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Today is Wednesday, August 16th, 2023. I am Jessica Suh, and I'll be interviewing Dr. Haiyang Li for the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. So, to first start off, could you just introduce yourself––tell us

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where and when you were born? So, my name is Haiyang Li. I'm currently a–a professor in the Jones business school at Rice University. I grew up in mainland China.

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My hometown is a very small city called Tanghe in Henan province, which is the central part of China. So I went to college in Beijing and then graduate program in Hong Kong, and I moved to Texas in 2001.

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So my first job was in Texas A&M in the managing department as an assistant professor, and then I moved to Rice in 2005. So I have been at Rice for 18 years. Okay, that's a lot. So, to kind of go

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into, like, how your early life was or how growing up was in China, what was, like, the culture of your household when you were growing up? So, you know, I lived––my hometown is very small, and I grew up in a village in the––in my hometown.

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And, you know, we––I have family. It's like a traditional Chinese family. What I remember, you know, my grandma, my parents, I have four siblings. So, you know, the whole,

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you know, family environment is quite open. One reason was my dad worked—–you know, he's not like a, you know, traditional farmer. He work for a company in the city. So that's why, you know, we got a lot of exposure to

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kind of, you know, urban life, if we call it, when I was little. It's very different from traditional, like, you know, farmer's family or in the rural area. So we are quite open and–and my dad, you know,

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trying to, you know, encourage us to–to know outside, to travel a little bit, not far away, but at least know what's going on outside of the village or the, you know, small town, wherein I grew up.

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Wait, so you said you had four siblings? Yeah, I have three big sisters and one little brother. So I'm the–the–the fourth one [JS: I see.] in the siblings, yeah.

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Were you, like, pretty close to them growing up? Yeah. I-I did. You know–you know, they're–they're still in China and I went back quite often before pandemic, almost, you know, 2 or 3 times a year I went back to China.

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And whenever I'm in China, I'm trying to find, you know, time to visit them. And, you know, we have very close relationship indeed. Yeah, that's very sweet to hear.

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[HL: Yeah.] What, like, kind of values did your parents prioritize when they're raising you all? Well, you know, again, in the rural area, I don't particularly see, you know, something, you know, like a formal values.

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You know, we appreciate––but, you know, parents, you know, did–did encourage us to work hard to be, you know, a nice person and, you know, to–to be open minded. I think these are something, you know, parents are never trying to set up,

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you know, a particular rule, you know what you can do, what you cannot do, or force us to do anything we don't want to. And they just want, you know, do whatever you feel comfortable, is right. You know, you got to work hard and,

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you know, achieve your goal. And so that––I think I'm, you know, compared to many, I believe many people, you know, during that time period in that kind of environment, I think my family is very relatively

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open and kind of democratic rather than, you know, traditional Chinese family, you know, is very you know, parents have a lot of authority. That's not our family. We are very open. And, you know, we can talk to parents

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very openly and honestly. I never feel, you know, uncomfortable to do this. So that's something I feel, you know, we are a little bit different from other families during that time in that kind of environment,

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I would say. Right. So, what did you like to do when you were younger? So, like, did you have a lot of, like, hobbies if you weren't studying or going to school?

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So, you know, again, you know, at that time, resources are very limited. And, you know, the––you know, China at that time, this is back in 1970s.

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I was born in 1970, and, you know, there are not many things we can do. But, you know, I think, you know, in the rural area, indeed, you know, there are huge space. You know, neighbors are very close.

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And, you know, I play with my kind of friends in the village, and we went to school together. So, you know, when I was in the fifth grade, we have to go to another village to go to, you know, to attend the school.

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So, you know, it's a–it's a––I won't say very long, but it's a quite a distance to walk from my home to, you know, to the school which was in the other college—you know, village. So, you know, we had a very close relationship and we,

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you know, swim in the–in the–in the pond. There's no swimming pool, and sometimes we try to, you know, catch frogs, you know, go to, you know, the field to do some-something, you know, kids would like to do.

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And we had a lot of fun when I, you know, recall my childhood life, I had a lot of happiness. And I still think, you know, appreciate that kind of environment even though, you know, it's not well developed and there are not

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many, you know, things we can do. Occasionally, you know, there will be a film played, you know, manually played by somebody. It's a very old fashioned way.

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Basically, you know, yo––they play the, you know, like a movie in one village. You know, people from all other villages will–will come and, you know, it's–it's a big–big gathering.

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And everybody, you know, was very excited about, you know, watching a movie that time because it's not very often. There's no cinema. There's no theater. We just, you know, whenever somebody available,

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they would brought a film and play the movie. So that's also something, you know, very, very exciting moment when I remember when I was little. Right. Well, that sounds like a fun time.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you––were there any, like, particular classes or subjects that you're interested in? Like, starting when you were young? You know, I cannot recall.

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You know, it seems, you know, I enjoy, you know, studying and, you know, relatively perform quite well in the–in the class–in the other classes. I don't feel particularly in-interested––any more interest in something than others but I did remember,

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you know, when I was in, like, middle school, my math was not that good. For some reason, pretty, you know, pretty bad to some extent. But later on, you know, I got some help from my

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nephew, and he was, you know, older than me. He was in high school, so he was able to help me. And when I went to high school, indeed, my math became extremely good. So it kind of from one extreme to another extreme.

