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Today is April 30th 1969. The time is ah 740 here is Polly Moore and the interviewee is Mr James Gregory Watt. This is interview number seven tape number three side two, Greg. I'd like to uh uh start off with the um your first participation in uh

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the faculty advisory and committee work. Um or maybe we could even start a little before that. Um Do you recall um what your impression was or your reaction was when you first heard that Kenneth Pitzer had resigned? What was your attitude back in those days? Quite

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unhappy that he had left actually, uh because I recognized that if Stanford asked him to be the president, that they must have a very high regard for him. And so I knew that we had had a winner. I was sorry that we had lost him. I

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had uh some pretty strong ideas about rice and the direction that it should be going uh as an individual. And so that is why originally was interviewed by the Student Association for a position on a committee of 11 students, which was the student advisory committee on

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presidential selection. Tell me how you say you have some strong ideas about the direction that rice should take. Let's go into those for just a moment. What are some of your aspirations for rice? Well, I feel very strongly that it should be more nationally oriented and

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that has to open up in to aspire to be a school of national greatness. And I think that it coming from Michigan where it has a good reputation. I think it's very close to being in that position and I wanted it to, uh, to get the

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kind of president who, who would be recognized on a national level, who would recognize these national aspirations. And, uh, particularly there, there seems to be a sort of a quota system where a larger percentage of people are taken from Texas and Houston, even though a larger

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percentage of applicants are from out of state. And I felt that this is a sort of a prejudice that how it should be set aside. Are we, are, do you have any reason to believe that these prejudices are more than just, ah, administrative decisions or? Well,

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I think they, I think they come from the character of the university's original charter and I'm not real sure what it said, but I think it was set up for white students of Texas or something restricted like that. And I think that having broken the Charter

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on numerous occasions to admit Negroes and, uh, to charge tuition and various other things. That there isn't any reason that uh they should follow some idea of the charter if it impedes Rice from becoming as good a school as it can become. And I also wanted,

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I I also felt that it was time for Rice to expand uh from being such a technically oriented school into the the other areas. And that at this particular time, you see, we had just received nice gifts from uh several donors in the field of music

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and fine arts and uh hard so that I felt that we were in a very good position to get just the, the highest caliber man for president. And we'd also just completed a, a very successful fun drive. So all in all, we, there was a very

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buoyant optimism all over the campus. And uh I felt that it would, it was a good opportunity to really uh get a fine person to be president and the one that could lead Rice. Were you very vocal about these ideas uh to your uh uh uh

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peers and other students? We have, we talk among my group. I'm not a politician type but, you know, because I touched all kinds of people on campus, but, but I think there was a good deal of discussion just in small groups, you know, among roommates, that

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sort of thing. So that when it came to, uh uh how did you, were you all in the student committee of 11 or were you, they, they set up a program where you could go and be interviewed by the Student Association as a group. And then

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they appointed four members to this committee and then each college appointed one more member so that there were a total of seven from the colleges and four from the S A, the Student Association. And so there were 11 all together. And then this group of 11

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which is supposed to represent the whole student body had to reduce their number to two because two was the only reasonable number joining the faculty committee. So when you got on the committee of 11, did you come from the college or through the sa I came

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through the Student Association having interviewed, wasn't there. So your interest had compelled you to take some positive action to try to get your views to the poor. Tell me about um, ah, what you can about your, um, your meetings with the faculty advisory committee. Ah, did

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you have many, um, names turned in from various sources? Did you have many to discuss? I think one of the uh articles referred to 60 or so names is, is that figure accurate or? Yes, I think it is, ah, we had about 64 names. I think

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that figure comes back and I'm not sure if it's correct and, and these names were uh basically those submitted by faculty or alumni and they were not names which we had gone out in search of, at that point, you see, they were ones that we had

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solicited names from the faculty and from the alumni. And in response to that, uh we had gotten this list of about 64 but we had, we were in the process of discussing the usual ways of acquiring more names that is by going to the major foundations

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and to college presidents of the major universities and that sort of thing. How did you, how did you uh screen these names? Uh These names had been turned into you? Uh Was there any data that had been a, had, had accompanied these suggestions or did you

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have to go out and do research on these things or? Well, we, uh most people who suggested a name were asked, uh either they voluntarily or were asked to submit some sort of information. Uh Obviously they had some reason why they were suggesting a name and

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we, uh we didn't want to get just a name and nothing else, although we did get some of those. And so then we, we had a secretary and I think it was uh doctor Broadens secretary, but I couldn't be sure who had typed these all up

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and uh with their age and major and where they'd gone to school and that sort of thing. And each person that had a folder of their own and we were, but just prior to this uh masters in affair, we had gotten to the point where we

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had assembled all these folders and we had each read them all and made comments and of course, there was, uh, being a student, a lot of them, I couldn't have any real input except to say, I don't know enough to have an opinion on this person.

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Would that, would that be an indication where there was very little information in the folder about very much a problem with that? And we hadn't really reached the point. Uh We hadn't narrowed down this group enough so that it to be worthwhile to uh write letters

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to the board chairman or faculty members at the other schools and get real deep analysis of the can. Was there any research done such as going to newspaper files and trying to get an idea of what the achievements of these people had been or did the

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faculty members in the committee pretty well rely on their knowledge of, of who's who in the country at the present time, superficial level that we were at and we were still trying to narrow it down before we got it to the level where we'd be looking

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at newspapers that and so, uh unless somebody had very strong opinions on, on one person who was very impressed with them enough to write a letter and solicit a, a deep analysis, we didn't have letters of that kind at this point. These meetings started before Christmas

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did they? Uh Yes, I think the first one was before Christmas. I couldn't remember the exact dates when we had them. And, uh, the problem was always that, uh, we weren't exactly sure. It hadn't quite been clarified what our position was in regard to the board

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of trustees and their parallel committee. And so we were waiting actually to have a joint meeting, but through a variety of circumstances, we never had that joint meeting together with the board. And so we were always a little bit uh held back by that by not

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knowing exactly what we should be doing, uh until this meeting came about. And then finally, we just decided, well, we'd better go ahead and start working because it couldn't very easily be that the board wasn't doing anything, you know, felt that we shouldn't start. So we

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did, what was your impression of the role of the committee at this time? Well, my impression came uh largely through Dr Bratton who had been talking to the chairman of it, but the, from what he told us, I got the idea of that, uh we were

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going to follow the process very much like that, which selected Kenneth Pitzer. And if I understood that correctly, what happened was this the faculty committee and in this case, faculty and students uh solicited the names and that was going to be our function too, write to

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the college presidents and to foundations and to do all the, that sort of work and that, then we would uh limited down our selection process down to a group of five or 10, something like that and we would submit this to the board. But, but that

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the board was under no obligation to take one of those then, although it seemed to us at that time that they probably would and they had given us some criteria to go by which seemed very generous and very much what we were thinking ourselves. So we

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were happy about those points. What criteria specifically did you understand that the board was going to be using in its selection process? Well, of course, they didn't say that they were going to be using it, but they, but they seem to indicate that they thought that

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a younger man was perfectly acceptable and that uh there was no uh restrictions so far as him having to be in the humanities or in the sciences and that he ought to be primarily a scholar. And I can't, I, I think that was basically the gist

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of it, but it all seemed to be the sort of forward looking things that we also were thinking. Did you ever have occasion to see the memorandum or the letter that uh uh in which the uh the faculty advisory committee was actually set up, was that

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part of your business? So you get most of your information from the chairman of the committee who was not correct. Well, uh we're, we're brought up to the Masterson um announcement. Now, uh tell me how you first became aware that the board had made a decision.

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What were you doing? Well, I was, uh we had gotten a rather urgent message from Doctor Bratton's secretary to that we should have a meeting on Thursday. And so I knew it had happened because I could just tell me the way of the meeting which was

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unexpected. And then on Thursday after the meeting was that morning already, there were rumors that something had happened, sort of what kind of rumors were going around on Thursday morning. I think there were rumors that the president had been chosen. And I think that I even

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told a couple of people that I didn't think that was true. You know, I really couldn't see how that could have happened because the last that I knew the board had not even met yet at all. And so I thought that seems a little unlikely, but

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by the afternoon, I was, you know, ready for anything to happen. And so uh I went to uh for my architecture class, I went to the meeting in space science room and Mr Teague and Mr Allen were both also present at that meeting. And so they

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proceeded to tell us that the war had made a decision. So it didn't take long to find out after I got it had, had you ever met Mr Allen or Mr Teague before? No I have never met either one of them. What was your reaction to

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the announcement? Well, um, I was very disappointed and I sort of sensed that the other members of the faculty members on the committee were very disappointed also. And it was kind of a sense of uh, uselessness of happiness, gone through all this trouble and really for

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nothing pointless activity. Did you make any comment to, uh, in this meeting? I think I said something, but I can't remember just what I didn't say very much. And I know that what do you recall, whether what you said would have indicated a disappointment or displeasure

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and make the event or the announcement? Well, I think that uh I asked a more specific question about Masterson or something of that nature, I wasn't thinking about, you know, the larger picture at that particular point. Did you know anything about Masterson at this point? Um

