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My name is Norie Guthrie from the Woodson Research Center, Fondren Library Rice University. I am interviewing George Ensle. Today is May 5th 2017. This is part of the Houston Folk Music Archive, Oral History project. Can you tell me about your early life growing up in Houston?

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Well, I was born there uh on September 6th of 48 in uh in Saint Joseph's Hospital. And uh at first we, uh my parents had a home in Bellaire on Mildred Street and uh we lived there for a few years and then we moved to

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uh a house on Rotan Street and then a house on Parano street and a house on Springwood Drive. And then we, uh we had a, a transition, I think Spriggs Way after that. We lived a lot. I lived there 17 years. We, we lived in about eight or

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nine or 10 different scenarios, but mostly Spring Branch Memorial and Sharpstown area. At the end of the my stay there. What high school did you graduate from? I graduated from Robert E Lee High School. I went to Memorial High School. First year they opened for two

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years and then the last two years went to Robert E Lee. What first drew you to music? My dad, he, he was a professional musician before I was born back in uh Syracuse, New York. He worked during the swing era playing a swing band. He played

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all the woodwind instruments, the Saxes and flutes and clarinets and traveled uh up into the Borscht Belt or the, of the New York, uh Caskill uh Resort uh up up in that area. And he also played a lot of, uh, speakeasies and, uh, uh colleges and,

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uh, even the dance marathons and whatnot. So, after he moved to Houston and I was born, there was always a lot of instruments around all different kinds of instruments. So, you know, I would always kind of sneak in and open one up and play with it

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and this, that and the other and when it came time to, uh, get in band in junior high school, I, uh, picked up the saxophone. I played alto sax, um, in the Spring Branch Junior high in the marching and the orchestra band. And, uh, when I went

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to high school, uh, I switched over to tenor sax, uh, and played in a couple of R & B bands. The Squires was one of them and the Wild Childs was another one. But in the meantime, when I was 14, we were living over off West

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View in an apartment in, in kinda a Uh an interim situation between houses. Uh, my mother found uh I was, I was uh guitar wise, I was, I was influenced by my brother's friend Ross Gentry. And he, he came over to the house and my brother was

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eight years older than me. And Ross would come over to the house. And uh he played uh folk songs, he played show tunes and, you know, things like they call, "They call the wind Mariah." And, and uh I was, I said that's what I wanna do,

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you know. And, uh, and then, uh, shortly after that when I was 13, uh my parents gave me a guitar and, uh, then, uh, by the time I was 14, I've been trying for about a year on my own to learn how to play. And, uh,

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I wasn't having a whole lot of luck teaching myself guitar. And so my mother cut out this ad for a free guitar lesson at a place called Telshick Studios, which is literally across the street from the apartment we were living at. So, um, I went over there

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for my free lesson and lo and behold when I opened the door and, and, and met, uh, my teacher, he was a bona fide full fledged beatnik. I mean, this was before the times of hippies, this was 1962 you know, had the Haurache sandals and had

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a beard and, and, uh, his name was Darryl Harris. And, uh, he sat down and played classical guitar and I said, that's what I wanna do. So I started taking lessons from him. And uh if I learned the classical lesson and went home and practiced it

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and came back and was somewhat proficient, he would show me a folk song because I would see him play folk songs, you know, before the lesson. And after the lesson, I said that's what I wanna do. So I learned how to play folk music by uh

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performing the uh and learning the classical uh technique and songs. And so by the time I was 16 or so, which would be like 1964 16 or 17, he introduced me to the Sand Mountain Coffee House scene, which was the folk scene at the time

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in Houston. And uh introduced me to Townes Van Zandt to Guy Clark who were friends of his and Don Sanders. And so I just, I, I saw Townes and I said that's what I wanna do. So, uh long story short, uh if that's possible. Um I started

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uh soon thereafter, uh playing at the Sand Mountain Coffee House myself when I was like uh uh 17, 18, I guess, let's see, 1967 I guess was the first time I played there. So I was just uh I hadn't quite turned 19 yet, I guess. Um What

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was Sand Mountain Coffee House like? Well, it was a, it was a folk coffee house. So it had all the fish net candles and, and uh you know, dimly lit room and uh the little circular tables and they served coffees and teas. I don't think

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they had any alcohol at all. I mean, it was a coffee house and Guy Clark lived upstairs and Guy uh worked on Volkswagens and guitars. He was uh like a master mechanic and also a master of Luthier where he was working on it. He had the

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Idiots manual. I'll never forget that because back in the sixties, everybody that had a Volkswagen had the idiots repair manual, which was this great illustrated um and somewhat comical manual for uh the care and feeding of your Volkswagen, which was a pretty temperamental critter. And uh

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he lived upstairs with his, with his first wife. Uh Susan, I guess her name was and she played, she played uh she was uh quite good if I remember uh at, at Sand Mountain. Don Sanders was booking it at that time because Mrs Kerrick was in

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the hospital with uh some heart issues and uh John Kirk was kind of in and out of the picture her son. But Don Sanders gave me my first gig. He was booking the Sand Mountain Coffee House and uh Carolyn Hester would come through there sometimes. And

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I think, uh um you know, the, the regular folkies that were on the on the circuit would come through there. Um And uh I'm not sure if Jerry Jeff Walker was, was down in, in town yet or not. But at some point I think he might

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have played there too. But it was a very neat and very uh um quiet and listening, you know, listening environment and so sober audience. What was that first gig like? Scary I, I had to sit down when I first started playing because my, my legs shook

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so much. So I would always place it down and then finally I conquered that. And uh but uh at that time, I remember I had a Harmony Sovereign guitar. That was the first steel string guitar I got and I bought that uh through Charlie Gistantis, Charlie

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Gistantis was like the classical guitar guru for uh for Houston. And he had a store, had a shop and it was, it was just uh an absolute mess. I mean, it was, it was, it was beautifully uh messy, you know, but you, have you, have you

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done, have you gotten any, any interviews or remarks about Charlie Gistantis? And he was like Darryl's uh mentor, I think Darryl Harris' mentor who was my mentor. It was over, I think it was on Westheimer I'm pretty sure and uh he was just as big kind

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of overweight fellow and, and uh uh he was very eccentric and uh it seems like he spoke with an accent to Gistantis now, I don't know what kind of uh what derivative that would be about nationality. But anyway, I think he was the one that sold me

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this Harmony Sovereign that I had. And when I played at Sand Mountain, you know, it was the, it was the first steel string guitar I got was a, was a Gibson. And when I started taking classical lessons, uh, you know, I had to get a gut

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string guitar. So I got a gut string guitar and, and then when I started playing folk music, I needed to go back to steel string. So I found this Harmony Sovereign and when I played at Sand Mountain, I, me, I remember how, how good it sounded

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to the point where there were some of the artists that were playing there wanted to borrow it, who had Martin guitars. It was a beautiful sounding Harmony Sovereign from the sixties, you know, and it was, uh, it was just a really cool, they had a, they

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had a front room which is a large room, then they had a back room which was a smaller room and it was kind of a shotgun shape. Uh, the front room was more, was more square shaped and, uh, from the stairs up to Guy's apartment, um,

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and it was, I guess it was on Shepherd or where was it? It was Richmond, Richmond. Yeah, that's where it was. Yeah. So, uh, that's what it was like. Um, what other clubs did you play in Houston early on? Well, at that point, um, I had,

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I moved to, uh, Austin in 66. So, at that point, I would just come back in the summers typically at first and I was playing at, uh, La Bodega, uh, Theodores, um, Houlihans. There was a place called something, something like Sunshine or Sunflower or something.

