00:00:01.930 - 00:00:15.330

KL: Before we dive into all of the parenting related questions, would you mind just KL: introducing yourself briefly? JT: Yeah, for sure. So my name is Jason Tarn, the lead English JT: pastor over at Houston Chinese Church.

00:00:15.800 - 00:00:34.850

JT: And yeah, so I am married to my wife, Theresa, for JT: 18 years and we have two daughters. JT: We have a 12 year old and a two-two year old—two and a half year old. JT: So yeah, it's a-it's an interesting dynamic there with such a large age gap between the

00:00:34.850 - 00:00:51.400

JT: two of them. But yeah, I think the-the Lord knew what he was JT: doing, even though for us, you know, we didn't-we didn't know exactly his JT: plans for us. We've always wanted a larger family, but only, you know, He only really JT: provided us one for many years.

00:00:51.400 - 00:01:08.400

JT: And then back in 2020, during the pandemic, the start of the pandemic, the Lord JT: just really surprised us and blessed us with–with our second daughter. JT: So, yeah, she was born at the end of 2020. JT: Yeah. So that's-that's me—grew up here in Houston, and I've

00:01:08.400 - 00:01:24.100

JT: been at this church since I was-I was actually the same JT: age as my oldest daughter, I was 12 when I first started coming to Houston Chinese JT: Church, living close by. JT: And my first job out of college was actually working with

00:01:24.180 - 00:01:40.760

JT: youth here at HCC. JT: And then in 2011, after doing my seminary studies, I moved back to JT: Houston with my oldest daughter, just as a little baby, JT: and my-my wife and I moved back here to be closer to family and I

00:01:40.760 - 00:01:57.330

JT: started working at HCC, as—in the English speaking JT: congregation. And now after 12 years, I'm still in that same JT: church, same congregation, but it's in a different role now—the lead English JT: pastor role. So yeah, that's me.

00:01:58.190 - 00:02:10.010

KL: Amazing. Thanks. KL: It's really cool to hear that you had, like, your one child for such a long time, but then KL: you got the surprise. JT: Yeah, it's, you know, it's-it's a tough year for everyone, right?

00:02:10.010 - 00:02:22.730

JT: It was like, you know, the worst year for so many people. JT: But for us, we're like, "Wow, this year ended great." [KL: And it was nothing.] JT: Yeah, exactly. JT: You know, notwithstanding just how Covid is wrecking our society, but just for us as a

00:02:22.770 - 00:02:35.510

JT: family, we were like, wow, get this little baby. JT: And then-and then I'm still working from home, so I could be able to be really JT: available to help. JT: And so, it was just a real great timing for us, even though, you know,

00:02:35.570 - 00:02:53.850

JT: granted, it was very difficult for-for the-for the rest of us, you know, as a city, JT: as a society. But yeah, as a personal experience, yeah, that was a real blessing. KL: That's great. Could–so to start, I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit KL: about how you were raised [JT: Yeah.] and your parents' parenting style.

00:02:54.490 - 00:03:11.600

JT: Okay, great. So yeah, I was raised by first generation JT: immigrant parents. They are the generation born JT: in China, but early—at a very early age for both JT: of them, their families fled to Taiwan.

00:03:11.600 - 00:03:29.260

JT: It was during, you know-you know, the end of the World War II. JT: So they're the generation of Chinese, you know, transferred over JT: to Taiwan, grew up in Taiwan, eventually, you know, had JT: opportunities after college to come to the States for grad-grad

00:03:29.870 - 00:03:47.480

JT: school in the early 70s. JT: And so they came here for higher education, eventually JT: both found jobs in the energy industry, so that's how we ended up in JT: Houston. So both my parents worked for energy companies.

00:03:47.960 - 00:04:04.280

JT: And yeah, so I was-I was, you know, I have an older brother, JT: three-three years older than-than myself. JT: And we were both born late 70s, and so I grew up, you know, grew up in the JT: 80s, 90s here in Houston with immigrant first-generation

00:04:05.140 - 00:04:23.460

JT: parents. But I would say for, you know, there's a JT: spectrum of like Chinese immigrant parents where, on one JT: end, they're stressing like cultural preservation, like,"I really want to make JT: sure that my kids, you know, know their Chinese and value the fact that they're

00:04:23.460 - 00:04:37.580

JT: Chinese and embrace that we only speak Chinese to them and, you know, forcing them JT: to learn the language and to appreciate the culture," that's-that's like that's on one JT: end, a cultural preservation and on the other end of the spectrum, it's more cultural JT: assimilation. It's like, "hey, we are here in America.

00:04:38.130 - 00:04:50.160

JT: You know, our kids are American. JT: We want them to be raised as as as Americans and to-to really assimilate well into JT: American society." If that's the spectrum, I would definitely say my parents lean more on the assimilation

00:04:50.210 - 00:05:03.530

side, the cultural assimilation, as opposed to cultural preservation. And so, I think that speaks to the fact that how long they were in the States before I came around like, you know, I mean, less than a decade, but they were already pretty established in the States.

00:05:03.870 - 00:05:18.970

Like I said, their careers were in corporate America, so they were being exposed to Western culture, American culture, very early on, you know, being forced to learn the language. And so they were pretty proficient in English compared to like my-my-my other

00:05:19.030 - 00:05:30.660

friends who had Chinese immigrant parents. I would say like, they would always joke about how good the English was for my parents, like when they would call and my mom would answer. They're confused because they're like, they thought they were calling like, you know,

00:05:30.660 - 00:05:45.860

some-some white family. And it's actually just my mom answering the phone and just like her perfect English. So, they actually never forced us to speak Chinese in the home, like they would speak Chinese to each other, like they speak Mandarin to each other.

00:05:45.970 - 00:06:02.330

And I could unders—I mean, even to this day, I can generally understand basic conversational Mandarin like stuff you would talk about in the home, but like, they never expected us to reply to them in Chinese. They did send us to Chinese school like, you know, Saturday morning Chinese school.

00:06:02.400 - 00:06:18.990

And I hated it. I rebelled against that. And they were, you know, they still wanted me to learn it, but they weren't so strict to the point where, like, at some point I was able to negotiate my way out of going to Chinese school. So, yeah, and then when it comes to like American

00:06:19.250 - 00:06:36.080

pop culture, you know, growing up in the 80s and 90s, like, yeah, they were actually pretty hands off I guess, when it comes to just allowing me to be exposed to a lot of just, you know, pop culture. And so yeah, just grew up a kid, a kid of the 80s and all those, all the things that

00:06:36.080 - 00:06:51.970

any other American kid growing up, in that generation would have been exposed to. Things even in the home. It's like, yeah, obviously, you know, the real basic things in terms of maybe the decor seems a little bit more like a Chinese immigrant family, in the home.

00:06:52.090 - 00:07:07.590

And of course, you know, no one's wearing shoes and things like that. But even if you're in the kitchen, like I would say, my mom growing up, I'm thinking back, I don't think it was exclusively Chinese, you know, food in the home. She-she would actually try to, you know, make us non-Chinese

00:07:09.280 - 00:07:21.680

meals and prepare these dishes. Even to this day, like, I think she's pretty proficient to be able to make things that aren't just Chinese dishes. And, my-my school lunch growing up, like it was never, you know, I

00:07:21.680 - 00:07:37.560

had friends, you know, bringing in, like, you know, you know, you know, the uniquely Chinese dishes and, you know, having to be teased about that. I mean, my mom just made me like, peanut butter jelly sandwiches like any other, you know, American kid. I had just regular, like, American school lunches.

00:07:37.950 - 00:07:53.110

And-and then, you know, we would always frequent American restaurants. So I wasn't deprived of that kind of an experience of-of, you know, going to, you know, Fuddruckers. I mean that's a little Texas-Houston-or like TGI Fridays or Bennigan's.

00:07:53.280 - 00:08:09.450

Those are the kind of restaurants that like even my-my grandparents, m-my paternal grandparents who ended up moving to Houston as well, like they're the ones like every Sunday night we would go out to eat with them, and it's my-my grandmother actually wanting to go to like these Chili's, Bennigan's.

00:08:10.700 - 00:08:20.800

But she doesn't want like Chinese. She wants to try American food. So, like, that was my exposure every single, you know, Sunday night we go out to eat and it's always these, you know, these-these-these, you know, American

00:08:20.800 - 00:08:33.400

restaurants. So anyways, that's kind of the experience that I had. So I would say that they definitely were more lenient than the stereotypical Chinese American Chinese immigrant parent. They did care about academics.

00:08:34.220 - 00:08:48.320

I think that's-that's a given. But, and they didn't care so much about like, sports, like, so I wasn't, you know, encouraged or even given opportunities to sign up for Little League and all these kind of things.

00:08:48.960 - 00:08:59.160

I mean, you know, if I didn't express the interest, it wasn't like they were looking for these, you know, because like nowadays, like parents are going to be like pushing their kids to do try all these different sports. Like we you know, we even talk about that later.

00:08:59.330 - 00:09:11.740

We even do that a little bit. But not so much. My parents are like, "Hey, you didn't ask for it." We weren't going to–we weren't going to, you know, encourage that or even thought about it. But–but I would say there is one thing that was very American that they really wanted me,

00:09:11.740 - 00:09:27.860

my brother, to do, which was Boy Scouts. Like-like my-my parents were like, "Hey, we want you to be part of Boy Scouts." And it's-it wasn't something that we asked for, but they just kind of signed us up for that. And they-they actually pushed us for that one activity

00:09:27.860 - 00:09:41.160

to like. Really we, both me and my brother, made it all the way to Eagle Scout. And you know, that's—that took a lot of-of-of encouragement a-and pressure from my parents. But that was like probably the one thing where they were like, "Hey, just do that,

00:09:41.240 - 00:09:58.650

finish that." You know, but other things like musical instruments, things like that. I mean, yeah, like they-they exposed me to those things. But if I showed interest, you know, like, you know, that's great, but at some point, you know, they didn't really push me that hard to have to

00:09:58.690 - 00:10:11.390

learn how to play these instruments or things like that. So, I would say they're definitely more lenient, especially since they didn't grow up with any kind of faith background. Yet they were very open and allowing me and my brother to go

00:10:11.390 - 00:10:26.260

to church, which was Houston Chinese Church. But we both as teenagers, started going because we live close by. We had friends invite us and yeah, they like from-from my experience, they would just drop me off Friday nights for church youth group Fellowship and on

00:10:26.370 - 00:10:39.990

Sunday mornings, since we live so close, they were at least open to that, even though they didn't share any of those faith convictions. And I would say they never really pressured me towards like, you have to be a doctor or an engineer or any of those kind of stereotypical like forcing me down a

00:10:39.990 - 00:10:52.140

particular narrow career track. They're actually very American and Western in the sense of like, yeah, you know, "you should do what you want," you know? They-now I mean if you wanna talk about that later, like, when it came to me finally like

00:10:52.140 - 00:11:05.120

saying, "I want to be in Christian vocational ministry," now that was something that, you know, they were like, "Oh, okay. We weren't expecting that," but they definitely weren't like, "You have to be a doctor. You have to be, you know, a lawyer" or anything like that.

