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Hello, today is March 5, 2021. My name is Gordan Liu and I'm here with Gautam Nayar to interview him for the Houston Asian American Archive. I want to start off by asking when and where were you born?

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So, Gordan, thank you again for having me for this interview. I was born actually in Florida in Boynton Beach, in December 5, 1978. So a long time ago, 42 years, soon to be

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43. [laughs] And where did you spend most of your childhood? Uh, so most of my childhood actually was spent for the first about five years or so I was living in in Florida, almost six years.

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And then my parents moved back to India in 1984, probably around October time, October of '84. And then my dad is— was retired, he's retired now— retired medical doctor, and he went back to India because he wanted to do nonprofit work.

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So he went back to India from '84 to almost, just almost end of '93, almost, almost 10 years we were living in India. And so I grew up in India. And then I moved back to USA just when I turned about 15 years of age, started high

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school back in Florida. And my dad actually went back, like I said, he wanted to do nonprofit work. So his idea was he wanted to set up a retirement nursing facility. I think my dad was kind of ahead of his time. Because generally in our culture in India, the grandparents and all, they live with

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their family. So there really wasn't much of a concept of a retirement home back then. But he, he went back and that was his dream: he wanted to give something back to his home country, which you know, a lot of people, they don't do that. They come here and they make their fortune, they make their fame, and they don't really

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want to go back to their ancestral country. But he realized after about 9 years, almost 10 years there that he had done as best he could, and it's better for him to come back to the United States. It's a very— it's a tough system.

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You know, we didn't have a, we didn't have a phone, phone line, landline for four years. Because you had to bribe people in order to get anything done in India. And it just, everything had to be done. Everything had to be bribed in some fashion.

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It's a very corrupt country that way. So he just after living over here, where there's none of that, you know, there is corruption, but it's on a different level. You know, they they just— it was very hard for my parents, and they tried and they came

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back and they— he restarted his medical practice in Florida. And I finished up high school in Florida. Then I went to college in DC at American University. Then I took about a year off and was

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working as a paralegal. I spent some time in the public defender's office in Florida with an internship. And I would go to the jail in the morning and do internship interviews, what's called "intake interviews" for people who were arrested the night before.

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Pretty soon I realized I didn't want to do criminal defense work, there's no way. And then I went to law school for one year. And unfortunately, I flunked out. I tried very hard, but I couldn't make it.

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I just, I just didn't make it. And after that, I kind of was a little bit lost. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do because I always had this idea I wanted to be a professor. And I wanted actually to be a law school professor actually.

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But um, I couldn't [laughs] quite do that because to be a law school professor, you have to get through law school. You can't be a professor otherwise. And finally, what I did was I went to get my master's degree in public administration at a small school in North Carolina, UNC Pembroke.

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And after that, one of the people over there was, you know, really pushing me, he was my director, Nicholas Giannatasio. And he really pushed me to do my PhD at Rutgers in New Jersey. So I interviewed at Rutgers and there was two or three other schools I looked at, and I

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like New Jersey, I liked the program, and the people were very friendly. And so I moved up there, and I was there about four years. And then I finished up and I came to Houston, and I've been at Texas Southern University here in Houston since 2009.

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And then after about five years of being at Texas Southern, I decided I wanted to go back to school. So I re-enrolled at Rice University, and I started the master of liberal studies, which is a part-time master's program in the Glasscock School. And then I graduated.

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[laughs] And now back to teaching full time. Yeah. Sounds like you have a lot of life experiences. Yeah, a lot of interesting ups and downs. [laughs] Too much too much traveling I guess.

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[GL: (laughs).] Moved around a lot, but I've been in the same state now 12 years. I guess that counts for something. That's the longest time I think I've been in a place. Mm hm. Going back to your foundational years, could you describe

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some of your early memories living in India? Yeah. You know, moving from the United States, which is a supremely wealthy country to go to India, which I think the latest thing that I looked at was, I think 7% of Indians have a high school degree.

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So it's a very, very poor country, and 70% of Indians still live in villages, for example. So it gives you an idea how poor their country is, I think that was one thing I noticed immediately when I first moved there. You know, you go on the streets, you're walking, there's cows, and pigs, and

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buffaloes, just dogs, like, just everywhere, like, just—you know, it's strange. You see cows, dogs, and these animals, you know, literally next to automobiles. It's a very strange system in that way. It's a weird, you know, it's just strange.

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I guess— might have been like how the United States was maybe 100 years ago, when they were, you know, the car was first coming out, and you would see farm animals in Idaho and Iowa. Maybe that's what it was like. It was just very strange to me.

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I saw the abject poverty of that, you know, because what happens is, a lot of times, farmers can't feed their cows and buffaloes. So they just have them wander around just eating up garbage wherever they can basically and come back in the evening to milk them, and start the process all over again.

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So that was one thing that really stuck out at me that I hadn't thought about or noticed in the United States, you don't really notice that as much. You know, there's poverty here, but it's on a different level, you know. So that's something that I didn't notice growing up a lot.

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And, you know, I come from a family. I'm actually a third generation professor and educator on both sides of my family. People in my family, beginning from my maternal and paternal grandparents have either been teaching as in high schools, as principals or teachers or different

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professors. So that was something I really thought about growing up, you know. Yeah. And how— could you describe the process of learning about your family's history and your lineage? Well, really, you know, growing up, I was very lucky.

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I spent a lot of time with my grandparents growing up. And I was fortunate that, you know, whatever I could make time with them we'd— they lived about five hours away from where we live, but during the winter break time and summer break, I would try to make an effort to visit them.

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My parents tried to, pushed me to go also, you know. And I remember growing up hearing a lot of stories about how they struggled. My maternal grandfather, for example, he really struggled. He had three master's degrees towards the end of his lifetime, and he was on a

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Fulbright scholarship at one time. He really struggled a lot. He actually had to run away from his family because they didn't want him to study anymore. They came from a family of shopkeepers.

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And they were like, "You don't need to get beyond eighth grade education," you know, "This-this is fine." So he said, "No, I want to go all the way. And I want to go teach in high school, I want to be a principal, actually." So he hitchhiked his way to another city, being 11, 12 years old.

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And there was fortunately a very wealthy uncle. And so the uncle basically took him under his wing and said, "Okay, I'll-I'll pay for your education. And, you know, whatever else you need, I'll-I'll provide." And so my grandfather, you know, he did his bachelor's, then he did one master's, another

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masters, a third master's. So he had three master's degrees: Punjabi, Hindi and-and English, you know, towards the end of his lifetime. And he was a principal of several schools.

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And then what happened was, he met my-my maternal grandmother, and she was a schoolteacher until they married. They had my mother and then they had three other kids. And my paternal grandfather, similar type of background.

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He-he married my grandmother, and he finished his PhD at University of Minnesota in 1948. He came here in 1946 2 years just so he could finish PhD in biology and he was doing something about hybrid of plants.

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And so I grew up hearing these stories, you know, how my-my— most of my family, I guess my father's side, is very science background. I'm really not science backed, I'm more social science. I'm probably more of my maternal grandfather's side.

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But you know, I grew up hearing these stories. And I know one story I remember particular I really liked telling a lot of my students at TSU is that my-my paternal grandfather worked for the Defense Institute in India. And what they had done at that time was they were trying to use

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plants and they were trying to hybrid them, cross pollinate different plants. You know, the United States is a, like I mentioned, is a supremely wealthy country. And when we go to war against other countries, for example, we use the big giant C-130 airplanes.

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And we throw out 50 tanks with these big big parachutes that are very, very strong and they can absorb the impact when they hit the ground. India wasn't that, wasn't that wealthy. So my grandfather worked with a group of scientists that came up with a clever way to

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hybridize a type of bamboo so that when they would go to war against Pakistan— India had I think three or four conflicts with Pakistan, they would throw these tanks out, even though the parachutes themselves were not the same type of quality as United States parachutes, but the tanks would have these

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type of bamboo sort of like rugs underneath them that absorbed and cushioned the impact, so the-the tanks wouldn't splinter to pieces. And that was something that he was very proud about, you know, worked on this project. But you know, of course, the thing is that he never made any money off of it

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because it was a government classified secret. You know he worked for the Indian government, it was all classified. [laughs] Whereas you know, if he worked for the United States, maybe he worked for the Defense Department or maybe worked for (?) or something, maybe he could have capitalized

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on that. But, you know, you really can't do that because it's classified. So that was one of the stories that I like to tell my students about, it was kind of neat. Like, you know, that's kind of what pushed me a lot into education and teaching.

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Cool, and what values do you remember your family instilling in you as a child? And how do you remember they passed down those values? I mean, one thing was about like having a lot of integrity and trying to be truthful about

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things. That was something very important—my dad, and my mom. You know, I think I was fortunate, in some ways— many ways probably, that I wasn't like a typical Asian family with like an Asian "tiger mom." And there's not that— was not that push push. You know, a lot of Indian kids that I know, they get pushed into

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medicine. And I think some of them are not that happy actually what they're doing. But you know, they got pushed into it, they got pushed into it. I was very fortunate. My father went to a really good university. You know, his university only accepts 50 applicants a year, and

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they get 2000 more applicants each year. So they have a very, very tiny percentage of acceptance. And my mom did something called the IAS exam, which is Indian Administrative Service exam, which is similar to our State Department exam in the United States.

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And it's very difficult to get through. She made it through, she didn't really practice anything because she married my dad, but they came from very, very pressurized environments. And I think they really didn't want to put a lot of pressure on me as much for my

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education, you know. I was lucky that way, I think. But the whole thing was that if you're going to do something— I know one thing my parents would say over and over again: if you're going to do something, you know, do it well,

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do it right, be prepared for something, you know. If it's gonna take some more time, that's okay. But be prepared. But I think a lot of times— one of the things I know I make mistakes, and sometimes I'm very impatient, I want to try to get things done fast.

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But the reality is, there's a lot of things in life that you cannot get done fast, you have to go slow. And that's actually ironically what I've learned in teaching. And I do a lot of my teaching— my students and all, I try to make them understand that. The law students get very impatient over things, they want change to happen rapidly,

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they want to have a high score rapidly on an exam. But the truth is that it takes a lot of work and time and patience to get, you know, good grades and to get things accomplished. So that's something I work on a lot.

