00:00:01.820 - 00:00:20.940

This is Holly Moore. Today is April 23rd, 1969. I uh yesterday it was a George Forest stall. Yeah, George, where would, where I'd like you to start uh would be the part of the story where your participation actually begins because I understand that you were uh

00:00:20.950 - 00:00:40.029

selected as a graduate uh representative on the Broxson committee or the faculty advisory committee. Look for it. So if you could uh start telling us how you first became uh involved in in this aspect of it and then go from there. Uh When this first came

00:00:40.040 - 00:01:04.800

up, uh there wasn't any graduate student organization to speak of. And the process of choosing me to be a representative was therefore somewhat laborious. Uh that was part of an ad hoc committee formed of members. Uh one person from each department. Uh This committee met several

00:01:04.809 - 00:01:25.540

times, decided on procedure amongst itself. And then uh we elected me to represent uh graduate students on the Boston committee. Uh an upshot of this has been in the past week or two. this ad hoc to me that shows me is now uh formed uh a

00:01:25.599 - 00:01:44.440

constitution for a graduate student organization and we're not going to have a graduate student organization next year. We've just elected officers, I think. Yeah. Uh how are the members of this committee um chosen? Uh Was it sort of a uh spontaneous uh get together? Uh That's

00:01:44.449 - 00:02:03.720

about it. Uh There was uh someone called a meeting at large of graduates when it was first suggest we sent a representative and that, that large group decided that the fairest way would be for everyone to go back to their departments and choose one guy to

00:02:03.730 - 00:02:22.429

represent the department, my department. You mean these are areas of study? These are not the graduate students don't refer your college. Although although there's some hope that we may have something like that for graduate students in the future. That's one thing that the graduate student organization

00:02:22.440 - 00:02:37.710

hopes to do who called the meeting at large is the graduate students. Do you call me that one? No adult. I didn't know what his member of faculty was. No, it was, it was a graduate of the faculty. If I understand it suggested that there should

00:02:37.720 - 00:02:57.190

be a graduate student on the Boston committee. And uh this was made public and someone put a note up on bulletin boards that they were saying that the grad students would get together. And hopefully in the future, we won't have to resort to that part of

00:02:57.199 - 00:03:20.740

the method. Uh After we were all collected, the uh committee met several times over a period of months and we considered names that the faculty and students sent to us. This is the bro committee that we're talking about. Now, we have you as the graduate representative

00:03:20.750 - 00:03:43.360

and then we have the, the undergraduate student representative and, and they have a big factor number. All right, we uh tried to meet with the board several times. Uh Doctor B Boson and others tried to set up a liaison and carefully spell out the ways that

00:03:43.369 - 00:04:01.610

uh our committee would work with the board committee. We were unsuccessful in ever having a meeting with them. Uh At the time, we thought it was because uh of Mr L's injury, he was in the hospital at the time this was going on if we didn't

00:04:01.619 - 00:04:26.750

have a meeting with them for to schedule a formal procedural. I hope we went ahead on our own and began soliciting names and discussing them. We hoped uh at the time of the, the crisis came, we uh were beginning to uh figure out how would we,

00:04:26.760 - 00:04:50.459

we would solicit names from the foundations across the country and that sort of thing. And then it happened. Um We sent the board uh a list of five names that we thought deserved further study, partly because we thought the board wasn't doing very much and we

00:04:50.470 - 00:05:09.869

wanted to show them that things had started. Although Doctor Masterson's name had been submitted by someone for us to consider, we, uh we talked about him and it was decided that uh regardless of his other qualifications, it would cause so much dissension amongst the faculty if

00:05:09.880 - 00:05:29.500

he was selected, but it would be a very unwise choice. Unfortunately, no one on the board ever consulted us on that matter could save everyone a lot of trouble. Oh, then an emergency meeting of the faculty student committee was called and Mr Allen who was acting

00:05:29.519 - 00:05:49.320

in Mr Robert's behalf came and announced that Doctor Masterson had been appointed president. They uh they just told us that there was a need for haste and secrecy in the matter. And that's why we hadn't been consulted when we, when we pressed him for further information,

00:05:49.329 - 00:06:11.170

he uh he really wasn't able to give us any, just said that uh the R is there and uh make it improper for, for them to uh to come talk to us partly because uh they felt there was a, a great need for secrecy in the

00:06:11.179 - 00:06:27.779

matter. Of course, of course, there would be, uh you wouldn't want everyone to know that you were asking a man to be president and uh be before he actually made up his mind on the matter as it turned out. Uh We had hoped to delay the

00:06:27.790 - 00:06:51.940

announcement until Saturday for press reasons as it turns out, uh there was a leak someplace, I don't believe it was from the faculty student committee that the news came out Friday morning and because of that, the formal announcement was also made at that time, I was

00:06:51.959 - 00:07:12.149

just my suspicion is that uh the faculty committee did a better job of keeping a secret on the board committee. But I, I have no evidence for that other than uh I've talked to all the members of our committee and none of them told anyone uh

