00:00:03.319 - 00:00:26.590

This is Poly Moore. Today is uh September 12th, 1969 69. We're at Fonder Library. The time is 935. The um interviewee today is uh Doctor Street Fulton. Uh now set the dial to zero. Hi, Doctor Fulton. If I could just have you uh give your name

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and address and let me see if this microphone is going to be. All right, where it is. Yes. My name is Street Fulton and my office is 322 Razor Hall. I live in now live in Bel Air, Texas. But during the crisis lived on the campus

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as the master of Will Rise college. No. Well, Doctor Bolton, I just to reiterate the moment for the record. Uh I was giving you a little bit of an overview of what we're looking for in these conversations and as a uh background, could you give me

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an idea of how you reacted when you first heard that Kenneth Pitzer resigned. This news reached me through a nephew who was an indefatigable reader of the New York Times. We were in New York State at the time in our summer cottage. I had not expected

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Pitzer to resign in August and it came as a shock. I'm one of the people who admire Fitzer as an administrator and a leader of the university. I think he's the, in many ways the ablest administrator I have ever met. Uh thinking back over my past

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experience and the fact that Bill Masterson had given the pre the commencement address and a very good one, in my opinion, in June, it occurred to me at once that this man, yeah, it was obviously one who should be considered for the presidency of Rice or

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perhaps I shouldn't say should be, but he's one that would be considered. Now when I returned to the campus, a couple of weeks later, in casual never formal conversations with other members of the faculty that I'd meet at parties or, or in committees or just standing

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around. I once or twice mentioned masters name. We had been asked by a circular letter to suggest possible candidates for the replacement of Pitzer. OK. Mention Masterson's name and was invariably greeted by deadly silence or worse. This came as a real surprise to me and I'll

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try to explain that I had been with Masterson from the beginning of the college system masters. He was the first master appointed by Dr Houston and I was the second we had worked together had for years as masters, we had shared common problems, we had agreed

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and disagreed. We had depended on each other for different kinds of things because we were very different and our policies were different. But I understood and I think he came to understand that we, we, uh, each drew strength from what the other fellow did that we

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didn't. Now, this is one of the facts I think about college, the college system. Now. He and I always got along extremely well. We used to walk together down the mall there between the two colleges. Sometimes he would come on my side and sometimes I would

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go on his, uh, this would be at the end of a hard day when both of us were exhausted and we would be laughing down the whole thing because we were kidding around and grumbling at the same time, we always grumbled. Uh, I'm just saying this

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to say that we really enjoyed this. Uh, once or twice. He came over to my house in the evening just without announcing it to talk about his personal concerns when he had hard decisions to make. I was particularly burned up. He would come over and unload

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to me and I was never a close personal friend. We didn't play games together. We didn't go out to, uh, performances of anything together. We were not on those terms, but two families were very closely tied together. Now, during this time, I was also the chairman

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of the last of the department and he was the Dean of Humanities so that he was my dean throughout the whole period. We worked in harmony. I never, he sometimes wouldn't do what I wanted, which is a grievous fault in a dean, but mostly he supported

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my uh propose my uh efforts. And I always felt I had a man there who would do for me or rather do for the department, what he could and would listen to those of us involved in the department for advice. Uh And this I gather was

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not a universal experience so that I was, I was unprepared for the depth of the hostility that came to the surface when his name was actually brought, brought up and it was announced that he was chairman, was to be the next president. And now I may

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say that I did not personally submit his name as president as a possible president because I had in those informal conversations discovered that this wouldn't do. This is a fact. So I never put his name in. I put in the name. I don't remember now whether

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I submitted any name, but at most I submitted one and it was not his, I might have done so had I thought it was likely to, to be a successful appointment, but I thought it wouldn't be and it would be disastrous. Now, this was back in

00:07:05.529 - 00:07:25.269

September, early September 1968. And so I let it go at that, I had no further involvement in any of this. I was on no committees concerned with the appointment of the president and so on. Doctor Bilton. How did you account for the, uh, in your own

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mind? How did you account for, uh, this response to, uh, your mentioning his name? Well, he's very, for it by the fact that they didn't like him, they didn't trust him. Fundamental truth is they didn't trust him. Now, I, I must say that I, I am

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not, I'm not a persistent gossip. I don't sit around and talk about what, how other people are doing their jobs. I find I make enough of my own mistakes without worrying about other people's. But this is a fact and I simply don't know what the real

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complaints were. I've never talked this over with anybody, but I do not. I, I have to admit that this thing was widespread and it was deep before his name was ever seriously mentioned so that it was not a new development in that sense. Now, I'll give

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you an illustration of the kind of thing that I think may that may, this may illustrate some part of it. And this is a thing that always tickled Bill. And me later, I was pointed by him to uh an ad hoc committee sub-committee kind of thing

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because the English Department was searching for a new chairman. And so they had the acting chairman who was master uh uh you know, uh Will Dowen and two younger members of the Department, Alan Grove and another man no longer here. Whose name I forget. In fact,

00:09:07.460 - 00:09:30.380

he rarely appeared on the committee because he was went on leave or something. But grove, there must have been one other, but I can't remember who I was simply an innocent bystander, but I was able to attend these meetings. And uh I was present at the

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entertainment of people they were inviting down. This was during Pitts's Star period. You remember when he first came, he thought he could build up the the academic status of Rice most quickly by bringing in well known people who had already arrived and had big names and

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yet a few of those. And then we are on the map. He found this couldn't be done in effect. It was extremely difficult. Truth of the matter is I think Rice made its move five or 10 years too late. Mr Houston wanted to do it, but

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he couldn't manage it. He didn't want it that energetically. But this is the wisdom of hindsight at any rate. We had a rough time trying to find somebody to come and be chairman and a number of people were investigated. Well, apparently it's somewhere in the scuffle

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and I'm not quite sure what the terms were. I don't remember these things. Uh Masterson either appointed someone to the English Department or at least negotiated with them without going through the English Department and this committee and this upset the members of the English Department pretty

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seriously. That, that an administrative official should simply ignore them and, and make an appointment or, or dealing with important matters, affecting their policies and, and living conditions in the department. This is the thing any department member of a department will understand instantly and they were grumbling

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and going on. And so I said, well, look here, he's a reasonable man. I said, why do you gripe to me? Why don't you go over and talk to him? So I picked up the phone and called Bill and he said, come on over. So we

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went over to his office. He was in Razor Hall that it was not too long before he left, I guess, year or so. We went over to talk to him and this grove and doubting and myself, we sat there, you know, and Grove, I think or

00:12:00.640 - 00:12:21.640

do one of them I expected was Grove. It doesn't matter who started laying out the problem as they saw it in rather rather bare, bare barren terms. I may say at which point, Bill climbed the walls. He really went in orbit. Read him. The riot act

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went on for about five minutes at which we got up and walked out. Well, Bill, to me later and for years afterwards, you'd say come by long time, I told him about my remark later on, he would say come by and let's have a rational discussion.

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And this was his apology for doing what he knew. He shouldn't have done. But this is the kind of thing that he must have. He viewed his role as an administrator as one of uh having responsibility for a first rate operation and being prepared to secure

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this by a method that seemed to him reasonable, even if he didn't go through all the lower channels to get there. Now, this is one of the things that the people, some of the people in his colleges objected to. Um you can always start up students

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on both sides of any question as a rule. So I don't pay too much attention to this popular kind of thing, mass opinion, but he must have also done things as a dean that aroused the profound suspicion on the science side of the campus of his

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willingness to promote what they wanted to do. So I think they, they s faculties. I think you might say another thing that I'm pretty sure went on and here again, this is mere hearsay and not hearsay really is. It's me sniffing because no one tells me

00:13:59.309 - 00:14:23.460

these things and I don't inquire, I'm pretty sure that as Dean, he tried to run the history department another bad mistake so that he had already, he had the English Department 100% against him and he had the history department 100% against him except for two persons,

00:14:23.469 - 00:14:50.539

both of them close personal friends. And this is no basis on which to bring a president he had at least one department on the campus in the science side of it, which was 100% against him. Yeah, he was, he had numerous people who were violently opposed

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to him in all the hard sciences. Now, I don't know about engineering, but this was my impression during the crisis. All I know is that you couldn't really bring his name up seriously among any group of faculty and get support for him. All right, now that's

00:15:08.929 - 00:15:30.530

the situation as it was last fall as, as I think I under and now looking back, I can see that this initial reaction that I found existed before his name was ever brought up before we leave this period. Doctor Fullton and get into the sort of

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chronological narrative, did it ever occur to you at this time? That part of the opposition that any part of the opposition to Masterson might be based on a preference for a different on campus candidate? You mean they had somebody else in mind if any, if any

00:15:51.289 - 00:16:10.219

of the colleagues from rise, I have never heard a man's name mentioned in this connection. I've heard people, I've heard names mentioned of people that they recommended that is I know, doubt and put in one or two, maybe three names. I know who one of them

00:16:10.229 - 00:16:35.739

was. He was Chancellor Vanderbilt. He who has recently incidentally turned down Columbia University. Mhm. And uh he might very well have been a, a man, well worth considering. I don't know, but I am not aware that anybody in particular had been plugged. I don't know who's

