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All right. Today is Tuesday, June 20th, 2023. My name is Emily Ma and I'm here with Dr. Han Pu for the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice.

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So, to start off, could you first tell us where and when you were born? So, I was born in mainland China, in the city called Wuxi, which is not too far away from Shanghai, it's on the east part of China.

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And I grew up in a different city called Wuhu, which is also not that too far away. That's where my parents live and work. Nice. And do you have any memories, like favorite memories, about your childhood that

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you'd like to share? Sure, yeah. So, grew up in–in Wuhu. I think my favorite thing to do is during the winter and summer breaks, I go to my hometown.

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That's–that's Wuxi, th-the place I was born. And so in Wuhu, I was living in the city, and my hometown is in the countryside. And so it's fun to–to play with

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my–my–my friends and to go the fields to catch frogs [laughs], fish, and my grandparent—m-my grandmom had some ducks and chicken, feed them. Yeah, it's always–always fun to go–go back to my hometown and living in the

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countryside. Nice. It's nice that you were able to spend time in both places. That sounds fun. [HP: Mhm, yeah.]

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Also, my mom is from Shanghai, so I also visit Shanghai. When I was young, I don't—I didn't like the big city like Shanghai that–that much because it's too crowded and always noisy. But later on, I start to like Shanghai

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too. It's very, very different. So, a very big contrast between the countryside and the big cities. At least when I was young, th-the difference is very, very big. Yeah, very different for sure.

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[HP: Yeah.] So, what were your parents' occupations? They–they were both educated. Th-they were both college graduates, and at the time, it's not–not that common for–for their generation.

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Th-they went to a college in Wuhan. They were classmates, so—and the—I think their major is related to navigation on the–on the river.

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So, so m-my father—actually, they–they both work—worked in a shipyard. So the city of Wuhu, where I grew up is–is a city by the Yangtze River. So my–my house is very close to the–to the Yangtze River, and there

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where the–where the factory is. So, my father was–was engineer and then became a manager. And my mom was a teacher in the technical school associated with–with the company.

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And do you think that kind of influenced, like, your later path to becoming a professor yourself? I think it can, because my–my mom was a–was a teacher and–and they both have background in—sort of in the STEM background, like, engineer.

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So, from very early on, I was very interested in–in science and my–my parents bought me books, and one of the books I can still remember, at least I remember the title, is "The Stories of Elements" and told—tells how–how those chemical elements were discovered.

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And I think it's very fascinating. And so later on when I went to—when I was doing middle school, start to take chemistry lessons, I became really hooked. And–and I was initially very interested in becoming a chemist, even though

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later on I switched to physics. But that's another story. Yeah, that's cool. So kind of related to that, do you have, like, a specific moment that you remember—that you remember as, like, kickstarting your interest in science?

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I don't know there is a very specific moment, like "aha moment," I decided from that day on, I want to become a scientist. When I was growing up in China in the '70s and '80s, China was in this transition period,

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you know, the–the Cultural Revolution ended in '76 and the whole nation is—want to recover from that horrible ten years of Cultural Revolution. And during that time,

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college entrance exam stopped. So, it restarted in 1977. And so knowledge was the—so, people with–with high education was very much respected.

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So, at the time when you grew up as a small child, to become a scientist is one of the favorite dreams of many, many kids. So, I'm–I'm just–I was just one of them. It's very different from–from the US.

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I know that in kindergarten, if you ask US kids what they want to do, many would answer "firefighters" and "baseball players" [laughs], stuff like that. But in the '70s when I was–when I was a child studying in China, I think scientist is—was

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the–was the favorite, you can say occupation, for kids like me want to be. And I'm lucky enough that I could realize that–that dream of mine.

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I see, yeah. So, you were really young when, like, the Cultural Revolution kind of ended. Does—do your parents ever tell you stories about, like, their own memories of it? Oh-oh, yeah. I-I was, I was actually quite interested in history,

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so I asked my parents their experience during the time, I also read books. And so I have—I didn't really have any memory—because it ended when I was three—about Cultural Revolution.

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But I do have a fairly good knowledge about wha-what's going on, what happened. Yeah. And then, kind of still related to your parents, what were some important values

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or lessons that they taught you? I think, looking back, the important lessons they taught me is they–they gave me a lot of freedom, and they gave me freedom to–to explore things, to

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go on my own interest. They didn't really enforce me to–to do this, to do that. And they didn't pick the major. And when I went to the college—when I went to college, I

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think the most popular major was, like, computer science or something like that because if you get a degree like that, it's very easy to find a job afterwards. But I was really interested in science.

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And even though my mom grumbled a little bit, saying, "Well, what are you going to do after you get your physics degree?" I didn't know, but that's what I'm interested in. She–sh—well they–they–they both–they both kind of, li-like, let me to decide on those things, didn't force me

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anything. And I think they also taught me to be–to be honest. And I think they are very–very decent people. They are very kind people, they are kind to other people. I think these are the values they instilled in me.

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Yeah, I think those are both very important values. [HP: Yeah.] Do you remember any, like, specific memories that they told you about the Cultural Revolution? Oh, yeah.

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They–they told me, like, what happened. So, they went to college in 1964, and the Cultural Revolution started two years later, in 1966. So, they had two years of good college education after

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that. So, their–their junior and senior year were, like, a total mess. So my father actually, in the–in the '70s, I think in '77, he went back to college to–to finish those courses that he couldn't take.

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And so they also t-told me what happened during those turmoil years and how they had to hop on trains to go to other places and to protest or things like that.

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And, well, they–they were not involved in any kind of violent demonstrations or fighting between different sectors, and they told me the stories and also read books about those–those events.

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And so I-I guess from a very early on, they instilled in me that you shouldn't just blindly trust what government told you to do. I see, very interesting.

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Thank you for sharing. So, moving on to your own education, so, when you entered the University of Science and Technology of China for your undergrad, you were placed into the special class of Gifted Young program because you were only 15 years old.

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So—US at least, entering college so young is very rarely seen. So, I was kind of curious about how common that was during that time in China, and then also what your application process was like. Well, it's not–it's not common in China either.

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So, I started my–my elementary school quite early, at the age of five. And I think the—well the–the normal, the normal age that you start, say,

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first grade is also, like, seven years old, six, similar to–to the US. But at the time, both my parents were working and they didn't have time really to look after my education.

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So, they think that I was becoming wild [laughs]. And so they want me—they want to send me to school e-early. And at the time there was no good, like, pre-school daycare system in China.

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So, they were content just send you to–to the elementary school. I couldn't get enrolled in the–in the el-elementary school in–in Wuhu, the city I—where they–they live, because typically the age threshold, I was too–too young.

