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KL: Before we start with a ton of questions, would you mind just introducing KL: yourself, who you are and what you do, and kind of your connection to Texas area? JC: Okay, Well, my name is Janas Caruncho. JC: I am the senior pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Sugarland.

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JC: And I moved to Texas right after Hurricane Harvey JC: to lead the church, they called me to lead the church here. JC: And so I've been in the Houston area for around six years now. JC: And it was definitely quite an indoctrination to move during one of the

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JC: biggest hurricanes [laughs] that has hit Houston. JC: But through that, we've really seen people really pitch in together and help each JC: other through a disaster. There-there's nothing like knowing an area more than seeing JC: how they handle disasters together.

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JC: And I really saw some of the best of human nature with neighbors JC: really helping each other out during Hurricane Harvey. JC: So—but that was quite a–quite a start [laughs], an introduction to the Houston JC: area.

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KL: That's—yeah, that is very crazy, in terms of adjustment, I'm sure. KL: It's more than enough adjustment as it is just moving, but adding the hurricane would KL: be crazy [laughs]. JC: Yes.

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KL: Yeah. So, why don't we start with—can you just tell us a little bit about KL: how you were raised, kind of how you would describe your parents' parenting style? JC: Sure. I was raised in—I grew up in Manila–Manila, JC: Philippines, and my mom was a pharmacist and my

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JC: dad was a–a colonel in the military. JC: And so, they were very strict as I was growing up. JC: There was a lot of rules to follow, as you can imagine, but they were also very loving. JC: They invest-invested a lot in my academics, and so my mom would make worksheets for

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JC: me to try to complete [laughs]. JC: So I would do a lot of math. JC: They were also very religious, my mom was a very devoted Catholic, and so she would send JC: me to church every day.

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JC: We would go to church every day and go to mass, and I was JC: young and I'd fall asleep because [laughs] it wasn't that interesting for JC: a–for a kid in elementary school. JC: Then we moved to the United States, when—around

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JC: when I was 10 or 11. JC: And it was quite an experience to have that experience JC: as an immigrant, moving to a new area, a new land, a new country. JC: I think the first time we moved to the United States, I was in awe of how beautiful

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JC: it was and how large it was. I think one of the first places I went to touch down was Disneyland, the happiest place on earth. And so [laughs], definitely left me with quite an impression of the United States.

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And yeah, I guess through learning more about our country here and–and how my parents–parents parented me, tried to protect me as an immigrant child, I thought that was quite—just really selfless of them.

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They made a lot of sacrifices for my future and for my education. And they, you know, they worked really hard to provide for me. And so, I could see that, and even though they were strict in their parenting, I could see that there was a lot of love and sacrifice that–that went behind

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that because it was driven out of a love and care and concern for me as a child. When you're a child, you don't really appreciate those things. It just feels very restrictive [laughs] and repressive. But now as a parent myself, I–I kind of see what they were

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getting at and what they were trying to do. KL: Mmm. I was wondering—so you mentioned that you KL: went to church every day because your mom was, like, very KL: Catholic [JC: Yeah she was very...].

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KL: I have a–I have a lot of friends who, like, similarly, their parents would force KL: them or, like, make them go to church, like, so many times a week and they really grew, KL: like, a lot of resentment towards that just because they didn't want to go to church that KL: many times. [JC: Yes.] Is that kind of the experience you felt?

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KL: And if yes, like, how did you get from that to now being a pastor now? JC: [laughs] Well, yeah, I think as a child, when you're forced to JC: do something, you're just not happy [laughs]. JC: A-Anything, right?

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JC: Whether it's—forced to do sports even, something that's enjoyable. JC: But whenever you're forced to do something, there's some reluctance as a child. JC: I–I think how I got over some of that was: I had my own JC: faith journey, right?

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JC: It wasn't actually my mom who led me to faith. JC: It was my friends in high school. JC: It was my friends in high school telling me, "Hey, you want to come with us to youth JC: group? You want to come with us to church?" And I was like, "No, I don't want to do that.

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JC: [laughs] That's boring." You know, my mom used to force me when I was a child. JC: And so it was through my interactions with my peers that I–I JC: got to really appreciate, what was going on at JC: church and what was actually being said, actually started paying attention rather than

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JC: when it was being force-fed to me by my–by my mother [laughs]. KL: For sure. Do you feel like being raised as, like, Asian KL: American and immigrating, did that have, like, an effect on KL: how you kind of dealt with the

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KL: identity of being either Catholic or Christian growing KL: up? JC: What do you mean? What do you mean by that question? JC: I guess I want to clarify before I–I tackle it.

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KL: Yeah! I guess just to what extent—I mean, maybe KL: even just to put it, like, between, like, feeling like you were raised KL: Filipino versus feeling like you were raised Christian or Catholic. KL: Was there one that, like, felt more prominent in your childhood?

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JC: I think when–when you're a child, you don't—it's not very introspective, you just JC: do and follow what your–your parents [laughs] do, and you're JC: just confused, right? In a lot of ways, I was between two different JC: cultures, speaking two different languages, one at home, one at school.

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JC: As far as the faith language, you know, most of the people around me were not of my JC: same ethnicity at church. JC: And so I think there's a little displacement that you feel as a young person, but you JC: don't really process that too much when you're young.

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JC: I think my identity—since when I JC: was young, it was forced upon me. JC: My identity was not Catholic or–or Christian, that was not JC: a big part of my identity.

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JC: I–I think in a lot of ways, since I was made fun of–of, 'cause I had an accent when I JC: first came [laughs] to school here. JC: They would make fun of my lunch, things like that. JC: And–and I think in a lot of ways that made me really recognize,

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JC: "Oh, I'm Asian. [laughs] I'm–I'm Filipino, I'm different, I'm other," even JC: though I can speak English, even though, coming from the Philippines, I watched JC: American television shows. JC: And so I could relate to the culture a little bit, I was still other.

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JC: While–while people were kind and welcoming to me as an immigrant child in the–in the JC: 80s, with kids, kids tend to just make fun of JC: things that are different, right? JC: And so, I could definitely tell I was different.

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JC: And so, in some ways because of that, you remember JC: that as part of your identity more than just, "Hey, I'm–I'm a child, I'm a JC: human being, I'm your friend." [laughs] When–when people try to say, "Oh, JC: you eat different things" or "you–you smell different" or "you sound

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JC: different," it heightens some of those things in the JC: mind of–of a child. JC: But maybe [laughs] it's too early for a child to ponder those things, right? JC: But I think kids can be brutal.

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KL: That's very true. I agree with that [laughs]. KL: Kind of going back to how you felt your parents parented you, do you see KL: similarities in your parenting style now? JC: Yes, I mean I–I try to take the things that I really admired and loved about their

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JC: parenting as well as tweak it in the same–in the JC: same way that, like, some of the things I didn't like or I didn't appreciate or I wish JC: they did more of. JC: And that's what I try to incorporate to my parenting, not to criticize my own parents,

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JC: I–I think they bid—they did the best that they could, depending on JC: how they were parented and their own wishes from what JC: their parents [laughs] should have done for them. JC: And so I think—hopefully I've taken the mantle from them and–and

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JC: try to grow in–in parenting my children well, and hopefully when my JC: kids become parents on their own, they'll take [laughs] some of the good things that JC: I've done and hopefully forget the bad things that I—or the mistakes that I've done, JC: so...

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KL: Is there anything you could elaborate on in terms of a specific thing that you feel like KL: you've changed while being a parent or something that you've taken from your KL: parents? JC: Taken and change?