00:07:12.160 - 00:07:34.070

that Friday afternoon, the fa will be me. And I suppose that other people will tell you more about that, uh, pass resolutions to condemn the board's failure to consult the committee. And, um, uh, on Saturday morning, there was a student meeting in the gym that I

00:07:34.079 - 00:07:57.230

address, I recall saying, uh, at the time that the, uh, the only thing that students could do to affect the action one way or another was to raise more or less hell, which got scattered cheers. Uh, I think there were 1000 people quietly quoted. Is that

00:07:57.239 - 00:08:11.109

quite fine with your observation? Yes, it does actually. And I'm sure that count is quite accurate because there was a vote in which, um, hands were counted and the vote was 900 some odd to, uh, a few. So I'm sure there were 1000 people there. They

00:08:11.119 - 00:08:29.059

were counted one by one at the time. I, uh, firmly believed that that all we could do was rock the boat and I had great fears that since the board did have legal authority in the matter, that nothing further could be done. They were very wise

00:08:29.070 - 00:08:54.700

people saying that at the time, the incident is radicalized me to the extent that I I now believe that with the proper show of pressure, uh results can be achieved that don't stick strictly to proper channels and legal authority. One of the greatest changes that the

00:08:54.710 - 00:09:21.890

incident has brought over made. I I didn't think that could happen before we we got into it. Doctor Masterson also came down that Saturday uh in retrospect, uh the clean blood get hurt in no mm uh attended a press conference in the faculty club when he

00:09:21.900 - 00:09:38.780

first got there Saturday morning. Uh and the timing was such that the protest march of the students from the meeting at the GM was coming down the street as he was going into the faculty club after he came out after his press conference, he addressed the

00:09:38.789 - 00:10:02.059

students for a short period of time and said among other things that he didn't see any great uh I very much, no, no defen over his appointment was to that effect which uh did not make him any for him. Pl he looked very much like a

00:10:02.070 - 00:10:24.799

man with his head in the sand. At the time later that afternoon, there was a series of meetings between Doctor Masterson and Susan. We, you know uh what I call student leaders for the president and vice president of the Student Association, the student members of the

00:10:24.809 - 00:10:44.719

broad committee and the college president, there was also supposed to be, uh, a meeting of Masterson with the Boston committee. But, uh, that, that, that it turned out did not happen. I'm not, uh, the, I think the reason given was that, uh, not enough members of

00:10:44.729 - 00:11:07.070

the committee could be found, some of them were out of town conveniently. Did that sound like a plausible reason at the time to you, the big people were indeed out of town. Uh, we, uh, were very pleased that Doctor Masterson was going to meet with us

00:11:07.080 - 00:11:30.250

and at the time, we were rather sympathetic to him, we had thought that the board had put him in a very difficult position. And, uh, after saying, uh, uh related to my synthesis, we, uh, attempted through up to midnight that night to try and work out

00:11:30.260 - 00:11:52.070

some sort of compromise that would, uh, would save his physic. We recognize that he had been put in a very difficult position and that he could, could not very well, uh resign as a political ploy to, to gain sympathy because, uh, he couldn't resign and take

00:11:52.080 - 00:12:10.130

back his position with Chattanooga. I think he can, couldn't go back there and tell him he was resigning as a political ploy to gain favor with the student. But the thing that we, uh you thought of eventually began to come out with that, uh, Doctor Masterson

00:12:10.140 - 00:12:33.809

might meet with the faculty student committee and discuss his qualifications. Uh as of midnight Saturday. That was the opinion. And we thought that might indeed be the case. And Sunday morning he need last time we uh all the students who had been through this series of

00:12:33.820 - 00:12:53.570

meetings were that they very down on it. Uh felt like uh we have been tricked and he's been stalling for time and we uh we released a, a prey in the case saying that, that he was unacceptable. I think uh there's been a lot of discussion

00:12:53.580 - 00:13:11.109

about whether or not he was a good administrator or a good scholar. And for those of us who had never seen him in an administrative position, uh The meetings with them Saturday been a long did a lot to convince us that he was not a particularly

00:13:11.119 - 00:13:32.489

skillful administrator, skillful administrator, could have uh could have done much to salvage the situation if it then existed. Uh The co president of the university have to do a lot of mediating between the faculty and students on the campus and the board of trustees, which is

00:13:32.500 - 00:13:56.719

precisely what Doctor Masterson needed to do Saturday. Um He didn't do it. They were in between the meetings with us. Uh He had conversations with the members of the board and uh he would come back with the a firm position, obviously gain from the board, not

00:13:58.030 - 00:14:15.099

wishing to compromise at all at that stage. And then we would beat him down a little and he'd say, well, maybe I'll do this or I'll do that. So he, uh, seemed to, to try and say all things to all people and, and wound up not

00:14:15.140 - 00:14:34.830

effectively reaching a compromise about how much time did you spend within the, in these series of meetings there were, oh, Saturday night we're talking about. Now, it started. The first meeting started about four o'clock Saturday afternoon and the last one finished roughly midnight. And I suppose