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So, they sent me back to–to my hometown, which, you know, the countryside, and they–they didn't care that much about the rules, so they let me in. I became a first grader at the age of five. I did okay in my–my class.

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So, after one semester, I transferred to the–to–to–to Wuhu, the city where my parents were. And so–so I started my education, like, two years earlier than most–most kids.

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And at the time, the—in 1978, University of Science and Technology of China, they started this special program for Gifted Young, and they—so they start to admit kids very young, in

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the age less than 15. And that program was pretty successful. And the first few classes produced quite some, like, star students, and

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newspapers all over China start to report on them. So they became–so they became, like, heroes to–to young kids and the parents. But my parents actually didn't push to–to get into that

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program. It just happened that I'm—since I started my–my elementary school early, my–my age is kind of—so, at the—in China, the–the education system is slightly different from the US.

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We have, at that time, we have five years of elementary school, and then three years of middle school, and three years of high school. So, at the second year of my high school, one of my teachers told me that, "Well you are young enough to–to get into this special program,

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why don't you try?" And the rule at the time is if you want to enter that special program, you couldn't finish your high—yo-you couldn't—you have to take the entrance, the college entrance exam by the end of your second year in high school.

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And so I have to self-taught everything, all the–all the courses of the–the last and third year of high school courses. So, I did that over the—over—during my spare time and went

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to the college entrance exam, and I did pretty well and was invited to get interview in the—on the college campus, and I passed that, and so I was admitted into that–that program.

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I see. Yeah, that sounds very intense, having to, like, self-study so much [laughter]. Do you remember your parents' reactions when you were accepted and then also when you first left home? Oh, yeah, of course, they–they–they were very excited.

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I think I was the first person in my high school that got into that program at–at my year. There was another–another girl, also–also got into that program. So–so actually the whole–whole school was quite

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excited. And my–my parents were also very, very proud. And a local newspaper also interviewed me for–for-for that. So, it was quite a big deal [laughs]. But the USTC, University of Science and Technology of

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China, was not too far away from–from the city grew up, it's in the same province. It's in Hefei, which is the capital city of Anhui. Wuhu is also a city in Anhui, so it's not too–too far away. So, I remember that on the

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day I went to college, I–I went alone, and at the time, actually, many—at least one of the parents typically would accompany their kids to–to college. But I think even though I was 15, but I was—I

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think I was old and mature enough to handle that situation myself. And it's also not that far away. But it's the first time I–I left my parents to–to live alone in the–in the new environment.

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I was very excited. I know my–my–my mom, when she–when she sent me off the train station, I saw her, she had some tears, [laughs] but I was just too excited to–to start a new chapter in my life.

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That's in 1988. And because it was so close to your home, were you able to, like, go back and forth and see your family often? Well, I went back during the summer and winter break–winter

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break. And other times, I don't think so. But sometimes, my—I think my mom, she–she will take a trip to–to–to Hefei, to–to–to see me when we got—when she got a chance to, say, on a business trip to Hefei, she would come to

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visit me, you know. And I'm also kind of interested in, like, your first impressions of college. Like, I know you mentioned you felt very mature and, like, very excited to start a new chapter. But, like, can you describe the transition period between, like, living

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at home versus living in a dorm? Yeah, it was a–a exciting time. And my dorm, beside me, had four other students.

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So we–we bonded almost immediately. And we–we bought a basketball together and started to play basketball. And so all–all–all my classmates, we–we lived

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in the same section of–of a dorm building. And so the—so, because of–because we—that was a special program, and all my classmates were, you know, around the same age, 14 and 15.

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So, we were pretty well looked after in the university and other, normal students, they were, like, in the same–same class. They were like 2 or 3 years old–older than us.

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And so they also, like, they–they–they acted like big brothers and sisters. And so, in China at that time, in college, the choosing a major is—was pretty strict.

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And you actually—you had to pick your major before you enter the college, and switch your major was very, very difficult. And so–so pretty much you have to decide what you want to do at the high school. But my special program allows us to pick our major

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after we enter the–enter the college. So that was the–that was a big plus. And the–and as I mentioned, that entering college, I actually wanted to become a chemist.

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I was very interested in chemistry in–in high school and seeing those interesting chemical reactions. So, made me decide that that's what I wanted to do. But I was also pretty good at physics at the time.

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And—but during the first year, I took a inorganic chemistry class, and that was not a good class. I–I don't know whether it was the teacher or it was just the course content, I didn't think that a lot of things

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were explained well. Unlike in physics, you start from some fundamental laws and then you can use your logic to derive equations and predict what would happen if you make

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this measurement, do this experiment. So–so after the first semester in college, I decided to major in–major in physics. Yeah. I also wanted to ask, like, at least among, like, my own class,

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I think physics is not always the most loved subject among, like, a lot of students [HP laughs]. What is something that you wish people, like, understood better about this field that maybe might let them see it in a, like, a different light or enjoy it more?

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So, I-I-I think my–my high school physics teacher had a big influence on–on me. So, I think in China, we start to have physics classes when we were in–when we were in middle school,

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And the first–I remember that the first time I took the physics class, I didn't do–I didn't really do well. So until that—when I was in high school, we had a new physics teacher. And probably his teaching style

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and his ability to explain things well made the difference. I think one of the reasons in the US is in–in high school or middle school when the students start to take physics classes,

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in most schools, they don't have a good physics teacher, and you need someone that is knowledgeable in–in physics in able—so in order to explain things well. And so, physics is not about memorizing equations,

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formulas. You should try to explain to–to the students that start from very simple–simple set of fundamental laws, you should be able to deduce all these–all the consequences of these–of these equations.

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So, everything, many–many different things are connected to each other. It's not isolated pieces of–of–of knowledge, it's all connected to each other.

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Everything actually connect to each other. I see. Yeah, i-it definitely sounds a lot more beautiful when you put it that way [HP laughs]. Yeah. So kind of relating back to college, do you have any, like,

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defining moments that you remember that kind of stick out to you? Well, in my generation, definitely the—one of the most important things is what's happened in China in 1980–89. That's the—I was a freshman, it's the spring semester of

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my freshman year. It started in April 1989, students in Beijing start to protest. And at the time, actually, I've–I've never been to Beijing. So I remember that the one day in–in–in

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May, some of our classmates, after—during the dinner decided that, got together, say, "Well, let's go to Beijing [laughs] and to see what's going on in Tiananmen Square." And I

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didn't think too much. So, it's just right after dinner. So, we just put our utensils away and packed a few clothes and went to train station.

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So, it was a interesting journey to–to Beijing. We got to Beijing, like, in the middle of the night—actually couldn't get to–to Beijing. It's in a suburb-suburban of Beijing.