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JC: Well, I–I think since we were immigrants, I think my JC: mom was very anxious and–and JC: very protective of me. JC: I was an only child, and I think you put those things together, only child

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JC: and an immigrant. JC: I think she was very protective of me in–in the culture. JC: And so, there was a lot of restrictions placed upon me, like I couldn't go to JC: amusement parks or I couldn't go water skiing.

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JC: I couldn't do the things that my friends were allowed to do 'cause I had to study at JC: home [laughs]. And so I felt very restricted in a lot of ways. JC: And I knew that she was being overprotective because she cared about me. JC: But that didn't make it any more pleasant as a child.

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JC: And so I think one thing that I've done as a parent is I've JC: been—while still caring for them and seeking to protect my children from JC: harm, I've given them more freedom. JC: So they've been able to do more of these things at an earlier age than

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JC: I had. You know, for example, I–I think even as a young adult, when I went hang JC: gliding, I had to tell my mom after I went hang gliding to tell her, "Hey, JC: mom, I just went hang gliding." She's like, "What? JC: What did you just say?" "Oh, it's over, Mom.

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JC: You can't–[laughs] you can't tell me not to do it anymore because I just did it." JC: And this was me as an adult. JC: So that's kind of how much influence my mom still had me—on me as an adult. JC: So that tells you something.

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JC: But as for my own kids, I try to give them a little more freedom to explore and–and JC: not to be fearful of–of–of their safety, to trust in JC: God and if it's–it's fairly safe then—and [laughs] I'll allow them to do it. KP: Yeah, great.

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KP: Thank you so much for sharing some of your experiences. KP: It's kind of segueing off of that. KP: I was wondering what you think would define as, like, a, like, a tiger parent, KP: basically, and to what extent you agree or disagree with that level of parenting.

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JC: I–I think—wow, that's a–that's a–that's a good question. JC: I think tiger parenting is driven by fear, right? JC: Because in a lot of ways, as an immigrant, you're coming to a new JC: area. You know you're different, and so you want your children to succeed.

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JC: And the only way I think a lot of immigrant parents think their children are going to JC: succeed is do well at school, and so JC: that they can get a good job and so they can get a foothold within the country and be a JC: contributing member of the country.

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JC: So, I think the motivation under that is–is good because you want your JC: children to get a foothold and–and not suffer through the same JC: struggles that you had as an immigrant. JC: At the same time, it's driven by fear, right?

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JC: Fear that if they don't do well at school, that there's no foothold in this country. JC: And–and I think as a child growing up in that, I realized that's not necessarily JC: true. You know, I've had classmates who weren't the most academically gifted JC: at school who didn't perform as well as some of their

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JC: peers at high school, but now are wonderful adults doing wonderful JC: things for the country. And they have good families and–and–and JC: definitely contributing to our society. JC: So it's—academics is not just the only road to be able to be a productive

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JC: member of society. And so I think some of that tiger momming has come from a JC: fear, right? JC: A fear that if they don't do well academically, how will their future JC: be stable in this land?

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JC: That's different than—than maybe what they grew up in, right? JC: And so I think a lot of that tiger parenting comes from, yeah, this fear of JC: the future for their kids. JC: So out of both love [laughs] and fear, it's such an interesting

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JC: phenomenon. I don't think they tiger their parents—their kids because they dislike their kids [laughs]. But I think there's a lot of fear involved and–and so this is the best way I think they can express their love.

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I think—so—I think—to build off of Karis's question, how is my parenting a little different? I'm a little more relaxed [laughs] about those things, right? So, maybe less strict tha-than my parents. My kids will still say I have rules and I'm strict.

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But I was like, "Oh, if you only lived in Daddy or Mommy's household, it would be a little different." So, kids always will push the–the boundary, no matter how lenient or strict you are, right? There will always be boundaries to push.

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But I–I think both my wife and I are–are cognizant of this tiger parenting being driven by fear. And so we're—well, we want to give our children opportunities to succeed and to have them reach their fullest potential.

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I think there's a–a realization for both my wife and I that we want to trust, trust in God, that they're going to be okay as long as they do their best. They don't have to be number one at everything [laughs]. As long as they do their best, they learn what hard work is.

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They learn socialization with others to be kind and to generous—to be generous to others. To explore their interests, because sometimes academics is not their interest [laughs]. And so there are other interests out there, whether it's art, whether it's music, whether it's sports, whatever it

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is, kids have varied interests. And so, give them the freedom to explore those interests, because I think if you're exploring the things you're interested in, you're going to perform much better in those things if they're not being force-fed to you.

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KL: Yeah, I feel like that's a really insightful comment that it's fear that's KL: driving it, and almost with the way that you're describing like what you and your wife KL: are doing by trying to trust God, it's almost like relinquishing control, which I KL: feel like is a big aspect of fear and love and control [JC laughs] all in this

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KL: little—this trinity triangle. KL: But kind of another elaboration on this question, I was wondering, like, if KL: you would say that tiger parenting and Christian values can coexist. KL: Or do you see them fundamentally at odds with each other?

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JC: Hmm. Could they coexist or are they–are they at odds? JC: That's another good question [laughs]. JC: Well, I think there's JC: no monolithic tiger parenting method.

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JC: I'll–I'll–I'll put it that way, right? JC: I–I think it's a relative statement how kids are—how JC: kids regard tiger parenting. JC: And so, one child would have to study five hours a

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JC: day and another child would have to study 15 minutes a day, and they could JC: consider both those [laughs] requirements tiger parenting, JC: right? Depending on the child's perspective and what they're used to. JC: Regarding the more philosophical [laughs] question—part

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JC: of your question, I–I think I would–I–I would–I JC: would–I would, I guess, couch it this way: if JC: fear is what's driving you to be this tiger parent, JC: then that is opposed to Christian values of faith.

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'Cause Christianity tells us to have faith over fear, right? If we idolize success and worldly wealth, well, that's not a Christian value as well, right? So, really depends what's motivating the tiger parenting,

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and what level of tiger parenting, because there's a balance there in the sense that you want to create a structure for your children. You want them to learn discipline. You want them to learn perseverance and hard work.

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And some people might call that tiger parenting [laughs]. Well, those things are Christian values, right? Strive for excellence, work hard and for the Lord. And so that–that

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caveat comes into play there. So what is motivating this tiger parenting and what is at the level of it? Because if it's not faith and it's—if it's driven by fear, if it's driven by a desire for idolatrous wealth [laughs] or

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power, then those things are not Christian. But if they're done to discipline your child and to help them learn perseverance and help them to not be crushed by disappointment, but to press on and–and strive for excellence even in the midst of difficulty,

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then that is a–a Christian value. So, I–I think it's how you apply the values that determine whether they're antithetical–antithetical or not, or–or whether they are complementary. KP: Yeah. Thanks for sharing.

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KP: I think it's really great how you mentioned that the motivation is really important in KP: determining whether something is going to be good for your child or not. KP: But yeah, kind of segueing off of that, what do you think are some values that you KP: really actively try to impart on your children as you're raising them?

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KP: And where do you think those values came from? JC: Okay. Well, one of the values that I want to always emphasize with my JC: children is honesty and–and vulnerability and transparency with their JC: parents. Because I've seen as a pastor, growing up, there are a lot of

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JC: people who hide sin and hide sin from their parents and then they would share with me as JC: their pastor and that they would never share with their parents. JC: And a lot of their times their parents are in the dark regarding some of their deepest JC: fears and deepest struggles.

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JC: And so that their parents, as much as they would want to help them through those deepest JC: fears and struggles that they're experiencing, they don't even get a voice JC: in that because the children are–are–are fearful of how the parents will react JC: and–and maybe overreact to those things.

