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My name is Norie Guthrie from the Woodson Research Center and Library Rice University. I am interviewing Jack Saunders. Today is April 3rd 2017. This is part of the Houston Folk Music Archive, oral History project. So, can you tell me about your early life? My early life.

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Oh, ok. Um Navy brat. So, uh I was born in Southern California, but I lived all over the place. I lived in Alaska, Rhode Island, lived right next to the Newport Folk Festival right down the street from that when I was a teenager, lived all over

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the place all over California. Arkansas. My folks are from Arkansas. So we go back there quite a bit to Fort Smith between Duty stations. So that kind of shaped that new guy in town every year. What first drew you to music? Um The Beatles. Ok. Um,

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we were, you know, we had six kids, so we were pretty poor. We didn't really have like, uh, like I said, my parents are from Fort Smith, Arkansas and my dad was an enlisted man in the service. So we had six kids that lived on a

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enlisted man's salary. So, um, we knew I was, it was a radio sort of thing. It wasn't really, we didn't really have records at the house. So luckily the radio, I mean, when I, my first, you know, uh, exposure to music was, was all radio and

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it was pretty bland, you know, just, we would drive across the country from one duty to the station. The radio was always playing in the car and nothing ever really, you know, spoke to me and then all of a sudden The Beatles came along and I

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saw them on Ed Sullivan in 64 and, and I was 11 at the time. So, uh, wow, that was just incredible. So I thought, ok, I know what I want to do now. So that just kind of woke me up and all of a sudden I

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really started loving music and, uh, so that was pretty much the beginning of it. So then when did you take up an instrument? Uh I wanted to, but we couldn't really afford an instrument, uh, when I was a kid. And so I didn't really take one

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up until I got to. When I got to Rhode Island, we had a duty station. My dad had a duty station in Newport, Rhode Island, which is right down, like I said, down the street, we had the naval housing was like a mile from the entrance

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to Newport Folk Festival. So, um I, when we moved there, I got my first job and so I bought my first guitar which was a 12 string Framus. But, um, that was probably when I was 14. Yeah, I would have gotten one earlier if I could. So,

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did you end up attending the festival? I did, my girlfriend, uh, was actually really good friends with George. Her whole family was friends with George Wein, who was the producer of uh the Curville Folk Festival and she worked there so I got to see a couple

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of shows. Yeah. But, uh, not, not, not a lot, not a lot, but were they still kind of influential? Yeah. You know, actually I was more into the rock thing back then. And so the folk music at that point, I mean, I think folk music is

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anything, it's self taught. I don't care whether you're Chuck Berry or you're Hank Williams or, or you're the Ramones, you know, it's all folk music as far as I'm concerned. But, uh, but what we called folk music back then was kind of straight laced, you know,

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and, uh, and it was pretty narrow, you know, there was a folk scene that was going on in the sixties and I didn't really like that. Like the Letterman and, you know, Peter Paul and Mary were, I, that's where I first heard a Dylan song. But,

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you know, and I liked that song and I liked their version of it, but I wasn't a big folk, quote folk music fan, like, as folk was back then. Now, now blues. There were blues guys that would come there and I love those guys. You know,

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I was big fans of Sonny Boy Williamson and, you know, um Helen Wolf and all the Chicago guys. So, um they would come there and play, um, you know, man Slips who was from around here and uh so any of them? Yeah. Um So did you

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end up kind of taking any formal lessons or did you just teach yourself? It's all self taught. Everything I've learned about music about recording is all self taught. Mainly because it really, when I was learning how to play guitar, you unless you had like a really

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good teacher and I was always in some new place and, you know, I never had a stable environment. You, you, you know, you couldn't take a course, you know, in music or songwriting. I have a friend who, uh who has a scholarship, you know, for songwriting

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at Berkeley, you know, and I'm thinking, wow, I mean, that didn't exist, you know, those types of things. And, you know, a lot of people like David Grisman, the mandolin player would say, hey, if you wanted to see a, you know, somebody and learn somebody's style,

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you had to hitchhike, you know, to some festival in West Virginia to see the guy play and talk to him and things like that. So there really wasn't access. So basically learned myself, probably learned the wrong ways, you know, early on just, you know, no one

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was there to show me the right way. So I just kind of did it my own way and then, until I got better and then I started cleaning my act up. Ok. Um, what first brought you to Texas? Well, um, my sister lived and still does

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in Garland, Texas up north. I've lived here one time, uh, for a very short time when I was a kid. I don't even remember what year it was. But, uh, she stayed here in Texas. She got married to uh a sailor and they settled down in,

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in, in Dallas area. So I was living in Alaska at the time in this little island called Adak which is 500 miles from Siberia. It's at the end of the Alcutian Chain. It's the furthest west city in the United States. And, uh, my dad was stationed

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there and, uh, so we were really isolated. So one summer, uh I came down after high school, my junior year of high school and, and I came down to Texas to visit her just to get out of, you know, just to get to around some civilization.

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And, um, and came down and met somebody, there was a guy living next door to her who had the window open and was playing Buffalo Springfield songs and Neil Young songs and things like that. And so I just came down for that summer and all of

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a sudden, you know, started playing music because I had just written my first song in Adak, when I got there, I was like, get off the plane. What am I doing? What am I doing here? Write a song and in Adak, there was nothing to do.

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So you would have to invent your, it's sort of like you hear about these great people from, like Lubbock, all these songwriters from Lubbock. And I understand that totally because there's nothing to do there. So you have to invent your own entertainment. And, uh, and so

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that's what happened in a, so I came, I was playing a little bit and writing a little bit and I came down to Texas and met some people here that summer and, uh, there was a pretty healthy music scene around Dallas at the time, you know,

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and, and in the clubs and there was a park there called Lee Park. That was a, back then in, in the sixties and seventies, these parks were, you know, like people would gravitate, musicians would gravitate to these parks and just jam and play and, or you

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just might go listen to somebody, people would come from out of town. And so, um, uh, that's where I learned, you know, really got the bug was coming down to Texas that one summer. And, uh, there's this one street called Bowser Street that was right off

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of the park and there were four or five houses where people would just drift from house to house and they play all night. And, uh, and a lot of people, I met some pretty interesting people early on around Bowser Street. You know, people like Ray Willey

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Hubbard that were around early and, and I saw, I went, I went to, to some clubs in Dallas, like Mother Blues and, uh, and some concerts, you know, um, the Rolling Stones early stuff and, uh, Dylan with the band and Stevie Wonder and things like that

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that were happening early on in the seventies. So maybe around 70 I guess, something like it. 71. But, um, so, yeah, then I went back to, uh, Alaska and I finished up my high school and I thought I know what exactly what I wanna do and

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where I wanna go. So I came back to Dallas and I got this song about, it's called Bowser Street about coming back and all these people that I met that summer and they were from all over the place and they were just, uh, this wonderful crowd

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and I came back and I said I'm moving here and I moved back and they'd already all, they'd already taken off. So I stuck around Dallas a little bit and I moved to Austin and, uh, that was like 71 or something like that. So that was