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No, I, well, I only knew that we had mentioned his name earlier when we were going through our 60 names. And that at that time, someone had brought up the fact that, well, I think it was Mr Cardell that wanted to uh put him on a

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list of five that we sent to the board and suggested to him and said he was a good friend and he thought he was a good dog. And another of the faculty members at that point said something to the effect that um if Bill Masterson came

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back, half the academic faculty would leave and then the, uh, the rest of us all said, well, we have plenty of fine choices here that, you know, sort of would make him ridiculous, wouldn't it? And so we just, uh eliminated end point. Did you have any

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impression of Masterson before this, how you say before? Um, you were on this committee? Had you heard anything? Never really heard of him except, well, I knew I had heard of him. I knew that he had brought the journal of Southern History here and it helped

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Dr Vandever with it because he had Van had mentioned that in class and I knew that he had some relationship with the Harris Masterson who are wealthy Houston people and that, and that, you know, it was very unclear, you know, exactly what he had done when

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he was here. Let me ask you this, uh, Greg, you mentioned, um, earlier that, uh, you, you had some strong, ah, ideas about, uh, the direction rice should go and the kind of president, uh, rice would need in order to, uh, make an effective, uh, move

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in your direction. Did you yourself have any ideas or preferences as to, ah, a, ah, a president? What were you looking for? Well, it was looking, uh, primarily for a person who was, and had a, perhaps a national reputation or at least, uh, a national presence

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so that he, he wasn't equated with the Southwest or with Texas. And I had even suggested that, that we had not consider people at rise or graduates at rice. Not because I didn't think that they were qualified, but because I thought that, uh, there's an element

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of inbred in getting someone like that and that it was not the proper time for rice to congratulate itself by doing something like that. And, uh, actually, when I had made the suggestion to the committee, it was not well received and you made the suggestion of

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the advisory committee. Yes. And most of the members thought that that was prejudice and that if a person was really well qualified, it didn't make much difference if they were here or if they were a rice graduate or anything else they were. And I'm just looking

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for a good person. But so, uh one thing I was looking for was not, was someone who was not equated with the situation and who would come in with a lot of fresh ideas and with a national outlook. Did, did your um uh aspirations for president

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fix on any particular individual or did you have anybody that you particularly want to see come in who represented what you were looking for? Well, I had done some work on my own prior to the masters and affair and I had talked to President Calvin Vander

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Werf of Hope College, which is in my hometown. And before him, I had talked to the president of Michigan State, uh, John Hannah, and I had also had talked about sailing one time when, with Dr Pitzer, when he was here. So I had formed a sort

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of an opinion of the kind of man who was a college president and all three of those gentlemen, very impressive people who, you know, and you can, they have a certain look in their eyes and, you know, certain awesomeness that makes them college presidents, I guess.

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So. You know, I didn't have, I hadn't focused on any individual but I knew the sort of type of person that I was looking for, but you hadn't, in your own experience, you hadn't, you hadn't found anybody who really satisfied your, um, your ideas of, of

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the, who was the right man to rise? No, I mean, I really couldn't observe any particular person at that. We're getting back to the, um, the day the Boston committee met with, uh Mr Allen and Mr Tea about, how long did that meeting last? Do you

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recall? Well, I think it lasted about half an hour and 40 minutes. What, what went on after the announcement was the announcement, lengthy or short? Or the announcement was fairly, uh short. And then Herbert Allen explained that some of the reasons that they had chosen Doctor

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Masterson and he apologized for the fact that that events had gotten out of control or something to that effect. What did you mean by that in your opinion, events getting out of control. Well, um my first reaction was that it was extreme thoughtlessness that, that, uh

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and rather stupid really that, that it could be allowed to be thought of as just a detail having talked to us beforehand, rather than one of the major things that they should have done. And you see at that, after the conclusion of his announcement, then the

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faculty members expressed some of their apprehension at, at the end reception that Masterson would get. And so then it, it took on an even more serious feeling for me who, who prior to that time wasn't, you know, really sure how ominous Master would be or could

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be. So that, that my original reaction was dismay and that they hadn't talked to us. And then it, and then complicated by the feeling that, uh perhaps isn't the right man either. See, this came out fairly soon and I think the, uh we sort of went

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around the table and the different faculty members expressed their dismay at the way it was done and uh sort of they feelings about what might happen just because of the enemies that Masterson had made was the atmosphere sort of coup or were tempers getting sort of

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riled up or what was the tone at this time? It seemed to be one more of resignation of, oh, we've made a, we have a big problem here. What can we do about it? But there seemed to be an acceptance of the fact. Well, I, I

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think we, I asked him, uh, Mr Allen that if, uh, if there was anything that could be done, if an, if no, it's a irrevocable decision because of certain things that brought it down already. And at that point, Dr Chapman suggested that, uh, you know, we

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have this situation so we had better make the most of it. Did you interpret that time to be faster or? No, I considered that it went along fairly well with what I had seen as Dr Chapman's personality. You seem to be very conciliatory type person, very

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accepting of. Was there anyone who just didn't want to accept this decision at all? Did you get the idea at this time that, that, that it might be as serious as it later turned out to be? Well, I could tell by looking at Doctor Bodson and

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uh Doctor Salzburg that they were deeply worried about it. And uh I think that Barry Kaplan said something, you know about him being one of the, the people she most uh was warned against. I think she said something to the effect that people had warned her.

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Don't, you know, we don't want Lyndon Johnson or Bill Masterson. And uh I thought that was significant although, you know, I wasn't sure if I believed it was this, uh did this form an impression in your mind that these two were just about equally uh uh,

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since they came in, in a pair here. Well, II, I felt there must be something, uh, very conservative or about matress and freak because I didn't think he was political. But I sort of intuitively made that guess from the fact that Barry is fairly liberal. This

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is going through my head and I don't know, didn't give him too much relevance. But what did you do when the meeting was over? Well, I just, we announced that we were going to have a meeting to tell the student leaders the next day on Friday

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early and then immediately afterwards, the faculty was going to have their meeting. So I just went back to my room and we bound to secrecy on this. Yes, we were supposed to talk about it then, although there were rumors then going around too, but we just

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pretended that we didn't know anything, said you'll find out tomorrow. Ok. Then what happened? Uh when did, when did the meeting start with the student leaders? And what happened then? Well, I think that was at, uh it was a half an hour before the faculty meeting

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started. See, this is Friday, this Friday. Is this an afternoon meeting? Right? And I can't remember the exact time when it started. But uh to at that point, an awful lot of people seem to know because there were a lot of students there who I guess

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the word was pretty well out that a President had been chosen and people weren't sure who yet. And uh there were a lot of people at the meeting that I didn't expect to see of the student leaders. They were the college presidents and then our, uh,

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the two representatives and there were a group of others that wanted to get in and they were for, some were from the SDS and some from just various interested students that, that would be interested in this sort of, but not representing organizations, just interested individuals. And

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some of them got in and some of them didn't, the room was pretty packed because we met in the space science seminar room and people had to stand up all the way around the outside. How many would you guess were there? Oh, I guess 25 to

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30 or something like that? So small room. So that, so there were three of you from the committee from the faculty advisory committee, you and Barry and George, was he there? Yes, he was there. And then what are there? Seven college presidents and then the USA

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president and vice president? And were there any other student leaders there? We all the rest beyond that. It's hard to remember. I think the editor of the um Thrasher was there and some of you see, we just had elections and so some of the old presidents

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were there and some of the new presidents were there at the same time. So there was a duplication of the presidents and who handled who chaired this meeting. Uh Well, I think that Doctor Brownson uh opened it up and then Herbert Allen proceeded to tell the

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students that of the board's decision. So, so actually was, was any other member of the faculty or board of trustees there besides Doctor Bronson and doctor uh Mr uh doctor bro and Mr Allen, I just don't do. What was the question? Any other faculty members? Yes.