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JC: And so I think as a parent, when I–I became a parent, I, you know, I de-I decided JC: to tell my children, you know, honesty and transparency is important in our family. JC: You know, "If you hide things from me, if you lie to me, then I would feel betrayed. JC: And I wouldn't be able to guide you through the struggles

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JC: that you're going through. So don't be fearful to share with me JC: some of these things. And don't be scared about being punished." Right? JC: There will be consequences to your actions, but that won't be the main thing JC: that we're going to be dealing with.

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JC: Like, if you're struggling, we're going to try to help you. JC: A-and think I want to emphasize that to my children. If they're st-struggling with mental health issues or they're struggling with stress or they're struggling with maybe bullying at school, I want to be

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the first to know. And–and I also want to share with them that I will—as a parent, I will try not to overreact. It's hard not to overreact when you care about your child, right? But in those moments, that's when the parents have to be disciplined.

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"Okay, I promised I wouldn't overreact [laughs]." If I want them to continue to be vulnerable and transparent to me, then I have to learn to not overreact. I–I have to learn not to embarrass them. I have to learn to treat this as something that's

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precious. And that's a compliment that they're opening up to me and they're being transparent to me at the risk of themselves, at the risk of being punished or being embarrassed, right? And so, how do I

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become faithful to that risk that they're taking? How do I become trustworthy for their trust [laughs]? If I'm encouraging to–to trust me [laughs] as their parent, then I have to be worthy of that trust and–and–and learn to be trustworthy.

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And–and that's hard. It's–it's a delicate balance, obviously. And as they grow up, that gets more and more complex, right? As they deal with the world around them and–and trying to make sense of the world.

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But I want to listen first. I think as a parent, you want to listen first to your children before you interject your own voice. I–I think a lot of times as parents, we have such a strong voice and we don't realize how

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strong our voice is in our children's lives. It's a very powerful voice. And sometimes when you have so much power, it's best to hold it back [laughs] and not lord it over them.

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And to listen and to hear what's going on in their hearts first. Then [laughs], once you've heard them, then–then you can give your two cents, then you can give your guidance and your advice. But I think a lot of times as parents, our temptation is to

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interject our voice too quick before we have even heard our children's voice. And so, you know, my–my kids and I have tried to learn this dance when–when they see me trying to interject too quickly, they're like, "Dad, you need to hear me first." And so I was like, "Okay, you're right.

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I forgot that part. I just overreacted a little bit there [laughs]." And so, it's learning. You know, I'm not a perfect parent and my children are not perfect children. But I think if we're striving for what's good together, we can

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have a healthy relationship, not just when they're children, but hopefully onto their adulthood as well. KL: I think that's really beautiful. KL: If you kind of had to categorize, like, this sort of parenting method and style

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KL: into—I know it's probably not this simplistic, but if you kind of had to KL: proportion out a percentage of how much you think it's your faith versus how much you KL: think it's kind of the Asian part of you that is informing KL: these standards—and/or these philosophies that you are trying to parent your kids by.

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KL: How would you do that? JC: [laughs] Sure. I mean, it's kind of going to be hard to quantify these things. JC: I grew up, like I said, in Asia, and I was parented a certain way. JC: So those things are–are ingrained in me in a lot of ways, right?

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JC: That my worldview has been shaped by what I grew up in and–and JC: how I was raised. JC: So, those are not easily put by the wayside, right JC: [laughs]? So, as—growing up in an Asian household, I value academics.

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JC: As matter—as much as I want to be free with my kids, for them to pursue interests, JC: I—something I value. JC: It's very hard to get rid of that value [laughs]. JC: If I see a lot of C's and D's, it's just, "Oh, what's going

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JC: on? Did you not do any work? JC: Did you not study?" Right? JC: And so I think as a–a Asian parent, those things are hard to let go JC: of in a lot of ways.

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JC: But as a Christian [laughs], I-I'll have to examine JC: myself like, "Okay, am I idolizing academics? JC: Am I idolizing getting an A? JC: No, no. I just want them to work hard." And so there's the dilemma within me [laughs],

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JC: right? Is this my Asian upbringing of "You got JC: to get 100 [laughs]?" And then—or is this JC: my Christian ethic where you have to be faithful and–and JC: work hard for the Lord?

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JC: And so there's that dilemma there. JC: And so sometimes I'm like, "Okay, which one is this? JC: God help me discern: am I overreacting because I'm JC: Asian or am I idolizing this

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JC: because I'm–I'm sinful [laughs]?" And so it's–it's a delicate balance, it's a dance. Nobody, I think can get this perfect. But we're—we are shaped by our influences.

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And it's not easy to let go of those things. Now, as a believer, I want to—I want God to shape me. I want his word to shape me. But I know I want the Holy Spirit to shape me.

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And so, yeah, so I would do my quiet times, I would pray to God, I would ask God for help. But as an imperfect work-in-progress human being, it's not going to be perfect. Nobody is perfect.

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Only Jesus is perfect. That's kind of what we believe–believe as Christians, as believers, right? So–so in a lot of ways, my prayer is "God, you know, help me in my inadequacies [laughs] as a parent.

00:27:27.490 - 00:27:45.670

And you are the ideal parent, so please fill in my gaps, you know, because I want to do my best." And–and I think one of the biggest lessons I've learned as a Christian parent is have to learn to apologize to my kids when I realize that I—that I'm wrong or that I've sinned against them.

00:27:46.550 - 00:27:55.350

As an Asian person, that is so difficult [laughs]. "Apologizing to your kids? The kid should honor their elders! What's going on?

00:27:55.850 - 00:28:08.910

How can I do this?" But then the Christian ethic would say, "No, there has to be humility. There has to be a desire, forgiveness. And when you sin against someone, you should ask for forgiveness."

00:28:10.160 - 00:28:26.590

Something I teach my kids, but I also have to apply to myself. And so that's–that's very difficult. You know, and the Bible says, "Do not lord your authority over others [laughs]." And that goes to your children too.

00:28:28.030 - 00:28:46.200

And while they need to honor me and–and obey me while they're in my household, how do I not abuse that authority? But use it to serve them and to love them just how Jesus has loved us? That–that he had all this power, but he didn't use it for his own gain.

00:28:46.810 - 00:28:58.150

He used it to serve and to love others. How he has loved us in that way. And so, you know, how do I pattern myself as a parent [laughs]? I have all this influence.

00:28:58.150 - 00:29:17.410

I have all this power and authority over my children. How do I use it to empower them and to strengthen them and to point them toward God? Rather than feed my ego or feed my idols, you know. Where in some ways, some parents, we see their success reflecting on our

00:29:17.410 - 00:29:34.700

success [laughs]. And so we celebrate their success more than our own success. And–and–and sometimes we try to live vicariously through our children. And that can be very toxic if–if it becomes an idol of our heart. And so we have to let go of those idols.