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a scene in 71 that was like the beginning of the whole cosmic cowboy thing and, and it was the cheapest city in America to live in, I believe at the time. Can you believe that? That is interesting. Yeah. Some friends of mine that I was staying

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with at the time said, yeah, I want you to go see a friend of mine that were, uh, that I went to college with and he's just starting up his thing and it was Michael Murphy and, uh, Jerry Jeff was really big with his, you know,

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about that time and Willie was there and Waylon and they were like, just local guys, you know, just kind of doing their thing. And I mean, they, of course, they were popular. They had had some success but they were like almost the new hippies, you know,

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uh in Austin at the time and Willis Alan Ramsey folks like that were around and in Austin, the Vaughns were just, you know, Vaughns where I saw them in Dallas, you know, they had Storm and um Stevie Ray and Jimmy, you know, they, they played it when

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I got to Dallas. I played this place called The One Night all the time. And uh what was the Rome Inn, another club there? So there was a lot Freda and the Fire Dogs, uh which, you know, a lot of uh Greezy Wheels, a lot of those

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early uh Austin acts were, we're playing a lot in town so nobody was making any money, but everybody was happy. What did you pick up from being in that scene in Austin. Well, you know, um I was so, it was so early on. Um I was

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more of a fan, a music fan. Uh I loved Willie back then. Uh and I love Waylon Jennings and I loved, you know, that early Jerry Jeff stuff and and early Michael Murphy thing. I really like that and of course Willis was a legend already. Um

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So I was just a fan and I would go to clubs. Um, you know, Austin was so different then if you wanted to go out to the Soap Creek Saloon to see Freda and the Firedogs that was like, you know, traveling through the wilderness, you

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know, back then. And, uh so just as a fan, I really wasn't playing that much. Um But I was doing carpentry work and practicing a lot and trying to learn the craft and just being inspired by Austin and just the lifestyle, you know, just this kind

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of relaxed college town. It was a very different kind of relaxed sort of college town. A matter of fact, it was, it's pretty different because when I moved there, you know, I had pretty long hair and a big red beard and I was just looked like

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some mountain man. And uh there are two parts of Austin. One, the north side was the safe side for like a long haired guy. But if you went over the river to the south side, you could get your butt kicked. You know, there were rednecks over

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there that did not like any hippies. You know, we were kind of considered the hippies. So, so you stuck to your area of Austin, you know, right around the university where it was safe. You could go up to 45th street or something like that but stay

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around the university. But watch it when you want to cross the river. Saxon pub was there early on, but it was on the freeway. It isn't where it is now. It was up there on uh 35 around 34th street, right off the freeway, saw a bunch

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of shows there. I saw Shake there, New Year's Eve very early on just as when I was before I was playing a whole lot. He was with a group called the Ewing Street Times and that was with John Vandiver and Michael Mashkes and that was

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an early um popular group. They were playing there. So, um you know, uh I moved, I moved to Houston after that. Uh first I moved back to Dallas. Uh and there was a guy named Rick Gordon who was playing with Willis Alan Ramsey at the time.

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You know, I didn't know anybody that was playing with, you know, Willis was one of my heroes. He was one of everybody's heroes and Rick Gordon was playing with him. Um And plus he would come to town and he would give me a call and we'd

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get together and play guitars and he was probably the most influential guitar player for me. Uh, because he was such a consummate musician, you know, he could play, he could finger pick like Paul Simon and he could flat pick like, uh, like Doc Watson. And, um,

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and he knew a lot of songs and he was, he was a great musician, you know, better than anybody I'd ever met. So I would get together with him and play. And, uh, that was a lot of instruction and a lot of we'd work up little

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solos together. And, uh, and that was, you know, I went, uh, from that Rick and I, you know, built up a friendship, a playing friendship and I was playing around Dallas at the time and he called me up and he said, you know, I just moved

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to Houston and there is a scene going on here. There's a, there's some clubs, a lot of musicians around here and a lot of gigs. And, uh, and there's this one place that I'm playing, he was playing with a, uh, hit. There was a duo called

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the All Meat Taco Band and that was Ezra Idlet from Wheatfield who was really popular. Wheatfield was huge back then. I even saw them in Dallas. They were like, they were in another class, they were doing concerts, you know, when everybody else was doing

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clubs and, uh, you know, Connie Mims and Ezra Idlet. But anyway, Rick Gordon and Ezra Idlet had a duo called the All Meat Taco Band and they were just playing steakhouses. It wasn't, it was a side project. That's what it was. You know, you did some

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cover songs, you did some original songs. It doesn't matter. You just, and, um, they'd feed you steak prime rib and, you know, for a 21 year old guitar player, you know, to, to go eat prime rib and, and salad and, uh, and play a gig for

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$25 a night was like, wow. Ok. Yeah. All right. So that was my Rick said you come down here, Ezra is getting tired of doing this and if you want to, you know, kind of move into that duo, you could do that. So I moved down

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here and, uh, Rick Gordon and I were doing the, a little scene with a couple of, a couple of places like that and, uh, Refectory these steakhouses and we, uh, and then when we go over to Anderson Fair, that's where I first, uh, heard about Anderson

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Fair. Uh Anderson Fair had this night, Wednesdays where they would feed you spaghetti. Spaghetti wednesdays. And if you went and played, you could eat free spaghetti. So that was another thing that we stayed, you know, it kept us eating was to go play Anderson Fair.

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And there were a lot of characters hanging around then. Too. And, uh, uh, so that was a little scene but there was a, a real rich scene going on at places like, uh, Corky's and Theodores and Texas Opry House, which was like the big venue that

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was, I don't know how many people that seated six or 800 or something like that. But the clubs, Theodore's and Corky's were always packed and, uh, there were always musicians, you see the calendars, there's tons and tons of, uh, great people that came through those clubs

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and I met them then and that was, um, that was the Houston scene at my first night. I walked into that, I got into Houston, I walked into Theodore's and Michael Marcoulier playing Shakes on bass, uh, you know, a really good band, super tight band and

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real nice music scene. And I thought, well, this is good, you know, I like this and, um, seemed like there was a lot of gigs around and a lot of, a lot of clubs in the real small area in Montrose. Um, so when did you actually

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kind of, you started with some of the steakhouses, like the Refectory? And then what did you move on to playing? Uh, I wrote, I wrote songs. So, you know, um, Rick Gordon and I had, um, the All Meat Taco Band, which, you know, we started putting the

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original material in it and like in the material that I'm giving you, there's, there is a, a KPFT Don Sanders is interviewing us in 1976. You know, we had just gotten together. It's hilarious. Really. And we're doing all these flat picking songs and, and I'm, we're

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talking about songwriting and, and those are the very first songs, you know, that I'm playing in public, I think. And so, uh, um, that's how I got started doing my own thing. And then I, uh, Rick, Rick and I, um, we played together for about a

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year doing that or he would know better. A year and a half. I'm not sure exactly. And I met this art rock band. Um They were really great musicians, full band and uh they were called Taxi Dancer and I joined up with them and then I

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started doing my, all my own stuff and, and the other guy in the band, Rick Poss, who was a songwriter and great guitar player. So we had three singers and, and it was, we played Fitzgerald's, we started, you know, really picking up some gigs and playing