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The other members of our faculty committee were there. So it was a whole faculty advisory committee who met with the student leaders, right? And uh Mr Teague and Mr Allen, who also, what about this uh student committee of 11? Were, were they there or I don't

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think that's what let me think now, I can't remember. I really can't even remember if they were there or not. That seems terrible. But uh uh yes, I think they were there. I seem vaguely to recall calling them, you tell them to come like that, you

00:30:29.040 - 00:30:43.890

know, I just didn't think about who was there. So Doctor Bratton opened up the meeting introduced Mr Allen, did Mr Allen change his announcement in any way from the time that he had made the announcement to the faculty advisory committee? Well, he started out by saying

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a little more dramatic than he'd had a 45 year love affair with rice. And uh and he sort of was more, he was sad. A little bit. I think he sensed the response was rather negative to the way the whole thing had been done. But, uh,

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even at that meeting, uh, still there was the sense of resignation that this has happened, you know, and what were we going to do about it? But there were some, uh, you know, the people were a little more angry and, uh, of course, the angriest ones

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didn't get into the meeting, they were outside, but, you know, you sort of sense their presence. It's OK. How long did this meeting last? This meeting didn't last very long. I would say about 20 minutes or what kind of reaction did Mr Allen get after his

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announcement? Who said, who said what anything? Well, yes, uh people said various things criticizing the way the whole thing had been handled. And uh Ben Warren Scone read a statement about the fact that trust had been broken between the students and the board and he, he

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wrote it very solemnly but not antagonistically, not like an ultimatum, but just a, the solid tone. And that was the highlight of the media is, yeah, there someone had prepared a statement about the thing that was passing them out even at this meeting. I, I think

00:32:37.689 - 00:32:55.709

it was that statement, although I don't, I don't remember if I even read it. I think, I think Mary Kaplan was passing these ad to everyone at the time. So evidently that a lot of people had anticipated what was going to happen at this moment. Did

00:32:55.839 - 00:33:19.160

Dr Bratton say anything at this meeting? I'm sure he said something, but I could, I wouldn't do him justice to quote what it was. This was then Friday afternoon. What did you do after this meeting was over? Well, after this meeting is ended immediately after it

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was supposed to be the faculty meeting. And so I left this meeting, sort of wanting to go to the faculty meeting to see what happened. And I talked to Barry Kaplan and she said that we had been invited by Dr Broin to come to that. And,

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but that there was also going to be a student meeting in the physics amphitheater. So uh she also wanted to go to the faculty meeting to see what's going to happen there. So I said I would go to the student meeting so that I could um

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be available if they wanted to know what had happened in the student faculty committee. And so she went to the faculty meeting in Kev lecture hall and I went on and uh to the physics amphitheater and went in there just to find the whole place was

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just filled with students. It was kind of a surprise. How many would you say were there? Do you know what capacity that it was over capacity crowd? And I'd say about 300 or so, had there been any announcement of this meeting? Evidently they uh all aware

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that it was going to happen, uh, evidently that prior, just prior to it and people have been going around informing everyone that it's gonna take place and it seemed to be very unstructured. No one had anything planned. And that when I came in, they, they informed

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me that I was going to speak something like that immediately, which, uh, sort of surprised me and I, well, I guess I can do that. I'll just tell them what happened. But then, uh, there was just an open some opening remarks to get the, get the

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meeting going and, uh, sort of count and let everyone down. And meanwhile, Barry Clan had come back. And so, uh, she wanted very much to say what was going on. So she explained what happened and then I sort of answered questions. So we both spoke. But

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did she have anything to add about what had gone on the faculty meeting or had she been over there long enough to, ah, to? No, she hadn't been there very long. She just knew that they were meeting as we all knew and that there was, there

00:35:53.570 - 00:36:13.070

were a lot of faculty members who were somewhat excited about what had happened and the word had spread through the ranks of the faculty fairly quickly too. What else happened at this meeting in the physics, uh, amphitheater, ah, Barry talked and, uh, you answered questions. Well,

00:36:13.080 - 00:36:37.379

uh there was some, a variety of people spoke afterwards condemning the action of the board or I'm saying that, but it was a very bad thing for rice. And, uh, but it, it had somewhat of a rational tone. Still, people weren't real excited and they did

00:36:37.389 - 00:36:55.350

ask questions about, you know, exactly what happened. And they wanted to know if Herbert Allen had mentioned the names that we had sent, uh, evidently people knew that sent five names to the board And they wanted to know if Herbert Allen had mentioned them at all.

00:36:55.360 - 00:37:12.590

And I remember that question in particular and I responded, that Herbert Allen had mentioned, um, he had sort of run down the list and I think he mentioned at least four of those men that we had given him and gave sort of a superficial reason why,

00:37:12.600 - 00:37:31.189

why each of them was not available. But, uh, it doesn't matter. I might go back from it. I remember that one of the, one of the reasons that they had a eliminated, one of our people was that he had been offered the job at another university,

00:37:31.489 - 00:37:51.139

uh, president of another university and had turned it down and that was the only thing they were going on, which seemed very slight to me because this other university didn't bear a very close relationship to rice in any way. What other questions came from the floor

00:37:51.149 - 00:38:15.850

at this at this meeting? Well, there were questions about, uh, what our committee had been doing and uh, how often it had met and the kinds of activities that it had engaged in and, uh, just exactly what sort of how we found out from the board

00:38:15.860 - 00:38:34.310

and, you know, have they asked any of our members? And of course, there were some questions that we couldn't answer. Most of them were of that nature. Do you remember any questions about Masterson? His characters, qualifications? Well, I, I think that no one asked me about

00:38:34.320 - 00:38:58.290

that because uh what, I didn't know anything about that, that's probably why I do think that some people were asking up about him. But I can't remember that at the time. To me, that didn't seem the important issue. We were all worried about the procedure. Did

00:38:58.300 - 00:39:24.719

you sense at this time that a uh a goal was emerging at all or was this, did you interpret this for a man as just sort of getting more information? Well, um yes, I, I think uh there was people sort of felt the faculty was going

00:39:24.729 - 00:39:42.000

to do something, you know, like, I don't think they knew quite what but yeah, censor the board or do something like that. And, uh, and that there was strong feeling in support of the faculty for whatever they were doing, but of course, no one knew. And

00:39:42.010 - 00:39:57.739

so uh that meeting adjourned and uh the faculty was still in session. So the students all went back to the Chem Light trial and I sort of got out ahead of most people. And uh when I get down to the Chemla trial, I just went in

00:39:58.060 - 00:40:14.689

and nobody stopped me. So I, and uh it was very interesting to see the last part of it. OK, faculty meeting. This is where they were meeting and you can let your help. But how many were there? You recall? It was pretty full too. And I

00:40:14.699 - 00:40:34.959

think chemo trial was 300. So I'd say there were 285 or something like that. What was going on when you first came in? Well, when I first came in, Dr Kron Heis was, was Kerry was calling the meeting or, you know, he was calling the meeting,

00:40:34.969 - 00:40:52.280

he was presiding and he was talking about some parliamentary procedure, some vote that they were going to go through. And he, uh, he, uh, there was some professor in front of me, kept calling for a division of the house. And then, uh, he asked Dr Khan

00:40:52.290 - 00:41:15.969

to repeat, uh, his motion and what he had, what he had asked evidently was that they separate a statement that they, that involved both a center of the board and then something about that could be interpreted more against the man himself. And so he repeated that

00:41:15.979 - 00:41:42.489

he wanted the way it should be separated and then someone seconded it and they decided to vote on it. And then now they voted in the first part, which was the, uh, censor of the board and it one overwhelming. How were the votes counted? Were they

00:41:42.500 - 00:42:00.909

counted or was it? Well, I remember that Mr Cardell was counting on one side and I'm not sure who was counting on the other side, but they had people counting from the middle of the aisle or something to one side and then to the other counting,

00:42:00.919 - 00:42:18.020

raised hands or raised hands and then they report it to them to the gym. And so then they brought it in the second part and then, uh past also, although not so strong, I'm sure you have the figures out. And, uh I was, I was remember

00:42:18.030 - 00:42:35.479

being sort of surprised that that passed, you know, I wasn't sure what the response was going to be. And then of course, there were a great many abstentions. I think the vote that was reported in one of the thresher articles was 97 to 51 or so.

00:42:35.489 - 00:42:51.620

Does that sound about right to you? I think that was on the second part and I was sitting by the window. So, meanwhile, I was watching out outside and you see the students were all outside. Somebody would go out, there were a couple of other students

00:42:51.629 - 00:43:06.070

by this time, I'd say five or six students who had sort of wandered into this meeting. And uh every once in a while, one of them would go out and tell the students outside what was going on and it wasn't a very long period of time,

00:43:06.409 - 00:43:26.229

it was 15 minutes or so between the time when I had walked in and the time that this meeting was over, so after they voted on these two proposals, the meeting adjourned and uh then the students were, were all outside and they uh sort of made

00:43:26.239 - 00:43:45.870

a victory pat or something and clapping for the faculty members as they came out because they had been hardly been told that they had their, and it was just kind of a, everyone was sort of surprised at that, you know, anything exciting would have a riot

00:43:45.929 - 00:44:10.070

or like nothing much there. But, uh, that's what people work fairly happy that, uh, the college sounds of life, at least about something, you know, that sort of thing. And everyone was going around asking everyone else about, you know, what do you think about this? You

00:44:10.080 - 00:44:37.199

know, what do you think about this? So, that was really, what did you think about that? Well, I thought it was, um, very much justified. Uh, and I was sort of hoping that at this point people thought maybe the board would, uh, re retract their invitation

00:44:37.209 - 00:44:53.649

or something like that. That seemed a possibility at this time, you know, and a lot of people thought, well, that would be so, so easy. You know, we don't care about what they said. Why don't they just do that? You know, because I invite him and,

00:44:53.729 - 00:45:12.040

you know, we'll start over it also, I thought there was a very nice sense of community even at that point and there were faculty members talking to faculty members in other departments which doesn't, you know, isn't very obvious most of the time. So it seemed like,