00:14:34.840 - 00:14:56.340

we were within five or six hours, uh, a couple of hours at a time, there were uh meetings of two places. And, uh, well, let's see, we met in the afternoon for about two hours, about three hours. And we had, uh, all went off and had

00:14:56.349 - 00:15:17.369

dinner and we met over in the administration building, um, nine o'clock that night, something like that. We talked to him for a while and then he went out of the room and uh we discussed the matter further amongst ourselves and, uh he came, but I, we

00:15:17.380 - 00:15:32.239

talked a little while longer and then you left as far as the, uh, students who were there, was it about the same group all along or were there lots of coming and going? No, it was, it was the same group. The actual members were the same

00:15:32.250 - 00:15:55.390

there, there were no people in the student meetings who, uh, didn't, didn't have official student positions in the regular student leadership. Can you, um, recall some of your, uh, uh, some of your motions of that time, the way things were developing, you, uh, tell me what

00:15:55.400 - 00:16:12.830

your, your thinking was at the time you first met him after having, uh, experienced today's event. Uh, when you really got up close, uh, in the situation, uh, at our first meeting, I was really quite sympathetic to him and he, uh, it appears quite in the

00:16:12.840 - 00:16:35.289

right statement, I was quite impressed during the first meeting. And, uh uh although after I got out, it seemed that uh he had perhaps been falling for time. What was it, what did you do that impressed you as an adroid? Well, uh I forget which one

00:16:35.299 - 00:16:52.429

of the students said that he thought early in the first meeting, he said that it would be the best thing all around if Doctor Masterson resigned, which is, uh I suspect a good way to start the conversation. Let's not meet around the bush. That's what a

00:16:52.440 - 00:17:14.479

lot of people think. Let's talk about it. And doctor Masterson, uh convinced us that if he did resign, it would have to be, uh, it could not be merely for political reasons to gain sympathy. If he did, in fact resign, he would have to stay resigned.

00:17:17.150 - 00:17:37.300

And uh without actually uh condemning the board, he agreed with us and that he had been put in a difficult position and say that the, he thought that definitely the, the student faculty committee should have been consulted, which was uh a part of what we were

00:17:37.310 - 00:17:56.510

concerned about. At the time, we, the students did not have a strong opinion of Doctor Masterson at the time later after, of course, our discussions with him, but also with private discussions with many faculty members, it became obvious that there, uh there wouldn't have been nearly

00:17:56.520 - 00:18:14.609

as much trouble if everyone thought he was uh a universally qualified man for the job. But as I say, at the time, the students, uh didn't have uh very strong opinions about that. There was a great deal of talk about due process but, and, and little

00:18:14.619 - 00:18:37.270

talk about his actual falsification. Basically, it then wore on. Um Did your, uh did your personal evaluation uh of Mr Masterson, uh erode along with the situation or how did, how did your impression of anything or alter? Uh My impression of him was very much lower

00:18:38.599 - 00:19:00.469

when he left town. Uh after saying after uh animating that he would meet with the committee and uh then he went to town without doing anything to ease the situation. But, uh that was the greatest step in, in what I thought of him. Uh Did you

00:19:00.479 - 00:19:14.489

feel that his, uh information of meeting with the committee was uh on the edge of a promise or a commitment or uh how, how did he express it? Do you recall at various times during the afternoon? He was strong or weak on that subject? Uh There,

00:19:14.510 - 00:19:30.770

there was a time when he, uh, just about committed himself to it. And when he left his position was a little, when he left the meeting, his position was a little weaker than that. Uh, there was one time during our meetings with him that he said

00:19:30.780 - 00:19:49.910

that, uh, he just flat wouldn't meet with the committee. But, uh, he had become convinced that, uh, that various forces on the campus, not the students who we were talking to, of course, quite politically. Uh We're, we're going to use that meeting with the committee to

00:19:49.920 - 00:20:07.609

try and force him to resign and he didn't want to have any part of it. And uh at that point, uh we uh just about begged him to try and say, and he said, well, I, I think maybe I will and we talk about it considerably.

00:20:07.619 - 00:20:29.010

Not more, but he, uh his position on that changed back and forth throughout that in the conversations with him. What were you personally urging him to do? Uh, at that time personally, uh I didn't think that there was, there was much hope for uh the, for

00:20:29.020 - 00:20:49.609

the campus to force his resignation. And I was, was hoping for a compromise of some sort which would gain concessions from the board of trustees and the president for the, the administration on campus and the cycling students on the campus having more power in, in future

00:20:49.670 - 00:21:05.959

events. Did you have some specific concessions in mind that you uh would? Well, I wanted to request one thing that was discussed a lot and I was in favor of and in fact, I still am is uh faculty and perhaps student representation on the board of

00:21:05.969 - 00:21:28.869

trustees, not necessarily in a voting capacity, but just to be there for advisory purposes. Uh The problem with Doctor Masterson's appointment could uh could have been avoided. I think if the board had had a clear picture of being moved on the campus, they, the men on