00:29:35.370 - 00:29:54.450

And–and we have to love our children for who they are and how God has made them while continually helping them grow and mature and–and reach their fullest potential. I think any parent wants their kid to reach their fullest potential. But not at a—not the

00:29:54.450 - 00:30:12.080

expense of feeding my idolatry. KL: Yeah. I think you did a really insightful job of kind of detailing the KL: challenges in the difficulties of having these two somewhat—feeling like KL: sometimes they oppose values, trying to walk the balance between the middle of

00:30:12.080 - 00:30:32.340

KL: them. I was wondering if you had any insights into something that KL: you feel is positive about being raised Asian KL: and Asian American even thinking about your—for your kids and kind of pairing KL: that with Christianity? Because I know personally, like, being raised, you know, my

00:30:32.340 - 00:30:49.260

KL: dad, like, he'd always be, like, it felt very much like, okay, "Christianity," KL: like—and then when we do some, like, ritual or something, he'd be like, "Pagan. KL: No!" [JC laughs] And there was my mom, like definitely had more of like, "Okay, no, like, KL: keep the culture alive." [JC: Sure] So I think there's definitely a ton of variety on

00:30:49.260 - 00:31:04.230

KL: how people kind of attack this part of them and this issue. JC: Well, there's a lot of beautiful things about Asian culture, right? JC: We're—I–I think there's the fingerprints of God in every culture. JC: Every culture has the fingerprints of God.

00:31:04.230 - 00:31:23.890

JC: And–and I think when Christ comes into the culture, it doesn't erase or JC: eradicate the culture, but it up-uplifts it and in some JC: ways brings it to its best representation of itself, where JC: the toxicity is removed [laughs] and only the best traits are able to shine

00:31:24.680 - 00:31:38.990

JC: from that culture. And so, you know, I've been talking a lot about JC: academics, right? JC: But, there's value, great value in Asian cultures' JC: appreciation for scholarship.

00:31:39.690 - 00:31:57.120

JC: Because not all cultures appreciate scholarship and good scholarship and JC: dedicated and–and JC: really well-articulated scholarship. JC: And–and I think with Asian cultures you never have to convince them about the value

00:31:57.120 - 00:32:15.010

JC: of education [laughs]. It's ingrained in our–in our JC: culture. And so I think that's one way, right? JC: And–and–and that in Christianity, God has blessed us with minds. JC: God has blessed us with the wisdom to be able to discern and–and know his will, right?

00:32:15.950 - 00:32:32.340

JC: That's why science really developed, because of the Christians' desire JC: to understand God's creation. JC: And so a lot of the early scientists were all believers, JC: the foremost field in science.

00:32:32.340 - 00:32:46.120

JC: And so, in a lot of ways, yes, Asian culture values JC: scholarship. We don't have to, like [laughs], we don't have to JC: convince us of that. JC: So that's another one cultural value.

00:32:46.220 - 00:33:01.380

JC: You know, I think one cultural value, I think the kids and I, you know, we celebrate JC: all the different heritages. My wife is Chinese and I'm Filipino. And–and we try to–try to celebrate our different feasts and different cultures

00:33:01.380 - 00:33:16.760

and–and the kids really get to enjoy that because they get to know more of who they are and–and their ancestry and their heritage. And I think that's valuable for–for young people. To not be ashamed of how God created them and

00:33:17.560 - 00:33:35.280

not be ashamed of–of where their family's from and to actually treasure it and to celebrate it and to accept it that they're not any less than any other culture. That all cultures have been created by God and all cultures should be celebrated.

00:33:35.870 - 00:33:54.890

And all cultures can be redeemed by the gospel. Obviously, every culture has faults and–and–and errors within–within it, right? Some of our traditions are very superstitious, and it's about wealth

00:33:54.890 - 00:34:04.820

[laughs], right? The idolization of wealth. But we don't have to take it in those ways, right? As–as when we become believers, we just, "Hey, this is where we're from.

00:34:05.600 - 00:34:21.180

And there's negative things associated with some of these things, but there's also positive things." So why just focus on the negative things and–and ignore it, throw the baby out with the bathwater? You know, I think we can have enough discernment to celebrate the things that are

00:34:21.180 - 00:34:33.360

good while leaving behind some of the things that are pa—in the past that are not so good. KL: Yeah, I think that's a great point. KL: It reminds me of, like, even in the New Testament, you know, when the believers are

00:34:33.410 - 00:34:44.360

KL: like trying to figure out the whole, like, meat question and they're like, "Yeah, you KL: know, you're still in the market. KL: It's not like we isolated ourselves," but like, you're going to have discernment about KL: what you're going to eat.

00:34:44.930 - 00:35:02.930

KL: And so I think that's kind of, like, a good principle that you're illustrating there. KL: Kind of jumping to your kids, what has it been like KL: seeing your kids navigate the kind of dual identity of being KL: a pastor's kid as well as being Asian American?

00:35:06.450 - 00:35:19.810

JC: Yeah, I think [laughs] it's a lot easier for them. JC: I'll–I'll–I'll tackle the Asian-American question first and then we'll–we'll deal with JC: the pastor's kid next. JC: I think it's been a lot easier for them to accept their identity as Asian-Americans

00:35:20.460 - 00:35:36.800

JC: because they're growing up in this new generation. JC: This new generation has a lot more influences and representation JC: because we live in a worldwide entertainment business. JC: Because of YouTube, because of all these social media, they're able to

00:35:36.880 - 00:35:52.970

JC: access entertainment from all around the world. JC: And so if they want to listen to entertainment from Korea, if they want to JC: listen to entertainment from the Philippines, they want to listen to JC: entertainment from Hong Kong or Taiwan or–or China, they can.

00:35:53.300 - 00:36:08.810

JC: And there's a lot of stars, you know, K-pop is one of the JC: biggest worldwide [laughs] music phenomenons going on right now. JC: Some of the biggest stars in the world are Asian. JC: And–and so they're exposed to

00:36:12.540 - 00:36:30.640

JC: these Asian superstars from all around the world that maybe when I was growing up, JC: the only Asian superstar that I was exposed to was Bruce Lee and JC: Jackie Chan. And they're amazing actors and they were very influential. JC: But also that was used as a weapon against me when I was younger.

00:36:30.640 - 00:36:45.620

JC: They would just make fun of me and they would call me Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan, JC: because those are the only international superstars that they've heard of [laughs]. JC: And so, I don't think that happens to my children anymore. They–they don't get called Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan.

00:36:46.930 - 00:36:59.330

I think there's an appreciation of Asian culture worldwide now because Asian culture has been more propagated. And–and my kids have grown up just loving Asian things. They love Asian food.

00:36:59.330 - 00:37:10.190

They're proud of, you know, eating Chinese food and–and sushi and–and Filipino food. They're proud of those things. It's—I think when I was younger, like, "These are different [laughs].

00:37:10.840 - 00:37:26.870

I'm going to made fun of if they're–they're going to see this." I think the new generation, they're just more proud of their Asian-American heritage while, you know, appreciating that they're American. There-there's a lot of more positive representation in

00:37:26.870 - 00:37:39.760

their generation. I think I remember taking my kids to see Shang-Chi. There's–there's a Marvel superhero who's Asian! How cool is that? And so they really enjoyed that.

00:37:39.760 - 00:37:57.480

And I think I–I remember taking my kids to their first concert. And it was an Asian-American singer that I took them to see, and I was like, "Wow, my first concert was not that." But their first concert was watching an Asian-American perform on stage, you know, to a mixed audience.

00:37:57.810 - 00:38:16.030

And everybody's going wild and crazy. And so, I think in a lot of ways, "Wow!" That their generation, has–has it better [laughs] than probably my generation where the representation that we had in entertainment and media was very limited when I was younger.

00:38:17.560 - 00:38:37.310

So, I–I–I think they're growing up in a–in a good time regarding those things. Regarding their identity as pastor's kids, I think they all–all three—I have three children—I think they all deal with it a little differently. I think my first child, she really loved

00:38:39.280 - 00:38:59.540

being at church and she loved the–the–the potlucks and the food and identity and socialization with others. So, she really loved being a pastor's kid and she was really proud of it. I think the other two, they're–they're more shy

00:38:59.890 - 00:39:17.250

about it. They don't tell everybody that they're pastor's kids [laughs] or–or–or bask in it. And I—so I think everybody deals with it a different way. But I–I think I try not to have that be their identity, right?