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in a lot of places. Can you talk about the music that you guys put out like for Taxi Dancer? Um for Taxi Dancer. Taxi Dancer was fairly short lived. We never put anything out. Uh I have in my archive stuff. I've got the recordings

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we would go into recording studio and, and uh we did some, some fairly good recordings of about half a dozen songs. Um There's a lot of live stuff. We did, we were the kind of stuff we were, I mean, it was, it might even be, you

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know, self indulgent. Uh, I see bands, we struggled, you know, back then we played Fitzgerald's all the time. We were like the house band at Fitzgerald's. We would play upstairs. Uh, we go to the library and find these old, uh, cartoons from the thirties and the

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forties and we put our own music to it and that would be our opening act. It was like this artistic kind of thing. And then we would get up there and everybody played so many different types of songs, I mean, from reggae to uh to folk

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rock to, to blues. And at that time, um you know, Elvis Costello was out um and also uh Tom Petty's first stuff. And so we were all influenced by that kind of beginnings of the new wave type of thing and just kind of melding all these

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styles. It was, it was a total misma mishmash of styles. And um and so you couldn't really label us, but we were a really, really good band. Rick Richards was the drummer and he's like, I don't know if you know about Rick, but he plays um

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all the top singer songwriter stuff. He's back then. He was a young rock drummer. Uh The other guys, all the other guys in the band were from Bryan College Station, so they had navigated here and everybody was navigating to Houston because there was work, you know,

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and it was boomtown, oil was booming. Economy was going crazy and, you know, Townes was, I met Townes early on there and Lucinda and Blaze Foley and all those characters were around in the very early days. Yeah. And, you know, I had just missed that whole

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old old quarter scene that was, uh, that Townes had done his Live at the Old Quarter. And, you know, there was a, there was a uh a pretty hardcore sort of famous folk scene that was, um Sand Mountain and things like that, uh that I had missed

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because I didn't really get here to the tail end of that. Um So what were some of your favorite venues to play uh Corky's and Theodore's and Texas Opry House were the top of that? Now, a lot of, if you look at those Corky's calendars and uh

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you'll see that there are two artists, you know, a lot of times on the Corky's calendar. So there'd be like four sets. So you do two sets and then the other artists would do two sets. So a lot of times what you would do is you

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double book, you book Theodore's and you book Corky's and then you play the first two sets here and then you run over to Theodore's and play the rest of the night. So, um those two places kept this hoppin', plus, um I played bass, uh I

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started off as a bass player. Ok, before I started playing guitar and writing songs. So, um, I would pick up bass gigs with, uh, John Vandiver and, uh, you know, Danny Everitt or somebody like that, you know, I just, uh, I could go or Shake,

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you know, once in a while we would do something together. So, um, you know, you could pick up, uh, if you were, you play guitar or bass and there was another guy named Pete Gorisch, that was doing the same thing. He played guitar or bass. And

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so when we weren't doing our own thing, we play with other people and supply the band stuff. So those were two of the really great ones that just kept us rolling. Um, and then there was the Texas Opry House, you know, that was, that was the

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premier club. That's the place the Menil owns it now. It's right there on, uh, Richmond Avenue and it's a place they keep a lot of their artwork and it's all been, uh, changed over, but that was a really fantastic club the way it was set up, it

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was set up like a rectangle, you know, like a club should be, you know, with the, at the very, at the short end, you know, there'd be the stage and so it was really set up acoustically, it was set up really great and that place had

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the top acts, the top touring acts, you know, I mean, The Police, when they came through in a station wagon, they played there. Um, but we, we split the show. I got to see a lot of great people split the opened up for like JJ Cale

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and uh, Steve Goodman. And there were just so many Brewer and Shipley had so many really good, uh, national acts would come through and then, you know, Wheatfield played there, St Elmo's Fire. They were really big at the time. We would end up playing John Vandiver

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I played with him a lot. We would open up uh John John and John was a big mentor for me. John was this great blues man that was killed in 85 I believe. And, and so um before he got his due, I mean, guys like Bret

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David Bromberg would come down and just, he adored John. So there were, there were blues guys that were, you know, in love with John's music because he was the real deal. And so, you know, John would go to hang out with Mance Lipscomb uh 'cause Mance was,

00:27:21.680 - 00:27:38.819

you know, from this area and uh and you know, pick up everything he could so did uh so did Ray Hubbard, you know, both those guys kinda from the Oak Cliff, Oak Cliff of Dallas had a lot of great musicians like The Vaughn's and, and uh Ray

00:27:38.829 - 00:27:55.589

and uh uh you know, John and folks like that, but they would kind of go worship at the altar of Mance Lipscomb and, and probably Lightnin' Hopkins. Oh, yeah Lightnin' was around. Yeah. Yeah. And god that was great. But they, but the, you know, Mance was more like the folk,

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you know, Lightnin' could go up there and play with a band and, you know, he could do both of them, you know, he, he did everything. But, um, yeah, Mance, was, he had that style that, that blues style, that Vandiver really, you know, uh perfected, you

00:28:16.140 - 00:28:31.719

know, he kind of got from Mance Lipscomb. So II I played a lot with, with Vandiver too and he was a big mentor, kind of everything I learned about. Most of what I learned about blues, country blues and stuff like that. And finger, finger style blues was

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from, from him. But we played at the Texas Opry House and uh I get a lot of shows there. So that was a great place. What was um Vandiver like as a person? Fearless I mean, I have and that's probably what got him in trouble

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and why he's not with us anymore. Nothing scared him. Uh I was, it was amazing to me and he had this thing where he would, I had many good nights with him, but very few people can get up as a solo act in front of 600

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people and have them baby talking and singing and you know, nonsense. And Vandiver was like that, he was just like nothing ever fazed him. He could get up in front of anybody and be totally in command. So he, uh, that's, you know, he's, he was

00:29:33.780 - 00:29:53.780

great at that. He was a great bandleader. And, uh, he just led by example more than anything else. The first, the funny story I have about, I probably got a few but he liked to direct. But, um, the first night that I went to the Texas

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Opry House Shake, the Ewing Street Times are playing John Vandiver is up there just rocking the house and there's a full band there behind him and my friend Rick Gordon has his 3 35 and he's playing in the band and he's trying to get me to

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where I know the guys and they know me and he says, sees his, you know, he picks up his guitar and he says, you know, play it, you know. So, I dont know man, you know. Ok. Sure. So I pick up the guitar, you know, and I'm

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walking up there and these guys don't know me, you know, I think I met Shake, but John doesn't know me. First thing John does is he walks up to me and he goes, don't play. And I thought, oh my God, if I could just shrink, if

00:30:40.469 - 00:30:57.150

I could just get off the stage, that would be so great. I can't believe Rick got me up here and then I, I'm sitting there going, oh, man, I can't play anything and he turned around to me and he goes now play. So he just liked

00:30:57.160 - 00:31:16.010

to direct. I thought he was just telling me not to play. So, but he was like that. He, uh, we play Corky's and he, he always made it this big show, like, uh, second set one night. He, he, he had the club owner put a couple