00:11:05.120 - 00:11:21.430

I didn't get that kind of stereotypical pressure from them. So yeah, I would say that's my parents' general parenting style, which I would—from my understanding, is a bit more lenient, more hands off than the stereotypical Chinese immigrant parent.

00:11:22.870 - 00:11:39.220

You were curious about how that affects my parenting style as well, or— KL: Yeah [JT: Do you have any other questions about—] we can stop right there. KL: [JT: Yeah.] I was wondering to what extent would you say that this type of like, KL: pretty intense, like assimilation was atypical because I know you mentioned like,

00:11:39.310 - 00:11:56.020

KL: okay, your friends would be made fun of, not you, but recently I had talked KL: to a professor who actually was saying like that tiger parent, like, stereotype that KL: everyone has wasn't quite as common for him either. KL: So, would you say that, like, around you tiger parents, like, stereotype prevailed but

00:11:56.020 - 00:12:10.690

KL: not? JT: Yeah probably not the s— This, again, based on my understanding with tiger parenting is JT: today, it probably wasn't as intense, but definitely there were those aspects of JT: it that I could see in some of my peers and their experience with their parents and maybe

00:12:10.710 - 00:12:24.640

JT: the complaints that they're-that they have of their parents and their experience growing JT: up. So yes, I would say that I feel like my parents were definitely JT: more Americanized. JT: I would—I'd be, you know, very confident.

00:12:24.640 - 00:12:46.410

JT: I think they were out of-in comparison, they'd be more Americanized, more lenient. JT: So I-I didn't have a very bad taste in my mouth when it comes to JT: like thinking about my parents as being authoritarian and just being so like, JT: all they want from me is just to, like, straight A's-I mean, yeah, like, yeah, they

00:12:46.480 - 00:12:58.040

JT: didn't like it when I didn't bring home A's, but I never felt like this, you know, the JT: real stereotypical like, oh, I'm gonna, you're gonna be punished now if you don't JT: bring home A's, it has to be A-plus. JT: I mean, they were really happy with me if I just got, like, an A-minus.

00:12:58.040 - 00:13:10.200

JT: So, like, "Oh, awesome. That's great." You know? JT: I mean, so they were never, like, so American they like—they would never celebrate JT: a B or a C, you know? JT: But at the same time, I did not feel like real

00:13:11.420 - 00:13:28.890

JT: pressure that I was, like, disappointing them or letting the family down because I JT: brought home, you know, less than straight A's or anything like that. JT: So yeah, so I've always had the impression growing up that JT: they were more Americanized than my peers-than my other like

00:13:29.010 - 00:13:45.050

JT: Asian American peers. KL: Do you feel like this openness to just not only KL: Western culture, but just a lot of things like you're saying, even faith and all of KL: those things-can you attribute that openness to anything in their stories and

00:13:45.050 - 00:13:57.360

KL: their immigrant stories that sets them apart? JT: That's why they would be so open to allowing me to experience those things? JT: [KL: Yes.] That's a good question. Yeah. JT: I mean, when have tried to talk to them about

00:13:57.720 - 00:14:09.860

JT: faith, they seem to actually, like respond in a very, like JT: modern, atheistic response where I wouldn't really, you know, JT: like they're like, "You know what? JT: Anyone can believe what they want to believe.

00:14:10.340 - 00:14:22.470

JT: Like you shouldn't have to, like, you know, like evangelize to them or tell them." I JT: mean, I was like, "Oh, this is weird. JT: Like, this is what I expected, like, you know, the response I get from, like, some JT: kind of, you know, college student." And they're they're very like, you know, they're

00:14:22.470 - 00:14:37.530

JT: modern, post-modern, and they're kind of very relativistic in their view of like, JT: religious truth and things like that. JT: So I don't know, maybe-maybe that's partly where they weren't-they JT: weren't threatened by the fact that I was going to church simply because they didn't

00:14:37.530 - 00:14:54.510

JT: have very deep rooted convictions themselves. JT: And I guess also—well, in the end, just like any im-any JT: Asian parent, they-they want their kid to to, JT: you know, to be a good kid and have good morals.

00:14:55.770 - 00:15:15.070

And so I guess they thought, "Well, if our boys are going to church on a Friday night, it's better than them doing–doing something, you know, illegal or or dangerous, hanging out, you know, at someone's house or something." So, I guess they were just far more inclined knowing that in their minds, going to church was

00:15:15.250 - 00:15:29.940

a-was a very, you know, moralistic and generally safe environment to be in. So that–that probably also contributed a lot to their openness for us to be involved. Because when it finally actually started to impact my life choices, like later on when I

00:15:29.940 - 00:15:46.460

wanted to go into to be a missionary or to eventually be a pastor, like definitely that's when they weren't as open as those days when they were simply just dropping me off to youth group, right. I mean they're far more open to that than when they're like, "Whoa, whoa, you're taking this really seriously." So, yeah, I mean, that's-that's

00:15:46.850 - 00:16:02.860

where I would imagine some of the factors for why they were okay with, at least when it comes to me exploring faith during those teen years. KL: That makes sense. So it's more like practical reasons. KL: [JT: Yeah.] Like, "He's not doing anything bad at this point."

00:16:04.390 - 00:16:14.340

JT: That's my impression. [laughs] KL: I got that. That makes sense. KL: So I guess then, kind of piggybacking now to you now, do you feel like you see KL: similarities in your parenting style with your daughters?

00:16:15.580 - 00:16:29.620

JT: I think so, yeah. JT: And for me, a lot of it-I'll just speak from the experience of raising my-my oldest JT: daughter, who's 12, right. I mean, you know, a lot of this is-is just from-from that JT: particular experience of her going through, you know, the early a-age.

00:16:30.190 - 00:16:47.640

JT: And now she's kind of in a pre-teen age. JT: And I would say, yeah, like—yeah, I mean, I value JT: my Chinese heritage. I do want my kids to do the same. JT: But I think, like my parents, I would not, and don't think I

00:16:47.640 - 00:17:05.050

JT: have, and don't plan on like intentionally leaning hard towards cultural JT: preservation. Like, oh, you know, like-like I've had obviously friends JT: growing up where they were-they were given the expectation that you are going to marry a JT: Chinese person, right. You know, I mean, my parents, I don't think they ever mentioned

00:17:05.050 - 00:17:21.510

JT: that to me. And then I never had any-I mean, I did end up marrying a Chinese American, but JT: there was not any kind of like expectation given to me, JT: anything explicit that I could remember. JT: And so in the same way, like I don't plan on that or, like, expect like-you need to,

00:17:21.900 - 00:17:37.980

JT: you know, preserve our Chinese culture, you know, into your family, into your, JT: you know, my future grandkids, like all that. JT: I just–that's because and probably is-probably because of the way my parents JT: raised me, where I value it, but it's not such a

00:17:37.980 - 00:17:49.900

JT: high priority where I'm putting kind of expectations or pressure on my JT: kids. Now, I mean, we do worship in a Chinese heritage church and we worship, and I serve in Houston Chinese Church.

00:17:50.350 - 00:18:09.160

So, on one hand, I mean, I got that going for me where that-they're going to be exposed to a lot of Chinese culture just simply by the-by the-by the nature of our church. But, you know, the main goal for why we're at Houston Chinese Church is not because I really want my kids to have Chinese American friends.

00:18:09.670 - 00:18:24.420

And so that's the main reason why we're here. No. Now, that could be a reason why some people actually do come to our church and-or some why-some of the–some of the youth might start coming to our church, even if their parents aren't Christians. Like myself, like I came to Houston Chinese Church

00:18:24.420 - 00:18:39.180

because, wow, there's a lot of, like, Chinese Americans here that I could actually, you know, befriend that—even though by the time I got to high school, I went to a high school where there was a good group of of Chinese Americans. But, like in middle school, yeah, I barely knew any Chinese Americans.

00:18:39.180 - 00:18:55.860

And so it was at HCC where-where I was able to meet these people and-and kind of explore some of that identity there. So, even though I hope my-my daughters get some of the benefit of being in a–in a Chinese heritage church, like, to preserve

00:18:55.860 - 00:19:10.230

Chinese culture was not the main goal. And for them to be befriended and have their friendship circles just be Chinese American was not the main goal. The reason why we're here is mainly because, like I said before, I grew up in this church, so I have a personal connection to HCC and we do also have-both me

00:19:10.230 - 00:19:26.370

and my wife have the hope that our non-believing Chinese immigrant parents will one day become Christians or at least show more spiritual interest. And if they are going to, then of course, us being at Houston Chinese Church is a great way for them to be exposed and–and to be able to worship with us.