00:39:17.250 - 00:39:35.440

So I tell them your identity is that you're a believer in Jesus Christ. And that's your main identity, whether I'm the pastor, whether I'm just a lay person, whether I'm–yeah, just coming off from the street visiting this church, nobody knows me [laughs].

00:39:37.490 - 00:39:49.260

That–that's–that's fine. I want your identity to not be tied to me. I want your identity to be yours. And so don't feel constrained by who I am, but

00:39:51.820 - 00:40:07.530

explore your faith on your own. I want you to have your own relationship with Jesus Christ that's not based on me. I'm not Christ. I'm just a pastor, just shepherding people toward Christ. And so, you know, I think a lot of pastor's kids, they feel a lot of pressure to live

00:40:07.530 - 00:40:20.890

up to their parents' identity. And that's a lot of pressure, right? There's enough pressure being a child. Can you imagine the pressure of living up to your parents' identity?

00:40:21.070 - 00:40:35.240

I can't imagine. You know, in some ways I tell this to my kids, I can't imagine being Michael Jordan's son. And trying to play basketball. And that would be very difficult for me if I was Michael Jordan's son and I was

00:40:35.240 - 00:40:50.340

trying to play basketball. And so I don't want my kids to experience something like that, especially with something as important and as vital as their faith in the Lord. And so I try to tell them—I try to, you know, obviously by the nature of

00:40:50.390 - 00:41:08.040

who they are [laughs] as pastor's children, they can't help but face some of those pressures. But I try to alleviate that as much as possible. You know, I try to tell them, yeah, it's not a big deal. You know, I try to, I guess, divert some of the

00:41:08.140 - 00:41:20.090

pressure away from them. Like, you don't have to do these things just because you're my child. If you want to do it because you want to honor the Lord, great. If you don't, that's okay.

00:41:20.090 - 00:41:37.130

KP: Yeah, definitely. KP: As a pastor's kid myself, I definitely understand the things that you're talking KP: about. I just wanted to ask, what are some specific challenges you think a pastor's KP: kid faces? Just in case our listeners aren't exactly sure of what that really

00:41:37.130 - 00:41:53.570

KP: entails. JC: Oh okay. Let me–let me give an example I guess that's probably—I JC: remember one time being at church when my kid was JC: maybe 4 or 5 years old and they were running around sanctuary

00:41:54.140 - 00:42:07.480

JC: and like yelling and screaming. JC: And a lot of the other kids were following my child yelling and screaming and making JC: a ruckus like 4 or 5 year olds do. JC: This is normal for 4 or 5 year olds.

00:42:08.120 - 00:42:24.670

JC: But I remember distinctly an older member of the church coming to me and saying, JC: "Look at your child. What are they doing? JC: They're being a bad influence to the other young children. JC: They should set the good influence by sitting in the first pew and sitting with

00:42:24.670 - 00:42:42.590

JC: their hands on their knees and being well-behaved because they should be the JC: example for all the other children." And I was like, wow. JC: So my child has to sit in the pews [laughs] with their JC: hands on their knees while other kids are having fun, laughing and building connection

00:42:42.590 - 00:43:00.440

JC: with one another. Because those kids are not going to stop just because my kid's sitting JC: on a pew. Okay, that's just—that's reality in my mind. JC: And I was like, wow, I can't believe people would expect that JC: of my child and they would have expected me to grab my child and put them in the

00:43:00.440 - 00:43:20.190

JC: pew to be that example for the other kids. JC: And I was like, wow, how-how am I gonna reply to this statement? JC: And I think my reply, I hope it was gracious [laughs]. My reply at that moment was, like, "Thank you for letting me know.

00:43:22.090 - 00:43:42.200

I'll think about it." I think that's what I said. And then my kid kept running around. I thought about it and I explained to you my thought process before. I was, like, why am I gonna constrain my child from being a child?

00:43:42.520 - 00:43:59.390

This is what children do. To fit your expectation of what my child should be. That had nothing to do with what God says about how a child should be. He says, come to me, little children, right?

00:44:00.590 - 00:44:15.510

When the disciples were trying to keep the kids away, right? And so, yeah. Now, would my reputation take a hit [laughs] because my kid was running around? Maybe to some people.

00:44:17.520 - 00:44:31.540

But if I care for my child, my child should be more important than my own reputation. This is where—when you have power and privilege, you should use it in service for others rather than for yourself.

00:44:32.270 - 00:44:50.910

And so I tried to use my power at that moment to protect my child, at the expense of maybe people thinking badly of me or thinking badly of my family. And that's, you know, that's just comes with the territory, right?

00:44:51.070 - 00:45:04.440

If you're a public figure that happens to you. It's not just pastors. Public figures have to be well behaved in a public setting. And yeah, and in some ways I thought that's unfair.

00:45:05.050 - 00:45:17.000

When I was a child, since my parents were not pastors, I was allowed to run around, I was allowed to be a child. Why can't my child be allowed to be a child? I mean, obviously there's limits here, right?

00:45:17.390 - 00:45:32.820

If they're throwing stones at other kids or beating other kids up, of course, I have to stop that, right? But if they're just running around having fun with other kids, is that something I should stop? That's a balance, right?

00:45:33.410 - 00:45:46.680

Because I think this-this person didn't have bad intentions. They're, like, the sanctuary is a place of worship. We shouldn't have kids running around in there. I agree. But they singled out my child.

00:45:49.440 - 00:46:04.420

And so that made it difficult. I think the way I resolved it is I told all the children to go outside of the sanctuary and, like, please honor this place of worship. This is not a playground.

00:46:05.080 - 00:46:16.230

There's a playground at the back. You guys should go to the playground. I think I resolved it, though. I don't–I don't remember the details. This was quite a while ago, but, I hope

00:46:16.890 - 00:46:33.180

I did that in a gracious way. But, you know, sometimes as a parent, you get emotional and trying to protect your kid, you know? And so—but I don't think I overreacted. It was a Sunday. I was on my best behavior [laughs] and,

00:46:34.730 - 00:46:47.820

yeah, and, you know, thank God we had a playground. I was, like, I think maybe I said, oh, isn't it more fun to run around on the playground than over here? Yeah, something like that. And hopefully they listen.

00:46:48.450 - 00:47:07.340

KL: Yeah, I think that's a really great example of how, like, identity can be KL: passed down to your children and that people are picking up on that and placing their KL: expectations on your kids simply by what you do. KL: And I was also wondering something that I've heard a lot from my friends who are

00:47:07.340 - 00:47:24.570

KL: pastor's kids or even from the pastors themselves is that it's such a hard KL: balance to make sure that you are both being with your family, KL: but also having your church as this family that you are feeling responsible for KL: pastoring. How have you navigated that?

00:47:25.230 - 00:47:39.880

KL: The balance between being at, like, home and being at home, but, like, also having this KL: whole congregation that you feel like are your family that you are kind of looking KL: after as well? JC: Yeah. I mean, you know, the church is the family of God, you know, and I am-I

00:47:41.550 - 00:47:55.810

JC: am a pastor, which comes from the word shepherd, right? JC: I am to shepherd and to care for God's flock. JC: I think the way I navigate that is I understand that even though I'm a JC: shepherd, I'm an under shepherd.

00:47:56.380 - 00:48:11.500

JC: And the great shepherd of the sheep is good, and there's only one great shepherd of the JC: sheep, and that's Jesus Christ. JC: He's ultimately their shepherd, and God is ultimately their father, JC: not me. And so that's kind of how I balance that.