00:31:16.020 - 00:31:29.699

of tables on the stage and put a couple of drinks right there and put a couple of chairs up. We never sat, you know, but put a couple of chairs up there and I put our money under the drink and turn the P A off. So

00:31:29.709 - 00:31:45.099

we did that. We played the second set, turned the P A off and then he does this little thing where he walks up and stands up and the, the stage is a little raised and right about the, the same height as a table and there's people

00:31:45.109 - 00:32:01.849

right up in front of you and he has this thing where he says. He's gonna kick walk, cakewalk into town and he shoots his legs out like this and he doesn't look at all and it's just flying by people's heads, you know. And, uh, but he, you know, he,

00:32:01.859 - 00:32:13.000

he, I don't know if he ever really kind of, he's in his own little world but he knows exactly what he's doing and where he's going. So he, we do the set like that and at the end of the set, you know, he kind of does

00:32:13.010 - 00:32:28.739

this thing where he's walking off the stage and gets all the band or gets me to, to walk behind him and then gets the people in the audience to kind of do this little, you know, single file walk. So, uh, and he walks off to the

00:32:28.750 - 00:32:48.040

back room. So he's kind of always a showman. He was a great showman and a fantastic musician, really. So, some of his stuff is available. I'm glad his daughter is putting out his, his live recordings. Yeah, there's, uh, I watched a video with him recently and

00:32:48.050 - 00:33:02.359

it was just like, there, I think there was someone who was trying to get my attention and I was just, like, spell bound. Like, what, what, what a voice. Yeah. Yeah, a really great voice. He's got like a Ray Charles kind of voice where I don't

00:33:02.369 - 00:33:23.680

think he could sing out of tune, you know, it's just, it's great. It's good. Yeah, it's really cool. Um, so I guess sometime in the 1980's you started playing with Shake Russell? Yeah. Um, after Taxi Dancer, um, I was playing, I sort of, I played

00:33:23.689 - 00:33:36.329

with a lot of bands and my whole thing was I didn't play with a band for, like, over six months. I don't know why, you know, you want to learn everything you can from a band and then you wanna find another band and the whole new

00:33:36.339 - 00:33:55.660

wave thing was just kind of kicking up and I played with Connie, uh, Mims. She put out a, uh, an LP, a record, a vinyl record at that time. And, and of course, she was getting back into it because she got away from St. Elmo's Fire and all

00:33:55.670 - 00:34:10.870

that and she was getting back into playing. So I started playing with her a little bit too right about the time and about 82 Shake. And I knew each other. Uh, because when I first got here to town in 76 77 we would do happy hours

00:34:10.879 - 00:34:21.860

and he would always have me sit in and whenever I walked up on a club, you know, into a club, he would say, come on, get up here and we'll play. So it was always a sit in kind of situation and he was playing bass with

00:34:21.870 - 00:34:36.319

Michael Marcoulier. So what happened was, people were requesting his songs so much. I mean, he was, he was the bass player and singing a couple of his songs, but he was getting so much attention that he had to get his own band. People would ask me,

00:34:36.329 - 00:34:49.919

when are you gonna get your own band? I don't really want to get my own band. Finally, the, you know, he did and he was getting really big and he got his, he wanted to get his friend from Kansas City, which was Dana Cooper down that

00:34:49.929 - 00:35:06.878

he used to play with his kids. So he got Dana down and they, they were like stars. They were huge. I mean, some of the, I think I have one archive thing where it's like a benefit concert for John after he died, after John Vandiver

00:35:06.948 - 00:35:26.010

died at Rockefeller and, and wow, I'd forgotten, you know, how much, you know, uh attention they were getting. It was, it was crazy. Um But it was, I used to rope off the front of the stage for those two. They, they were, they were big. And

00:35:26.020 - 00:35:41.979

so, you know, we kind of, we were friends and all that, but we kind of were in different circles. They were, they were, they got an MCA records deal, which was a big label, major label. And, um, and they were playing big concerts and, and

00:35:41.989 - 00:35:58.340

really, really killing it and, you know, we were in the clubs, you know, we were doing our thing. Um But then he, and Shake and Dana broke up about 82 81 or something like that. And Shake called me and said, you know, hey, you want to

00:35:58.350 - 00:36:12.159

join the band? I was already in a band at the time and I told him, no, I said I can't, you know, uh and then that band fell apart in a couple of months and I said, yeah, you still want to do it. So this was

00:36:12.169 - 00:36:33.550

82. And uh he was doing a record at Gilley's. Gilley's was that nightclub in Pasadena that was famous for uh what was the movie with uh John Travolta, Urban Cowboy. It was huge, you know, all over the place. And Mickey Gilley owned this club out there

00:36:33.560 - 00:36:56.909

that was so popular and, and he also had a recording studio there. Uh Gilley's recording studio. So the guy Sherwood Cryer who's sort of like the, you know, this underworld character from that owned Gilley's, you know, owned a lot of Pasadena, you know, um the boss he

00:36:56.919 - 00:37:12.100

was wanting to, he was, uh at that time, he was the manager. I think it was Shake's manager. And uh we were cutting an album there and we got Craig Leon, the guy that produced The Ramones was producing our record. So my first week in the

00:37:12.110 - 00:37:29.639

band in 82 was right into the recording studio where I was playing bass and guitar Shake and I were splitting bass duties and I was playing electric guitar. And so, uh right off the bat before I even knew the songs, you know, boom, I'm in the

00:37:29.649 - 00:37:46.520

recording studio. So, and then we started doing some gigs out learning the material we played at uh the Balinese room, you know, all over, all over Texas. Uh He was really popular at that time and he was trying to reestablish himself as who he was. So

00:37:46.530 - 00:38:02.399

I joined him in 82 as the bass. And then we eventually went to me just playing bass because it made the band more stable. We had a big band Riley Osborne, I think, uh, was the keyboard player from Austin. We had drums, we had, uh, two

00:38:02.409 - 00:38:19.580

guitar players. We had a, a company, a sound company we traveled with. So it was a, a big operation and, uh, and I ended up kind of playing bass all the time just because it was easier than us switching around. So I ended up being the

00:38:19.590 - 00:38:36.459

bass player. Shake started. He was a real generous guy and uh he uh he knew that I wrote songs. So he, he wanted to incorporate those into the band. So he started singing, he would do that. It was great. He was really generous and great about

00:38:36.469 - 00:38:54.409

that because there were some really good people in his band and everybody wrote songs. So we'd take a song by everybody in the band and he'd sing it and which was really nice and it, so we started singing a couple of my songs and, and we

00:38:54.419 - 00:39:10.229

played a lot of gigs. We went through some different iterations of the Shake Russell band till about 89. Right about that time, the band split up and we had Rusty Burns from Point Blank and Buzzy Gruen from Point blank, which was this big arena rock band

00:39:10.610 - 00:39:28.610

and they were in our band. They were in the last Shake Russell band in like 88 you know, 89 we did a couple of records and um so we split up in like 89 and uh we formed a duo where I started playing more of my

00:39:28.620 - 00:39:43.439

songs and we were splitting it. It was a duo and we kind of had this Everly Brothers thing where we were singing harmonies on a lot of stuff and we would start writing co writing, you know, everything to where it was kind of half and half.