00:19:26.480 - 00:19:40.040

So that's my prayer. Like one day that, you know-you know, all three generations on both my side and my and-my wife's side, we're all worshiping together at this church. So that's probably really why we're here, more so than the the

00:19:40.040 - 00:19:55.790

preservation of culture component. So, for example, I've never sent my kid to Chinese school, like to learn Chinese language school. Even though our church does have an afternoon–Sunday afternoon Chinese language school that she could be sent to, I-just me and my wife have no

00:19:56.080 - 00:20:13.150

priority to send her to that. We do want to expose them to aspects of Chinese-of our Chinese heritage and culture that-that-that we as well enjoy and embrace. But if it's not something that we already embrace, then I'm not going to like, expect

00:20:13.200 - 00:20:25.750

her to be even more Chinese than me. So, I mean, I still love the food. I-I-we frequent Chinatown all the time. And so, yeah, my-my-think-I would-my-actually, my oldest daughter's

00:20:25.750 - 00:20:40.170

favorite kind of food now is actually Korean food. But you know, she loves noodles too. So she loves, you know, you know, going to-beef noodle soup and things like that. But so, yeah, the food is definitely there where we-we're glad

00:20:40.170 - 00:20:56.490

that they-they really appreciate it. And of course certain values that-that are still important to me and my wife. You know, the importance of family, the importance of relational trust, things like that. I would still say that, you know, I learned that and it was, you

00:20:56.490 - 00:21:10.940

know, modeled that from my parents. And those are some of the things that I still want to, you know, pass on, but to a degree, right? So like, even though we enjoy Chinese food as a family, like,

00:21:11.160 - 00:21:29.360

of course we're never going to be like exclusively Chinese food, right? We-we're exposed to, you know, we expose our kids to, to a whole wide range of-of cuisines. And then, of course, like we stress the importance of family, but I don't think, like, familial piety in it's like, you know, traditional sense, that's

00:21:29.360 - 00:21:39.390

something that I'm going to be, like, pushing hard on for my kids. Even though like, yeah, I want them to honor their father and mother. But, so I guess so. So-so to a degree, right.

00:21:39.850 - 00:21:55.920

And we care about academics for our-our-our kids. But as Christians, I mean, we care about their character so much more and I'll talk a little bit later about some of the school choices that we've made for that, you know, with that very priority in mind.

00:21:56.330 - 00:22:11.240

So yeah, I think with my parents raising me in such a way where I do see some similarities. Obviously the faith component is going to be the different-the difference because, you know-didn't-wasn't raised with any kind of faith component.

00:22:12.630 - 00:22:25.870

But yeah, so that's—but-but when it comes to some of the-the attitude towards Chinese culture, I would say, you know, just a lot of it unconsciously, right? Just-just kind of modeled what-what I was exposed to. KL: That's really interesting.

00:22:26.330 - 00:22:41.330

KL: So it definitely seems that-that like attitude towards culture is something that KL: you have taken directly almost from your parents and the way you were raised. JT: Yeah, as I was thinking about-I was like, "Yeah, I guess so." You know, I mean, this JT: is-I'm great–It's great that you're asking these questions because it's actually forcing

00:22:41.330 - 00:22:53.140

JT: me to think more about it, right? JT: And so I really appreciate even the opportunity to kind of ponder about, "Oh JT: yeah, guess have been-have been kind of raising my daughters in a similar fashion JT: in some ways." Yeah.

00:22:53.140 - 00:23:07.620

KL: Yeah, for sure. Do you feel like there's something that you can kind of think of from KL: your experience growing up that you kind of explicitly have changed from KL: the way that your parents parented? JT: Good question.

00:23:07.680 - 00:23:20.830

JT: Good question. Yeah, I JT: mean, I would say I'd say affection. JT: Expressing affection. JT: That's definitely different.

00:23:21.150 - 00:23:30.990

JT: My wife's family, they do actually express. JT: So, there's two daughters in her family. JT: And maybe that has to do with my parents raising two boys. JT: Her parents raising two daughters.

00:23:31.400 - 00:23:48.730

JT: That might have to do with it, but they are definitely they're more verbally expressive JT: of their affection, you know, with each other. JT: I mean, like, to be honest, like, I can't recall, JT: like many other Asian, Chinese Americans or Asian Americans, I can't

00:23:48.730 - 00:24:03.240

JT: recall my parents ever saying I love you. JT: Or, you know, using those words, or like, you know, we don't—that's not JT: normal in our, you know, family life growing up. JT: Not that I question their love.

00:24:03.540 - 00:24:18.490

JT: It's just that it wasn't expressed verbally that way. JT: It's totally different now. JT: You know, growing up with my kids, you know, learning even how my JT: wife's family communicates affection verbally and now with-with

00:24:18.490 - 00:24:33.450

JT: my kids. And the thing is that, like, now I see my parents, like my-my-my dad, JT: because he has these two granddaughters and he's so affectionate with them. And I'm like, "Dude, what happened?" Like, why are you so affectionate now? And you're willing to say "I love you" now?

00:24:33.450 - 00:24:41.370

Like, I never got any of that. So I think, you know, obviously having a grandkid is different than having your own kid, you know? You know, it's all-it's all the good stuff.

00:24:41.370 - 00:24:58.810

It's all the fun stuff. None of the responsibility to discipline them. So I think that's where he's just-he's just far more free now to-to-to show affection. But I think that's that's one thing where like, yeah, that's a generational thing. That's a cultural difference as well where for them they just never, you know, they

00:24:58.910 - 00:25:12.310

always showed their love. They never expressed their love, you know, explicitly, right. But I think we try to do both now, knowing that, you know, yes, you got to show your love through your actions. But yeah, kids also need that verbal affirmation as well, right?

00:25:12.310 - 00:25:28.790

So, yeah, that's one thing that comes to mind. I'm sure there are some other differences, but that's the one that sticks out the most. KL: Yeah, for sure. Something else I was wondering is you mentioned kind of the KL: Chinese tenets, as it were, of family, like relational trust.

00:25:29.470 - 00:25:40.980

KL: A lot of positives of culture. KL: [JT: Yeah.] Culture that are not necessarily, like, at odds with KL: Christianity, I think. KL: [JT: Yeah.] Is there anything that you can kind of think off

00:25:41.620 - 00:25:56.440

KL: the top of your head that would be a negative of Chinese culture that you've seen KL: [JT: Yeah.] that's really clashed heads with Christianity? JT: Yeah, yeah, for sure. JT: And yeah, that would be, I would imagine like, you know, this

00:25:56.440 - 00:26:17.790

JT: the stereotypical and again like, you know, I know you're-you're bringing up the JT: topic of like tiger parenting and-and you know, whether JT: some of those characteristic ways of parenting-are JT: they—I—you know, can they be

00:26:17.790 - 00:26:35.290

JT: critiqued by-by-by-by-by the Christian faith and Christian values? JT: Yeah, I would definitely say that there are things that we JT: can affirm about the stereotypical way of-of, you know, Chinese JT: immigrant parents, tiger parenting.

00:26:36.090 - 00:26:51.480

JT: But then there needs to be an appropriate critique. JT: And so I guess-I mean-I guess-I guess it depends on how we're defining it. JT: I'm guess when I was trying to think about like, what is characteristic of, JT: you know, the stereotypical way that immigrant parents would-would

00:26:51.550 - 00:27:06.160

JT: do it. I kind of boiled it down to-to like four things that I was thinking of, like JT: one would be a strict parenting style, right? JT: So, very hands on. JT: In contrast to the more Western permissive parenting.

00:27:07.440 - 00:27:17.850

JT: Very hands off. Let the kid fail. JT: Let the kid explore their own, you know, whatever they interest-they want to do JT: that-that type of thing. JT: That's one. So, very strict hands on parenting.

00:27:19.170 - 00:27:36.750

JT: Another characteristic I was thinking of is high expectation for excellence, JT: whether it's in academics or any kind of extracurricular, whether it's music, sports, JT: whatever it is, right? Like "We want you to be the best so you can get that scholarship," JT: you know, to-to be able to go to that Ivy League school or whatever.

00:27:37.520 - 00:27:51.770

Versus, in contrast to, some kind of parenting style that's low expectations, low engagement. Only if you're interested, you know, would you be-are we going to sign you up for these activities or whatever it is?

00:27:52.290 - 00:28:08.420

Another third thing I could think of was a highly disciplined in in-instilling a high sense of discipline to be very perseverent, to be-to be very gritty. Like you don't quit. You know, you-you know you're going to do it and you're going-to

00:28:08.420 - 00:28:22.630

you're going to finish, you know, whatever it is, like, you know, and you're not going to quit. And that's in contrast to like, oh, you know, only if you really enjoy it. If you're really passionate about it, go for it. If you don't like it anymore, we'll try something different, right?

00:28:22.700 - 00:28:35.540

I think that's, that's the difference. And then the fourth thing is, a performance-based affirmation, right? So like, yeah, you'll get affirmation somehow if you-if you-if you do well and if you meet these high expectations.

00:28:37.310 - 00:28:51.000

In contrast to a type of parenting style, which is like, "hey, at least you tried," you know, very participation-based—like a participation trophy, you know, here's a ribbon, "good-good for you. You tried your best. So proud of you." Obviously, tiger parenting is like, "no, no,

00:28:51.520 - 00:29:05.060

you didn't-you didn't you didn't excel, you know." So-so those are the four things that I was thinking about was like, yeah, okay, so that's characteristic. So again, strict parenting style, high expectation for excellence, highly

00:29:05.060 - 00:29:20.480

disciplined, and performance based affirmation. And I would say, Christianity can affirm some things, but definitely critiques something in all four of those. So for the first one—I would say Christian parents could also be

00:29:20.760 - 00:29:39.410

critical of a very permissive attitude, a permissive style of parenting. I think we should encourage a more hands-on approach. But really the question is guess like-like where are your hands and what are those hands doing? Like, are your hands grabbing your kid by the collar

00:29:39.710 - 00:29:57.400

and dragging them in a certain direction that you want them to go? Or are your hands, you know, gently on their back and you are trying to encourage them and nudge them in a certain direction, affirming them, patting them on the back when they are taking the necessary steps in that

00:29:57.430 - 00:30:14.940

direction. But in the end, you know, I can't push my kid there if I've got my hands on my back and I'm pushing them in the end, it's not going to-I'm not going to achieve my ultimate goals there. So I think that's something where I-I do think there's something to be affirmed

00:30:15.360 - 00:30:28.300

that we don't want to be just completely hands off and just let your kid, you know, whatever they want to do. But at the same time-so-so it also goes with like rules and like, are there rules in the household and are there consequences for-for breaking those

00:30:28.340 - 00:30:41.390

rules? Very permissive parenting style is like, well, yeah, you know, you know, hey, you know, there's no rules. We just got to trust each other and negotiate things versus like I do think from a Christian point of view, there needs to be rules.

00:30:42.840 - 00:30:59.640

There needs to be law, just like in the Christian faith. I believe that-that God's law is good, and God's authority is also a good thing. So I think there's importance about teaching kids to respect the authority of their

00:30:59.730 - 00:31:17.210

parents and to respect the rules that they have set over you. But again, stressing that the authority of a parent is delegated by God the Father. So ultimately, like it's God the Father who has the all the authority and he

00:31:17.210 - 00:31:31.270

delegates authority to my own parents to-to raise me. Right. And that's a-that's an authority to respect. And then also that these rules for the household: are they derivative of holy Scripture and God's own word?