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And I'm— I wish— that was one thing I wish my parents had kind of pushed a little more to accept. I didn't, I didn't really have that. There were other things they helped me with. Gotcha. Much of your current work deals with a lot about

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racism and structural inequality. Can you recall early moments where you just started to understand how injustice worked in our world? I mean, I think the earliest memory of mine I have now, and I think about this sometimes

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when people, you know, ask questions about these kind of things. I think the earliest memory I think I may recall, and sort of a sidebar to your question, you know, with regard to racism, was— I must have been, I must have— maybe 4 years old, I think.

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And I was at— I think I was in kindergarten, actually in Florida. And I was with a group of my classmates, and we went to some, some type of Christmas tree something. And I remember there was a police officer there.

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It was a white police officer, and he might have been a young-ish guy, I don't really remember. But I remember the way he was looking at me from kind of a distance. And I think back to that, it wasn't really an unfriendly type of look. It made me a little uncomfortable, I guess, even though I was about 4 years old, I wasn't

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sure why he was staring at me. And I reflect upon this lots of times wondering, was that really something that, that was racist? The way he looked at me and made me feel uncomfortable? Or was it the fact that the police officer was very curious, "Who is this brown skinned

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boy with a bunch of other white kids?" You know, I went to a private school. And I think I might have been the only person of color in that class. I'm sure I have pictures from kindergarten somewhere.

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And I'm quite sure I was the only person, maybe I'm one of two Indian kids. I don't think there were any African American, Hispanic kids in 1984 in that class, I don't think so. And my parents, they live in a very wealthy area.

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I think my dad told me that when he first came there 1975, '76, he might have been one of the only two people the whole city who owned a convertible Mercedes. I mean, it was just, you know, it was just a different time back then in Boynton Beach.

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You know, I look back on that and I wonder often sometimes, the way the police officer looked at me, you know, I guess it might have been one instance of racism in a way. Because I was being discriminated because I was being stared at.

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Maybe not in a negative fashion, necessarily, but what does a 4 year old kid know, you know? But I sometimes wonder about this, was it because that there was a curiosity from a police officer? Or was it something that— "How does this kid, does this kid belong here?" Because

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everybody else around was white, you know. I just don't know. But that was one instance that I think a lot about, you know. And I guess the one thing that I reflect upon that is that, you know, when you look at racism and discrimination, and they're two separate

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things, of course, you can have racism with the discrimination. But you know, you can't— well, you could have discrimination without the racism, you could certainly be discriminatory about things. But you can't really have racism without the discrimination.

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They have— those two have to go together. And sometimes I think about that and wonder, you know, was that my earliest experience? You know, so that was one experience I think back on. Um, I was very fortunate, I'll be very honest with you.

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I think pretty much most of the time I was in Florida, in high school, there was a couple of instances, maybe when— I think a Spanish teacher— I remember one, one instance. It was a Spanish teacher in my high school. I was joking with two white guys who are surfers, and I made a joke, you know,

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something that was like, "Surf's up dude." And you know, people kind of laughed, and they got— one of them got upset. He said, you know, "Oh, do you want to go to the," you know, "I'm gonna go to the Kwik-E-Mart afterwards," you know, references the Simpsons character.

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And I said, "You know, that-that's not very nice. That's- that's very different." And the Spanish teacher said, "Hey, you can't say that." I said, "I don't understand. I- he can say this to me, but I can't make jokes about Surf's up?" That

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seems very biased, you know. That-that was one experience I remember. Um, otherwise, to be honest with you, I think the worst time of my life was much later in life, actually. I was about close to about 23 years of age when 9/11 happened.

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And I was living in Washington, DC. Um, I was working in DC. I wasn't there when 9/11 happened that day, I was actually in India. I came back on the 16th of September.

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And I remember just thinking, you know, I'm not Arab, I'm not Muslim, but boy, I-I know what racism feels like now, [laughs] I know what discrimination feels like now. It was-it was just the way people looked at you. It was a different look. And I was very fortunate that, you

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know, I was older. I remember distinctly, you know, before 9/11, I used to sometimes have facial hair, I used to have a goatee actually. I could never finally grow out a beard because my— I just don't have enough facial hair, [laughs] the hormones or whatever.

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But after 9/11, it was gone. It was gone. I never, I never bothered after that. I was afraid, you know. It was just a different world.

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So I guess those are some of the experiences that I can talk about, you know. Yeah. And what was it like growing up in a predominantly white community? And do you remember times where your— how you

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felt about that changed or evolved? Yeah, I mean, you know, I grew up mostly, you know— it's a strange thing, actually, in some ways, because, you know, I was growing up mostly with pretty much 98, 99% of people were white when I was in Boynton Beach, Florida in-in elementary school and

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kindergarten. And then you move to India and everybody around you is brown. But you know, people don't think of me in India as "Indian Indian." They're like "You're Indian American." You're what's called in the slang term is "Firangi."Firangi is a foreigner. It's not really a derogatory term, it's just— you're a foreigner, you

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know? And I guess it's-it's-it feels weird because I didn't really fit in over there in India, because they're like, "Well you're not technically really Indian. You're— when you speak Hindi," which is one of the languages, "you speak with an American accent. So you're not really Indian." And then I come over here in the United States,

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and it's a little strange also, in some ways, because you're not really considered "American American" unless you've been here for more than three generations, I guess. And so you're Indian American. Or I guess you intermarry enough that you basically get lumped into being like a

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third or fourth generation American now. But it— since I'm a second generation American, it's a little strange that way because you're kind of trying to find your place. And you're bicultural because you have half of your family is “Indian Indian,” other

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half— other people that you're trying to interact with are American. It's a weird balancing act in some ways. I have a 3 year old son right now and it's gonna be interesting to see how he is when he interacts with people and all because, you know, he— my wife is Indian Indian.

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So it's— he might actually have more of a bicultural role that I might have, actually, in some ways. But yeah, I mean, that's a strange way. The only way I can think is what, you know, going to your question is, you know, to be able to navigate these two worlds is very different.

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You know, there's all these different cultural mores and social norms and etiquette with white culture. And it was very strange to me, I guess I can talk a little about this. You know, being at Rice, I was 5 years in the master's program.

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I don't— I never had a single professor of color. And I look back on those five years in the master's program. We didn't have any Hispanic, there was no transgender, there was no, you know, Black or Indian, there was no Asian, you know, there was no bicultural.

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It was, it was all white professors, actually. I have very few classmates who were a different color than white. But then I leave that class and I go to TSU, and 99% of my people around me are all African American. It's a-it's a weird dynamic for me, I guess, you know.

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I think, you know, I guess I consider myself very fortunate in many ways that I grew up in India, because I could navigate one culture while being American. Like I think one of the big things for success in the United States is to juggle and navigate different cultures, you know, if you want to be successful.

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And I think that's true of any field, actually, you go into. It doesn't really matter. But I think the people who are not able to do that, I think those are the people who are not that successful when it comes to so many things.

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You know, it's just interesting, I guess, you know, I really think about your question, I really think about that because it's just there's so-so many little nuances, social mores, and it could be generational also, sometimes. You know, I picked up on that.

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"Black" may not be as accepted (?) as say "African American" now, possibly. And then there's a new term "BIPOC" versus when I was growing up, it was "POC," "people of color," or just "minorities," you know. So it's-it's also very interesting that we— how to have navigational, you know, cultural

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strength, you know. I don't really know what the answer is. And I know that in 20 years, when I'm 62, it'll be different also in that time, you know, so. Yeah, I do think about that a lot.

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You know, how things change over time, you know. You know, my parents, you know, they-they're— my dad's about 77. And my mom's about 74. And my dad tells me stories. He says, "You know, when I came to the United States," and

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he came here in 1968 in Flint, Michigan, he did residency. He said, "You know, it's amazing, one day—" this was about 5 or 10 years ago, we went to a restaurant. He's like, "When I came to Michigan, '68 and 60s, late 60s, early 70s. He said, "You wouldn't see African Americans in the restaurants.” It

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wasn't just about like banning African Americans from restaurants. He said, "You just wouldn't see that." It just— it wasn't culturally, like the norm, except maybe maybe in major big cities. He said it was also the fact that a lot of people could not even afford to eat outside

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of the house. It was just restaurants were not, you know, like that. But I reflect upon that: how much there has been progress over time, you know. And I, you know, I should say this also. My dad, you know, he's-he's also been very involved with racial

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equity, racial-racial, you know, changes. I mean, my dad actually used to do work at University of Miami Medical School where he still serves as a tenured— or sorry, not a tenure, but he's a, he's an adjunct professor. And he was— he got there in 1973.

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And his chair of his department, Lynnn Carmichael was somebody who was very, very progressive in their views. He would actively encourage the medical residents to go on to work in the community. So my dad actually would go and I remember one of the stories was he'd go to the local

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jail, and do volunteer work as a medical doctor. Um, and he-he treated, you know, people who were like in the Bloods and the Crips, and he would tell me stories about that growing up, where he would have, you know, a Blood member or a Crip member, and my dad would insist that they would take off all the chains of

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the gang leader. And I remember he told me that, you know, the prison guards would be like, "You know, this is a violent person. You can't just take the chains off." He's like, "Yeah, but I have to examine the patient. Can't—I can't examine them with all these chains on, you know, you have to take

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the chains off." That was very strange; even the-even the prisoner was surprised by hearing about that. So I guess I grew up with different norms, you know, cultural social norms about that, you know? Gotcha. And can you describe some influential mentors

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or role models in your upbringing? Yeah, I mean, you know, it's probably cliche to say it, I mean, a lot people might say this, but really, my parents. You know, I really-I really feel like my parents were my best role models

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ever. A lot of people, to give up a very comfortable life they had in the United States— my family was making very good money, you know, very comfortable life, medical doctor, in the 80s waiver for HMOs and managed care and everything, you know? [laughs] Doctors are doing really well financially.