00:39:43.550 - 00:40:04.560

And this and then we, we were really popular uh from like the time we were together from like 89 to 96. And so we put out a record a year, we put out a CD a year and uh we were hard working songwriters and performers uh

00:40:04.570 - 00:40:22.070

for that whole time. And then, so we split up in 96. And then I started, I, I had been working on a solo thing for a while, so I pretty much immediately released that and just kind of did my own thing for a long time. But,

00:40:22.370 - 00:40:49.850

yeah, the Shake Russell was starting in 82 and went to about 96 altogether. So, can you talk about the music that you wrote and recorded with um Shake Russell? Um At first, um it was just my writing whatever would fit his voice when the band was

00:40:49.860 - 00:41:10.189

first formed when I first joined the Shake Russell band. So, um that's the way it started. And then it got to like in the late eighties, it got to the point where we would start writing songs together. Um I think. Well, actually we did a record

00:41:10.199 - 00:41:28.429

called Denim and Pearls. Um, that was with Buzzy Gruen and, and, and Rusty Burns, which was that arena rock band. I was telling you about that Point Blank, which was a big popular band. Uh, they joined us and, and, uh, and that was probably the first

00:41:28.439 - 00:41:43.850

song we wrote together. Uh, that was a song about, you know, a horse race, you know, in Louisiana and the winner of the horse race was Denim and Pearls was the name of the horse. So we, we wrote that together and that was the title track

00:41:43.860 - 00:42:01.979

of, of an LP that we did right before we started writing together all the time. So, um, that's how we got the ball rolling and he's really easy guy to, to, to write a song with his, his craft is really good. And, um, so we started

00:42:01.989 - 00:42:21.659

since we were doing the duo thing and the Everly Brothers kind of vocals. And, uh, he was really encouraging the songwriting. So we got together and just, uh, just from a craft standpoint, we would start just, just writing songs, get ideas from wherever we could. At

00:42:21.669 - 00:42:40.219

the same time, Clint Black, um was, he was opening up for us at the time. He was just a local kind of a kid, you know, at the time and he, and Shake had a friendship and, uh, he would open up for us all the time

00:42:40.429 - 00:42:56.840

and he all of a sudden shake was saying, well, you know, this guy from ZZ Top was thinking about signing him and making him a, he needs a country star. And so he, you know, I, I never saw Clint with a hat on back then. He was

00:42:56.850 - 00:43:14.969

doing more kind of James Taylor kind of things and, and, uh, so he got, he was opening up for us and so, uh, he got really big. So, you know, he, he came up with that first record and it was huge. Um The reason I mentioned

00:43:14.979 - 00:43:37.830

this is because we had the same uh publisher, music publisher in, in uh in Nashville. So we would actually kind of write songs, we would meet with the publisher and he would say, well, you know, um this type of song you might consider, you know, writing

00:43:37.840 - 00:43:55.669

something like this or there would be a, a local songwriter that was uh like Ralph Murphy who'd written tons of hit songs and he, they, the publisher had put us together with Ralph Murphy. So we just kind of got into this cowriting thing where we would

00:43:55.679 - 00:44:10.860

just write songs, whether they would end up just for the joy of writing songs. It didn't really necessarily have to have a point other than just to write a song. Let's pick a topic because that's what Nashville songwriters do. You know, they have this thing where

00:44:11.159 - 00:44:25.580

they have two or three sessions a day, they have a morning session an afternoon session, maybe an evening session. And if you can't write a song in that three hours that you're together with that songwriter, then, you know, you're not really, you know, a songwriter or

00:44:25.590 - 00:44:41.699

something, you know, where that's not the way we do it in Texas, you know, we mess with it, we rewrite it, you know, but it's very fast and, you know, almost formulaic there, but it's good for the craft. So, um we started writing all kinds of

00:44:41.709 - 00:44:55.649

songs and the songs that we liked out of all of it. We would keep on our records, you know. So we'd have a lot to choose from. Sometimes we just write a song because the publisher would like to pitch it and it was with Ralph Murphy

00:44:55.659 - 00:45:10.370

or somebody like that. But most of the time we're just trying to come up with good ideas and write songs for ourselves that we could use in our act, you know, uh duo. So that's how it got started and it just got to be where we

00:45:10.379 - 00:45:27.360

got together on a regular basis or we would ride on the road because we'd be driving all the time and eat up the hours like that. So, so in 1996 you opened White Cat Studios. Why did you decide to open? Actually, I opened that, Oh, yeah.

00:45:27.370 - 00:45:43.379

Well, let's see. Um Yeah, you know, it was a little bit later. Uh I, the thing about recording records and this was a great thing about doing a record every year with Shake. For, even when we were in the Shake Russell band, we did a record

00:45:43.389 - 00:46:01.399

almost every year. And so you're in that process of recording and you're learning the recording arts as you go. I have, I had a record, a home recording set up and that was my hobby. I loved it. I just loved the whole, you know, process of,

00:46:01.409 - 00:46:14.600

you know, creating something and adding a guitar part and maybe putting a drum part down to it and harmony vocals and overdubbing and things like that. So, that was my hobby. And then we would go into the studio and we'd go to the real, you know,

00:46:14.820 - 00:46:31.449

really good gear. And, uh, and so I could not just have my little home set up, but I could, uh, you know, have that experience. And so after doing all that, right after we, I mean, I put out a record but it wasn't in my studio

00:46:31.459 - 00:46:46.479

at 96. The first record I put out was in someone else's studio that let me have carte blanche. So I set mine, I started setting up a studio in my first release I think was Blue Shadows in 99. And that's kind of the start of White

00:46:46.489 - 00:47:01.719

Cat. Uh, and John Evans, I produced a record for him in 99 his debut record. And, uh, so that kind of launched it and then I moved it was in my house at the time and I moved it to a location that it's still in now

00:47:01.729 - 00:47:25.770

in Garden Oaks. So it's been there 18 years. Yeah. Um So what are some of the successes and challenges that have come along with owning your own studio? The crazy thing about the studio is that I've never advertised. It's all word of mouth. People know who

00:47:25.780 - 00:47:46.050

I am or they know that I make records and it just snowballed from there because people would like, even today, if I've heard other studios say, well, you know, if someone wants to make a, a singer songwriter record, they're gonna hear that, that Jack does it

00:47:46.060 - 00:48:02.360

and they're gonna want to talk to him about it, you know, so I've kind of had that word of mouth going from being an artist and a recording artist and, and all that and to where people have the reputation is there. So I've had it fairly

00:48:02.370 - 00:48:17.090

easy from that standpoint. Um, I've even had people coming from, out of state like Susan Gibson, Not from out of state, but from out of town, she would drive in from Austin and do her record and I had, uh, you know, I'd have people coming

00:48:17.100 - 00:48:35.669

in from, and all my musicians were living in Austin, I think that I would use on recording. So wouldn't use very many Houston people as far as that concerned. So we still had that big Austin connection. Um So I, I, the challenges are just learning the