00:16:35.750 - 00:16:58.799

responsible for plugging, but as far as I know there's none of this going on. But as I say, I didn't do much talking. And, uh, beside that, you know, for years I have run one, I have run two and three jobs and, and, uh I just

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don't have time to do it. It was like, you know, I was chairman and master periodically, part time dean and never had a reduction in my teaching load. So I was, I didn't do any good teaching, but I, you know, 11 gets along under those conditions

00:17:21.208 - 00:17:49.290

by not doing things, this is called efficiency. And since most of the things we do are just as well omitted, it's a real game. But uh I, I don't think the, the uh faculty committee was, was chosen and this was chosen by the very elaborate procedures

00:17:49.300 - 00:18:15.459

used to select members of the faculty council and other important all faculty committees in which the faculty is allowed to choose a representation this committee. Um And this before the committee was actually chosen, it was the faculty at its own meeting. Uh large uh instructed this

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committee to invite the students to appoint representatives of the students by methods that they chose themselves. And the student did this. And I know for a fact though I forget who all was involved. But I know it is a fact that a responsible student leadership uh

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took this charge seriously and they worked at it as, as honestly and honorably as any group of men could have done, they succeeded in getting a representation, which as far as I know, was, was perfectly reasonable. I think one of the people who came out best

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in this whole thing, not best, but I don't think anyone, I'm not finding fault. It's just that I, I think Warren Scarin grew up, he became, he was a man that did, did a remarkable job and he had been a man that I thought was a

00:19:16.400 - 00:19:44.010

disaster when he was elected to head the students turns out that he, he, he conducted himself with tact and discrimination and I have great respect for his performance throughout now. Then nothing happened. I mean, you heard nothing and all of a sudden there was a period

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in there when rumors were going around and faculty meeting was called and this, that and the other and then I don't know what happened exactly. I, I have no memory. I live in the future. That's a fact. Yeah. And uh I think it's because I have

00:20:05.099 - 00:20:31.510

no memory so that I have no other time to pay attention to the, um, the thing is at this point it was then rather bluntly announced. Now we, then we went through a series of meetings. Now, I think that the general impression I carried away from

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all of this was that the board committed a blunder and I don't see the board. There is some member or members of the board in charge of things who blundered and they blundered by presuming that they could dictate who the next president would be without any

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kind of investigation of whether he would be a successful operator. And I think that if they had all Mr Lovett needed to do, he was ill at the time. And this, this complicates the whole situation. I'm not trying to just place the blame on him. But

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all he had to do is pick up the phone and call the committee which they asked the faculty to appoint and ask their reaction to it and he would have gotten it. Now they say now, I suspect that he already knew what the reaction would be

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and this makes it even worse in my opinion. But then they blame, they would blame that on Bratton or certain member of the committee whose opinion they didn't want to pay any attention to. Well, um that again, I think is bad. I think it's bad administrative

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practice. I think it's the first possible. The most fundamental, most elementary blunder an administrator can make is to make an appointment, a major appointment without finding out what the reaction to this appointment would be before it's made. I believe in meeting my troubles before they arise

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and not to go blundering in and then try to find ways to pick up material. Now, let's move another way. I suspect though nobody can know this. I suspect that we have two things that aggravated each other here. Had this been a really popular appointment in

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the sense that the, the, the major faculty opinion agreed that this was a, a splendid appointment for rice for, for the real rice. I don't mean that somebody likes Bill. It's not that question, question whether they like what, what's going to happen. Uh Had it been

00:23:08.849 - 00:23:35.040

really popular? We, we could have swallowed the methods, had the methods been proper? We could have swallowed the man. But you can't do both. You can't make an unpopular appointment by methods that are, are uh nobody should have done it. Yeah. No, I noticed that this

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morning that Henry Ford has just fired Knudson and um great prank with everyone. Surprise including Newtons. Um And you have the board dealing with Andre Pratt. It looks as if there is, there's a certain myopia that, that uh one is subject to when he deals only

00:24:07.540 - 00:24:33.130

at the top level as a supervisory committee over affairs that he very imperfectly understand. Now, this is the way it strikes me. I think the basic mistakes, the mistakes made perhaps all around, but the basic mistakes were made by the board and up to this point

00:24:33.140 - 00:24:55.609

after all these meetings and all. No, I I was not much involved in it. One way or the other, except that I wanted to know what was going on. But some surprising things began to happen in the first place. That was a kind of student faculty

00:24:55.619 - 00:25:16.550

of solidarity. That was not just agit educational, I think that anybody who saw the right students at this occasion and this isn't true of exactly what went on in all the colleges. But anyone who saw the right students on this occasion had to recognize that here

00:25:16.560 - 00:25:39.170

was a very extraordinary demonstration of student understanding and ability and they were not, they were not making demands, they were not yelling, they w they themselves thought of putting on coats and ties. This is, nobody would have done this but rice, they were not like the,

00:25:39.579 - 00:26:02.060

like the, uh, dissidents who go and pound on the president's desk and make unconditional demands. They didn't threaten to occupy buildings and blow up anything. They tried to meet this on the level of a reasonable concern for the well being of Rice University. Uh, the vast

00:26:02.069 - 00:26:21.890

majority there is, of course, every type of opinion, the vast majority of the faculty did the same thing. And as you know, nothing happened for days, the normal ordinary activities at Rice were virtually suspended and that was because all of us were so much caught up

00:26:21.900 - 00:26:44.109

in this, this whole business. Well, um, the thing that I got me involved personally in it was that build a friend of mine and I thought that nobody should be treated the way he had been treated. And here again, I think the boards at fall because

00:26:44.859 - 00:27:14.239

I know for a, well, I'm reasonably sure I knew in my essentially, but over long distance bill himself told me that he had inquired, this was subsequent to a lot of other things that he had inquired before he accepted this appointment, what the campus reaction would

00:27:14.250 - 00:27:32.680

be and was assured that it would be extremely popular and that proper investigations had been made. Uh This simply isn't true. I mean, this, it may be that he wasn't told this, this is what he understood. We all hear a little what we want to hear.

00:27:36.199 - 00:27:57.810

Now, there was a long Masters meeting because we were concerned that this thing should not get out of hand. Uh There were, well, there's SDS on the campus and there's some other wild men in both faculty and student body and we saw no reason why these

00:27:57.819 - 00:28:18.699

people should be given an opportunity which they had so far, unsuccessfully attempted to find to really stir up some out outright agitation of the extreme kind. And that's what we were meeting about. Primarily we met all one afternoon. Um And I made the point that the

00:28:18.709 - 00:28:38.030

thing that concerned me was that bill should know the situation. We were afraid that if this appointment held without any, any kind of reconsideration or any yielding, anywhere that there really would be trouble that scaring was getting. Well, I didn't know this at the time but

00:28:38.040 - 00:28:59.869

they were saying the Masters were worried. They, they thought we held, we had held, we, we had acted responsibly, but so far nothing had, nothing had happened and we were in some risk of losing this gain. Now then I said that I wanted to make sure

00:28:59.880 - 00:29:24.180

that Bill Masterson himself had been told what the situation is. I know that he had talked to, he must have talked to Frank Van Der who I don't know what Frank told him, but Frank was his closest personal friend on the campus and, and I know

00:29:24.189 - 00:29:43.390

Frank was, was uh you know, Frank, he's enthusiastic and booms and has a wonderful time. And I'm a great admirer of his and, and that's, I don't mean to imply anything against him, but it could be that what Frank told me was less than, less than

00:29:43.400 - 00:29:58.920

the real situation. At least this is what I thought. I didn't know who else had talked to him. I was sure a number of people must have telephoned him, but I had not, my opinion had never been invited and I don't like to go in, in

00:29:58.930 - 00:30:18.930

times like that, but I decided that it was up to us to make sure and Bill knew what was going on. And I thought maybe, but as a, as a personal friend of his and for no other reason I had no ax to grind I should

00:30:18.939 - 00:30:44.760

perhaps go to chat Ngan talked to him. And so while we were meeting in, in the living room of Will Rice College Master House, another the campus committee that was worrying over this was meeting, the informal meeting that set itself up was meeting over in raise

00:30:44.770 - 00:31:06.729

her heart and love it in the President's conference room. When, when Dean Gordon was in administrative head of the University of assuming this role and he chaired this meeting, one of the masters called and asked if I could, you see, I didn't want to do this

00:31:06.739 - 00:31:22.589

without this group knowing what was going on. I mean, I wasn't opposing and I mean, I wasn't supporting them. I wasn't a member of it, but they asked if I could come over as a representative of the Masters to get there to tell them about this.