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It was a little hippie place. Houlihans of course and, and the were, were bars and, uh, clubs and restaurants. Um, and then the, and then the Anderson Fair started playing there in the, uh, mid seventies. So those were the first and then the old quarter after that.

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But those were the first places I, I can remember playing. Um, no one really talks about La la Bodega very much. Could you describe? Well, that was a long time ago. I'm sorry to say, I don't remember all that much about it. Um, all I know

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is it was a, the place I used to play and it was in the Montrose area, Houlihans and Theodores, I guess lasted a lot longer. And, uh, but yeah La Bodega, I hope I'm not making that up. You're not, you're not, I, I just read it is a,

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as a place to attend to hear folk music in like 1970. Uh, there was an article I feel like it was from 76 and it's listed on there, but no one really mentions it too much. And I saw and I was like, oh, ok. La Bodega. If

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you are, if you ask, like, if, if you ask, are you gonna do one of these with like Bill Cade probably. Well, I know Bills still around and he might remember it. Gosh, I don't know. Vince might remember it, you ask him. But, uh, yeah, those

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were the, those are the main places I come back. And then at that time I had, uh, picked up a bass player, Greg Valdespino, uh, was playing with me. So we would do a duo. And, uh, so what kind of venues did you enjoy playing? Did

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you kind of like places like Anderson Fair or, you know, the outdoors more your style? Yeah. Well, Anderson Fair at first was just, uh, it was a spaghetti place, you know, and it was just, uh, just a little shotgun room that first room when you first,

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uh, walk in now and they had like spaghetti specials and, and pizza and beer. And, uh, if my memory serves me when you went in the stage was just right there on the left and it was just filled with tables and the kitchen in the back.

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But, uh, I met a lot of people there, Pete Gosh. Um, Vince, Bill, um, probably Eric Taylor probably met him there, uh, was a fellow fellow named Rebel Smith. People talk about, um, and Bill and Lucille Kay. And, uh, of course, then there was like, Bill

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Stines and Bill Hearn, uh, not Bill Hearn. Bill Hames and Bonnie Hearn mostly were playing in a then. But, um, and I really enjoyed the camaraderie and the and the fellowship and, uh you know, we were all so we're doing the same thing, you know, doing

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our own music and uh playing acoustic, you know, folk music and uh then they would have the block parties, which was, you know, a big festival, fun festival. But I met a lot of really fine people there, Steven Gerrard and Francy and Pete and um and

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the, and the owners who were like a collaborative, you know, that, that kind of was a, an interchanging sort of group of people. But the old quarter that was more of a listening club and that, that was a notch above because it would have touring acts

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in there like man's lips coming. Uh Latin Hawkins and uh David Bromberg. That's where I met David Bromberg. And uh he actually came and sat in with me and I, I got to know his, his clarinet player, Bill Billy Novik pretty well and, and uh uh

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he would come over to the house when he would play in Austin and we'd hang out and play together and uh and Bromberg uh Billy Joe Shaver. Um And, you know, so the old quarter was downtown. It was totally different than the, than the Montrose, you

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know, hippie kind of uh pot smoking, uh uh you know, psychedelic thing. It was like a hard core next to the transient hotel, the George Hotel across the street from the police station. And so it was, it was kind of a polar opposite from, from Anderson

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Fair and those kind of coffee house, you know, Sand Mountain Coffee House. But on the other hand, it still had the caliber of, of songwriters and performers that uh there was just, it was top shelf all the way and, and the owners were all about, you

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know, the, the music, the lyrics and, you know, not really about the bottom line and, and, uh you know, breaking in a lot of money the next door in the George Hotel is where sin lived. And, uh, he was uh, an ex merchant marine, an elderly

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character who, uh had throat cancer or something. And he had his, he talked like this, you know, and uh, uh drank white port wine. He's the fellow that inspired guy Clark's song about, uh the I'm 99% sure because that, that was, um, one time I sat

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down on the curb with uh Sinbad and uh I'll never forget I was having kind of a down time. And, uh, and he, he sat down next to me and he handed me his bottle of white poured wine and he just drank, like, just carried 1/5

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around and drank it, you know, and I saw it, I was like, maybe 22 years old or something, you know, and I, I thought I was pretty tough and I took a big swig and gagged and hand it back to him, you know. And he said

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his space with authority but it was a completely different scene and, and it was, uh, and I know Eric Taylor and, and Vince Bell, we were playing there pretty, we all play there pretty regularly and, and we made pretty decent money, you know, for, for that

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time period. And, uh, then we played like U of H, uh, the coffee house at, at U of H and, uh, and then we would do the, uh the Friends TV show and that little old show that Bruce Bryant produced and we do some of the,

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uh the uh muscular dystrophy, I guess it was the marathons. And Bruce Bratt was a real big supporter of what we did and his, his little old show, I think Ron Stone was involved with that as well. So those were, those are most of the, most

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of the, most of the gigs were down and, uh in, you know, in the downtown, in the Montrose area and the Nail cor was the heart of downtown. So to kind of backtrack a little bit when you began playing in Houston, you know, you mentioned Guy

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Clark and Towns fans, aunt and it was right before they made their move to Nashville and no Towns has kind of already done a little bit of work perhaps. But, um, how did you view them at the time as a young, young person starting out? Well,

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Towns was like four years older, but he was like, 30 to 40 years older as far as where he was, in terms of his, his, um, psyche, I mean, his, uh, he had been, he had been, I don't know, the town's ever worked a day gig.

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So he had been doing music and he was, he was in it for a penny, you know, and for a pound. I mean, so by the time I met him and he used to stay with Darryl. Sometimes down on street, Darrell had an apartment where a

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lot of guys in Dallas came through, uh, and stayed there, Dale. So far at one point was his roommate and I used to go to hang out down there and towns would come through and stay there. And, uh, he was a, he had already had, uh,

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his first record I think, came out in like 68 or something like that. And, uh, so he'd already been picked up by an independent label. He'd already had, you know, an album under his belt. And even though he was four years older, I mean, he was,

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you know, he was knee deep and, you know, or up to his neck and in his career and it was going full bore and he was playing all over the place. And guy was, he had a gig at The Chronicle, I think he was doing a,

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some graphic artwork, stuff for his bread and butter. And, uh, he actually got, when Jerry Jeff recorded uh that kind of a seminal album that had like 45 guys songs on it. That's what kind of pull the guy onto the songwriting scene. And I think that's

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when he got his publishing deal and he moved to uh to L A but Towns, uh he didn't move well, first, he, I think, first he moved to Austin and uh so I got to know towns uh pretty well when he was there and, uh, in

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a couple of different places and then I went up to Nashville and stayed with towns after he moved up there on several different occasions. The guy, the only time I went up to, to Nashville to, to hang with guy, he was on the road. So I

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just, I spent the day with Susannah and, uh, but she taught me a lot. She had just gotten, uh, a hit with that, uh, song, uh, dance like nobody's watching Love like you'll never get hurt. It's gotta come from the heart if you want it to

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work. That was like a number one I think for Kathy Mate. So she, she had some real insight into songwriting and, and so it was, and I really enjoyed her company. But, uh, uh, and, and in retrospect, I mean, I was, I spent a lot more

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time in, with towns and towns mentored me a lot more than God did. But they, uh, in the seventies they both I think went went to their, their, their separate ways out of Houston. Um, in the summer of 69 he spent some time in New York.

