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Okay, today is July 25th 2019. My name is dr Joshua Furman. I'm the director of the Houston Jewish History Archive at Rice University and I'm here with Irving Pozmantier. Irvin, Can you spell your last name for us? Pozmantier P O Z M A N T

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I E R. Okay, thank you Irving. And I'm going to ask the other folks at the table to introduce themselves as well. I'm Paula Gerson Pozmantier. I'm married to Irving. Mhm Jennifer Sutton, development director at Beth Yeshurun. Okay, great. So Irving, I'm gonna start

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by asking you to tell us how and when your family came to Texas. I was trying to think about the date when they came, as I recall, it was 1921 or 1922. My mother was from Ukraine. My father was from Poland and they met in Galveston

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and that's where they married. And what were your parents names? My mother's name was Annie and my father's name was Abraham. Okay, and what was your mother's maiden name before? It was postmarked here, Krovetz, K R O V E T Z. Okay. And do you know

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any more about why their families came to Texas and how they ended up in Galveston. Well, I know my mother's family came to escape. What was happening in Russia. The Jews were being mistreated, There was widespread famine a great deal of the time and the father

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had been drafted into the Russian army for a while and the family was just in turmoil and it was growing and they needed to leave- Do you know what year it was that they came to the United States? Well I think it was 1921, Okay. And

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my father's family left for essentially the same reason uh the economy was going downhill and they lived in a small shtetl in eastern Poland near the German border and my father said it was just horrible for the Jews there after the war. Do you know the

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name of the town that he came from? Zaragoza? Can you spell that? No. good answer. I'm sure we can, we will do our best. I've never found anyone who knew where it was except for one person whose name also was Poztmantier, who managed to find

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me here in Houston because a daughter was living here and they spelled it a little bit differently. He said that their shtetl was probably less than 20 km from where my father lived, no connection between the families. And that always struck me as very unusual. Uh,

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I had seen the name in the Tel Aviv phone book and I had asked a cousin in Tel Aviv if these people are related and he said no, he checked with them years ago and they came from a place near where my family came from, but

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there was no connection. So we've heard a little bit about what we call as historians, the push factors, your family left Europe because of anti Semitism and because of poverty, but I suppose they could have gone anywhere. They could have gone to New York, they could

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have gone to Philadelphia. Do you know why they ended up in Texas, why they ended up in Galveston? They had family here who would vouch for them, Okay. And who assured them that they could find employment here. My mother's father came several years earlier than the

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rest of the family. My father's family moved together as a family unit. What was your mother's father's name? His name? Uh Meyer, Okay. And do you know what he did when he came to Dallas and what was his occupation? His occupation was pushing a pushcart and

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trying to sell vegetables and fruit and uh huh Sure, very typical. And so then how did your parents meet? I'm not sure how they met, uh I had asked them and it seemed like it was fairly routine, they met at services when they went to shul

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and there weren't a whole lot of events being sponsored by young people, but whatever there was that it was a small Jewish community and they managed to get together there. Did they belong to Beth Jacob? Beth Jacob.In Galveston. And is that, is that where they were married? Yes. And

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then how about yourself, when when were you born? I was born in 1930, I was the second child. My sister just had her 90th birthday. Happy birthday. That's great. And was it, is it just you and your and your sister, my sister and she is older

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than you. She's older. She's 16 months older. Does she? Does she hold that over? You know, being 16 months old. No, not at all. As I said, when we had dinner for her the other night, it was always a problem following her in school because the teachers

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always wanted to know are you going to be as smart as your sister, make as good grades as your sister. I'm the oldest of three. So I'm the one who made it hard on my brother and sister to do well in school. Tell me, tell me

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about your childhood. Tell me where you went to school. Tell me where in Galveston you lived? Okay. I lived at the east end of Galveston on Broadway in a two story frame home. It was built up so that you could park under the building, very small

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frame home, but it was a nice neighborhood and being close to the beach. Uh My sister and I went with our mother every day that was nice weather throughout the year. We walked three blocks down to the beach. And so it was really nice and we

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walked to school. There was never a problem then with children walking to school even to kindergarten and it was only a few blocks away and I remember my childhood was being very happy. uh we moved to a different neighborhood when I was eight. My parents built

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a home in I'd say a plusher section of the community. Uh also not far from the beach, it was just behind the area where Fort Crockett was, which faced onto the beach and it's now I think full of hotels and and everything. But even then we

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didn't have far to go to school. So we rode bikes instead of walking most of the time, we had all of our friends in the neighborhood, a lot of Jewish children who lived there and we all sat together and ate lunch together and went to Hebrew

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School together. So it was nice. So I did have a cousin who lived in the other end of town and he and I visited back and forth. We like to say that we hold the world's championship for riding on the sea wall side of the boulevard

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without ever touching the handlebars of our bikes. That's a great, it's a great memory. I forgot to ask you what your parents did for a living. My father had a menswear store, he was a tailor by trade. His father had also been a tailor and my

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mother's brother had, I guess it was a competing store, but it was primarily an army navy type store just a few blocks away. What was the name of your dad's store? The Haberdasher, Did you ever work there growing up? I worked there from the time, I

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was 12 years old. What was that like? It was okay, I would go there to when I was 12, would be in, you know, at the time in 1941, 42, and we thought my dad was going to be drafted and Before they drafted him, his age changed

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from 37-38 and it took him out of the draft. But my mother and I were prepared to take care of the store and she would go there and I would come from school and so and that's what I did in order to relieve him to go

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out and eat lunch when I was in high school, then I would just walk two or three blocks to his store and he could go across the street and eat lunch and I'd go back to school and come back after school most of the days. Didn't

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that store play an important role in the community there though, a lot of, a lot of families went to that store to get suits. I mean I've heard so many stories. I mean, yeah, there were, and there were other Jewish families who had clothing stores and

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one of them was Nathan's and uh, one of Paula's best friends is married to a Nathan. They still live in Galveston and there was E S Levi and Company and there was uh, the Lipknicks had a store there. And so I mean there were, it was a

