Helen Sung oral history interview recording

So today is May 13th 2022, my name is Kevin Chen, and I’m with the Houston Asian American Archive. Today I’ll be talking with Helen Sung, who’s an accomplished jazz musician and composer, who is also a native Houstonian.

So thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to talk with me today. My pleasure, it’s nice to meet you. So we’ll start off with a few questions about your early musical experiences, and I guess some of your early experiences in general.

So as a native Houstonian, can you tell us where in Houston you were born and kind of the area in Houston, you were––you grew up in? I was born in Hermann Hospital, in I guess it’s down––part of the downtown Medical Center, and my dad actually relocated

us briefly to Columbus, Ohio, where he got his doctorate in civil engineering. So my––I’m the oldest of four. So my sister and brother were both born in Columbus, and I guess that’s where I had my earliest––well, earliest memory of

anything music related ’cause this red toy piano, this plastic piano about this long––electronic thing with about 13 keys, and I remember they were mul-multicolored, and at that point––my sister and I very close in age, like, I think we're separated by like 16 months.

So I don't know if it was meant for me or for both of us, but I remember I–I just took it un-under my arm, and I'd walk around it––walk around with it. And, I don't really remember playing on it, but my mother said she heard me play melodies I heard off the radio and TV.

So, when they moved back to Houston, and we’re looking for house, they had some friends who were moving back to Taiwan, where my parents grew up, who needed to get rid of a upright piano––upright Yamaha piano.

And so my parents, according to what they say, they said, well, this seems to be something I showed interest in, so they bought it from them. They said it was the first thing to be–be delivered to the house before a piece of

furniture [laughs]. And so then I started piano and violin around the same time, in kindergarten. I went to Longfellow Elementary School, which is in the southwest part of Houston, right at the corner of the loop––right inside the loop.

And I was really lucky, you know, I went to public school, from kindergarten through high school, but just really good schools with really good magnet programs that had great arts programs in them. And yeah, you know, I had already learned to read

music by the time I started violin, it was very–very much around the same time ‘cause in school, they taught violin in this––with the Suzuki method, which is all about learning by ear, but I had already learned to read music by then, so that kind of––I missed that part of that–that training, but I just

remember we were all standing on stage at my elementary school playing “Mississippi Stop Stop” together, you know that on “Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star,” anybody who's taken Suzuki violin will know what I'm talking about, and just, and I don't remember verbalizing this, but I

remember the feeling so clearly that it was a––it's––it was almost like deja vu. Like, I know how this works. I know, like, I know how this thing works, even though I didn't know anything. So I must have been thinking about the music rather than maybe the technical parts, which

is something about this sense of familiar-familiarity, and understanding, which is kind of cool, you know, to be that young. So those were, like, my earliest experiences. It’s very impressive that, you know, at such a young age, you were able to, you know,

replicate melodies on that [laughs]. Oh [laughs], well, I don’t remember doing that, but so I hope my mom’s not making that up [laughs]. You know, speaking of, you know, your early musical education, some of

your early musical experiences, you know, you’re classically trained when it comes to piano and violin before you branched off into jazz, you know, later on. Do you remember your first, I guess, piano or violin teacher or teachers and kind of their influence they had on you?

Oh, I remember them all. [laughs] My very first lady—teacher was a lady. I–I won't say her name ‘cause it wasn't a good experience. [laughs] ‘Cause I was like five and I remember she was–she was an

odd person. Her house I remember going in was all dark with just a lamp on the piano, just illuminating that space, and I'm probably making it even more than it was, but, like, she wouldn't let my parents come inside. Like they had to sit on the porch, her outside porch, which in Houston is not that

great sometimes ‘cause you know, it's so hot and humid! So that was very short-lived, and then a–a friend, a family friend, introduced us to a woman who lived in the neighborhood, Miss Elizabeth Woodman, and she

was an older lady, but she was a fantastic teacher, like I don't appreciate––I–I don't think––I–I failed to appreciate just how good she was. I didn't know, you know, I was just learning the piano, but just now that, you know, I've lived this life and–and had gotten experienced as she really put together––gave

me a solid technical foundation, and she––you know, she was so different from my next piano teacher who I started with. I started at age five with Mrs. Woodman, and then at age nine, she said, you know,

you need a teacher who's gonna take you on to the next phase, and a Russian teacher–teacher from the Russian school, Miss Gilmson, Sophia Gilmson, and that was during my very formative years as an individual, and it was tough, you know, the-the–the

musicians of the Russian school, they're very proud, and, you know, justifiably so of their tradition. They have incredible tradition. They have all these incredible musicians and pianists, right, through history, people like Horowitz and

Rachmaninoff and–and all those folks just from that lineage, but it was also a very controlling, very just incredibly intense, anybody who's taken lessons with a Russian teacher, I think [laughs], will be able to relate, and just kind of, for

me, you know, coming––being Chinese American raised in a Chinese household, even though my parents were not that traditional, I think being a musician is all about finding your voice as an

artist, and–and what I mean by that is what is it that you want to communicate to the world through your music? Who are you as an artist, your sound, your style, and I think that typical Asian

culture, it's not about having a personal voice, that's not–not definitely not a priority. It's about obedience, dutifulness, you know, reverence for your elders, not bringing shame to your family, not making way, you know, not causing any embarrassment.

So just being really, I don't know, I don't even know what the word is—just all I can describe it as not having a voice. And same with this Russian teacher, you know, she was very incredibly opinionated, and, you know, it was a–it was like–like a perfect storm because, you know, we reverence

our teachers, we don't question them, we–we revere them, and I revered her, and I wanted her approval so bad, you know, I was nine years old going into adolescence, and it was her way or the highway, like her way of interpret-interpreting music, this is how you're going to play it,

never letting me have a say or have an opinion about anything, and if I did, if I dared to offer something, it was not good enough, it was inferior, it was defective in some way, and there are things that you will never get, you just have to listen to me.

So, that was unfortunate. I think what I learned most from her was having a good practice regimen. So technical stuff, but in terms of being an artist, I felt like that really suffered under her regime, and you know, she also said,

“The only real music is classical music, and everything else is rubbish.” So, you know, I remember I–I had a friend who was a year ahead of me, who also studied with her, and she was a little more brave than me and we'd go listen to like Madonna [laughs] and Michael Jackson, and–and we,

you know, we'd get in trouble for that! And just looking back I just, I wish I had rebelled you know, but I didn't so that was just, you know, she had me so locked up. Just, it was–it was tough because you know, I'm already a perfectionist to begin with

and not wanting to––wanting just to be approved of, you know, and just it was like a really not good situation, although I didn't realize it then. I only really had one violin teacher. Her name is Mary Fulghum (?), and she was like the complete opposite of this piano

teacher. [laughs] She's so nice and supportive, incredibly kind woman. I felt like she was too kind [laughs]. You know, and she had wanted to pass me on to a

teacher, who was at that time teaching all the best violinists in Houston, her name is Fredell Lack. She studied––she taught at, I think it was University of Houston. Maybe it was Rice.