00:21:28.880 - 00:21:47.479

the board are, are very busy individuals and they don't have much time to be out on the campus. And as a result, they apparently are not very familiar with uh the attitude and desires on the campus. I think uh there was someone from the campus who

00:21:47.489 - 00:22:03.829

came to their meetings. It would be very useful. This is the sort of thing that we uh hoped would be in a quite of a compromise. What was the Doctor Matheson's reaction to these? Did you bring them up or did you never get to that point

00:22:04.069 - 00:22:27.939

if we, we discussed them? And uh he was uh uh study was of the opinion that some, some changes in the structure of the university would be very well advised. Yeah, this was, there was uh never any firm commitment of anything. OK. That's the idea. These

00:22:27.949 - 00:22:49.829

were uh very informal discussions with the possibilities open and we discussed a lot of possibilities that um since the discussion, this war is so open. It was uh even more of a shock when you left without doing anything about it as far as, you know, he

00:22:49.930 - 00:23:08.900

had a word with no one explaining how he was bleeding. So suddenly he uh he called, I think the development office and said that he didn't think that any further purpose would be served by its being in town effectively. No problem yet. Did anyone suggest you

00:23:08.910 - 00:23:27.209

at that time that maybe he was already deciding to resign or was this the furthest thing from your mind at the time? No, there was, there was no thought of that. Uh, no one suggested that no. Does it occur to you? No, I, uh, I hope

00:23:27.219 - 00:23:44.430

that we could work out some way that he would, but, uh, it did not seem like a large possibility. Well, after your statement then, uh, was issued Sunday morning, I believe it was, uh, uh, what, what happened then? What did, what did you do next? There

00:23:44.439 - 00:24:06.699

were Sunday night, uh, meetings in the colleges, the residential colleges which, uh, the situation was discussed and, uh, somewhat as we've been talking about it now, the, the main trend of the meetings was, uh to establish all the people who hadn't been at the various meetings

00:24:06.709 - 00:24:27.260

and the various committees. The, the facts of the case. What meeting did you attend? I uh, was at the Baker College meeting most of the time on the Baker alumni and I visited several of the others. Uh, Monday morning. Mm. That's a good question. Monday or

00:24:27.270 - 00:24:54.209

Tuesday. Let me look it up. We had a, uh, at a meeting of the graduate students at, uh, yesterday the meeting, uh, graduate student meeting was on Monday and we had about 450 graduate students there. Quite remarkable. I'm sure I've never been that many graduates. Things

00:24:54.349 - 00:25:09.829

like that. That, that's almost a total rule, isn't it? And I graduate students came out there. I think there are probably more like six or 700. But a number of those are people who aren't on campus just waiting to get their degrees. And uh a number

00:25:09.839 - 00:25:32.550

of them are foreign students. Although a large number of foreign students did come to this meeting. Glad to see that because things like this are important to everyone on campus. We uh discuss that on and we lie, gave a resume of the event of the past

00:25:32.560 - 00:25:53.609

week at that meeting and there was discussion by faculty members throughout this whole period. The uh the group of students that had met with doctor uh Masterson continued meeting once or twice a day throughout the whole period of crisis to um direct strategy. I sort of

00:25:53.619 - 00:26:12.709

sign, decide who is going to be where. In fact, we continued meeting a couple of days after he resigned because we couldn't, we couldn't structure our lives any other way. I got the meeting with a bit like this has many ramifications, doesn't it? Well, tell me

00:26:12.770 - 00:26:27.910

and tell me a bit about the Baker meeting. Uh What, what role did you play in this? And what did you summarize the event? What were you? Uh, I was, uh really just a visitor at that meeting. The Baker College President gave a basic discussion of,

00:26:27.930 - 00:26:48.920

uh, that Mike Berman gave a basic discussion of what the events were since he had been at the meeting with Doctor Masterson also. And uh I just commented briefly on uh the work the process committee has done. And could you just review that for me briefly?

00:26:48.930 - 00:27:01.520

Uh the way you told it to them uh at the Baker meeting? Well, I think I've already told you that the brain is fine. Uh Did you mention the number of names that you had gone through or any of your procedures or? Uh uh Yes, I

00:27:01.530 - 00:27:22.619

believe so. Um throughout this uh the whole crisis, I always felt like the strongest way to present the case was simply to, to recite clearly all the the facts that had happened. Uh It's interesting uh the, the out the outside press coverage of this uh was,

00:27:22.630 - 00:27:41.199

was quite a lesson to me. Also, I've uh for a long time, I've had a basic distrust in the printed word, but I've uh never had very clear evidence to base this on. Oh, since I was very close to the estimate, knew precisely all the facts

00:27:41.209 - 00:28:02.030

of the matter except uh private consultations with the board of Doctor Masterson, which no one knows about since I was very close to this. Uh I was able to very critically read the press account. I was quite disappointed. Uh I talked to a number of people

00:28:02.040 - 00:28:23.010

off campus who uh had from reading the papers, no conception of what was really happening. And uh they were generally people off the campus were uh generally very unfavorable to the students, faculty physician until they heard a precise rendition of all the facts of the case.