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community of merchants for the most part and, but they seem to get along, they would walk around the streets to see who is busy. Well, your father specialized in the merchant marines. All the stores benefited from the fact that Galveston received a great deal of the

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shipping that Houston receives now. And during my last years in Galveston in the late forties I believe and in early fifties they, the police were rousting the merchant seamen to a point where the Longshoreman's Union said that if they didn't stop, they would ask the shippers to

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start using the port of Houston and the police didn't stop and that traffic moved to Houston. Tell me about Jewish life growing up in Galveston. Tell me about holidays at home. Tell me about Beth Jacob and also tell me about any youth groups you were involved

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in. Okay, well, the, the only youth group was Young Judea. Uh, and that was after, we were probably 11 or 12. Uh otherwise we had a boy scout troop. It was primarily Jewish and we had a couple of others that I don't remember. But they were

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fairly informal. Uh, you didn't have lavish bar and bat mitzvahs. Um You entertained by having a reception of sweets on Sunday afternoon primarily for the parents friends. So it was a different lifestyle. And but it was, it was pleasant. Uh The only time that it became

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unpleasant was after I became older and started thinking about making a life in the community and seeing what it was really like in terms of not having appropriate police protection. There were a lot of clubs that had been set up so that people could go in

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and buy membership and drink. And that was for the merchant seamen primarily and for others in the community. Tell me about who was the Rabbi at Beth Jacob? When you were growing up, Rabbi Fagan, Louis Fagan, he came to Beth Jacob uh, in time for my

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bris. That was his first official function. He always reminded me about, I'm sure what was he like? He was very nice. He, he was a good speaker, although as a child, all you remember is the rabbi talks a long time. But the first day of the

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holiday, it was Orthodox synagogue and most of the people kept Kosher as we did. And the first day he spoke in English in the 2nd day in Yiddish. Did y'all have reserve seats? We did. You had a little plaque on the seat and they crammed as

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many families as they could onto one wooden bench. So we had five families on our seats. So no matter how many fathers and sons there were. You all sat on that seat and if there wasn't enough room you went upstairs into the balcony, which originally had

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been designed for the women to sit in the balcony, but they sat on the side with the low wall in between wooden wall dividing the men and the women. Downstairs. Did you, did you know Rabbi Henry Cohen at all? I met him once or twice. My mother

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knew him because she had met him and she had uh engaged him in some discussion about and I don't remember what the topic was, but he was interested in it and they seemed to maintain a little bit of correspondence through the years, but he was in

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a different with a different part of the Jewish community. He was a more affluent part of the community in the Reformed Synagogue. Did the, did the Beth Jacob crowd and the Bene Israel crowd not mix particularly from the two synagogues. We, we mixed with the children because

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we all went to the same school. Uh and and I think that helped out. And occasionally I remember being invited to a bar mitzvah bat mitzvah in Israel, but they didn't have many of them. They were few and far between their bar mitzvahs were, Yeah, no

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girls got bat mitzvahs in those days. Um Are you gonna talk more about what happened with Fagan, Rabbi Fagan? Well, Rabbi Fagan uh in the later years I became a member of the board after I returned from the army and I was married at that time. And Rabbi Fagan

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came in And said that after 25 years, he thinks he deserves tenure rather than having to come in once a year and ask the board to renew his contract and the board had a majority of men who had married Jewish women, but had moved to Galveston

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while they were in the army and they met these women, came back and some of them went in business with their fathers in law. Others started their own businesses. But they pretty much took over the leadership of the synagogue. So they didn't have this long connection

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with him as their teacher in Hebrew school. And I mean he was the only rabbi we ever knew and they told him no. And they said not only that, but they're going to be considering whether or not he should continue with the synagogue. And they also

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turned down his request for an increase in salary from $6,000 to $7500. And this was 1955 - 56. So I was destroyed. And I went home and told my late wife that we are going to accept her family's offer to join their insurance business in Houston.

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I want to come back to your moving to Houston and and meeting Sydney and and all of that. I wanted to back up a little bit. Um, first of all, I don't remember if I asked you to state your parents names. So I want to make

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sure that we do that. It's Abraham and Annie and she changed it later to Ann to modernize it. Abraham and Annie and then later Ann. And can you talk Irving a little bit about whether you experienced any anti Semitism growing up. And uh, we didn't feel it so

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much or maybe we were just young and somewhat insensitive, but it troubled us that in elementary school everyone sang Christmas carols and we remained totally silent and that went on for a short period of time. And then one of the teachers made an issue out of

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the Jewish children not participating and felt that they should participate. And my sister and I told him we're not going to do that. And that created a little bit of a turmoil. Uh, I don't recall anyone ever saying you're a dirty Jew or anything like that,

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but there were some of the children that seemed not to want to associate with us and, but it, it didn't bother me at the time. Later it became more obvious and I felt more sensitive about it and there were a number of incidents here in Houston

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when you were an adult. Okay. So well, so we'll get to that. So you, so you graduated, I'm guessing from Ball high school and then you went to college. I went to the University of Texas at what age I was 16, 16, wow. What happened was

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that the, the school that I attended, the elementary school in the poorer section of the community actually was more advanced in what they were teaching. So we learned to read a year before they did in the other side of the community. So when I moved, I

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was skipped half a grade And between that and the way my age worked out, it was 16 when I started college. And what did you study at Texas? I started in journalism and then I majored in both English and history. Alright. A history major. Intended to

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teach. And then and then what did you do after you got out of college in the army? Okay. I got it drafted. It was the first year when I graduated. It was the first year they had college deferment examinations and they had them unfortunately right in

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the middle of finals. But in any event I got high enough grade to get a deferment. So I had to apply to the draft board in Galveston to get the official deferment paper. And I got a long lecture from the head of the draft board about

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the non Jewish boys who were going over there and getting killed while the Jewish boys get deferments and go to school. This was going over there, meant to Korea. This would have been what year, 1955? I'm sorry, 1953, 19- 1952. I'm Sorry 1951- 51

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51. So I got the deferment paper and I had an appointment set up at Alvin Junior College to apply for a job teaching for a few months and then I would go back to Texas to get a masters and the first question that I was asked

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was what religion is Pozmantier? And I said uh not a religion, it's my last name. Are you asking me if I'm Jewish? And he said, I think you understand what I mean. He said that people here would not really like to have a colleague of

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your religion. I said really? And he said that's the way it is son. And I left there, drove back to the draft board, turned in my deferment and then I told my parents what I had done. So they were horrified and I would do such a

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thing. Oh my gosh, I never regretted it. So what did you do? And what was your, would you do in Korea and why? Well I was in graves registration and our job was to go around and either we had some directions or no directions at all.