00:24:49.030 - 00:25:02.400

I don't think they do that well anymore now, you know? But they were doing very well. To give all of that up, move to India, you know. I mean like I mentioned earlier, my- my family didn't even have a landline for four

00:25:02.400 - 00:25:14.420

years. Sometimes people can't believe that: "How could you go without having a phone for four years?" You know, we just managed. It just—it was normal for the electricity to go out. There was running blackouts all the time.

00:25:15.340 - 00:25:25.990

For them to give all of that up over here and go back and just not take a paycheck for nine years. They didn't earn any money for nine years. They lived off their savings. You know, I don't know how many parents can do that.

00:25:25.990 - 00:25:38.960

I don't know how many role models you could have in your life that can do that. And then we came back to the United States, my parents had to start from scratch all over again. I remember the first month or two we moved into the house, my parents didn't even have a bed. They slept on the floor.

00:25:39.850 - 00:25:51.280

You know, they got me a bed. And they made sure I had a bed and a mattress and everything. And, you know, I was comfortable. But I don't know how many other parents can do that. And I see that now with my 3 year old.

00:25:51.280 - 00:26:03.950

My wife and I, we make our own sacrifices for him. Sleeping probably a big one, you know, being a terrible twos and threes. But I mean, I-I don't know if I could make those kinds of sacrifices. I— maybe I could, I guess.

00:26:04.220 - 00:26:16.550

But I don't know. I don't know if my wife and I could go back to India. I don't think we could ever really do that. Just, we're too comfortable now at this place. And I-I also see the-the kind of sacrifices my parents made in

00:26:16.550 - 00:26:33.570

India, and the kind of idealism they had— maybe even naivety, you could say. I don't think I would be able to have that. I think that, you know, the corruption is so endemic in India, unfortunately, that it, you know— like literally, for example, I read that maybe only 2%

00:26:33.570 - 00:26:49.030

of Indians, and it's 1.2 billion population, maybe only 2% of Indians actually pay income tax. That's it. I mean, how does the country function? [laughs] You know, because people find all kinds of clever ways to get out of income tax. They, you know, they find all kinds of clever ways: bribing, and, you

00:26:50.120 - 00:26:58.260

know, things like that. I just, I— my parents never did that. They never did anything, they always paid their taxes, they were very fair. People were, I mean, amazed.

00:26:58.860 - 00:27:15.090

But a very common thing in India, for example, is when they buy a piece of property, they do something called "black money" and "white money." So the house, let's say is $1 million, you'll get half of it in white money that you list as a price $500,000, but the other $500,000 is actually in little box of cash, or a suitcase

00:27:15.090 - 00:27:26.610

of cash. [laughs] And you know, people came to my parents when they were selling their house, and they're like, "Oh," you know, "We'll give you X amount of money, but halfway, or 30% has to be in black. And the rest will be white cash." And my parents were like "No, we're not doing that.

00:27:26.610 - 00:27:40.270

We're— everything has to be white." So they ended up getting a much lower price on their house because no one was willing to give them the full price in white money because once you declare it, and you've put the sale, you have to pay the property taxes for the next person. And nobody wants to do that.

00:27:41.500 - 00:27:54.180

So there's all these little clever ways, my parents just never bought into any of that. They just never did. And I don't know how they did-they didn't do that. I mean, you know, it's greed, human nature we have, that we always want more, more, more, you know.

00:27:54.780 - 00:28:08.180

But my parents are, you know— I might have saved, I-I think I could probably do that. But I won't lie to you, I think there's a great temptation we all have to try to, you know, screw the system. And, you know, everybody's doing it.

00:28:08.580 - 00:28:21.720

And, you know, that's why unfortunately some countries like India and other countries, they just don't get ahead because the population is so used to having that cycle of graft and corruption increasing. You know, so my parents are definitely my role model in that sense.

00:28:22.350 - 00:28:36.670

Um, you know, there are other people I've thought about as role models, but I-I come always back to my parents, probably my grandparents also. And there's one thing I'll always tell people, and it's a hard, hard lesson to learn, I feel. And I always try to tell my students the same thing.

00:28:37.150 - 00:28:53.790

You know, in your lifetime, honestly, you're gonna have friends come and go, friends will cheat you, they'll betray you, they'll lose friends over time. But ultimately, at the end of the day, the only people who are really ever going to be happy for you, and are really ever going to give you unbiased attention is going to be

00:28:53.790 - 00:29:07.580

your parents, or your very close relatives. It's-it's just a fact of life, unfortunately, you know. I've learned that in 42 years on this planet. There's very few people you can trust more than your parents and your family.

00:29:08.170 - 00:29:23.860

You know, I've had friends, you know, betray me, borrow money, not repay it. Friends who will lie to you, or they'll say something and then they don't really— they won't come through with you, unfortunately. People you think are your friends will betray you, or they won't be there for you

00:29:23.860 - 00:29:37.660

when you need them, you know. But I don't think I've ever had my parents not stick up for me, you know. They've been consistent, which is the best thing any parent can do, actually. But, you know, that-that's why, you know, they're probably are the people that I

00:29:37.690 - 00:29:52.090

respect the most, you know. Hm. That's great to hear. Could you talk about how your academic interests evolved throughout high school and your early college years?

00:29:52.800 - 00:30:10.420

Yeah, definitely. That-that's been a long progression, actually. When I was in— when I was in high school, I actually thought I wanted to be a congressman. [laughs] I wanted to be the first Indian congressman from Florida. I went to DC for political sci-political science at American University.

00:30:11.040 - 00:30:22.830

And I think I changed my major three times in the first year. It was political science major, then I changed to English major, and then I became pre-law major, what we called at that time "law and society." I think it's called "pre-law" now.

00:30:23.120 - 00:30:36.990

It's kind of like a hybrid of pre-law and sociology, you know. But I quickly realized getting to DC that pretty much almost everybody in American University was like a mini politician. And I realized that, you know, I have so much competition, I think I should probably

00:30:36.990 - 00:30:48.760

forget this idea of being a politician. I don't think I— and then I did an internship on Capitol Hill one semester, and I didn't really enjoy it. It was okay; it wasn't a bad thing or anything, but I could see that I'm just not a

00:30:48.760 - 00:31:04.900

political person. I, you know, political person, you have to be very diplomatic, you have to be very, you know, political, you can't take things personally, you have to work with people. And that's a hard lesson for people to learn who are blunt like me. I'm very blunt, and very direct.

00:31:05.390 - 00:31:19.760

And that often gets me into trouble sometimes, you know, at my workplace, gets me in trouble other places. Um, and, you know, I quickly realized, you know, from high school to college that, you know, maybe teaching is the right place for me to go

00:31:19.760 - 00:31:36.310

into. Mainly because I think one thing about teaching and education is there's just so little room for baloney, and-and making stuff up. You have to be direct. You know, I have to stand in front of 25 to 30 students every semester, and convince them

00:31:36.530 - 00:31:49.300

that I know the best laws that they don't have; I know the right answer. And that's very hard to do, actually. You have a lot of cynical students sitting in class, who just will not believe you. And they may not read the textbook properly, or they will not read it at all.

00:31:49.950 - 00:32:00.310

And so they have to trust you. That-that credibility factor is very important. And to be a politician, you kind of have to give that up I think. [laughs] You know, that's why the jokes— there's so many jokes about politicians.

00:32:01.030 - 00:32:13.740

But it's hard for me to find jokes on teachers and professors. There are some out there, very funny jokes. But I find that there's so many more jokes on lawyers and politicians, there just are. [laughs] You know, and, you know, that was something that I thought about my

00:32:13.770 - 00:32:24.630

research, you know. So when I started going through my research, I went to my— I mentioned my law school, and I went to a master's, my PhD. It took me about four months to figure out what I wanted to write my dissertation on.

00:32:25.230 - 00:32:42.830

And eventually, I decided to write it on prisoner reentry programs, faith and non-faith-based. And it took me four months to get to that level. Because the problem was, there was so many other dissertations out there that were similar, that was in some criminal justice area, and had to relate it to public

00:32:42.830 - 00:32:55.950

administration or public management in some fashion. So it took a while to get the topic together. And then I tr-I tried doing something that other people have tried to also do, which is that you don't want to take some topic— and this is advice for anyone who watches this

00:32:55.950 - 00:33:08.530

video— that other people have already done. If there's a topic that's already been talked about enough, don't do it. Don't do it. Because there's not much more you can talk about it, actually. You know, so I tried to find topics that maybe there might have been 10 or 15

00:33:08.530 - 00:33:18.640

dissertations at most, some of the topics had like 40 or 50 dissertations. What am I going to add to this discussion? You know, you have to be honest about that. Are you- are you trying to just add, you know, trying to just get-graduate?

00:33:19.010 - 00:33:30.750

You're trying to add something on. So I tried to find something I could add on like a little piece, a little bite piece on. Um, and it came to— I came to figure out that, you know, I know prisons and jails are always going to be a big topic in this country.

00:33:31.330 - 00:33:47.330

They've been this way for hundreds of years, you know, hundreds of years people have had jails and prisons, and we don't know how to really, you know, manage these people who go to prison. When they come out, how do we get them back to functioning society? I mean, so many problems with that.

00:33:47.330 - 00:34:01.600

I-I can see it's a huge issue. Another issue I realized was, you know, nobody seems to really care about prisoners, inmates. "Who cares? They're in prison or jail, wh-why should I care about these guys. They did something bad. Let them rot, you know, who cares about them?" The problem is

00:34:01.600 - 00:34:17.060

actually it all— it becomes all of our problems because eventually they are going to be released, something like 97% or 98% of prisoners will be released someday. They will be. They'll serve their time, and they will come back to communities. And I started thinking about that as I was doing my research into— at Rikers.

00:34:17.060 - 00:34:33.640

And I thought to myself, "There has to be some organizations out there that are trying to figure out how do we get these people from going back to that circle, that cycle of revolving door?" Because something like 68% of people are going to go back to prison or jail in 3 years.

00:34:35.000 - 00:34:45.120

And that's just not good, except for the people who are running jails and prisons. But everyone else is not benefiting from that, actually. We're not, we're getting hurt by it. And so that's what started my-my research.