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So, we got off the train, and in–in the middle of the night, there was—we saw an empty bus, and so we just asked the driver if they could—if he could take us to Tiananmen Square. So, we have–we have, like, maybe around 15 classmates.

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And he took us to Tiananmen Square and we stayed there for a few–a few days in Tiananmen Square. A lot of students–a lot of camps of students from universities all over China were

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there, and, well, at the age of 15, I couldn't say I fully understand—fully understood what was going on at the–at the time. Only start to really grasp what was going on many years

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after–after that. But that was a huge event. We—we participated in some demonstration of protest, and the vice principal of our university actually also traveled to Beijing and persuaded us to go back

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to–to–to–to school, and we eventually did. So, we—we left Beijing in the end of May. It's either 30th or 31st of May. And of course, we never thought that a few days–a

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few days later, students would lost their life in Beijing. So, that was a huge shock when we heard the news. And—but again, at a young age, we—it's only in retrospect as we start to feel the gravity and the—or the

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facts. When you–when you were in China, in the–in the middle of the event, information was not–not free. And so only after I came to the US, I start to learn the facts about what–what happened in 1989.

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But–but in that case, I think that was the big event that shaped my life. And did the students that you went with, were they all, like, around your age? Some were—some were my own classmates, some were

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students senior to us. So, and th-there are many students from–from my university. So, we had a camp in the–in the Tiananmen Square.

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Do you know anybody who was, like, personally hurt during the protests? Well, I know people went to hunger strike, and for those who did the hung-hunger strike for quite a few days

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and their health was–was–was quite affected. I didn't know anybody in person who got shot in Tiananmen Square, but I–I heard from friends of mine

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that they know people, or the—their classmates was—was shot. Yeah, that's really scary. And yeah, it's also interesting to hear, like, it was such a split second decision.

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Like you guys just finished dinner and then just decided to go. [HP: Yeah.] Yeah, we–we–we didn't think too much [laughs]. And we, of course, didn't tell our parents.

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Otherwise, they probably would prevent us from going. Did you ever tell your parents, like, after the fact? Yeah, after I came back to the university, I–I told them. Yeah. Well, actually, a few days after my—we went back to the

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university, it's June–June 4th, so–so after that, the school closed. We were all sent back to–to home. I see. And what were their reactions when you told them?

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Of course, they–they were quite scared, but they were glad that I didn't get hurt or anything. And, well, they were still, they were quite frightened and told me that, "Don't do that if you encounter these kind of things in the future."

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Yeah. What was it like to—like, later when you came to the US, to kind of research more and learn more about Tiananmen Square, like, after it had happened? Well, that's certainly eye–eye opening. So many pictures, videos we couldn't see back in

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China, I was able to see the when I was in the–in the US, and also eyewitnesses and their testimonies, there were a lot–lot of these things. And in the US, we were able to

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see this, get the information from different angles, different–different people, and that was not possible in China, even–even today. So, today, the-those teenager, 20 year olds, they–they probably never heard about that event, even though it's not that

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long ago. And then, so kind of transitioning to your time in the US, could you, kind of, like, walk us through some cultural shocks that you recall? Because you kind of experienced, like, another huge life transition in

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1992 when you immigrated from China to Rochester, and you again immigrated alone. So could you kind of describe some difficult adjustments that you— Yeah, I don't–I don't think I had a difficult time in transitioning. I came to US in 1992.

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At the time, when China started to gathering wealth, eventually was admitted into WTO. So, it was a big transition time.

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But in 1992, things had not changed that much. For example, at the time, my parents' salary was, I would say, like, couple of thousand US dollars at the time. So–so, there is a huge disparity in the standard of living between China and

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the US at that time. So, when I came to the US, of course I felt I lived in a pretty comfortable life. And one of the culture shocks is growing up in China, we educated in–in the school i-in China,

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we were always told that the West, the capitalistic city—capitalistic society, people were all, all selfish. They only think about themselves, they are not like in the

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communist or socialist country, where the party will look after you, things like that. Well, I said that my parents, when I was young, my parents instilled in me this idea that you shouldn't trust the government blindly.

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But still, because of all these years of education, I didn't know what to expect in the–in the US, in the West. I thought there was some truth to–to what I was–what I learned in back in China. But that was not really the case.

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So, when I went to University of Rochester, when I walk on the campus, as a new guy (?) in a–in–a in a new place, I often—and I also—I had a terrible sense of direction.

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I often got–got lost on–on campus. But there are campus maps. So, whenever I stop in front of campus maps, the people nearby came to say, "Oh, did you–where do you want to go?

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I'll help you." So–so it's a–its a–it's a very small thing. But to–to me, that's really warm. And I felt that people in the–in the West are not what they–what they taught us back

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in–back in China. And what capitalism is, it's certainly not the evil that was depicted in–in our textbooks. And also, when I came to the US, one of the–one of the Chinese graduate student came to the airport to pick up—pick me up.

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And at the time, the internet–the internet in China was almost non-existent. So, my—before I came to the US, they—I wrote letters, not emails, the–the real letters [laughs] and

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telegram. This is how we–how we exchange information, how we contacted people. So–so, I never seen the picture of the guy who is going to pick me up at the airport. So, it was a little nervous when I

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landed in Rochester, and I didn't know whether the guy was here and what he looked like. But–but eventually we–we got connected, and he took me to his apartment. At the time, I didn't even had–had a place to–to

00:37:00.920 - 00:37:20.260

live. So, I lived on the couch of–of his apartment for a few days before I found the apartment myself with a few other new students. And so I didn't have a car for–for the first 2 or 3 years when I was in

00:37:20.310 - 00:37:35.480

Rochester, so I would rely on those senior students to take us to grocery shopping and other stuff, so people really take care of each other. That was a very fond memory.

00:37:36.430 - 00:37:54.260

That's my—from my graduate student life. Yeah, it's nice to hear that there were people there to kind of look after you and support you. [HP: Yeah.] If you could offer a piece of advice to other young students or young adults who plan to start a new life in a new country, what

00:37:54.260 - 00:38:12.090

would you tell them? Well to–to find helps, and also to, if you can, to help each other, to help other people. And of course nowadays, internet is everywhere,

00:38:14.020 - 00:38:33.430

and try to learn beforehand, what you–what you—the–the–the place you are going to move to. And so I think nowadays, it's much–much easier because we have globalization...Earth

00:38:37.730 - 00:38:52.650

is like a big, huge village. So, I–I–I think things became much–much–much easier. But on other hand, sometimes—people are hooked

00:38:52.980 - 00:39:14.520

in the internet, in the–in the virtual reality, and so the person-to-person connection was–was not really there. And that is something we–we should try to–try to avoid and, yeah.