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The directions generally came from you have you follow certain map areas that you had to search. And this would have been 1952. And we were searching an area that had been the scene of heavy battles when the armies were going back and forth during the first

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part of Korea. And there were a lot of Americans who got killed and many of them were buried in the heat of battle and some of them were in unmarked graves. Others, there were messages that we received from soldiers who had been there at the time.

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I vaguely remember burying so and so and such and such a spot on the top of hill number so and so and we would have a team of an interpreter and one or two of us and we would try and get up on top of the

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hill to that spot and dig up what appeared to be a grave. In many cases the graves turned out to be those of Koreans or Chinese. Uh And if they were Americans the we had to sift the graves to see if there was the dog tag.

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If we didn't have the dog tag then we looked for teeth because if they had any fillings done while in the army there was a way to identify it from the filling. I cannot imagine what that must have been like. Well it was better than being

00:28:14.410 - 00:28:35.310

on the front lines being shot at. I mean but we we did that and for a while they took me off of that and put me in the kitchen because our cook was sent home found out he had been in the army for two years and

00:28:35.310 - 00:28:55.050

five months and he didn't know how to count very well. And suddenly one day when he was talking to some guy that asked him, when did you come in and they told him so I think I've been in over two years, no one had ever notified.

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So they flew him home quickly to get him out of the army And you became the substitute. So I guess I was substitute chef for about three or four months. Can you cook? All right, well they asked, what can you do? And I said I

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can scramble eggs, that's good enough. That was it. So what about treatment from your, your fellow soldiers during your time in the service in terms of anti Semitism or or the opposite in terms of tolerance and acceptance. Well, when I first went in, when we went

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through the classification section, they asked me, they said, oh, I see you've graduated college. I said, yes, can you print, I said, yes, can you print with a slant to the left? I said, if I have to, I can do it. Why? Well, we need somebody

00:30:00.370 - 00:30:24.620

here, but we like all of our records to look the same. And we found out that if it's a print with slant to the left, it's more legible for people said, okay, well that's interesting. My eyes are dripping. Mm this is one of the days, Sure.

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Of course there was a question um, related to this actually that Jennifer wanted to ask and I had to do with um, food and the army. I know that for a lot of folks, a lot of Jewish kids who grew up in kosher homes, traditional

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homes for many of them time in the army was their first time having to confront the issue of keeping kosher and it was an issue and I managed to get through basic training without too much of a problem. Although if they had some kind of meat

00:31:10.750 - 00:31:32.940

that I felt I could eat, I'd eat, I never ate pork. Uh When I finally got overseas and we in one stretch didn't have any meat at all for I think three months and they had pork and I was cooking at the time. Someone said it's

00:31:32.940 - 00:31:51.550

not that bad, you really ought to try it. So I took one bite and went outside and threw up and decided I'm not gonna eat it anymore. So but it was a problem because when we were in the field, all we had was whatever fit in

00:31:51.550 - 00:32:14.330

a can and usually it was beans, if it was pork and beans, I didn't eat it. It was just beans, I'd eat it. Um Sometimes they had franks and beans and I found out I could tolerate that but it was a problem. So how long were

00:32:14.330 - 00:32:37.500

you in the army start to finish? Uh two years? Two years. I was in Korea. 13 months. I started to to tell you because it relates to Paula. When I was in the classification section, I told them that I have a college roommate who will be

00:32:37.500 - 00:32:59.730

here in about three weeks and can I get his classification card and see if I can get us both assigned to the same basic training. And so they said that's fine. Just tell us the name so that when he comes in we'll be sure to give

00:32:59.730 - 00:33:28.600

you the card. Then after that we told them we have another roommate who was Paula's first husband that is coming in in about a month. And we want to be sure that he doesn't go to anything difficult in basic training because he wasn't very robust and

00:33:28.600 - 00:33:48.990

we'd like to get him -We found out there was an army accounting school and he was an accounting major. And if you went to army accounting school the likelihood of going overseas was almost nil. And they let us do that. And we got him assigned to

00:33:48.990 - 00:34:17.250

accounting school and they assigned him to Cameron Iron Works here in Houston today is his birthday is it? So so you you came back from Korea and you came back. I presumed to Galveston. I did and I went to work with my dad and then

00:34:17.260 - 00:34:48.810

uh I contacted someone with fraternity and said I'd like to come in can you arrange a date? And they said sure. And they arranged a date and we double dated and the other party. And on the double date the other female was Alan's sister, Terry Terry Aronson Weiskopf.