00:45:13.120 - 00:45:36.149

you know, the crisis had done some good things after this meeting was over and the, uh, students, uh, clapped the faculty coming out, uh, uh, everybody milled around for a while and then what happened? Well, everybody, uh, went back to their room, I think. Did you

00:45:36.159 - 00:45:58.870

attend any meetings or anything on Friday night? Libby? I think we need that one. Yes, that would be after this four o'clock, right in the meeting or Friday night. Uh, it was later in the evening when the news came around that and they decided to have

00:45:58.879 - 00:46:25.320

college meetings in all the colleges to sort of inform a lot of students didn't really realize what had happened. And, uh, Doctor Masterson was going to come the next day and Saturday and he was supposed to have a right press conference at Cohen House at noon,

00:46:25.330 - 00:46:49.639

I think. And so the first, uh, the word came out that I thought it was gonna be some big meeting the next morning I, or something like that, you know, I guess it wasn't too clear what was gonna happen the next morning, but there was going

00:46:49.649 - 00:47:11.929

to be some kind of a demonstration of all the students, uh, in front of Cohen house at his press conference. And then they, they had a, well, let me see, I think, uh, we had a college meeting about 1230 or one o'clock, something like that at

00:47:11.939 - 00:47:32.310

night. And, uh it was just very full, you know, all the people came and, uh I sort of explained at will rise, what had the preceding things that had gone on? And then Beauford explained. Buford was the new president of Will Rice explained is this Buford

00:47:32.580 - 00:47:52.330

Alexander, right? He explained what uh was going to uh the action that the students were going to take the next day. And it, but what they were planning to do was have a meeting in the gym uh at 10 o'clock, I think, and then march in

00:47:52.340 - 00:48:13.979

a line uh down in front of Cohen House and uh to the green space in front of Lovett Hall. And the idea already at, in, at that meeting was that, uh they would just carry one sign and, uh that everyone should try to wear a coat

00:48:13.989 - 00:48:38.219

and tie. It seemed like it seemed very reasonable response, but I was a little bit uh apprehensive about what uh repercussions might happen, you know, if the students all did this and it was sort of afraid that just a few students might really turned this into

00:48:38.229 - 00:48:55.659

a, you know, a bad scene. So I, uh after the college meeting, I went back to my room and I called up, uh Mr Kell, who was, who I felt some empathy for it anyway. And uh I said he, he I knew was a friend of

00:48:55.669 - 00:49:09.969

Dr Masterson because he had, you know, introduced his name and he is, he also moves in the social circles of the board so that he was, he was in a very good position. So I called him up and I suggested that uh if he had some

00:49:10.219 - 00:49:29.760

influence that he might try to, uh suggest a breakfast meeting with Doctor Masterson, uh, instead of waiting till noon. And, uh, at this point, I thought Doctor Masterson would have some, something to say, you know, that some conciliatory gesture or something. And so I suggested that

00:49:29.770 - 00:49:50.570

they have a breakfast meeting and they could have it all cleared up before the students ever met and therefore eliminate any bad repercussions of, of whatever action might take place afterward. And so I woke him up, it wasn't very nice, but he was, seemed to happen

00:49:50.729 - 00:50:06.679

that he might take my suggestion at least and see what he could do. This was about 1230. You called him? Well, I called him about a little after one, I think. And so then I went to bed. He seemed to take it pretty seriously. Well, I,

00:50:06.689 - 00:50:24.050

I wasn't, I wasn't here. He, he did seem to take me quite seriously and, uh, he seemed interested in knowing what had happened, what, what was going on on campus. And I don't think that he was aware that the students were that upset about it. So

00:50:24.060 - 00:50:44.270

uh subsequently I found out that he, he did act on that suggestion and uh but that I, I think that he call either Mr Allen or Lee Estes. Yeah, but uh I think he talked to who he asked us, but it wasn't possible to change the

00:50:44.280 - 00:51:00.419

press conference or they didn't think it was important in any case, they didn't do it. So did Mr Cordill indicate to you at this time or any other time when Dr Masters was going to be arriving? Well, it had been announced in the paper that he

00:51:00.429 - 00:51:14.879

was going to have a press conference at, at 12 or 1230 whenever it was. Do you think he might already be in town? Yes, I thought that he might very easily have come in the night before. Have you heard since when he actually did arrive in

00:51:14.889 - 00:51:34.000

Houston? Uh, no, I, I haven't, I have no idea when he was here. So then, um, in the outcome of the college meetings, uh and you attend the one at Will Rise Will Rise was setting up the meeting the following morning at 10. Did you attend

00:51:34.010 - 00:51:52.790

any of the other college meetings or just the one at Real Rise? Well, uh let's start with Saturday morning then. Well, so Saturday morning just got up and time to put on a coat and tie and go down to the gym and see what's going on.

00:51:53.010 - 00:52:08.939

Who suggested that coat and tie business? Anyway. Do you rec, I'm not sure. It wasn't, it wasn't an original idea with our college. I think it came, I sort of thought that it came from Warren scale and the student association. But I couldn't, I couldn't be

00:52:08.949 - 00:52:28.459

sure. I thought it was a very sound suggestion. Everybody's going to react positively to that. Yes. And most people, we include tennis to advance minority, which is a form of approval. They actually did. When did you get to the meeting at, uh, at the gym? Did

00:52:28.479 - 00:52:48.300

you, did you have some activities before then? No, I didn't have any classes or anything. So I just got up in time to do that and I got there a little bit early but then it took a while to, to get going. So, and I first,

00:52:48.310 - 00:53:06.949

uh, looked for Barry Kaplan just because I wanted to talk to her about what was going on. And, uh, I sort of wandered around and looked, watched who came and who exactly what was with him. Then I took a season up in the stands to watch

00:53:06.959 - 00:53:29.629

the, what was going to happen, who was going to chair this meeting? Um, I think this meeting was chaired by Warren Sc and, uh, I don't remember seeing Dr Bratton there, but I did see Dr Salzburg. He was sitting, he sat down in the bleachers with

00:53:29.639 - 00:53:46.409

the people who spoke although he didn't speak himself. Were there very many faculty there besides these, these two gentlemen in Salzburg? Well, there, there was a group of faculty of about 10 or 15 that were all sitting in the bleachers and then there were additional faculty

00:53:47.340 - 00:54:09.310

among the students just around was the group of faculty of 10 or so, were these members of any committee like the faculty only advisory committee or they were the members of our committee who were there on our faculty student committee were Doctor Salzburg who sat there

00:54:09.320 - 00:54:24.909

and Dr Chapman was also there and I saw him come in, but he was sort of standing at the door or something, something like that. Did you get the idea? The group of 10 faculty members were there as observers or did they have an opportunity to

00:54:24.919 - 00:54:41.149

speak? Well, yes, they spoke about uh you see, Dr Ward started off by saying that uh you know, it would be horrible for Rice to have Dr Masterson as president. And that, you know, it was a step in the wrong direction and that sort of thing.

00:54:41.610 - 00:55:03.860

And then Doctor Reid got up and said, will rise be forever on the threshold of greatness. And that it was the memorable part of what he said. And then there were various other comments of and um students also spoke about uh and the fact that it

00:55:03.879 - 00:55:26.800

was an injustice and it was not properly done. And I think there was a chance for someone to speak in favor of masters and, and, uh, I can't remember if they took that opportunity or not. I remember that, uh, there were a lot of petitions going

00:55:26.810 - 00:55:41.840

around as to, uh, you know, if you censor the board of activity or if you didn't like masters and, and there was one fellow who had, even the night before had a petition going around to a Masters in all of them. And I talked to him

00:55:41.850 - 00:56:05.479

for a couple of few minutes. You remember who that was? His name is Paul Malloy Millo. One. That's correct. And uh I wasn't too impressed. II, I know Paul Law. I mean, it's, I've known him for a long time but uh I, I wasn't sure of

00:56:05.489 - 00:56:31.550

his motives in supporting Masters in that because it seemed to me to be more of a reaction against the majority than been in support of Doctor Mat. What was your response? And to uh your reaction to Doctor Ward's speech? Well, um you see, by this time

00:56:31.560 - 00:56:55.679

I had talked to uh enough faculty members myself that I had some severe apprehensions about masters and as what kind of an administrator he could be. And uh and just the fact that he would really hurt the rights campus because he would cause a lot of

00:56:57.979 - 00:57:20.050

dissatisfaction within the faculty. And so I was inclined to, to listen favorably to what Dr Warden was saying. And to, to think he was quite brave as chairman of the department to, he's chairman of the English Department. I think I could be wrong to, you know,

00:57:20.060 - 00:57:36.929

to stick his neck out because it didn't seem as if he, for instance, would be able to stay in regard to what he said. Doctor Masterson came, just not that he would bring, it was slanderous but that, you know, as a man of honor, he would

00:57:37.139 - 00:57:56.129

probably have to let you know, what was your reaction to Dr Reid's speech? Did he add anything to your impressions of? Well, hi, his, his comment about we race for the threshold of greatness that really stuck with me because it seemed to very symbolic of what