I'm not quite sure, but it's so funny. Like, at these––at certain points in my life, people ask me questions, and I don't––I just answer honestly, and it kind of sets me on this road, and I think I kind of disappointed my violin teacher 'cause, you know, I played for this teacher, and she said

to me, you know, she asked me different questions, like, “Do you want to be a professional violinist?” And I was like, “I don't know.” [laughs] ‘Cause, you know, I really loved playing the piano too, and I always felt like I was better at the piano

‘cause I never––I'd never felt quite physically comfortable on the violin. Like, I–I don't think I had the best technical setup, and maybe that's why Mary Fulghum (?) wanted to pass me on to Miss Lack ‘cause actually, that's right.

Miss Fulghum was actually a violist, but, you know, it's not that different. But so, when Miss Lack heard me say that she was like, “Well, you know, I only take students that want to become violinists,” and I was like, “Okay.” And I––you know, I was young, I think I was in middle school, when this happened.

And I remember going down the elevator, you know, Miss Fulghum as too kind to say anything, but I could feel she was kind of looking at me like, wondering why I said that. But, you know, it was honest, and it was true. I wasn’t sure, you know, even I played violin

all the way up through end of high school, and even then, I wasn’t sure, but I decided to go with piano ‘cause I felt––I just felt more–more confident, more comfortable on the instrument. So… Wow, that's quite–quite a history of teachers,

and, you know, you mentioned under the regime of your Russian piano teacher, how you were kind of like limited in a sense, you know, there's that sense of like obedience. So, I'm just curious, when did you, I guess, break

free from that obedience or realize that ooh, like, “This is not, you know, what I have to do”? Yeah. A-another thing is that I feel like teachers from the Russian school, they pride themselves on being what they would call brutally honest,

right? They would say sometimes really hurtful things that––which I think I wish they would appreciate more just how powerful words can be, you know, whoever said “sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me” are so wrong ‘cause the damage that words cau––can cause

sometimes cannot––it’s like, it takes much longer to heal. So–so I was like, I felt like I was under this burden I didn’t even know ‘cause I––just that's all I knew, you know, so I thought that's what life was, but,

you know, it's so funny. I–I went to the famous performing arts high school in Houston, HSPVA, and thought I wanted to go to a fancy conservatory, ‘cause that's what you did, you know, if you're a music major, and I applied to several and got in, but unfortunately, financially, it was

beyond what my family was able to do. And, you know, I remember my dad said, “I'm not going to go into debt for an undergraduate education.” For––you know, especially when he didn't want me to be a musician in the first place, [laughs] you know, oldest of four.

So I went––I ended up having to go to my backup–backup school, which was UT Austin, and I remember feeling so devastated and so ashamed and just, like, no interest and enthusiasm; it was like going through the motions.

But you know, over time, I–I just, you know, okay, I'm here so I got to do this and––but now I'm so grateful because I know if I hadn't gone to UT, I would have never been exposed to jazz music, and it's very ironic because you know HSPVA has an incredible jazz department, but I was so like this

[gestures], you know, with that classical, I never–never pur-never checked them out, which is so stupid in retrospect like, you know, and it's–it's a shame. You know, I think–I think back to why–why did I not, and I think part of it

was just, you know, just the––I mean brainwashing maybe it's too strong of a word, but just that–that stuff that my classical teacher––that Russian classical teacher had been training me in, right, how to think about music and what was music, what was real, what was not.

And then I have to admit, I think a large part of it was just insecurity because I remember thinking, "How do you make music without music?" [laughs] On the––you know on the piano, and how do you improvise, and it's just too bad that I went the oppos-direction––opposite direction that I, you know, didn't check them

out. But at UT, it's funny how it happened. So this same friend of mine that I mentioned, who was a little more brave, she also was at UT, and we both studied with the same teacher, Nancy Garrett, who was a––who's a wonderful teacher, you know, very warm, very nurturing,

which is so funny I–I was like, part of me was like, “No, you need to––more––be more mean,” and all that [laughs] ‘cause I––that's what I knew. I thought that was good piano teaching, right? But I think that's really what I needed it.

It just took some time to really kind of open up to that, you know? And so, I've told this story several times, but it's–it's fun. So I'll repeat it. So, my friend, her name is Christine Chang, and

she one night came into the practice room. We were always practicing, you know, like classical pianists do, and she said, "Let's go hear Harry Connick Jr., he's coming to town." And I remember asking her, “Who's Harry Connick Jr.?” 'Cause, I—you know, I didn't––wasn't very

curious in my listening, I just listened to what I had to listen to, you know, and she says, "Don't worry, Helen, he's hot. You'll like him." So I said, “Okay.” [laughs] So we went, and she was right. Very handsome, incredibly charismatic.

He had his big band, and he was singing. And they were very entertaining. But what really got me was in the middle of the concert, he sat down and played some solo piano. And I remember feeling like I'd been struck by

lightning, like, first of all, how come no one told me about this? And second, I didn't know you're allowed to play the piano, like that, you know, classical piano, it's all about beautiful tone and touch and nuance, and he's playing in this––with this almost, just ferocious abandon.

And I didn't know what it was called back then, it was like Stride piano and the New Orleans style, Professor Longhair all that stuff. But I just remember leaving that concert thinking, “I want to find out more about this.” So you know, I didn't know any jazz artists.

UT had a s-kind of a small jazz department at that point. It wasn't––jazz wasn't so established in, you know, at the collegiate or university level as it is now. So I just went to the music library at UT and just started checking out books about

jazz, and luckily, they had good ones there. You know, books like Arthur Taylor's Notes and Tones, Gene Lees’ Meet Me at Jim and Andy’s, Len Lyons’ Conversations with the Great Pianists. So I just started listening to whatever, you know, these people that they were

mentioning, in the–in the books, and then around that time, the jazz piano professor at UT gave a faculty recital, so I went, and I was like, “Oh, wow, that’s really––I love this stuff.” And he also offered the next semester––this was either

the fall or the spring semester of my senior year––I was almost done with my undergraduate in classical piano performance. He offered an intro to jazz piano class. So a bunch of us jazz pianists took it, and I remember,

it was really fun, although I felt for the piano teacher ‘cause all these classical pianists who were so––I’ll speak for myself, I was so uptight and so tense and totally unable to swing and, you know, but I did the best I could, and then after that class​​––this must have been the fall semester ‘cause after that class, most

of the––I think all of the classical pianists were like, “Oh, that was fun,” and so that was it for them, but I–I started hassling him to give me lessons, you know, private lessons, and he was a little skeptical at first, I mean, “Who are you?” [laughs].

But he finally relented and he is a great teacher, you know, he knew that playing the notes weren't going to be a problem for me. It was going to be this–this music, which has a totally different aesthetic, different feel, different approach to music, and of course, learning how to improvise.