00:34:50.310 - 00:35:14.660

You said you wanted to come in where to Houston or Austin Austin. And when Terry leaned over at one and said do you know that Sidney's father passed away and I said no I didn't You had a date with someone else not Sydney. And so I

00:35:14.660 - 00:35:32.330

called Sydney and she said well why don't you come in and see me? And we started going together. We had been going together in college. Yeah, I didn't ask you about how you and Sydney met, you met in college. She had been at the University of

00:35:32.330 - 00:35:55.430

Oklahoma I think. Or had she been? No, she had been the University of Houston. Then came to Texas. And then when her parents, when we told our parents we wanted to get married and they thought we were too young and my prospects weren't great. They suggested

00:35:55.430 - 00:36:21.880

she go to the University of Oklahoma. and you were still at U. T. I was going in the army. When did you and Sydney get married? Were married 1955. July 31st. and lived in Galveston lived in Galveston till December of 1956. At which time you moved here

00:36:21.880 - 00:36:58.120

because they gave you how much more money? $10 a week. Who officiated the wedding. And here Rabbi (unclear). So then you went to work for Wisenberg Insurance Agency. Sidney's family. So Sydney was from Houston and Sydney's maiden name was Wisenberg. And her family was well known. I mean

00:36:58.120 - 00:37:24.030

they were people very modest means, but they were well known. Her father had been a merchant in Mississippi before they moved to Houston in 1932. But he was also an attorney and he decided to go into the insurance business because the Travelers Insurance Company would put

00:37:24.030 - 00:37:49.800

you on salary until you were on your feet. And that he had six children or five children? Five children too. Can you spell Wisenberg for us? W I S E N B E R G Sister-in-law. She was married to Sidney's brother. Yeah. Yeah. Now you know,

00:37:49.800 - 00:38:10.200

how do you know Rosie and Bill Fink? Yeah. Okay. It all it all comes together. Yeah. What were some of your early impressions of Houston? Have you spent much time in Houston? Well I had spent a lot of time here but I had a cousin here,

00:38:10.210 - 00:38:34.320

Eddie Shineberg and I came in to visit him fairly often and it was an easy, easy drive into Houston. It was a lot more difficult than it is now. But we saw we really saw most of the Houston young people and young people from all over

00:38:34.320 - 00:38:52.630

the state in Galveston during the summer. Yeah, there was Murdoch's beach which were all the Jews went. Yeah, every weekend we used to laugh that we've met every Jewish girl in the state of Texas Because they all come to Murdoch's in the summer. You came here,

00:38:52.630 - 00:39:09.310

didn't you come on the bus when you were 11 and you went to Sears. I did. Yeah. The Sears that's being remodeled into the innovation center. Right. I take no credit for that even though it's a Rice University project. That's that's the that's the one Rice University

00:39:09.310 - 00:39:31.170

project I'm not affiliated with unfortunately. So, so when you came to Houston, where did you live? And how did you become affiliated with Beth Yeshurun? Okay. Well her family, they were members of Beth Yeshurun and they were very close to the Weiner family. My

00:39:31.170 - 00:39:56.950

father in law and Mr Weiner were very very close friends and Mr Weiner as I understand it, I don't think I ever attended but I think up until a year or so before I moved here, I was told that generally Mr Weiner and Melvin's father debated

00:39:56.960 - 00:40:29.930

conservative Judaism on the high holidays in the afternoon. Melvin Dow? His father Harry Dow. And then Mr Weiner would be I. W. Weiner and the Weiner family came to Galveston for on Saturday before the wedding when I was doing the service. And they were they were really close. Where

00:40:29.930 - 00:40:59.430

was your first home in Houston? It was it was an apartment on Old Spanish Trail. And was Jeff born yet? No, No. Uh Jeff was born in 1958. Is that right? Yeah I think that's right. 58. Yeah that's right, 1958. And then from the apartment on

00:40:59.440 - 00:41:25.020

O. S. T. Where was your first home? Okay. We that well that brings up the issue of anti Semitism. Okay. We were looking at a home that was in Woodside off Stella Link about two blocks from where Alfred's delicatessen went at when we told the

00:41:25.020 - 00:41:53.350

realtor that we liked a home. He said um I need to tell you your neighbors really wouldn't want you moving in here. We said they don't even know us. He said, uh I think you understand. I said, you mean it's restricted against Jews. He said the realtors

00:41:53.350 - 00:42:26.490

have instructions from the owners of the subdivision not to sell to Jews. And I said the owner of the subdivision is Time Magazine. Time Magazine owned a lumber company in Texas. The lumber company owned the substance on Woodside within six months, Jews were moving in there

00:42:26.490 - 00:42:53.230

by the droves. Well my, yeah, so we, we bought a home in Westbury because of that. This, that happened to my parents also in probably 1950 or 51. Um, it was under construction a whole new subdivision and it was either that or Linkwood or they're

00:42:53.240 - 00:43:12.380

close together and they were told by the builders actually they put down earnest money and their earnest money was returned and they said they weren't allowed to buy in there and they in turn went to behind Palm Center, which was off of what's now Martin Luther,

00:43:12.380 - 00:43:34.430

King Boulevard I think and bought a, there was a subdivision there that had just been built like post war and we bought in there. It's really shocking. I mean everybody associates River Oaks and you know if you look at restrictions way back then not only River

00:43:34.430 - 00:43:56.890

Oaks, but many of the subdivisions were no no Negroes, no Jews and no farm animals are allowed, let me, let me mention a couple of other incidents of anti Semitism since you asked about it earlier, one was during basic training. Uh, one day they had a

00:43:56.900 - 00:44:22.610

particularly odious job to be done and the man in charge of our platoon said, um, I know no one wants to do this, so raise your hand if you're Jewish. And there were three of us and there were some others who didn't raise their hand and

00:44:22.610 - 00:44:49.800

he said, okay with the three of you have that job. Do you remember what the, what the task was? We had to clean out the toilets for hadn't been touched in weeks barracks. And that afternoon one of the platoon leaders called me aside and said, I

00:44:49.810 - 00:45:07.680

know how you felt something similar happened to me when I first came in the army and I haven't told you before, but my wife and I are Jewish. And so if we can do anything for you at any time while you're here, just let us know

00:45:07.680 - 00:45:27.210

like the holidays when they come up. If you need to know if you need any special food or anything, just let us know that incident was was during basic training, Where were you in basic training at Fort Lee Virginia? I want to steer the conversation back

00:45:27.220 - 00:45:44.060

to um Beth Yeshurun in a little bit more so you've been. Um, so you, you married in, so to speak when you married Sidney's family and Beth Yeshurun at that time would have probably been on on Southmore still, it was, it was still on Southmore

00:45:44.060 - 00:46:13.420

The High Holy Day services were downtown at the Music Hall, the Music Hall, Right. And uh, I felt totally overwhelmed. I was from a small town. I felt I was going to be lost in the big city, but couple of really nice people uh I went, asked