00:57:56.139 - 00:58:22.929

I was thinking at the time. So you mentioned being very apprehensive about what would happen to rise if, um if Masterson came here as president, uh can you give me some specific uh elaboration on it? Well, uh at this point, I felt that he was, he

00:58:22.939 - 00:58:46.500

would be looked upon by scholarly circles across the country as, as being inbred as being, you know, because he was a rice graduate and from well known Houston family. And uh having been at rice before and not a very dominant scholar that he would be look,

00:58:46.560 - 00:59:07.719

it would be looked at as if rice was tuning in on itself. And uh, yeah, I, I felt that he was sort of taking a step backward and I thought that he, he would be inclined to continue the, the regional Organization of Rice, not that it

00:59:07.729 - 00:59:28.919

was becoming more regional, but that he would continue the, the disproportionate number of Houstonians and Texans that were here that have inclined to this sort of thing. And, uh, so far as now there were a lot of murmurings about his conservatism and as regards, you know,

00:59:29.010 - 00:59:46.489

morals and that sort of thing. And that wasn't, didn't really bother me very much, but it was more of this larger aspect. The, uh, comments that you heard about is conservatism and what, uh and what, what, what did it touch? Did it, uh is this related

00:59:46.500 - 01:00:12.810

to his period at his master at hand, one of his uh supporters, Dr Cuthbertson, who's an associate, a resident associate of Will Rice mentioned that he ran handsome like a southern plantation and this seemed to be affirmed by numerous other people. And it was, wasn't exactly

01:00:12.820 - 01:00:38.030

my idea, you know, the direction that I should take. Did you have an impression of him as a disciplinarian or? Well, um, not really, uh um, and that wasn't, uh as actually a disciplinarian, wasn't, it wasn't the dominant thing to me anyway, at that point, or

01:00:38.040 - 01:00:54.840

ever again after this, uh about how long did this meeting? Let's see, we're still in the gym, uh, a 10 o'clock meeting on Saturday. But how long did this last? And then what happened? Well, it, it lasted a fairly long time. I mean, it got a

01:00:55.080 - 01:01:14.070

late start and then I'd say it lasted and very bad at times, 45 minutes to an hour or something like that. And then it, uh, and then the students decided to make their line to march up to Cohen House. And so they formed a line for

01:01:14.080 - 01:01:32.820

breasts. And, uh, oh, we had also had a vote in the gym that took a long time to maybe, maybe they had made up about, you know, did we approve or disapprove? And, uh, that was overwhelming, you know, 951 to 23 to 7 or whatever it

01:01:32.830 - 01:01:52.100

was. And, uh, so then they made their, uh, their march and, uh, it was very impressively long line. So I, you know, I hadn't sure how many students there were except by the vote totals. I sort of guessed that there were 100 or so. You didn't

01:01:52.330 - 01:02:07.090

notice very many abstentions in this vote. Almost everybody present voted, most, everybody voted, I think. How did they count the votes on this time? Was it a show of hands, was a show of hands and they had people stationed every little ways to count. So, it

01:02:07.100 - 01:02:26.379

was similar to the, and, uh, I, I remember talking to Doctor Salzburg for a few minutes after that before I was waiting for the line to draw out who prepared the sign that was carried. I understand that was quite a production. I don't know. Um, II,

01:02:26.399 - 01:02:45.159

I really don't know what it was way up there and I was back of the line, I think, uh, when I talked to Doctor Salzburg, then what, what he said was just that, uh, it was, uh, too bad because it's so, could have so easily been

01:02:45.169 - 01:03:01.959

avoided, you know, that, that sort of feeling. So, the whole mess. So when you got to, uh, uh, the Greens in front of the Levitt Hall, then what happened? Well, then it sort of broke up and I wondered what was going to happen, you know, and,

01:03:01.969 - 01:03:20.250

uh, there became little, uh, nuclei around certain professors who were might get a little more. Yeah, for Bose about why they didn't like masters and why they didn't like the way that something was done. Were you in one of these little, well, I sort of circulated

01:03:20.260 - 01:03:39.860

to see who was talking and what did you hear? Well, I can, uh, I can't recall any specifics right. Then I was just more interested to see what was going to happen to all the people, you know, now that they were there and see, you know,

01:03:39.870 - 01:04:02.159

what, what were they going to do? And I think I listened in here and there just do it but it was sort of the, the same thing as everyone had been saying and, uh, nothing shocking and then, uh, number of people left for lunch because it

01:04:02.169 - 01:04:16.169

didn't appear that anything was going to happen. And I guess they had, they'd better go eat. It must have been right at lunchtime, quarter to 12 or something. But that they should go eat then and then they'd be back in time to see what happened. And

01:04:16.179 - 01:04:37.590

then soon after that Dr Masterson emerged from the Cohen House and came up and talked to us. What was your impression when you first saw him? Well, he looked just like the picture I saw in the paper. And uh were you up very close? Uh Yeah,

01:04:37.600 - 01:04:53.050

I was fairly close and I sort of, I, I recalled at that point that President Pitzer, he had run into some difficulty at Stanford, right when he got there. And uh what he had done is go right out to talk to the students and have sort

01:04:53.060 - 01:05:18.560

of won them over. So I thought, well, you know, here it comes and that's, we'll see if he can do it. And uh president, he stood upon part of the architecture of the uh the arch over in front of Lovett Hall and uh I had a

01:05:18.570 - 01:05:41.540

bullhorn and he spoke to us and he spoke something about how the, this whole problem was a problem of communication between the parts of the university and that when he assumed the presidency, that would be his first, that he would first turn his attention toward that

01:05:41.870 - 01:06:04.550

breakdown. But then uh there were some, some quite uh people sort of crowded around him and there was some uh you know, I was sort of afraid, you know, what if people were going to yell things at him aside and most people were, were fairly quiet

01:06:04.639 - 01:06:25.560

and they asked, he was asked some, some questions, um, and about how he was selected or something and he said that it would be very terrible for the university for him to resign. And then, uh, someone yelled bullshit and that was the only upsetting thing I

01:06:25.570 - 01:06:41.179

heard. I think, what was his reaction to that? Well, he was getting very red in the face. He looked like he was angry and I don't know if he really was or if it's a natural complexion. Then uh Doctor Dakar said, asked him if he had

01:06:41.189 - 01:06:59.439

considered the fact that it might be more uh dangerous for the more detrimental to the university for him to be this president than for him to resign. And uh I, I don't even remember if he answered that. And then I remember this arch architectural professor standing

01:06:59.449 - 01:07:25.639

behind me, uh was only a young fellow who was his first year from Princeton, was yelling, resign, resign to be very loudly. And uh then I, I really can't remember what Dr Masterson said after that. It sort of uh broke down his uh and he really

01:07:25.649 - 01:07:42.209

made a very poor impression. He, it would have been much better if he hadn't come out at all. You know, he handled it rather in that plane. And so he uh got down and walked through the arch and back to Cohen House. And uh I had

01:07:42.219 - 01:07:59.070

been told earlier that at one o'clock, we were, he was supposed to meet with student leaders and Razor Hall. So I proceeded to go to Razor Hall and I noticed that he went about to come in house, but I thought that he might be coming there

01:07:59.080 - 01:08:20.449

later. So took leave of the rest of the students which were talking about what a poor person he made, you know, obviously, and uh saying that they couldn't imagine that he could be president of Rice. And uh then I met Mary Caplan at Razor Hall and

01:08:20.458 - 01:08:38.990

uh we discovered we were the only ones there. So we figured, well, it must not be the right time or something like that. So we uh we walked back toward Cohen House and Dr Salzburg and Herbert Allen were both there in front of and Doctor Masterson

01:08:39.000 - 01:08:53.319

also were all in front of Cohen House. We walked up, but Doctor Masterson had just walked away and Herbert Allen uh put his arm on my shoulder and said something about how he was so proud of how the way the right students had acted and that

01:08:53.330 - 01:09:12.700

he wanted me to tell them that and that he thought they'd acted as, as rice students should act and um with dignity and I don't know um something, something along that line which I thought was very uh nice of him to, to see that. And uh

01:09:12.709 - 01:09:29.520

then he went into Cohen House and then we talked to Doctor Salzburg Barry, uh Kaplan. And I, and he told us then for the first time, really, why, why he thought that Dr Masterson would not be able to be a president of Rice. And what he

01:09:29.529 - 01:09:49.899

said was that uh him is that basically he was, he was a weak man and that he would promise the same job to two people because he couldn't say no to one of them. And that he would put off a decision if there were a group

01:09:49.910 - 01:10:11.250

of his who were opposed to it instead of deciding one way or the other side. And that these kinds of characteristics. No, I had is what had made him so many enemies when he had been here as Dean. And so that, that, that seemed, you know,

01:10:11.259 - 01:10:31.089

finally, you know, to me, it seemed like maybe that, you know, I had some rationale for why so many people were so antagonistic toward him. So then we found at the meeting that I had thought we were going to have right then was later in the