So, this didn't happen overnight, I think this is something that's still happening, but I really feel like jazz music was my musical and personal emancipation, [laughs] you know, because jazz music is an art form that demands you answer

the question, “Who are you, and what do you have to say? What do you want to say through this music?” And that's terrifying because, you know the way, the culture, the heritage I come from did not value that, did not promote that, and then the training I had stifled any––you know, it’s like,

it’s my way or the highway, and nothing you have––you’d have to say is of any value, so that was a terrifying question to confront, and to–to–to have to grapple with. But I’m so glad––I’m so glad I did because you know…you

know, jazz music is just as profound, just as an incredible art form as classical music. It requires the same amount of dedication. I think it requires musicians to be even more skilled and well rounded, because you have to understand the–the nuts and bolts of music at

a very–very basic level because, you know, when I was a classical pianist, I was like, I'm the pianist, I play the music that the composers wrote, you know, people like Bach and Beethoven, and etc. But in jazz, you're composing music in the moment, on stage, that's really

what's happening. So you have to understand form, rhythm, melody, harmony, all that stuff, and then this language. ‘Cause jazz is a musical language, you know, and so yeah, so jazz music is how I escaped [laughs], or found my

way––f-found the way that was right for me, let's put it that way. We'll talk more about, I guess, your jazz epiphany and everything that came after it, but I want to backtrack a little bit.

You mentioned, you know, your parents and the influence they had in the–the–the undergraduate school you went to. So, you know, growing up, what kind of expectations did they have of you that––especially since you still were very involved with music, they

were––they seemed supportive of, you know, what–what you were doing––what was their, I guess, end goal for you or their end vision, for, you know, your life or your career? Well, you know, I think there’s that stereotype that every Asian

kid took piano and violin lessons, and my parents didn’t really have any big aspirations in terms of like, you got to be the big competition winner or become––I think, they really just thought this was something that I might enjoy spending my time doing,

you know, giving me something to do, and so I’m very grateful for that, you know, ‘cause I used to be really upset that they didn't support my decision to be a musician, you know, my dad for years would send me newspaper or magazine clippings about people who were music majors in college, but went on to be very successful doctors, or

lawyers, or business or whatever it was, but you know, to be immigrants twice, you know, they were both–they were both born in China, then went to Taiwan during the Communist Revolution, and then to come to the US, you know, that's not easy.

You know, I asked my dad, “What did you do when you, you know, came back from Ohio?” And he was like, “Well, we just had to check into a hotel and had to go to work,” and, you know, to–to work so hard and to give a––me and

my siblings a life where we could take musical lessons––music lessons, that's incredible gift, and I'm so grateful for that, but I think they just wanted me to have a job that would be stable and something that would be able to sustain me or, you know,

just something practical, stable, and enough to sustain oneself. You know, we didn't know any artists, we didn't know anybody who didn't work for a company. So you know, and–and I––I

think it was around––I was finishing Middle School, and I just remember thinking that music is something I would never be bored with. It's something I will never get to the end of. Jazz music got me in a way that classical never did, but I remember well, you know,

classical music. I seem to be pretty good at it. People tell me that I'm good enough to make a living. So, you know, that's–that's why, you know, I thought maybe this is something I should explore, you know, ‘cause I've–I've had the

typ-same typical, probably for many Asian American kids, you know, I had to get–I had to get straight A's–I had to, you know, not get in trouble or, you know, all that stuff, but I think my parents just wanted to know that I'd be okay.

You know, like, I–I suppose any parent. But, so yeah––so I really had no one to really know how this works. You know, ‘cause I remember everybody telling me that you're gonna–you're gonna

teach mainly, you know, you're–you're gonna teach and maybe do some performances, and I remember thinking, “I don't know––first of all, I don't know if I'd like teaching, I don't want––I-I'm–I'm practicing so many hours every day; I really want to play!” You know,

and so it's funny, I just say life is just you just make these choices every day. And–and suddenly, I found myself over here, but that turned out to be where I needed to be. So I feel really lucky.

Going back to your, you know, your undergraduate music education, it seems you were very gung ho about music, actually, throughout all of your educational career, but did you ever branch out of music during your undergraduate studies, and you know, if so, what else, you know, were you

interested in? Well, I was pretty boring. [laughs] I mean, I liked sports since I was from Houston, you know, was a fan of all the Houston

teams. People think it's funny that I like sports now when I say it's like, “Oh, you actually know how football works.” But in terms of trying other things, I'm–I'm not really—I remember in high school I really loved chemistry, but I think partly because the teacher was so amazing.

Yeah, but in terms of really studying something else. I guess the only other thing that could come close, you know, I was raised in the church. So I was very active in church activities and stuff like that, but it was pretty much all music.

Can you tell me a bit about what came after your undergraduate studies? So you kind of touched on it a little earlier, but you were part of the inaugural class of the Thelonious Monk Institute. So can you tell us more about that, and I guess some of your other

experiences that came more directly after? Sure. So I got my undergrad in classical piano at UT, and then I didn’t feel confident enough to apply for a master’s in jazz or to start a master’s in jazz, but I didn’t want to do another undergrad

degree ‘cause my parents would have flipped out when I told them I really wanted to study jazz. My dad was like, “What?” I think he yelled at me for like three hours [laughs]. And you know, I don't blame him like this probably came from––seem to come from left

field for them, and they you know, for–for them classical music at least they had a frame of reference for that, but jazz? So even though he made me apply for master's programs at other schools, I think I auditioned––I went to–– auditioned at Eastman and Peabody and

Yale, I don't remember. I–I really wanted to stay at UT and keep studying jazz ‘cause I felt like, you know, I really liked the teacher. I liked the program. It felt like, you know, it was still a small program so there weren't that many students.

So I was being made to do things I probably wasn't ready to do, [laughs] like play in a––play with a Jazz Big Band and play in small groups. But they needed pianists. So. I actually ended up staying at UT.

I did a master's first in classical piano though. I did a master's—a-another classical degree, but then took all the jazz classes they had to offer. They didn't offer a master's in jazz anyway, but I took everything they had. And then I was kind of not sure what I wanted to do.

People said you should go to New York. I didn't know if I was ready for something like that. You know, I still really had been only playing for like maybe two and a half years. So my dad of course was like, “Okay, you know, you–you

have to apply for DMA,” which was the last thing I wanted to do. You know, I did not want to do a DMA and it's just called Doctor of Musical Arts. It's the musical equivalent of a PhD. I didn't want to do another classical degree, but to placate him I sent

off for these brochures from different schools and one of them was a New England Conservatory. And when I opened up the envelope, just it was like three lines announcing the brand new Thelonious Monk Institute of Jazz Performance at New England Conservatory, it

was a full scholarship, but they only accepted one student of—from each instrument. So I know my––I–I just think my chances of getting in are like, zero [laughs], but I decided to apply anyway. And I–I–I still can't believe they accepted me.