00:39:14.700 - 00:39:28.970

Ma-make–make new friends, and—that's–that's–that's very important. Yeah. I think that's really good advice. So, when you moved here—I'm not sure how fluent you were in English, but did you have

00:39:28.970 - 00:39:45.900

any difficulties overcoming the language barrier? Certainly, there was a language barrier. And, in the–in the classroom, it was–it was not that I couldn't understand what my–my teachers,

00:39:46.470 - 00:40:07.630

my—what my professors said, particularly in–in these in the physics classes. Most of the terminologies are—I already knew about, so it's not difficult to–to understand the–the instructions, the–the–the—in the classes.

00:40:07.820 - 00:40:26.800

But the everyday conversation was very difficult. And also, in the US, different people have different accents. And it's it—sometimes, the people with accents could be quite difficult for–for–for me to–to understand.

00:40:26.860 - 00:40:48.310

So, it take time to–to, of course, to overcome this by–by reading, by–by watching TV, by–by talking to people. Yeah. My advice to—my advice to any newcomer to a new place with different language, is to try to mingle with the locals.

00:40:49.170 - 00:41:10.330

And I think the language barrier, there was a barrier, but it's not difficult to overcome if you proactively trying to immerse yourself in the–the—in the culture. I see. And how long would you say it felt for you to feel

00:41:10.330 - 00:41:23.920

comfortable in the US? I don't–I don't think I was ever felt uncomfortable. And of course, there's some language barriers.

00:41:25.480 - 00:41:44.750

And the first time I went to the restaurant, even–even to McDonald's, it's—it could be difficult for me to–to order what do I really want. So, but again, these–those things, it's not difficult

00:41:45.090 - 00:42:02.880

to–to overcome with—and, well, because of the language barrier or cultural difference, sometimes you could get embarrassed, but those are normal. And don't–don't take that too

00:42:02.920 - 00:42:23.790

seriously, you know, and things will certainly improve quite quickly. Yeah, for sure. So, after Rochester, you completed your postdoc at the University of Arizona, and then you came to Houston later. So, how would you compare these three cities in terms of diversity and their

00:42:23.830 - 00:42:41.480

Asian-American communities? Yeah, well, Houston, of course, is by far the most diversified city among–among the three. And so when I graduated from Rochester, we–we went to Arizona.

00:42:41.480 - 00:42:59.690

We actually drove out at kind of time—you know, my wife, she was pregnant with our first child, and–[laughs] and we drove our Nissan Sentra, but not–not big car. But we didn't have too much stuff [laughs] either.

00:43:01.600 - 00:43:19.840

And at the time, it's early 2000, and we didn't have GPS at–at the time, so we relied on the trip tickets from AAA to drove our Nissan Sentra from Rochester, New York, to Tucson, Arizona.

00:43:19.940 - 00:43:36.450

It was a three day–three day trip. But it was an in—it was an interesting–interesting trip. And Arizona, Tucson was actually very different from–from Rochester weather-wise and also culture-wise, because

00:43:39.250 - 00:44:00.370

it's not too far away from the Mexico border. So, there are more Hispanic community. So, we lived in Tucson for–for three and a half years, and a big event when I was a

00:44:00.410 - 00:44:17.320

postdoc in Tucson is, well, not just—of course, I did my—I think did well in my research. That's how I got my faculty position at–at Rice eventually. But another big event in our life was, we–we became

00:44:18.890 - 00:44:37.560

Christian, both me and my–my wife. So, after I got to Tucson, we–we joined, we went to a–to a student fellowship in the–in the University–University of—it's near–near the University of Arizona.

00:44:38.050 - 00:44:55.760

So, a lot of university students and some faculties were–were—was a member of that church. So, we–we went to there, start to—started our regular Friday night Bible study, and eventually

00:44:56.300 - 00:45:14.230

accepted what the Bible said was true, and became a Christian in—after, like, two–two years. So, that was a big change in my life. Nice. And would you also want to share how you met your wife?

00:45:16.000 - 00:45:32.420

Yeah. So, my wife was from Shanghai, so part of my family, my mom was originally from–from Shanghai, too. So, we were introduced to each other, and when—at the time, I was already in the US

00:45:32.610 - 00:45:47.360

and she was in Shanghai. She was a teacher in middle school. She was a tutor of–of a relative of mine. So, that relative kind of introduced us to each

00:45:48.430 - 00:46:10.400

other. And so at the time, we–we contacted each other through–through phones and emails, and–and of course also writing letters and read the letters. So–so, it's about

00:46:11.530 - 00:46:31.040

almost one year before I actually met my wife, my future wife, in–in person. But during that time, through through the phone calls and emails and letters, I–I felt that she's the right person for me.

00:46:32.580 - 00:46:49.380

So–so, when I flew back to–to China to–to meet her, we decided rather quickly that we–we found each other.

00:46:49.940 - 00:47:03.740

A-and so actually, after we met in person in just, like, one month–month after that, we–we got married. So it's a quick marriage. But fortunately, it worked well.

00:47:06.310 - 00:47:14.800

Yeah. I think y'all are both lovely people, and I think you balance each other out well, so good match [laughs]. Thank you [laughs]. So, moving on to Houston.

00:47:15.320 - 00:47:33.770

So, you moved here in 2003 to teach at Rice, and you started out first as an assistant professor and then gradually moved your way up to full professor in 2016. So, could you kind of describe what changes you've seen in the Rice physics department, Rice in general, and then also Houston over the past 20 years?

00:47:35.680 - 00:47:52.800

Well, for Rice, I cert-certainly see a lot of growth. When I was—when I first came to–to Rice, the undergrad population was 3000 and now it's over 4000. And the plan is to grow to

00:47:53.970 - 00:48:11.490

4800 in the next year or so. So, certainly, I see a lot of growth, a lot of new buildings during those years. And we in the physics department, we have a lot more new–new colleagues,

00:48:12.590 - 00:48:26.790

new faculty members, instructors. And I–I think those are—right now, Rice is in a very exciting time. We had a new set of administrative

00:48:27.200 - 00:48:46.010

teams and they are very keen on research, so they put a lot of resources into—in-into research. I think we are right. Our department and our w-whole university are moving in the–in the

00:48:46.070 - 00:49:02.170

right dire-direction. So, I'm quite excited about the–about the future of–of the university. And I think for the city, I–I really like–like the city. Well, the summer weather could be a little too–too hot and humid, but

00:49:03.430 - 00:49:17.510

other than that, it's—well, it's–it's one of the most diversified cities in the–in the US. Different–different cultures and all kinds of cuisines.