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Yeah, I went up there, I went up there in 68 and, uh, I had met Paul Simon. He was really one of my biggest outside influences. I really loved his work and Tom and Garfunkel's work. It was, it had so much, especially the guitar work and,

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uh, so much more than a lot of the, uh, the, uh, the more popular, uh, acts and, and a lot more depth to, to his songwriting, to his lyrics and their harmonies. Of course, just everything. It was very appealing. And I, I used to cover a

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lot of his songs and, uh, one of them I couldn't figure out very well. I mean, I, I was having a hard time figuring out it was an instrumental, it was called Angie and it was, uh, it was a real difficult song. It was a, uh,

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they had a walking bass progression and, uh, it was written by Burt Yak who was, uh, and I had a really hard time doing that and, and you, and, uh, there was a, um, there was a spot in there where it was a, uh, and

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I, I had a hard time figuring that out what he was doing. And so they were coming to Austin and, um, my friend Sabra, she, uh, she said, uh, well, why don't you just go, go to the gig, you know, and they were gonna be playing

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at the auditorium or they call us in the auditorium. Yeah, the Austin Auditorium. This is 1967 probably. And so I just, I just got there early, I got there like about five o'clock and right after I got there they pulled up in, in the, the limo

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from, uh, from the airport and I just introduced myself and, uh, they said, well, well, come on in, you know, and so I went backstage and I mean, the place was empty and, uh, I ask Paul how, you know what he was doing there and, uh,

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he showed it to me and, uh, we just kind of, they kind of befriended me and, uh, so I went to see them when they were playing at the, uh, TCU. They played a lot of college, uh, concerts like TCU and, uh, um, um, but I

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guess it was, uh, well, College Station, they played at a and M College Station and, and they would invite me backstage when I went, went to these different venues and just really love the concert as well. Paul said, if you're, you know, if you ever come

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up to New York, look me up. So in 68 he gave me his address and in 68 uh, in August of 68 I flew up there from Houston just to go hang with Paul Simon for a while. On his own turf. And, uh, I just got

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to see him for one morning because he was, that was right after the, the graduate had hit and, I mean, it hit big and it put Dustin Hoffman, you know, on the map and it was really big, um, cold picture, you know, and had Simon and

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Gar music to it. So they did really well financially and as far as exposure goes, but at the same time, that was when they were splitting up. So there was a lot going on. And anyway, I met some folks when I was up there. And then

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in 69 I went back and spent the whole summer up there and I was working with a cab driver. Um There was a place called Apostolic Studios and that's where the gas from hair used to hang out that wrote the musical hair. And a lot of

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the uh a lot of the New York uh scene was there including a guy named Bernard Purdy who was a drummer turned producer and he played with everybody from, from the Philharmonic to Aretha Franklin. I mean, he was a phenomenal percussionist, a drummer. And uh he

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said he wanted me to do a record with him. So I supported myself working with this cab driver. Uh Johnny Sound was his, was his, uh his stage name. His real name was uh I think, and he was a Puerto Rican drove a cab by day.

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And, uh, was a bartender on the Upper East Side, uh, singles bars by night. And, uh, so, uh, he would get material from, from, uh, Bernard Purdy and I would take the songs and work with him during the day and transpose it to find the key

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that he could sing it best in and work with him on, you know, making the song on his own and demoing up, you know, his stuff. So that's the way I survived in 69. Then I went to, uh, while I was up there, I went to

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the Newport Folk Festival and then I went to Woodstock, uh during that summer. So it was a, it was a fun time for a 19 year old kid. So you later played the college circuit. Could you describe that experience? Well, and, uh in, in 78 I

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guess, uh I'm not sure if I was doing it by then or not, but in 78 I had a grant from the federal government to be an artist in the schools in Beaumont. And, uh, Eric Taylor had, uh the reason I found out about it was

00:32:38.079 - 00:32:58.239

he had met someone and was doing one in Palestine, Texas. He had met an artist, I think he was a poet. And uh it was, it was very lucrative to say the least for uh guys that were doing what we were doing to get paid a

00:32:58.250 - 00:33:22.530

stipend. It was like $1000 I think it was $1000 a month or something like that. Yeah. So, anyway, uh, and it was through the federal government because after the, uh, the Civil Rights Act had been passed, um, segregation was slower in a lot of areas and

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Beaumont was one of them in Palestine, East Texas is probably another one. And so federal government pretty much mandated that these school districts that weren't allowing these underprivileged kids to have, you know, the opportunity to, to be in a, in a more elevated, you know, cultural

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environment in a, in a, in a better school, they would send in artists of all different disciplines to go in there and at least give the, they give the kid some kind of a cultural input and some kind of nurturing for, you know, their creative needs

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in their inside show them, there's something else besides, you know, the a hard time living in the, you know, in a, in a poverty kind of environment. So I found out about that and I enquired at the, through the uh Texas Commission on the arts and

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I got a grant to go to Beaumont. And uh when I was down there, I garnered enough money to make my first album, which was head on and it was about that time that I was, I was doing the college circuit. Um that was like a

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four month, that was a semester long. Uh Then I did a tour in Colorado. But about that time I started playing the college circuit and I got together with uh Lindsay Haisley and Nancy Griffith and a fellow named Steve Carruthers, who was one of the guys

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that actually booked the uh coffee house at Lamar in Beaumont. Um He retired from that gig and he, he wanted to start booking us the three of us. And uh we started a booking agency, Sugar Bear. Booking, Sugar Bear was most one of my dogs, my

00:35:21.620 - 00:35:45.260

big dog and uh we went through the, which is National Entertainment and activities, campus activities association nec CAA. And they had these regional conferences and you know, you would pay to, to attend, you pay to be a member and you would pay to exhibit and pay

00:35:45.270 - 00:36:07.179

to submit um to do a live showcase at the conference. And they were, they were really well attended um there a lot of, but they were mostly all college kids. So there was a whole lot of partying going on and uh a lot of the, the

00:36:07.370 - 00:36:29.360

deal making so to speak as far as getting gigs and stuff went on in the motel rooms when people were just ad hoc kind of just sitting down and playing, you know, Alan do was the best. But anyway, um we try to go with that and

00:36:29.780 - 00:36:46.010

it was so we, we, we showcased in several different regions and we end up uh like in the North Central and we went up to Omaha and, and uh I think there was one in Dallas and we did about three or four of them, but they

00:36:46.020 - 00:37:11.719

were quite expensive upfront investments. You know, we'd have to rent the video equipment to, to play our, you know, our videos at our, on our table. You know, every, everyone you paid to have a table during the, in the exhibit hall. And so, uh we got,

00:37:11.729 - 00:37:31.889

we got uh, a lot of work, I got a lot of work and, uh, after that, that, uh, agency went down and everything, but I still got a lot of work in Texas and somewhere in the mid eighties. Uh, so I would play like Beaumont, I'd