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So indeed, that helped me a lot to eventually when I was able to get to a top college in China because you know, I perform very well. I almost got a full, you know, the China–China's entry exam is very, very, very competitive and very hard.

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And I almost got a full score for–for math [JS: Oh wow.] in that year, and that year the question a very, very difficult and so that's why I'm very proud when, you know, how good I was at that time.

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Yeah. So that's. I'm glad you had a good support system there, then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, he helped me a lot when I was in middle

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school. I was struggling about my math and it––for some reason, I just couldn't get it. But when I was in high school, suddenly I think there's something very interesting and, you know, I knew how to do it.

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Regardless of how difficult the question is, I always can figure out and figure out the best way to solve the problem. So, I feel very proud of what I have done, what I was able to do. Right.

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Yeah. Yeah. So, when you went into college then how did you choose your major? Or, like, were you very confident of your major and––or were you also, like, thinking about other paths.

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You know–you know, my kids, they all––my son just went to college this–this week, and my daughter already graduated college. Compared to what they have done to prepare for college, I would say I did nothing.

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And––because I didn't have knowledge about what––I know, I knew I should go to college because, you know, without going to college, you know, you won't have any future. You cannot find a job.

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You have to stay in the rural area. But what exactly, you know, college mean to me? I have no clue. And to be honest, I think the school––I don't think the school has provided any much information like orientation information

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session for students. I just heard from–from a senior student, you know, who went to where and, you know, how good is the school? You know, the–the schools are, that kind of information I got. And I didn't know what a major I should choose.

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And this is another, you know, kind of a, you know, my–my nephew and he was senior to me. He went to college and he came, you know, maybe you should choose the economics. Okay. I had no clue what exactly economics mean to

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me. And it's–it's completely different world. So I was––to be honest, I was not prepared at all for–for college, so I just don't know what to do. So basically he gave me a choice.

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Okay, let me do it. And luckily, you know, I got admitted by, you know, the–the my first choice of the college and whatever major they gave to me, you know, it doesn't matter. Just, you know, going to college is more important than whatever major needed.

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I don't have choices or I don't feel I have choices. Okay. I see. [HL: Yeah.] Were there a lot of, like, extracurriculars or other activities that you participated in while during your undergraduate years?

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Well, we, you know, I think the school, you know, I went to Beijing, Renmin University of China. I think the school, they did have a lot of, you know, things something like clubs, you know–you know,

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I participate and, you know, the early, I would say the first or second years is a lot of coursework. And also it took me a while, you know, to transit from a high school mindset to college mindset.

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And to be honest, that transition, you know, was a little bit painful because sometimes you feel you got lost, you don't know what to do and you think you are excellent student. But when you're in a very competitive environment,

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you are not excellent anymore or you don't feel you are excellent. So it's kind of, you know, many students even here, I think they experience the same thing. So it took a while for me to, you know, to know how, you know, this is something I need to do or I

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need to, you know, not only, you know, work on the coursework, but also need to do some, you know, other things, you know, play soccer, you know, trying to learn to play a–a guitar. So all these things make, you know, make me,

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you know, I think the–the college life was pretty–pretty rich, even though, you know, it took a while to figure out what to do and how to do it. Yeah, yeah. There's definitely, like, a learning curve when you enter into

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[HL: Absolutely.] college, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Were there any, like, particular mentors or professors who kind of stood out and, like, influenced your life during this

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period? Well, you know. You know, when I was in college, at least, you know, we have some–some you know––he also a professor in the class, like a class advisor.

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Okay. So, he is quite young. And at that time, I remember, he was––his son was like a 2 or 3 years old. So, you know, very, very young. And he is also a, you know, a profes––not a profes––you know,

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a title like a senior lecturer or something, you know, in–in–in our department, economic department. And he, you know, spent a lot of time with, you know, with us and trying to––whatever we have some,

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you know, difficulties, challenges, some questions, we can reach out to him. And I would say, you know–you know somebody who changed me a little bit?

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No, not a little bit. Kind of a help me to change my kind of trajectory when I was in the senior year and I was thinking what to do, you know, and looking for a job or going to graduate school. So that time, you know, for some reason I was able to take

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an elective. Marketing management. And this in–in 19–1990. And marketing is–is a very, very foreign subject or discipline.

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Most of people never heard of it, but I thought it was something very interesting, you know? It is very different from economics that I was familiar with. So I went to that, you know, elective and they had a textbook. And indeed, before I started the first class,

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I already finished the textbook because it's just so interesting. I thought, you know, I just cannot stop, you know, reading it. So then I talked to the, you know, the professor who taught that class and said,

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you know, did you––because that's from a different department, not from our department. I said, did you have a graduate program which can, you know, I can explore? So yeah, we did have. But each year for that kind of a major,

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marketing major, they only admitted two students. So I said, okay, let me–let me try it because it's so interesting. So that's why, you know, particularly that, you know, because of that course elective, which, you know, opened a new kind of

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window for me. So, you know, I won't go this direction. So–so that's why I still stay in [unintelligible], but I went to a different department for my master's program. So that's eventually from marketing and then move to strategy.