00:48:35.679 - 00:48:52.739

art form. It's sort of like film making, you know, it's, it's pretty comprehensive. A friend of mine once, you know, Michael O'connor says, people don't realize how much work it is to make it sound like you're just hanging out and really, it's just tons and tons

00:48:52.750 - 00:49:08.500

of work and you really have to like detail and you have to have a sense of patience and you have to have some people skills and you have to try to inspire folks and you have to get really good musicians and you have to learn your

00:49:08.510 - 00:49:24.010

craft of recording something and making it simple and then trying to make it sound like music. So that to me is the challenging part and it just keeps getting better and easier and easier, even though you have to prove yourself on every record because you have

00:49:24.020 - 00:49:43.729

to make thousands of new creative decisions that are, you know, gonna make or break the record, at least you have the process down and then it's just throwing paint, you know, uh constantly and uh trying to come up with ideas and that's, that's been the, the

00:49:43.739 - 00:50:01.040

most enjoyable thing. So when I stop performing a lot because it's really tough out there, I admire so many of my friends that go out there and do this for a living, but it's also really hard on you. It's really, it's a really tough lifestyle. Um

00:50:01.050 - 00:50:19.729

it's hard, hard on your relationships. It's hard on your, uh, health, you don't eat, you don't sleep, you know, it's, uh, you know, some people are just made perfectly for it. I'm not one of those people. Uh, so I kind of gravitated towards the studio which

00:50:19.739 - 00:50:36.479

has its own set of problems, you know, working too hard and, but I, I try to balance it all out but, so I kind of after, uh, you know, from the late nineties and the two thousands, even though I'm gigging and I'm bouncing out with mostly

00:50:36.489 - 00:50:49.800

studio stuff and, and gigs and playing with a lot of other people because I ended up playing with Ray Wiley Hubbard. I'd take a break from doing my own stuff and playing his band for a couple of years, you know, play with Susan Gibson, play with

00:50:49.810 - 00:51:15.260

Hayes Carll, play with all these folks. So the studio is challenging every time you go in it. But I love it. So it's, it's a really good challenge. How has kind of recording changed from the late nineties until now. Technology's changed, right? Has also, I mean,

00:51:15.270 - 00:51:33.709

I guess also for the artists, I'm assuming the distribution is now moving away from the CD. Oh, yeah, totally. This is what's happened in the last two years. This has been the most challenging time I've ever had. I've been, it's been really easy, just incredibly easy.

00:51:33.719 - 00:51:50.570

I've had more work than I can possibly do for 15 years. And then all of a sudden a couple of years ago, as soon as streaming really started picking up the whole financial aspect of this is what's a problem is where an artist may come in

00:51:50.580 - 00:52:07.810

and go. Ok, I'm going to spend $20,000 on a CD. By the time they promote it and they print it and they master it, they hire the musicians, they, they have the studio, um, everything that's so if they, if they give themselves a $20,000 budget and

00:52:07.820 - 00:52:22.560

they think, ok, I'm gonna print up 2000 C DS. You know, if you're, if you're doing better than that, that's great. If you print up 10, I know some people that print up 10, but typically it's a couple of 1000 C DS and they think, well,

00:52:22.570 - 00:52:40.449

if I can make $10 back on my CD and I sold 1000 of them, you know, uh, maybe if I sell 2000 CD, si can break even on what I put into it and finance another CD. And when I make money off that CD, when I'm

00:52:40.459 - 00:53:01.770

traveling around, I can put that into the band. I put it into the gas and hotels and stuff like that. Well, that whole financial aspect of it is gone now because streaming pays nothing and no one's really buying cds anymore. So now it's changed, you know,

00:53:01.780 - 00:53:20.590

people are still doing albums, you know, which is a collection of songs, 10 songs. But are you selling a physical record? You know, uh, basically you're not, you know, you, if you go out and play a lot, they're souvenirs and people will buy them. But only,

00:53:20.929 - 00:53:36.239

but young people a lot of times won't, you know, I mean, you can't, you can't buy that. A lot of cars don't have CD players in them. Most computers don't, you can't go to Best Buy and buy a CD player. So, yeah, I'd say it's dead,

00:53:36.250 - 00:53:52.459

you know, except for people who still have CD players and have one in their car. Right. So, it's changed. The whole financial aspect of it is totally upside down and I don't know if it's settled yet. I've noticed that some people will do, uh, through their

00:53:52.469 - 00:54:11.639

website, you can download the album, how many people download now, you know, most people just want to stream it. I know. I know. Yeah, I don't know. I haven't talked to anybody to ask them. Like, what happens with that? Right. What are the sales with that?

00:54:11.649 - 00:54:32.360

I don't know. I don't think, I don't think there's much, you know, like in Europe, I still get people buying CDS and, but, uh, you know, streaming is what the way things are going. What, what was it that Pharrell made some ridiculous, the small amount

00:54:32.370 - 00:54:52.979

for 4.2 million streams of Happy, you know, he made $30,000 or something. It's incredible. The money isn't there anymore. It used to be like Susan Gibson when I recorded with her or even Shake. Shake had some big hits and they financed, that financed some records for

00:54:52.989 - 00:55:13.510

a while. And Susan, she, she split the royalties with her bandmates for a while and everybody, you know, that was the biggest selling country music song of all time, you know, "Wide Open Spaces" so you can make real money. Yeah. That is really less. The artist

00:55:13.520 - 00:55:28.120

gets squeezed and squeezed and squeezed and squeezed, making less and less money. And then if you live in a place like Austin where, you know how expensive it is in Austin, I remember when I lived there, it was the cheapest place in America to live now.

00:55:28.129 - 00:55:47.350

It's probably one of the most expensive. So, uh, it's really, it's really hard for artists to make it and I don't know what the financial incentive for recording is anymore. Um So you kind of touch on this a little bit about the idea of doing session

00:55:47.360 - 00:56:03.810

work while you were running the studio or taking breaks. Um, so to use the term side, man, what is it like being a side, man? It's nice. It's like a vacation. You know, you don't because like when you're a bandleader, uh you worry about whether you

00:56:03.820 - 00:56:16.870

have enough money to pay everybody, like you would like to pay them, you know, where the, all the expenses are gonna work out or you're gonna lose money occasionally because you want to take care of everybody and you want to make sure that you, you hire

00:56:16.879 - 00:56:31.020

the best people and that, you know, they're all taken care of. Uh, but when you're a side man, when I go play with Ray Hubbert, you know, he worries about all that stuff and you know, I can go on stage and you know, there's Willie Nelson

00:56:31.030 - 00:56:44.060

next to me at the, uh you know, at his picnic or something or go play and let someone else worry about the booking and everything else and I show up with a base amp. It's, I'm the first one done at the end of the night. You

00:56:44.070 - 00:57:00.969

know, I have no, no worries. You know, I can just have fun. Side man is fun. Not everybody can do the side man thing. Hardly anybody can, you know, do both. Gurf does it really well. Uh, Jeff Plankenhorn is great at it. Michael O'Connor is

00:57:00.979 - 00:57:17.840

great at it. Um but they're all, most songwriters can't do it, you know. So, um learning all those different things to stay alive. The thing when the music business when I first started coming up, come up, I, I decided to play bass and guitar and write and

00:57:17.850 - 00:57:34.560

play lead guitar and sing and learn the recording art. So I could do a little bit of everything and always find some kind of work and keep a balance in there. But, uh, so going out and playing side man is, is the easiest thing. You know, I

00:57:34.570 - 00:57:49.830

could still go out and do that all the time. I did that Saturday night, play guitar. I did my own set and then I played guitar with Danny Everitt and then I played with Scott McGill. So play bass with Scott McGill. So I'm gonna do that.