You know, I feel so grateful ‘cause it really was a life changing experience. The–the thrust of that program was to teach jazz in a school setting the way it had been taught up until then, which was they would call it “on the streets,” master to

apprentice. You know, jazz was not welcome in the schools for very long. In fact, if they heard you play jazz, they'd kick you out or threaten you with expulsion. So we didn't have any classes like traditional––it was a two year diploma program––weren't—there

was only one class we had to take, and the rest of the time was spent with the jazz masters, a very special generation of musicians who unfortunately, so many have passed on. They were part of the history of this music, had a hand in creating it, had a hand in

being a part of just really pivotal moments, you know, people like Clark Terry, Jackie McLean, Jimmy Heath, Barry Harris, you know, Ron Carter, the bassist, was the artistic director of the program.

It was just unbelievable, ta-I mean these people were on my CDs, you know, we got to tour with Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter, just mind blowing, you know, to–to—'cause learning jazz is not just technical information. It's being around the master, spending time with them, they were so generous with

themselves; they'd tell us all these stories, the history, you know, and they love the music so much, they loved us enough to tell us the truth, even though you know, sometimes it would make us cry a little bit, ‘cause they really wanted us to get it. ‘Cause, you know, something they all said was, you know, “You need to know the history

of this music, you need to understand the tradition, but we want you to move the music forward in your own way” that was, you know, what they wanted for us and how they taught us. So that really put me on the path I'm on today, and I

know I would be a very different musician, if I didn't have that experience because—just to have contact with those people, it's like, being able to––like if you're a classical musician, being able to study directly with Bach or Beethoven or Debussy. I mean, it's just incredible, and it was

hard. You know, I–I worked so hard, I continue to work hard ‘cause I like I said jazz is totally different than classical music in so many ways, and I knew from the beginning because of just how incredible this art form is, where it comes from, the story that has, you know, its history.

Just, I wanted to really play it authentically genuine, you know, really be able to swing, improvise, know the language, not fake it ‘cause I could play the notes, but in jazz, it's not even—it’s how you play the notes, you know. And also it's so different from classical

and that—as a classical piano is such a solitary art form, you know, it's you by yourself in the practice room, you by yourself on the stage, but with jazz you're making music together with people and that's something that I still have to remember when you're on stage. It's like giving up that control and learning how to be in musical

conversation. That–that takes a lot of courage I think, you know, and vulnerability and–and–and being open to people who don't hear music the same way you do, who don't feel it the same way you do, and then having to come together and make something

beautiful on the spot. But that's–that's the awesome thing about jazz. I–I remember Jimmy Heath, great tenor saxophonist, something he would say––he had so many great sayings––but he said for him the jazz

bandstand for him is the ideal of what democracy should be, because everybody comes prepared you know, you understand your role, you did your homework, you know you are able to fulfill your responsibilities to the band. Everybody gets a moment to shine and their solos to say their piece,

but in the end, together, you are able to create something even greater, so yeah. It's wonderful to hear, I guess, how, you know, profound that experience was for you, and I'd now

like to move on to more of your, I guess, recent works. So, you know, in 2021, you were a Guggenheim Fellow. So can you tell me about your Guggenheim Fellowship project Jazz Portraits? Sure, that's a good segue ‘cause it's related to the–the Monk Institute.

So, you know, I do some teaching now, and I feel like the landscape students are facing currently is challenging in some ways. You know, when I was a student, there wasn't YouTube, there wasn't iTunes and all this

stuff. So, it's just this––I remember, you know, for us finding albums, or going to the CDs, you know, Tower Records and flipping through CDs and exchanging recordings and, you know, that was like, it was almost like a treasure hunt for knowledge.

And I think when you have to search for stuff like that, you know things in a different way. Then now, where everything––anything you—imaginable that you could want is available at your fingertips. So students, I feel like they have this incredible volume, but just

very––it's not very deep. You know, and also, there's not a sense of connection to the past, there's not a value for it. So these jazz portraits are musical portraits of these jazz masters that I learned from,

and it's in a big band format, something I've––that's still rather new. I've–I've mostly written and played in small ensembles, you know, quartet, quintet. So that's a huge challenge, but I applied for this––applied for the Guggenheim

in 2020 during the pandemic, and I remember wanting to do a project that would involve a lot of people, although I was like, what was I thinking? [laughs] But just, you know, just that sense of community, which we are starting to get back, which has been such a amazing

experience after being isolated in our Zoom windows and live streaming from our homes for, like, a good, better part of a year and a half. So, yeah, I want to have at least five movements. I've finished––I'm–I'm about halfway through now, and I'm excited––I'm actually gonna

be doing a concert in Houston in September, hopefully, where some of this music will be played, that's one of my goals for the project and also to play it in New York City, and then I want to record–record it. So––

Very exciting that it will be, well, you'll be playing in Houston. You know, speaking of community, the pandemic, you know, it goes without saying that the pandemic has brought, you know, challenges on all aspects of society.

But for you specifically, what sort of challenges did it bring to your artistry, you know, your work and, you know, your performances you–you mentioned, you know, isolation earlier? I think it was—first was the shock of seeing all my gigs get

cancelled. Like, gradually over the whole 2020, ou know, everything was postponed or canceled outright, and that was really devastating, because, you know, we don't clock in and clock out every day. We, you know, we work from home, we go on the road

and just that come to a crashing halt. Like, it was really––I remember thinking, am I ever going to play music with people again [laughs]? You know, when we didn't know what was going to happen?

So I think it was more the mental, emotional, psychological anguish that that time put on us, you know, like, I actually looking back, I mean, a lot happened for me during 2020 and

2021, but it wasn't––it didn't feel like––because I remember a lot of people at the beginning saying, "Oh, Helen, this is so great. You're gonna to have so much time and you're gonna to you know write so much music, I'm really looking forward, you're gonna have so much creativity," and I remember thinking,

“Oh my God, I'm just––I don't know if I'm gonna to survive this. The last thing I feel like doing is writing music and being inspiring”, but I guess, you know, in retrospect, it sure seemed like I did, you know, I record––I released two albums in 2021, my first LP and then the

album quartet plus and the Guggenheim happened and, you know, a lot of other grant projects. I did a digital residency for Chamber Music America called Re-Orientation: Asian American Artists Out Loud.

I finished––I've been doing these jazz and neuroscience programs. So if anything––I've, you know, I'm grateful for the time just loo-looking back even though it sucked––I hated––I hated not going on the road and stuff, but just having the time to really practice even though I didn't feel like I was practicing at the time ‘cause

I was like, oh yeah, this sucks, but I was still you know, practicing ‘cause there––you know, when you're going on the road having to––running from this to that. It's hard to have continui-continuity in terms of your thoughts, and you know, how you⁠—what you're working on.