00:46:13.420 - 00:46:33.660

me to attend a Bnai Brith meeting and I did and they went out of their way to introduce me and to tell the other members that you know, I'm in the insurance business. If they can help me in any way please do. And told them a

00:46:33.660 - 00:46:53.500

little bit about my history and Galveston and being on the board of the synagogue and other things that we had done there. And one of them was Albert Stein who has since passed away and he was always a very good friend, very good friend. But I

00:46:53.500 - 00:47:18.710

knew it was going to take time. The first social event that we went was uh a poker party at someone's home. And they assured me that they only played for very small amounts. And even though they were playing for very small amounts, I managed to lose

00:47:18.710 - 00:47:48.640

$30, which I told Sydney on the way home, we're not going to any more parties. Oh gosh, we did have another incident before I married uh with anti Semitism, the college roommate that I went overseas with. Uh we went on vacation together, we promised each other

00:47:48.640 - 00:48:09.320

we'd work a year and go on vacation. And the first place we were to stay was the Broadmoor Hotel Colorado Springs and we walked in and they looked at the records and said there's been a mistake. Uh, we wouldn't make a reservation for anyone named Moskowitz.

00:48:10.780 - 00:48:35.400

And I said, how about Pozmantier? Well Pozmantier would be acceptable, but Moskowitz is not. And so we got upset and he said, I'll call security and have you escorted from the building? Wow! Oh my gosh! Hard to imagine. Hard to imagine even though it

00:48:35.400 - 00:48:57.260

wasn't really wasn't that long ago, but it sensitizes you to what it feels like to be discriminated against. Yeah, I think, you know, people of my generation, on the one hand, we can't imagine being turned away at a, at a hotel or um made to do

00:48:57.360 - 00:49:21.060

the kind of dirty work that you were made to do in basic training. Um, and yet 2019 we live in the era of synagogue shootings. Charlottesville. So it's not right. And Nazis marching. Two page article in the New York Times the other day of people mostly Muslims or Blacks

00:49:21.060 - 00:49:38.210

or Hispanics. Talking about incidents of discrimination that they've had, where people scream at them to go back where you come from and there were at least two or three Jewish people in there that were told the same thing. One go back to Israel, she said, I've

00:49:38.220 - 00:49:54.660

never been to Israel and another guy said go back where your parents are from, well they're from New York, what one of your grandparents, you know, so it still happens. It was just in the paper two or three days ago. I'm sorry, I know you

00:49:54.660 - 00:50:21.370

want to get back to Beth Yeshurun when I walked into the Music Hall the first time and saw mass of people, I really had a concern about what I had done by moving to Houston and I don't know with whom I spoke, but they recommended that I

00:50:21.370 - 00:50:46.140

try to get active with Beth Yeshurun and I said, what activity do you recommend? And they said they're always looking for people who work on the membership committee because that's the most difficult thing that they do. And I started doing that and I made a lot

00:50:46.140 - 00:51:09.740

of friends that way and met a lot of people, it didn't help business in any way. But it made me feel that I was doing something and they said, you know, after the membership committee, there are other committees that you can join and you'll, you'll like

00:51:09.740 - 00:51:37.030

this at that time. People didn't come to the synagogue to apply for membership. We went to their homes every Sunday morning to talk to them about membership. I dropped the kids off Sunday school and head out for someone's home and then we decided we have to

00:51:37.030 - 00:51:59.040

get them on our territory show them our synagogue it would be so much better and eventually we moved in that direction. But uh I enjoyed that work. We had a large committee was very active committee. Everyone enjoyed listening to the reports of who said what to

00:51:59.040 - 00:52:21.390

whom? When you asked them to increase their dues, you know, everybody loves to hear gossip. So, and then I chaired the committee for a while and then I chaired a couple of other committees and I was asked to be a vice president and I turned it

00:52:21.400 - 00:52:47.650

down. Um, and I'm trying to remember why I turned it down, but it just didn't seem to be right. And I was warned, uh, Ben Katz, they rest in peace said, you know, we rarely ever come back to someone after they say no. And, and I

00:52:47.650 - 00:53:11.910

feel badly about that. But being a vice president at that time meant that you serve six years as a vice president and then two years as president. And that seemed like an unbelievable commitment at my young age at the time. And when I became president, I

00:53:11.910 - 00:53:42.520

was I think 43, What year was that, 1973 or 4? Can I ask a few questions? Sure, Jennifer, go ahead. I'm sorry. How long were you working on the membership committee? What years would you say that was? It would have been, I'd say 1957 to

00:53:43.690 - 00:54:14.860

Well, let's say for at least 10 or 12 years. Who was on the committee with you? Do you remember a few of the people? Well, I remember Albert Stein was and and well and Ben Katz of course was always at the meeting. Was Marvin? No, those who became

00:54:14.860 - 00:54:43.420

president in those succeeding years. I think you'll find that every one of those chaired the membership committee at some point. So it's a stepping stone- interesting. It was rare that you didn't chair. I don't think Melvin chaired the membership committee. He was on it though, wasn't he? Yeah, it had a

00:54:43.420 - 00:55:06.600

lot of people on the committee and they worked very hard to the synagogue. Really needed money badly. Here we had moved, taken on this big obligation and people were not certainly not earning what they are now. And we had a very large percentage who paid

00:55:06.600 - 00:55:33.130

minimum if any dues, I think at the time it was 18 or 20% paid little or no dues. Was Lorraine Horowitz on that committee. No, she came later but she did. Come on, were there any women on that committee at the time? That's a very good

00:55:33.130 - 00:56:03.530

question. Did we have I think the answer would have been later during that period of time, but in the early years I was on the committee. I don't recall any women, Take that back. I think uh Jerry Payne's mother Esther Payne was on the committee. Uh

00:56:04.680 - 00:56:35.230

What about Sandra Weiner? Which she would have been too young. Sandra was Sandra wasn't at Beth Yeshurun but there was another oh, I think Helen Schaefer Schaefer the doctor because I think she and her husband Jimmy came at the same time. So were you then