00:48:12.120 - 00:48:26.940

JC: While I'm their shepherd, it—they don't live and die because JC: of me. They live and die because of Jesus Christ. JC: And so that gives me a little freedom. JC: Freedom as the under shepherd to be able to say, hey, God, you're sovereign.

00:48:27.470 - 00:48:43.020

JC: Ultimately, you are their father, not me. JC: And so while, yeah, I should be there when they're sick or when they're in the hospital, JC: whether they're getting surgery, it's—I think I consider it an honor and JC: privilege that I'm there at their most joyous moments,

00:48:43.350 - 00:48:58.200

JC: births, and weddings, and their most difficult moments. JC: Hospital stays and funerals. JC: That's an honor and privilege that I don't take lightly. JC: That people let me into their lives in those moments.

00:49:00.100 - 00:49:16.950

JC: But I think first and foremost in scripture, it tells me my responsibility as a JC: pastor is to take care of my wife and my children. JC: Because in scripture it says that if you don't take good care of your household, JC: how can you take good care of the household of God?

00:49:18.610 - 00:49:34.750

JC: And so that's part of my call as well, to take good care of my wife JC: and my children. And so I want to find that balance between those two, because both can—unfortunately, both can be idols.

00:49:36.500 - 00:49:56.670

We can idolize our work and we can idolize our family. And when we idolize either of those two, we neglect the other. And so the key here is to find the proper balance of both and hold them-hold them with an

00:49:56.670 - 00:50:13.600

open palm, trusting in God. Because the same way I say that the congregation's ultimate father and ultimate shepherd is Christ, the same is for my children. Their ultimate father and ultimate shepherd is not me, it's

00:50:13.630 - 00:50:27.200

Jesus Christ. And so just how I need to hold my congregation with an open hand. I need to hold my children with an open hand that I'm not the one who determines their future. It's God.

00:50:28.280 - 00:50:45.030

I'm not the one who's their savior. It's God. And so I just have to be faithful to the task given to me as their father. And yeah, in a lot of ways, it takes humility that

00:50:45.270 - 00:51:01.300

we're not as important as we think we are sometimes [laughs]. Yes, we're important, but, let's not overstate our own importance. God is way more important than we are.

00:51:01.300 - 00:51:15.370

And ultimately, he's in charge of the direction of the church and the direction of our children's lives. KL: Yeah, I think that's really–that's really great. KL: That it's kind of fighting against taking on your own savior complex in order to defer to

00:51:15.370 - 00:51:33.850

KL: the true savior. I was wondering—this is kind of switching gears a little bit. KL: In terms of Texas specifically, how has it been navigating just KL: Texas culture for you as a pastor and parent? KL: But also, have you noticed a difference in parenting style between being in

00:51:33.850 - 00:51:47.850

KL: Texas versus, say, I know you were in the East Coast for a while? JC: Yeah, well, I think, what I appreci—I'll tackle JC: Texas culture first. JC: I think when I first moved here, I was a little culture-shocked because it

00:51:48.650 - 00:52:04.580

JC: was very different than growing up in the Northeast and it's just a different culture. JC: I never had people call me sir, and in JC: so many times during a day, it just—was like, wow, people were JC: so respectful.

00:52:04.580 - 00:52:19.220

JC: People were so, chivalrous. JC: I think that's a good word to describe how Texas is. JC: I think Texas still has chivalry. JC: This-this code of how we should treat one another.

00:52:19.460 - 00:52:36.320

JC: We should hold the door open for one another. JC: We should say hi to one another walking down the street. JC: We should call each other sir and ma'am and a lot of parts of our JC: country today, especially the coasts, a lot of that chivalry has gone by the wayside,

00:52:36.560 - 00:52:47.890

JC: right? We're more about transparency, more about—I grew up JC: in the Northeast where it's more in-your-face. JC: It's all about authenticity. JC: It's all about being real.

00:52:50.260 - 00:53:09.590

JC: And I was like, we don't have to be so real all the time, okay? JC: There's something about something to be said about decorum and-and JC: chivalry. And I think that's kind of what I experienced here in Texas. JC: While I'm used to the-the-the-the grittiness and the realness of the Northeast,

00:53:10.370 - 00:53:29.330

JC: I've learned over the years as I've adjusted to the culture of Texas to JC: appreciate that, wow, there is chivalry here that causes us to JC: bite our tongue and to-to hold back some of the JC: thoughts that maybe shouldn't be aired out at certain moments

00:53:30.180 - 00:53:49.090

JC: and allows us to treat each other with respect and dignity. I think one disadvantage of that—if you're so used to doing that, is that you never get to the realness and authenticity that-that the Northeast has strength for.

00:53:49.210 - 00:54:07.810

I never have to worry about someone in Northeast to know what they think about me because they will tell me what they think about me straight to my face. That's very different. And there's moments where you need somebody to be raw and honest with you, and-and-and I think while I appreciate the

00:54:07.810 - 00:54:23.930

chivalry, I think it's gonna be heightened when there's discernment, when to-to-to be able to let the chivalry go by the wayside and just be authentic and raw and honest with somebody about what you really feel about certain things.

00:54:25.080 - 00:54:39.350

And like I said, there's a balance there. There's a dance there, but I've gotten to really appreciate. Yeah, the chivalry that's here in Texas. The second part of your question, could you repeat that, Karis?

00:54:41.710 - 00:54:50.000

I only—I think I only addressed the first part. Yeah. KL: Yeah. It was the difference between East Coast and Texas parenting style. JC: Oh, the parenting styles.

00:54:50.560 - 00:55:08.900

JC: I think the parenting styles JC: differ because of schedules. JC: I'll put it that. It'll diff—it differs because of schedules, because a lot of times JC: in the Northeast, I saw we had many couples who were working two

00:55:08.900 - 00:55:29.560

JC: jobs, so their—both the husband and the wife were working was what I JC: meant by that. And they would work long hours and they would JC: commute. And so when you have long hours, when you have a lot of JC: high pressure jobs and you're commuting, even though you care for and

00:55:29.560 - 00:55:49.850

JC: love your children, there's not a lot of time for you to invest in them. JC: And so, it's-it's a JC: difficult to, in a busy JC: environment, to-to nur-nurture, a lot of face

00:55:50.420 - 00:56:02.070

JC: time with your kids. JC: Because in the Northeast there's a lot of financial pressure. JC: The cost of living is higher. JC: I think I've noticed in Texas there's a lot more single income

00:56:02.070 - 00:56:19.370

JC: families where they're stay at home moms because the JC: cost of living is lower. JC: And so they're able to maintain a household with a single income. JC: And when you have that, you have a little more involvement in the kids'

00:56:19.370 - 00:56:37.170

JC: activities with their sports and with their extracurricular activities and JC: with the PTA. And so I see, there's maybe more helicopter parenting, you could call that. I don't know whether that's positive or negative, but

00:56:37.380 - 00:56:56.140

there's more involvement in-in the children's lives. I would say more or less, it's a positive. Unless it's overbearing, then it can become, a little more negative. And so I think that's a difference.

00:56:56.200 - 00:57:12.810

I think it's the—then I've noticed the time–the time aspect. And Northeastern parents love their children and they want to invest as much time as possible. But some of their work pressures preclude them from investing as much time as

00:57:12.810 - 00:57:29.150

Texas parents have on their children. And so, in some ways, I think some of the Texas athletes are really, really good because the parents invest a lot of time in their-in their training, in their particular sport, whether it's baseball or football or basketball or

00:57:30.130 - 00:57:41.220

swimming, volleyball, what have you. I mean, I think some of the top athletes in our country come from Texas. So. KP: Yeah. Thank you for sharing.