So that's something I want to hold on to because it started to get crazy again. [laughs] I was talking to my friends, like, “Is this how we used to live before the pandemic?” And they're like, “Yeah, probably even more!” So, yeah, so it was–it

was––it didn’t feel great going through it. [laughs] I wish I had slept more instead of stayed up, you know, just morbidly like, what's gonna happen, but I think definitely, just really holding on to the lessons of just––it's

really important to rest and stop, you know, and–and guard time because otherwise, I mean, it's already mid-May, I can't believe it. This year is just like––so yeah, it was–it was definitely a tough time, but thank God

for silver linings or, you know, it's good comes with the bad, I guess. You know, for–for your digital residency Re-Orientation: Asian American Artists Out Loud, you know, I’ve watched various of the clips that you sent

me, with regards to the residency, I think you did a wonderful job, especially with regards to kind of how you mesh together, you know, various, you know, Asian American artists, you know, beyond the realm of like jazz and hip hop into the piece of work.

So I’d like to hear, in your own words, how you thought this residency would combat the rise of anti-Asian sentiment? Yes, ‘cause that was very much in the news when I applied for this residency, ‘cause we could do, you know, on any topic that we chose, and I

think that's the main–one of the main hopes I had was just to show––‘cause I feel like the way Asians in general have been portrayed in popular media or whatever popular culture has been so narrow, you know?

I mean, it's definitely changed a whole bunch, but I'm still not satisfied with a lot of it, ‘cause I feel so much of–so much of it co-ops black culture, which, you know, I don't––I–I admire and love so––all of it, right, but I feel like

Asians it's like, we're this–we're this convenient minority when we need to be, and other times, we're not considered a–a minority. I remember I served on a panel for this jazz symposium––Jazz Congress in New York City, and I don't know why this decision was made,

but an African American was not on the panel, it was all–all woman panel, and people became very upset. Rightly so, you know? But I remember a comment, someone saying, “I don't appreciate that there weren't

any women of color on this panel” [laughs]. And I was like, “I don't identify as white, you know, I'm Asian, Asian American.” So it's–it's like we––I feel like we're in this very strange place.

Stuck between the obvious black and white, and then also just, I think it's partly from our culture, too, because it's what I spoke about earlier about not making waves, just put your head down, do your thing.

So it's like almost kind of, you know, we don't really have a voice ‘cause we've never really looked for one maybe? Or saw the need, or maybe it didn't––I don't know, but I really––what I would love is to see—what is an Asian American voice in the arts?

Or how—what’s an Asian American expression, because if you asked me, I wouldn't––it would always be like, well, okay, maybe a copy of this, we o-op that we––but just something––and I think that's something that's gonna take time, and it's going to take effort, and so

part of bringing in non- musicians or people from other disciplines, I wanted to show just the cool things Asian Americans are doing that yo-that would not first come to mind. Like the first––the artist Amanda Phingbodhipakkiya. Just amazing!

She's so brilliant, like she's painting these monolithic murals all over the country and the just the different things she's done–done combining her background in neuroscience and dance, and it's just stunning what she's doing. And then the poet, you know, Serena Yang, she was New York City's youth Poet

Laureate. And, I mean, when you think Asian American, I don't think poet would come to mind at–at top of list either, and then a rapper, you know, Heesun Lee and just––each of them had such fascinating stories and their journey, and I just wanted to showcase that like look, see

this is––we do all sorts of things, and–and we do it really well. And just to show just not this—we’re straight A's students, and we whatever–whatever comes after that–we're good doctors, good businesspeople [laughs].

I–I don't know, just, and also just, and as a starting point too for conversation like these–these, I think I said it, maybe in the beginning of the video, like this is my meditation on, you know, what is it to be Asian American, and I don't know, we're–we're exploring this, you know,

we–we definitely have points of commonality in our stories, as I, you know, interviewed all of them, but we also have very different things, too, and that's all part of it, just wanting to build up this–this tapestry of Asian American-ness, I guess.

Yeah, you know, as Asian Americans we're kind of caught in the middle, you know, in a sense, and I think it's great that you're trying to––are really expressing the heterogeneity in the Asian American experience, like you said, you know, we're not all straight A's students,

like good doctors, and, you know, would producing works like these, I guess, with a kind of conceptual focus on combating, you know, anti-Asian sentiment or expressing this heterogeneity and experience, is this something that you

would want to continue to pursue in the future? Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely because, you know, it's–it's starting to change in jazz too like. I'm often the only woman and then Asian American woman, like what

[laughs]? You know, and I think it's just this whole—when I was younger, the word was “Oriental” they would use, right? ‘Cause I remember growing up, you know, I don't know how––I

did not consider myself Chinese. If–if I had to really unpack it, I was like, well, I identify with being American, and that would mean if I really like drilled down, wh—meant being white, and there's that––I don't know if you've heard it just that our–our elders would

call it, “Oh, you’re bananas,” you know, like, “you’re yellow on the outside white on the inside.” And it wasn't until I started performing more in Asia, where I felt like I was coming to grips with no, actually, I am Chinese. You know, I am American, but I am Chinese too, and

I remember I th-there's a wonderful music festival in Taiwan in the city where my parents grew up Tai Zhong actually, called Tai Zhong International Jazz Festival, and the first time I played there was just part of an-another band and I was looking in the program and they said, I–I don't know I'm mistaken for Korean a lot, and

I mean, even walking down the street, Korean people will come and start speaking to me in Korean. In the program it said Korean American pianist Helen Sung, and I went to the––one of the organizers of the festival, I'm like, “Who put this? I’m not Korean,” and then I'll say “I'm Chinese!

My parents grew up in Taiwan.” And I remember all––there were some young Taiwanese jazz musicians and they were like, "Oh, what? You’re one of us.” And I felt this embrace that I was not expecting and was so amazed and moved by, you know, so,

you know, I feel like I’m myself figuring it out, you know, how––what does it mean to own being Asian American, being Chinese ‘cause I think it has to start with us, right? Because it’s–– ‘cause in owning that will come after that, I

think will come with just certain expectations of how we want to be treated, how we want to be portrayed, how we want to interact, which is I think important and and also just, you know, that they call––what they call us––the model minority.

I would say it's more like we're the silent minority, and–and I don't want to be silent anymore, and I–I really think artist-artists, and not just in so many–so many ways I think have always led the way. Not that I want––not that I'm like, oh, great, I want to lead this, but I

think what the arts do, you know, it brings people together and makes people face each other it makes you face yourself, and just the very nature of the thing. Maybe that's why artists are some––often on the forefront of unpleasant things because we were just talking about––what were we talking about?