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So, you know, I started jumping into business school rather than in economics, even though, you know, I think the economics training was still very important for whatever I'm doing today. Okay. And then from there, what made you want to,

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like, continue on to pursue a PhD as well? So I think that's a, you know, there's a path dependent there. So, you know, I was in a master's program and I think very good––at that time, you know, Ph––doing a PhD, even when I was in the master program,

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did that a year, pursuing a master's–master's degree is not popular. People want to, you know, go to the industry to work, you know, to make a living, but, you know, I feel––I think I want to–to–to–to get more––to learn more.

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So that's why I start, you know, started to pursue my master's degree. So when I went in the master's program and I was, you know, able to, you know, do more things, do research and, you know, my advisor,

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master program advisor. So he, you know, suggested me to do more. So that time, you know, this is back in 1993 and–and, you know, Hong Kong, you know, was going to

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hand over by–by–by UK to China. So they started kind of––some kind of a collaboration between mainland and Hong Kong. And I have never thought I should go abroad to study.

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First of all, I don't––I didn't have any knowledge. I didn't have the resources, financially or whatever. And I thought, you know, I just do whatever here and maybe find a job in university or whatever.

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So then my advisor, you know, you should go to Hong Kong. So then there was an opportunity for student exchange. So then I went to Hong Kong, you know, to at first work as a research assistant for a professor in Hong Kong Polytechnic

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University. At that time, it was not even called university. It called college. Hong Kong Polytechnic College or Institute something. So, when I was there and in the world very different.

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And I was, oh wow, you know, there are so many things that I can learn, you know, not only marketing, you have strategy, accounting, finance, you know, getting access to, you know, journal––English journals.

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You know, basically it's a completely different world. And when I was remembering when I was in China, reading English journal is a luxury. It's very difficult to find that kind of journal,

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okay. So all the articles or journals in China, either the quality, not–not, you know, not very good or sometimes, you know, they probably just copied whatever, you know, translate, you know, whatever in the Western journals.

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So, but now I was able to kind of, you know, get access to, you know, all these kind of things, the state of art of knowledge in the world. So then, so, you know, maybe I should pursue a PhD degree.

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It sounds, you know, very exciting and kind of, you know, challenging. And most importantly to me, if you–you know, if you go to US or UK or whatever, you need to take GMAT or,

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you know, TOEFL, all that kind of stuff. I have never done this, okay. My English was fine but I have never taken this kind of a formal language test. But in Hong Kong, the–the university I went in particular, they said, you know, you didn't require any,

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you know, GMAT score. I thought, okay, let me do it. So they admitted me and then I got into the PhD program in City University of Hong Kong. So that's the story. Oh, very nice. So was, like, the culture in Hong Kong or,

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like, the education culture very different in Hong Kong between––compared to mainland China? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because in Hong Kong at that time was the colony of–of UK. So, you know, everything is very British system.

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And the interesting thing in that time, because Hong Kong was going to hand, you know, hand over to––back to mainland and Hong Kong is also transitioning. The education system is transitioning from the British–British system to American system.

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So, for example, you know, in the past, you know, when I was in doctor program, people started to, you know, talk about publi-publishing articles in something, you know, reputable journals.

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Before that, a lot of people probably didn't do research, I would say. And if whoever can publish anything in any journal, you know, considered as, you know, significant achievements. But when I started PhD program the–the kind of culture,

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it changed. Particularly, you know, there are a lot of, you know, new faculty members graduate from US. They went back to Hong Kong and the bar had significantly improved. And we, you know, I kind of get exposed not only to the,

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you know, the Hong Kong, you know, environment, but the British environment, but also, you know, the American system. So–so that's why, you know, research became more and more important and critical

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and––which to me is good because, you know, I kind of get better training, in terms of, you know, I know, okay, I have to publish–I have to publish in top journals. So otherwise, you know, there's no way for me to move from–from Hong

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Kong to–to US in a very good university. I see. Okay. And then so go––to go into, like, a little bit more about your research specifically. I know on, like, your website and everything, it says that you focus on strategic

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management, so what exactly is that? Like, how would you describe that to, like, somebody just asking about it? So, strategic management is basically talking about, you know, if you are, you know, a company's executive and

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how you are gonna make sure your company perform better than others. Okay. So you have a goal and how you trying to achieve it. So basically, we are talking about, you know–you know, how you are going to develop, you know, strategic moves or decisions

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in order to, you know, help the company to grow, to outperform. And basically that's, you know, that's the meaning of strategic management. So in strategic management, it's quite a broad cover.

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You know, for example, decision making by the top management, you know, how firm can develop, you know, innovation, entrepreneurial activities within the organization, how firm go to global market, how firms do merger acquisitions

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and even, you know, like a social responsibility also, you know, belong to this domain. So it's–it's–it's a relatively, you know, broad, but it's more, like, you know–you know, strategic decisions

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for companies. I see. And I know you focus a lot, like, between the US and China. So what–what do you notice or–or, like, any significant differences in the business management or practices between China versus,

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like, the West or universal? Yeah. You know, there are a lot of differences and indeed, that's how, you know, it motivated me to pursue, you know, my dissertation.

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And this is the thing about in–in–in late 1990s, China started to, you know, to transit from a traditional planning economy environment to a market economy. They called economic reform.