00:28:24.719 - 00:28:46.979

Uh which almost always seem to convince people that the, the more, at least in a very gray procedural error. Do you recall uh uh thinking at the time of any particular uh distortion in the press that uh you thought was a sex pregnant? Uh I don't

00:28:46.989 - 00:29:05.130

wanna say this distortion. I, I don't think there were really no whys or even half truth printed in the press. It was uh really a matter of emphasis that the press did not print the uh a number of facts. Uh It was, it was a crime

00:29:05.140 - 00:29:33.170

of omission. What did they uh did not uh draft there? Well, they didn't say that the uh the committee, faculty student committee had been set up at the board's request, for instance, makes the case logically much stronger. And uh the uh the chronicle eventually got around

00:29:33.180 - 00:29:53.199

to printing a, a very clear history of it. And then throughout the chronicle coverage was much more fair and accurate. Uh One thing that was 11 thing that clearly stands out was that after the Saturday morning meeting, the pro printed uh a story about that meeting

00:29:53.209 - 00:30:20.560

and about the other events in which the only student uh who uh was quoted was, uh, was one of the seven students who out of 1000 at the meeting who voted uh to uh to approve the board back to. Although they, they quoted in quite accurately

00:30:20.569 - 00:30:44.160

and there was no lie in the press, it seems like uh uh uh a distortion of the actual amount. Did um anyone on the broad committee ever at any time suggest that uh they understood that the board by asking for the participating advice and council of

00:30:44.170 - 00:31:03.469

the faculty students committee uh uh thereby was uh giving them a veto power. No. Uh In fact, we, we did have some informal discussion about that and the, the mood was clearly that uh we never had that power and never fought it. Uh We, we weren't

00:31:03.479 - 00:31:21.959

interested in having it. We all clearly recognized that the board has the legal responsibility to appoint the president. And uh we thought of our position as merely advising the board of what the position of the people on the campus was, what they thought was desirable. And

00:31:21.969 - 00:31:49.800

uh president and uh how well various candidates met those qualifications. What kind of qualifications were you looking for? The president. Uh I, I think the clearest thing that we wanted was a man uh with a large scholastic reputation, a large uh good contributions to the search

00:31:49.810 - 00:32:12.410

work. Someone that the faculty on the campus could respect, professionals, man, could be a much more effective leader under those circumstances. No, actually, I, I think uh a fair thing to say would be that uh we felt that Doctor Critter was uh was uh about as

00:32:12.420 - 00:32:28.119

good a man as we could look for. We wanted that sort of man. Although not necessarily a scientist, we had, we had discussions about that and we decided that it really didn't make too much difference uh whether the, the, the new president would be a scientist

00:32:28.130 - 00:32:52.170

or humanist. But uh we did clearly want academic excellence. We wanted someone committed to continuing with the graduate and research work of the university making it what's called a nationally great university. And of course, since I'm a graduate student, I'm uh was, was particularly concerned about

00:32:52.180 - 00:33:14.619

those since I'm gonna have uh shortly all three degrees from the university. I, well, 10 years from now, I, I want people to know where life is when uh they see my resume when it recognized as a place of academic excellence. What was your uh personal

00:33:14.630 - 00:33:27.699

opinion of uh of William Matheson before you became a member of the uh of the Robson Committee? Have you heard anything about? Well, I, I was one of the people who had been here long enough to have had a class from him. I had write some

00:33:27.709 - 00:33:45.910

history from him. No, my opinion of him was that he was, uh an excellent lecturer somewhat in the old school bit autocratic. But, uh, uh, it struck me that, that was probably the most efficient way to handle a class of 200 people. And I, uh, I

00:33:45.920 - 00:34:06.459

thought of him rather well as a teacher. Uh I wasn't in Hanson College, so I don't really have first hand information about uh the way he uh ran the college. But uh my friends who were in Hampton uh seemed to feel that he was quite autocratic

00:34:06.469 - 00:34:25.189

in his handling of the college and that it was certainly out of place there. Um So it turns out Hanson College is divided into the, to the majority and the minority, the minority are the officers under master in his term who uh got along very well

00:34:25.199 - 00:34:40.939

with him. Apparently you couldn't be an officer unless you got along very well with him. What is the function of the, of the master in the college? I let me think about that. Uh He uh he lived next door to the college and is the uh

00:34:40.979 - 00:35:04.438

general purpose administrator, uh faculty administrator of the college. Any comment about how many students, resident uh residents, perhaps 250 the all the undergraduates are divided amongst the colleges, whether they are not, they uh actually live there. So do the master have any counseling or advisory uh

00:35:04.448 - 00:35:25.909

duties uh or, or is this work something that happens informally or are they strictly administrative distant to move? Reserves? This depends very much on the math or uh the first masters of the college were uh poor and be rather aloof. Uh And this is, this has

00:35:25.919 - 00:35:42.489

been changed. The all the new appointments uh strike me as men who are much more qualified to these college masters because uh I could say they were young men. But that would imply that you had to be young to get along with, with uh college students.