Oh, I was visiting a friend in New Jersey and she was just talking about this part of New Jersey that used to be incredibly rundown until the artists came and made it really cool and–and just artsy and now all the rich people are moving in ‘cause now it's no––it's like, the same thing happened in the city of Detroit, you

know. They were paying artists to move there. So yeah, it's––that's an interesting phenomena. But I think, you know, this is a journey that I'm on too, and I'm always excited to meet people who, you know, like those three ladies that were

part of the residency like, yeah, you're doing your part too and cheering them on. So I'd like to go back to, I guess, some of your other work, and can you tell me a bit about your most recent release, Quartet+, and the

polymerization between, you know, classical and jazz music you encompass within–within the album. Yeah. That project was kind of always something I wanted to do to write for strings.

I wasn't sure how or what you know, but you know, like I play the violin too, and I would love to incorporate that sound. So, I applied for this grant, it’s called the New York City Women’s Fund, where they give grants to women to create works, you know,

musicians, filmmakers, visual artists, and in March of 2020 right before everything shut down, [laughs] they told me that I got one, and I applied with this project with this idea of my quartet, and a string quartet and the string quartet I’ve been wanting to work with them for a while.

I met them when we both performed together with somebody else––else’s project, and I just remember. ‘Cause I'm really picky about how I want strings to sound in jazz ‘cause it's so easy, in my opinion, for strings to sound hokey or cheesy. If it’s—you know,‘cause it's––‘cause the string sound and just how

the bowing works and the rhythmic—everything . And they're called the Harlem quartet, and they're from New York City, and I remember when I first heard them I was like, “They really get it.” So, since this grant was all about empowering women,

I came up with the idea of like, well, let's just do music all by women, and that was an incredible experience because, you know, so many great women in jazz over history––they've written so much great music, and I didn't know any of it, you know. ‘Cause I was so busy learning the standards and most of the records and

everything by men. So this was really an fun and neat opportunity, and so it ended up being half of my songs and half songs by other women. Incredible pioneers in this music, you know, Mary Lou Williams,

Geri Allen, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Marian McPartland, and Carla Bley. And we record––I mean I'd never––because it was a grant, it had to be done by a certain time. So I've never recorded and released an album in the same year within a matter of months; it was so crazy.

We recorded it in April of 2021. I mixed it in May, mastered it in June, sent it to the record label in July, and it came out in September, and it's been so fun playing the music—getting to share.

I'm playing my first AAPI Jazz Festival later this month at the Rutgers University Jazz Institute. I toured California with this project in March. Actually, in November of last year, I got to play the full version in Poland.

There's this amazing festival there. They have an amazing string quartet that plays jazz, and so we collaborated for that concert, so I hope to do a lot more of that, and one of my hopes is to be able to bring it to different schools ‘cause a lot of

universities have resident string quartets, ‘cause I think it's a wonderful opportunity to bring the two worlds together, jazz and classical, and just, you know, let’s ge-I want to––I hope to encourage some classical students to get over the––if they have any, you know, fear or misgivings and just invite them into this

amazing world learning how to improvise and trying different styles of music, and, you know, just ‘cause it's––I feel like most of my artistic life has been about bringing those two sides together. So yeah, thanks for asking about that.

Absolutely, and, you know, speaking of you mentioning that, in the future, you'd also like to bring more of that polymerization. So speaking of that, do you have any future works in progress, then, besides, you know,

your fellowship project, related to that polymerization, or just future works in general? Well, something I really want to do, I feel like I want to go––I want to do a solo piano record, although that scares me to death.

[laughs] But another area of interest I have is in 2019––I was the first jazz artist in residence at Columbia University's Zuckerman Mind Brain Behavior Institute, and that's their flagship neuroscience research department, and that was an amazing

experience. They wanted to include artists in the dialogue about the brain. They have a visual artist in residence and a writer in residence. So I got to meet with these amazing neuroscientists, Nobel Prize winning scientists, and just learning how amazing the brain is, I mean,

just–just lifting my hand like this, the processes in the brain that go into doing something as simple as that are not even that well understood. You know, let alone let’s (?) go many more steps to music, you know, ‘cause

music is so special in the way how it engages the brain in a really comprehensive manner, like few other activities, and so, also, I became interested in music, and as it helps people with memory impairment issues, you know, ‘cause I have folks in my

family who have been touched, unfortunately, by things like dementia and Alzheimer's and–and you know, music therapy has been around for a long time, but just the music, in this way for Alzheimer's and dementia, people––it can really bring people back to themselves. It's amazing.

There are videos, I watched because I–I met the scientist at the Zuckerman Institute whose research––previous research––was all in memory. She told me about this guy, forgot his name, he's a conductor, and somehow he had a brain––I think it was encephalitis or something––where he

lost short term memory. He–he couldn't––he can't remember anything from one day to the next, but he remembers how to conduct. He remembers the music, and there were other people who were unfortunately at a very advanced stage and were

unresponsive, but when they listened to music from their youth, it like woke them up. They remembered the lyrics, they remembered who they were, I mean, it was incredibly moving, and so I started this collaboration with the Zuckerman Institute and National Mus—a jazz Museum in Harlem, the

scientist I mentioned she found an organization in New York City called Arts and Minds, who help folks with these issues, and—but they only did visual arts experience-experiences. They would take them to museums, and they'd look at pictures and do drawing activities.

So we asked them, “Do you want musical––do you want a musical component?” They're like, Oof course!” And it's been so amazing. We've been––we did as part of my residency, one program just for them—this is in 2019—and one program for the general public where I was paired with a

scientist, and we talked about the neuroscience behind how we appreciate and listen to music, some aspect of it. And so in 2020, when all my gigs were gone, [laughs] I reached out to them, I said, "Hey, would you like to continue this?” So we've been

doing, I think they go for about four or five months stretches, where we do a monthly program, focusing on like, you know, rhythm and how the brain deals with that, or, you know, the–the–the sense of just memory, or just any different topics like call

and response, or, you know, how we listen and just the how–how does the brain process what sound waves into sou—I mean, it's just fascinating. So, I want to––you know, in the end, I learned like, how we experience the world is really

el-el-electronic firings signals between neurons, so it's all electricity [laughs]. So I want to go from one extreme, which is complete, acoustic to completely an electronic project where I'm playing keyboards and doing

synths and sounds with, you know—in a project called––I call it “jazz plasticity,” which is about the–the how plas––the plasticity of the brain and how amazing that is––they used to think that on-over a certain time, our brains just became what it was, but it's not true.

Like, we can learn ‘til the end of our days, and that just, again, underscores—'cause I did a program end of last month with a scientist who studies social memory, where she studies mice and how they form––she puts them into these artificial societies of four, and they

gradually figure out who's the most dominant, she has different tests, and they form these little societies and–and how does that happen? You know, they have to have memories of the other mouse and who they are to the house, and so we studied that in terms of just, you know,

our lives generally every day are improvisations, you know, we–we react to, we respond to, we learn from, we investigate, we–we inquire, we observe, and just––it's just amazing what our brains enabled us to do––it's just––it's incredible.