00:34:45.470 - 00:35:00.930

And then of course, there's also other research that has come out, you know, recently about like the school to prison pipeline, with a lot of arguments made that a lot of schools that are low income, high minority, they have this kind of like a function defect-deficit where they-they have these kids that are being taught

00:35:01.360 - 00:35:14.100

poorly, not been prepared, they get discouraged, they drop out, they go into crime, and they go straight to prison or jail down the road. And that's a real big problem. Because I think when you-when you take away that one piece of hope from someone that had

00:35:14.100 - 00:35:25.570

this key to education, it's not going anywhere. You're kind of dooming society, or at least one segment of society, actually. And they're never going to be able to fully recover. And that's what really got me interested.

00:35:25.570 - 00:35:37.770

And I will— I consider myself very, very fortunate. You know, I graduated December of 2008. And I'm sure you remember this, because it wasn't that far ago. You know, 2008, we had that massive crash happened.

00:35:39.080 - 00:35:53.250

And the crash just decimated job opportunities everywhere. I think I sent my resume out to 250 universities, maybe a little bit more actually, it would be 260. At the end of it, I had two job interviews, or three job interviews, and I had two offers.

00:35:54.020 - 00:36:10.090

One was a one year visiting professor, and one was a tenure track position at Texas Southern. And I just considered myself very fortunate, you know, coming to Texas Southern, where it's an independent Black university, historically Black college university. You know, it struggled a lot to get to where it's

00:36:10.090 - 00:36:24.100

at, because the reason why HBCUs were created was because 60, 70 years ago, Black students could not literally walk on the campus. You know, you and I, we were probably not even allowed to walk on the Rice campus 60 years ago, 70 years ago.

00:36:24.760 - 00:36:36.890

You know, so you— there's a lot of changes with that. So it's very nice to be a part of a system like that. And you know that every day your students, they come to class, because for the majority, the vast majority, they want to be there.

00:36:37.200 - 00:36:54.180

They want to get done. They want to finish their degree, you know. And I always try to find ways, you know, to get them done. That's my primary goal and primary reason why I get up in the morning, is I think to myself, "How can I get my students to get done?" That's really important to me:

00:36:54.180 - 00:37:05.170

to get them through this class. You know, what is it going to take? And I know my students have so many things going on. They have, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend stuff, and family stuff, they have kid stuff

00:37:05.290 - 00:37:13.360

going on, they have— they're gonna be working three different jobs, you have internet problems, they have bills they have to pay. You know, I know all of that. I can see that because they come and talk to me.

00:37:14.020 - 00:37:25.180

They spend time in office hours, we do Zoom conversations now. Previously, I would hold office hours on campus. They couldn't make it to campus, they would call me on the telephone, we talk on the-on the office line. But I-I know that.

00:37:25.210 - 00:37:40.040

I can see that. And I know that one of the biggest things that research shows is if you don't have a good connection with at least one or two professors, while you're an undergraduate, you won't make it through. You just won't. I consider myself very, very fortunate also because at American

00:37:40.040 - 00:37:52.260

University, which, you know, is one of the most liberal universities you can find on the-on the-on the United States. I think we had— we have the most amount of Peace Corps graduates than any-any university in the whole country.

00:37:52.720 - 00:38:05.090

There are more Peace Corps graduates who are American University alumni than any other university. It's a very liberal campus. I consider myself very fortunate that I had some very caring professors. I remember I ran track and cross country all 4 years.

00:38:05.110 - 00:38:15.870

I was a student athlete. And it was difficult because track and cross country doesn't end. When it ends, and you go to cross country and after cross country you go to track and field. So you have a whole year. You don't have any breaks like basketball or other sports.

00:38:16.220 - 00:38:24.300

And I remember one professor, Margaret Weekes, she knew that I had a-I had a race coming up one time. And so she said, "Well, it's okay. You come to my house.

00:38:24.430 - 00:38:35.230

I live five blocks from campus. Come to my house and take the exam. You can get done." You know, that was the kind of caring spirit I had at American. And I try to bring that. I mean, literally she opened her house to me to come in and

00:38:35.850 - 00:38:48.510

take the exam. And, you know, I would probably do— I would do the same thing for my students too. I would probably, you know, I would do it. You know, but fortunately, my days, I don't have to do that. I can give online exams, students can take it on their own pace whenever they want to

00:38:48.580 - 00:39:02.440

through Blackboard—and they can—which is very similar to Owl-Space, I think. You know, just basic similar learning platforms. And they can take it whenever they want to, they have the privilege to sit in their home, take the exam, you know, they can get it done.

00:39:03.180 - 00:39:12.130

You know, but that was a very caring person I remember. And there were a few of the professors like that. So that's really important to me. That's why I thought to myself going back to your other question.

00:39:12.180 - 00:39:28.680

You know, how can I bring this type of caring to my research also? So that's why I focus a lot on re-entry, social justice issues, racism, like here in Houston. These are things that are really important to me in that sense. Cool. Super interesting.

00:39:30.150 - 00:39:46.660

I'm wondering if you could think back to some defining moments in your college experience relating to your personal development? I-I can definitely can think back. By the way, please stop me 'cause I think I'm rambling a little bit so please feel free

00:39:46.660 - 00:39:55.000

to stop me from rambling. You know, I know professors are all really bad at that, we like ramble. [laughs] And we-we also like to hear the sound of our own voice. So please stop me if you need to.

00:39:55.420 - 00:40:06.630

But trying to go back to give you a shorter answer. You know, there- there was some good defin—for like I mentioned, Professor Margaret Weekes. She was very nice. She's still at American actually.

00:40:07.630 - 00:40:22.910

And I email her at least once or twice a year, possibly. You know, they— she opened her home to me to come in and-and take the exam, you know, I'll never forget that. Um, there were other experiences, you know, there's another professor named Dr. Jeffrey Schaler.

00:40:24.090 - 00:40:36.000

He was somebody I took I think three or four classes with, and he-he was a— he was a controversial figure on the campus sometimes because he literally believed that mental illness did not exist. That was his whole thing.

00:40:36.000 - 00:40:48.680

He literally was a psychologist, trained psychologist, but he followed theories of Thomas Szasz, and others. And he's like, "Mental illness is a crock. It does not exist." And I used to listen to his lectures, I just think about that.

00:40:49.300 - 00:41:04.960

And, you know, you may or may not agree with his lectures and all that, but one thing was Schaler would really try hard to make it seem as though he would try to bring all voices into the room. For example, I remember one time, and this was in the year, I think around 2000 or

00:41:04.960 - 00:41:21.710

so. And this was more than 20 years ago, 1999-2000. At that time, under Clinton, because it was- yeah it was under Clinton. Microsoft was being just hounded by the Justice Department for antitrust, because they had basically crushed Netscape Navigator through Internet Explorer.

00:41:22.240 - 00:41:32.040

It was— it's a long story, but that's what they were doing. So the Justice Department came heavy after them. And, you know, Schaler was arguing because he was a libertarian. And so he believed in the free market and the government staying out of everything.

00:41:32.160 - 00:41:42.850

He was like, "Look, Microsoft did what any good business does: they crush their competition. That's okay to do, because that's what good business does. This is a business decision. It's not personal." Now, of course, Netscape Navigator went out of business, people lost

00:41:42.850 - 00:41:57.110

jobs, all that, which wasn't fair. On the other hand, his point was, "Look, if it's not a good product, what is the big deal? Why would the market, you know, accept this product?" That isn't entirely the truth because what was going on was Microsoft was b- making deals with Dell and HP and other

00:41:57.110 - 00:42:11.220

companies to forcibly put Internet Explorer and to exclude Netscape Navigator from the desktop. I mean, once you do that, you basically cut your competition out. How does that make sense? So that's not exactly the-the right. But see, business is war, business is bloody, it's-it's brutal.

00:42:11.700 - 00:42:22.120

And only the strong can survive in that sense. And if you're not willing to be— break a few necks and break a few arms, then you shouldn't maybe be in business. It's brutal. That was his point.

00:42:22.370 - 00:42:32.740

But I remember in class someone said, "But you know, your argument is that this is okay." But what if you have a superior product? How do you beat Microsoft then? You think, well, you have to get together, you could band with a bunch of people, you

00:42:32.740 - 00:42:45.890

could do a consortium, and you can fight against Microsoft, you can lobby your congressmen, you can form a group, and you could get— because, you-you have strength in numbers, a coalition. So the next student asked again, "Well, professor, what happens then?

00:42:45.890 - 00:42:56.720

What if you still can't beat Microsoft? They have tremendous power. They have more money bags than you do." He said, "Well, you get bigger, you try to get more people involved, you build a coalition, you-you look at other opportunities.

00:42:57.070 - 00:43:06.360

You have a superior product also." You know? So then the student kept pressing. Student said something like, "Well what if you still can't beat Microsoft? What happens then, professor?

00:43:06.360 - 00:43:19.860

What if they just-they just steamroll you?" So Schaler thought about it. I remember, he was thinking, "How do I answer this student's question?" He was giving his professor, you know, scratching-his-chin-pondering look, which a lot of absentminded professors, you know, stereotypically do.

00:43:20.500 - 00:43:33.050

And he said, "You know, I guess you're screwed. You can't beat them. You can't beat them." You know, and that's also true. That-that is, you know, that does happen, sometimes. But I think, you know, I look at— I'm very interested in Silicon Valley, which is, you

00:43:33.050 - 00:43:43.050

know, not my field of-of area of expertise or anything, but I've always been interested in these, you know, tech companies. And I think- I think back to what Schaler said 20 years ago. When Google really didn't even exist.

00:43:43.130 - 00:43:52.770

You know, the biggest thing in '96, '97, '98, '99 was Yahoo. Yahoo was the cat's meow. Everybody loved Yahoo. What is Yahoo doing today? I mean [laughs.] You know, they were so big.

00:43:52.770 - 00:44:02.270

They were— I remember they were trading $125 a share at one point. I was-I was flabbergasted. And there was AOL. AOL doesn't really exist anymore. You know, these are companies that they come and they go.

00:44:03.200 - 00:44:13.010

And I-I think similarly, you see that. You know, Microsoft is still a very powerful company. But I would im— I would venture to guess Google may be even more powerful. Amazon's probably more powerful.

