a one semester in Shanghai, one semester

01:43:58.620 - 01:44:16.770

back to New York. Until 2010, I two semesters in New York, because become an Associate Professor for Shanghai, NYU Shanghai, so my–my–my place office from New York to move to Shanghai.

01:44:19.650 - 01:44:39.850

So as an artist, I'm sure you're very much––you pay a lot of attention to the idea of identity and culture and diaspora. So, how have the kind of immigration and migration to different

01:44:39.990 - 01:44:59.740

country impacted your work and your thought processes? Good question. It's because that gave me a lot of chance to see myself and see the people, see people in different background, and see

01:44:59.800 - 01:45:20.170

people––it's even in the difference, is we do have a any similarity. That's when I did a big project started in 2019 from Royal Academy London and later Wu Hung curated

01:45:20.170 - 01:45:37.660

the travel show in different museums called "Human Traces". But that's a long story, I send you if you are interested. I don't know your time [laughs]. And–and also, it's a, you also, the question also reminds me like identity

01:45:39.110 - 01:45:56.610

and migration, immigrant, or what who I am, and in beginning, first few years, I'm very much like, you know, if I think from '89 to '94, my work still like very much influenced by Zen and Daoism, nature,

01:45:57.160 - 01:46:12.400

and from painting two dimensions down to three dimensions, and using water, and down to become a sculpture. And then, did a earthwork, because in Djerassi Sculpture Park in near–near San Francisco.

01:46:13.150 - 01:46:29.950

This place, being––I be invited do the park in the–in the public art. There's a spot––this is the spot I always, almost every day, they have a fog come down. So I–I did a work I want to deal with––work directly with the

01:46:30.010 - 01:46:49.410

fog. So, in the pond, it's there like 50 meter long, and then with water and with ink, and then north, south, east, west, I put it four tree trunks, like each one have 6 meters, and covered by rice

01:46:49.470 - 01:47:10.710

paper and hanging. The center have hanging on the rock. And then, when the fog come down, and then, museum drop ice, dry ice, to cause the steam to mix. Later, the fog come down more and more, and then the steam it

01:47:10.880 - 01:47:21.810

also came more dramatically. Then the whole place, you only see the white. Sky, the ground, all white. The center, the stream more white move, and after two hours,

01:47:21.890 - 01:47:38.150

slowly clear it up. You will see Pacific Ocean behind. So, I did a lot of work, even from painting to installation, but still, it's very nature, Oriental or Chinese tradition cultural influence.

01:47:38.570 - 01:47:54.470

Until '95, I mentioned that point––turning point: I met Bernie Glassman, and then, a lot of work involved soci–societal landscape. And then, I–I don't

01:47:54.790 - 01:48:09.870

feel like, say, I has to be Chinese artist. I mean, yes, I'm Chinese. I look like Chinese. My language, if you like––if our interview, I can speak Chinese, I probably can talk more [laughs] more freely.

01:48:10.770 - 01:48:24.320

But, yes, but then, I'm not only Chinese. I'm limiting myself Chinese artist. I think I'm an artist. I'm a contemporary artist. I'm interested to see the different culture,

01:48:24.320 - 01:48:43.760

how to absorb together, how to integrate, or how even dialogue. And, you know, that sometimes makes me recall when I was at Dunhuang Cave in 1979, I thought even the–the content, the images the same,

01:48:44.270 - 01:49:03.150

Shakyamuni and also Buddhist stories, but the style different, through different time, from different ethnics. So the culture can be crossed, can be dialed up, can be emerge dependent on the artist, how

01:49:03.210 - 01:49:16.480

you-your–your choice. So that's––I very much en-enjoy when I was that long time in New York. That's so important for me.

01:49:17.040 - 01:49:29.280

And then later, like a lot of a artist friend come to visit, and I said, "Yes, you can of course go to MoMA, Guggenheim, Metropolitan Museum. There's a lot of art galleries good.

01:49:29.360 - 01:49:45.650

But, also spend a little time just to have a coffee, sitting on the side, to just watching people. The people the culture, where the art came from, lifestyle, culture. And then you will see, meet different people,

01:49:45.810 - 01:50:06.130

different languages, different accent, and different lifestyle. That together, that's New York." [laughs] So that's very strong, strongly wildly influenced my artwork, because a lot of my artwork have those a

01:50:06.170 - 01:50:22.470

dialogue. Or later, I say the word––I'm––my work is a balance between difference. Yeah, thank you for collaborating on that. And it's fascinating you've brought up the term societal

01:50:22.710 - 01:50:41.840

landscape many times, and maybe it's a good opportunity to––I ask you to collaborate––I mean, elaborate on that concept? Societal landscape, of course, people will say landscape is beach or mountain or a tree or a street.