00:31:22.599 - 00:31:41.000

So I went over there and asked them if, if they were to prove my going paying visit to Masterson seemed desirable. And I said that we don't know where we'll get the money for the trip, but the colleges probably can find some. And anyway, the masters

00:31:41.010 - 00:32:02.300

agreed to, to pay it out of their own pocket if they had to, which is the fact and wouldn't have amounted to much he divided by seven, but just the same, we were that much personally concerned. Well, this committee at once, a approved my visit in

00:32:02.310 - 00:32:20.229

those times and Bill Gordon said not to worry about the money that he'd find some way to get it. So, so, uh, I got the support of this group but me, but I also stayed, they invited me into the meeting and I just didn't leave and

00:32:20.239 - 00:32:35.939

I talked just as if I belonged there. Well, everybody was there because he more or less asked himself to be there. And so I knew some of the things that were going on at that meeting and it was important that I did because if I was

00:32:35.949 - 00:32:54.719

going to see Bill out of all these things, this was the meeting at which they decided to circulate a questionnaire. I think this was a mistake. But at the time, in terms of, uh, of the assumptions that were being made, it seemed like a reasonable thing

00:32:54.729 - 00:33:14.180

to do whether it was done properly. I think, I think everybody involved in it regretted it before they got the thing done. But at the moment it seemed like a reasonable thing to do because we were trying to avoid. I mean, the very reason they wanted

00:33:14.189 - 00:33:35.369

me to go was the reason they wanted to give to have this, they wanted to avoid publicly embarrassing Masterson anymore than they could now help because that was already in the fire. And, um, we talked it over and it finally, it, it seemed to me proper

00:33:35.420 - 00:33:58.239

improper to go to. Certainly, I couldn't just get on a plane and go to Chattanooga and drop in on Bill. This was, you see, he'd been here on Saturday. I hadn't seen him. I hadn't telephoned him. Wow. I went to, um, and so I called Bill

00:33:58.250 - 00:34:31.069

and I suppose it was, let's see, after I got out of that meeting, I think I went to the meeting in Rice College, all colleges were holding these meetings and, uh, I didn't call Bill, I guess until the next morning. I don't know whether I called

00:34:31.079 - 00:35:00.249

him twice or once the shows with him. Oh, I know what happened. Um Cell was got in on this somehow and he and I went out, I've forgotten how it all came about but he and I went out and talked to Herbert Allen. Cameron Allen works

00:35:00.309 - 00:35:28.860

on Monday morning. And, um, I told him what I intended to do, but at any rate how, you know, I'm sorry, the sequence in here is, is hazy. I just don't remember whether, whether I talked to Bill first and then Mr Allen and then back to

00:35:28.870 - 00:35:54.080

Bill just talked to Ellen first and then Bill. At any rate. I talked to him first. I talked to Bill first. That's right because he suggested that Allen and I go, that I get Cardel and go out to see Ellen. What I told you, I, I

00:35:54.090 - 00:36:21.250

said I was infected. I was calling here to uh make sure that he understood what knew what was going on. And I said, Bill, I said, if you come, you're a dead duck. And I used those very words, I didn't mention there's no use kidding anybody

00:36:21.260 - 00:36:38.510

at a time like this. Of course, I had started off by asking him if he had had a joy of a pleasant weekend. And he said, oh, yes, he'd like to have many like this and so on. This is characteristic of our style of conversation and

00:36:38.520 - 00:36:58.260

we understood each other at that level perfectly. And, um yet I told him this as bluntly as I could and he made some very judicious comments of and said that, uh he'd given the word to the board and so on and he didn't know how to

00:36:58.270 - 00:37:23.629

proceed. Well, I just kind of repeated this and asked him and he said that the, and there were certain members of that, the only people that the best people to talk to. Well, Herbert Allen and Mrs Hobby of all people. Well, they'll take care of that.

00:37:23.929 - 00:37:50.179

None of us had access to Miss Hobby. But the way it developed, I call Cordell who was involved in this on, in Bill's favor because he had favorable dealings with him too. And uh he, he was a friend of Mr Allen who he calls Herb. I

00:37:50.189 - 00:38:12.689

never quite dared do so. Um, we went out there and talked to Mr Allen and Mr Allen told me that if, if I to call, if I call Bill again and this, he repeated several times. So it was not clear that the board had made its

00:38:12.699 - 00:38:34.149

offer, that they had accepted it, you know, he, he had accepted it and that they were not going to move. So really it put it up to Bill, they weren't willing to do anything. And this, I reported to Bill and then I guess it was Tuesday

00:38:34.159 - 00:38:51.409

morning that he resigned. I mean, that his resignation was made. I noticed when I called him back that time that he was far less interested in the conversation than the first. So the moves all the essential moves had been made in the background. He had gone

00:38:51.419 - 00:39:09.169

back from here and gone to the to an official in the state system of Tennessee. I don't know, remember now who he was but Bill had and he was on the way to Knoxville. That's what was happening when I called him the first time he was

00:39:09.179 - 00:39:28.459

going to Knoxville and he left me his motel address so I could reach him if I had to. But meanwhile, by the time I called him again, he was back, I think, or if he had not gone, he was uh he knew what was going to

00:39:28.469 - 00:39:50.439

happen. He had done the very difficult thing of calling this man up and telling him that he had recon had to reconsider this rice thing and asked him if the chancellorship was still open because he'd been offered the chancellorship of the University of Chattanooga, which you

00:39:50.449 - 00:40:12.110

see he was president of the private institution. There was a state branch being set up or active, made, made more active, made more significant. And the the private group decided they couldn't operate in competition with this duplicate. So the thing to do was to join them

00:40:12.669 - 00:40:34.989

and Bill is, was made chancellor of the combined operation instead of president of part of it. So now this is all I know about his administrative success there. All I know is that they offered him the chancellorship and that when they had a chance to do

00:40:35.000 - 00:40:53.229

it again, they did it. Now this suggests to me that he had been successful, you know, which I must say, wouldn't surprise me very much. But that's the, that's the facts as far as I know, I'm on that score, he was much less interested in the

00:40:53.239 - 00:41:13.979

conversation. Well, I think the things had worked out for him and his decision had been made and he probably had already composed a letter that was eventually published in the paper. These, these are things I don't know. I'm just guessing. Now, then I had been, you

00:41:13.989 - 00:41:37.540

know, this is an upsetting thing for in any terms, it's upsetting. But when it's happening to a good friend of yours, it's terrible. You don't want it to happen to anybody. Nobody should be put in the predicament. He was placed in. I I um I came

00:41:37.550 - 00:42:11.020

out of this with two rather firm convictions which I have reiterated a number of times. One is that if, when Bill was on the campus that Saturday, when he is here, he had found ways of converting people. If it's not kind of like trial of Socrates

00:42:11.040 - 00:42:30.840

is practically impossible, but had he found ways of changing their minds about the wisdom of this appointment, he would have come as one of the greatest was the greatest promise of any administrator in the country. This would have been taken real genius to do it. Uh

00:42:30.850 - 00:42:50.260

He didn't succeed in doing this now. Um I, I don't think this is necessarily his fault. I think he can be a man that's perfectly capable of running rice well, without having that particular finals genius, which is almost incomprehensible. But I think it might have been

00:42:50.270 - 00:43:21.409

done though, obviously, he didn't succeed in doing it. And the other thing that I think I I the view I held then and still hold is that there was a solidarity, a, a serious solidarity within the faculty within the student body and joining faculty and student

00:43:21.419 - 00:43:48.699

body of a really active concern for the for Rice University which could be exploited or really uh made productive if the board would join them that they had to, the, the members of the board had to find some way of becoming a member part of this

00:43:48.709 - 00:44:08.080

unity. And so I wrote this up and this is the thing I didn't bring you. I don't know whether I still have a copy of it. I wrote it up and sent a copy to, to Mr Allen and I sent a copy to Bill Masterson. Um

00:44:08.659 - 00:44:36.790

There was nothing particularly secret about it. It was my opinion, but I didn't have it published. I, I showed it to other masters and I sent a copy to Bill Gordon for his information. Now, by the way, in that, I said that Bill's resignation was his

00:44:37.060 - 00:44:55.719

last and in some ways fine service to rice that he had gotten them off the hook. And that I thought it was a measure of his statesmanship that he did it. No, Bill thanked me for sending him this thing and took pains to point out that

00:44:55.729 - 00:45:15.790

this was simply not true. He was rather bitter about the treatment he had from Rice and I don't know whether he was more bitter because of the faculty and because of the board. But at any rate, this was a very sharp letter and that's the last

00:45:15.800 - 00:45:43.020

communication we've had. But uh I may have played my role wrong. He probably thinks I was trying to knife him too. Um Which, but I wasn't, but uh he, he was the only man who could move and I wanted to make sure he knew the facts

00:45:43.879 - 00:46:05.459

and I'm, I think he did know the facts. And so I did what was unnecessary, but I couldn't have found this out. Had I not tried it at the time you first called him, uh, perhaps Sunday night or Monday morning, whatever it was probably, I imagine

00:46:05.469 - 00:46:24.340

it was early Monday morning. What, um, options did you have in mind that were available to him? Well, I, I was still hoping that at that time. Well, I thought, I thought he had to resign. That's what I thought. That's in fact what I was telling

00:46:24.350 - 00:46:49.260

him that he had to resign. And when, after I talked to uh Herbert Allen, it was perfectly clear that he was going to get no help from the board so that this was his decision. I mean, it had to be his decision. And what I was

00:46:49.270 - 00:47:11.340

trying to tell him was that that however miserable the position was that he had been placed in. If he came here, he would be even more miserable. He'd have a horrible time because it would polarize the, there's always the threat of polarizing administration and the rest