00:44:13.010 - 00:44:25.560

Amazon wasn't anywhere near them '99-2000. So I-I think that Schaler was correct. That you can get bigger, you can get better. It does take time, but there are always going to be upstarts that come up, and they

00:44:25.560 - 00:44:39.390

harness the technology, and they take charge, and they can beat the old behemoths, which is what happens. You know, about 100 years ago, there was a company called Woolworths. Woolworths was the Walmart of their day, but they don't exist anymore.

00:44:39.950 - 00:44:50.690

They don't. They just, they've folded. Kmart was better than Walmart at one point. But you know, Kmart doesn't really exist anymore. Sears was a huge company, JCPenney.

00:44:51.120 - 00:45:03.590

So I think when-when Schaler— that's I think Schaler was trying to get at: that eventually everything does crumble. It's just- it just takes a little bit of time. But you have to be patient, and you have to work at it, and you have to have a superior product. You have to.

00:45:04.190 - 00:45:15.520

And I think you have to always have a lot of luck. I think that's also one thing a lot of people don't talk about, and they don't want to talk about it [laughs.] You know, it's very interesting to me in America, we have this American dream, that you work hard and pull yourself by the bootstraps, and you get

00:45:15.520 - 00:45:28.250

out there, and you make it happen, you hustle. And that's very true. That's very, very true. You work hard. But I think you have to have a little bit of special bit of luck also. I think Google and, you know, like now, probably the best

00:45:28.250 - 00:45:45.430

examples are of tech companies are like Uber, and Lyft, Airbnb. But these companies wouldn't really exist if it wasn't for the iPhone and the apps. Those apps made it possible because the iPhone was in everybody's pocket. So I think there's a certain luck that people have to have.

00:45:45.430 - 00:45:57.080

I don't think Airbnb could have worked in 1961, I don't think it would have worked. I just think it wouldn't have— it probably wouldn't have worked. Lyft probably wouldn't have worked either. It just— it has to be a period where there's a technology, and there's a shift, and that

00:45:57.080 - 00:46:09.970

transition happens all together at one time that creates some very lucky people who just happened to be at the random lottery birth, basically. You know, and-and I kind of look at my own life that way, in many ways. I could have been born to a different family.

00:46:11.290 - 00:46:19.630

And I could have had a totally different experience. You and I might not have had this conversation today. But it was just a lottery, the random lottery of my birth. And, you know, I got lucky that way.

00:46:20.330 - 00:46:33.050

I also got lucky, like I mentioned, that I've been very fortunate throughout my life, you know, even when I flunked out of law school. I kept in touch with some of the law professors. I remember in particular one professor, Michael Flynn, who taught me torts.

00:46:33.260 - 00:46:41.450

I really loved torts. I wanted to be a personal injury lawyer, actually at one point. Because I really, really enjoyed personal injury law. And I wrote 17 pages on that exam.

00:46:41.450 - 00:46:55.430

And he gave me a big fat F. I still don't know what I did wrong [laughs] But it happened. But I— you know, he was-he was somebody that I still talk about in many of my classes. Some of the things he explained to us, only a great teacher can explain these things to a

00:46:55.430 - 00:47:08.680

student, because they lived these things. He-he was one of the few professors in-in the university who would actually go on and practice law. A lot of law professors like academics like me, they just are a certain trajectory. You just go and you do the study, but academic work.

00:47:08.960 - 00:47:21.900

They don't come in with first-hand knowledge and real life knowledge. They don't have that, unfortunately. And the vast majority of students at any university or law school, they probably want to go out and work. They want to be, you know, they-they want to work.

00:47:22.080 - 00:47:32.270

They don't want to hear theoretical stuff, "If X does this, then Y does this." They want to hear real life stuff. He was one of the very few people who gave very good real life examples, which is something that I don't really have.

00:47:32.760 - 00:47:47.720

And so what I do with my classes, I bring in a lot of guest speakers. And I have a lot of alumni from TSU who work at HPD and Texas DPS. I've had the CIA come in twice, I've had the FBI come in once, and the US Secret Service come in at least twice.

00:47:47.990 - 00:48:02.950

I have a lot of people come in that provide value to my students for internships, real life experiences. And it makes a huge difference when they see there's somebody out there who looks like them, and talks like them, somebody who graduated from TSU.

00:48:03.320 - 00:48:15.550

Makes a big difference, I think. And I'm one of the— I'm proud to say I think I might be the only professor on the campus that does that. I don't think-I don't think a lot of professors do that. A lot of professors feel like, you know, "If I do that, it sucks up my time for

00:48:15.550 - 00:48:26.350

lecturing." But I-I don't really believe in that. I think you could learn many different ways. You know, I don't think lecture is the most best way to do it actually. Sorry, I got sidetracked. That's why you have to stop me.

00:48:27.420 - 00:48:41.250

[GL: laughs] Yeah you have to stop me. I got sidetracked again. [laughs] Oh, you're good. So I'm thinking early— like throughout your career, can you think back to a time where you had to juggle many

00:48:41.310 - 00:48:48.760

different roles at once? And what— Yes. That was actually one of the questions—I was actually [inaudible] questions this morning when I-I was rereading your questions.

00:48:50.260 - 00:49:05.870

You know, I think the hardest year I had in my lifetime was not the year I flunked out of law school, although that was very stressful. That was-that was tremendously stressful because what happened was I-I started as a full time student at Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale.

00:49:07.020 - 00:49:16.520

And I literally am not making this up. We would literally read probably about 900 pages a week, easily. Easily read that much. And it was brutal. It was absolutely brutal.

00:49:17.190 - 00:49:32.270

And I know— sometimes I would study so hard— and I don't know if other students, you know, watching this video you— this may have happened to you. I'd literally look up and I'd see stars dancing in front of my eyes. Like I've never ever worked that hard in my life [laughs.] I mean, it was brutal.

00:49:32.300 - 00:49:43.370

It was so brutal. It— I can see why—I-I can see why a lot of lawyers, they commit suicide, they drink, they have alcoholism, they have divorces, and drug abuse. There's a lot of jokes about medicine, the same thing.

00:49:43.830 - 00:49:54.100

I can see why it's a brutal profession. It really is. It's-it's hand to hand gladiator combat. And— because every time you walk into the classroom, the professor can just turn on you and be like, "So, Mr.

00:49:54.100 - 00:50:05.840

'So and so,' tell me the-the issue and [inaudible]" What? You know, "I don't know the answer! Let me go to the next student!" And you feel like a moron in front of 32 other people, you know. But everybody feels like a moron.

00:50:05.840 - 00:50:17.450

That's like— no one knows what the answer is. It's crazy. But I think the most brutal period of my life I've ever had was 2017. That was the worst year, the most brutal year I've ever had.

00:50:18.330 - 00:50:35.230

And the reason was because I was a TSU since 2009, that was my eighth year TSU. I had just got tenured promotion from assistant to associate in 2016 August. And there was a shake up at my university, and a new president came in.

00:50:35.230 - 00:50:50.250

And a new president came in, and usually what they do is they like to change all the associate deans and the deans and the provosts. They do a whole [inaudible] on the campus. So what happened was the previous dean of my School of Public Affairs had to resign.

00:50:50.250 - 00:51:02.600

And he had done five years, so it was a five year contract. They did not renew his contract, he stepped down. And they— and the new president came and appointed a new dean. And he wanted to shake up his own school also.

00:51:03.150 - 00:51:14.740

And so we have three departments in my School of Public Affairs: urban planning, administration justice— where I teach— and political science. So we changed the chairs for all three. He left political science alone, I'm sorry, but he changed the chair of the other two.

00:51:16.110 - 00:51:26.060

And at that point, I'm not making this up. I've been at TSU eight years. [laughs] We had had five, five chairs in eight years in my department, which is a lot of shakeup.

00:51:26.980 - 00:51:41.250

We've- I've been in the same department now 12 years? We've had now eight chairs in 12 years. We have just a lot of volatility, unfortunately in my department. And I was the fifth chair, and I should say this: when the guy— the dean came to me, and

00:51:41.490 - 00:51:56.070

he spoke to me about being interested in being the chair, it was called the interim chair. Interim chair, which is a temporary position. He said to me, "Look, first of all, it's only a one year position, so you just hold the ship and keep the ship upright.

00:51:56.070 - 00:52:07.440

And then we'll do a national search. We're gonna find somebody from outside because you guys have just too much volatility. You need someone from the outside to start fresh; no baggage, nothing, just start fresh." So just one year.

00:52:08.070 - 00:52:27.210

So I said, "Okay." I said, "If it's only one year, I'll take it." Because I could already see [laughs] there's gonna be a lot of politics, you know. And then I came to find out [laughs] I wasn't-I wasn't the first person he went to. I still laugh about this 'cause it tells me how crazy, how political academia can be.

00:52:28.050 - 00:52:43.100

I was actually the fourth person he went to. We had I think eleven faculty members at that time. And we're down to about nine, I think, or actually I think— yeah, we're down to about nine. Yeah, we-we lost-we lost two people or three people.

00:52:44.620 - 00:52:58.030

He went to three other people before me. One was a woman who had applied for the position a year before or 6 months before. And he asked if she was interested, and she thought about it, she said "I'm not interested." Then he went to another woman, and she had been the chair and she said, "No,

00:52:58.030 - 00:53:09.420

I would like to retire very soon, so I don't want to put more on my plate. I'm sorry." So she said no. And then he went to a third woman, and she said, "No, I'm not- I'm not even interested at all. Not even a little bit. That-that's not a position I want." And then he came to

00:53:09.420 - 00:53:19.060

me. And I make jokes about it 'cause I'm like, wow, I wasn't even the first, second, or third. Like, I didn't even get the bronze medal. I was fourth; there's no medal for that. And I lasted about 15 months in that position.

00:53:20.390 - 00:53:27.460

And then the person who came right after me, it was a woman. And she was very reluctant. She lasted six months. It was just brutal. It was brutal.

00:53:27.460 - 00:53:42.530

It's-it's— I remember sitting on-on Christmas Day in 2017 looking outside the window of my office. And I think it was-it was-it was very cold. I don't think it was snow, but it was very cold. And I remember on Christmas Day, sitting at my computer, writing emails to my faculty about stuff that

00:53:42.870 - 00:53:52.710

I look back was not at all important. You know, it just was-it was-it was just total baloney. Just-just nonsense, you know. And I think back to that time, a lot.