00:57:41.220 - 00:57:54.110

KP: I think that's a really interesting insight. KP: I never really thought about differences in parenting in different parts of the country, KP: but yeah, kind of switching gears here, how important do you think the church community KP: was when you were raising your children?

00:57:55.570 - 00:58:14.560

JC: I thought they were—they were vital and they were priceless. JC: It was–it was just really special to have a community of JC: people to navigate parenthood and the difficulties of JC: parenthood when you're a first time parent and to experience that

00:58:14.560 - 00:58:32.700

JC: together with other young couples and to pray for one another and JC: to help each other, to cook for one another, when you know, JC: one of the–one of the mothers gives birth. JC: To have advice from older women who have older children or who

00:58:32.700 - 00:58:47.620

JC: are empty nesters and older men who are—who have JC: older children and empty nesters. JC: This was really valuable for me and my wife. JC: I think to have a loving community around you that's pouring into you,

00:58:49.070 - 00:59:06.090

JC: and experiencing it together with people in the same life stage as well JC: as people in a life stage ahead of you who can JC: share their experiences, their triumphs and their struggles, as well as the young JC: people who want to play with your children.

00:59:07.180 - 00:59:27.000

JC: And so it's—I think as a JC: young parent, I could really see the value of having a multigenerational church JC: where every generation is represented and every JC: generation is pouring out into one another and

00:59:27.350 - 00:59:42.660

JC: blessing one another. JC: And I think that's really a beautiful picture of church JC: where each generation is speaking about God to one another, but also JC: blessing one another with—in practical ways.

00:59:43.460 - 01:00:00.470

JC: So yeah, we would—I don't think JC: we would have been able to navigate having young children, several young JC: children at the same time, without, just the love JC: and the care that was given to us by Christian community.

01:00:00.740 - 01:00:13.550

JC: That's—that was very special and-and very precious. KL: I think that's really a beautiful picture of how the multigenerational church can really KL: support child raising. KL: And my mom always says it takes a village.

01:00:13.550 - 01:00:31.510

KL: So yeah, I think, yeah, very much that's illustrating that. KL: Kind of circling back to a common theme throughout this interview, how KL: involved did you think you were, or are you, in your children's education? JC: How involved in my children's education?

01:00:32.110 - 01:00:49.290

JC: I'm pretty involved in a lot of ways. JC: I—whenever they have, you know, problems with their homework or trying to solve JC: something, they would ask me and-and I try to help. JC: A lot of these subjects, I haven't studied in a very long time, so it's a

01:00:49.310 - 01:01:06.730

JC: challenge. I think I remember when my son was going through Algebra one in middle JC: school and-and he was asking me for help and I was, like, JC: I haven't studied this forever. JC: Oh, my. And so I actually had to Google how to do algebra again.

01:01:06.730 - 01:01:22.820

JC: Certain things that I've forgotten. JC: And I had to relearn algebra so I could teach him and I could tutor him. JC: But it was fun. I thought it was a good experience. JC: So it's funny because, you know, we could both see our learning curve improve as we

01:01:22.820 - 01:01:38.630

JC: were—I was helping him. JC: Yeah. And I think, you know, relationship with your children, JC: is enhanced when you can help each other and you can sit down JC: and—because it's not just the work.

01:01:38.790 - 01:01:49.290

JC: You're, like, sitting down and you're talking about life and talking about school, JC: it-it's an organic way of creating conversation rather than sit there and let's JC: talk. And that's kind of awkward, right?

01:01:49.370 - 01:02:05.120

It's like, how are you gonna—what are we going to talk about? But if you're helping them with the things that they're going through and—it takes a lot of effort and sacrifice. But if, like I said, if you value something, then you will invest in it.

01:02:05.480 - 01:02:21.390

You invest in the things that you value. And, you know, as an Asian American, we value education. And so we would invest our time and effort to help our kids with their education. So if they need proofreading of their paper, then you would read

01:02:21.590 - 01:02:33.260

the paper, you would proofread it. Now you misspelled this. You should punctuate it this way. Little things like that, I think, communicate to the kids

01:02:33.790 - 01:02:52.860

that you value education more than the forcing them part, right? Because you're actually sacrificing your time and your effort to help them get something and understand something and comprehend something rather than just say, just do it because I said so, right?

01:02:53.490 - 01:03:10.280

I think that doesn't communicate value of education as much as walking with them through it. KL: Very similarly, I guess in terms of the idea of forcing kids through things, KL: how involved are you in your children's spiritual journey?

01:03:10.280 - 01:03:24.160

KL: Because I know that, like, such a hard tension, is that okay you don't want to force KL: them to do anything and you want them to have their own faith journey, but at the same KL: time you feel responsibility as their parent to inculcate certain KL: values. So how have you done that?

01:03:25.620 - 01:03:38.600

JC: Yeah. So, like, one of the practices we have as a family is we have a JC: family devotional time. JC: And so we—it's a short devotional that we go through together. JC: Sometimes we sing songs.

01:03:38.890 - 01:03:50.910

JC: There's prayers, there's a reading of the word, and then there's a short reflection JC: by an author that we go through. JC: And then we maybe sometimes we talk through questions. JC: I try not to make it too lengthy.

01:03:51.470 - 01:04:08.350

JC: It's not a worship service. JC: It's just family time where we're able to share and open up with one another. JC: But the context is spiritual and the context is God's word. JC: We recently just went through a book written by a friend of mine, Esther

01:04:08.350 - 01:04:24.450

JC: Lu. She's Asian American, an Asian American author, and she wrote this JC: book a devotional on shame, like, how do we deal with shame? JC: And I think as Asian Americans, that's a difficult JC: topic to-to discuss and to go through.

01:04:24.500 - 01:04:38.690

JC: You know, we all deal with shame. JC: What does it–what does it mean for us to give our shame over to the Lord? JC: And-and it was a kudos to Esther Lu, who wrote this book. JC: It was really beautifully, beautifully well done, beautifully well written.

01:04:39.190 - 01:04:52.520

JC: And really my kids and I had really good, deep JC: conversations as we went through this devotional. JC: And I was really thankful for that. JC: And so, yeah, I mean, that's one way, we're able to connect spiritually as a

01:04:52.520 - 01:05:10.220

JC: family. We try to do it daily, JC: but I try not to be dogmatic about that. So if they have a lot of homework, if they have a play, a extracurricular activity, then we would put a pause that day on the

01:05:10.220 - 01:05:28.420

family devotional. I try not to make it a chore. I try to make it something that's something we all value when we do together. The other thing is—that I do is I give them rewards when they do their quiet times.

01:05:28.420 - 01:05:48.460

And so, like, one of my children, she-she does a journal for her quiet times and she dates the journal. And then if she does a certain amount of dates, I think in a month, you know, she's done her journal for a month and done her

01:05:48.460 - 01:06:02.360

quiet times, then I would give her a reward for, you know, spending time with God. I mean, spending time with God is a reward in and of itself. But, you know, as a father, I want to incent that.

01:06:02.580 - 01:06:17.870

I was like, that's great. I'll give you a reward, too [laughs]. So-so that's kind of my incentive to them. I give them a reward for the quiet times they spent with the Lord in reading his word and spending time with him.

01:06:18.470 - 01:06:35.160

Because, you know, I think, as I mentioned to you guys before, if you value something, then you would incent them to do it, right? You know, your incentives will match what you value. And so I want to incent them to spend more time with God.