Very–very–very cool. [HS: Thanks.] [laughs] Yeah. You know, in addition to being jazz musician and composer, you've also been on the faculties of various schools such as Berklee,

Columbia, I think, and are you still on the faculty at any of these schools, or–or any schools for that matter? Yeah, I did three years at Berklee, and the commute almost killed me. [laughs] That was––you know, it was good training, ‘cause I feel like the more I teach

the better I become at it. I did three years at Juilliard, and now yes, I'm still at Columbia. I teach lessons, and what I enjoy most is doing stuff like visiting artist residencies and master classes.

I did that this year at Western Michigan University, University of Texas at Austin, I–I went to my alma mater, alma mater, sorry, alma mater––went to my alma mater, and yeah, so that's–that's mainly the bulk of my teaching

right now. You know mentioned earlier–earlier in the interview about how you weren't sure if you wanted to teach in the future, so I'm curious to hear what motivated you to join the faculty and, you know,

teach? Well, they asked me to [laughs]. Well, you know, I think for me, personally, it’s good to have a range of things to do.

You know, like, I don’t only want to play my own music, I like playing other people’s music, too, ‘cause I get sick of myself, and it's good to have perspective, different perspectives, right ‘cause none of us see it all, and–and my mother always says, “Teaching is a way of giving back.” And she’s right, you

know, like, even though I’m still so reticent about really just, I think teaching, like I said earlier, it’s–it’s–it’s a huge responsibility, ‘cause you have the life of a student in your hands––of a young person.

So, yeah. I–I–I like that I'm getting better at it, you know, and–and I think it also helps me realize, oh, my gosh, I need to practice that too [laughs]. Yeah.

You know, more on the topic of education, you've also been, or you've produced, I think, a Jazz Week Program. [HS: Oh yeah.] So tell me–tell me more about that program. That was also made possible by a Chamber Music America grant.

It was—I identified this school it's–it's called Urban Promise in Camden, New Jersey, which they collect students that don't––are not able to function well in a traditional school setting. You know, people who get suspended or maybe just have

issues, and they bring them into this special environment, and really, it's amazing the work that they do. ‘Cause they're not only teaching them school stuff, they're enabling them to become successful at being a part of society. And I think it's K through––I don't know––yeah, it's all the way

through high school, but I think we only––I don't––this was a while ago––I know we––it––we at least––we went through like–like from second grade through eighth grade, and so I wanted to design like a really holistic experience of jazz ‘cause I wanted them to––and–and the faculty there

is wonderful. So they helped me design this program where there was an artistic component to it, where they learned about artists associated with the jazz era—with jazz, like Romare Bearden and his style and investigating that style and then making their own artworks in that style.

And then also, musically, that they had students, choreogra––they choreographed a dance to jazz music. They also had instruments, and I brought my quartet, and we played with the student instrumentalists, we also arranged songs for them to sing that we

played with them. So it was like a big extravaganza. It was like a whole week, like we went there and worked with them each day, taught them a little bit about the history of jazz and rehearsed, and at the end of the week, we gave a big concert where all the families came, and it was a––it was so

much work, but it really was an amazing experience. And I hope some of them, you know, went on to at least listen to jazz and or even play an instrument, and it was funny, you know, we asked students to write their thoughts about them, and one of

them was like, “I don't really like jazz, but I like”––I love how honest kids are, “but I like the saxophone player because he looked cool” or something like that. So yeah ‘cause I–I think any chance you can–you can give young people exposure to music, to

jazz, to the arts is so important for their whole lives, you know—‘cause the arts are so special ‘cause it really––the arts encompass everything, you know, math, science, history. It's all in there, and it's––it teaches you things that

I think not many other things can. Yes, absolutely. Are you currently involved with, you know, any other music education efforts or programs?

Yeah, you know, I do a lot for Jazz at Lincoln Center. They have various initiatives all over the country. They have something called Jazz St. Louis, which I've done, Master Classes and–and rehearsed

their, you know, coached their student combos. I've taught at something—they call—have Swing University, which is for adults, where teach on different topics. I do summer jazz workshops, you know, all over the country,

at different jazz academies, short–short things in the summer. So, yeah, and then yeah, that's–that's–that's mainly I think, the other educational activities that I do.

I'd like to now move on to some of your––some details about your family, and also, I guess, growing up and identity and heritage to end our interview. So the first question I have is, you know, we've

talked about your parents a bit throughout the interview, and would you say––wo-how would you describe your relationship with them now that you're, you know, an accomplished composer, musician? Well, I'm still their daughter.

[laughs] I don't think they really understand what I do, like—like, I don't think they can understand how much it means to me and what it means to me. But I think they're just happy that they see that I'm happy doing what I do, and that I'm

doing okay, not on the streets [laughs]. You know, able to make a living and so that, I think that's enough for me, you know. So, you know, when I'm––whenever I'm in Houston, I make them come to the shows

[laughs], and I think they enjoy it––they've come to see some different shows, and yeah, I think they've accepted it [laughs]. Do you––oh, well, you did mention that you have siblings––the oldest––you're the oldest. You know, what–what do they do?

Okay, yeah, no, they're all much more traditional and very impressive. Sister. She's a molecular biologist at Sloan Kettering in New York doing––I think she was doing cancer research, I'm not sure what research she's doing now, and my brother made a lot of money on Wall Street.

He's Wall Street guy [laughs], and then my youngest sister, my parents finally got their wish, she's an anesthesiologist. [laughs] So yeah, so funny, because a few––like, not that long ago, a friend of mine said, you know, Helen, I think you were the black sheep of

your family. And I was like, “What?” Because I always thought of myself as so dutiful and obedient, and, you know, but I was like, “I guess, if you think of it that way, you know, I set a bad example by going against our parents wishes” [laughs]. But like I said, I think you know it––I’m glad it all worked out ‘cause I think

if––I probably would be very different and probably very unhappy person if I was doing something else right now. Worked out it did, and how would you describe your relationship with your siblings?

Uh, it's like has its ups and downs? You know, it's like any family's tough things. I think—I sometimes feel like an alien in terms of just––because my life is so different than theirs,

you know, like, there's so much about my life they don't know or understand or how it all works. You know, ‘cause–‘cause a musician, like, it's so hard to differentiate life

from work, because your life flows into your work. Work is not something you can really leave behind. It's always with you. And so it's like this—I’m always working. Whereas they're like, “Well, you don't have to go to an office, so why

can't you just go,” you know [laughs]? I mean, they’re––although I–I do get some flexibility, I–I can make that choice, but it’s not like, I can just make it you know, there, there’s always work to do, and this all-consuming

kind of thing that the arts really requires, you know, it’s really––I think it’s made me go different places, meaning the kind o’ questions I ask myself, the kind of things I think about, the kinds of things I'm grappling with, I think,

is most places that most people would rather not go. Just ‘cause it's–it's messy, it's scary, it's dark, it's unknown, but I think that's––I think that's what the arts thrives on, you know, I think––thinking back to why artists

lead the way in certain—just ‘cause we–we go to those dark places. The—‘cause we have to, you know. You mentioned earlier that when you were a kid, when you thought about your

identity, you know, you would be you know, “American.” [HS: Yeah. I didn't want to be Chinese, although I couldn’t hide (?) it. [laughs] Yeah.] So, you know, what about now,

I guess, you know, as an adult after your experience in the world? What–what do you identify yourself as, and do you think those––I guess those demarcations of like Asian, Asian American, do–do they really matter in the end?