00:53:52.710 - 00:54:05.600

And I'm like, "You know, I know what my priorities are in life, to a large extent." Is not to be involved with stuff that not— that 20 years from now, 10 years from now, you have to ask yourself, "Is this something that's worth it? Is this something that, you know, you're gonna look back and say, should I-should I

00:54:05.600 - 00:54:15.270

have spent this much time with this problem, with this issue?" And I think a lot about that, actually. But it was-it was just brutal. It was-it was-it was constant brutal. It just-just gladiatorial combat.

00:54:15.270 - 00:54:31.100

Academia's very difficult because the problem is, I feel, it's a trifecta of things: you have very large egos of people, you have very thin skin, and you have job security, you have tenure. So you literally cannot get rid of these guys [laughs.] So literally people can say

00:54:31.100 - 00:54:37.730

and do whatever they want to. And they get away with it. Because what are you gonna do? You can't fight them, you can't fire them.

00:54:38.420 - 00:54:49.520

And at a state university, you're also a state employee. So you have additional job protections than if you were at a private university like Rice. You have additional job protection because it's a state-state school. You're a state employee, actually.

00:54:50.030 - 00:55:05.760

So I-I think back to that, and I mean, that was the most—the hardest year. It-it was so hard. Two days after I became appointed, two days after being appointed chair, the guy who was the graduate program director, which meant that— ‘cause my

00:55:05.760 - 00:55:23.880

department at TSU, we have four programs: we have an undergraduate program, we have a PhD program, we have an online master's, and we have a regular master's. And we have three ROTC programs: Air Force, the Marines, and no— the Air Force, Army, and the Navy.

00:55:24.300 - 00:55:36.370

Three-three ROTC, which is managed through UH, but as the chair, you have to manage that actually under-under my department. So you're looking at almost like seven programs. So it helps to have a graduate director so that they can keep track of some— pick off

00:55:36.370 - 00:55:44.790

some of the load off your shoulders. He just told me. He wrote an email to everybody, and he gave me a resig-resignation letter. He said, "I have a lot of projects on my plate.

00:55:45.320 - 00:55:58.060

I-I just can't help you right now. I'm sorry." I was like, how am I going to manage all of these things? So I went and I begged. I must have begged seven, eight people in the department, "Please, I need your help.

00:55:58.190 - 00:56:11.900

Can you do this? I really need a GPD. I can't do this alone." And everybody said, "No, I don't want that headache." Even though there was a stipend. You know, they— there's an additional pay attached. But they said "No, no, it's not worth it to us.

00:56:12.100 - 00:56:21.460

The work is so much that," you know. So I-I tried very hard for 15 months. And ultimately, it just didn't work out. But you know, I look back on that.

00:56:21.750 - 00:56:35.030

And It was brutal. It was so brutal because there's so much of mistrust we have in our world, in our society. For example, the previous chair had not provided the budget for the department to the faculty for two years.

00:56:35.640 - 00:56:46.250

Every time we'd ask him, “Hey, can I see the budget?” “Oh, it's being worked on.” “Oh, it's not ready yet.” “Oh it’s-” Every time. What are you supposed to do about that? So I was like, “No, I want to be transparent.

00:56:47.090 - 00:57:01.350

I want to be transparent. Here's the budget.” “Oh, you spent here?” “You spent here?” “Oh, where did this go?” “Oh, but this?” I'm like, “Yeah, but that's where I spent money.” “Oh, you must be moving money somewhere.” “No, I'm literally telling you this is— there's no more money.” “But

00:57:01.350 - 00:57:17.450

there was money over here. Where did it go?” “Look it’s right over here” [laughs.] I mean the trust was so palpable this— and I'm like, “I don't know what you want.” So it's almost like that's the problem: if you're too honest, I realized that people don't want to believe you. They’d rather believe that you're lying about something [laughs.] So to

00:57:17.450 - 00:57:31.210

go back to your original question, that was the most challenging aspect. My wife, you know, she was pregnant late fall of 2017. My son was born in March of 2018. And I was just kind of phasing out of that position.

00:57:32.320 - 00:57:47.900

You know, that was hard also. My wife actually lost her job in May of 2017. And she didn't get a job back. She- she didn't get a regular job back until I think 2018 September.

00:57:48.180 - 00:57:58.630

For almost a year and a half roughly, she was unemployed. But that was also some additional pressure on me, because suddenly, I was the person bringing home the only paycheck. My wife had a fairly decent paycheck.

00:57:59.110 - 00:58:14.790

But her-her company, you know, in a-in a matter of one day, they downsized 4000 employees. And she just was one of those unlucky people that day, to go without a— to get a pink slip, you know. And so I was juggling that being a new father coming up

00:58:15.620 - 00:58:28.010

[laughs.] I literally- I remember going with her to doctor's appointments, and I get phone calls from work or emails from work. Like I can't focus [laughs.] You know, I-I see the sonogram, but I need to focus on— I have to do this also.

00:58:28.420 - 00:58:42.390

So that was a very challenging part. And I-I think the most important lesson I can tell anybody is, you know, don't bite off more than you can chew. You know, draw some boundaries, you know. So I started telling my boss at work, the dean, I said, "Look man, I gotta take

00:58:42.390 - 00:58:53.110

Saturdays off. You know, let's talk on Sunday. I don't mind talking on Sunday, but I'm not checking email, and I'm not answering your phone on Saturday. I'm sorry." Like, I need time off, dude. And I said, I told him, I said, "You need time off too.

00:58:53.110 - 00:59:04.940

I don't think you can keep responding." I get emails in 4 in the morning. 3 in the morning. "Did you see this email?" "Did you see that?" "What does this person saying?" "Why is he saying this?" I'm like, "Dude, what do you want me to do" [laughs.] It was very demanding, and it stressed him out also.

00:59:05.010 - 00:59:18.990

And he's a very good man. He was very capable. But ultimately, what ends up happening in academia— which is probably true regardless in many industries— is that if there's some— the-the— you know, what ends up happening is I think is this. And I see this— I talked to somebody the other day who worked for

00:59:18.990 - 00:59:33.090

Schlumberger. And he was telling me about how he had like, I think, five department heads in the span of like seven years or something, or six years. He said it's brutal everywhere. That's the problem. Office politics at any corporation is brutal.

00:59:33.090 - 00:59:46.770

He said at least at-at our corporate, we can fire people, if you become too stupid, we can finally get rid of you. But in academia and-and especially at public university, it's very difficult to do that. It's, you know, similar to police departments, right? How do you get rid of the bad apples?

00:59:47.040 - 00:59:54.360

How do you do that exactly? It's very difficult to do that. Because they have job security, they have a union. Basically being tenured. It's like a white collar union.

00:59:54.460 - 01:00:05.230

That's basically what it is. So you know, that's-that's very true. But I think the most important lesson is don't bite off more than you can chew, you know, set boundaries.

01:00:05.560 - 01:00:18.510

Because if you don't, you know, you're gonna get run over. And I think what made— what happened was, to go back to my earlier thing, what I realized, and I've told many people this. You know, my dean, it was Michael Adams, he's still at TSU.

01:00:18.700 - 01:00:33.570

Michael Adams is a phenomenally successful person, phenomenally successful. He-he's built up a phenomenal online master's program. I think when you do that, I think on any campus, there is a lot of jealousy that happens, a lot of petty jealousy from all around you.

01:00:34.310 - 01:00:48.590

A lot of people get jealous. And I think Michael Adams was so successful at his job as being the director of this program— and he got promoted because of the dean— that he almost became a threat in a sense to the job security for the president and the provost.

01:00:49.070 - 01:01:02.310

He could basically have taken their jobs. He could basically have done that, actually, because— and I think that's what happens to a lot of people who get very successful, very, very successful. At some position, they become a threat to the person above them.

01:01:03.270 - 01:01:18.420

And so the person above them gets jealous because they think, "You know what, this guy might take my job." "This-this woman, she's so good, she could be the next president. I can't have that. I have to find a way to get rid of this person." And that's really sad in many ways. And I find it's-it's doubly disappointing and sad at a

01:01:18.420 - 01:01:35.380

university because at the end of the day, you're not serving the students well. You're not serving the students well, which is really at the end of the day, it’s really the only reason why a university exists. There is literally no other reason why a university exists than to serve their

01:01:35.380 - 01:01:47.840

students. There's literally no other reason. If Rice lost all their students tomorrow, they would probably maybe just become a research institution and that's it. But they would not be really fully functional without the knowledge and the

01:01:47.840 - 01:01:56.840

wherewithal of the students actually. So many students come to Rice to become teaching assistants and research assistants. And they-they learn their doctorates. Imagine if one day, those students go away.

01:01:57.400 - 01:02:09.930

Rice could probably still function. They probably could. But I don't know how far— how long actually. You know, they would become like a research center, basically. But would all those professors be able to keep their jobs?

01:02:10.170 - 01:02:23.610

I don't think so. I don't think so. I think-I think especially when you look at the social sciences, the humanities, I don't think those guys would. Sciences, probably because I think Rice has a lot of contacts with NASA, and maybe the oil industry, and business school.

01:02:23.610 - 01:02:35.980

Probably, sure, that's possible, like consulting and such. But really, you know, someone with respect I say this, because I have friends who teach at Rice. And I know people who have humanities degrees. What is a person who teaches philosophy really what are they-what are they going to

01:02:35.980 - 01:02:47.430

do exactly? You know, there are a lot of jokes, when I was in college, people would make jokes about it. You know, "Oh, you know, if you want to- if you want to be the mascot for an NFL team, just major in philosophy, because that's all you're gonna get." And that's a really cruel joke to make.

01:02:48.050 - 01:03:01.710

It is a cruel joke to make. But it's a reality, also. There's a functional equivalent of the degree that you study, and the value that it has to society. There just is. I mean, how much value does political science really have?

01:03:02.710 - 01:03:15.640

You know, outside of maybe working in a-in a political operation, consulting for like a Republican party, Democratic Party. Where is that value exactly in societal— on a nuts and bolts level? Or somebody who can quote Shakespeare?