00:47:11.350 - 00:47:32.080

of the university, this would have done it. So the, the opposite result would have occurred from what I had hoped would come about that there would be a, a way found for people to work together. So that decisions were taken in an atmosphere of, of common

00:47:32.090 - 00:47:50.060

concern and mutual understanding instead of in one of kind of general suspicion. Because if the faculty doesn't trust the board, it seems to me perfectly clear, the board doesn't trust the faculty otherwise they wouldn't have been afraid to pick up the phone and ask their opinion

00:47:51.699 - 00:48:13.840

and the board wanted to seems at the, at following this instead of trying to do something constructive, it seems to me that the board took the position that they were exercising their legal responsibilities, which is true that, uh, and, uh, that they were charged legally with

00:48:13.850 - 00:48:33.169

doing this, that and the other, which is true, it doesn't follow that. They charge legally who was doing it stupidly stupid is too strong a word. But doing it in one method rather than another, did it ever occur to you during this, um, Sunday night, Monday

00:48:33.179 - 00:48:59.020

morning, um, uh, during these, these thoughts that the board had some kind of obligation to help Doctor Masterson get off the hook, pris in buying off his contract. They, they offered, they did this, I gather, I mean, this is what I'm told, but I, I have

00:48:59.030 - 00:49:24.639

every reason to think my information is correct though. It wasn't, wasn't, obviously, wasn't published. I mean, they were prepared to accept any kind of financial, um, responsibility that might be implied by this situation. And so Bill knew this and this didn't come as any surprise, but

00:49:24.649 - 00:49:37.070

they were not prepared to back down on what they had said and done that if they had made a contract or commitment and they're going to live up to it and this and this, I don't see how they could help. So I think it is, I

00:49:37.080 - 00:49:51.520

don't know what happened? I mean, from this point on, you know, it's all done behind the scenes at the top level. I do not know what happened. I've never had anyone attempt to tell me what happened. I've not asked anybody what happened and I don't tend

00:49:51.530 - 00:50:15.070

to, I don't care what happened, how it was done is not very important. The thing I regret, I regret two things very seriously about this. Perhaps three and the third is, is subsequent to the others. First of all, of course, I regret most that it was

00:50:15.080 - 00:50:29.679

done at all. I don't think Bill should have been put in this position. I wouldn't do it to a dog. And as I said publicly on several occasions, I said, in fact, in fact, in some part of the faculty meeting and I said it to the

00:50:29.689 - 00:50:57.489

college. And um the other thing I regret is that the opportunity was missed to re restructure the, the personal relations among different parts of the race community in such a way as to get a more significant organization than we formerly had. We had the opportunity and

00:50:57.500 - 00:51:20.350

it was muffed and whether we'll ever get it again. Of course, no one knows being um instead of attempting to do something like this, what the board did was give a big party and serve me, invite some members of the faculty to it, public relations instead

00:51:20.360 - 00:51:45.020

of straightforward dealing. Now the other takes more time and is more exhausting and more ee exasperating. But it's the way I think things are run. Um, you just don't, you know, there are no problems, my aphorisms and no problems but personnel problems and they take an

00:51:45.030 - 00:52:05.010

infinite amount of time they never solved, but in taking the time and not solving them, nothing ever happens. I mean, you do get ahead with what with the main job somehow. Now you asked in your preview, you said you'd like to know something about my judgment

00:52:05.020 - 00:52:26.429

about what was going on in the colleges. I've already indicated some of this. But as far as the Sunday night affair was in the in Will Rice College and I speak for no other. This was conducted with perfect propriety. It was run by the students. I

00:52:26.439 - 00:52:48.260

was invited to make some remarks and declined in favor of Zev Salzburg who was on, on the choosing Presidential Search Committee had been deeply involved in this. From the beginning. You tend to as much about what was going on as I ever Shall. Um He's a,

00:52:48.270 - 00:53:11.419

he was one of the original and he's still an associate of Will Rice. And he's one of the first of my, he was one of the two first resident associates. So he's been a Will Ricer from the first. Uh he expressed himself tremendous calm and tact

00:53:11.429 - 00:53:35.909

and understanding the uh some of the more wilder type trying to bring in agitating ideas and made, you know, people that they, they're really just trying to stir things up. Uh, they didn't get anywhere because the students even either laughed at them or squelched them, ignored

00:53:35.919 - 00:53:57.649

them. They handled it. And one of the by-product was that Klaus Kratz and Stein, the organist statue German. He called me up next morning. He, you see other, he wasn't an associate of anything but any member of the fact they were told that if they wanted

00:53:57.659 - 00:54:11.760

to attend these meetings that to pick out a college and go, they were welcome. And he went to our college. I don't know why he chose it, but he did show up and he called me the next morning said he had never seen anything like it

00:54:11.919 - 00:54:33.580

that students could conduct themselves that way. So I gave you his opinion rather than mine. Incidentally, he's an associate of Will Rice at this time. But that came about subsequently. But the same went on in most of the colleges. Now, some of them had a more

00:54:33.590 - 00:54:55.310

active uh anti group in them than we did. We had, we've had tremendous and had just unbelievable college leadership for a couple of years and, and this has its effect all the way through the line. And one reason we haven't had more, but I'm convinced that

00:54:55.320 - 00:55:14.020

we've had a relative calm on this campus is that the students already running and doing a very good job of it. But it takes an enormous amount of faculty time to keep things in order. And I mean, we don't keep it in order but to, to

00:55:14.030 - 00:55:38.169

help it run smoothly and it's time well spent in my opinion. And this is the kind of thing I was hoping for the board, the board would realize that it would be time well spent to get out in the ditches with, with the faculty. Um but

00:55:38.340 - 00:55:58.340

they chose to stand on their legal prerogatives instead. And I think that this is real source of the crumble. I'd be interested in hearing more about your impressions of Mr Allen during that meeting that you had you and Mr Cahill had with him on Monday, Mr

00:55:58.350 - 00:56:22.229

Allen. I felt, you know, uh it's hard to feel sorry for Herbert Allen because he's such a big and bluff man. He's obviously a man of great strength and determination. Uh but he was, he was in a way crushed. He had been crushed at that faculty

00:56:22.239 - 00:56:47.830

meeting. Um My country is that he was carrying another man's ball with which he didn't wholly sympathize, but he had to play it with a straight face which he absolutely did. He was completely pregnant. He listened patiently to Bill and me. He asked a few questions.

00:56:49.209 - 00:57:11.919

He was certainly attentive. He tried to explain his position briefly but kept repeating that the board was not going to retract, you know, it was not going to welch on it, it was going to keep its word and OK, that's Right. I'm for it. Did you

00:57:11.929 - 00:57:29.540

get the impression that this was more an action of a man of honor or more an action of standing on legal prerogatives? No, not in this case. No, no, he, he was, he was a man who would have been right. Extremely happy to find some way

00:57:29.550 - 00:57:45.010

to get out of this situation and there wasn't any way, one of those things you're in it and there's no way out and he knew it. No. II, I must say I, my, my general, I used to blame her but Allen for everything that went on

00:57:45.020 - 00:58:06.179

on the campus, but I don't any longer. I think he, I think I came out of it with quite new feeling of understanding for the man and new, new respect for his, for his ability and intention. And uh I'm sure he does some things that I

00:58:06.189 - 00:58:28.080

deeply deplore, but he likes to cut the side of a building down to where it's not quite adequate false economy. And this I had to test but, and there again, I don't know the facts of the matter. Pure guess all I know he's been head of

00:58:28.090 - 00:58:49.899

the building committee for years, but he has given an infinite amount of his time to rice. He get, he works awfully hard for rice. And throughout this crisis, he should have been in Australia. He was, they were buying a firm out there. You know, that's recently

00:58:49.909 - 00:59:16.010

been announced that they had done so well, then he would apparently write the midst of negotiations and he just couldn't go. Oh, so he worked it out. No, I think I'm, as far as I'm concerned, Herbert Allen came out of this thing extremely well. I think

00:59:16.020 - 00:59:35.429

he, I think he acted in a very responsible way at the faculty meeting. Uh, did you have any, do any impressions stand out in your mind as to what the impression he in turn was making on other members of the faculty? Well, I know one thing

00:59:35.439 - 00:59:58.070

that he, this, this meeting absolutely crushed him because you see, he had to come and face an audience that was already hostile and it had been made hostile by the way things were handled. And I think he just didn't realize until that point what a bad

00:59:58.080 - 01:00:24.050

deal had been entered into. I don't think he really knew until then what, what kind of a thing they were up again saying because the first inkling he had now he did almost all he could do so he worked it out. No, I think I'm, as

01:00:24.060 - 01:00:42.790

far as I'm concerned, Herbert Allen came out of this thing extremely well. I think he, I think he acted in a very responsible way at the faculty meeting. Uh Did you have any, do any, any impressions stand out in your mind as to what the impression

01:00:42.800 - 01:01:03.330

he in turn was making on other members of the faculty? Well, I know one thing that he, this, this meeting absolutely crushed him because you see, he had to come and face an audience that was already hostile and it had been made hostile, by the way,

01:01:03.340 - 01:01:24.840

things were handled. And I think he just didn't realize until that point what a bad deal had been entered into. I don't think he really knew until then what, what kind of a thing they were up again saying there the first inkling he had now he

01:01:24.850 - 01:01:55.250

did almost all he could do. He, he said we made a mistake and said, please accept it. Well, um, that might have been put in such a way as to get attention, but under circumstances, no, we didn't do it right. But nevertheless, you ought to do

01:01:55.260 - 01:02:19.350

what we say is the way the faculty read that. Now he was not, he was not uh abrupt or officious. He tried to be, uh, you know, reasonable and fair. He is not a good speaker. He doesn't have a gift for putting things well, so that

01:02:20.149 - 01:02:49.060

he's more inclined to be extremely blunt and almost crude when he wants to be good engineer. Yeah. But, uh, he certainly his statement, his statement was, was fair. I think he did the best he could and I'm not sure anyone would have done much better. Mhm.