00:49:19.080 - 00:49:37.200

There's a big Asian community. And so it has all the conveniences of–of a big city, but the cost of living is–is relatively low. So, it's a good place to–to raise a–raise a family.

00:49:41.570 - 00:49:57.090

So yeah, I–I think I really enjoy living–living in Houston and working–working at Rice. Yeah, for sure. Houston's a great city. Could you walk us through a day in your life as a physics professor?

00:49:59.270 - 00:50:19.970

So, a typical day, I would came to campus maybe around—before–before eight. Well, when my kids was young, when I had to send them to–to school, I send them to school like 7,

00:50:20.330 - 00:50:37.890

around 7 or 7:30, then I came directly to–to campus, to my–to my office. Most of the time, I would spend time on research. And the teaching load is one course per semester. So, each course is three hours.

00:50:38.270 - 00:50:53.250

You can either take three day to teach your course or two days, as–as–as you know. So, the time to spend in the classroom was not—it's just three hours per–per week.

00:50:53.350 - 00:51:10.190

But of course, you need to prepare the–the–the classes, particularly if–if there's a new course that you're–you're teaching for the fir—for the first time. I had to spend quite–quite a lot of time preparing the course.

00:51:10.230 - 00:51:25.790

One–one hour lecture, I probably need to spend three or four hours preparing for that, maybe even more. But I think it's all–all–all worth it. I–I–I enjoy my–my teaching, to interact with the

00:51:26.330 - 00:51:46.130

students. And so other than teaching, so, most of the time I spent on research, interacting with my own grad students. Sometimes I also had undergrad students working–working with me on some research project. And also, you have to do

00:51:46.240 - 00:52:02.060

some service, attending committee meetings and things like that. And I'm a–I'm a theorist. I don't have a experim-experimental lab, so my office is basically my–my–my lab.

00:52:02.060 - 00:52:18.910

I–I do theoretical research. So, sometimes we derive equations using pens and paper. Sometimes we do computer simulation. But of course, now-nowadays, I myself don't really writing computer

00:52:18.910 - 00:52:32.690

codes, I rely on my–my–my students. I discuss with them quite–quite often. So, these are typical things we do as a faculty member.

00:52:32.690 - 00:52:49.270

Nice. Sounds like— And of course, talk–talk to your colleagues and go to conferences and workshops. These are the typical life as a faculty, as a re-researcher. Nice. And if you had to kind of explain your current research interests to a

00:52:49.380 - 00:53:11.940

five-year-old, what would you tell them [laughs]? So–so, stuff are made out of—big stuff are made out of small stuff, and stuff are made out of molecules and atoms.

00:53:13.550 - 00:53:30.750

So, what—so, the field of–of my—it's a subfield of physics. Physics is also very broad, very general. But my–my subfield within physics is called A.M.O., Atomic Molecular and Optical physics.

00:53:31.550 - 00:53:52.450

So, what we do is to—we study the–the properties of atoms and–and the molecules, basically. But we—first, we need to tame these small particles. We want to isolate them from the environment, and we

00:53:52.450 - 00:54:07.520

want to cool them down. And–and the–the reason we want to cool them down is if they are hot, there are random thermal motions, like the molecule in–in–in this room.

00:54:07.640 - 00:54:30.890

It's in the room temperature, and they are moving around with the speed of a-a-a jet airplane, average speed, and so, many—s-so, at high temperature, at room temperature, the–the properties of these tiny particles are dominated by these random thermal motion.

00:54:31.420 - 00:54:44.910

They collide with each other all the time. So, the fundamental—the intrinsic properties of these little particles is difficult to–to–to understand. So–so, what people do is to

00:54:47.040 - 00:55:05.310

cool them down and slow–slow them down, and also catch them in some kind of trap to isolate them, and–and so we have very—all kinds of advanced techniques to–to do these kind of things.

00:55:06.090 - 00:55:26.660

And so I—so, when we successfully cool them down and trap them, then the–the fundamental quantum properties of these little particles will–will show up. And so that's what we are interested

00:55:27.110 - 00:55:45.690

in, to–to–to understand the–the–the quantum mechanical properties of these atoms, individual atoms, and also how the—how they behave when an ensemble of these little particles were together, interacting with each other. And these–these interactions

00:55:47.720 - 00:56:08.830

give rise to a variety of interesting properties and gave us this wonderful–wonderful nature. That's really cool, thank you for explaining it so clearly. I think as a bonding activity, you should watch Frozen, the Frozen movies

00:56:09.180 - 00:56:12.950

with your—[HP: I think I–I–] I saw that. Yeah, I have watched it. [EM laughs] Did you like them?

00:56:13.720 - 00:56:32.390

Yes. [EM laughs] So yeah, I watched quite a—animation movies when I—so when—I have two–two children, when–when they were young, we often go watch movies together, and yeah–yeah. We wa-we watched a lot of animation movies.

00:56:33.190 - 00:56:47.040

Disney movies. Nice. Do you have a favorite one that your family watched? Well, I like The Monster Incorporated, I think the Pixar movie.

00:56:48.180 - 00:57:07.240

Hmm. I don't think I know that one, but I'll check it out. [laughs] So, going back to kind of your career as an educator, in your opinion, what is the most important trait an educator or a mentor should have? I think the mentor really should

00:57:10.120 - 00:57:30.510

be interested in–in the mentees, in the students. And you shouldn't see them as–as your subordinates that you want them to work for you to–to–to produce a paper,

00:57:30.510 - 00:57:45.460

produce res-results. You should see them as human beings, as your–as your colleague. And you're interested in their–their–their life. Not just–not just in their research.

00:57:45.580 - 00:58:06.450

Of course, that is a big part of that, but also the–the well-being of–of–of the person, and treat them as equals. And so I–I–I think these are the most important things.

00:58:06.510 - 00:58:22.690

I try to treat my students as–as my equals. And many of them, after graduation, we became friends. We became lifelong friends. And I think that–that is also one of the most satisfying things

00:58:23.410 - 00:58:43.590

as a professor. You pass your knowledge to–to these young students and you see them grow up to become useful person to–to the society, and y-you became friends.

00:58:44.090 - 00:59:00.150

You visit them when you get a chance, yeah. So, right now I'm in California visiting my parents, but I also have a couple of students, former students, living here. So, we always, whene-whenever I

00:59:00.200 - 00:59:19.480

visit Bay Area, I come to see them. Yeah, it must be really nice to see them and connect with them again. [HP: Yeah.] So, as an educator and mentor yourself, how do you think your teaching style has kind of evolved through the years?