01:06:35.660 - 01:06:44.810

Hence, I reward that kind of behavior. KP: Yeah, I think that's a really great way to go about it. KP: Just incentivizing them. KP: I think that's really smart.

01:06:45.400 - 01:07:04.380

KP: Kind of switching gears, what do you think is one of the more difficult things that you KP: faced while raising your children? JC: One of the most difficult things that I've raised—faced in raising—w JC: hen they've experienced bullying or when they've experienced

01:07:06.210 - 01:07:23.410

JC: racism. I think those things really hurt me as a JC: father, as a parent. JC: You know, it's hard not to take those things personal, when it happens to your JC: children. You know, praise the Lord, they're-they're growing

01:07:23.410 - 01:07:39.660

JC: up, like I said, in a much better environment than I did, back in the 80s. JC: But, you know, it's not—it's a sinful and broken world that we live in. JC: It's not perfect, right? JC: And so, yeah, you know, when they face bullying, when they face,

01:07:41.750 - 01:07:59.850

JC: racism, then, you know, I try to walk with them through it, JC: maybe cry with them through it. JC: Find—try to find reasonable solutions by talking to the principal JC: or talking-talking through what they're going through and

01:07:59.850 - 01:08:18.200

JC: listening. Yeah, there's probably, that's—I think JC: for any parent, you don't want your children to be hurt, right? JC: And so I think those things are probably the hardest things JC: that you walk with them through, and especially if

01:08:18.600 - 01:08:37.410

JC: you encountered that before yourself and you're like, "Oh, I don't want my kids to JC: encounter that." And so. But, you know, I think, you know, trials are meant to strengthen us and–and point us toward God,

01:08:37.880 - 01:08:56.650

right? They're not meant to crush us. And so, like, how do we deal with it in a way that-that it doesn't crush us but allows us to trust in God and-and to cling to him. And so I just try to help them, you know, how to pray for your

01:08:56.650 - 01:09:14.540

bully. I think I was really–I was really encouraged by-by one of my kids in their prayers that at night when they were being bullied, they prayed for-for God to forgive their bully and for God to

01:09:16.600 - 01:09:31.020

just help them not be a bully anymore. And I was really touched by that prayer. You know, she-she didn't pray for revenge. She didn't pray for—something bad would happen

01:09:31.270 - 01:09:49.830

to this person. But she prayed for-for God to change their heart. And she prayed for forgiveness for this person. The good news is, I think, maybe a year or two later, they—they're on relatively good

01:09:49.830 - 01:10:04.620

terms and–and have reconciled to some degree. And-and so I was like, oh that's-that's healthy. That's—you don't want to have a toxic relationship with others. And so in some ways, God has really answered that prayer.

01:10:06.240 - 01:10:22.350

And–and I'm glad that she was able to see God answer a prayer, a heartfelt prayer in that way. KP: Wow. Yeah, that's so touching. KP: That is—I can't imagine how much love and maturity it must take for her to take that

01:10:22.350 - 01:10:32.280

KP: step. JC: I was-I was-I was surprised. JC: It was, like, she was in elementary school, so I was very surprised. KP: Yeah, for sure.

01:10:32.280 - 01:10:55.240

KP: Kind of on the same path, what's something that you think your children have taught you? JC: Taught me? I think JC: they—they've taught me to relax [laughs]. JC: In some ways that things will turn out even when I don't plan

01:10:55.270 - 01:11:15.120

JC: everything to its minute detail, right? JC: I mean, I think—so JC: we have this tendency to want to control things and–and to want to be able to say, if JC: I do A, B, and C, it will result in D, right?

01:11:16.330 - 01:11:31.930

JC: And so you're very diligent in doing A, B and C to result in D, but JC: rearing children is not like that. JC: It's not a formula. JC: And what works for one child, doesn't work in

01:11:32.020 - 01:11:49.650

JC: another. It's like, wait, no thought it's a formula. JC: And-and so over the years I've realized, it's not a formula. JC: I can't control everything and I can't force everything to be the JC: way I want it to be.

01:11:49.670 - 01:12:03.970

JC: It's tough to relax. JC: And they've-they've taught me to trust in God more and to JC: trust them more. JC: And so, it's not easy as a parent.

01:12:03.970 - 01:12:21.830

JC: I want to control, want to protect. JC: But that's a good lesson to learn, to trust in God and to trust JC: in what God is doing in your children's lives and not overreacting. And-and know that they have their own faith journey, that they

01:12:21.830 - 01:12:36.040

have their own processes to get through their own struggles. And they might not get to the same conclusion in the same way I got to them. But as long as they got to the same conclusion, that's great.

01:12:36.650 - 01:12:52.440

It's just they went through a different road to get to that same conclusion. And yeah, I mean think, yeah, one of the most frustrating things that parents want for their kids is, like, we could take everything here and download it to our kids, right?

01:12:52.930 - 01:13:03.030

All of our life experiences, all of the many decades of life and lessons learned. We want to take this and download it to our kids. That's not how it works.

01:13:04.380 - 01:13:18.370

And even my-my OS might not fit their environment because they know their environment much better. They'll be saying these slang words from the 80s to people like "What are you talking about?" You know? So,

01:13:20.620 - 01:13:39.170

yeah, so I think that's—yeah, I hope that answers your question. KL: Yeah, for sure. Kind of wrapping up, our concluding question is KL: what is your biggest hope for your children in the future? JC: My biggest hope. Do you want the-the boilerplate

01:13:39.920 - 01:13:56.270

JC: answer? The boilerplate answer is that, you know, I want them to JC: have a vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ. JC: I want them to honor God and-and to love others around JC: them. Yeah,

01:13:58.940 - 01:14:20.650

JC: it's-it's a-it's a very simple boilerplate answer, but I think it's-it's JC: my hope that they'll be able to navigate the world JC: and-and be a productive member of society and-and to share God's JC: shalom with those around them, and to love God and

01:14:20.830 - 01:14:40.250

JC: to love others. It's-it's really a very simple hope. JC: You know, I-I'm trying to think of a more sophisticated JC: answer than my boilerplate answer, but it's just a simple-it's a JC: simple hope for them that they would have healthy, productive lives,

01:14:40.250 - 01:15:00.970

JC: that they would find joy with their-with their JC: community, and-and live-live JC: out their-their calling, you know, to live to JC: its best-best form, whatever God calls

01:15:00.970 - 01:15:10.460

JC: them to be and to do. KL: Yeah, it may be boilerplate, but I think it's still very beautiful. JC: Okay, good. Thank you. KL: It still has its truth, you know?

01:15:10.460 - 01:15:23.160

KL: [JC: Yeah, amen.] Yeah. KL: Is there anything else that you would want to say or share to add on to this topic in KL: any way? JC: Yeah, I mean I think it's great that Karis and Karina, that you are

01:15:23.160 - 01:15:43.220

JC: doing this exploration of Asian-American parenthood, JC: as well as how faith impacts that. JC: I think it's important for the next generation to understand, JC: like, how parenting is so influential

01:15:43.530 - 01:15:59.490

JC: in-in how we view our own culture, how we view ourselves and how JC: we celebrate our culture. JC: I know my parents have been very influential of JC: me and how to be proud of my heritage, and to be

01:16:00.830 - 01:16:15.600

JC: to-to be not ashamed of how God created me. JC: And I think that's something that's—I want to pass on to my JC: kids as well. JC: So, you know, parents are some of the most influential

01:16:16.390 - 01:16:28.200

JC: people in our lives, at least the first portion of our lives. JC: But that influence doesn't have to wane if children have good relationships with their JC: parents. KL: Thank you so much. I'm going to end the recording.