01:02:50.370 - 01:03:16.449

Bratton then spoke and outlined what the committee had done the presidential search committee and I think he leaned over backwards to be scrupulously fair about the whole thing. I don't think he didn't say anything really to, that was of an incendiary nature except the recitation of

01:03:16.459 - 01:03:40.449

facts. They were incendiary enough. And then the, the faculty, there was some sort of resolution which had been rather hurriedly growing up and the faculty succeeded in separating two of these things. And I've forgotten now, I don't even remember what they were. I remember that it

01:03:40.459 - 01:03:59.100

separated two issues but II, I voted for doing it because I wanted to get Bill Maston personality off it and out of it and put it all on procedure and, and say the faculty and the defense sent you the board for his procedure and I think

01:03:59.110 - 01:04:17.120

they deserve sanction. I think they should have known better. And sometimes the only way you learn is to have somebody hit you in the head and it's true of me and everyone else. But also I didn't want Bill to be picked on personally because I don't

01:04:17.129 - 01:04:42.790

think he deserves it. I think that Bill gave too much of himself to Rice. Too much good. Did too much good for Rice to be, to be mistreated this way. I mean, his personality was not at stake really. Now, Rice is gonna, I don't know what's

01:04:42.800 - 01:05:02.280

gonna happen now. I'm sure they're gonna have an awful time getting a man to come. But so is every other institution? What is the 300 presidents being searched for? One thing? I'd like to return to, um, for a few moments, uh, was something you said earlier

01:05:02.290 - 01:05:19.860

about the uh, referendum referendum that was taken on Monday. You said that, um, you thought in some ways this might have been a mistake. I, I'd be interested in hearing more about, uh, your attitude on that. I think I'm, I'm not, I don't, here again. You

01:05:19.870 - 01:05:52.169

see you're dealing with mentally fallible memory. This committee was meeting when I entered in uninvited so to speak and put my foot in the door. Um I think what they were worried about was probably that the facts be kept straight on the campus about some of

01:05:52.179 - 01:06:21.469

these things. The Post and I don't read the Chronicle though. The Chronicle, I think was probably fairer than the Post throughout this. The post published. Yeah. Things that suggested that all of this agit was due to the agitation of hardened dissidents of some very suspicious sort

01:06:22.550 - 01:06:45.820

that this is part of the general universal unrest of, of uh young people who want to revolt and overthrow everything. Now, this was a brazen misrepresentation of facts. They must have known or could have known, had they asked their own reporters and I suspect that these

01:06:45.830 - 01:07:02.800

people may have gone worried because they wanted to get the facts straight and they didn't want Bill Madison to come here under being having been told that there were a handful of people that he had made enemies of. This is what he was told that some

01:07:02.810 - 01:07:22.790

people would object but he had some enemies on the campus. Well, he did, as I say, I'm not sure the enemies were as numerous nor the, their hostilities as intense. In fact, as it became, once they handed this dish in such a high handed way, I

01:07:22.800 - 01:07:43.739

mean, the combination was absolutely deadly. No, but whatever the facts are, what we want to know is what, what we were trying to find out to get some sort of poll or some sort of evidence. Now, when you draw up on opinion polls, it's very tricky

01:07:45.050 - 01:08:01.489

and to do it hurriedly is, is a bad move. But any rate we had to do. And they, this is what the committee decided to attend. And so they held the poll. It was not well run and they had to change the questions on it even

01:08:01.500 - 01:08:30.290

after it was put out for some reason because they were not formulated properly. And, um, it turned out to be a kind of way of emphasizing the, the personal side of this whole question. Also, it was practically obvious that since the questions asked could have been

01:08:30.299 - 01:08:48.699

answered yes or no for the same reasons or might have been answered yes. For a variety of conflicting reasons, nobody knew what it really meant one way or the other when you got through. Now it was a lead pipe since the way it was done. That

01:08:49.500 - 01:09:08.060

that's another thing we realized. Subsequently that the thing was going to come out anti Masterson bone overwhelming kind of thing. And uh you could have asked the same thing about a car dog and they have all been against him. You could have asked about anything you

01:09:08.069 - 01:09:23.430

please. This would have happened. So I don't think it means anything and I think all of us that had anything to do with it were convinced of this before the poll was ever taken. I mean, it was under way you couldn't stop it. But I think,

01:09:23.970 - 01:09:42.529

I think, I don't know what happened. No one ever saw those figures if they, as far as I know, except Bill Gordon. I know, I, I didn't see them. Matter of fact, he, something came up, I talked to him about him because I was worried about

01:09:42.540 - 01:10:02.359

it and he said that, oh, he told me that he called me and asked me if I was going to talk to Bill again. That's what it was. That was Monday night, Monday, late seven o'clock, six o'clock, five o'clock after he had the pole. And I

01:10:02.370 - 01:10:18.759

said, I assume I know how it came out. And he said, yeah, well, I'm pretty bad. And, um, he said, if you want, I want you to know that if you're going to talk to Masterson again, you should, uh, you may need these figures. Well, I

01:10:18.770 - 01:10:38.540

said, I'm not going to talk to him. Well, he said, if you have any need for them. So I'm not, I'm not distribute, telling you, distributing them, communicating them to anyone but that he would let me see them if I thought it would be helpful. And

01:10:38.549 - 01:10:55.310

I told him I'd rather not know. And that's exactly where I am today. I don't know what they were and I don't want to know what they are. Not only, not only because even if they were valid, I don't want to know what they are. And

01:10:55.319 - 01:11:08.890

so I didn't accept it and he was relieved as far as I know, I don't know, he may have shown them to Mr Allen and Mr Loving, but I doubt that anyone's ever seen those figures as far as you know, they were not communicated to Dr

01:11:08.919 - 01:11:25.740

Masterson. Oh, no, I'm just about positive because actually Masterson, by that time, I think that had already resigned. And Bill Gordon may, when talking to me may already have known that. Well, I guess he didn't because if he had known he wouldn't have offered me the

01:11:25.750 - 01:11:51.310

figures in the first place I thought, I mean, one of the, one of the by-product of all this is that, that Bill Gordon has had a tremendous respect all over the campus of the calm and careful way in which he proceeded and, and really, I think,

01:11:51.319 - 01:12:09.770

extremely courageous way because he was certainly he had to deal every day with the board and that he was putting himself right in the line of fire on both sides. He had, he was working with the committee that was certainly going to lending itself to be

01:12:09.779 - 01:12:35.180

interpreted as a, as a one that, that the board wouldn't approve of. On the other hand, it was his very judicious and understanding consultative habits. It got us through that thing as well as we did. He is, he wasn't alone. Lord knows everybody. There, there are

01:12:35.189 - 01:12:58.209

hundreds of people working at this one way or the other. It's a remarkable period in Rice's history, but his leadership then was, was superb. And I would say I, I, I'm not the only one who came out of it with new respect for him. Not, not

01:12:58.220 - 01:13:18.220

that I'd had disrespect. It's just that the, the character of my respect was different and more complete. That'd be interesting to hear, hear more about your, your thoughts on, on uh what would constitute a valid opinion survey at this particular time. I'm not sure that I

01:13:18.229 - 01:13:36.439

completely understand when you say that I don't think there would be one if you want my thoughts on it. I don't have pay much. I think that most opinion surveys are worthless to begin with. Some of them are vicious and probably not through intention but through

01:13:36.450 - 01:13:57.250

failure to perceive what's going on. But, uh, students, you know, newspapers always running these campus polls. Well, um, if you examine them, you will see that questions are formulated in such a way that you don't know what is being asked. You don't know what kind of

01:13:57.259 - 01:14:17.700

reasons would compel a man to enter it one way or another. And so you don't really know what the answers mean if you get them and this, this can be demonstrated over and over again. My, my skepticism on this is natural, but it is certainly deepened

01:14:17.709 - 01:14:39.339

by, by talking to Doctor Juan who is no less skeptical than I am. And he's much more of an expert in this kind of thing because he's, he's aware of the subtlety and variety of human motives and purposes. And he realizes that the same form of

01:14:39.350 - 01:15:03.390

words might mean 10,000 different things. Well, when you try to condense all of this into one number, you have really concealed information instead of revealed it. But under the circumstances, uh you're bound to get a negative vote because people always vote negatively if they can, you

01:15:03.399 - 01:15:25.069

know, you can condemn something you, you're so much better than if you approve it. And uh as I recall, the two, questions were worded, something like this. I uh uh approve or disapprove of the method of selection by the board of the president. And the other