I think it does because, for me, I don’t think the point is that we’re all––I think differences are not a bad thing. It’s only when people use differences as a means to put someone else down, or to marginalize them or discriminate against them.

I think differences are awesome, ‘cause I wouldn't want everybody to be the same. I mean, even if–even if you're––I mean, I remember when I would visit or have––when I was playing in Japan or playing in Taiwan or China, and I'd be sitting on the train and I look like

everybody else, you know, but even then, you know, it's just—I think differences—it’s–it's–it's something to appreciate, and something to really enjoy, you know, and also I–I consider myself Chinese

American, and I really want to find out more about Chinese things, and what I mean by that is, you know, my parents were immigrants twice. I think when you're immigrants, that involves loss because I really don't know much about my grandparents.

I met them only a couple of times, and my great grandparents I know nothing at all, and part of that is ‘cause my parents don't know their grandparents either because they left––they were left behind in China, and I remember when I saw Shang Chi and the Legend of Ten Rings, and I was looking at all these

animals, like those strange animals, and I forgot the name of the––this magical city, but there––remember that thing that didn't have a face with the wings? Did you see that movie? Okay. [KC: I did.] It's–it's that thing that Ben Kingsley played that kind of a jerk––the

guy who was like pretending to be the Mandalorian or no–no I'm mixing things up––pretending to be the––what was his name? Ah, I'm forgetting all these things. But there was this creature that looked like a dog, but it had no head.

It had no face, but it had two sets of wings, and I remember, “What is that?” And I just searched for it online, and it's–and it's called a Hundun not like, “wonton,” it was another word, but it's like from the Chinese creation myth of the–the prim–prim––the Chinese creation myth comes from something called the primordial

egg, and there's this chaos around it, and that creature is part of that chaos, and I couldn't wait to ask my parents about it. But when I asked them about it, they didn't know what I was talking about! And that made me so sad, you know, because it's like their themselves are cut

off from, you know, from various things like religion. They were proselytized by Baptist missionaries in Taiwan, and–and it's so sad that religion like that just says, “Oh, all that stuff is not right,” or it's–it's not worth knowing.

I think all that stuff is worth knowing, I think, how different cultures see the world or how they explain the world that's––it's all good, i's all beautiful, so I—you know, I want to learn more about that. I want to, again, it’s a journey, right?

I don’t have the answer. I don’t have like the final answer, but it’s just, I’m interested in that. Maybe I can write a––I don’t know, an opera about it. Who knows, you know? Just ‘cause that's––that is part of my people's history, and

heritage, and tradition, and I don't know anything, and it goes way back thousands of years, right, which is amazing. So yeah. I have one more question about jazz.

[HS: Okay.] So, you know, you've performed in various countries, you know, jazz is a–is a diverse genre. And, you know, speaking of like differences, would you say that jazz is like, a quintessentially American genre, and have you ever thought about,

you know, like fusion of different cultures within jazz? You know, has jo-jazz gone global? You know, I guess this is a slew of questions I have but, yeah. Well, for me, jazz began as an African American

expression, art form. You know, it's an expression of their experience in America, which unfortunately really sucked for the first 400 years, it was beyond terrible. So, when they were set

free, you know, I think part of their grappling with this newfound freedom and in this music, you know—I think the fact that something so beautiful could come from such hell, I think really speaks just as a testament to the strength

of their people, their, you know. I think the imperatives like I mentioned earlier, what Jimmy Heath said about the true democracy on stage, I think it's––it was very important that basically they were silenced for hundreds of years, they were not treated like people.

So now, like, I think, in their arts and their music, it was very important that everybody in the band have—had the chance to express solo right to–to–to speak their piece to play, to shine, to be seen, to be heard.

So, I think all that goes into just for me, jazz is such an incredibly strong art form, you know, it's influenced every po-I think it's–it's—I want to just make the distinction that it is African American, and African American is part of America.

So yes, it's one of the only native art forms to arise from this continent. It's incredibly strong, it's influenced every form of popular music in this country as far as I'm concerned, and yeah––and also

the world, you know. It’s–it's global, as you said, also jazz can take in any number of influences. You know, you think about the Brazilian influence. I know people who play flamenco jazz and the Middle Eastern thing and–and Indian.

And yet, you know, we think about the fusion of different things like jazz fusion, you know, all that stuff. But jazz, somehow it doesn't lose its core identity. I don't think there are many musics you can say that about.

And I think to me, that, again, is just a testament to where it came from. It's–it's incredibly generous art form, it welcomes everybody who wants to partake and be a part of it, and I think that, again, reflects just, you know, this people who had been enslaved and

just wanting to just rejoice, you know, jazz has its roots in the–the black church gospel, just that expression of just joy and life-affirming just––every––all that–all that amazing stuff that, to me, that's so part of the heart of

jazz, and yeah, I'm just so grateful to––that it made a place for me [laughs] in this music, and that's what I hope to share through my music whenever––where-wherever I'm playing. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Before we close off the interview, I just like to ask, is there anything else that you'd like to share or add that perhaps wasn't covered in this interview? Uh, I just hope people––I think it's–it's too bad.

I think right now, because of just the way our society is––because a friend of mine we were talking about this other day, I feel like jazz has this––has a image problem [laughs] in America, meaning that people seem to think that jazz is this very intellectual art form

that they don't understand, and that they won't enjoy if they don't understand what's going on stage, and so I just want to tell people, you know, at its heart, jazz is a musical conversation. It's a musical conversation between the artists on stage, and it's a musical

conversation with people in the audience. It's a communal experience, celebration, and all we need is for you to just listen, you know, and it–it doesn't mean, you might not understand how to improvise over a ii-V-I

progression, but that's not the important thing. It’s just to know that it's––jazz is music being made up in the moment, you know, like, you and I are having this conversation. We didn't plan what we said—what we were gonna say beforehand, right?

But we're able to communicate ‘cause we know the same language with its vocabulary and grammar and conventions, and so we're––and that's what jazz is, but we do it with music. And the special thing is the audience is part of that beautiful experience.

So, I just hope, if somebody was thinking, “Should I go hear that jazz concert?” I would say yes, please do [laughs]. Well, that's all I have. Thank you so much, you know, again for, you know—you’re very busy, for

taking the time out of your day to, you know, share your oral history with us, provide us with some very important perspectives on culture, especially with regards to Asians, Asian Americans. So yeah, thank you so much for that.

My pleasure. Great to meet you, and good luck with everything that you're doing, and I look forward to seeing the final video.