00:31:31.270 - 00:31:47.020

And I think if we can, as parents, make it clear that, "hey, look, I have an authority over you and I have rules for this household, but again, I'm only basing my authority and these rules off of what the Lord has provided for us." Right? So I think that step needs to be there in Christian parenting and then,

00:31:47.730 - 00:32:07.610

hopefully, you know, teaching our kids to, to actually grow up, whether they always agree, you know, with our rules and whether they always submit to our authority, at least they grow up not thinking inherently or instinctively that rules are bad, that authority is distrustful and

00:32:07.610 - 00:32:23.540

oppressive. Like if they grew up with that kind of impression, then that's-that's not setting them up well, for being able to follow God and to follow and to respect his rules and live under his authority. So I think that's where I do agree with more hands on, but not to the-to

00:32:25.040 - 00:32:44.360

the strictness of maybe you would imagine tiger parenting, where they're like, "I've got rules for you, but it's based on directing you in a way that I want you. I'm trying to mold you into my image," type of a-of a-of a vision versus like, "Yeah, I want my kids to be molded, but not into my image, but in the image of God." And

00:32:44.360 - 00:32:59.640

so there are rules for-in-to move in that direction. And, and there is authority that I have to-to-to guide them in that direction. But in the end it's the image of God that–that I'm stressing. And then same thing for like, you know, excellence and the striving for excellence.

00:32:59.640 - 00:33:12.780

I think Christian parents obviously should encourage their kids to strive for excellence. But the question is like, for whose sake? Like for whose glory, right? Like who-whose goals are you trying to excel in?

00:33:12.970 - 00:33:29.270

Is it, you know, something for your own glory and just to achieve the parents goals for the kid? Or is it ultimately for God and his glory, for his goals for us? So that's another you know, it's something that we should be affirming, striving for excellence. But then again, for whose sake?

00:33:29.680 - 00:33:46.290

And then the other thing about like persevering, yeah, we should want our kids to be persevering and not to not to be quitters, but parenting needs to be-in Christian parenting definitely needs to be aimed at the heart as opposed to just like the behavior like, oh, I got my kid to do what I wanted them to do

00:33:46.290 - 00:33:57.850

and to stick with it. But if they, like, resent you for it or they resent the activity, you know, whatever it is like I mean, yeah, you got them to do what you wanted them to do, but like, why were they doing it in the first place?

00:33:57.930 - 00:34:12.350

And is their-was their heart really in it? Right? So persevering, sticking it out, not quitting is important, but not as an end goal in itself, right? It's only that if that's exposing them to experiencing something even deeper and

00:34:12.470 - 00:34:29.960

more important. And lastly, like, yeah, of course we should want our children to perform well in whatever they are pursuing, but definitely like instead of performance-based affirmation, performance-based parenting, I mean, Christians are like, "No, we have to critique that because we believe in the gospel of grace." And so there's got to be

00:34:29.980 - 00:34:47.530

that grace-based parenting where, you know, in performance-based parenting, you know, and Karis you-you might be familiar with where I'm getting this, if you're, you know, you've grown up in churches and you've probably heard Tim Keller be quoted plenty of times, but I would say

00:34:47.590 - 00:35:04.680

performance based parenting would say to kids, you wouldn't explicitly say this, but this is the message they're getting is that, you know, a kid is like thinking, "I seek to obey my parents and I strive to please them. Therefore, I receive their love and acceptance.

00:35:05.750 - 00:35:23.320

So, because I'm seeking to obey them, I'm striving to please them. Therefore, I get their love, I get their acceptance." Grace-based parenting flips that around. It's the kid recognizing and enjoying the fact that "I received my parents love and acceptance.

00:35:23.820 - 00:35:34.760

That's first and foremost. Therefore, I seek to obey them. I strive to please them." And so in the end, we want the same outcome of "I want you to obey.

00:35:35.310 - 00:35:53.180

I want you to-to-to-to-to strive to please me by-by pursuing these goals." And-but it's all about the heart and the motivation. Like, are they doing it in order to-to-to-to try to earn my love and acceptance or are they doing it out of the

00:35:53.180 - 00:36:09.440

security and the confidence that they already have their parents love and acceptance and that's what's motivating them. Is it coming out of a place of fullness or a place of emptiness and they're trying to fill-to fill up their-their-their heart with love and

00:36:09.440 - 00:36:27.090

acceptance. And so I think that's a two different ways. And in the tiger parenting, the real, you know, performance-based, like, yeah, I think that-that leads to a lot of resentment and a lot of just-just exhaustion, always striving to–to please my parents because they're coming out of a

00:36:27.090 - 00:36:42.530

sense of emptiness and they're-they're hoping that "If I can just achieve this, then I've-I've finally earned their approval." And grace based parenting, Christian parenting is like, "No, you already have it out of grace and out of this place of confidence.

00:36:42.560 - 00:37:02.310

Now, I-I want to see you, you know, still strive in these ways, but out of a completely different heart." So anyways, those are some of the things where I was thinking about, yeah, that's my stereotypical view of Chinese immigrant parenting and the kind of characteristics of that, and

00:37:02.310 - 00:37:16.420

I don't want to just completely reject it as a Christian parent. I do want to affirm what can be affirmed, but I definitely think there needs to be things to be critiqued. And hopefully that kind of helped in-in kind of identifying some of those things.

00:37:17.050 - 00:37:28.350

KL: Yeah, for sure. I think so many things about that. KL: I think, first of all it's very key that you found a kind of answer in between the two KL: extremes instead of throwing one out. JT: Yeah, yeah, that's-that's a good way to put it.

00:37:29.030 - 00:37:46.500

KL: Yeah. And secondly, I think like the idea of a performance based versus KL: grace based parenting and how that even then translates very well into KL: how-how is your kid thinking through their own faith journey in terms of are they— [JT: KL: Yeah.] Like often we project what we think our father, you know, onto God.

00:37:46.500 - 00:37:59.980

KL: [JT: Yeah.] So to take it that way, have you seen a lot of people, KL: specifically in like the Chinese church culture taking a performance based KL: like- JT: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:38:00.150 - 00:38:16.810

JT: You that-has the way that they've been parented and raised impact their spiritual JT: journey-is basically what you're asking? JT: Yeah. Yeah. And having, you know, grown up in the church as JT: a teen in a Chinese heritage church and then I was a youth leader

00:38:17.910 - 00:38:33.220

JT: doing youth ministry, and then also college ministry as well. JT: Yeah, I could see that. JT: That totally correlates where if they grew up, even JT: if they had Christian parents and yet they were still growing up in a culture in a

00:38:33.430 - 00:38:52.500

JT: home where they were being—they JT: were still chasing their parents approval and acceptance and love, then yes, that JT: definitely means that highly likely they have a JT: more moralistic view of the Christian faith.

00:38:53.340 - 00:39:12.720

JT: And that they are approaching their faith and following God. JT: Whether, you know, they wouldn't be like JT: the explicit pharisaical legalists like, "I have JT: to work to earn my salvation." They were never think-they've grown up in the church

00:39:13.330 - 00:39:28.280

JT: well enough to know like, "Oh, you know-you know, Christianity teaches, you know, we're JT: saved not by works but by faith." And they can they can be able to JT: explain that, and they would themselves they wouldn't see themselves JT: as a moralist.

00:39:29.210 - 00:39:52.150

JT: But-but yeah, I think that, that definitely ends JT: up-it's being manifested in the way that they JT: interact with God where it-it might lack the kind of JT: affection that they-they also lacked with their own-with their own

00:39:52.200 - 00:40:11.360

JT: parents and things like that. So yeah, I can totally see the correlation there. JT: And so, yeah, definitely, I mean parenting is JT: discipling. I mean, they're really-it's just-it's JT: intense focus discipleship on just, you know, the kids in your own

00:40:11.510 - 00:40:30.650

JT: home. But yeah, it's-it's the way you parent—you are JT: discipling them whether intentionally or not and they are being JT: shaped spiritually for better or worse by your parenting style. JT: And so that's just-yeah, it does–it does put any Christian parent in a position where

00:40:30.650 - 00:40:43.220

JT: they're like, "Oh my goodness, I totally need God's help. JT: I need God's grace. JT: And I need to be more intentional with the way that I'm parenting JT: because it does have a spiritual impact on your kids."

00:40:44.780 - 00:41:06.000

KL: I'm interested to hear what you think the root of KL: tiger parenting, as you've seen it, is like what is driving parents to parent? JT: Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder if it has to do with just we can JT: say with our lips that we know we are saved by

00:41:06.190 - 00:41:25.610

JT: grace and not by works. JT: And yet, in our own experience of Christianity, we still JT: have a very performance-driven mentality. JT: And so it then-then translates into a high performance based

00:41:26.220 - 00:41:42.910

JT: mentality in the home. JT: And so, yeah, I do wonder if, you know where there's JT: a lot of churches, ministry, Christian ministries that JT: definitely would affirm the gospel and they would have a statement of faith where, yeah,

00:41:42.910 - 00:41:58.600

JT: there's the gospel right there. JT: But then after that it's very much assumed that everyone knows the gospel. JT: And so we can be able to focus on more pragmatic JT: teachings, and-and gospel kind of gets just assumed and kind of put in the

00:41:58.600 - 00:42:16.290

JT: background. And I wonder if that's also then translates JT: into where it's hard for us to connect the dots. JT: And if I really do believe in the grace of the gospel, then how does that actually JT: translate over to something like parenting styles and the kind

00:42:16.750 - 00:42:35.060

JT: of relationship that I'm forming with my kids? JT: So I think the fact that we often kind of assume the gospel JT: and it kind of takes the background in our churches and a lot of pragmatic, JT: practical teaching is in the foreground, then it probably sometimes is harder

00:42:35.110 - 00:42:53.250

JT: for us to then translate gospel JT: realities into our practical parenting style. JT: And so I wonder if that's where, you know, a recovery JT: of-of-of a gospel centered ministry within your church and then even into

00:42:53.250 - 00:43:10.790

JT: your own marriage and your home family life, allowing the JT: gospel not to be this-this thing that we all just confess. JT: You know, just with-just with our lips. JT: But it actually, you know, grace is something that characterizes the

00:43:10.790 - 00:43:27.500

JT: way I interact with my family members, with my own kids in this case. JT: So the fact that sometimes that's not prevalent or present in JT: the church as a whole, we don't know what that really looks like. JT: Then obviously, it's harder to know what it looks like in our homes.