00:57:49.840 - 00:58:05.760

I'm gonna go play guitar with him tonight. So, you know, it's, it's nice. It gives you more options and it's a lot less pressure, you know, leave the pressure to the, the guy that runs the band. Um And you, you've also been doing solo work. Um

00:58:05.770 - 00:58:33.250

So what is your song writing process? Like, um, my process these days, the older I get, the more I want to write narratives and I wanna tell a story. And so to me that's the highest form of songwriting. When I was younger um I would

00:58:33.260 - 00:58:48.409

write a song just because I wanted to write a song in a certain style or I wanted to, you know, just exercise the craft, you know, what, for whatever reason I'm putting out a record, I need five songs. I need six songs, you know, I mean,

00:58:48.419 - 00:59:08.639

that's good and it forces you to focus. Um Now I don't worry about that. Um So my process now is, um, just trying to write the best song. I can get the best idea I can and don't mess around with anything else, you know, then the

00:59:08.649 - 00:59:28.199

best song and the best idea I can take up, are you a person you kind of listens for phrases or, you know, kind of draws on something from real life and then kind of turns that into a song. I do that, yeah. Um, probably they say write what, you

00:59:28.209 - 00:59:47.780

know, and lately I think what I've been writing is, you know, I've been thinking back about not with nostalgia in any sense but different periods of my life and trying to think, is there a song in that, you know, is there a really good story there?

00:59:48.040 - 01:00:08.810

And uh whether it's me or whether it's somebody else, you know, just observance, you know, uh which is songwriting, that's what you do. You're a voyeur, you know, you, you're right, you kind of, you know, eavesdrop, you're good eavesdropper. And uh so sometimes you have to

01:00:08.820 - 01:00:24.419

eavesdrop on your own life and kind of figure out what, what am I not, you know, addressing there? You know, what didn't I address at the time? What's kind of interesting, you know, what, what would be worth the song? Do you have anything like that as

01:00:24.429 - 01:00:41.120

an example to play? I do? OK. Would you like to play uh a story song? We can play a story song. OK. Now I'll play you the re the most recent song. OK. So the story behind this is, uh when I was 17, I ran away

01:00:41.129 - 01:00:57.939

from home, I got into some trouble and I was living in Newport, Rhode Island. And so I had a friend in stores, Connecticut who lived right across the street from the University of Connecticut up on this hill. And he's the only person I knew was out

01:00:57.949 - 01:01:09.060

of state and I just ran away from home and I looked him up and I said, man, I need a place to stay. And he said, well, I've got this old car in the driveway and it was this ancient car. It was beautiful. It was a

01:01:09.070 - 01:01:27.239

47 1947 Chrysler Windsor. And, um, anyway, I, um, I thought, well, you know, I could sleep in that, you know, and it didn't drive or anything like this, but it had a great history and he told me about it. So I don't know if I can

01:01:27.250 - 01:02:03.389

remember all the lyrics to it. But, um, that's what this song is about. It's about that. It's about that car. It's called Windsor 47. I said, I'm lookin for a hideaway. Is there some place that I can stay? Anywhere to keep me from the cold. The gypsy

01:02:03.399 - 01:02:33.540

set me up as all. I was green and took the fall. And you're the only stranger that I know. You said the only shelter that I've got, Is sitting up on cinder blocks in the shadow of my mother's door. That car she's had since I was born,

01:02:34.350 - 01:03:02.379

no broken glass. It should be warm if she comes out, just get down on the floor. He said you wouldn't know to see it there. But it was once a grand affair to roll along the road in such a style. After dinner, we pile in.

01:03:03.639 - 01:03:32.310

Dad would drive and mom would sing. It was the only time that I recall her smile. And at night we would ride in that Windsor 47 high among the hills that rolls above the town. When I close my eyes, we go all the way to heaven

01:03:32.850 - 01:04:13.870

in that Windsor 47. We would fly. For me It was apple wine in the afternoons, cigarette smoke like faded tunes. 17 was half a man and half a child. The dorm room girls would call to me, With passions curiosities that always left me feeling twice as wild.

01:04:15.860 - 01:04:57.669

And at night I would ride in that Windsor 47. High among the hills, that rose above the town. When I close my eyes, I go all the way to heaven. In that Windsor 47 I would fly. Well, I guess that I turned out, ok. Not bad for

01:04:57.679 - 01:05:29.969

a runaway, though It was another place and time. Ever If I lose my place, I try to find a quiet space as darkness falls. I'm back there in my mind. And at night when I ride in that Windsor 47, High among the hills that rise

01:05:29.979 - 01:06:10.000

above the town. When I close my eyes. I go all the way to heaven. Windsor 47 I can fly, I can fly. Very nice. Thank you. So, you also brought a harmonica. I did. So, do you, um, how do you incorporate that into your, well, when

01:06:10.010 - 01:06:26.780

you're doing a solo act? I mean, it's nice to be able to kind of livens it up if you can finger pick a little bit. Uh, but when you strum, you know, it's a, they can get awful lonely up there, you know, unless you have another

01:06:26.790 - 01:07:07.570

guitar player or something. So that's why Woody Guthrie and Bob Dylan and Neil Young and all these people started incorporating harmonica so that when you strum in so we get that going. OK. All right. Do you want to play something? Sure. You harmonica and strumming? Well, I knew a Girl who couldnt make up her mind

01:07:10.209 - 01:08:33.028

Between saying what's in her heart and waiting for another time, She didn't know where to begin, Ad thats why I was cueing Dixie in Had a love so big, brought her so much pain, With all these mixed up feelings she couldn't explain, She didnt know where to begin, And thats why I was cueing Dixie in. Cueing Dixie in, curing Dixie whoa, Thats why I was cueing Dixie in. Says she wants my advice and here's what I think. Better find your self some courage, pour yourself another drink.