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So at that time, you know, China trying to develop its technology industries. So they set up a number of––they call the experimental zones like a–like a cluster,

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which encourages, you know, entrepreneurship, technology ventures. So what I observed was, you know, we use Lenovo as an example. Lenovo was founded in 1984, I believe, similar to

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Compaq and some other, you know, tech firms in Silicon Valley. But when Lenovo started, you know, they didn't have money. They didn't have human capital. The whole market, you know, has not been well developed.

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Okay. So, then you–you observe, you know, Lenovo had been growing very fast. So, then the question becomes, you know, how Lenovo can grow that fast in that kind of environment compared to, for example, HP or Compaq or Microsoft

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whatever, in Silicon Valley, right? You know, they have technology, they have human capital. They have, you know, venture capital from–from you know, from the–the–the, you know, the financial market.

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So, you know, what exactly differs? So–so basically that's kind of motivating me to understand what special things the Chinese firm have been doing in order to grow and–and grow fast and sometimes even outperform their peers in

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US, for example. So there are a lot of differences between these two. That's, you know, what motivate me to study, you know, technology ventures in China. I see. And then has a lot of your research on technology

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entrepreneurship in Chinese companies, like, was that impacted a lot by COVID and, like, the current economic and political situation? Well, you know, pretty soon, you know, that's my

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research focus. You know, I continue to do this kind of, you know, research. I still, you know, work with the, you know, some of my former doctorate students who went back to China, the, you know, teaching in business schools in Chinese universities.

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And we still have a collaboration to work on, you know, on different kinds of projects. But obviously, because of, you know, the pandemic, COVID and, you know, traveling between China and the

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US becomes very, very challenging. And in particular, you know, I think before the end of last year, you know, China had a very strict COVID policy, so it's difficult to travel back.

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But we still, you know, had a lot of, you know, kind of Zoom meetings and communication. So indeed, this summer I went back to, you know, went back to Hong Kong and mainland China.

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I was able to to visit many of my, you know, my colleagues, you know, co-authors. I still can, you know, do, you know, what, you know, I'm planning to do. So, there are some challenges,

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but given, you know, the technology right now and, you know, I don't think that's, you know, something which may prevent me for not doing it. That's good to hear, then.

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Yeah. Yeah. And so a lot of your research is supported by teams in the US as well as, like, other foreign countries. So, are there any, like––or can you, like, compare the different work

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ethics and the productivity mindset between, like, US companies and other countries? So you're talking about companies or talking about the academic research teams? I guess both aspects.

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Okay. So, you know... you know, in general, I would say in US, you know, we have a very kind of well established processes or standards or procedures.

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So people, you know–you know–you know, teaching, you know, traveling, going to conferences, everything has been, you know, well structured. You just, you know, do these things.

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You know, I think we'll be, you know, we'll be fine. And also here people focusing more on work-life balance. Okay. Working hard, but also play hard. Okay. You need take care of your family and all this kind of stuff.

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But I, you know, feel particularly, you know, doing that kind of interaction with Chinese colleagues, it seems, you know, they work much harder. I think that, because part of the reason, because the environment was more competitive

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and, you know, they needed to, for example, here, you know, in the business school in particular, we didn't need to write any proposal for research grants in general, even though you can. But you–you know, you're not––you don't need to.

00:29:18.640 - 00:29:34.750

But in China, you know, winning grant is a big deal. You have to do it. And without it, you know–you know, this kind of a grant, you probably cannot be promoted. So it's a very––and also, you know, they need that kind of money for

00:29:34.940 - 00:29:49.190

doing research so that make, you know, the–the–the, you know, the dynamics very, very different. So you have to, you know, do a lot of things, extra things, in order to, you know, get there.

00:29:49.370 - 00:30:05.340

I think that's to me, you know, it's a–it's a huge difference between, you know, between China and–and the US. So I feel, you know, lucky to have the working environment in US and everything seems, you know–you know, at work very hard

00:30:05.870 - 00:30:24.430

and but you know I can balance work and life. But in China sometimes it's very difficult because of, you know, the competition and, you know, the overall environment. That's interesting. I was actually gonna ask about the work life balance.

00:30:24.540 - 00:30:37.710

And so, like, you know, there is, like, an increasing emphasis on work life balance, especially in the US. So do you think that has impacted your research here, like, in terms of quality or efficiency that you might have had

00:30:37.870 - 00:30:49.730

before? Well, you know. That put this, you know, I think work life balance is very important. It's not only important for–for your productivity,

00:30:49.730 - 00:31:03.600

but also for your health, right? You know, health to me is, you know, extremely important. So, you have to think about, you know, the career stage. So, you know, you think about when I was a, you know,

00:31:03.660 - 00:31:18.120

junior, I was just starting my career. I have a pressure for getting tenured within, you know, a number of years. So during that time period, you know, I know the importance

00:31:18.120 - 00:31:33.610

of work life balance. But you just cannot, you know prioritize work life balance, because if you cannot get things done, you cannot be promoted or tenured. So, you know, that's–that's a reality.