00:43:28.990 - 00:43:44.080

KL: Do you think that there's an impact of KL: fear or control that has to do with also not just even KL: digesting what grace really looks like when parenting your kid? JT: Yeah, yeah.

00:43:45.930 - 00:44:10.100

JT: Yeah, because we're like, we still want to control the outcomes, as opposed JT: to-yeah, I can see that as well in terms of knowing that, you JT: know-knowing that I—if I really believe that I worship a JT: God, a gracious God who is

00:44:11.070 - 00:44:31.520

JT: sovereign and all sovereign, all powerful and all wise, JT: and he graciously calls me into a relationship with him. JT: And there are gonna be, I really believe that, that there are gonna be times where JT: I'm just going to have to trust Him on that, you know, trust Him on, on certain outcomes

00:44:31.570 - 00:44:49.740

JT: and certain events and circumstances in my life that I don't understand-I don't JT: get. And yet JT: that's hard, to let go of control. JT: But if I truly believe that about God, then I am able to to

00:44:49.740 - 00:45:05.990

JT: trust Him. And so in this case, like really trusting that JT: ultimately, God, I know that these are actually your children, that JT: you are the sovereign owner of all things, even including these kids. JT: So technically, like you own these kids.

00:45:05.990 - 00:45:17.700

JT: They're not-they're your kids that you have given to me to steward for a particular JT: season of their lives. JT: And if I truly believe that, then I know I can't control their JT: outcomes.

00:45:17.980 - 00:45:36.140

I can only do so much with my stewardship. And so I think that, yeah, my proper understanding of, of God as being truly the sovereign Lord and–and owner and ruler of all things does definitely

00:45:37.900 - 00:45:56.780

allow me to release control over my own kids and their outcomes and to trust and to not–not be gripped by fear. So yeah, I can totally see how having a healthy view of God in his ownership, his sovereignty, his Lordship,

00:45:57.230 - 00:46:14.740

his-his rule, can definitely help address some of those tendencies we have to want to be so hands on and control the—control the future and the outcome of our kids. Because in the end, like I said, like, they're yours, Lord, and I'm

00:46:14.740 - 00:46:27.650

going to do my best to steward them. But I know that in the end, they're going to have to they're going to stand before you and be accountable for their own lives. And I can only do so much in the early years to help disciple them and point them

00:46:27.650 - 00:46:38.380

in–in the right direction. But I've got to trust the-the final outcome in their lives is going to be in the Lord's hands. Yeah. KL: There was another question that was just came into my head while you were talking.

00:46:38.380 - 00:46:56.060

KL: [JT: Yeah.] Something that someone had commented to me once was, KL: like, they were watching Crazy Rich Asians, the movie. KL: [JT: Ok, yeah.] And they were like, "I just don't understand how, like, you can have all KL: these women like the mother, such, like, a piece of work is saying like, she's a

00:46:56.060 - 00:47:15.340

KL: Christian and she leads a Bible study as the first, like, thing." KL: And I was just wondering if you had any comment on the KL: extent to which Christianity has been kind of linked into the Asian KL: American community-communities, especially, as like this connecting piece and like,

00:47:16.590 - 00:47:35.220

KL: I guess just kind of that whole interplay. JT: Yeah, in terms of like the way that it's more-are JT: you saying that in some communities it's it's-it's more normal for an Asian American JT: to be a churchgoer but then you're asking about the

00:47:36.270 - 00:47:50.260

JT: interplay of like sometimes it's-it's-it's becomes just more JT: cultural, I guess. [KL: Yeah. JT: I think so.] Christianity has become more cultural within—yeah. JT: Yeah. Because yeah, you would think that like culturally you could imagine it within

00:47:50.260 - 00:48:05.220

JT: more of Caucasian communities, cultural Christianity. JT: But you're saying that even now there are some pockets where you could see that JT: cultural Christianity, even within Asian American circles? JT: [KL: Yeah.] Yeah. I mean, yeah, definitely.

00:48:05.950 - 00:48:24.880

JT: I-I can-I can speak to an extent on that. JT: I would say, from my church in particular, there's JT: not man—I mean because-because-because-because our-our JT: Chinese congregation are going to be probably more newer immigrants.

00:48:25.740 - 00:48:41.450

JT: And so they're-they're more being exposed to the gospel, like JT: when they come here to the States. JT: And so there's not a long legacy of faith for a lot of the Chinese JT: families at our church, like some of them are the first Christians, right?

00:48:41.450 - 00:49:01.240

JT: So, so they guess-so on one hand, there is a little bit more vibrancy JT: because they chose to follow Jesus themselves JT: and-and to go to church and to bring their chil—So, I guess, yeah, on-on one hand, I JT: don't see that as much in some of the Chinese families here

00:49:01.240 - 00:49:18.580

JT: because of the-of the-of the dynamics of them being newer immigrants. But definitely on the English side, there's going to be more of a generation now like myself and others where I have, you know, peers here who did grow up in the church. So there probably is some of that in play.

00:49:20.770 - 00:49:38.880

Yeah. I would probably just say-I mean-I mean that's-that's-it's just-it just goes to show how deep our–our sin nature can run, right? Where, you know, we can just be—yeah,

00:49:41.000 - 00:50:04.990

basically, you know, how-how hypocritical Christians can be and how I can be in my own-my own, you know, peers, my in-my-in my church members. So yes, that probably is a unfortunate factor is that we have kind of hijacked a little bit

00:50:05.690 - 00:50:23.260

of-of know authentic Christianity. And a lot of it is just kind of where, you know, even though we're claiming to be Christians-and we and-we are, but it's just some of what we're doing is baptizing certain aspects of our Asian-ness and sanctifying it and

00:50:23.300 - 00:50:39.610

passing it off as as this is what Christianity is. I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, the, you know, some of that is happening even in my own experience and others. So I wouldn't want to say, oh, we don't deal with that, but I would just

00:50:39.610 - 00:50:58.530

simply say that that's where, I think you're gonna find that anywhere and in any culture. And that's where I at least appreciate being in a Chinese heritage church, where there is,

00:50:59.570 - 00:51:19.530

I think more of an awareness of, like, the interplay of culture and faith because of the fact that we do have a lot of people new-new to the faith because they didn't have that kind of legacy of faith for them

00:51:19.530 - 00:51:36.410

because, you know, they were the first Christians possibly in their whole family line. Right? So I think they're like-so just for example, like, you know, at our church, Houston Chinese Church, I think a number of us can point to like, "oh, that's a very Chinese Christian thing to do," right?

00:51:36.410 - 00:51:54.160

Like we can identify that-that's just what Chinese Christians like to do, or they prefer, or that's our preference, you know, that's the way we do ministry. But we're very well aware that like our white Christian friends, the more majority cultural white church, they don't do that,

00:51:54.250 - 00:52:12.300

right? And so we are very much more aware of "that's a very Chinese Christian thing" versus some of my Caucasian, you know, Christian pastors or friends in their majority culture church. Like I-I think sometimes because Christianity is so

00:52:13.460 - 00:52:27.470

dominant in their heritage that they just think that's just the way we do church and that's just how Christians do things. And they're like, that's a very white Christian way of doing something, whether it's the worship style or whatever it is, where I don't think they are able to-unless I

00:52:27.690 - 00:52:42.750

mean, you know, they might be receptive to it if you're able to point it out. But think in if someone in my church is even far more attuned to the fact that, "Oh yeah, that's a very Chinese Christian thing," we have our jokes about that, right? So that's something where. It's probably true.

00:52:44.060 - 00:52:59.670

But I think being in a context like ours hopefully mitigates against some of that because of the fact that at least we're more attuned to the fact that, "oh, we got to be careful that we're not just-like it's Houston Chinese Church," right? That's the name of the church.

00:52:59.910 - 00:53:13.480

But we got to make sure we're stressing that, you know, church is the biggest, you know, uh, you know, if you had, like, a logo. Church has got to be the biggest, right? You know, instead of being like in Houston and then Chinese is the biggest emphasis and

00:53:13.480 - 00:53:25.580

then church is smaller in font. No, I mean, you know, if we ever had something like, you know, we would want to make sure we're stressing we are a church first and foremost that happens to be a church with a Chinese heritage and we happen to be located in Houston.

00:53:26.210 - 00:53:43.820

And that's something that we're very more attentive to the dangers of. If you're not conscious and you're not intentional, you could-you could definitely allow the "Chinese" to-to-to-to take over and that become the dominant

00:53:44.880 - 00:54:01.980

characteristic of our community. So I think at least it probably happens, but hopefully in our context, we're just more aware and careful of-of-of-of trying to resist that. So anyway, don't exactly answer your question, but I do know what you're

00:54:01.980 - 00:54:18.460

talking about in terms of, you know-you know-you know-you know. Yeah. Like do you guys do that because that's just, you know, part of this Chinese culture, conservative culture, or is that actually coming out of the conventional, you know, a biblical conviction?

00:54:19.110 - 00:54:37.040

Right. I mean, so those are examples where we have to be more attentive that we're not just doing church in a certain way because that's just fits with our more Chinese, more conservative cultural, kind of attitude and experience.

00:54:37.040 - 00:54:54.380

So, is that kind of what you were trying to touch on? KP: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. KP: Yeah. Chinese churches, like, I can definitely see the push and pull through the KP: church. Yeah. So, like, kind of changing gears a little bit here, talking about

00:54:54.540 - 00:55:11.000

KP: parenting, what do you think are some unique challenges that your kids face KP: as pastor's kids? JT: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you JT: know. Yeah, definitely, just as a pastor's kid, where

00:55:11.870 - 00:55:28.320

JT: they're going to be, just experiencing having that, that–that JT: experience where everyone knows them, you know, and everyone knows who they are, JT: though they don't know everyone in the church. JT: I mean-I being in a Chinese heritage church where there's multiple congregations, I have

00:55:28.320 - 00:55:45.110

JT: to experience that as well. Like, if I go to Chinatown, I got to be, like, on my best JT: behavior because I might be sitting down in a restaurant, you know, next to a family that JT: actually go to my church and don't even know because they're on the Chinese side. JT: They know who I am. They see me, like, parenting my–my kids well or poorly.