01:15:25.080 - 01:15:44.600

was under the present circumstances. And this is one of the changes that was made under the present circumstances that qualify came out of Jones colleagues have had one probably I disapprove of the board's selection. Yeah. What, what you mentioned a while ago that, that, uh, one

01:15:44.609 - 01:16:04.310

could answer these for conflicting reasons and for a variety of contradicting contradictory reasons. Uh, do I understand you to mean that the, the thinking of the board business, I think you might, you might, um, well, you might even do it there. You might think that the

01:16:04.319 - 01:16:29.370

board shouldn't make an appointment of this sort, uh, independently anyway. You might mean that they should make it independently but they should, having pretended to invite advice, should go on with their pretense. And at least you have an opportunity to listen to some advice, even though

01:16:29.379 - 01:16:46.109

they don't tend to take it or you might have a whole variety of other things. I'm not clever enough to think up, but mainly I was concerned with Masterson. What does it mean to say under the circumstances? You prove of the man will, you mean under

01:16:46.120 - 01:17:08.140

the circumstances? You mean when, when things are in a ao that, uh, you disapprove of him? Well, or, uh, I disapprove of the appointment? Well, yes, of course. Otherwise things wouldn't be out of boil and that's what you're down to. I don't think anything comes of

01:17:08.149 - 01:17:29.419

this. But if you needed what, what they wanted was some sort of way of getting a, getting some, you know, everybody talked to everybody but you never know what they're really thinking. And they wanted some way to find out whether the opposition to these things was

01:17:29.430 - 01:17:51.200

really widespread or whether this was just a group action. A bunch of people got excited or a small group who took charge and were putting their opinions in place of the opinions of the public community at large. And this is why the committee hoped that this

01:17:51.209 - 01:18:13.899

would be a way of clarifying that situation. Now, if we could have, perhaps if we had gotten results that the actual opposition was extremely limited, well, then that might really have changed the scene. But my conviction is that under the circumstances, that was a remote possibility

01:18:14.430 - 01:18:35.629

and not, and it had nothing to do with Madison's qualifications or his personality really because most of the people didn't know him. No, a host of the younger faculty members who were much concerned with this had never seen a man. Although I know one man who

01:18:35.640 - 01:18:57.160

was much, I know one thing I've been told this and I can't remember who it was. This is hearsay. One man was very much in favor of Masterson. That is he thought this was a crazy way to act all the way around. We went to see

01:18:57.169 - 01:19:14.419

Masterson to offer his help. And when he was here at Saturday morning and talked to him and by the time he came away, he was opposed to him. I know this happened this young man, you mean this is a student? No, this is a faculty member

01:19:14.430 - 01:19:34.359

and a rather responsible one. I cannot honestly now remember which one it was. But a man who would, who, who really felt it, something should be done to help Masterson because everything seemed to be, you know, the whole organization was against him. Well, somebody ought to

01:19:34.370 - 01:19:49.259

be fair enough to come up and say, well, what, what gives, can't we do something on the other side? So, he went to Masterson that morning. I don't know when or how he got the opportunity to talk to him, but he went to see him to

01:19:49.270 - 01:20:06.629

ask him what he could do to help. And before they got through talking, he didn't want to help if this is true. If this is symptomatic, he, he is not a wild man. I mean, this is a man that I can't remember who it is. That's

01:20:06.640 - 01:20:23.919

why I put it out of my mind. But um is there any possibility this would be Salzburg? No, no, no, no. Debbie tried to talk to him to fill him in on, on this and try to persuade him, which I think is honestly true that he's

01:20:24.189 - 01:20:48.250

the only one I know of him on Saturday. I haven't run into anybody who talked to him that morning except those who, you know, escorted him to the campus. And according to Ben Dessler, I know Dessler defended him, defended the board on it in this meeting.

01:20:48.259 - 01:21:08.839

He's very courageous. Jim Castaneda defended him throughout poor Mary. She was so worried because Jim was right, either had been appoint, was, was going to be the new master. I was considering it and she was afraid I was going to feel bad about it or something.

01:21:11.379 - 01:21:26.270

I, the only thing I got out of it was I had tremendous respect for the courage of a man who get up for a whole meeting like that and practically stand alone. I am for him 100% if I may disagree with what he was saying, I

01:21:26.279 - 01:21:42.859

think a man can do that one. I want around and if I can get him on my side so much, the better, I can't remember who this man was. I, I could let you know later if I remember because you might want to talk to him.

01:21:43.569 - 01:21:59.390

Well, I would like to, as I say, I haven't run into anybody who was able to reach him. I know I probably shouldn't gossip so much. I just said I wasn't a gossip but here I had gossip. Uh it might be of some interest to, to

01:21:59.399 - 01:22:21.350

talk to him and get, get on record what his reaction was. You mentioned earlier that uh if he could have uh changed some opinions uh on Saturday while he was here. Um Do you have in mind any of any key people perhaps who he uh no,

01:22:21.359 - 01:22:46.689

I it seems to me that you see, he, well, he met with the students but he didn't really meet with any members of the faculty. He didn't meet with the faculty. How do you, how do you count for that? I think you, I think that he

01:22:46.700 - 01:23:15.490

put himself in the hands of the board or of the, uh, he had some advisors, you know, they flew him down in the Herbert Islands plane and, uh, they undoubtedly set up this whole day. Yeah, the public relations man was Lee Estes and I think Mike

01:23:15.759 - 01:23:36.799

Minny went along. Now, both of these men I have great regard for. I think they're awfully good. But I think they, they too didn't particularly lead, didn't fully understand what the score was. He was worried certainly, but he set up this day in such a way

01:23:36.810 - 01:23:57.439

as to handle it in a certain manner. Um I think what I, what I have in mind and had in mind then is now coming back to me once the bill's one chance to bring this thing off was to come down here personally to talk to

01:23:57.450 - 01:24:20.040

the students and faculty and not to the board. This is one chance and if he could have come and talked to them candidly and persuaded he might have. He's a charming man, a brilliant speaker and uh really a very uh discerning one ministry academically and all

01:24:20.049 - 01:24:41.450

he knows what it's about. Bill might have succeeded in allaying the suspicions of some members of the faculty, enough change, change the atmosphere of the discussion. He, he might have succeeded in changing the atmosphere of the discussion with the students now, I didn't attend any of

01:24:41.459 - 01:24:59.979

those so called confrontation meetings and things. I know the students were disappointed in what actually happened. But what disappointed them was that Masterson would make a, would meet some of their proposals in certain ways. And then he'd go back and talk to the board and come

01:24:59.990 - 01:25:17.979

back and say, am I going to do it? Well, you don't do that. And, and this is one of the things that had everybody worried that Masterson was going to be the board's errand boy. Nobody ever said that to me, but I'm sure that's what they

01:25:17.990 - 01:25:35.220

think. And I know that Masterson throughout always thought in terms of the authority of the board. I know this is a fact that the board has this authority and that everything we do has to be done against the background of the recognition of authority and power

01:25:35.229 - 01:25:55.990

of the board. And you always have to count out to it and yield to it and give them the thing. And uh this is, this is the I've heard in use the board as a threat hundreds of times now. He didn't think of using it. He'd

01:25:56.000 - 01:26:13.459

think of it that way. He thought of simply as explaining the facts of life. They are facts. That's all they were facts, but they, but I think the campus was at that time was not in the mood to accept the administrator who was willing to start

01:26:13.470 - 01:26:31.910

to take this view of the Order of life, I think times have changed and the board didn't, you did something. And of course, I guess Pitzer had something to do with this. But, you know, as soon as, as soon as the unrest at Berkeley began way

01:26:31.919 - 01:26:58.430

back then or I ever dreamed that it was serious. It's immediately started reorganizing student and, uh, and faculty organizations on the campus. So as to forestall trouble and when last fall, a guy came in an SDS who had been gone a year, came in and held

01:26:58.439 - 01:27:16.240

a meeting, you know, he was a big shot. We got to make four demands, demand this and this and this and this, you know, and the students look blank and say, well, we already do that, do that. And so he had to go away and think

01:27:16.250 - 01:27:30.529

up some other issues to demand that were impossible to meet because he was, he didn't give a hang whether rice worked or not. The least of his concerns. What he wanted to do would be a big shot. And if his idea being a big shock was

01:27:30.540 - 01:27:49.060

to overthrow what's going on, having found that what seemed to him, I mean, what he thought would be sufficiently incendiary proposals were being calmly carried out all the time. Nobody thought anything about it. He had to go back and think up more and these poor people

01:27:49.069 - 01:28:11.229

were, were in hot water all year with, with the SDS leadership nationally and internationally because he did so little. I had the internationally because I don't believe this is as innocent a thing as it looks pretty incompetent with this. Probably on the way out. You don't

01:28:11.240 - 01:28:33.799

hear much about it. Do, uh, knowing, uh, Bill Masterson as you do, uh, if he, uh, had been able to come here as a present under conditions which you might have reason to hope for. Do you, uh, do you think he was committed to continued student

01:28:33.810 - 01:29:05.560

participation? Uh Do you think he would have uh actively pursued this policy onward or would it, let's say, let's say this, I don't really know. But, but during his tenure as Master of Hanson, there were two or three occasions when the handsome uh cabinet took made