00:37:31.899 - 00:37:52.270

play Texas A and M, I'd play uh, University of Houston Clear Lake. I'd play University of Texas, the Cactus Cafe. I'd play Amarillo College. I'd played in Lubbock, uh, at Texas Tech, which is a great coffee house. San Angelo had a great coffee house, San Angelo

00:37:52.280 - 00:38:14.679

State and even level land where they have this school. I don't know if you're familiar with Levelland. It's called South Plains College. And it's a school that's dedicated to getting degrees in all different disciplines of music, including songwriting and banjo. And I mean, it was amazing

00:38:14.689 - 00:38:40.840

when I played there out in the middle of nowhere. It's west of vo, about 50 60 miles and, but it's, uh, still going strong and it's, it's all about music, but it's it's very remote. And uh then in the mid eighties, something happened where the way

00:38:40.850 - 00:39:08.149

I understood it was prior to that time, colleges and universities were not considered profit making making institutions and therefore did not have to pay performance royalties to the performance royal organizations, the Pr OS, which is A and BM I, and now there's a, well, they went

00:39:08.159 - 00:39:28.199

after the universities and they said, well, you've got a college stadium here and you've got 15,000 people there listening to someone perform a song on the field with the band marching to the song. We want you to pay us for that. We want performance role is.

00:39:29.229 - 00:39:55.409

And when that happened, the entertainment budget, all this money had to be thrown at the, at the uh being a as captain. Uh And so all the coffee houses started folding in these universities and colleges because that was the first thing to go, was considered the

00:39:55.419 - 00:40:18.850

most expendable was the, the folk singers, you know, so that just dried up pretty much. Just try it out in the, in the like the mid eighties. So, but I, I uh I did, uh like I say, I enough uh income from being an artist in

00:40:18.860 - 00:40:40.929

the schools to make my first album head on. And Willis Allen Ramsey had built a studio in Austin from what I understand from the role that he got from uh Muskrat Love cut that captain did that guarded him like a like, uh a great deal of

00:40:40.939 - 00:41:05.320

money. And so he built this Pristine studio over off South Lamar called Sound and we recorded the first record there and we recorded it head on. That's for them. The title came from which meant that you recorded straight to um, tape, the, the finished master tape

00:41:06.189 - 00:41:27.629

live with everybody playing the song at the same time. And uh if there were any mistakes or any glitches, uh Bill Blas was the producer and he'd have you just go back and, and redo that just that part and then he would take the, the, all

00:41:27.639 - 00:41:46.810

the tapes and edit with razor blades would, would edit the bad part out. And the new part in with these seamless edits, it was amazing. Bill and Bonnie Hearn had done a project with him through BF Deal records and Nancy Griffith had done the record that

00:41:46.820 - 00:42:09.520

kind of put her on the, on the map with, uh, on these woods. She had done, uh, a record with him. So I chose him to be my producer and that's what we recorded it in, uh, 1978. And so, um, you recorded the first album and

00:42:09.530 - 00:42:33.530

what happened next? Well, mhm. After that, I had to get the, uh, the finances together too, press it up and do the artwork and, uh, I found a really great artist there and, uh, in Austin, I can't remember his name but he did it, he did

00:42:33.540 - 00:43:01.129

it up uh the graphics layout and, uh, my wife, uh, girlfriend at that time, she took the front and back cover shots and, uh, then I had Wakefield press them up and, uh, which was all, I mean, it was, it was, it cost almost as much

00:43:01.139 - 00:43:24.219

to make the record as it did to press the record back then. That's the way it was. And then, uh I just continued doing clubs in the, you know, in the Texas region mostly at that time. Um, and I had a standing residency at a place

00:43:24.229 - 00:43:41.479

called The Hole In The Wall there in Austin. It was on the drag and it was, uh, Nancy Griffiths had played there. She had a, a night and my friend Lindsay Haisley, uh, was playing there. He had a night and he had me do a guest

00:43:41.489 - 00:44:01.120

set and the guy hired me on the spot, Doug Genie. And so I got a Sunday night slot and I, I had, I had that slot when I was in town, which is most of the time. Um, for like 15 years from, you know, 76 is

00:44:01.129 - 00:44:28.530

when I started playing there. And there was clubs that opened and closed there too. There was one really great place called the other side and there was a place called, uh, Emma Emma Jones. Yeah. M and Joe's place called the Alamo Bar downtown. Uh, and there

00:44:28.540 - 00:44:49.169

was a place called, uh, the Checkered Flag, uh, which is where the real folk scene was there in Austin and Ron Kennedy had a, a classic car, well, not classic, I guess. I don't know what they were, but they were like Thunderbirds and Corvettes and whatnot.

00:44:49.179 - 00:45:08.280

A little car exhibit and a folk coffee house. And that's where from Holds and Bonnie Hearn and Peter, whoever was the folk people that came through town would play there at the Checkered Flag. I didn't get a chance to play there because it had transitioned over

00:45:08.290 - 00:45:33.959

to uh Castle Creek when Rod Kennedy sold out and started the, uh Curville Folk Festival with, with Nancy. Uh, so I play the Checkered Flag a lot and that was, um, that was a really, really great venue because they had a lot of touring singer songwriters,

00:45:34.929 - 00:45:57.760

you know, that, that term singer songwriter sort of, uh came into being, you know, in like the, the, the late seventies and eighties before that, we were like folk singers and then the, the singer songwriter just sort of. So there was John Prine and there was

00:45:57.770 - 00:46:18.989

Tom Waits and, you know, all these guys and Ram and Jack, I, I used to open for Ram and Jack and to play at Castle Creek. And then there was, uh the Red Lion. There was a place called the one night, uh, and where I played,

00:46:19.000 - 00:46:38.510

my very first gig was called the 11th Door and it was on Red River and I was all of 18 years old and, uh, um, Big Bill Moss was holding forth there. He had this, this, it was a piano bar and he had this, a real

00:46:38.520 - 00:46:55.750

body show that he did with a 12 string guitar. He was a big felony. He, he was a real boisterous and, and, uh, um, he let me do a little guest set. It was the first time I played in public for anyone and I was like,

00:46:55.760 - 00:47:22.310

17 or 18, I guess. And that was called the 11th store. But there was, there was like a handful of clubs. Then armadillo happened and the whole, and Willie happened and the cosmic Cowboy thing happened and it was uh uh long haired cowboys and, and uh

00:47:22.840 - 00:47:40.189

hippy rednecks and it was just the, just the whole melting pot of characters. And when I first went up to Austin in 66 I mean, there was, there was the, the goat ropers, there was the cowboys, you know, the rednecks and then there was the hippies

00:47:40.199 - 00:48:03.239

and like, you didn't go into a redneck bar unless you expected some trouble, you know. So that whole thing, I just watered down and, and melted together when, when Willie Nelson showed up and did the outlaw thing and Michael Martin Murphy was doing this cosmic cowboy

00:48:03.250 - 00:48:26.360

thing, you know, and, and, uh, it was a quite a, quite a transformation, you know, during the eighties and seventies, late seventies and eighties there. So when you, um, would you mind actually playing a song from that first album? No, I think I can remember one.