01:03:15.840 - 01:03:29.470

Where is it exactly? I can't find it. And I-I consider myself pretty educated. I have a Rice degree from Glasscock School, which is basically all humanities, actually. You know, all of the professors pretty much I had was all history people, and they were

01:03:29.730 - 01:03:39.620

English and grammar, English literature, and these kind of people. But I-I see that. And the fact is a lot of humanities departments in the whole country are shutting down, they're falling apart, they're squeezed or smaller.

01:03:40.050 - 01:03:47.760

Because there has to be a value. I think, a lot of students realize that, you know. So, I see that. But that's what really bothered me the most.

01:03:48.210 - 01:04:01.510

And, you know, in fairness, I should say this: what goes on in my university at TSU with these kind of politics, when I've talk to other people at University of Houston and Rice, at St. Thomas, it's-it's not that much different. It really isn't that much different actually.

01:04:02.220 - 01:04:14.620

There's some variations, but it's not that much different. There's brutal politics everywhere. There just is. And that really bothers me because, you know, it-it's sort of like religion, I feel. Education to me is sort of like religion in many ways.

01:04:15.560 - 01:04:29.180

It's not— there's, there's no tangible value. You know, I can pick up my iPhone, and I can hold it. You can hold a degree, but you know, when you think about it, you go through four years, grueling four years at Rice, to step up on the stage for 30

01:04:29.180 - 01:04:40.550

seconds to take a picture and shake your hand. How much is that really worth? How do you put a value on that? And so that's sort of like when you go— and I don't speak as a Catholic, but you know, I

01:04:40.550 - 01:04:52.060

have friends who are Catholics, they go to get communion, or-or— I have a few friends who are Jewish, they-they have a bar mitzvah. I've been to a couple of bar mitzvahs. It's a big deal. You know, you're 13 years old, you're a man.

01:04:52.670 - 01:04:59.820

You know, there's a value placed on that. But you can't really put a tangible value on it. You-you really can't do that. There's no way to do it exactly.

01:05:00.390 - 01:05:12.680

And education I think is the same way. So it's very similar in that sense to me like that-that part that people should take pride in the fact that, you know, one of my students one day might become the President of the United States, at Rice.

01:05:12.740 - 01:05:26.260

It maybe— it could happen. One of my students at TSU could become— could possibly become the president. Or like at Howard, she could become the vice president. We do have a vice president now who graduated from Howard University. I'm sure there's some professors at Howard thinking, "Yeah, I taught Kamala." That lady

01:05:26.260 - 01:05:35.160

is now the vice president. You know, there's a lot of pride in that. I-I take a lot of pride that. I— a lot of the stories I like telling my students is, I'm very fond of one of my students, and he-he's an alumni now.

01:05:35.650 - 01:05:45.230

And he's a Texas Ranger, a Texas DPS officer. And it-it's funny in many ways. I'll call him up sometimes. About two years ago, I got a speeding ticket.

01:05:45.770 - 01:05:53.140

I only had two speeding tickets in my whole lifetime. And it was my fault; I was speeding. And I called him up and he was laughing on the phone like, "Dr. Nayer, are you calling me up? You got a speeding ticket?

01:05:53.400 - 01:06:03.010

You want me to get you out of it." I said "Not exactly." I said, "But I need your advice on it" because this was in a different jurisdiction anyway. So he wouldn't have been able to help me anyway [laughs.] But I said I need your advice because how do I-how do I sort this out?

01:06:03.110 - 01:06:11.710

Because the police officer wasn't very friendly. You know, this was outside of Austin. So he laughed, and he asked me some questions, and he g— he gave me some advice. But then he comes back to my classes regularly.

01:06:12.250 - 01:06:22.230

And I've talked to my students, and it's a big deal for them. You know, the knowledge that you can give them is not knowledge that I can give them. There's no way I— cause it's just— it's not the same thing. I have book knowledge; he has real world knowledge.

01:06:23.060 - 01:06:39.450

But he can come to my class, and he can explain to me exactly how DPS recruits people, and what they— what the exam is like, and all of that stuff. You know, he'll tell specific examples that I can't give. You know, but that is something of a pride to me, because I make jokes to them in class,

01:06:39.450 - 01:06:51.720

and he laughed, and I'm like, you know— he was a good student. He wasn't a bad student [laughs.] But sometimes he'd do goofy things. And I'm like, "This guy, what is he going to do when he gets out of here?" But you know, he's a DPS officer.

01:06:52.050 - 01:07:05.650

He— they only accept, I think, 6% of applicants. You know, it's-it's not that easy to make it through. I think he said they had— they accepted 160 people out of like 1600? I know that Houston Police Department, they might have 8000

01:07:05.650 - 01:07:19.350

applicants, they will only accept maybe about, I think maybe 250, something like that, 240, like 4% or something. It's a very small fraction of people who become police officers that they accept, because there's a long process to go through, you know.

01:07:19.620 - 01:07:33.630

And then even when you get into the program, you go through training at the academy, and then you're in your probationary period for one year, which you can be fired at any time. So it's a-it's a lengthy process; it's not— it's really not that easy to-to become an HPD police officer or most places, you know?

01:07:34.140 - 01:07:47.160

But it's— that's the most joyous thing. And I don't understand sometimes, when professors get upset with students, or they-they waste their time with petty little bickering battles, you know. Or the worst is when they try to get students to-to go against a professor, they

01:07:47.160 - 01:07:56.230

try to weaponize students. They'll tell some students some nasty stuff about— that's not even true, and the students will go repeat it to other people. And it just kind of spreads around like gossip, you know.

01:07:56.810 - 01:08:07.030

I-I don't understand that. And the sad thing is— I talked to somebody who graduated from Ohio State one time. He said, "We had a group of professors who did that on my campus. I was doing my PhD. They were upset with a bunch of us and they made noise, and they had flunked us.

01:08:07.370 - 01:08:22.470

You know, they were trying to weaponize us against other professors they didn't like." Who does that? But like I said, in academia, you have that trifecta, right? Really big egos, really thin skin, and that job security, unfortunately. And that's like a combustible trifecta because, you know, you don't hold the door

01:08:22.470 - 01:08:33.480

open for a certain professor on May 2, 1984, "Yeah, I'm gonna remember that when it comes time for promotion and tenure." Really? Like, people do that. It's so petty. It's-it's— I don't understand that.

01:08:34.270 - 01:08:47.990

So those are the biggest battles that I face. I've realized that it's just— it's not worth it, actually, you know? I wanted to kind of shift gears and discuss your involvement

01:08:48.810 - 01:09:01.830

in dismantling racism. And I'm wondering what— how you see your unique role in that struggle? And also what organizations you've found useful to become involved with?

01:09:02.560 - 01:09:15.300

Yeah, that's-that's another lengthy answer. So feel free to interrupt me if I'm rambling too much. But let me- let me say, you know, I'm involved very much with the Rice statue, William Marsh Rice, to remove that statue, either relocate it or move it off

01:09:15.300 - 01:09:32.920

campus. And you know, our— the group that I'm working with-with Shifa Rahman and a few other students. There are other groups are— on college universities that because of the George Floyd protests last summer have accelerated this move, and the Confederate statue, you know, to push them off campus, to remove these type of offensive

01:09:32.920 - 01:09:51.230

monuments to white supremacy and to white legacy that is frankly racist in many ways. You know, I feel very fortunate, like I said, you know, I went to Rice, I graduated. One of the people— and I- I think to also be very honest and clear about this, I actually came to Rice really for only one reason: I really wanted to make, you

01:09:51.230 - 01:10:06.090

know, new networks and new professional connections at Rice. I wasn't very successful to be truthful because it's a program that I attended was a part-time program. And so the way it worked was very similar to like a community college experience where people come on campus at 6 pm, they jabber jabber jabber in the

01:10:06.090 - 01:10:17.570

classroom, at 9:30, they rush off of campus, and that's it. I think in five years, I had three lunches with— friendly lunches with people, but that's about it. There's one person who left the program that I keep in touch with.

01:10:18.190 - 01:10:28.790

But beyond that, I have almost no contact with people, which I'll be honest, was a little bit disappointing. I was really hoping to get myself more involved because it's nice to be a part of something. It's nice to feel connected.

01:10:29.130 - 01:10:40.890

I think we all need that as we get older. And frankly, at TSU, you know, these are my work people, my work relationships. These are not the people that you can socialize outside of the office. You know, generally, you cannot really do that.

01:10:41.180 - 01:10:53.260

When you go to work— you know, when you graduate college— when you're in college, you have all these friends you can make at dining hall, at the dormitory, classrooms, and this. You have all these different avenues. It's a great world to be, you know.

01:10:53.760 - 01:11:10.240

But when you graduate college, you go into the working world, and you start up and you start working with some XYZ law firm or XYZ company, your-your opportunities and your avenues to meet people, to connect with them, become pretty limited, actually. Especially the older you get, you know.

01:11:10.690 - 01:11:26.060

And-and that's something that I tried very hard at Rice to try to, you know, meet people and-and try to make connections with people. And, you know, I was moderately or a little bit successful, I guess, but not very successful. And that could just be that, you know, people came in as adults, and they

01:11:26.060 - 01:11:33.340

already had their connections. That's not what they were looking for. They just wanted that Rice degree, you know, which is fine. That's also okay.

01:11:33.750 - 01:11:48.430

The other thing I will say is this: I think as a man, you know, us men are really bad at communication. We're very bad at making friendships. I think women are very good at doing this, but for men, it's a special amount of work you have to make. I think that's also the reason why you find that two thirds of white

01:11:48.510 - 01:12:01.230

men in this country over the age 65 commit suicide. There's a reason for that, I think. There is an abject feeling of loneliness as you progress to middle age, especially as you get-as you get older, and you get, you know, more settled in your career and your life and

01:12:01.330 - 01:12:16.950

you try to control sustenance, and you try to draw some kind of inspirational motive to keep going in life. And I think that's a major problem I think for a lot of us men, that we don't have that connection. So one reason to go back to your original question, I was very fortunate at Rice, I met

01:12:16.950 - 01:12:30.640

a very, very nice person, her name was Laura Gallier. And Laura and I were in the same classes at Rice together. She introduced me to a woman named Cherry Steinwender, who is the director of the Center for the Healing of Racism here in Houston.