01:29:05.569 - 01:29:27.049

decisions or took a stand on something and Masterson would call in the president and tell him that if you persist in this, I'm going to veto it. So you better go back and find someone to reconsider and there are two or three times when he did

01:29:27.060 - 01:29:57.490

this. Now, this is what they objected to some of them and this is what was played up or blown up to represent this. They do um to, to agitate students who'd never seen Masterson, they know him from Adam and certainly he was very popular with some

01:29:57.500 - 01:30:18.240

members of his college. Very charming man, very understanding and those who are patient enough to work with him could see that after all he was not really quite as dictatorial as they thought, but he never left any doubt that he was running the show and this

01:30:18.250 - 01:30:34.020

is the way he would have looked upon it. He, he would have, he would have accepted the full responsibilities for what went on on the campus. But if he did, he was gonna tend to run it. No, I think this is true. But he also was

01:30:34.029 - 01:30:57.919

a, was an adept man in the committee. And I think that he could have and probably already knew how to manage committees much better than he did when he was dean. My guess is that had, had his name been seriously considered by, by the uh and

01:30:57.930 - 01:31:18.939

they had the presidential committee been taken in the consultation, they might have persuaded the board that already it was impossible or the board might have been able to persuade them that it was not impossible and that they should investigate it more. But at any rate, there

01:31:18.950 - 01:31:42.069

ought to have been then then was the time it seems to me when, when, if you're going to bring Masterson at all, you had to arrange for him to make his uh make his position with the committee. So I could conceive of having a meeting uh

01:31:42.080 - 01:32:01.209

somewhere you can't have a meeting with committee without talking, that's trouble. All these high negotiations have to be done quietly and, but you could get some members of the committee and you could do something to bring about a meeting that would give Madison a chance to

01:32:01.520 - 01:32:17.029

make his way against an opposition of this sort. But he was never given a chance and he was misinformed about what the facts were. At least this is my belief in the matter. I am as good as a sure, I'm as good as sure of that.

01:32:17.439 - 01:32:35.000

I know Bill perfectly and much I don't know about him, but Bill is not so dumb that he's going to stick his head in a, in a hornet's nest without inquiring whether the hornets are there. I just know he wouldn't do it. And in fact, he

01:32:35.009 - 01:32:59.879

told me he hadn't, but without his telling me, I would have believed it, I would never have never suppose that he hadn't asked, but he does have a respect for hierarchical arrangement of an order of command chain of command kind of thing. He does have a

01:33:00.169 - 01:33:23.870

kind of a natural sympathy for this way of operating and it probably did not occur to him that the, the simple minded authority the board had always exerted, had been so far eroded that this was no longer possible. I'm going farther than I ever went before.

01:33:23.879 - 01:33:41.779

This is the way you do. You get started talking, you say things you never thought before. But, uh, that these are speculations that could have happened, might have happened, might not have happened. I don't know. Yeah. Well, none of the things that uh, I have heard,

01:33:41.790 - 01:34:04.910

uh, about his administrative ability, sound like anything more than, than the things administrators sometimes have to do to get something very important done. Uh, well, I've heard, you know, I agree. I look, I, I've been administrative enough. I did some, um, I did some very disagreeable

01:34:04.919 - 01:34:24.189

things as chairman of the philosophy department. I was chairman of philosophy, psychology and education for several years inheriting it from so off. And that was the days when there was one man in psychology and two in education, you see, and three in philosophy. Well, this wasn't

01:34:24.200 - 01:34:44.479

much of a deal. But uh as soon as things began to hot up, I started trying to get out from under this and I first got separated from psychology and then from education. And uh as I told Pitzer once that I'd been a kind of a

01:34:44.490 - 01:35:03.439

dean JG, but the way I had solved my problems was by getting rid of people. There was some, there was a, there was one man in education, for example, who was so incompetent, he should never have been allowed on the campus. And he stayed around for

01:35:03.450 - 01:35:20.770

years. He was brought in at the end of the war and great emergency when that man, he quit to go somewhere else and they had to get someone in 15 minutes. So they brought him here and then uh dean uh Risha and Sano never bothered to

01:35:20.779 - 01:35:46.040

fire him. And that was a mistake. But then I came along, it was perfectly apparent. This man had to go and every, all the legal things were on his side had he chosen to quarrel about it. But uh he went elsewhere and he knew he didn't

01:35:46.049 - 01:36:02.830

belong in rice and admitted it. So then he said I should never been here. That's a funny thing. You know, he was the kind of man he was so you feel sorry you hate to do this to anybody. But actually he was, he was nothing here

01:36:02.839 - 01:36:31.459

and he was going nowhere and his classes were ludicrous. Um, and um, oh, I, I got rid of several people in a disagreeable way, but you do disagreeable things you have to, otherwise you're not doing your job. Bill was accused of toadyism and he is accused

01:36:31.470 - 01:36:57.200

of having his little, little group of favorites and ruling by, by, through his pals. And without even knowing it, I suppose I must have been considered one of these pals because he and I always got along. And uh in fact, he recommended me as his successor

01:36:58.350 - 01:37:24.390

and as Dean Pitzer had better sense than to accept the recommendation I may hasten to add. But nevertheless, uh it was bills, choice, not choice but desperate decision at any rate. That's the way things worked. Now, there was something else going on there, the nature of

01:37:24.399 - 01:37:43.560

which I do not know. And there's, there's something I don't know, back up a lot of this. And I don't know what it is, this incident that you described earlier uh in the English Department. Uh when uh Bill climbed the wall, as you said, uh uh

01:37:44.080 - 01:38:06.180

when uh uh at a, at, when he ventilated himself like that, did he use any kind of abusive personal language to either grow or? No, not that I'm aware of. I would never know it isn't his style. My, my recollection is that he told them that

01:38:07.319 - 01:38:23.140

and as long as he was dean and found an opportunity to improve one of his departments, he's gonna take it no matter what the department thought about it. No words to that effect that he didn't see any reason on earth why he had to, to in

01:38:23.149 - 01:38:41.430

effect. He said he didn't see why he had to ask that permission to do what he knew was right. And this may be perfectly true, but there's no way to get ahead in this world, but there's something else there. I don't, I, uh, something else was

01:38:41.439 - 01:39:12.479

going on there, not necessarily there, but some, something happened on this campus because when, when he resigned, I remember he told me one day that I can't remember how he put it. It was rather joking, but apparently he'd had a long session with pizza. Pizza Pitzer

01:39:12.490 - 01:39:36.379

had climbed the walls. Apparently, Pitzer perhaps I had a temper too. But, uh, I don't know what happened. There must have been something going on there was not just a matter of minor disagreement about this or that policy or maybe some major policy. It may have

01:39:36.390 - 01:39:55.549

been some more considerable move that Masterson had made the pit and to regard as a blunder. I don't know, I say this is all I know about it, all Bill said was that Pitzer was terribly mad and uh it doesn't sound like the sort of thing

01:39:55.560 - 01:40:21.479

to create lasting and unforgiving enmity among they will, they will. Ok. Now, set the dial to zero. This, this is a continuation of the interview with Doctor Fulton. You know, we were talking about Masterson and Pet. So, and my impression is that they remained on friendly

01:40:21.490 - 01:40:44.870

terms. These were both grown men and they didn't let let uh administrative differences which might have encouraged Masterson to resign as Dean of Humanities, interfere with, with friendly personal relation. They are always very cordial to each other and it wasn't just uh uh what's the word?

01:40:47.589 - 01:41:15.529

Horrible German word comes to mind? He, I it's not uh you know, f was not, well, let's change the subject, my mind, quit working. And um that's all I know about it. I now ask for what kind of President Rice needs. Uh They need. Well, a

01:41:15.540 - 01:41:53.729

combination of Gandhi and Genghis Khan, I don't know why any man would voluntarily accept the college presidency today just too hard to jump and many of them are quitting. But um of, of the opportunities for college presidencies. I would think Rice would be one of the

01:41:53.740 - 01:42:21.700

better ones because of the nature of the institution. And it's, uh, the character of its students and faculty. I think Rice is very superior place. On the other hand, like all institutions, it has problems and a man has to be prepared to be hacked at. But,

01:42:21.709 - 01:42:39.689

um, I don't know, I don't know what to say. I realize we're getting into your lunch time. But there are a couple more questions, I'd like to uh ask you, Doctor Fulton if you uh have just a few more minutes. You mentioned earlier, your Pitzer uh

01:42:39.700 - 01:43:04.089

star period when he thought that uh you could uh uh enhance rice's uh international prestige. But there was difficulties about that. Pitzer thought that rice had delayed too long in recognizing that times had changed academically and that the proper role of a first class institution had

01:43:04.100 - 01:43:23.540

to be done at the top level of front range research that is it had to be prepared to move ahead. It couldn't just stay static at a kind of an undergraduate, repetitive level undergraduates while we carry them farther than we used to. There are some fundamentals,

01:43:23.549 - 01:43:44.129

they always have to go over and there's a certain static character to an undergraduate institution. Whereas a graduate institution has a much more moving and dynamic front ahead of it because it's trying to keep up. Now. Pits came, he came here, came expecting to make this