00:59:23.410 - 00:59:42.060

So, when I—so, in–in–in the classroom, when I teach a course, I try to incorporate the–the most in—the–the–the–the current understanding of the subject,

00:59:42.760 - 01:00:01.570

and also the current advances in either theory or experiment. So, put—so, sometimes–sometimes you might feel that the physics is about the theory, the laws, expression, the equations that were invented a long time, long, long time ago.

01:00:02.560 - 01:00:22.300

But these equations had–have connections to–to today's events in society, to today's events. So, I try to convey these current ideas to–to my students

01:00:24.340 - 01:00:40.700

and to incorporate–incorporate the course content and current research. I think these are important, so that the students know that this–this is not something abstract.

01:00:41.120 - 01:01:03.130

They learn that the equation is not just something completely abstract, and it has concrete consequences, and so yeah, to–to get them interested in–in the research. And so when I—sometimes when I teach a

01:01:03.130 - 01:01:16.490

undergrad class, this is how I get some of the–1 or 2 students interested in my own research. Then I take them as a–a research intern or even supervise their senior thesis.

01:01:19.740 - 01:01:34.750

And do you remember what it felt like to stand in front of a lecture hall for the very first time? Oh, it–it–it's certainly—when I was a graduate student, I of course did TAs, and sometimes I would have to do the recitation

01:01:35.620 - 01:01:54.480

(?). And I would say that the first time, maybe–maybe a few times when I did that, I was quite–quite terrible. And of course one–one–one big obstacle was–was the language barrier.

01:01:55.820 - 01:02:14.400

I—at the time, I could understand pretty well when–when we discussed physics, but to speak that out, that's another level of difficulty. So, it's—even though I—the–the—so, during the

01:02:14.480 - 01:02:33.220

recitation I had to explain to the students their homework problems. Of course, I–I–I knew how to do these homework problems, but it's difficult for me to–to show them the–the–the steps and the ideas behind–behind the derivation.

01:02:34.790 - 01:02:55.710

And that is something I had to learn gradually. And when I became a–a faculty member as assistant professor, when I really—for the first time, I had to teach a whole class, that's another–another big jump. Well, but I–I think our

01:02:55.710 - 01:03:15.200

department had did—had this—well, I–I think the first class I–I taught, I co-taught with a senior–senior colleague of mine. And that was very nice, because I had someone to–to rely on and also observe him,

01:03:16.080 - 01:03:36.980

how he teach. And that was a big help. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely really inspirational to see how far you've come. If you could go back in time and have a conversation with your younger self who was just kind of starting out teaching, either as a TA or just starting, what would you

01:03:36.980 - 01:03:57.540

want to tell them? So the TA, I don't think there are a lot of things I could–I could improve on. And because of the language barrier, I think I–I was a little

01:03:57.610 - 01:04:15.080

too shy to interact with the students. And those are things that if I had a chance to go back–to go back time, I–I would persuade myself to–to–to interact with the students

01:04:16.470 - 01:04:36.650

more. And yeah, many things is just to overcome your own–your own fear. And–and I think in my, again, in–in–in my teaching, I also try to put on

01:04:36.650 - 01:04:58.950

the shoes of my students and—do—try to, you know, try to understand what is–what is the challenging things, what—so,

01:04:59.810 - 01:05:20.350

what subject area is most challenging, and what is most difficult, and to–to see things from their perspective. Yeah, I–I think those are the things I would–I would tell the younger self.

01:05:23.090 - 01:05:38.100

Yeah, I definitely think putting yourself in, like, a student's shoes is a really important quality to have. Yeah. So, moving on to our last segment of the interview, which is kind of more focused on identity, I just wanted to ask, how would you identify yourself?

01:05:38.410 - 01:05:52.450

And this can be in terms of your ethnicity, religion, core values, or anything else that you would want to share. Well, the ethnicity, I–I–I definitely think I'm an Asian–Asian American.

01:05:52.850 - 01:06:16.110

I became a US citizen after I came to Rice, I think in maybe around 2010, and I became a Christian in 2002. So, all these things are part of my identity.

01:06:19.540 - 01:06:37.880

And of course, I'm a researcher, a physicist, a mentor, a teacher. So, I have to balance my roles in these—balance my-myself in all–all–all these different roles, and of course also as a hus—as a husband,

01:06:39.340 - 01:06:57.380

as a parent. And so, to have a balanced life is–is important. And my family, my career, of course, my–my church, my religion, they're all—these are all

01:06:57.380 - 01:07:14.950

important part of–of my life and a part of my identity. And what are some of your current hobbies and interests outside of your career? Oh, my hobbies: badminton is a big

01:07:15.410 - 01:07:31.850

hobby of mine. I started to play badminton when I was pretty young, back in China, and in–in Rochester when I was a graduate student. We had a informal badminton club. So, as—I–I played, a-at the time, quite regularly.

01:07:34.340 - 01:07:50.140

But eventually I stopped doing that. Maybe—I–I don't know, I forgot exactly why. But yeah–yeah, that's before I graduate from Rochester. May–maybe my–my friends, they–they graduated and I couldn't find partners

01:07:50.390 - 01:08:03.680

to play. So, I s—then I graduated from Rochester, went to Arizona as a postdoc. And during those time, I didn't play badminton at all, and came to Rice. The first few years I didn't play, either.

01:08:03.800 - 01:08:19.190

Then my student actually told me that there was a—there is a badminton club at–at Rice. So, I picked that up right before the pandemic, and now I play pretty regularly.

01:08:19.430 - 01:08:36.100

And that's my big hobby. Nice, that sounds fun. I remember Helen and I looked through the window once, and saw—[laughter]. I also wanted to ask, how often do you visit China and are you planning any upcoming trips there?

01:08:37.830 - 01:08:54.520

So, I typically visited China once a year before the pandemic. But during–during the last few years, during the pandemic, I didn't go–go back to China. So, I had some research collaborators in–in USTC

01:08:55.590 - 01:09:13.400

and al-also other places. And of course, I have a lot of family and friends in–in China. So, now the pandemic is essentially over, so, I'm planning to

01:09:14.630 - 01:09:30.970

go to China again, but maybe later–later this year. Nice, very exciting. Are you planning to go with your family or just by yourself? That–that depends. And of course, now my kids are all grown up, so they'll have their own

01:09:31.080 - 01:09:46.170

plans, [laughs] I couldn't control them. And my wife teaches in the elementary school, so she also had summer breaks and, you know, a long summer break. So, sometimes, we—before the pandemic, sometimes we–we–we go

01:09:46.610 - 01:10:12.540

back to China together, or we have some overlapping time back in China. So, of course always–always [unintelligible]. I'm also curious to know, what is the most important thing you've learned as a parent? Yeah, I think it's similar to what my

01:10:12.570 - 01:10:29.790

parents taught me and to–to give them freedom to–to let them choose. Of course, the parent, we have the obligation to provide guidance. But the–the guidance I–I gave them are rather

01:10:31.520 - 01:10:55.360

general, and I hopefully grew up to become honest person, upright person. So, both my kids, they grew up in the–in the—in–in–in the church. And other than that, as—for example, for what

01:10:55.650 - 01:11:12.960

kind of career they want to–to–to have, I will leave that to themselves. I can provide some advice, but I don't force them. And particularly when they were young, spend time–spend time with them.