00:55:46.430 - 00:56:02.190

JT: And so, yeah, they have to experience that same thing where like they're, you know-I JT: think our church culture is, is healthy enough that they don't feel, like, the JT: fishbowl. At least I think, I mean, I probably need to talk to my 12 year old JT: more about the kind of pressures that she feels.

00:56:03.060 - 00:56:19.180

JT: But I try to be careful not to JT: use our experiences in the family as just fodder for, JT: like, sermon illustration. JT: Right? And if I ever do talk about her, I always want to make sure I've

00:56:19.510 - 00:56:30.380

JT: gotten her permission first. JT: And I usually always talk about her in-in a-in-which she's, you know, it's in a JT: positive sense. I try-I try never to use her as-as-as a negative example for anything, right.

00:56:30.660 - 00:56:47.070

Because she's there. She's sitting right there in the congregation ever since she was young. And then so even for our two year old or two year old, only she's not there during the sermon. But-but yeah, eventually she'll be there as well, right? So, yeah, but I think her growing up

00:56:47.180 - 00:57:04.450

in a Chinese heritage church, I've just now—because now the oldest is a pre-teen, right? And she's now starting to kind of notice the difference, you know, about, you know, being in like a youth group with Chinese American friends and think

00:57:04.450 - 00:57:18.880

she's now exploring more of her Chinese American identity. And so I'm-I'm glad that, you know, she's in at-in a context where she can be able to to explore and-and be in a place where she knows others are going through the same journey.

00:57:18.950 - 00:57:33.050

So, yeah, that's been-that's been a newer experience, especially as she's entering into, she's going into seventh grade, right? So, that's at the time where I remember I was wrestling with a lot of identity issues and I could see her kind of going through that right now.

00:57:35.210 - 00:57:48.220

KP: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. I think, as a pastor's kid, I definitely can relate. JT: Oh you are. You're a pastor's kid? KP: Yeah, so it's always fun for me to hear the different perspectives of like, [JT: Yeah.] KP: pastors kids and their parents as pastors.

00:57:48.310 - 00:58:02.910

KP: Yeah. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. KL: Yeah, I was going to kind of add on to this in terms of-you kind of talked about the KL: importance of the community's eyes, I guess kind of on you guys like a lot of KL: the time. Yeah.

00:58:02.910 - 00:58:17.950

KL: But I was wondering if you could speak to how important you think the church community KL: was in raising your daughter and your two year old as well. JT: Yeah. Yeah. JT: I very much am appreciative of our church.

00:58:18.420 - 00:58:37.600

JT: I guess part of it is just really trying to make sure that JT: we involve and integrate our kids into the life of the JT: church. So like, for example, you know, typically in a JT: Chinese heritage church, you've got like a Friday night fellowship, right?

00:58:38.020 - 00:58:53.890

JT: So if you guys grew up in, you know, Friday Night Fellowship and, you know, all the JT: adults, they go to their room with their fellowship and then the kids go to JT: Awana, you know, and then the youth go to youth group. JT: And, you know, once you step into the doors of the church, like kids go one way, adults

00:58:53.890 - 00:59:07.900

JT: go the other, and I'll see you afterwards, right? JT: You know, for-for either lunch, Sunday lunch, or I'll see you afterwards for, you JT: know, after fellowship, you know, snack. JT: And that's-that's something where we

00:59:08.490 - 00:59:25.820

JT: really wanted to expose, especially now in this case, you know, I'm JT: talking about my experience with the oldest daughter-so that she was with us through most JT: of our church life and church experience. JT: So, for example, like at an early age, we'd still bring her to service, the

00:59:25.820 - 00:59:40.030

JT: worship service. Now, when she was like-even with the two year old now, like, she'll stay JT: in until the sermon time and then-and then-and then my wife will take her to to the JT: to the nursery. But at least she's there to see mom and dad. JT: Like I'm holding her while I'm worshiping Jesus.

00:59:41.040 - 00:59:56.180

JT: And and she's able to, to see a baptism or things like that. And so, like-and now my oldest, ever since she was in elementary school, was exposed to all of that. And, you know, being in the worship service where that's just normal to her.

00:59:56.670 - 01:00:11.450

And then even for like small group, we tried to conduct our small group in such a way where like when we're at the dinner table and everyone's going around sharing like my daughter was expected to share as well. How was your week? Do you have a prayer request?

01:00:12.330 - 01:00:27.860

You know, they're very often very simple responses, but like, she and some of the other kids were treated like a member of the group, so that, you know, when she was growing up, she would say, like, "our small group." And when she says our small group, she's talking about like, mostly adults.

01:00:27.920 - 01:00:42.550

Right? But that's in her mind. That's my small group, which I think that was something that where she was able to have these relationships with some of these adults where she saw them as "we're part of the same group together" and they had an investment in her life.

01:00:42.550 - 01:01:00.420

So, I think that was something that we had to be intentional with because I think the natural kind of flow of church life in the Chinese heritage is pretty segmented and separated between adults and children, so we had to try to–to—and I think culturally on our-in our English congregation, we're trying to

01:01:00.420 - 01:01:15.700

still move in that direction. I think a lot of parents, younger parents are responsive to that. But yeah, but that's something where, like, I realized that me and my wife are not going to be enough when it comes to being spiritual influences in their lives that

01:01:15.700 - 01:01:34.360

these kids need us, for sure, to be the primary disciplers, but they need other Christian adults that they can be able to see, also being as serious with their faith and they can be able to have conversations with them, perhaps that they might feel, they might be more comfortable with talking

01:01:34.360 - 01:01:51.600

to them about or that they're just able to connect with my daughters in a way that I might not be able to, and I shouldn't be, you know, intimidated by that. You know, if there's a, there's a young adult who really like, my-my daughter really connects with and sees, you know, as this great spiritual

01:01:51.760 - 01:02:03.360

mentor and-and example in her life, like, I should not be at all like, "Oh, wait, I wanted to be that person." Like, I should not be intimidated-I should be very grateful and knowing that we're partnering and working hand in hand.

01:02:03.360 - 01:02:17.370

So, I think that's kind of the mentality we're trying to foster, is that, you know, it takes a village kind of a mentality. So I do appreciate that on the English congregation side, we're seeing obviously more families.

01:02:17.370 - 01:02:34.570

And so you've got these like third generation Chinese Americans, right? So like, you know, I'm second generation, my parents being first generation, now I've got the third generation and now they're growing up and it's-it's-it's-it's an interesting-it's a newer dynamic in terms of our parenting style

01:02:34.570 - 01:02:49.800

and relationship with them than it was with our parents, right? And so it's it's a great experience for all of us as-as we're seeing these third generation kids growing up in the church and seeing-and Lord willing, you know, faith is going to going to be formed in them and stick with them.

01:02:50.480 - 01:03:06.050

So, you know, I'm sure we're making our own set of mistakes, but at least we're hopefully learning from from things from the way that that we experienced growing up. KL: Definitely. I think it's really important that you do have those spiritual mentors that KL: aren't necessarily your parents, although—

01:03:06.140 - 01:03:16.580

JT: Yeah, yeah. KL: Kind of going on to like the role that you play in your [JT: Yeah.] daughter's KL: spiritual life. I guess what-to what extent would you say that you're involved in her KL: spiritual life and journey?

01:03:16.580 - 01:03:34.950

JT: Yeah, yeah. And then for my wife as well, right? JT: Yeah. So I mean, I think one of the biggest choices that we made that JT: impacts this, you know, the answer to this question would be our choice to—well, JT: we don't technically full-on

01:03:34.950 - 01:03:52.470

JT: homeschool our-our daughter, but we are part of a JT: Christian-Christian classical collaborative school in JT: Houston. It's called Trinity Classical School. JT: And it is basically-it's a private school, Christian private school

01:03:52.780 - 01:04:06.160

JT: that's in classical education. JT: But the way that the-the school format is is that there's two days on campus. JT: So Mondays and Wednesdays, it's just like a Christian private school, you're on campus, JT: you have-you have your own teachers.

01:04:06.440 - 01:04:24.860

JT: But then on Tuesdays and Thursdays, when you're an JT: elementary age student, that's home days with the co-teacher, which is, you JT: know, one of your parents and you-and your parents are JT: co-teachers with the teachers at school in your education.

01:04:25.560 - 01:04:45.360

JT: When you hit middle school, they add Fridays as well as a home day and in the high school JT: as well. So, that has provided an opportunity for my wife and myself. JT: And now with the the two year old at home, I'm often taking care-so it's JT: my wife actually doing the lion's share of the home schooling and she works for the

01:04:45.360 - 01:04:58.920

JT: school as well. So, it's a little convenient for her as well because she's very familiar with the material. So yeah, that allows us to be aware of what she's learning educationally, but also, it's Christian school, so

01:04:59.490 - 01:05:17.250

spiritual formation component is built into the curriculum. So, that's probably going to be the most hands on thing that we are involved in and being basically, taking part along with the educators of the school in terms of the spiritual formation of our kids, not just their academics.

01:05:17.250 - 01:05:34.010

But like I said earlier, the more important thing about their character. And, you know, the things that I mentioned earlier, just about exposing them to church life, like everything that we do, we want them to be, you know, generally a part of it as opposed to like just kind of putting them off into children or youth

01:05:34.440 - 01:05:51.000

ministries with the child care type of mentality, like, "Oh, take care of my kids while I go do my adult thing." Like we try to resist that. And yeah, so I think-and also, continued reading to my

01:05:51.000 - 01:06:04.860

kids and conversations. So like even at a very early age, you know, read to my daughter with the second, you know, the two year old now still trying to, you know, keep that going where we've read through, you know, I don't think we haven't read through the whole Bible, but

01:06:04.860 - 01:06:18.840

definitely read a lot of Bible and other books as well. A lot of good Christian books, in terms of fictional books, you know, like Chronicles of Narnia and things like that, right. So those are things where I just wanted to really have a

01:06:19.980 - 01:06:36.280

habit of reading with my kids. So, by God's grace, my oldest is a reader and so she enjoys reading, so that's so good. And now trying to get her to be more intentional and reading the Bible, not the kid's Bible, but the actual like, you know, read this, you know, actual, English

01:06:36.280 - 01:06:48.750

translation of the Bible, and then having conversations with her about that. And so now it's, you know, it's age appropriate. So now we're getting to the point where I really want her to ask me questions and I try to, you know, draw some of that stuff out.