00:48:28.090 - 00:49:17.699

Um, I see. I'll do this one. what I wrote. I find that. Oh, nice to meet you. This is a song I wrote for my dad. Um, it's called Fishing Labs and, uh, John played guitar on it. Just did a stellar job. Um, I told you

00:49:17.709 - 00:49:51.020

earlier, my dad was a musician but not by the time I, I met my daddy, he really wasn't playing at all. He was really steeped in building an insurance company in, in Houston. And so he, uh, he hit him when he hung it up, he hung

00:49:51.030 - 00:50:39.469

it up and he didn't even play recreationally at all. So I never really got to hear him play and I missed that. Yeah, I know. It's been quite a while. Got a job to get my ass through. Yeah, I've lost some weight. Do you know how

00:50:39.479 - 00:51:22.969

music is? Sometimes you're standing proud sometimes you're running. No, I don't know. Yeah, I saw your new car, dad. She's, what's that? You ask? Spending most of my time writing on some songs about the rocky. Remember sleepless night she played Till the morning Light Slips on

00:51:23.010 - 00:52:18.489

the show. Hear Me that time? Yeah. That done, you know, I really, in a crazy way old man, kind of wish we'd known each other way back. So I didn't know that she remarried. Well, I guess it's best that she found herself, that kind of

00:52:18.500 - 00:52:56.620

man. So I haven't made any plans myself. But, you know, I think I've finally figured out. But that will love. Remember the way you play you play with when you need a mama's smile when, no matter what was wrong. When you, with the song, she, yeah,

00:52:58.300 - 00:53:57.439

understand. Great. You will kind of wish we'd known each other way back. Oh, there's no way you can reach me. I'll be staying with some friends. Dad. I don't know how long I'll keep in touch. Yeah,

00:53:57.449 - 00:54:41.679

maybe Christmas. How does old John? You know, I wrote a song for him. Remember how you feel? Some strangers play that one again and all them back seats on. Yeah. Last too long. They never quite the same. The second. It's a crazy thing to say. Old

00:54:41.689 - 00:55:32.580

man. I kind of wish that I was driving three back. I guess I'll pack it up for now. Don't look like the Fisher back anyhow. Fishing Line. That's on the first record. Can you talk about some of the other albums that you've recorded? Well, we, uh,

00:55:33.909 - 00:55:57.870

we recorded, um, and um, gosh, I don't remember what it was but it was, I think it was like 10 years later in 90 in 88 uh is it 88? Gosh, I don't remember. But yeah, I went to, uh, well, about that time or 90 in

00:55:57.879 - 00:56:15.979

1990 I went to a, there was a young fellow named Will T Massey. And he was a very precocious uh songwriter and performer. And you used to hang out at this place called the Chicago House in, in Austin. And he was, he was too young to

00:56:15.989 - 00:56:34.570

even drink then. Uh but they, they let him slip in and stay in the shadows. Um He was only like 16 or 17 years old, but he was maybe 18. Uh but he was very, very talented and he's from San Angelo. And uh I befriended him

00:56:34.580 - 00:56:58.570

and, and sort of mentored him a little bit. But, uh uh he was already well on his way to being, you know, very powerful singer songwriter and, uh at, uh that, well, that was in the eighties, like the mid eighties and uh late eighties. And, uh

00:57:00.409 - 00:57:22.120

he, uh eventually he found a lady to represent him and we went out to Lubbock to Caldwell Studios where Lloyd Mains was holding forth there and, uh producing records and, uh, although Lloyd was a producer, he was also a phenomenal, multi instrumentalist. And, uh the Mains

00:57:22.129 - 00:57:40.270

Brothers were kind of a main state if you will, you know, all over, uh Texas and, and, uh Lloyd played with Joe and a lot of different uh other folks, but most notably Joe Eli, I guess, and uh we recorded this record for Will and I

00:57:40.280 - 00:57:57.719

played on it and, uh he flew me out there to play on and everything and, and he surprised me. Uh, one, it was about a week long session. We had, uh, Paul Pierce, he was on the drums and Roland Denny, I think was on the bass.

00:57:59.760 - 00:58:20.550

And, uh Lloyd just kind of took him under his wing and kind of helped him, like, take these songs that were already, you know, crude masterpieces, you know, and really polish them up and, and do a great presentation. Um, and, uh, well, Steve, I guess, was

00:58:20.560 - 00:58:36.699

playing drums and he kind of surprised me one morning. He came, we were having coffee before the session. He said he wanted to record one of my songs called on the sofa outside. I was really flattered and, uh, he did a really good job of it.

00:58:37.899 - 00:59:00.959

Um So anyway, he had done that and, and then she, her name was Diane Scott, I think was her name and she, uh, she underwrote the whole project and she, it was really a great project. The Jesse Taylor played electric guitar on it and, and there

00:59:00.969 - 00:59:23.639

were some loved legends, a lot of great players on it. And, uh, she, she garnered a deal somehow. She somehow will got her back, uh, a publisher. Um I can't remember his name but he wound up getting him a deal with MC A records. He got

00:59:23.649 - 00:59:50.469

a seven album deal with MC A records and Bruce Springsteen's producer was gonna produce him and, uh, he was on Austin City Limits and, uh, a made this really, really powerful but very Los Angeles type West Coast record. And uh I was playing in a club

00:59:50.479 - 01:00:16.750

in Austin. He got uh a pretty good chunk of change up front to, to side with MC A and I was playing this club in Austin and when I took a break, he said, George, you need to make another record. I said, well, yeah, you're not

01:00:16.760 - 01:00:48.080

likely that. And he said, no, he said I wanna pay for it. But yeah, you only have one stipulation. He said, you gotta let Lloyd means produce it. It has it. That's not a problem. So he just chucked out, you know, several $1000. And so me

01:00:48.090 - 01:01:10.959

and my bass player, uh Keith Carper and Scott Neubert, who was my lead player, multi instrumentalist. Uh at that time, uh we went out to uh Lubbock and recorded a record Harwood in, in three days, 3, 10 hour days, we knocked it out and uh just

01:01:10.969 - 01:01:33.379

did a little bit of overdubbing back in Austin after that. So that's where Hartwood came from through magnanimous and generous contributions of Will T Massey. And uh so that was at that time, that was a cassette album is what it, it wound up being. And it

01:01:33.389 - 01:01:53.270

never did go to vinyl because cassettes were popular in that. It's funny because, you know, when I head head on, people would say, do you have a cassette of that? I said, no. So what the, the next album I made uh Hartwood, people would say, uh

01:01:54.560 - 01:02:10.719

and I made a cassette album of it and people would say, do you have a CD of it? No, I was just getting into getting into the, I just thought, I thought I was on the cutting edge. But anyway, it, it did real well and sold

01:02:10.729 - 01:02:29.719

real well and, and it was a great, a great project. Uh Gene Elders played fiddle on it. He's a phenomenal uh fiddle player has been playing with George Strait since almost day one for like 50 years. Well, not 50 years. But anyway, did some beautiful work

01:02:29.729 - 01:02:52.479

on it. And uh uh so, yeah, you know, my flute flute player, Beth Gallagher, she some beautiful work on it too. So that's how that came to me. Harwood. Yeah. What came next? Well, next, I had a project that I never released. Uh It's kind of

01:02:52.489 - 01:03:09.239

a long story but it was a concept album called The Old Highway Cafe. And I had a benefactor out of Lubbock that uh had seen me play out there at a place called the Cody Cattle Company I think is what it was. And uh he was

01:03:09.250 - 01:03:37.090

in the oil business and uh he said he wanted to make a record with me. But I, unfortunately, I took, I tried to, to um uh how would you say? Uh I tried to basically poor boy the whole thing. And as a result, I had a

01:03:37.100 - 01:03:59.419

friend that was at UT that had access to the studio there and they had a state of the art 24 track, uh, the same rig that really, that Willie Nelson had, it was a, I forget what it's called, but the same 24 track studio set up.