01:11:15.530 - 01:11:35.910

Some people told me that, "As a professor, you–you shouldn't waste your time driving your kids here and there." But I think those are valuable times to spend time with–with the–with the—with your young children and talk to them and play

01:11:37.300 - 01:11:58.220

with them, and just spend quality time with them. And I think these–well, this definitely will take some time o-off your research or other–other things, but they are definitely worthwhile. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, family comes first.

01:11:59.920 - 01:12:16.650

So, do you have any funny, like, stories about Helen or Henry that you want to share? [Laughs] Yeah. I think I...there are quite a few I would–I would say.

01:12:18.980 - 01:12:34.890

And they are quite different. And when you have more than one–one kids, you can see how different they are. It's always interesting to–to observe that. Helen was qu-quite independent,

01:12:36.370 - 01:12:49.030

even when she was very–very little. She tried to do things by herself. Yeah. Henry, on the other hand, is–is quite different.

01:12:49.630 - 01:13:08.210

Helen started to–to walk and talk at quite early age, before–before one, I think. And Henry, on the o-other h-hand–on the other hand, he didn't really speak complete sentences until he

01:13:08.320 - 01:13:22.630

was, like, three or so. [laughs]. So, my–my parents got a little worried about him, [laughs] but–but I think he turned out to be okay.

01:13:23.610 - 01:13:43.020

And they have very different personalities, and that's—for example, Henry when he–he liked to played with cars and dinosaurs and [unintelligible]. And at night, he

01:13:43.100 - 01:13:58.870

always put them in line, and he even turned these cars upside down, say, "They also need to sleep." [laughs] So, these are all fond memories. And of course, technology advanced, and we had—we put

01:13:59.880 - 01:14:14.650

their—we put their lives on–on–on videos. So, we watching those videos every now and then, and get good laugh out of that, yeah. So, yeah, when your parents ask you to take a picture or take a video, don't–don't–don't

01:14:14.650 - 01:14:28.250

refuse. Yeah, I'm–I'm sure it's nice to look back on those memories. [HP: Yeah.] Well, that's all the questions I have prepared. Do you have any other points that you'd like to add?

01:14:30.660 - 01:14:45.470

Well, not–not–not really. That's okay. Well, thank you so much for this interview and for sharing your experiences–experiences with me. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to do this.

01:14:46.340 - 01:14:54.940

Oh, thank you for doing this. And of course, thank you for being such a good friend to–to Helen [laughs]. Of course [laughs]. Yeah, have a great rest of your day and your week. Enjoy California.

01:14:54.940 - 01:15:08.540

Okay. We'll be back next week. All right. Bye bye. Thank you. Bye bye. All right, so today is Wednesday, June 21st, 2023.

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We're back here today to talk a bit more in depth about Dr. Pu's experience during the Tiananmen Square protests in 1989, and this follow-up segment will be added to the end of yesterday's interview. So, thank you so much for joining me here again today.

01:15:23.550 - 01:15:38.170

And to start off—[HP: You're welcome.] Thank you. To start off, you mentioned yesterday that the students in Beijing started to protest in April of 1989. When did you yourself first sort of feel tension start to rise

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around you? Or when did you start to hear students at USTC specifically start talking about protesting? Yeah, I think it'd be probably in mid or late April.

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Some students in–in my campus s-started to organize themselves and tried to support the students in–in Beijing, and they even set up some tents on–on–on campus.

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And also, several students went on–on hunger strike. And so I–I think it–it started in April o-of 1989. And starting around that time, some students start to–start to go to Beijing themselves, and that's

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why eventually we, myself and a few of my classmates, decided to also go to Beijing sometime in–in May. And th-there are some students that at the time, already c—went to Beijing and came back, and told us what-what-what's happening in Beijing, so we got

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intrigued and decided to go to see ourselves. Yeah, I remember yesterday you said you and, like, 14 or 15 other classmates took a train from USTC to Tiananmen Square. Do you remember which day that you arrived?

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I–I don't remember exactly the date, but it should be May twenty-something. Yeah. And then when you—

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We–we spent there for 4 or 5 days and then came back on the 30th or 31st of May. I see, okay. And then when you first arrived in Tiananmen Square, could you kind of describe what was going through your mind or, like, what emotions you were

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feeling? Yeah, it's–it's my first time in Beijing, or–or in Tiananmen Square, and there are a lot of students. So, we arrived there, it's the middle of night.

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And—but we were so excited, we didn't feel any—well, so, we were excited and didn't—weren't—were not tired, you know. Even though we are—it was a pretty long train journey, because we had to transfer trains [unintelligible] somewhere else.

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And—but it was fairly well-organized and th-there are s-students and people there to maintain the–the order, and we were guided to a place to rest. And then we were told that the different universities set

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up their camps and tents on the—on–on the square, and we found our—the USTC camp, and so we went—we–we wal—we walked around, even though it's midnight and people doing impromptu speak–speaking.

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It was—you know, protests and–and this kind of thing were not common in–in China, and most of these were not allowed, illegal. So, it was my first experience to–to see these kind of things. All very new, all very exciting.

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Yeah. What was the protesting itself like? Like, what did it feel like to participate in that? Well, it's–it's quite peaceful. I–I think I eventually, I participated in a couple

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of a–a couple of them. So, we just started s-somewhere and started walking towards places. I—s-since I didn't know Beijing well–well, I–I just follow the crowd [laughs], and people were chanting slogans, and there

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were–there were banners. It–it was mostly anti-corruption and—and, you know, requesting more democracy, more openness to the society. For those, like, 4 or 5 days that you were there, do you remember how many students

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in total there were, like, approximately? Oh, total must be...I think it could be around close to a million people there. They may not all be students, but I remember, in one of the protests, one of the

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biggest protests, they–they claim it's one million people, but I don't know. Although it may be a little bit exaggerated, but not by too much, I guess. And did everybody stay within Tiananmen Square, like, within the camps? Well, for the protesting, we—I think we started

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from Tiananmen Square and then we went to other places. Yeah. And also during those 4, 4 to 5 days, how did you guys get, like, the basic necessities like food and water?