00:31:33.990 - 00:31:47.480

Okay. So, that's why when I was a, you know, a junior faculty member, I never thought about work life balance. And whenever I need to work, I need to get it done. I have to do, you know, extra, okay, in order to,

00:31:47.530 - 00:31:57.340

you know, get work done. Because nobody can help you. Only yourself can get into that, right? So because it's your own work. But when, you know, get a tenured, you know,

00:31:57.340 - 00:32:11.650

senior, that kind of pressure has significantly reduced. And then you are at a different stage of a career. So, you know, life, you know, work life balance is very important. So, your priorities have changed.

00:32:12.050 - 00:32:24.130

So that's to me, I think that's very important. I think, I guess, you know, for young people, you know, I'm not saying, you know, I discourage you to pursue work life balance, okay? Because, you know, health,

00:32:24.210 - 00:32:37.200

mental health, whatever, physical, it's critical. But you have to realize, you know, the reality. You have to, you know, make sure, you know, you can get you done well before you talk. Otherwise you will be more frustrated.

00:32:38.700 - 00:32:50.580

You know, if you cannot, you know, get, for example, get a tenure. Right. You're–you're, you know, you are not on schedule. I think your, you know, your stress will be even more significant.

00:32:53.550 - 00:33:05.590

Okay. And then kind of shifting into, like, talking about academia and your job as, like, a professor. Just to start off, what are your favorite and least favorite parts about, like, working in academia?

00:33:07.260 - 00:33:23.670

Well, you know, I enjoy being academic because, you know, I do whatever I like to do. So it's mainly from a kind of intrinsic interest. And I like to explore something new because you work on different projects,

00:33:23.750 - 00:33:37.590

you also work with different people. So, in each project involving, you know, different new areas, I need to learn. I think that's very, very, you know, to me, I enjoy it. Second, you know, the flexibility.

00:33:38.860 - 00:33:54.470

You know, working at, you know, in–in university, you have, you know, summer, you have winter break, you know, which add a lot of flexibility for your–for your time and plus as the professor, you know, I don't need to come to my office even though I spend most of my time in my

00:33:54.470 - 00:34:05.640

office. But many people choose to, you know, work at home or somewhere else. If you do not have courses to teach, you know, you can––location wise, you know, you are not––you don't need to go

00:34:05.640 - 00:34:21.420

to your office on a regular basis, on a daily basis. So that's also, you know, very flexible. I think the third one, I would say it's also very important is in the university, you always work with younger people.

00:34:22.930 - 00:34:34.410

So I remember when I just started, you know, my work, my job at Rice, I taught, you know, MBA students, EMBA students, particularly EMBA students. They probably––some of them may be older than me.

00:34:35.630 - 00:34:50.240

Okay. And I feel oh gosh, I'm talking to somebody, you know, older than me, I feel uncomfortable. But over time you say, you know–you know, year over year I became the oldest one. But I'm glad, you know, I'm, you know, talking,

00:34:50.240 - 00:35:06.600

interact with younger people because I feel young. I learn a lot of things I don't know. So I think that's, you know, that's, to me is a beautiful part of this job because, you know, keep you energetic and always

00:35:06.750 - 00:35:19.340

learn new things and you don't feel, you know, bored about, you know, your job. I think that's something, you know, I like. Something I don't like––to be honest I think,

00:35:19.340 - 00:35:34.020

you know, the––I don't have any particular thing. You know, if you––I don't like maybe, you know, sometimes because too many, you know––for example, I teach very intensely, you know, in–in–in

00:35:34.310 - 00:35:49.470

currently in school. And indeed over the past three weeks I taught 80 hours. So last week I taught 40 hours. So ten hours per day. So that's why you sometimes you send me an email. I just didn't reply. I didn't have time.

00:35:49.540 - 00:35:59.040

I didn't have any reply. It's in from 7:30 to 6:30. In the morning, 7:30, afternoon, 6:30. There's only one hour break for lunch.

00:35:59.610 - 00:36:08.570

Okay. I did it for four days. So, it's–it's kind of, you know, physically challenging. And also, you know, you need to grade student assignments. So, you know, that kind of things.

00:36:08.570 - 00:36:22.290

I'm not saying I don't like it. Sometimes my research assistant helps me, TA, they can help. It's just, you know, when you grade assignment because sometimes they oh, you know, you're reading the same thing.

00:36:22.290 - 00:36:34.840

You know, you have 100 student who are doing the same thing and sometimes, oh, you know, it's kind of boring. But overall, I don't have any particular thing I don't like. I enjoy being a professor in university.

00:36:35.540 - 00:36:51.860

I see. Have you always worked with graduate students or have you also been, like, taught undergraduates too? You know, when I was in Texas A&M, I taught undergrad. But when I moved to Rice, I've never taught any undergraduate students

00:36:51.910 - 00:37:07.460

at Rice. How would you, like, compare the experience between undergraduates and graduates? So, you know, there are a lot––there are a lot of differences. And but I never taught of Rice undergrad.

00:37:07.630 - 00:37:23.020

I heard from a colleague who taught, you know, a business major, business minor, because we just started the business major. You know, this—this in Rice undergrads are extremely smart. They may be smarter than all MBA students.

00:37:23.820 - 00:37:35.420

That's probably true. Okay. But unfortunately I didn't have the chance to interact, not, you know, to teach them. But I guess, you know, to me, like, even our MBA student, we have different kind of program.