01:06:50.390 - 01:07:06.310

You know, so that's-that's-that's kind of some of the intentional things that we do in our family. KP: Yeah, great to hear. I know you mentioned a little bit about like education and Christian KP: school earlier. Yeah, Asians have like-especially Asian parents, they have like

01:07:06.690 - 01:07:20.300

KP: the reputation of being really overbearing in terms of, [JT: Oh yeah.] and like KP: demanding like all A's or like really high performing academic statuses. KP: So I was wondering, what is your take on that and kind of how does it work for you and KP: your kids and your family?

01:07:20.780 - 01:07:32.570

JT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JT: So, I kind of did mention that a little earlier in the interview how, you know, we JT: do care about academics. JT: I mean, that's why we want to be more involved in actually knowing what our

01:07:32.570 - 01:07:46.020

JT: daughter is learning and being a part of it, teaching her that. JT: So that's why we do enjoy this kind of setup with-with-the with-the school that that we're JT: a part of. JT: But yeah, like-like my wife would say– she's an educator.

01:07:46.020 - 01:07:59.590

JT: And so, and now she's more in the kind of the leadership side. JT: So she's like training teachers. JT: And, you know, what she would say is that, "Look, you can get your kid, you know, to JT: learn your ABCs, you know, learn how to read and-and, you know,

01:07:59.590 - 01:08:15.310

JT: learn, you know, algebra and all." I mean, yes, that stuff is like, you know, of JT: course we care about. JT: And your kids are, you know-you know, for the most part, unless they have some, you JT: know, unique learning disabilities, like your kid is going to get those things.

01:08:15.570 - 01:08:34.610

JT: But what we're more concerned about is their character. JT: Not only we're talking about Christian character, Christian values, but also just JT: being a lifelong learner and to love learning for the sake of learning. JT: Not-not just because I need to grasp this material, because I'm going to be

01:08:34.610 - 01:08:52.020

JT: tested on it, and then I need to get good grades so that I can get into a good college. So, you know, just a very pragmatic, like career track mentality. Like we don't want to instill that with them, especially at a young age. We just want her to-to-to actually to be

01:08:52.910 - 01:09:02.380

a lifelong learner. And again, like I said, a voracious reader. Like those are the things that, like you were hoping for. And at least with the oldest one, we're like, all right, praise God, that has been

01:09:02.380 - 01:09:17.560

instilled. The second one, we'll see, too early to tell. But yeah, so those are the kind of things where I care more about that. So, especially like, you know, right now, she's a, you know, she's a seventh-she's going to be a seventh grader.

01:09:18.620 - 01:09:31.060

Yeah, she, she gets like, really good grades. But I don't really even-so I mean we don't have to worry about that with her. All of my conversations with her, especially since my wife is the one doing most of the academic teaching.

01:09:31.060 - 01:09:47.670

I'm trying to have conversations with her about things that she might be struggling with. You know, whether it's with faith, whether it's socially like-because I care more about her, first of all, being a–being a lover of Jesus, a follower of Jesus. I just want her to be a good friend and I want her to be like, you know, someone that

01:09:47.670 - 01:10:01.750

people trust and want to be friends with. And-and those are all the character stuff that, like, I care so much more about than, you know, looking at her report card. And maybe it's because we're just blessed by the fact that it ends up being like A's

01:10:01.750 - 01:10:12.930

anyways at this-at this stage. But even if it wasn't, I honestly don't think I would care. Maybe because I wasn't a straight-A student myself. And like I said earlier, to Karis, is like my parents weren't super strict on that with

01:10:12.930 - 01:10:30.790

me. But yeah, so that that's where, I could totally see the stereotype. I could see the-I could see the dangers of that, about idolizing academics and making life all about like, you got to get into this college, you got to get into this grad school and you need to be on

01:10:30.830 - 01:10:44.760

this career path. Because again, I'm trying to prepare her for eternity, not just for, you know, for-for-for-for however many decades of a particular career, right? So anyways, that–that kind of shapes my, my attitude towards it.

01:10:45.550 - 01:10:56.650

KL: Yeah. The funny thing is, I feel like I can very much resonate with the experience of KL: your daughter because I went to, a classical Christian school, like from eighth to KL: twelfth. JT: Was it a five day, or is—

01:10:56.650 - 01:11:09.680

KL: It was five day. KL: Yes. Yeah. Honestly, being like during Covid, like, I think got a bit of the remote. KL: [JT: Oh, yes.] So kind of both. KL: But yeah, I would love to hear a little bit just in terms of

01:11:11.480 - 01:11:25.920

KL: not only your thought process through that decision, because I know even my parents-I've KL: gone through like a ton of different types of schools and figuring out whether or not KL: especially, even like with each kid and their personality, like which way, which KL: school should we send them to.

01:11:25.920 - 01:11:41.280

KL: So not only your thought process through that, but also the idea that, like, we are KL: to be in the world but not of the world. KL: And what does that mean in terms of being in a bubble for some part of your KL: form-formation? But also, yeah, just your thoughts on that.

01:11:41.430 - 01:11:58.620

JT: Yeah. Yeah, no, good questions because definitely, you know, we definitely wrestled JT: with some of that. So, one is we didn't like-I mean, obviously we're more JT: committed now, especially with my wife working for the school. JT: So as long as she-she's still employed and working there, I can imagine my kid

01:11:58.620 - 01:12:13.410

JT: going all the way from K to 12, right? JT: And all her friends are there. JT: So I mean, she's very happy and contented at the school, and it's because she's JT: responded well to that kind of education where it's highly emphasis on the liberal

01:12:13.430 - 01:12:28.040

JT: arts, on the humanities. JT: Like if you're not a good reader, like you will struggle at this school. JT: And so like, I definitely am aware that there are other families that JT: eventually they moved on because they realized that it had to fit their kid's

01:12:28.040 - 01:12:43.550

JT: learning style as well. So yeah, I've definitely-when I tell other families in the JT: church about our-our school, I definitely try not to make it sound like, "Oh, JT: this is the mature Christian option for education." Like, no, if it works, if your JT: kid responds well then that's great.

01:12:44.010 - 01:12:58.630

JT: And then secondly, yeah, that's probably the-the one thing JT: that we wrestled with early on and, and a lot of the families we talk to do wrestle JT: with where the whole, you know, I want my kid to be like, you know, in the world JT: obviously not of the world, but I want them to be in the world.

01:12:58.630 - 01:13:10.880

I want them to have go to public school, to have non-Christian friends so that I can then become friends with their non-Christian parents. Like, that's something. Yeah, definitely. Being in a Christian classical school, you're not going

01:13:12.420 - 01:13:26.260

to-well, I mean, now again, who knows if all the parents actually are Christians? You can be a nominal Christian. So definitely, there are opportunities to still have gospel conversations and have a gospel influence on some of the other families.

01:13:27.390 - 01:13:38.930

But yes, for the most part, you know, they're all going to be committed Christians in the school environment. And so we just have to be more intentional when it comes to our neighborhood, when it comes to some of the extracurriculars.

01:13:39.320 - 01:13:56.450

Those are things we're going to have to find ways to be exposed to-to-to-to just unchurched people, non-Christians, because, yes, otherwise you can just be in a bubble because, you know, her parents also-I mean her dad happens to be a pastor of a church.

01:13:56.600 - 01:14:13.370

So like, you know, her world can be very much just this like Christian bubble. So yes, that is something we need to be more intentional with when it comes to some of because the advantage of this being a school that's not five days is that they expect you for a lot of the extracurriculars they can't provide it.

01:14:13.630 - 01:14:28.970

So they're like, you have to find that on your own. So that's where we would have to be doing that in the community. And then the other factor is, yes, I want my kid to have a missionary mentality where they, you know, really see

01:14:28.990 - 01:14:44.880

themselves as, you know, you know-when-when you know-you know, if she's converted to Christ and she is an ambassador for Christ, she's a-she's a Christian, I want her to have that missionary mentality. But at the same time, like, I wouldn't send, you know, a five year old or a six year old

01:14:44.880 - 01:15:02.550

to the mission field right now on their own. So even though, yeah, I want them to see their school as a mission field, at the same time, I have to realize, that our, you know, our public schools aren't necessarily these value neutral, you know-you

01:15:02.550 - 01:15:20.940

know, spaces where it's just, you know, a blank canvas when it comes to values and worldview. So-so at the same time, I-I see it as they're being discipled in the public schools and in ways that would be inconsistent with how the

01:15:20.940 - 01:15:39.930

vision I have for-for my daughter in terms of what I what I pray and hope for. Not to say that you can't faithfully and effectively raise Christian kids in the public-public education, but if you do so, you just have to be aware of how they're being spiritually

01:15:40.010 - 01:15:57.160

formed in a way that, you know, is inconsistent with with your Christian faith. And you need to be able to prepare them for that and counteract that and not just to expect that-that what their experience at school is completely value neutral. So that's where-that's one thing where I recognize

01:15:59.000 - 01:16:14.790

that, like, I do want my daughter—like I do hope she goes to college. I don't expect it to be a Christian college. And so, I know at some point she's going to be in an environment where she's going to be the minority in terms of faith commitment.

01:16:15.220 - 01:16:31.610

And so I want her to be well prepared for that. So, all these early years is I'm just trying to invest in her-in her schools, trying to invest in her to prepare her, letting her know. And early on, I've always tried to-to remind her that not everyone believes what we

01:16:31.630 - 01:16:47.530

believe. And the thing is that we have non-Christians, you know, in our own family, like my parents-my-you know-my-my-my-so our siblings and our parents, me and my wife, all non-Christian. So that always is a constant reminder to our daughter that not everyone believes this.

01:16:47.800 - 01:17:02.800

And so you-you need to realize that there are others who have a different point of view, different worldview. So that's something that we have to be intentional with to prepare her for inevitable exposure where she's going to be, you know, the odd person out when it comes to-to faith.

01:17:04.360 - 01:17:20.790

So, yes. Definitely these are decisions that I-yeah. So when I talk about this with families, I try to be very careful that I don't make this into like a secondary issue. Like Christians should all do this with education.

01:17:22.100 - 01:17:31.970

You know what? It works for me. It works for my family. This is the reason why we do it. You know, here are the pros and cons. You need to come to a-to a decision on-I think this is a real third order tertiary

01:17:31.970 - 01:17:48.550

issue that Christians can disagree on, whether on how you should educate your kids. I think there's some basic principles that we should all agree upon because it's in the scriptures, you know, like things like, you know, you are the primary-primarily responsible to steward and disciple your kid, things like that.