01:43:44.140 - 01:44:09.560

kind of institution of rice. Now, uh, he found particularly well, he found over the whole campus, in his opinion, I think that the leadership was rather, uh, was older. Uh, they didn't have major reputations on. For the most part, the men with major reputations were getting

01:44:09.569 - 01:44:34.560

elderly, like SOO and Lear and mackillop. In, in my, in the humanities, what they needed were men with more, more, more, uh, academic and dynamism. And the way to put rice on the map suddenly was to bring in men who are already major figures. And so

01:44:34.569 - 01:44:52.049

he attempted to do this, I don't know how extensively, but he certainly attempted to do it in the humanities, in some, in some departments, he never moved wholesale. He did one job at a time. He had a kind of in, he had an orderly mind. He

01:44:52.060 - 01:45:19.069

probably had everything, a series of priorities, more or less worked out. Pitzer did not waste his time trying to strike before the iron was hot, but he knew how to take an opportunity when it arose. Now, he tried to brace history and English. And uh later

01:45:19.080 - 01:45:40.930

on, he supported efforts of philosophy department to do things, but we didn't come into the star system, not as such. Um He did try to do it particularly in English to my knowledge. I think he tried it in some other departments, but they found it extremely

01:45:40.939 - 01:45:59.120

difficult to bring men away from other institutions. Now, there are several reasons. The market was very hard. There were a lot more demand for people like this than there were people and the, the uh salaries and fringe benefits and this, that and the other, we're going

01:45:59.129 - 01:46:26.100

skyrocketing and uh the old system under which a man got himself placed and was content to identify himself with an institution had ceased to exist. Essentially all the younger people, you know, have no sense of attachment to an institution so that uh we had to run

01:46:26.109 - 01:46:46.660

like dogs just to keep from getting farther and farther behind. And that's what was going on. And I don't think he succeeded in bringing in the stars that he wanted. This is my personal judgment. On the other hand, he finally turned and I give you the

01:46:46.669 - 01:47:09.339

English Department again. He finally made Dowen chairman of the English Department and Dowen built it up to a very respectable department with a good reputation and widely known and he could have done that in the first place. So, so, uh but he had to be persuaded

01:47:09.350 - 01:47:25.549

that this kind of thing was desirable. I mean that this, this is what he wanted to do or had to do. Instead of trying to replace the acting chairman, he should have simply made him chairman and then see what happened. But at any rate, he had

01:47:25.560 - 01:47:47.290

his reasons for making his decisions. And I, I'm not aware of all of them, but that's what I meant by the star period and he quit going so much. He always, if I wanted to go, if I wanted a man in philosophy, I never went to

01:47:47.299 - 01:48:02.459

anybody because Iron Roman isn't like that, but I never went to anybody and said, look, we got so many people here, we can't teach them. What I did was to find a man who looked as if he was really good and pro and young men usually

01:48:02.470 - 01:48:22.899

but extremely promising. Yeah, the, the subst star, the asteroid type. Uh and I'd say, look, we can get this man now and we need a man who will give us strength in this area for our graduate study. And boy, he was there if we could get

01:48:22.910 - 01:48:38.720

him, I never had the slightest trouble getting support on those terms. But if I go in and say we've got two more people in this class than we want, we need an extra man to teach them why he'd look at you as if you're crazy. In

01:48:38.729 - 01:48:55.160

fact, I never did it. I knew too much. But uh the thing was that you always had feeling that he knew that what, you know what you have to have a good man and he was willing to pay the price. We had, we had Robinson, you

01:48:55.169 - 01:49:13.080

know, a logician. He made from his first teaching class. He was a full professor in three years in three more years. He had, he had a private appointment as a sort of a roving professor in general on the campus with no, no teaching chores at all.

01:49:13.339 - 01:49:31.529

This is, of course, the ultimate, this is the acme of a professor's achievement that he no longer has to be a teacher. Commentary on the times. Now in Alan Robinson's behalf, I may say that he was a brilliant and charming teacher that he loved teaching and

01:49:31.540 - 01:49:57.160

it would, wouldn't have occurred to him to go along without teaching. So he did continue to teach what he wanted to teach. Unfortunately, he went elsewhere. But, um, that's the way it's done, I guess. Well, I think I've said all I've got to say, have you

01:49:57.169 - 01:50:13.330

any other questions? Well, I have just one more question you mentioned before. Uh the letter that you got back from Bill Masterson, uh uh indicating that uh that he was really bitter about his experience here. Did you get the impression that it, his bitterness was uh

01:50:13.339 - 01:50:30.209

primarily directed against the board or was it primarily against the faculty? I think he was just mad. He got kind of mad in general at Rice. This is just a guess, you know, he didn't go into detail. This was written, this was written three or four

01:50:30.220 - 01:50:49.370

days a week after his resignation and it was still all very fresh and he obviously was not going to go into a deep detail with me, but he was trying to set me straight about this act of his was no act of nobility. He was mad.

01:50:50.109 - 01:51:06.390

This is my impression and he did it not just to be, have the record straight, I think he did it because he wanted somebody to know how mad he was. And I don't blame him. I mean, this is not finding any fault with Bill, but I

01:51:06.399 - 01:51:27.279

just say that that uh this is one point on which my estimate of the situation really was mistaken, I wrong. And uh several times for the college and at a meeting over there in the chemistry lecture hall, General Faculty, I got up and said we ought

01:51:27.290 - 01:51:51.229

to give him credit for statesmanlike act. And, uh is it possible you see it more clearly than he does? Well, I hope so. I think that, I really think so. I think a really stubborn man would have insisted on coming anyway and then he would have

01:51:51.240 - 01:52:18.609

kept things in turmoil. But Bill Bill was too intelligent for that. I've heard a lot about uh uh the relationship between the president of rise and the so called Houston community, whatever that means that there has been a breakdown and perhaps the board wanted Bill because

01:52:18.620 - 01:52:37.589

he could heal it. Do you have any thoughts along that line? I don't know enough about that to talk. And so I better keep my mouth shut for once. I'm sure this is one of the pretext for Bill. They wanted a good safe, they wanted some

01:52:37.600 - 01:53:00.250

members of the board wanted a good, safe old Houston family representative to come in and be charming with the money people because they were raising money and they were afraid of making them mad and they alienated some of them. And, uh, now I don't know what

01:53:00.259 - 01:53:20.240

Pittser had done to, to annoy them on this score, but apparently he did something to know the board. I'm told that they were glad to get rid of him, but I don't know if that's true. This is gossip. What would it have anything to do with

01:53:20.250 - 01:53:46.149

the financial situation that all private institutions find themselves in, at this particular stage in their history? It's very, I don't know. But, um, he pushed through that campaign and it meant a real revision. I think it meant a major revision in the, the board's conception of

01:53:46.160 - 01:54:03.919

their relation to Ry. Yes. In the community was in the past, if rice had needed any extra money where one of them would pick up a phone and call another one and say we need X dollars. And would you let us have it? And he would

01:54:03.930 - 01:54:27.149

say yes, but of course, X was not very large, you know, a couple of 100,000. But uh and this was the proper way to do it. This was their, their uh game. But Pitzer had him in a bind where they had to consult the public and

01:54:27.160 - 01:54:49.290

had to go to other people for money and we have a college going up named for a hideous guy in Dallas. Imagine. Imagine a Dallas man having anything to say about Rice. This is awful. Richardson College disgrace. It hurts deeply. Does it? It does indeed. So,

01:54:49.299 - 01:55:12.979

he's the first college that his name for some, somebody around here who is, who has an affiliate wealth. Jones never did anything for Rice either. But, um, it's only a girls school anyway. Oh, a DC. But that's the way it goes. I mean, the, I think

01:55:12.990 - 01:55:36.560

it, it really did change their relation somehow and certainly it makes them more vulnerable. They're not, they're not able to move freely without having the alumni crawl down their backs and say I gave $50 and so on. But this, this is what we come to. I

01:55:36.569 - 01:55:55.549

have more radical theories which no one will listen to, which is that we ought to become the graduate department, graduate school of the University of Houston. Well, that sounds like a tremendous idea because they're struggling to have some graduate work. We're struggling in a way to

01:55:55.560 - 01:56:17.049

have some students maybe think do get together and, uh, hope it doesn't happen during my lifetime here though. Well, that would create problems for a president, wouldn't it? Well, you then have to deal with the state legislature and the whole state system and if we have

01:56:17.060 - 01:56:34.100

trouble with campus politics, what think, what the politics would be like, then that would be horrible. I don't know how people stand it but they do. And one of the trouble some people have when they come to rice is discovering that they are not in New

01:56:34.109 - 01:56:50.370

York state systems. It's all, you know, it's all done according to rule. And if you want to know what you can do today, you look it up in a manual somewhere and find what people in your position are doing everywhere in the state today. Oh, it's

01:56:50.379 - 01:57:09.319

a terrible life. Well, Doctor B, and I have, uh, I really appreciate you taking the time to. Well, I, I'm shocked at how much I talk, considering what I actually know about it. I wasted your time. I'm sure that will not be true. The time is

01:57:09.330 - 01:57:10.390

now 1140.