00:35:42.500 - 00:36:03.360

I don't think that's necessarily so, but the, the new appointees are men who uh who uh do get along very well with undergraduates and are very interested in their problem. All right. So I think we'll uh have a much closer contact with the students there without

00:36:03.370 - 00:36:24.560

necessarily running their lives. But when your friends reported that uh Matheson was a bit autocratic. Uh Do you recall any examples that they gave that might uh I, I can't think of anything specifically uh might be well to, to try and find some uh some people

00:36:24.570 - 00:36:42.439

from the Masterson era uh on both sides of the issue from, from Hampton College. I think that would uh perhaps go a long way to seeing uh how he dealt with students. Um It's a much different position than the position in the classroom. Mhm. But at

00:36:42.449 - 00:37:04.949

any rate, your, your attitude about Matheson was, uh, uh, with enough in you got enough, uh, confidence in the opinion of your friends. Uh, to think that to be inclined to consider him rather autocratic. I had that opinion at the start. Um, I, uh, would like

00:37:04.959 - 00:37:23.320

to think but I was not overly prejudiced against him because of that. Uh, but if I, after all, as the president of the college, you would have the president of the university, you would have much more contact with uh faculty members and dealing with them. And

00:37:23.330 - 00:37:43.820

the board of trustees would be much more important. When uh then as your experience uh on the broad committee uh evolved uh can looking back now, can you trace any uh any change in your attitude about mats? Well, when Masterson's name first came up uh on

00:37:43.830 - 00:38:03.290

the uh Rason committee when we first discussed him, uh some of the faculty members uh said that uh there would be a, a vast amount of dissension in the faculty, particularly in the humanities and history faculty if you were the appointed president. And that was the

00:38:03.300 - 00:38:23.010

first time I realized that uh he had made uh uh uh a lot of enemies through his administration of the faculty. He was uh uh well head of the history department at one time and I believe he was uh also had some other administrative position over

00:38:23.030 - 00:38:50.129

in Humanity pre uh the pre dean of humanity. And uh apparently almost everyone in those departments was dissatisfied with his record as an administrator. Do you recall any specific complaint they, they make in the bathroom or about his administrative abilities or shortcoming? Uh The one thing

00:38:50.139 - 00:39:09.530

that, that I uh picked out in my mind was that he would be the, the report was that he would be uh wishy washy and agree to whatever you said when you were in the room, brow beating him. And then uh he would go ahead and

00:39:09.540 - 00:39:27.810

do what he was planning on doing anyway, at the time, his name came up on the uh in the process committee. Was there any word of, or in favor of him, of his nomination at all? Uh There were, there were some people who hadn't known him,

00:39:27.840 - 00:39:40.780

uh who said, uh oh really? I didn't know he was that kind of guy or I didn't know that there would be people against him, but uh there was no one who uh who remembered him well and stood up and said, oh, no, that isn't the

00:39:40.790 - 00:40:01.629

case. He was really a great administrator. No one said that. Have, have you ever heard anyone say anything of that sort in your experience with this whole issue? Uh I can't think of anyone. Um I'm sure there, there must be because there, there were at the

00:40:01.639 - 00:40:23.510

various meetings, always uh a couple of faculty members who would speak for the defense. Uh I think you should perhaps get a statement from, uh, Doctor King. Ya, uh, I, uh, I wouldn't want to put words in his mouth but he, he, uh, often was the

00:40:23.520 - 00:40:48.719

defense advocate because they can't very bravely put himself into and, uh, he, he might, uh, tell you some things about Doctor May did, uh, these, uh, uh, plates for the event, so to speak. Uh, I think you worded that way. Uh, were they mostly, um, from

00:40:48.729 - 00:41:02.469

the same point of, uh, defending him as a person or, or were they, uh, defending the, uh, the, uh, the accomplished fact when they're saying it's, it's, it's done. We need to live with it now. And let's just put anything down more of the letter. Actually,

00:41:02.479 - 00:41:19.489

he was meeting her because there was very little, uh, talk of masters and qualifications per se. Um, I think the reason being that everyone felt like it was the character assassination to get out in public and say that boy, this man's gonna be a terrible president.