01:50:42.540 - 01:51:02.950

When I talk about societal landscape, it's a–it's a–it's a–it's a include culture, include events, include political, include lifestyle, human, humanity. So,

01:51:03.090 - 01:51:19.700

for instance, I, like, I can give it again examples, like "Envoy of Peace," that piece I did in 1995. That's a international issues, is a political,

01:51:20.160 - 01:51:40.160

historical issues. But I'm not just a political issue, I just repeat that or as a document but on how to absorb, how to translate, how put art as your statement into it, into this project. So I came out "Envoy of Peace,"

01:51:40.200 - 01:51:56.070

I bring everyone. People don't know each other. Even I don't know who they are and how they draw. But we put the dove––I design the ideas, and then later, all the wish from people from all around the world

01:51:57.060 - 01:52:10.920

line down Hiroshima flow. So, some like for Chinese––focus on Chinese tradition, like for instance, like I said landscape, societal landscape.

01:52:11.220 - 01:52:31.810

I did a one "Mirage Garden" in San Francisco Asian Art Museum. A similar project I showed at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, and–and also in China, I did a few museum show like–like–like that.

01:52:33.220 - 01:52:50.700

And, like culture has to be changing. How to be missing––sorry, outside some motorcycle. Did you hear the noise [laughs]? That's Venice Beach,

01:52:51.080 - 01:53:07.130

part of it. So, and also "Human Traces," also, I would say that's really much like a part of a-a landscape, societal landscape,

01:53:07.170 - 01:53:23.910

because the human traces, I'm not only draw people from different culture, from different background. And yes, I made the whole museum looks like archaeology site, and all the drawing, the edges torn.

01:53:24.690 - 01:53:36.010

It's like a male, females and from different ethnic I met, even in London. I started in London, but I––in British museum, a lot of antiques, and people I met in street,

01:53:36.810 - 01:53:53.780

and from different migration––immigrant, and I asked three question, same questions for everyone I have record: what is your happiest experience in your life? What is your saddest experience in your life?

01:53:54.720 - 01:54:11.270

The third one, what do you want to say to people in 100 years in the future? So, once I record––I mean for the exhibition, those recorded voices, I editing the speakers. Sometimes you walk–you walk into the museum space,

01:54:11.270 - 01:54:26.520

you heard one people talking. You get closer, you heard more clearly, otherwise just some–sometimes you heard five people talking. You think they're random with all the images. People from different culture from different people.

01:54:26.970 - 01:54:45.710

And some from the antique, from then like, you know, hundreds years, thousand years, those images. It's all together. I almost like want to survey our human, including ourselves. And then, in–in the end,

01:54:47.370 - 01:55:07.400

past this room, you will see the mirror glass section, the different angle. They'll only see yourself in different angles. Like when we first we look at it, we survey this society, and then suddenly, you only can look yourself.

01:55:06.120 - 01:55:21.250

In the end, there's big room, three wall, there's a three questions on the wall. So people write it down, the question on the wall. So I, if I was in the–in the show, in the gallery room of the museum,

01:55:21.270 - 01:55:32.900

I document, or assistant or people in museum document. So every day, more and more, lot of stories, very interesting. And then, it's thousands covered, so I have a lot documented.

01:55:32.920 - 01:55:49.740

That's really––reflect people in different backgrounds and all time. For instance, like a––in 2002, I started the project.

01:55:50.230 - 01:56:03.100

People, a lot of people do, 'What do you want to say to people in 100 years?' A lot of people answer is stop killing each other, because that time have 9/11, have Iraq war. In 2019, I did it in–in

01:56:03.990 - 01:56:18.810

London. People, a lot of people, is more concerned, talk about 100 years, so what do you want people––talk to people a hundred years? Said, ecology, because we're all concerned our environment. But–but nowadays change.

01:56:20.540 - 01:56:36.570

So, that's really connect. It's because from this audience, their personal voice, you––when put together, you really see is their different ethnic, different background, different culture back––different religions,

01:56:36.570 - 01:56:53.440

is any similarity. And then, you always see what is our society mostly covered the issues. Because for instance, like, you know, 100 years, if we see some image from 100 years ago, people left,

01:56:53.620 - 01:57:14.210

people talk about their life, talk about––imagine with us, with our life. You see, that's–that's the link. We are–we are part of the link in human history. It almost makes us, when we're doing this archival interview,

01:57:14.490 - 01:57:32.980

feel like part of the landscape process. We're recording your experiences as your life history, and many others as well [JZ laughs]. I actually also want to put Houston into our conversation given the way

01:57:33.920 - 01:57:54.220

we are so honored to have you in our current exhibition that's ongoing at Asia Society, and also you have shown at Houston many times, in addition to your many phenomenal inclusion in really established

01:57:54.220 - 01:58:09.130

art institutions like the MET, the Metropolitan Museum and beyond. We just want to see how Houston has become part of your life, and how–how we are accommodating your art and so on.