01:08:33.039 - 01:10:04.430

stop stumbling around, walk straight up to him, She needed a Shove, I was cueing Dixie in. Cueing Dixie in, cueing Dixie whoa, Thats why I was cueing Dixie in. Cueing Dixie in, cueing Dixie whoa, Thats why I was cueing Dixie in. So she turned round to me, looked me straight in the eye, Said ain't no doubt about it, You're the only one that I want to be with, so here I am She needed a shove, I was cueing Dixie in. Said its me that she loved, as I was cueing Dixie in. Cueing Dixie in, cueing Dixie whoa. Thats why I was cueing Dixie in. Cueing Dixie in, cueing Dixie whoa. Thats why I was cueing Dixie in

01:10:23.450 - 01:10:46.529

Thank you. So, thinking about kind of over how kind of, once you kind of think about how you have changed a musician over the years. Um You know, um the weird thing about being, I think probably an artist of any way uh in anything is that

01:10:46.540 - 01:11:04.430

you're constantly trying to reinvent yourself. So to me, I always think, you know, um I could definitely be a lot better. So I always kind of discounted anything that I did, like, as soon as I would finish it, I would think, you know, I gotta, I

01:11:04.439 - 01:11:16.209

gotta accomplish this and I gotta accomplish that and I gotta get better at that and get better at this. And I always think I'm not that good here, you know. So I'm always thinking of getting better and getting better and moving forward and reinventing and then,

01:11:16.220 - 01:11:34.830

like, you know, like with this project, I've had, I've never listened to these tapes, I'm listening to stuff from the late seventies and I'm going, wait a second, you know, this is actually pretty good. I mean, it's naive for whatever, you know. So maybe it, maybe

01:11:34.839 - 01:11:53.560

you haven't really fully formed, but there's some good seeds there. So, um, when I think back about what you do, what I do is, uh, I think I just kind of broaden more than I move up, you know, I just kind of get better at everything

01:11:53.569 - 01:12:10.069

that I do. You get better at being a guitar player, you're getting better at finger picking, you get better at strumming, you get better lead player, you understand music more, you understand your voice more and your range more. You have more confidence in your writing and

01:12:10.080 - 01:12:25.020

your approach to writing. But there's still, it's really kind of moving sideways, you know, as opposed to you think that you're doing this, but you really, you just kind of, that's why when you had mentioned like a song that you might have played a long time

01:12:25.029 - 01:12:49.500

ago, I don't really look stylistically like I've changed that much. I've expanded, but I just tried to make the songs better and try to be better at every aspect of it, you know. And so since you have stayed in Houston, basically, since 1976 how is the

01:12:49.509 - 01:13:08.279

Houston? You came into the scene and that changed, obviously just how, how, how has it changed over the years? Um It's really not a very good music scene here. I hate to say it, you know, we're the fourth largest city in the coun country, maybe gonna

01:13:08.290 - 01:13:25.850

be the third and you, you would think there'd be a lot healthier music scene. There was a lot healthier music scene was a lot better. There was more people when I first came here, you know, and that's history is kind of born that out, you know,

01:13:25.859 - 01:13:42.270

with the people that have made their mark, you know, even back then, but, and there's some talented people and I see them in my studio, they a lot of them come through, but the scene is just, I don't know how people hone their craft. I told

01:13:42.279 - 01:13:53.709

you about all the work that I did. I mean, when you go out and play in clubs, if you can go out and play five nights a week. Well, you can get really good at something. I mean, say you want to be a better electric guitar

01:13:53.720 - 01:14:06.410

player or you wanna be a better bass player or you wanna, you know, or you wanna, you wanna make sure that you have your songs down really tight. If you go out and play five nights a week, you know, all over the place. Well, you're gonna

01:14:06.419 - 01:14:22.990

get really good and there's, uh, you're gonna get those repetitions, you know, that you need, I don't see that. It's really hard. A lot of young groups, you know, struggle to find gigs. Uh, there aren't really, there's not an infrastructure, you know, um, if you get

01:14:23.000 - 01:14:37.100

in a, on a touring sort of situation and you get, uh, you can travel around like that. It's a hard life like we talked about before and financially you get squeezed more and more because you can't sell C DS. A lot of times, you know, uh,

01:14:37.259 - 01:14:55.040

that was a big source of income to help supplement your traveling expenses. So, uh, those, that's the same everywhere. I mean, I'm, I'm whenever I talk to an artist, the first thing I ask them is, hey, how's it going with you? And you know, what are

01:14:55.049 - 01:15:16.310

you seeing out there on the road? Um And so the Houston music scene is, and I know it's picked up a lot, we've got a lot more clubs now, um, here recently. Um, so that's helped. But as far as the homegrown artists, most people take off,

01:15:16.319 - 01:15:31.500

you know, like Gordy Quist, you know, he came in and did his record and he's gone to Austin and then they do well, when they get to Austin, uh, a lot of people, they just don't stick around. You know, what do you think happened in the

01:15:31.509 - 01:15:43.520

eighties too? Because I, my thought is maybe that kind of happened in the eighties. Like, what do you think? Shifted? What changed? Uh, you know, I think it was still pretty healthy and the a was different but there still were places to play. I, I think

01:15:43.529 - 01:16:01.740

what happened is people have more, um, they have more options. I mean, you think about it culturally back then if you wanted to go out and see a band, you know, you couldn't youtube them. Mhm. You know, it was this mysterious, you know, thing. Wow. I

01:16:01.750 - 01:16:15.500

really like that band or a friend of mine loves that band. We got to go out and find them and see them. So people would go out more. But now, I mean, I mean, television golden age, you know, why a lot of people just go out,

01:16:15.509 - 01:16:35.439

just stay in with my 65 inch television and, you know, watch a movie or, or I can youtube somebody or something like that. So there's just more options and I, I don't think music is a special to, it is to a certain crowd definitely. Um, but

01:16:35.450 - 01:16:53.680

I just think it's just one of many things, you know, that for entertainment and, uh, people have to dig if you grow up, uh, listening to music and listening to the radio. Like I did, I kind of felt like there was a lot happening on the

01:16:53.689 - 01:17:11.089

radio. I think there's a lot of the same happening on the radio now. It's controlled more corporate ways, you know, so that, um, there's not as much, you have to have a lot, you have to have a curiosity, you have to have an intellectual curiosity to

01:17:11.100 - 01:17:25.220

seek bands out. Now, a lot of young people do that. A lot of people in college, you know, age, they do that, you know, and that's great and, uh, they go out and see bands and it's a social thing too and then they have kids and

01:17:25.229 - 01:17:43.169

then that changes and, and that's, that's part of the natural thing, but that's always happened. But I think that there's just fewer, there's fewer situations for bands to be good. You know, I think because you have to get the, was it Gladwell talked about getting your

01:17:43.180 - 01:18:01.319

10,000 hours in and the Beatles did that, you know, because they played all the time and, and, uh, you know, executives did that and they worked hard. Uh, but, you know, how do you get your 10,000 hours? And it's real hard to do. So, the scene

01:18:01.330 - 01:18:21.819

is, there's just not as much, many, not as many places to play and it's, everybody's doing it, you know, because it's so much fun. It's so good that it just kind of dilutes, you know, it seems to me everybody wants to do it because it's so

01:18:21.830 - 01:18:35.779

fulfilling, you know, and, uh, they want to do it in the studio. They want to create whether it makes any money or not, you know. Um, they want to go out and start a band and, and play in a club. They don't know what it used

01:18:35.790 - 01:18:55.540

to be like. They don't care, you know. Um, it's harder but it still is fulfilling, you know, and it's still is special for everyone that does it, you know. So, and that's, that's what drives the whole thing. Well, thank you so much for coming in to,

01:18:56.299 - 01:19:01.109

to talk about your career and everything. Thanks for having me here. Thanks, Norie