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Like, was that provided for you? [HP: There was—] Did people bring them? There was a–a–a grad school campus named U-USTC graduate school campus in–in–in Beijing.

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So–so, that was like our ba–our base. We could go there. I think we slept over there, so—and sometimes we went to the

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restaurants to buy our own–own food, and sometimes people would provide food for—and drink, food and drink for–for us. Yeah. It's–it's been–it's been a while, so I do—I don't remember all the details, but...

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No worries. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So, do you remember how long each protest was, like, as you walked out of Tiananmen Square? I think it'll be, like, a few–a few hours.

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And...yeah, I–I probably didn't finish the–the whole protest because I—maybe I got tired. [laughs] But it-it's a few hours. I see. And then were there multiple protests a day, or just one a day? The big ones were–were well-organized, and it's just the one–one a day.

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I see, okay. And then you also mentioned that the vice principal of USTC actually traveled to Beijing to try to convince you guys to go back to school. [HP: Yeah.] So, once you arrived back at USTC, what did the atmosphere feel like among the student population?

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Like, was everybody talking about the protests and it did—did it feel kind of tense? Yeah, at the time, people certainly talked about it quite a lot. And actually, back in the—in–in USTC, we were

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debating whether we should, you know, protest against our own school and decide to stop classes to show support for the students in Beijing. But eventually, our teachers

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convinced us that we should continue our class, because supporting students in Beijing doesn't mean we have to stop education. So, we went back to classes, and that, of course, all changed in June–June 4th, you know, when the killing started on–on–on Tiananmen Square

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in—and in other places in Beijing. So, you know, when news spread out pretty quickly, and all our teachers also decided that class should–should be stopped, and we were sent back to–to our homes.

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I see. And how did the administration make that announcement? I think...Well, I couldn't remember what—wha-what–what was being done, but—so each class has had like

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a–had like a–a–a teacher or faculty member who–it-it's like the magister of it—at Rice, but it's not for the–the—for the–for the residential colleges. For each–each class, we had something–something like that.

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And basically, he or she was responsible for making all these announcements. And we were–we were just told that our semester en-ended right there, and you just go back home.

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I see. So, the next time you came back to campus, it was next semester. That's right. Yeah. Okay. And then, I was also wondering, among the, like, 14 or 15 students you went with, or, like, among other USTC students that were at the protest,

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do you ever still, like, keep in contact with them or, like, talk about this with them? Well, we—yeah, some of them—well, they were my classmates, most of them. And so we–we–we do keep contact

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with each other, but I wouldn't say we talked about 1989 very, you know, very often. But at–at–at Rice, I actually met–met a colleague of mine who is in business school.

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He's–he was also in college at the time, in 1989. He–he was in the University of Beijing. And he–he–he himself participated in–in the hunger strikes, and one of—he told me that one of his classmates was dead

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in Tiananmen Square. Yeah, I think Helen mentioned that [HP: Okay.] and I think we-we're going to interview him later. [HP: Okay. [laughs]] So yeah, we can probably get into that as well.

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Yeah. So, my last question would be that you mentioned that the information about the protest was very restricted or limited in China, so you didn't really get the full context until you came to the US, and then you were able to research what had actually happened. So, before coming to the US, do you remember what exactly the information

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was that you were able to gain and, like, how accurate it was? Well, in fact, in the–in the seme—in the semester following that summer, so it's in fall 1989, we went back to campus. And we had to

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spend, I think, 2 or 3 weeks basically, for–for some kind of—I don't like the word brain-brainwashing, but it's basically it. So, it's like a intense—intense

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classes to give the government's view on what happened in April and May of–of that year. And of course, the movement was deemed anti-society, anti-revolutionary, and anti-party, and

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the government's decision to crack down the movement was–was praised, and so we had to go through this–this course, and basically had–had to consent

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in order to stay in school. So–so, every student went through that. And in some school, I–I think in Peking University, for instance, the student went through one year of what is called

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"training" too. And in–in that sense, we–we were not that unlucky, you know. We—all we need to do is two–two weeks of–of–of this–this class.

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And after that, so 1989 and June 4th essentially became a taboo in–in–in China, and the government certainly want to erase the whole memory of–of–of that event. And s-so, you know, ev-every year ar-around June 4th,

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the–the cybersecurity became very tight, and anything that is remotely resembling 1989, June 4th, were all censored. And–and yeah–yeah, many young—the–the–the younger

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generation grew up without knowing—with-without knowing the true history or the—sometimes they even never heard about that if their parents didn't tell them. Wow. Yeah, I–I had no idea that they had, like, the–the brainwashing classes

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afterwards. Yeah. Did your parents actually tell you something about that event to you? Not really. I talked to them about it yesterday, [HP laughs] and my mom didn't

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protest, but I think my dad attended some protests in Shanghai. [HP: Oh, okay.] But ne-neither of them went to Beijing to protest. So, they were in Shanghai at the time? Yeah.

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Were they in college? Yes, at Fudan, yeah. Oh, okay. But for the, like, the brainwashing classes, about how many students do you think, like,

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actually believed what was being taught? That's hard to say. We don—I-I don't think we discussed among ourselves.

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Basically, most–most students just decide to—life have to go on, and we just need to finish our–finish our college and, you know, restart our life. I see. So there wasn't really any, like, pushback against these classes?

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Well, I don't th—maybe push back in private, but–but the obstacle was–was too significant for–for–for us to–to push back. I see. I guess I'm also wondering, do you ever talk to, like, Helen or

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Henry about these experiences? Oh, yeah. Helen was quite interested in–in–in these kind of things, and–and so–so we actually discussed quite–quite a lot. I see. So, I guess that brings us to the end of our follow up interview.

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But do you have anything else that you want to add about Tiananmen Square or any other topics that we maybe didn't cover? Well, if you are interested, you can—I–I–I think it's not difficult to search for some documentary or eyewitness testimonies about this in–in–in the

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West. And I–I think it's a—it's an important, you know, event in–in–in China and probably also has some ramifications in the whole world, so it's important for us to–to remember what–what exactly happened. And that-that's also why I discussed this

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with–with my–my children, and so they could also learn. Right. Yeah, I think I'm going to go look for some doc-documentaries [HP: Okay. Awesome.] after this just to learn more about it. [HP: Great.] All right.

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Thank you so much for meeting with me a second time. Yeah, I really appreciate it, and I think what you shared is going to be really valuable for people to learn more about it. Yeah. Thank you so much.

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Alright. Thank you. Have a great rest of your day. Okay. Bye bye. You too. Bye bye.