01:04:00.360 - 01:04:17.020

Um, but he said we'll just have to do it when I have time to do it because he was still going to classes and he was just had, he just had the studio for part of, part of the time. He was, uh, he was working on

01:04:17.030 - 01:04:31.530

his bachelor's degree or something. And, uh, he was a musician, buddy, friend of mine, Bobby Roberts was his name. He had a group called Rat Creek. And so I said that's fine. You know, we'll do that. Well, we were kind of over our heads because he

01:04:31.540 - 01:04:50.149

had never done that recording in that kind of a sophisticated scenario. I mean, he was like, I think he was actually taking a class and recording at the time. So this was kind of like his lab time or whatever. So, and I produced it myself. Um,

01:04:51.239 - 01:05:15.889

which, uh, you know, so I, I got my friends to play on it and I kind of settled for, uh, you know, um, I wasn't, I wasn't, typically a producer. Has gotta be the one to say, you know, that's not gonna cut it. You need to

01:05:15.899 - 01:05:34.729

do it again, you know, or can you do, can you do this? Can you do that? Can you, can you go here or there? You know, I mean, a producer has got typically concept in their head as to what they want, you know, the record to

01:05:34.739 - 01:05:57.239

sound like. And each song is kind of a piece of that. Well, we did such a piece meal manner that, you know, we have to stop and start. We'd go in and we were, we were still kind of, uh, not really serious enough to where we

01:05:57.250 - 01:06:19.969

were still like smoking grass and, and partying a little bit. And, and so we got through with the, with the project and, and, and actually, Bobby was like, and it took a long time because we had to just go in like on a Wednesday night. We

01:06:19.979 - 01:06:38.860

need to have two or three hours and work on a thing and I'd have to bring, bring my buddy in and, and, uh, play and party and, but when we got through, the real kicker was when we got through with the whole thing. And I was

01:06:38.870 - 01:06:53.550

just saying, you know, I don't, and we weren't spending very much money from this investors money, you know, because he said I've got this much. What can you do with it? And he was just wanting me to cut a couple of songs that he really liked.

01:06:53.560 - 01:07:07.649

Well, I said, no, we can do a whole record with that. Well, um, and he kept ponying up more money and, and he liked what he was hearing and he said, well, if you need more, you know, and we end up with a, with an album

01:07:07.659 - 01:07:31.820

cover and going to a graphic artist, a photographer and, and, uh, but when we finished with the, the recording at that point, um, he was no longer gonna have access to the studio and there was a noise reduction that was, uh, it wasn't dolby, but it

01:07:31.830 - 01:07:52.439

was the other noise reduction um technology and I can't even think of what it was. But you couldn't just take this, this was a, a two inch 24 track tape. You couldn't just take it to the studio and mix it. You had DB X is what

01:07:52.449 - 01:08:16.560

it was DB X, whatever that is. So I had subsequently met uh a producer and musician named Steve Metter. And uh so he got into the picture and then he uh he found a studio in San Antonio and then one in Houston. Well, no, up in

01:08:16.569 - 01:08:37.060

Dallas at the, at the, oh, I forgot the name of the place. But anyway, uh so it just started getting real complicated and in the end, you know, it was like, we got a single out of the deal that was a pretty good single. But in

01:08:37.069 - 01:08:55.548

the end, it was like what it originally started off to be and, you know, this is like two years down the line, you know, and I had grown in terms of my songwriting, I thought, you know, and, and it was just not strong enough, you know,

01:08:55.559 - 01:09:22.208

product in the end. So it's still in the can, so to speak. And so then the next product, I guess that came out was probably the uh one gentle hand, which was um a compilation that I did along with some recordings that I made with a

01:09:22.219 - 01:09:41.020

fellow named John Kasner, who was a, a fellow musician, but also a producer and had a home recording studio and, and offered to give me some pro bono all the pro bono time to record my songs. And so there again, you know, it was, it was,

01:09:42.189 - 01:10:03.149

you know, an angel, so to speak. And uh so I recorded like five or six songs and at that time, that was 98 at that time, I had been uh subjected my, my family and I were subjected to a flood at our house and we got

01:10:03.160 - 01:10:22.029

like 2 ft of water. We lived on a creek, we got like 2 ft of water throughout our whole house. And it was, it was devastating. And uh Rod Kennedy had heard about it and he uh the, the producer of the folk festival and he had

01:10:22.040 - 01:10:41.979

a uh at that time, he had a uh a special festival. It was called the Phoenix Fund and it was a festival that was held in October um of every year. And it was a, it was a, a fund that was um allocated to musicians who

01:10:41.990 - 01:11:00.290

are in need of medical or, you know, some kind of financial buy uh no strings attached. I mean, it was, it was like a, you know, hand up and he sent me some money when he found out about my flood and everything and asked me if

01:11:00.299 - 01:11:16.959

I would play the Phoenix Foundation Festival, you know, to raise money for this good cause. And I said, sure. So that's when I, I put a compilation called One Gentle Hand Together, which was like songs I have recorded with John Cast and then a couple of

01:11:16.970 - 01:11:40.310

two or three off of Hartwood. So uh that was like nine songs I think in 98. And then after that, um I guess the live set probably happened after that. And that was a, that was an album I did with my, my Pickers. The live set

01:11:40.319 - 01:11:59.729

was a very uh-huh, I mean, how do I say it? I mean, it was like the top of the line folk shows on Saturdays in Austin through the University Station near Ket and Larry Monroe was like uh the DJ S DJ. I mean, he was an

01:11:59.740 - 01:12:24.729

incredible musicologist and very good knowledgeable and a great interviewer and all around guy. And he started doing these folkway shows on Saturday, uh these live shows and I mean, it, it, it captivated the, the whole town. I mean, anybody that was into the singer songwriters, folk,

01:12:24.740 - 01:12:49.990

you know, bluegrass, whatever would listen in. And so we got a live recording of that for the live set CD Walter. Um, um, most of his name was Walter. Uh, I can't think of his last name. I'm sorry. But anyway, he was a great engineer and

01:12:50.859 - 01:13:07.459

he engineered it, he edited it and put together and I had a CD, you know, and I had Beth Gallagher and Greg Whitfield, who I was at that time playing with and still him and Greg Lowry, who I'm still playing with and my bass player, Keith

01:13:07.470 - 01:13:29.600

Carper who's passed away. And Beth, I said, Beth, yeah. So we had like a five piece and it, uh that was my next project was set and I didn't need a whole lot to underwrite that because the recording was free. So, um then after that, I

01:13:29.609 - 01:13:57.299

did build a bridge, I think and build a bridge is, is more inspirational and faith based. And I did that at Tommy Bird Studio and I had some contributors for that album as well. Um And um that's when the, I got uh affiliated with the Builder