01:58:11.360 - 01:58:32.370

It's lovely, because you–you talk about it bring me back like 20 years ago, I had a first show in Houston, 2003 and in Barbara Davis Gallery and–and then DiverseWorks space, art space. The––I showed

01:58:33.120 - 01:58:51.850

number of project is there, and also, I get a very good support and–and people's lovely, and also, there's beautiful museum collections. Really, I mean, including Asia Society, but also like a

01:58:52.840 - 01:59:06.840

lot of beautiful, you know, and also, Rothko Chapel, the Chapel of Rothko. It's amazing. Then, this time after 20 years, I'm back to again. Each time, I shock.

01:59:06.840 - 01:59:16.360

I mean like it's complete and flat, like you know, that's powerful. So, yeah,

01:59:16.480 - 01:59:35.580

and the Asia Society show, that's first time I showed Asia Society. I'm very happy the curator, and she choose this work. And so, with a group Chinese artist in the show, and then also, I went to the–the opening of, and

01:59:35.580 - 01:59:55.080

I thought how to displayed for the site, they did very professional. And I, yeah, I'm very, very happy, very enjoyed, and hope––I hope the–the audience in Houston would like my work or–or enjoy [laughs].

01:59:57.440 - 02:00:15.700

And because I showed one work is "Rubbing Planet," it's also it's like more like my dialogue with universe. And because the work, the "Rubbing Planet" in–in physical, like it's impossible to realize,

02:00:16.210 - 02:00:37.720

but in the emphatic way, in–in–in–in the dramatic, romantic, poetic way to combine, to realize. I think–I think that's back to my Tang Dynasty poetry or–or–or some those experience.

02:00:37.800 - 02:00:57.090

I think, you know, because that's the artwork–that's the artwork. You know, I'm–I'm–I'm––but I'm also very happy I thought about tracing, because tracing is a function. It's traditional ancient function, but I play with using that to become a

02:00:57.300 - 02:01:15.020

link between contemporary to past. Contact between reality to metaphysics. So that's––I start to

02:01:15.060 - 02:01:34.380

tracing in my art projects 2011, like in the beginning I mentioned that in Venice Beach. Yeah, we're so honored to have you in Houston, and we'll con––hope that we'll continue to be able to support your work and––

02:01:34.900 - 02:01:51.840

Thank you. I really, really looking forward. Yes, and then, yeah, that's a lovely experience. I'm looking forward back soon [laughs]. So wonderful. And I guess we're coming to the end of our interview,

02:01:52.220 - 02:02:10.090

and I also want to pop the same question that you were asking to your survey. So how would you like to be remembered, and both as an artist or as a human being, as a––yes, so, I guess a so-social person [laughs]?

02:02:12.250 - 02:02:31.740

Oh. Wow. I-I think, yeah, it's like a–a, I would say, a very truly creative in the individual artistic way

02:02:32.880 - 02:02:51.400

to create my artworks, with artistic style. Because, like I mentioned, they usually, people work on one direction, but for me, my one direction's in art,

02:02:52.800 - 02:03:07.740

like inhale and exhale, like my breathing, like inside a dialogue with nature, universe. Also, I survey the society. So that's my very unique personal, artistic personal style.

02:03:08.440 - 02:03:23.660

So I hope people realize, people in the future, enjoy it. That's wonderful. Thank you so much. And is there anything else you would like to add for this interview?

02:03:24.580 - 02:03:40.900

No I–I–I–I–I hope–I hope I'm not like a blah–blah–blah, talk too–too [laughs] too much, but thank you very much. Thank you for your time to interview me. You have very interesting questions and brought me a lot of good memories

02:03:41.330 - 02:03:57.090

or–or some deep memories, and it's given me a chance to look back on myself, even from my childhood. Thank you for this. You give me this opportunity. Not at all. Thank you for your time, and I–I believe it was pretty thorough,

02:03:57.190 - 02:04:14.570

and we're–we're so honored to have it on record. Yeah, okay. And also, yeah, if you like, would like, I can email you some images if you––or any other images or the artwork I––we mentioned, we talked about––