00:37:35.500 - 00:37:52.640

You know, for them full time, part time. Part time, we have evening, weekend and executive program. So the difference across the program is the experience which associate with their age. So, I think, you know, the student experience make a huge

00:37:52.680 - 00:38:07.500

difference in particularly in the business school because when we teach, we're not––I'm not standing there to give lecture for ten hours. Nobody can do this, right? So, you know, in our classroom, we are––even the classroom pretty big,

00:38:07.500 - 00:38:23.200

like, 65 students. It's not, you know, 20 or 30 students, a small class like undergrad, we have 65 students. So how you are going to, you know, motivate 65 students within like five hours, like, time block and let them to,

00:38:23.200 - 00:38:39.840

you know, to be engaged, to participate in that. I think that's, you know, a huge challenge, right? So, one thing I think the good thing about this kind of students, you know, how you are going to leverage their experience and encourage them

00:38:39.840 - 00:38:57.100

to share and make–make, you know, what you're trying to deliver relevant to their daily job. Okay. So that's why, you know, I enjoy, teach seniors, you know, more experienced student because, you know, they're sharing their insights will

00:38:57.100 - 00:39:14.580

mix the–the teaching richer and more effective and fruitful. So, you know, I would say that probably the difference compared to, you know, graduate student with–with undergrad because under student––undergrad student, you know,

00:39:14.580 - 00:39:27.570

they had very limited experience. The–they were—they are smart, very smart. But because they didn't have experience, I think the sharing from their experience will be very limited in the classroom.

00:39:27.950 - 00:39:47.370

And then what would you say is, like, your main mindset or teaching philosophy in the classroom then? So, my kind of a thing is that I trying to be more––what's the best word––a student putting in–in their–in their evaluation.

00:39:47.890 - 00:39:59.670

So provocative thinking. Okay I want to push them, you know, think things different. It's not, you know, a lot of things you think, you know, take it for granted, but I think, you know,

00:39:59.950 - 00:40:15.060

can you think this doesn't make sense? [JS: Yeah.] Okay. So I think that's very important for students. You know, that's how you learn from each other rather than always from a very fixed mindset. Okay. You want to be more open to think differently.

00:40:15.170 - 00:40:31.770

So that's, you know, I think the student like my class a lot because after this—this eye opening, they haven't thought, you know in that particular way. Right. I think that's definitely a very good mindset to go in in the classroom,

00:40:31.770 - 00:40:46.400

especially compared to, like, just lecturing or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, I did lecture, but in a very limited time. [JS: right.] And you know, we–we had discussion, case analysis, individual based, group based,

00:40:46.850 - 00:41:03.270

all kinds of things, a lot. And then what advice would you have for any students who may be interested in a career in academia? You know, I cannot speak for, you know, for other disciplines in––I'm,

00:41:03.270 - 00:41:20.080

you know, in the–in the business I would say, you know, for a business, you know, field whoever, you know, interested in academic I would say, you know, you need to, you know, learn and know more about the–the business phenomena

00:41:20.770 - 00:41:35.850

because, you know, doing research is about how you are going to, you know, solve the problems theoretically. Okay. May not be practical about, you know, what's going on in, you know, in the industry and how you can help people to better understand

00:41:36.320 - 00:41:49.860

what's going on in the industry. So that's why you need to, you know, pay a lot of attention about what's going on and trying to know how to understand this, because this will be, you know, the kind of the–the

00:41:50.640 - 00:42:06.620

resources you are going to leverage later on when you're trying to develop, you know, insightful questions and ideas. So I think that's very important for being a successful academic–academic in this particular discipline.

00:42:07.540 - 00:42:23.570

Yeah, for sure. It's very important. And so to kind of switch into kind of immigration and your experience moving from China to the US, was your main motivation just for, like, your PhD or schooling,

00:42:23.570 - 00:42:37.810

or were there other reasons that you wanted to move to the US? So, I would say both indeed. You know, at the, you know, the primary reason was the family. Because at that time, you know, when I was a––I graduate couple

00:42:37.810 - 00:42:53.600

years earlier than my wife. So, I worked two years in Hong Kong after I finish my PhD There. So my wife was in––was a–a doctoral student in a PhD program in US. And when she was in the market and she was

00:42:53.600 - 00:43:07.250

looking for a job in Hong Kong because I was in Hong Kong, and I thought maybe I should look for a job in US as well, since she was also looking for a job in US. So our original plan was—–we met each other in Hong Kong and our original plan was

00:43:07.480 - 00:43:22.480

after we finished, she will go back to Hong Kong. And so by that time, since we have the flexibility, as you know, why don't we, you know, we see, she already got an offer from Hong Kong. I work, you know, I work there. So I said, you know, why don't we take a step further to

00:43:22.480 - 00:43:36.360

see whether we can, you know, find a, you know, two position in US. So then we start to explore and–and then, you know, we eventually, you know, we figure out, you know, coming to Houston, Texas.

00:43:36.830 - 00:43:51.880

So–so that's kind of, you know, a primary, you know, family reason. And of course, after you–you know, when we have the job offer, we decided whether we need to stay in Hong Kong or we need to come to US. And so, you know, probably we need to go to US because I think here the research

00:43:51.950 - 00:44:07.510

environment, you know, is better than–than, you know, in Hong Kong, even though my research is more, you know, China related, you know, there's an advantage for getting closer to China to do, you know, that kind of research.