01:17:48.990 - 01:18:03.130

But beyond that, like where you send your kid to school, what kind of school, I think those are things that, you know, we can come to different conclusions on. So I try to be very careful not to, like, make it sound so dogmatic. Like, "hey, you know, if you really want to be a faithful parent, Christian parent, then

01:18:03.130 - 01:18:15.860

you got to do it this way." I-I definitely don't see it that way when it comes to some of the school choices that we've made. KP: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. KP: Really interesting to hear about like your thought process and deciding to go this

01:18:15.900 - 01:18:34.040

KP: unconventional route. What do you think is something that your children have kind of KP: taught you as you've been parenting them and as they've been growing up? JT: Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, yeah, teaching me about, JT: like, my-my-my impatience, for sure.

01:18:36.560 - 01:18:52.300

JT: Yeah, definitely. JT: Yeah. It's my selfishness. JT: I mean. Right, you know, even just at an early JT: stage of parenting and how like, I could be so

01:18:52.730 - 01:19:07.410

JT: distracted from parenting them, you know, by by my-my-my-my JT: phone, you know, and wanting to get immersed in the my own world JT: doing into my work. JT: And, you know, they're crying out to play with me.

01:19:07.410 - 01:19:22.900

JT: And I'm like, "oh, hold on, hold on, hold on." You know? JT: So yeah, definitely how, it has definitely exposed just JT: how like, self-centered I can be, and so, you know, convicted JT: plenty of times about that growing up and then, you know, now I don't know if you guys

01:19:22.900 - 01:19:35.250

JT: are familiar with the TV show Bluey. JT: Like every time I watch Bluey, I'm just like, "Oh my goodness." Oh, such a good show, JT: but it's so convicting. I don't know if you guys are familiar. JT: It's like this cartoon, this really, really well made, kids

01:19:36.010 - 01:19:52.740

JT: cartoon, but it's actually really-like parents love it as well. JT: But basically the dad is like super available and always playing with the kids JT: all the time and it's like so convicting of like, "oh man, how does he have so much JT: time?" And I know, it's a cartoon, you know, it's not real life, but it definitely does,

01:19:52.740 - 01:20:05.990

JT: like expose, like, "yeah, like I need to be more present." I need to be more available. JT: Even though I might physically be there, I can be checked out. JT: And those are the kind of things where it really has exposed a lot of my–my JT: self-centeredness, my-my selfishness.

01:20:07.240 - 01:20:23.170

JT: Yeah. So that's one thing that comes to mind. KL: I was also wondering in terms of navigating the idea that the church is kind of KL: like an extension family, like the body of Christ. KL: How do you navigate the difference between your own family as this kind of smaller

01:20:23.170 - 01:20:39.620

KL: pod, but then also the feeling, the responsibility of the whole church as well? JT: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, especially as a pastor of the church. JT: Yeah. So definitely, yeah, that-that definitely is that JT: tension. And I think all pastors, Karina, maybe, you know, your dad as a pastor

01:20:39.620 - 01:20:48.560

JT: probably, you know, wrestled with that as well and how you felt as the pastor's kid, JT: whether he was doing a good job balancing that. JT: And that's what I wonder. JT: Am I balancing it?

01:20:48.890 - 01:21:08.470

JT: I think an older generation of pastors, JT: even in my church, some of my-my-my colleagues, I feel like JT: had a certain attitude towards pastoring where it was like JT: the family time is a sacrifice that you just have to make for the

01:21:08.470 - 01:21:22.160

JT: calling of a pastor where you have to shepherd the whole church. JT: And so, you know, that's just that's-just like it comes with the territory. JT: It's a cost. And-and the family has to just be able to see that ultimately this is going JT: to pay off in the grander scheme of God.

01:21:22.160 - 01:21:38.720

JT: Just, you know, of what God-I think my generation of pastors, we're a little bit JT: more attentive to like, oh, you know, there are some costs that I don't think are JT: healthy. And so I think-I do sense that we're a little bit more JT: protective. Like my generation of of pastors are a little bit more protective of our

01:21:38.760 - 01:21:55.670

JT: family time. But then I do wrestle with the tension of like, "oh man, am I really JT: as faithful? You know, maybe my am being a little selfish." So that is a tension that I definitely feel, but I am trying to be protective of like, for example, like Mondays-like-like, you know, that's my day off.

01:21:56.410 - 01:22:09.910

That's-that's my-my-my weekly Sabbath. And I really try not to do any work and I try to just be present for my kids. So like yesterday, you know, take my kids out, and just enjoying the day and trying to not think about work and then, you know, taking sabbatical.

01:22:09.910 - 01:22:26.190

Like last summer I went on a sabbatical, like making sure that, you know, I avail myself of-of rest because, you know, I could just, you know, find myself just, you know, immersing myself because-you know, it's a kind of job where, like, you don't have a 9 to 5. Like you can't just leave it at work.

01:22:26.270 - 01:22:40.810

Like it's always going to be, you know, coming at you. And so, I have to be more protective. So yeah, definitely, I do see like I'm going to be the best, most effective pastor if I can demonstrate

01:22:40.870 - 01:22:55.840

to my flock that I am effective in even shepherding the little flock called my family. And that's why if you look at first Timothy 3, like one of the qualifications for an overseer, for an elder, for a pastor is he's able, you know, to shepherd his own family,

01:22:55.980 - 01:23:14.080

right? So you do look at that as a qualification for his effectiveness and his-his, yeah-his qualifications to shepherd. So yeah, I don't see it as-I'm trying not to see it as a competition, but like, the-the most effective I can be

01:23:15.070 - 01:23:34.310

and like-like the more available and present father I can be, allows me to be, you know-you know the best pastor by setting an example, right? So, yeah, I know sometimes it does-you know, someone's-you know, there's been an emergency.

01:23:34.410 - 01:23:50.870

You know, there's someone, you know, emergency. They're in the hospital or someone just, you know, passed away, like, and I got to be there, even though I was scheduled to be at something with family, those are those times where, yeah. I think those are the costs where I understand, like you can't just say,

01:23:50.870 - 01:24:06.090

"Oh, sorry, not available, you know, I'm off the clock." I can't have that mentality because it's not that kind of a job. But at the same time, I have to be protective as much as I can. And when I am not working, I got to really provide that kind of

01:24:06.130 - 01:24:21.590

attentiveness. So yeah, that's something that I know I can do far better in, but I am trying to be more aware of-of-of the dangers of just being so invested in the-the shepherding the church that you-you lose your family in the process.

01:24:21.620 - 01:24:30.780

Like that'd be like my worst nightmare if that were to happen, right? KL: Thank you for sharing that, I think that was very insightful. KL: [JT: Yeah.] So our last question. JT: Yeah, sure.

01:24:30.880 - 01:24:47.850

KL: What is your biggest hope for your children in the future? JT: Yeah. I mean, I pray for their conversion, you know? JT: I mean, I'm trying to raise them in a Christian home, in a Christian environment, JT: but am not under any pretense that I am, that-that

01:24:49.850 - 01:25:04.070

JT: I can just, you know, raise them Christian. JT: Like, I know that they need a-I mean-I know that they need JT: a second birth, you know, you know, my wife and I provided them the first birth. JT: They need a second birth. They–they need to be born again.

01:25:04.790 - 01:25:22.790

JT: That's something that's ultimately God's doing. JT: And until then, you know, they are not Christians in my JT: family. And, you know, maybe this is-this is, JT: maybe, you know, my baptistic, roots kinda showing

01:25:23.160 - 01:25:43.690

JT: here as well that I'm waiting for their conversion, to see signs of JT: that and-and then, yeah, so-so I do pray that-for-for-for JT: signs of their conversion, for them to want to go public with their faith and to be JT: baptized and, you know, to-to-to-to really love

01:25:44.530 - 01:26:02.410

JT: the church and want the church to be central in their lives. JT: So, again, that's something that I hope growing up in our home with dad as-as the JT: pastor of their church has given them a positive experience JT: and view of the church, so when they go off to college, they're independent that they

01:26:02.410 - 01:26:19.350

JT: still have a positive attitude towards it. But yeah, that's definitely, you know, my hope is that–I tell, you know, my kids and I tell the kids in the church like-you need a first hand experience of the faith.

01:26:19.550 - 01:26:34.430

You cannot rely on inhaling secondhand faith. You can be surrounded by Christians all you know-at home, at church, at-Christians all around you. And there's the secondhand faith is in the air.

01:26:35.430 - 01:26:44.530

But that will not be sufficient. That will not make you a Christian. You have to have firsthand experience. You have to experience, taste and see, you know, Jesus for yourself.

01:26:44.530 - 01:27:03.440

And so, I mean, that's-that's just all I really pray for is that my both my daughters will be followers of Jesus and that they will marry well, Lord, if the Lord calls them to marriage, that they will marry well, a husband that also shares the same convictions of following

01:27:03.490 - 01:27:24.170

Jesus. So, yeah, those are some simple prayers, simple hopes for them. And that, yeah, I hope we just don't-we don't fail them in the sense that they grow up disillusioned and like-oh like tired of the church, I mean, yeah I know that's always a possibility, and so we're trying to mitigate

01:27:24.170 - 01:27:40.550

that as much as possible that we're showing them an authentic expression of-of faith where there is failure, there is disappointment, but there's also repentance, there's also forgiveness. And hopefully that-that that sets them up well when they have to start taking those

01:27:40.550 - 01:27:52.450

steps on their own. KP: Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much for sharing. KP: Before Karis stops our recording, is there anything else you want to add or share to KP: this conversation?

01:27:53.310 - 01:28:10.350

JT: Um, no, I think that's-yeah, I mean, that's-that's-uh-uh, you know, JT: I've been very thankful for even just these questions and even having, you know, forcing JT: myself to, like, think about it and be more, you know, reflective. JT: So I-I really appreciate—I got out a lot about it.

01:28:10.350 - 01:28:24.380

JT: Just-just, you know, the last couple of days was like-you know-you know, JT: how have I been parenting-my wife-how-how have we been parenting and are we meeting JT: some of those goals? And so, yeah, this is a very good exercise for me, so I really JT: appreciate the opportunity.