01:13:57.310 - 01:14:20.399

Bridge Foundation, which is uh it's a uh a faith based organization out of Philadelphia that sends performers of all different disciplines, artists of all different disciplines, all over the world to uh these troubled hotspots where people are in need of some kind of uh healing, healing

01:14:20.410 - 01:14:39.930

through the arts is, is their byline build a bridge. And so they adopted the song and they uh sentence around several locations was on their website for a while and translated to some different languages. And I know I went down to Guatemala was translated. That was,

01:14:39.939 - 01:15:00.169

that was really rewarding to see that happen and to see that it was doing what it was supposed to be doing. So that was a, that was a, a faith based uh project. And then, uh I think after that was another live project live at the

01:15:00.180 - 01:15:18.629

Brown Theater, which was new Brambles with just me and my guitar player Greg Whitfield. And there again, I didn't need a budget and I had to Randy and Julius Salzer recorded and videotaped the program. So I got a DVD out of it as well. It was

01:15:18.729 - 01:15:47.890

a beautiful old theater that had been restored. Um And uh she not gonna leaving more now. Oh, small town sundown. Then I did, I think I did a small town sundown before, yeah, before the live at the text and that was a concept album. Um And

01:15:47.899 - 01:16:05.779

I, but I was pretty much, I pretty much look at songs that being little movies. And I thought, well, if I put several songs together, I have one big movie. So I had some songs that had already been written and some that I wrote specifically for

01:16:05.790 - 01:16:25.470

the story that I came up with, which is about a small hill country fellow that's raised by his grandparents when he's, uh, like two. His parents are killed in a car wreck and, and his grandparents and farmers raise him in this little fictitious town called Windmill,

01:16:25.479 - 01:16:53.629

Texas. And, uh, well, I really called it a movie and song because I had this whole story written which I later put out in, in a booklet form. And, uh, I did that at Tommy Birds studio and I had, uh, Megan who was, uh, he, I'd

01:16:53.640 - 01:17:16.319

done a show with his wife Sarah Pierce, uh over here at the main street theater and Tom. And uh after we did this round, it was her and I and Connie Mims, I think Connie had invited the two of us. After I finished there, mel began,

01:17:16.500 - 01:17:31.770

said you need to make another album. And I said, well, I don't have a budget and he said, don't worry about it come over to my studio. And so he had a state of the art studio at his place in Austin there, crib works is what

01:17:31.779 - 01:17:52.660

it's called. And so, uh at his convenience and when he had time I went over and started recording and got all the guitar and all the vocals to all 12 songs done at his studio. And it was completely pro bono, I mean, and, and, you know,

01:17:52.870 - 01:18:12.830

we're talking about, you know, three or $4000 at least probably worth of recording studio time that he just gave me and in the hopes that, you know, he wanted to produce and flesh out the whole album. But I didn't have, I didn't have a budget at

01:18:12.839 - 01:18:37.129

all, but I took the vocals and guitar and I pressed up a limited edition of the 12 songs, you know, in sequence and I use that as a tool to raise money from my supporters fans and what and friends to finish the project. And, uh I

01:18:37.140 - 01:18:57.740

didn't go through that um go fund me and, and all those internet kind of things. I just got the word out, you know, and took him to gigs and said, you know, you can have um you know, this limited edition, you can have as many copies

01:18:57.750 - 01:19:15.669

of this as you want, signed and whatever, but it was just me and the guitar and uh you know, I didn't stipulate any, I don't think I, I put down what you need to do, contribute any particular kind of a man or anything. But, you know,

01:19:15.779 - 01:19:34.020

enough people came, came forward and, and pony it up enough to where I, I've finished the record, but I finished it at Tommy Bird's Bird House Studio. So I had the guitar and vocals already done and I think he's producing it at Tommy Tommy Bird Studio,

01:19:34.080 - 01:19:56.310

which is uh uh and he gave me a real good deal too. So, and Merle meanwhile had, had gotten real busy and with Sarah and with other projects. So that was small town sundown. Uh And then the Brown happened after that and then uh I guess

01:19:56.319 - 01:20:23.169

that's um the one that happened after that then has been uh the songs form, which was produced by Taylor Pie and that was me and her and four other artists each with two songs, a piece in a live venue, recording uh original songs. So that's 07

01:20:24.089 - 01:20:47.839

or whatever. Do you wanna play um something from um Sundown? Yeah, I play, uh I think I can use the title character. This is kind of the, the centerpiece and where it all started. I, I travel a lot in the hill country all over in Texas,

01:20:47.850 - 01:21:36.870

hill country playing, you know, playing different gigs and cowboy churches and uh you get a lot of windshield time and uh this character is sort of clam in the shotgun seat and his story, you know, it's, it's very much a, one of the reviewers said

01:21:36.879 - 01:22:00.020

it was, it was a Hallmark movie. So it's very much about God, family and country, you know, but this character, uh this is kind of where it all started with this character and his story, you know, and uh it sort of sums up, I think the,

01:22:00.029 - 01:22:47.200

the, the whole theme of the, of the album. And it's uh this is called Small Town Sundown with the song Walk and Flu 63 Bonneville. The all important showroom floor. I paid cash for it, the money I had working somewhere on the rigs offshore

01:22:49.750 - 01:23:28.109

times. I still put a top down, go cruising across the countryside. Just feel freedom's wind blowing through my head. Thank the good. She was built in the is when there's country to pray and work that I had made in the USA on the tag of my

01:23:28.120 - 01:24:12.379

blue colored shirt. I've been married to the so bye since 19 52. Oh, just gotten strong. All the living you've been through. She still keeps the letters that I sent. I was all fighting in that cool. Mm. Tied up with her yellow hair ribbon by her

01:24:12.390 - 01:25:05.620

by bullet. Her not stand. You know, it's still most holiday now these days we don't take quite as many steps. We all each other just this time. And you back in 1958 the six grandkids, they've given us three grades. The young one still spends summers with

01:25:05.629 - 01:25:49.209

us. They love mama. She takes him out in her car so they can know the feeling you see they was on. You try to show sometimes we lay in the yard, try to count on them stuff. Catch dinner out of Blue Cyprus. I've been going to

01:25:50.649 - 01:26:37.089

a white church since Sunday. Have tried. Well, plant me in that church. Some over mal is too far. It's the closest thing to heaven. Long as earth I ever seen and Creek Win and through shimmering cotton. So I'm not much on Bible power. Yeah, I believe

01:26:37.100 - 01:27:27.709

Jesus was a quiet man and forgiveness and love were the biggest part, but he tried to help us understand. Yeah, I lock this filling station back in 1964. I still clean and win. I still check you off the day when my work is done. Drive them

01:27:27.720 - 01:28:12.509

out. I sit on the back porch with the love of my life and watch a small town. So, so he's the, uh, in the movie, he's the, uh the guy that runs the, uh the art house where are they? Characters go play

01:28:12.520 - 01:28:43.950

Dominoes and uh and the young protagonist goes to hang out with him. Um Yeah, so you um play gigs in and around Austin and throughout the state. So how has touring and the venues changed throughout your career? Well, there's still not a lot of listening rooms.