00:44:07.530 - 00:44:22.270

But I think, you know, it's also valuable, you know, to do research about China in US because, you know, US does need, you know, professors, you know, in–in–in–in–in the university students.

00:44:22.340 - 00:44:31.790

And they need to know more about, you know, China, how to do business there. So that's why I believe I add value, you know, to, you know, to be part of the faculty here.

00:44:33.270 - 00:44:42.450

Is your wife also in––is she also, like, a professor here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. She's a professor in the Jones school at Rice. Yeah.

00:44:42.970 - 00:44:51.430

Oh, super cool. I believe you know they interview her a week ago, but–but maybe a different interviewer. [JS: Yeah. Yeah.] Your colleague. Yeah.

00:44:53.410 - 00:45:09.010

And so what was, like, the most significant challenge or culture shock that you experienced throughout your move? To be honest, you know, I would say comparing my peers, you know, I spent seven years in Hong Kong.

00:45:09.260 - 00:45:24.870

Hong Kong is a very international city, so both West and East, you know, anything, you know, you can find it. So, I believe I have been well prepared to move to US. I don't see anything in term culturally.

00:45:25.480 - 00:45:39.680

Oh, this is so different. But for me, I think the challenge more like a career related. So in terms of two things, first of all, you know, as I said, in business school, you have to know the industry. But what I

00:45:39.680 - 00:45:53.790

knew in Hong Kong was the industry environment in Hong Kong or in China. I knew nothing about US. So, for them when I teach undergraduate students, you know, back in college in Texas A&M, people talk about,

00:45:53.790 - 00:46:05.290

you know, Starbucks, Walmart. I had no clue. You know, Starbucks, Walmart, mean. Okay. How–how did they do business? So that took me a while to learn, to, you know,

00:46:05.780 - 00:46:18.960

because I have never got a formal education here. I didn't, you know, have any––I didn't have any knowledge about this. So I spent a lot of time to understand, you know, I, you know, the local environment through reading,

00:46:18.960 - 00:46:32.460

you know, the business journal, you know, articles, what––you know, papers, all that kind of stuff. And also, you know, I try to, you know, do interviews, write cases about, you know, local businesses.

00:46:32.460 - 00:46:48.750

So I published quite a few cases here. Another challenge, I would say, you know, when I was in Hong Kong, you know, I got a paper published in top journals. I had one. Oh, gosh. Very few people can publish at that time.

00:46:48.840 - 00:47:01.830

Okay. A paper in the very top journal in my field. I thought, you know, with that paper, I probably, you know, feel relaxed, I don't need to do anything. I think I'm fine. But in US, you know, people publish ten of that kind of

00:47:01.830 - 00:47:14.680

paper. You know what I have done? Nothing, you know, compared to, you know, the fact I have done here. So which means, you know, the bar has significantly improved. So which means, you know, if you–you know, I'm done. But the thing

00:47:14.680 - 00:47:29.950

here, you know, I'm starting from scratch. So which, you know, add a lot of pressure for–for my career because I have to do—–you know I should do more but psychologically, you know, I think, you know, it's kind of––I have to push me out of the comfort zone

00:47:30.770 - 00:47:46.040

to work harder, you know, to publish more papers in top journals. I think, you know, eventually I did it. But you know, psychologically, you know, it took me a while–a while to, you know, to adapt to, you know, this is a new––I have to,

00:47:46.040 - 00:47:59.060

you know, be ready for this. Do extra. So that's the difference. Okay. I see. And then on that, was there any, like, sort of discrimination that you experienced after coming into the US?

00:48:00.190 - 00:48:18.640

To be honest, you know–you know, mainly working in university, in business school. I don't see particular thing in people, you know, either, you know, I don't—–you know, people have that kind of, you know, intention or intentional things I just didn't pay a lot of attention,

00:48:18.840 - 00:48:34.710

you know. So I don't see something I feel, you know, uncomfortable in general because, you know, in the university things, at least in my, you know, my personal kind of experience, it's a very straightforward, you know, can get things done or done,

00:48:34.830 - 00:48:44.710

however can get things done. It's relatively straightforward. Okay. Maybe sometimes, you know, you want to be promoted this year, so, you know, you can wait for next year.

00:48:45.330 - 00:48:58.580

Okay. I think let's see, you know, I can wait and then can be promoted. I'm fine. Okay. So, in general I feel, you know, if you don't pay a lot of attention to this kind of politics or, you know, these kind of things.

00:48:59.800 - 00:49:15.890

I really don't see, you know–you know, it's–it's a big deal. I–I–I can–I can, you know, understand it happens in many situations. But in general, in my personal kind of experience, I don't feel much anything.

00:49:15.890 - 00:49:26.130

I feel none, comfortable. And, you know, I'm fine. You know, with some people, maybe you see something, maybe not. But I think maybe it's, you know,

00:49:26.610 - 00:49:39.620

unintentional or whatever, it's no big deal. So I didn't pay much attention to this. That's good to hear. [HL: Yeah.] And then for the last section, I just kind of wanted to ask about, like, your Asian American identity here.