01:10:31.100 - 01:10:54.680

afternoon, I think it was at 230. And so I went back to Caitlin and uh prepare the meeting. Meetings are getting pretty hang on. Just me that uh when Dr Meson came out to speak to the students was Mr Allen with him all this time. No,

01:10:54.689 - 01:11:07.229

he wasn't. He was any member of the board with him at this? No member of the board. I don't think, I think Lee Estes was with him. A company, but I think he was the only one with him, but I could be wrong because I wasn't

01:11:07.240 - 01:11:29.040

paying attention to that. Did, uh were there any other members of the faculty uh in this group who addressed uh questions to him that might be considered hostile? And I can remember. Um but I, yeah, I couldn't see, I couldn't even see Doctor Dick. I could

01:11:29.049 - 01:11:51.060

just recognize his accent and, and so I couldn't tell exactly who was there. Do you think that um that uh these people made themselves evident enough that Dr Masterson knew who they were so that physicians would have been in danger if he hadn't God, what they

01:11:51.069 - 01:12:05.819

resign? Or do you think that it was just, it was a situation such that the voice that just came from a crowd and he really couldn't. No, I mean, there was somebody going around with a microphone, put it in front of you. So I'm sure that

01:12:05.830 - 01:12:24.879

Masterson was aware of that. Although there wasn't, you didn't get the feeling that he was saying, you know, I see you, you know, like that. So that didn't, that didn't enter my mind at the time, you know, that he would be, you know, looking for who

01:12:24.890 - 01:12:53.319

was hostile. Did you um did it cross your mind uh at this time or did anybody suggest at this time that, uh, yeah, the Doctor Masterson might not have been informed of the, uh, reaction among the students and the faculty. Uh, yes, I was a, I

01:12:53.330 - 01:13:14.990

was very concerned as to whether he was informed about it and at one point, uh, I had even considered calling him because I thought that maybe I thought nobody else would, perhaps. But I, uh, and in fact, I even did call his home in Chattanooga. I

01:13:15.000 - 01:13:29.310

think that was Friday night, but he wasn't there and his daughter answered the phone and I said, yeah, he was, your father won't know. He's not. Well, goodbye. Thank you. And they said it was gonna be too late. He was, he would be coming soon after

01:13:29.319 - 01:13:49.810

that. So, uh, I mean, I was worried about the fact that you didn't know and, and that had, he might have been able to avoid the whole thing by not even, you know, announcing that he was president. That, that, that was partially my motivation for asking

01:13:49.819 - 01:14:04.669

Mr Kil to any because he hadn't been officially announced that he was president to the press at that point. And he could still have, it seemed to me have, you know, eased out of it or something, in retrospect, that would have been a wise thing for

01:14:04.680 - 01:14:25.819

him to have done and then, you know, seen what the situation was when, um, when he was addressing the student, uh, uh group. Do you recall whether there was anyone milling around in the crowd up in the front direction that would have been visible to him

01:14:25.830 - 01:14:44.870

who was wearing one of the welcoming doctor Masterson signs. Do you remember anything about that? Well, uh the people, I, I only saw two people would welcome back to Masters in Science the whole time and they were, weren't uh very noticeable. So I sort of doubt

01:14:44.879 - 01:14:59.009

it. He wasn't, I don't think he was looking, he was trying to adjust himself to the crowd and I doubt if he would have noticed many problems or things. Did it ever cross your mind that he might, when he first came out to speak to the

01:14:59.020 - 01:15:28.729

student group that he might have thought it was a welcoming committee, I think he was. And uh no, I mean, there's no question about that. He knew that we were a host. Ok. So what happened then at the 230 meeting? Well, so 230 meeting, we met

01:15:28.740 - 01:15:48.770

up in the history lounge in Razor Hall. Oh, it used to be the history lounge. I'm not sure that. And uh there were again, the college presidents and the uh, and uh they had the vice president, president of the ES A and Barry Kaplan and myself.

01:15:49.290 - 01:16:18.080

And then there was Dr Masterson and Dean mcenany and L and uh we tried to, we first explained to him what the situation was. Spokesman to Dr Mason. I I honestly can't remember. I think there were a number of people but Aaron and Barry Ken and

01:16:18.089 - 01:16:49.160

Jim Bar and I said something said quite a lot and I explained how in vision wise and to some extent the fact that there was a great deal of faculty dissension and I think that we, um, suggested, uh, fairly soon, quickly but, uh, couldn't it all

01:16:49.169 - 01:17:08.919

be avoided if you would just resign? And then he went through a number of reasons why it wouldn't be good for him to resign. Yeah. You remember what those reasons were? Well, 11 was that, uh, with the terrible city that the board would be enraged and

01:17:08.930 - 01:17:38.660

probably would name a person more. Uh, he was, although we hadn't actually thought of him as repressive, but that was the term he used, that was the term he used, you say, I think it was. And, uh, then he, uh, also told us about his personal,

01:17:38.669 - 01:18:02.729

well, life, you know, the fact that this was, you know, one thing that he had always wanted to do and even talked about how it would be impossible for him to go back to Chattanooga. And he told us, uh, that, uh, well, he even brought in

01:18:02.740 - 01:18:23.509

something about his daughters in their social position in Chattanooga or something like that. But, uh, you know, uh, he really is, did a very good job of playing in all our fears and, uh, you know, brought up all the different, you know, every argument that, uh,

01:18:23.930 - 01:18:55.250

I could have thought of, I think. And, uh, his, I just remembered at one point he Dean mcnaney, um, he, he had painted such a grim picture of the board that I was, uh, very mistrustful of what he was saying at. And Dean mcenany said something

01:18:55.410 - 01:19:13.509

said and gave another view of the board and they didn't sound, you know, didn't sound nearly so dark as to their state of mind. And so I remember asking a very pointed question about, about, uh the comparison between their 22 views of the board, you know,

01:19:13.520 - 01:19:34.120

and, um, why, why they were so disparate. But some, somehow I think Dean mcenany got Dr Masterson out of I answering instead. And at that point, I had, had gotten, um, you know, really a little angry with Doctor Masterson, although, you know, I'm not the type

01:19:34.129 - 01:19:50.759

that's gonna, uh, just attack or anything. But, but he was, uh, I, I really thought that he was using a variety of different arguments and he wasn't very, he wasn't getting through to me, you know, it seemed like he was putting it on. So, you know,

01:19:52.540 - 01:20:12.330

and, uh, well, getting back to this, um, two different views of the board, um, you mean you're talking, are you talking about the, uh your statement that he said the board would be enraged if he retracted and that, and that they would retaliate and having met

01:20:13.009 - 01:20:27.509

Herbert twice and, uh, you know, just my first impressions of him, you know, I, I couldn't believe that this is true, you know, that the board was this, uh, this kind of a group of men and, you know, immediately asked myself the question, well, why would

01:20:27.520 - 01:20:47.640

he tell us this? You know, I mean, you can't even be trusted at all, you know, that sort of thing. And, uh, so that was the thing that disturbed me the most about his whole conversation. And you see, we asked for some conciliatory gesture, you know,

01:20:47.649 - 01:21:08.290

anything and he made a lot of suggestions about, well, I could do this, but now I'm just throwing this out as a possibility and then it would sound to be, you know, seem to be something reasonable and we would attempt to say, oh, that sounds, that

01:21:08.299 - 01:21:25.790

sounds good. But we, as student wages can't go out and sell something. So, so airy to the students, you know, we have to have something concrete and, uh, you know, when we try to pin him down and, and some specific conciliatory gesture, you know, there was

01:21:25.799 - 01:21:45.759

never anything there. You know, this is if we went through a variety of different things that he might, might try, he might, uh, put himself before the student faculty committee. And if they thought that, that he wasn't, couldn't be a good president, then he would resign.

01:21:45.970 - 01:22:05.589

But then, well, he didn't really want to do that. But he would go before them and maybe they could, uh, help him understand, you know, the problems that he, that he had and, uh, he could correct them and, and that, you know, it just, it was

01:22:05.600 - 01:22:29.069

a long conversation which, you know, revolved around a series of different ideas but, you know, nothing ever came of it. So, uh, we were pretty exhausted by the, lasted three hours or something. And, uh, another thing, another thing that comes to mind is something that bothered

01:22:29.080 - 01:22:48.729

me was that Lee Estes, who is the, the development officer? You know, he's our public relations man. What sort of every time Doctor Masterson would say something he would say now, but, you know, not saying what he would say. But now let me explain why, what

01:22:48.740 - 01:23:07.720

Dr Masterson said was correct and then he would proceed to, uh, you know, support him in what seemed to me a rather unseemly fashion, you know, just no matter what he said, you know, there was this a person to second it, you know, well, after three

01:23:07.729 - 01:23:27.359

hours of that, we were fairly well exhausted. We just the students, Dr Masterson laughed and said that he would meet with us perhaps later that evening. And uh so we decided to break for dinner and meet back in the third floor of all center, the development

01:23:27.370 - 01:23:44.229

office. So we all left for dinner to sort of think about what did you rehash this during dinner or Well, my roommate's parents were here and took us out to dinner, which I was very lucky. I had a nice, very relaxing and very good dinner and