01:28:44.459 - 01:29:07.049

Um And I find that although the, the Texas singer songwriter has sort of garnered uh itself into a genre now, I think, uh over the years, there's been, you know, a lot of folks that have emerged as Texas singer songwriters or come here and, you know,

01:29:07.819 - 01:29:27.390

um started their career. Um But there's not, you know, we don't sell, we don't sell boobs. And, and if you don't, I mean, that's really where the money is for a club owner is alcohol because, you know, the, the percentage of mark up is, you know,

01:29:27.399 - 01:29:55.609

exponential. So we don't sell booze. And so if you want to really, I have a profitable kind of scenario. Uh, I guess they haven't, there's not a lot of them that, that, uh can do that. Um, and so it's really difficult. I mean, frankly it's just,

01:29:55.620 - 01:30:16.890

it's really difficult and I've, I've started a finding other ways, like I've, I've started the portrait songs, which is something I really enjoy doing anyway, is writing character portraits of people. And so it occurred to me that, um, the way you hire someone to paint a

01:30:16.899 - 01:30:32.200

portrait of someone, uh you could hire me to write them a song. And so I sort of went through the mechanics of it and the logistics of how I could make it happen. And um, so we, I have a website to that effect at portrait songs

01:30:32.209 - 01:30:49.810

dot com and, and I've already successfully done like about eight or 10. Uh It's only been less than a year in the, in the, in the making. And uh, and I have a, a few, uh I have a grant for, to do some, for people in

01:30:49.819 - 01:31:09.810

hospice now, um through Swan Songs there in Austin. And, uh but it's been real rewarding and it's a way that I can still do my craft and, and, and make a living and not have to spend so much time on the road because I'm still working

01:31:09.819 - 01:31:31.640

like, you know, 12 to 18 dates a month, there's a lot of windshield time, a lot of, a lot of driving time and uh you know, there's a lot of deer out there, frankly, especially where I go through the, the two lane back roads. And, uh,

01:31:31.649 - 01:31:56.910

but they are and I've got some songwriting showcases that I do where I host other songwriters. Um, so I have residency, couple residencies doing that and that's, I really enjoy doing that too because, you know, I get to, you know, uh, under, you know, them coming

01:31:56.919 - 01:32:18.660

to a gig and, and plus get to hear some great songs and meet and really get to know, you know, so songwriters and a lot more in depth while, you know, we're spending two hours on stage together, swapping songs. And, uh I've had uh some pretty

01:32:18.669 - 01:32:38.569

good success in co writing with several of my guests that I've really gotten to know and gotten a feel for through that, that kind of a showcase scenario. But there are still some great festivals like Curville Folk Festival, which I'll be playing this year. Um Woody

01:32:38.580 - 01:32:58.819

Fest, Woody Guthrie Festival, I'll be playing this year. Um There's one called Michael Hearn's Big Barn Dance and which I hope to be playing this year. I played last year. So there's still, you know, some, some festivals out there where you can, you can be a

01:32:58.830 - 01:33:20.149

singer songwriter and reach a lot of people that understand what it is you're doing. And the internet is allow for an online presence that has been good for the singer songwriter in terms of helping us survive. Um And there are a lot of house concerts and

01:33:20.160 - 01:33:39.000

those are, have sprouted up. The whole grassroots movement is, has been very supportive and it's, it's really a, in a lot of ways, it's a perfect venue because it's, it's a win win. The audience gets to hear you at your best in an intimate setting and

01:33:39.009 - 01:34:02.169

you get an audience that's a listening audience so you can do your best. And I have cowboy churches. Uh I have a residency at one and then I have others that I play intermittently as well. So, so as you've moved through your career, have you been

01:34:02.180 - 01:34:30.009

drawn to different lyrical themes or have you changed the way that you play or what kind of changes have you made throughout time? Well, I think I've definitely leaned uh more toward country in, in some of my, that vernacular, some of my riding, I still have

01:34:30.020 - 01:34:56.830

a real strong folk roots, you know, and, and it, you know, it comes out and some of my, some of us. So we just straight up stories, you know, that I tell um through that, that kind of a um uh style, but I've, I've leaned more

01:34:56.839 - 01:35:24.819

towards and, and come to appreciate country music more and more um in its simplicity and its beauty and um you know, its poignancy, you know, it's less is more even though modern day country is, is kind of all over the map. But you know, real true,

01:35:25.490 - 01:35:50.799

classic country you work, you know, I couldn't appreciate that more, I think, and lean more in that direction and I'm teaching myself right now, uh, how to play piano. And so that's a, it opens up a lot in terms of your, you're writing vocabulary, you know,

01:35:51.310 - 01:36:13.149

to have that kind of an instrument, you know, it's very cinematic and it's very, yeah, uh, majestic, you know, with your guitars, you know, it's, it's just a different, a different field. So, uh I guess that's, you know, and, and as far as growth goes with

01:36:13.160 - 01:36:30.100

writing, I, I feel like I can trust my instincts a lot more now than when I first started. And, you know, when I do writing workshops and work with, with song, other songwriters, you know, I mean, uh I'm able to kind of see where they're walking

01:36:30.109 - 01:36:48.850

down the wrong direction with, with their, you know, their riding or their approach or whatever. I mean, I can see it's gonna be a dead end for him and, but that just, that just comes with doing it. I mean, I've been doing it for, I'm 60

01:36:48.859 - 01:37:20.569

I'll be 69 this September Lord willing. So when I started, when I was like 16 writing songs, I mean, so what is that? 50 6, 53 years, something like that. So I know I've gotten a wag, I've made all, almost all the mistakes several times and,

01:37:21.160 - 01:37:37.049

you know, so I think I've got a pretty good handle on, on how to write a song and what dead end road not to start down. Because I, I can see now there's a dead end at the end of that one. You know, I'm gonna go

01:37:37.060 - 01:37:50.620

back over here and try this one, you know, but that's just some time for me. It was, I'm a slow study too because it took me a while to, I think, to really be as proficient as I am at writing now. And I, and I do

01:37:50.629 - 01:38:09.180

feel real comfortable and confident right now as a songwriter, you know, that I can write something that connects to people. You know, that's what's important. That's the greatest reward, huh? I said that's what's important. Right. Yeah. And that's exactly right. You know, and that's what's kept

01:38:09.189 - 01:38:31.160

me doing. This is when people come up and say, oh, man, that really hits home, you know. And, you know, it makes, it makes you feel as though what you're doing is important and makes a difference, you know, and I really look at it as in

01:38:31.169 - 01:38:49.520

the end as being a form of healing. I mean, musicians should think of themselves as healers and when you play in a nursing home, I mean, you can, you, you can know right off the bat that you're making a difference in these people's world and some

01:38:49.529 - 01:39:13.049

of the Alzheimer's people that, you know, are pretty much mute when you play that certain song they'll start singing. You know, you hit that, that place in their heart and their mind with music that you can't hit with anything else any other way. Is there anything

01:39:13.060 - 01:39:39.959

else you'd like to add? I just really appreciate you doing this and, uh, all the energy and time and effort and, uh, love that you're putting into this project and, and, uh, helping to, uh, archive and to preserve, uh, where we all came from and the

01:39:39.970 - 01:40:04.790

analog world that we grew up in and, and how we didn't turn out all that bad by reading books and, and taking guitar lessons and, um, in this, uh, modern age. Well, thank you so much for coming in. It's been my pleasure and honor.