00:49:40.260 - 00:49:59.480

So to start off, how would you identify yourself ethnically? I'm a Chinese. That's–that's a–that's a no ambiguity about this. But, you know, to be honest to me, you know, the academic, you know, professor, I never—–I don't say I

00:49:59.480 - 00:50:14.900

never—–I just don't try to play too much on the race issue. Okay. For example, you know, in my class, people be from anywhere, from, you know, from China, could be Chinese, Indian, white, black or whatever.

00:50:15.310 - 00:50:25.740

You know, we are just, you know, it's a class. We are, you know, I'm a professor. People respect me, you know, because I can deliver. Right. And whoever students are, you know, if they participate well,

00:50:25.740 - 00:50:39.810

they perform well. You know–you know, I'm happy about them and I respect them as well. So, you know, in that way, we really just, you know, we are all kind of, you know, professor, students or colleagues.

00:50:40.440 - 00:50:52.300

You know, we work together. We learn from each other. So, you know, trying to, you know, I don't, again, pay a lot of attention to, you know––because I'm a Chinese,

00:50:52.350 - 00:51:02.220

okay, I'm different. Okay. So that's not, you know, the way I'm just, you know, I'm a professor. Okay. Whatever. You know, you want to talk about—–let's talk about, you know,

00:51:02.220 - 00:51:14.220

the issues or things rather than, you know, who you are or, you know, what kind of ethnic group you belong to. Yeah, I think that's a very good, like, open mindset to have, [HL: Yeah.] especially in the academic environment.

00:51:14.940 - 00:51:27.440

Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like your cultural identity has shifted at all after moving to the US? Culturally, I don't––I think I still have a lot of,

00:51:27.640 - 00:51:42.220

you know, values I carried, you know, I got when I was a––I was little. But I think I do adapt particularly when I was in Hong Kong. That's relatively young age adapt to, you know, the Western culture. I become more kind of, you know,

00:51:42.480 - 00:51:53.370

open minded. You know, again, you know, I just thought, you know, I'm just an academic and, you know, I work, you know, things, I talk to people. I don't care where, which country you're from, what color you are.

00:51:53.900 - 00:52:05.900

And we just, you know, do business and, you know, tha-that's all, you know. But for me, I think, you know, it's an indeed, you know, this is the when I was in coll––in master program back in

00:52:05.900 - 00:52:20.610

Beijing, you know in 19—early 1990s. So, that time, you know, we had a visitor from McGill University in Canada. He was also a marketing professor. And he and his family and he the Indian.

00:52:20.990 - 00:52:36.410

Okay. You know, the family, the Indian family. They came to China, into our university, I got a chance to meet, you know, the professor, the professor's wife and their two daughters. So I was ask, you know, one of the daughters,

00:52:36.410 - 00:52:49.620

you know, which, you know, what's your identity? You know, you know, if you–you know, you are, you know, Indian, you know–you know, in Canada and you think you are Canadian or you are Indian or whatever. So, you know, we have that kind of conversation. And the–the girls,

00:52:49.620 - 00:53:05.820

in response, one of the daughters, you know, her response was very interesting. She said, you know–you know, I'm a global person. Okay. So I think that–that incident had a significant impact on me about how I look at, you know, what happened to me,

00:53:06.240 - 00:53:16.630

right? I live in US. I'm a Texan. I'm a Houstonian. But, you know, what I'm doing, you know, what my work is really to anybody I believe, any, you know, people who are interested in my work. I don't,

00:53:16.630 - 00:53:32.580

you know, set up limiting this only for this particular group or this particular area or this particular country. Yeah. And so being in Houston, do you––are you involved with any, like, Asian-American communities here?

00:53:35.280 - 00:53:49.060

You know, to be honest, not much. You know, there are some, you know, for them, on my wall there's a––what you call the Chinese––I can't remember, you know, the Chinese American,

00:53:49.060 - 00:54:00.610

you know, Petroleum Club. So the, you know, they invited me to give a talk. So some kind of, you know, these kind of things, you know, give talks occasionally, not on a regular basis.

00:54:00.610 - 00:54:14.920

And I was thinking I maybe should join the American, you know, the Asian society, but I haven't for some reason, you know, haven't set it down to, you know, to, you know, sign something for, you know, activities.

00:54:15.160 - 00:54:27.650

But I think I participate 1 or 2 activities organized by, you know, Asia Society or something, but not–not very much. Part of the reason is that, you know, there are a lot of things going on, you know, in, you know, on campus.

00:54:27.650 - 00:54:40.250

[JS: Right.] And also, you know, I travel quite a bit because, you know, the nature of my job. So, you know, I think maybe, you know, and also family, you know, need to take care of, you know, my kids,

00:54:40.410 - 00:54:51.990

and now I become empty nesters. Maybe I should do more. Yeah. [HL: Yeah.] For sure. Those are all the questions that I have prepared for this interview,

00:54:51.990 - 00:55:07.790

but is there anything else that you would want to add before we finish off? Well, you know, I guess my question is, I want to know, you know—–first of all, I enjoy, you know, the conversation and thank you so much. And all these questions are, you know,

00:55:07.790 - 00:55:11.520

are very interesting, and–and I think they are very important as well.