00:41:19.810 - 00:41:37.600

No, none of us wanted to do that. Even those, uh, who may have, may have really believed it didn't want to get up and say it. But this was after all the board had put the campus and Doctor Masterson in a very terrible position. Uh, if

00:41:37.610 - 00:41:52.800

the board had come to us privately and asked what we thought of Masterson, well, that would have been well and good to say what we thought of his ability and his qualifications to be president of the university. But I think everyone felt that it would be

00:41:52.810 - 00:42:15.000

grossly unfair to say these things in public while we were debating the issue. So, in fact, um the public discussion is centered very largely on the um the board method of appointing him looking back on it. Now, what do you think the uh the outcome would

00:42:15.010 - 00:42:30.580

have been if uh the board uh headed by the committee? Uh, do you expect that the decision would have been reversed at that time? I can't read the board's mind that, well, I've, uh, I've made so many mistakes reading the board's mind in the last few

00:42:30.590 - 00:42:52.639

months. I know there would have been very serious opposition to and from our committee and I can only get what their reaction to that the thing. Well, is it, would it be uh uh an acid interpretation of what you're saying that, that it wasn't as much

00:42:52.649 - 00:43:13.199

a due process as it was uh opposition to master that, uh, that created the, uh, the issue I spoke with the, that if everyone would have, even if a majority of the faculty had uh agreed that Masterson would be a fine president that there, there would

00:43:13.209 - 00:43:41.290

have been only mildly worried pro protest to the boy. The, uh, the public injections were a great deal different from the private stock. Ok. The people who were most strongly against the appointment or though, because they felt Doctor Masterson would not be a good president, but

00:43:41.300 - 00:44:02.540

the, the, the fact that save them, the board abused us so badly and appointing them as they did was a very good issue to talk about publicly in your personal assessment. Uh uh Looking back on it now, uh do you um ho how, what do you

00:44:02.550 - 00:44:25.290

think about uh last of him as a president? What, what harm do you think he would have done uh to grand uh can you tell me your aspirations for the university and how I think the most, most critical thing, but uh feel would be wrong with

00:44:25.300 - 00:44:40.419

them in the long run. In the short term. Of course, there would have been uh probably faculty resignations and a great deal of turmoil. He came but, but that would only be short run and I, I suspect that he, he might have weathered it. If he

00:44:40.429 - 00:44:59.290

didn't, it would have been terrible. But if, say, if he did weather it and began running the university, the way he wanted. My suspicion is that uh the graduate program and the research activities of the various departments would have been very much de emphasized. He uh

00:44:59.770 - 00:45:18.510

that, that wasn't his style. Uh That's uh I don't have good evidence for that. That is my opinion from talking to faculty members in you. And uh and this was what they were most afraid of and if it indeed is true, then I am very afraid

00:45:18.520 - 00:45:41.810

of it too. But, uh, that would be my objection to his coming to the university under the best of circumstances, which would be that. Oh, he, uh, he just, well, might, might well make this, uh, gentleman's university in Southeast Louisiana. What, uh, how did you get

00:45:41.820 - 00:46:03.929

the news of his resignation? We're up to Tuesday now. Um, I think you told about the event Monday. Uh, I was, uh, sitting in my office scribbling pamphlets and I was listening to the campus radio station and they said that Doctor Masterson had resigned and struck

00:46:03.939 - 00:46:25.360

me as being pretty good news at the time. And, uh, about 15 minutes later, there was, uh, there had already been called a meeting of the uh leaders of the faculty and uh students leadership to discuss things in general. And I went over to that everyone

00:46:25.370 - 00:46:44.860

was very happy and, uh, we decided to send Matson a letter praising him for putting the university above himself and I started buying him making sure that we all didn't walk around with silly grins on our faces and have great hearing demonstrations in the street because

00:46:44.870 - 00:47:10.139

that would be bad for them. And, uh, that's about it. You, um, we, we talked about the changing attitudes, uh uh toward Doctor Masterson. Uh, can you pinpoint the time, uh uh, was it the Sunday morning you mentioned or was there another time uh, earlier time

00:47:10.419 - 00:47:33.540

that, um, that, that really was the brink as far as uh um reaching for compromise versus really trying to get him when, when he left town, he, uh he convinced me that uh a compromise was no longer possible. Um I'm feeling a little vague in my

00:47:33.550 - 00:47:55.899

mind about that kind of compromise. Uh You really were pursuing um the, the compro but there were uh several possibilities. Uh I think the thing that I would have hoped for would be some sort of concession from the board uh about how uh univer uh on

00:47:55.909 - 00:48:14.080

campus participation in making university policy, that would be as much as we could have hoped for. Uh If you'd gotten these, you think maybe the, uh uh he would have been acceptable, uh as a president, he could have sworn it then? Yeah, I think if he

00:48:14.090 - 00:48:33.239

would have, uh particularly if he would have uh made statements uh in the right tone when he proposed or when we talked about these sensations, but he could have won over at least the student to his side. Do you think it's one of the students to

00:48:33.270 - 00:48:55.139

his side that would have been enough? Uh I think it would have been enough to let him come to the, to the campus with no further public demonstrations. You see that the student opposition was rather more public than the faculty. I think that he would have

00:48:55.149 - 00:49:21.100

had the same problems in governing the faculty that he would have um previously. But precisely because he would have, then I think the four administrator and four administrators get into trouble even uh even with the past records of harmony. I think Doctor Masterson, if he had

00:49:21.110 - 00:49:38.870

never been at r would have eventually had trouble because uh because of the, the way he is uh apparently administrated by, you mentioned one turning point being Saturday morning when um we came out to speak to the students. Uh I think you mentioned earlier if I