01:23:44.240 - 01:24:06.220

I sort of explained to them what was going on. But my whole reaction to Dr Masterson was very unfavorable and ok, I just remember sort of thinking, you know, it would be horrible if this person became President of Rice because he just isn't, you know, it's

01:24:06.229 - 01:24:22.520

not qualified to me. And I mean, I, I'm not a judge, but if I was a judge, this is not the main you want. And you see, it was compounded with, you know, before Masterson, there had been this buoyant optimism that I said that I talked

01:24:22.529 - 01:24:44.140

about. And so it was all the more, you know, crushing to, to uh, to talk with this man and, and feel that, you know, there's nothing there like nailing jelly to the wall or something. And so I, I came back from dinner, you know, after a

01:24:44.149 - 01:25:05.680

pleasant dinner a very nice time and uh all the students just about all of them were in the uh in the room when I walked in and immediately you could just sense this, this feeling, you know, that, that we had all uh left Doctor Masterson, you

01:25:05.689 - 01:25:21.490

know, and he had sort of uh gotten us to agree with him or something, you know, and, and we came back after dinner and, you know, we were just all thinking, you know, just all saying how we had been duped, you know, that he was a

01:25:21.500 - 01:25:40.330

fraud and there was a distinct change and, you know, we had been talking about procedure always before and then after this three hours and then a break, we came back and, uh, we just couldn't deny that, that it all that we were all focusing on his

01:25:40.339 - 01:26:00.299

personality because, uh, it was so unfavorable that, you know, we couldn't see how this man could be President Price, you know, so, so it takes, you know, the whole issue takes this big turn here and, and it wasn't uh yeah, it was happening also in other

01:26:00.310 - 01:26:22.330

parts of the campus and, you know, not just our student community, but, you know, the faculty was also that the personal part was coming out, which is unfortunate. But, you know, the truth that, yeah, we had a few minutes to talk and we, we learned that

01:26:22.339 - 01:26:38.899

Doctor Masterson was there and down in another room with Dee mcenany and Lee asked us again and that he was talking to somebody and he had, he had had dinner with a board member and he was going to talk to us again. Did you know which

01:26:38.959 - 01:26:53.939

board member? It was not bad. But I think it turned out later to have been Herbert Allen. And so, you know, we talked in just a few minutes and said, you know, we realize we've been duped and we're not going to let him do it to

01:26:53.950 - 01:27:13.859

us again. This time, we're going to make sure that he tells us something concrete and, and you know, that be fooled because we're too reticent to. What was your goal at this point that changed? Well, we now we wanted something really kind of, we really hoped

01:27:13.870 - 01:27:35.529

that he would, that he would put himself before the student faculty committee. And at least, you know, let them, well, at the very least let them explain, you know why he was, it was going to be impossible for him to be president, you know, and listen

01:27:35.540 - 01:28:02.959

and have him at least pay some attention to that. Well, then he came back in and uh yes, his whole attitude had changed, you know, which we were all ready for now because of our new attitude. And he said uh something to the effect that he

01:28:02.970 - 01:28:23.009

was president of Rice and that, you know, he was not, not going to discuss that under any circumstances. And uh it turned out that that if he had any sort of affiliation with the student faculty advisory committee, it was that you wish to use them to

01:28:23.020 - 01:28:55.089

smooth his, his path and, but that he wasn't going to consider, you know, the fact of his presidency in any sense. And so uh this, this was created by our group very, very unfavorably. And uh yeah, and uh I, I can't remember exactly what happened after

01:28:55.100 - 01:29:16.569

that, but I know that, um, in spite of the fact that we didn't like what he said, and we were very scared that he was just going to leave and go back to Chattanooga and leave us in this bad situation. And so, uh, we sort of

01:29:16.580 - 01:29:33.430

did what we planned not to do and agreed that maybe that would be ok if you were to meet the student faculty committee. And then he started talking about the fact that he, he wouldn't mind meeting with them except that he already knew how the, how

01:29:33.439 - 01:29:47.640

the vote would go. See, we had not even talked about the vote. And, uh, it was funny that he would bring this into the conversation. And then, uh, he said something to the effect that he had just wondered whether it was going to be, uh, the

01:29:47.649 - 01:30:03.160

students were going to vote 23 or 32. And, and that he had decided that there was that the voting, you know, would go against him. And so there was no point in going before the committee. Well, we pointed out at this time that, uh, the three

01:30:03.169 - 01:30:21.470

student advisor on this committee had no vote. And so that it really didn't make any difference and that he shouldn't judge whether it was going to go against him by what we had said to him because we didn't even vote. That was just the faculty. And

01:30:21.479 - 01:30:43.430

then Lee asked us pointed out that we should have a vote, which I thought was odd. And, uh, but then he, uh, continued to say, well, then I, then I thought Barry Kaplan did just a brilliant thing and she, oh, sounded very friendly and said, uh,

01:30:44.339 - 01:30:57.080

but you can't just leave or something, you know, I don't know what she said was something to that effect. And why don't you just come and tell our committee about your plans for the university or something like that? You know, and, uh, suddenly seemed to be

01:30:57.089 - 01:31:16.200

very much on his side. And, uh, so he seemed to open up to this suggestion and, uh, he started telling us about his plans for the university. But, uh, it was a very, uh, well, yeah, he, he just told us that he was very much in

01:31:16.209 - 01:31:35.520

for the colleges. And then, uh, he just stood there and said the colleges, the college is very dramatically and, you know, I was a little unsure about that, you know, because I'm, I'm getting very cynical at this point. And, uh, but anyway, he seemed to react

01:31:35.529 - 01:31:53.620

very favorably to Barry's friendliness and decided that maybe he would meet with this committee after all. And, uh, so on that note, he left and then of course, we all said, you know, he's done it to us again. We, we promised we weren't going to do

01:31:53.629 - 01:32:09.709

this and here we've done it. And, uh, we felt badly, but did you get the impression that this was not a commitment to meet with the faculty advisory committee. It was only a promise, a promise was a commitment to meet with the committee, but he was

01:32:09.720 - 01:32:20.799

just going to tell them about his plans for rice. And, you know, I'm not going to subject himself to. So we were going to discuss the procedure. We weren't going to discuss the fact that he was president, you know, and we really, you know, those are

01:32:20.810 - 01:32:39.350

the things we were interested in. So, uh, then we had immediately to say, you know, depressing feeling again that, so what time was this on Saturday night that this meeting broke up? Oh, well, this must have been 12 or so. I just brought it right at

01:32:39.359 - 01:32:56.629

midnight then, huh? Right. I can, I can't be sure of anything. Well, the second meeting must have lasted quite a while then because didn't you reconvene at, at, uh, after dinner time? Eight or so on? II, I really am so terrible with that. Uh, it, it

01:32:56.640 - 01:33:16.779

lasted, you know, like about two hours or so. I don't think it lasted too much money than that panda then, of course, he, he went back to Chattanooga instead of meeting with the committee like he had promised. And so the next morning we had another meeting,

01:33:17.750 - 01:33:37.359

the same people at this time were in Wars G's apartment. And, uh, we drafted a statement which said in effect that, um, having met with him and talked with him. Uh We felt, we felt it was our honest opinion that he was unacceptable as President of

01:33:37.370 - 01:33:54.890

Rice University. And uh it was, it, it was a very serious thing to say and uh we would almost rather have had the faculty say it and then supported them or something like that because we were aware of, of what kind of publicity we were gonna

01:33:54.899 - 01:34:11.759

get. Um, already so and uh but we did it anyway because it really seemed to be, uh the way we were feeling. What, what reaction did you get to that statement? Uh when it reached, uh how was it a press release or was it a? Yeah,

01:34:11.770 - 01:34:32.339

it was released to the press and uh the faculty, uh I, I can't remember too much reaction to it. I, except I think there was a lot of feeling that they agreed with this but, and uh but it was probably uh a proper thing to have

01:34:32.350 - 01:34:51.859

done, you know, as we were only speaking for ourselves. And what about your Sunday activities? What happened then? So on Sunday, uh you had this early meeting where you drafted the, yeah, we were still thinking, you see on Sunday that the board could go down, could

01:34:51.870 - 01:35:05.069

still do something, you know, perhaps, and I had suggested on this at the Sunday meeting that uh why didn't we just ask to meet with the board? You know, just the students that seems like the logical thing to do. But, uh, the feeling was that it

01:35:05.080 - 01:35:18.990

was too late or that they wouldn't listen or something like so on Sunday afternoon I got back to my room and I figured, well, if no one's gonna talk to the board, I'll talk to the board. So I called up Herbert Allen and I said, wow,

01:35:20.350 - 01:35:34.080

I just asked him if I could, uh, talk to him on Monday and, uh, he was very favorable to having me talk to him, you know, as I sort of expected that he would be. And so I, I didn't have a car, so he said he

01:35:34.089 - 01:35:53.600

would send out a car to pick me up and take me to his office at Cameron and Iron Works. And, yeah. So, basically, yeah, that was the important thing that they did on Sunday. And then, uh, I can't remember what else. And that sounds like quite