00:56:35.230 - 00:57:03.600

also involved in the committee, the fundraising committee to bring Beth Yeshurun finally what ended up at Beechnut? Because that was- No, that I joined the synagogue. Let's see Beechnut. I wasn't on. Yes, Yes. The answer is yes. Now I remember. Yes. Yes. But

00:57:03.610 - 00:57:30.970

I don't think that any of my assignments were directly related to getting pledges for the building. But my memory is hazy on that mm hmm. Sorry, I didn't mean no, no, that's all right. Tell us about Rabbi Malev. Rabbi Malev was, you know, the figure on

00:57:30.980 - 00:58:09.660

the pulpit. Uh many people found him to be wonderful and all encompassing in his service to them. Others felt somewhat separated from him that he was the rabbi for those who were the larger dues payers. Um and it certainly doesn't mean to be critical because I

00:58:09.660 - 00:58:40.550

always felt that he was very pleasant to me and very nice to me, very supportive of everything always approachable. But others my age and we were all in the same general financial situation. They didn't feel that he was quote their rabbi. Did they identify with Rabbi

00:58:40.550 - 00:59:06.860

Segal? And they did they immediately identified with Rabbi Segal because that's what he reached out to them and his view of the congregation appeared to be whether it was different from Rabbi Malev's or not. It appeared to be a more democratic embrace of the congregation

00:59:06.870 - 00:59:30.710

that all of you or equal in my sight, you know, and I'm here to serve all of you and if you need me, I'm available to you at any time. And that's really the way he served the congregation. Remember we we didn't have many people to

00:59:30.710 - 00:59:55.020

fill the pulpit at that time. We had a senior rabbi and we had a cantor. Were you involved in bringing in Rabbi Segal. I was not uh my brother in law Evrom Wisenberg, Evelyn's husband was involved. He was on that committee. I remember when it was brought to the board

00:59:55.030 - 01:00:30.320

and they described him and one of the board members commented that he didn't think Rabbi Malev shared the committee's high opinion of Rabbi Segal. And for several years it was touch and go, I mean, they never really resolve their differences. Mhm. Rabbi Segal started this

01:00:31.060 - 01:00:56.480

trip to Israel and that brought people close to him and he was developing his own base of support. And he and Rabbi Malev argued from the pulpit by giving opposing sermons on alternate friday nights. That must have been something about some of the most miniscule issues.

01:00:57.680 - 01:01:23.300

Yeah, I know it caused a major shift in the congregation, didn't it? Because there were there was a a dichotomy that was happening in the service itself. And Rabbi Malev felt that Rabbi Segal was, I'm sorry Rabbi Segal was a brash boy from Brooklyn, he was

01:01:23.300 - 01:01:48.230

from Houston. No Malev was from New York. But he was he was a refined cultured person and wanted to be viewed in that fashion and wrote in that fashion and spoke in that fashion. Yes. And Rabbi Segal was giving sermon after sermon about sex life and

01:01:48.230 - 01:02:09.350

family and he didn't appreciate that at all. And then began to make snide remarks about it from the pulpit and Rabbi Siegel would choose to respond to that the following week and and they would argue about, you know, is my country tis of thee better song

01:02:09.350 - 01:02:37.770

than America the Beautiful, I mean that was the subject of two opposing sermons. So what year was that? Okay, Rabbi, when did Rabbi Maylev pass away, 1973 -73. Yeah. Uh he passed away while my family was in Israel but he was still the rabbi, the

01:02:37.780 - 01:03:03.070

senior rabbi. When he passed away. I was I was president at the time and I had taken my family to Israel to celebrate my younger son's bar mitzvah. Which son was that? Barry Barry in Israel? We took a trip to Israel, we had the bar mitzvah in Houston but

01:03:03.070 - 01:03:20.690

we took a trip to Israel and they called and left word for the hotel to get in touch with me the minute I got back to the hotel to let me know that the rabbi had passed away and we had a major political issue going on

01:03:20.690 - 01:03:45.220

at the time and the political issue was whether or not to allow girls to read from the Torah For their bat mitzvah? And was this after Rabbi Malev's daughter was bat mitzvahed? No, nobody had been yet. It was it was after she had been bat mitzvahed, but she didn't

01:03:45.220 - 01:04:11.700

read from the Torah, she was bat mitzvahed. She was the first person. First woman to be bat mitzvahed as I remember, but she did not read from the Torah. So the synagogue was split on this issue and I recommended that we have a synagogue vote on

01:04:11.700 - 01:04:33.430

it, a written ballot and each side sent out their views and we combined it into a little pamphlet and send it to the congregation. And of course, I was dying to find out the results and I was in Israel. So I called and there was a

01:04:33.430 - 01:04:58.400

two word message. We won. So it was, they voted 67%. Now, was that limited to their bat mitzvah or was that at any time? It could have been at any time. But it was, we started out with the bat mitzvah, I think I think I've seen

01:04:58.400 - 01:05:29.080

that ballot in the archive. Who was the first person to be bat mitzvahed after that vote? My daughter, your daughter. It just, it turned out that way, she was the first What year was that? Will she, When was she born? She was born 61, is that right? Okay. She'll be 50. She was born in 60,

01:05:29.270 - 01:05:49.260

you said 73 were in Israel for Barry's 62. She was born 62, so she would have been 12 in 74, So, but she was 13, some of the girls decided they didn't want to do it because it was a lot of work and they didn't want

01:05:49.260 - 01:06:06.950

to be first. Uh Lori really wanted to do it and wanted to be first. She was a day school student and she felt that that would be appropriate for a day school student. And we were still fighting the battle of the day school at that time

01:06:07.690 - 01:06:27.700

whether or not we should have one and people were still opposed to it, still arguing, they didn't intend for their dues to be used for the support of a day school. So children other than their children could get a public school education in our day school