00:49:38.879 - 00:49:58.189

recall correctly that you thought maybe he'd come to Houston might have been a mistake. Um Would you like to elaborate on that? Uh uh, the students watch at home, almost all of whom are much younger than myself have no memories of Dr Mason. And indeed, I

00:49:58.199 - 00:50:18.889

uh wasn't very prejudiced about him. They came down here and then one short day he comes in the majority of the students that not only was the board wrong in the method that they appointed him, but that he would be a bad president. So, uh whether

00:50:18.899 - 00:50:39.719

or not it's, it's bad, I think. Yeah, for the fact that he came down here may have forced his resignation. I'm glad we can. Do you, um, have any, uh, or hear any, uh uh did you have access to any hearsay that, uh, expressed an opinion

00:50:39.729 - 00:50:57.270

one way or another about how much Mason had been told by the board of trustee about opposition to his pregnancy? No, when she found out, I wish I could be telling me, I, I've been very curious about this. All my, my guess from the way he

00:50:57.280 - 00:51:16.280

acted was that they had left him completely in the dark. But, uh that is a complete gift. I don't have no information you mentioned before that he, uh, was looking out at this, uh, a group of 1000 students and that he said that he saw no

00:51:16.290 - 00:51:33.989

evidence of the, of opposition to his appointment. That's what he said. I don't believe it either. How can you, uh, how do you account for that statement? I think, uh, he's an advocate of the, the firm hand on the teller school and he figured that if

00:51:34.000 - 00:51:56.010

he ignored the problem, it'd go away. Did anyone ever suggest the possibility that maybe he thought this was a welcoming committee? Uh, no, no, it didn't occur to anyone that you might think that I, uh, no, that's, that's just impossible looking back on it. Now, if

00:51:56.020 - 00:52:27.719

he had not been advised by the board of trustees, do you think it's possible? You might have felt that? Uh, no, iii I just can't see any way. Uh, when he came out of the, came out of the, the press conference, someone had to tell him

00:52:28.520 - 00:52:46.149

that, uh, to what those students were there for. I mean, he, he wouldn't have come out to address the students, uh, like that and said that I don't see any sign of opposition if he didn't in fact think there was some opposition. Did they have a

00:52:46.159 - 00:53:06.520

sign at the time? Uh uh the, the only sign present that faculty and students united just fine. A little hard to read one way or the other. But uh it's a man stands up before a large group and says, I don't see any signs of opposition

00:53:06.530 - 00:53:17.850

to me. He has to be worried about opposition to him. And if he's worried about opposition to him, what are all those people standing there for? Did he say this in response to a question or did he just was this part of his opening statement? Part

00:53:17.860 - 00:53:38.560

of the statement? I uh I can't recall what else he said, clear record that would be useful. Well, you certainly uh uh recall a great deal of uh of events. It sounds as though you participated very closely in all these events. Uh uh looking back on

00:53:38.570 - 00:53:55.820

it. Um Do you feel that your uh your role as an opinion molder uh as a leader uh uh exerted very much influence or did you feel like you were in a foot along with the van? I think my uh that was a probably influence thing

00:53:56.530 - 00:54:18.459

uh at the time of the meeting with master and I was uh very uh persistent in the pursuit of a compromise. And if things would have worked out differently, I think I might have been one of the architects of the compromise that that never happened as

00:54:18.469 - 00:54:43.550

it turned out, uh, I think I did a lot to mobilize graduate students opinion afterwards. Graduate students are often very scattered out and hard to reach. And, uh, we had a, a large meeting with, uh, all in there and most of whom had been off campus

00:54:43.560 - 00:55:03.530

during the week and they knew very little about it and after the meeting they were, yeah, had a, had a clear idea of what had happened and, uh, I went out and voted in the referendum, that sort of thing. Mhm. Well, I certainly appreciate, uh, everything

00:55:03.540 - 00:55:17.179

that, uh, you've contributed here in the way of your recollections. Uh, I would like to point out too, uh, something that I neglected you earlier and that is that, uh, as far as archives are concerned, we're also interested in memorized diaries. Uh, uh, anything of this

00:55:17.199 - 00:55:34.820

nature that you might wish to contribute to the archives as, as part of your, your contribution to historical research. The, the only thing I have here are uh, couple of, uh, notes I, I wrote down for various talks and I think we've been through all the

00:55:34.830 - 00:55:54.239

material in them. We have coverage of the pressures and things of that sort. I guess all the press releases. It's not a large amount of time grasing plus all too. Well, I certainly wanna thank you for your time and, uh, we'll be, uh sending you a

00:55:54.250 - 00:56:12.070

copy of the, of the transcript of this interview along with the uh the uh uh an agreement uh under what conditions we definitely be released and you second for you at that time. Uh Do you have anything further you'd like to add before we uh turn

00:56:12.080 - 00:56:20.639

off the machine? No, I just cover the time is now 520. Today is April the 23rd, 1969.