01:35:53.609 - 01:36:12.950

a lot. Uh, tell me about the meeting on Monday. So, on, on Monday. Yeah, after lunch, uh, uh, he said his secretary had to pick me up and, um, I went to his office and talked to him for two hours and five minutes. It's been a

01:36:12.959 - 01:36:32.569

long time. But, uh, I found him to be here. Well, the first thing I found was that, you know, he wasn't like, uh, like Dr Masterson had suggested that he would be at all. And of course, uh, knowing, knowing that sort of made me sure of

01:36:32.580 - 01:36:53.279

the fact that I, you know, if Masterson was gonna lie to him, then he's not the kind of person that I wanted to be president. And uh then Herbert Allen convinced me that, that the board's position was very difficult to maneuver in and that they had

01:36:53.290 - 01:37:10.629

in effect given the word of Rice University. And he explained how, uh, you know, it was their function to raise money and that they couldn't possibly do it if they, you know, went back on their word if they weren't trustworthy trustees. And, uh I saw his

01:37:10.640 - 01:37:31.890

point and I, I just tried to communicate to him the, uh, some of the reasons behind why the students, in fact, they were upset with Doctor Masterson and I was very candid with him, I think. And, uh I think he, I think he uh, was receptive

01:37:31.899 - 01:37:51.879

to the point that he realized that they had made a mistake in, in their choice as well as in the, and the way that they had done it. And, and that the situation was very bad. Uh, he communicated to me that he hoped that there wouldn't

01:37:51.890 - 01:38:10.709

be any, anything rash done or anything like that. And I tried to tell him that I didn't think that there would be, but that I, you know, thought there was about that, uh Doctor Masterson probably would have a very hard time being President of Rice. And

01:38:10.720 - 01:38:28.850

that, and I tried to tell him about the, the, the personal bitterness that, that was, that was entering into the picture and that everybody had their story about how they had been. Yeah, disadvantaged by Doctor Masterson and how unfair he had been or something like that.

01:38:28.859 - 01:38:42.500

Something that, you know, that this, at this point, you know, this is coming out everywhere and, uh, it didn't seem to me that, that it would be fair even to the man to, uh, let him be president at that point, you know, regardless of his qualification.

01:38:44.160 - 01:39:06.859

And uh Herbert seemed to, uh to sense that that was true. But, you know, he affirmed again that there was nothing really that the board could do that they are position was unfortunately very rigid. So he gave me his number in case, uh one of, you

01:39:06.870 - 01:39:22.149

know, anything else of import happened. And, uh and then I just came back to rice, but with the feeling that, you know, if anything was going to be done, it had to be uh doctor Masters and having to resign, you know, that's where the pressure had

01:39:22.160 - 01:39:45.709

to be. And then, right, when I got back, I met Doctor Salzburg, um he was going to catch the bus or something and he mentioned that uh pressures were being put on Doctor Masterson to resign. And uh I knew also that Mr Kell had called him

01:39:45.720 - 01:40:04.629

as a friend and said that it would, uh it would be very bad for him to try to be president because of just all the antagonism that was stirred up against him. And, uh, and Doctor Salzburg told me that Doctor Fulton had also called him and

01:40:04.640 - 01:40:29.229

that, uh, you know, if, if need be someone would call his wife, you know, even, uh, and that, you know, that was the, uh, seemed to be the attack that was being tried is to, to, and get him to resign. So then, uh, sort of waited

01:40:29.620 - 01:40:45.390

and then on Tuesday, we figured, I, I sort of figured that he would resign if he was ever going to resign that day because, and I was kind of thinking it wasn't going to happen. There was a meeting of another meeting called for five o'clock in

01:40:45.439 - 01:41:08.779

the, the heads of the departments and the student leaders again. So on my, I was just on my way to that and I just heard this, you know, shout out in the VL from outside and somebody listening to a radio and then all the fellows, you

01:41:08.790 - 01:41:28.979

know, came streaming out of their rooms and just jumping up and down in the quadrangle, you know, of the collar, everybody's really happy. And so it's obvious what had happened, you know, and uh so we went, I went to my meeting and the doctor and the,

01:41:28.990 - 01:41:49.799

and the statement was read from Dr Masterson about his resignation. Yeah. And everybody felt very happy really that, you know, r been saved and that was a bad experience. But we'd come out of it? Not too badly. You, um, uh, do you feel that the, uh,

01:41:49.810 - 01:42:07.779

Mr Cell was very close to the situation? Was he involved? And, and, uh, yes, I actually think he was very instrumental. Um, and he, he was very loyal to, uh, Doctor Masterson the entire time and, I mean, as a friend of his and, uh, never, but,

01:42:07.790 - 01:42:23.819

uh, back down from his position that, that he was indeed a very fine man and would have made a good president. But at the same time, I think that he recognized that, you know, as a friend that it would have been impossible for him to function.

01:42:24.790 - 01:42:47.569

And so I think that his opinion probably was waiting heavily by Dr Masterson. So I, I give him some credit for having aided the situation. And Doctor Fulton was, he did he participate in these um Saturday and Sunday activities also, did he very close to the

01:42:47.580 - 01:43:09.709

situation? Well, he was another good friend of Doctor Masterson. And uh I think that he, he, I think that he felt that he was not a good choice president, but he wasn't active among the dissenters. I'm very interested in your um in your initiative in uh

01:43:09.720 - 01:43:23.979

approaching uh Herbert Allen on these two occasions. Uh uh if there aren't too many students who are juniors who would call up the chairman of the board of trustees at a major university at 1230 in the morning. And uh tell them, tell them just how things

01:43:23.990 - 01:43:39.430

are. And I, uh I'm very impressed with that, uh, to what do you attribute this, uh, this, this uh courage? Well, I don't, I don't think it's really courage. I mean, I had met him once and I knew that he was a, just a reasonable person

01:43:40.109 - 01:43:58.899

and I felt sure that he would want to talk to me and I, I felt that I had something that he would uh be very useful for him to know, to understand what was going on. And, uh, it sort of, uh, it made me mad when

01:43:58.910 - 01:44:11.589

I, when I had suggested that we meet with the board that everyone was so negative and saying, well, you know, it's too late, you know, they won't talk to us and that sort of thing. And, uh, it's always been my experience that if you just, uh,

01:44:11.660 - 01:44:31.350

you know, ask for things, you know, usually you can reach some sort of an agreement. And, uh, so I, I really wasn't surprised that he wanted to talk to me and I felt that, but it was a good thing to have happen when you say, uh

01:44:31.359 - 01:44:51.270

it's been your experience that uh uh uh when you ask for things, will people respond? Uh Have you had other experiences of, of that, that you consider analogous, that have taught you something like this? Well, perhaps, um, yeah, part of my experience I taught sailing once

01:44:51.279 - 01:45:04.569

upon a time and at, at a yacht club where I was in charge of the sailing school and I had to work with the board and, uh, I had a, I always had to, uh, you know, tell them what was going on and, uh, get my

01:45:04.580 - 01:45:18.279

budget from them and everything and I always found it, you know, you know, but it wasn't that hard and it was the same sort of thing. I said, well, I, I thought of this board as analogous to that or people are people and they, they're approachable.

01:45:18.899 - 01:45:37.850

Right. Well, I, I think you've given us some very fine interview, um Greg and I'm, I'm very impressed with uh with your, your role in all of this. Um I, I've kept you here for some time now. Uh uh Is there anything else you'd like to

01:45:37.859 - 01:46:05.020

add? Uh Nothing except that, I hope that no, on this day, whenever April 30th, that uh our, our efforts to get a new president go smoothly and according to plan, I, I think that they will, that's of interest to the historian. You know, I'm still hopeful

01:46:05.029 - 01:46:23.950

and I think that uh to some measure the uh the optimism has returned to the camps and I really don't think that, uh you know, we came off too badly overall seven. You still think that um there's a possibility that a, that a man with the

01:46:23.959 - 01:46:39.270

kind of characters that you envision being the right leaders will emerge from all of this, I think that we, we manage to conclude the whole affair and still be on, you know, reasonable enough terms with the board, you know, on the board of the faculty so

01:46:39.279 - 01:46:59.950

that we can still work together. Have you had any other contact with them? Such this just talk with Mr Allen? I just saw, I saw Herbert Allen once coming out of a board meeting and he greeted me and said something like uh he is very jovial,

01:46:59.959 - 01:47:18.950

said that they had just had a meeting on the budget and that uh next year they were going to put the students in charge of fundraising and that would fix us. So they, so they did that affect. So we actually, our committee has drafted a letter

01:47:18.959 - 01:47:37.299

to the board trying to, to get down exactly what our relationship is and I hope that they'll respond to that. So the fact that the advisory committee is still active in operating in conversation from time to time. Well, I certainly wanna thank you Greg for taking

01:47:37.310 - 01:47:52.990

up um uh this time during exam week. Uh I realize this, this is not exactly scheduled to your advantage. I'm happy to do it. I really appreciate you coming in. The time is now 935.