01:06:27.710 - 01:06:52.440

while their children only went to Hebrew school. So there were a lot of things going on in the congregation that would pull people apart. But we tried very hard to hold people together to convince and that Beth Yeshurun was greater than anyone's personal feelings and

01:06:52.450 - 01:07:16.060

had a number of very close friends who had told me that because I pushed this issue about girls being allowed to read from the Torah that they were leaving the synagogue. Uh They never did, where would they go? but didn't they accuse you of doing it

01:07:16.070 - 01:07:43.250

because Lori was coming up and I told them I'd be happy to have their daughters be the first when it was just going to happen that way. And but that I mean that went away, that was just two or three people but after they saw how nice it was then they

01:07:43.250 - 01:08:11.690

all started clamoring to do it. And some of those who are most vociferously against it. Uh their daughters wanted to do it very badly. And so that changed. So now this was only in the main service, right? Not in any other service, but we felt it

01:08:11.690 - 01:08:36.060

would start a process and we needed to start somewhere and we also felt that it would elevate the stature of the day school in terms of in the eyes of those in the congregation who were still opposed to it. And I know it seems somewhat ludicrous

01:08:36.060 - 01:08:55.590

now but they argued about that for 25 years about the day school. Yeah. Yeah. Well what was the big argument where there was a split between you and some very good friends about the day school? It was okay. It was we needed to remodel the day

01:08:55.590 - 01:09:29.010

school and so it's at Beechnut at this point but we didn't, the facilities really couldn't hold the classes we had and it was suggested that we remodel in a certain fashion and we were, someone had donated the land at Frank Way and uh Braeswood and we were going

01:09:29.010 - 01:09:56.660

to use the sale. I don't remember it was the land on the other side of the medical building and we found a purchaser and we're going to use that plus raise a lot of money to remodel the day school and the congregation was really split, that

01:09:56.670 - 01:10:27.130

we shouldn't be doing that, that money from the land belongs to all of us, not to the day school. And so we had, we decided to have a congregational vote and they all came on a Sunday to hear the speeches and voted it down like 5-15.

01:10:27.880 - 01:10:49.630

It just went to pot and so I had to put them all back together and say we still have the same needs your objection to the way it was to be done. I understand, you know, you made that clear, but now you need to join us

01:10:50.110 - 01:11:09.920

and figure out how we're going to do this and they willingly jumped in. Some of those opposed were my closest friends. We almost lost friendships over it. you were president still at the time, I wasn't president yet. I was president the following year, but I was in

01:11:09.920 - 01:11:33.370

charge of the school program. And this was a passion project too, Rabbi Malev, wasn't it? It was something that he cared very deeply. He cared very deeply about it. And Rabbi Segal wasn't involved. And when we went to Rabbi Segal erroneously on our part, it kind of

01:11:33.370 - 01:11:53.400

the last minute and asked him would he speak in favor of it? He said, well no one's ever taken the time to even show me the plans and I realized we had handled it very poorly. It was uh, in in retrospect. I learned a great deal

01:11:53.410 - 01:12:14.270

about leadership from that process because we felt, you know, we're the synagogue leaders, if we say it needs to be done, you people out there ought to be following us and supporting us. And when they brought up this issue about that money you're going to use

01:12:14.270 - 01:12:37.340

belongs to everyone, not just you, that hurt me because I realized they were right. I thought part of the fight was over this open plan. Well, that that came later. Whether or not to do it on an open plan or not, the classroom, how to design

01:12:37.340 - 01:12:57.630

the classrooms, which they did and that didn't work out, they had to change it later. What are some of the things that you think make Beth Yeshurun special or unique in the course of your long affiliation with the congregation? I think the longevity of

01:12:57.640 - 01:13:29.610

the senior leadership has been an enormous plus. You can admire the rabbi love the rabbi, not admire the rabbi, have no feelings about the rabbi, but having continuity at the senior level, I think means a great deal. And with that, I think having continuity below the

01:13:29.610 - 01:13:56.900

senior level has meant a great deal. We have had less than a handful of senior rabbis, right? And to me, it has been a joy for the congregation to have to know that the members have seen them enough, have been exposed to them enough, have been

01:13:56.900 - 01:14:23.350

served by them enough to feel that it's something of a family. It's not just a place to go on the High Holy days. And and I think they've done a great deal in the last few years to really make that feeling permeate throughout the congregation. Uh,

01:14:23.360 - 01:14:51.100

you'll you'll never satisfy anyone. I mean everyone, but in general, I think when I look around the congregation and see how many of them have grown up with the synagogue and are still members and bringing their Children, their grandchildren, it makes me feel good to see

01:14:51.100 - 01:15:10.120

that. I don't recognize as many people as I used to. You know, I grew up in Emanu El and was still in Emanu El in Irving and I'm married and I'm not conservative and I don't understand the service that well, but I found it a very

01:15:10.120 - 01:15:37.190

warm um place, you know, just when we go to services, of course, I'm Mrs Pazmantier. But um I did always felt that it was really warm and welcoming. And um of course I loved Rabbi Rosen, I still do and Brian and when um first my mother

01:15:37.440 - 01:15:56.210

and then my brother died, I heard from every one of the Rabbis there, which I thought was quite something because we were affiliated with Emanu El and and of course they took care of us too. But I always heard from Rabbi Morgan heard from Rabbi Strauss

01:15:56.220 - 01:16:22.700

from Rabbi Rosen and even Rabbi Segal quoted everything from my brother's obituary in the letter, he wrote to me about my brother- Speaking of Rabbi Segal and I'm sure others have probably told you something similar when Sydney was ill for almost three years, he called every

01:16:22.710 - 01:16:50.500

friday to wish her good Shahbaz and say a prayer for her and that takes a special human being to do that. Yeah. Uh if you ask me and you haven't asked me so what have you done for the synagogue? I will tell you. There's one thing that

01:16:50.500 - 01:17:15.110

I did that I think served the synagogue well and that was when I was president, I made sure that we had a leadership training committee And Albert Stein agreed to be the 1st chairperson. And if you look at the past presidents, I think there were six or

01:17:15.110 - 01:17:39.300

seven members who joined that committee who wanted to be trained who have become president. Hm. Do you have a favorite moment at Beth e Sharon? Favorite favorite moment. Just something you remember that you just, you think about it every once along. You just love that thought.

01:17:40.050 - 01:18:05.150

Yeah. I think the moment would be when uh Sydney and I went and told Rabbi Rosen that how ill she was and he took us up on the pulpit and opened the ark and say prayers for us. Yeah, that's really special. I think we're almost done. I

01:18:05.150 - 01:18:24.910

just have a couple of questions um bigger picture, I'm interested as somebody who's who's lived here for decades? How is the Houston Jewish community changed. How is it different today than it was when you, when you first came here? I can answer it In two words,

01:18:25.320 - 01:19:02.310

more collaborative. It was a community of different synagogues, uh different societies in some respect. Very little communication, relatively no desire to cooperate or collaborate. Um and I may have told you before when I was president of the federation and I called all the synagogues together with

01:19:02.310 - 01:19:33.940

the rabbis, the presidents and their executive directors and said everyone is complaining that they don't have enough money. There are things that we could do together As Mundane as buying toilet paper from one supplier. And I got an answer from one of the rabbis that set

01:19:33.940 - 01:19:58.910

the tone for the rest of the meeting. He said, Irving, I know you mean well, but you just don't understand, we compete with each other. We're not interested in doing anything with any other synagogue Who said that? He's passed away. And it would have been the

01:19:58.910 - 01:20:21.150

last person you would think would say that because he was a dear sweet human being. But I'll never forget that. And I saw the other heads bobbing up and down and I thought, oh my, so so do you think today there's a there's more of a

01:20:21.150 - 01:20:45.210

communal spirit? There is no question about it. Uh the younger cadre of rabbis, they know how to cooperate, they know how to plan together. They know how to accept the fact that it will be at your synagogue next time and you will be more visible and

01:20:45.210 - 01:21:04.850

you will be the spokesperson. I had my chance this time and it will come around to me again. So I'm not gonna worry about who is the most visible to the community and who's the leader of the Jewish community. It is a Jewish community and that's

01:21:04.890 - 01:21:36.150

what we tried so hard through the Federation to make them understand that we are a community. What what years were you president of Federation? Okay. Let me think. It would have been 72-70. I mean 2002-2004 Because no that's not right. No, it was 2000. Yeah, it

01:21:36.150 - 01:22:05.620

was, let me think. I became president just after Sydney found out that she had lung cancer Really. So that was she was sick for three years. She died in 2000 1999 2, 2000-2001. That's what those are also some pretty hard years. Are you sure you were

01:22:05.620 - 01:22:30.140

talking about the synagogue or the Federation? Federation? Federation Federation. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I had been I had chaired the campaign for the two years prior to that and they were having a difficult time. And the challenge was that they couldn't seem to ever make the

01:22:30.140 - 01:22:56.940

goal. And when I agreed to take the position, I was told don't worry that you can't make the goal. None of us has ever been able to reach the goal in the last few years it just wasn't moving and Linda Berger and I worked very hard

01:22:56.940 - 01:23:19.090

and God bless her. She really gave me enormous energy to do what we did and we changed the whole thing that we were doing and for the first time we asked for multiple year pledges so that we didn't have to come back each year conditioned on

01:23:19.350 - 01:23:41.280

the 2nd and 3rd years being larger Each year. So and that seemed to work well, I don't think they do that anymore. We, we did a lot of training sessions. We had as many as 70 people at a training session, I think one of them

01:23:41.280 - 01:24:06.110

we had 100. So it seemed to work out well and I was glad that we could break the mold because then the people after me would know that it could be done. 2000 2001. Those were very hard years for Israel. That would have been the second

01:24:06.110 - 01:24:24.440

intifada. Yeah, it was when the market crashed and we knew we were gonna have a problem and so we had to change the way we were doing things. Yeah, what would you say? And maybe this will be the last question, what would you say is the

01:24:24.440 - 01:24:57.020

biggest challenge that the Houston Jewish community faces currently. I think they they know what the challenges, the challenges to keep the Jews Jewish and keep their children Jewish, that's that's the issue everywhere and what what advice or or lessons do you think you've gleaned from all

01:24:57.020 - 01:25:19.750

your years of involvement and leadership that might help? Well, I think, I think they know the answers to this and and they're acting on them, people have to reach out to people and bring them in and make them feel welcome, make them feel that we're doing

01:25:19.750 - 01:25:41.030

something important and we can do things that are even more important if we work together to do it and I see evidence of that and and I'm really proud of the community, You should be, I'm proud of Beth Yeshurun, and I think it's certainly on

01:25:41.030 - 01:26:01.850

the right path. I think so, yeah, I think too the fact that the synagogues are working so closely in interfaith groups and all has made a difference and when I grew up here and went to public school, there was no nothing, nobody went to Jewish Day

01:26:01.850 - 01:26:21.500

school and girls my age certainly didn't even go to Hebrew school And now we've got, you know, my granddaughters have been through Schlenker first Beth Yeshurun and switched over to Schlenker and one of them is gonna be graduating from Emery Weiner next year. So you

01:26:21.500 - 01:26:44.350

know, they've had all this Jewish education and background and surely it's gonna make a difference. I hope I'll tell you something and you probably think it's silly, but don't let uh during the time that I was president, I was also teaching sabbath school Saturday morning, then

01:26:44.350 - 01:27:09.550

I'd go into services. And one of the best feelings I have is when one of my former students comes up with their grandchildren to say this was my teacher in sabbath school must be deeply gratifying. I only taught them for an hour a week, but it

01:27:09.560 - 01:27:27.090

just makes me feel good.An hour a week and make quite a difference. Irving. I want to thank you so much. Thank you. I hope I answered your questions. Yeah, it's incredible. Really. Really your sister's name is Miriam. He never mentioned her name, but I'm sorry. Yeah,

01:27:27.660 - 01:27:31.590

Well we have it now. Thank you very much. Thank you.