01:12:31.390 - 01:12:44.510

And they've been around since 1989. They're a very multicultural group of people. I met with Sherry, we had a very nice conversation, and being that I was very interested in working with the organization, I came to some of their workshops.

01:12:44.760 - 01:13:01.780

She invited me to be on their board, which is a three-year term and can go up to six years, beginning in January 2019. And, you know, I feel very grateful, and very glad I could be a part of that. And we do a lot of good work in Houston, doing a lot of workshops.

01:13:02.360 - 01:13:14.360

The other thing is, I'm also the secretary now, they made me the secretary last year, which is the role that, you know, nobody really wants to have because you got to take notes, and keep that, and all of that stuff. But I'm really glad I did all that.

01:13:14.680 - 01:13:25.530

And then I got involved with another group called Pure Justice, which is another nonprofit group here in Houston. They do a lot of criminal justice work. And with George Floyd, like I said, you know, last year, there was a big explosion of

01:13:25.590 - 01:13:42.920

interest by a lot of people in this-in this movement, in this area, you know. One of my professors at TSU, Jeffrey Lowe, he's very involved with the Black Lives Matter movement, the BLM movement. I don't really know anybody in the BLM movement, but you know, obviously, I know,

01:13:42.920 - 01:14:03.400

they overlap with much of what the Center of the Healing of Racism and Pure Justice does. But the major thing I realized is— a few things I guess, in my life regarding working with, you know, these- these groups of people, you know, your-your job— and maybe it's true in-in-in college life also—

01:14:04.520 - 01:14:20.580

you, you're not gonna really be satisfied by that. Your satisfaction is gonna come from outside of things. You know, I didn't really have many hobbies growing up. I'm trying to develop some more hobbies as I get older now.

01:14:21.290 - 01:14:37.850

But I realized that you can't look for external things to make you happy and satisfied. I think a lot of people make this mistake, where they go into a job expecting that job or professional career to make them happy. And I think respectfully, it just doesn't work that way.

01:14:37.850 - 01:14:47.710

It just doesn't work that way. You can look for things outside. And that's why I think volunteer work is so important. It's really important to give back.

01:14:48.550 - 01:15:06.470

You know, I'm doubly happy to give back to Rice as an alumni, you know, as a mentor, as a supporter for the group of students. I also co-founded with Keshawn Ivory The Rice Minority Students and Alumni Network, which is a Facebook group, and we started out with just two members in August

01:15:06.470 - 01:15:19.890

of 2019. And I think now we have over 900 members, you know. And it's a group that we wanted to find an avenue for connections that may be lacking at Rice. And it's a more informal way than having to go through like a career services

01:15:19.890 - 01:15:33.730

office and making connections through the Office of Alumni. We really wanted to find an informal manner of doing that. The other thing that we started up, we just recently just about a week ago— we finally got this done, which I'm glad about— this was— we started up a couple of micro

01:15:33.730 - 01:15:43.170

scholarships for Rice students coming in. And we just awarded those micro scholarships to two Rice freshmen. So we're hoping to do that every year. First year. I don't know if we can compound that.

01:15:43.330 - 01:15:55.940

I don't know if we can do that. You know, because it depends on the generosity of all the alumni donors and other people who can donate. So far, we've had about, I think three or four alumni donate, you know. But that-that makes a big difference, I think.

01:15:56.060 - 01:16:08.920

And I'm working with a nonprofit called Momentum Education, which is also headed by Rice alumni, Raj Salhotra. So I think that makes a big, big difference. And I think that, you know, when you have something like that, that keeps you going,

01:16:08.920 - 01:16:22.550

keeps you motivated, the other things in life, the other baloney, the petty nonsense, that's not really there anymore. You can-you can ignore all that other chatter. But it's hard. I'll be very honest with you; as you get older in life, you know, I'll be

01:16:22.550 - 01:16:34.540

43 in December— it is harder now. I-I've- I'm in middle age now, you know. It becomes harder, actually, much-much more difficult to find the things that used to motivate you to continue to motivate you.

01:16:34.540 - 01:16:49.740

And so what I've realized is this: I think you have to shift your viewpoint every decade or so as to what keeps you going. You know, up until 2016, I had tunnel vision. "I gotta get tenure, I gotta get promotion, I got to make it through, I gotta put my

01:16:49.740 - 01:17:01.370

portfolio together, and I gotta get through the whole year (?). I-I'm gonna do it." And then you do that, you publish your articles, you get your reviews, you make it through. And then it becomes— like I was saying, that's another problem with with academia,

01:17:01.490 - 01:17:16.540

the job security. Once a professor reaches a certain level, it's like, what is the next challenge? What other challenge do I have? And I think for the vast majority of people— I really hate to say this in my profession— they-they kind of just like— they get tenure, and they kind of let their brain

01:17:16.540 - 01:17:27.010

become mush, you know? And they just— they don't find those new challenges. They don't seek them out. They figure— they forget what-what-what attracted them to that profession to begin with, you know.

01:17:27.720 - 01:17:41.320

And the last thing I'll say about this, going back to what you were saying about involve in racial justice. You know, up until the 60s and 70s, there was a proud, very proud movement of professors, maybe even at Rice in the 60s, 70s.

01:17:41.750 - 01:17:57.240

You know, I know definitely at TSU, who would actively get involved with students, and student, you know, organizations, and student protests. You know, the 60s and 70s were very turbulent times. Everybody talks about that. They would actively get involved with Black Panther

01:17:57.240 - 01:18:05.240

movement and Vietnam. And, you know, I remember that. I remember reading about them in history. I wasn't alive then. And I kind of thought to myself, "You know, I should try to see if

01:18:05.240 - 01:18:22.260

I can bring that back." Because professors should get involved with their students. We should. That— those students are technically one of our very few legacies, if you don't have kids, on this planet, actually. They are. I mean, I have to be honest with you, I met so many students in my life at

01:18:22.260 - 01:18:36.160

TSU 12 years, and in college, and, you know, all sorts of students. I've never heard a student ever say to me, "Oh, you know, that-that-that dean, that college administrator, that associate dean, or that provost. Oh they were the best. They were the best!

01:18:36.250 - 01:18:49.300

I love them." I've never heard of that. I mean, occasionally a president will get some like Leebron at Rice. He gets a lot of credit: "Oh, Leebs is the best." I hear that now and then. I— but I never hear that really, you know, an administer.

01:18:49.400 - 01:18:58.080

I always hear all the time, "Oh, Dr. 'So and so,' he was the best! Oh, he had the best lectures." "Oh, Dr. 'So and so' was the funniest.

01:18:58.340 - 01:19:10.480

Oh I-I would go to his office, he'd make these jokes." I always heard that, always. Even I remember that as a student. I remember that. I can't even remember who the provost was at any of my campuses. I literally cannot remember.

01:19:10.760 - 01:19:22.810

I don't remember who the President was [laughs.] I literally cannot. Because how much interaction did I have with these guys? But Professor— Dr. Schaler, Professor Margaret Weekes, Nicholas Giannatasio, you know, Mark Holzer at

01:19:22.810 - 01:19:33.110

Rutgers, Norma Riccucci, I remember those names! I remember them. Because we had interaction with them, actually. And that's what keeps me going a lot of the time. I had a student write me an email, "Dr.

01:19:33.110 - 01:19:40.130

Nayer, I remember talking about you to my students. I used to love TSU. I can't believe—" Oh my God, that's-that's really nice. I really needed that today, man.

01:19:40.130 - 01:19:50.600

Thank you for that email, you know. So that-that could go back to your question, you know, racial justice, you know, because I-I know my students. You know, they liked that a lot. You know, I'm out there. That makes a big difference for them also, to have

01:19:50.600 - 01:19:58.610

representation, you know. [GL: That's awesome.] I'm gonna take a sip of water. I'm gonna take your advice. So I'm gonna take a sip of water.

01:19:58.650 - 01:20:08.680

[GL: (laughs).] Yeah, take your time. I'm wondering, what advice do you give to students who want anti-racism to be central to their career?

01:20:08.680 - 01:20:23.490

Because I'm sure you get a lot of students who are very passionate about racial justice. Yeah, I get a lot. I think HBCUs, we seem to attract a lot of students who wanna do political science, or criminal justice, they want to go into law school, they want to find

01:20:23.490 - 01:20:37.810

civil rights. I've-I've been getting tons of those students over the years. I think— I think the first thing is, you should always say to yourself, if you can figure it out, you know, what is-what is-what's at the end of this rainbow?

01:20:38.270 - 01:20:53.890

You know, what— like, there's a book by a guy named Stephen Covey, Seven Habits of Highly Successful People. And I haven't internalized all those lessons. But one thing I've always internalized is the number one lesson, which is "Begin with the end in mind." What is your end goal that you want to do?

01:20:54.300 - 01:21:05.800

What do you want to do with this? You don't like, you know— give example: you don't like police shootings. Okay. That's a very broad topic. You know, but what is your end goal in mind?

01:21:05.800 - 01:21:16.320

Do you want to completely eliminate school shootings— police shootings? Do you want to minimize it? Do you want to set up a database that tracks it? Do you want to hold police accountable? What is your end goal that you want to do?

01:21:16.320 - 01:21:28.030

And that usually gets most students a kind of pause to think about it. Because I think a lot of us, we rush into these things with emotion. And our reasoning goes out the window. And that's okay to some extent.

01:21:28.850 - 01:21:42.710

But it is easy, very, it's-it's very easy to have revolution. Revolution is easy. Governing is very difficult. And a lot of people don't understand that, you know, that, you know, "I voted for Obama in '08 and '16.

01:21:42.710 - 01:21:53.890

Why didn't he make those changes?" Yeah, I get it, that— or "I voted for Bernie. I'm so upset." Yeah, but that's-that's-that's revolution. The revolution is the easy part. The governing and the administration is the hard part.

01:21:54.500 - 01:22:10.860

That's the hard part. But you have to try because democracy is very, very slow. It's not like, you know, Myanmar or China, which can be one snap of the fingers, you change everything. You-you can't, you know, in a democracy, it's very difficult to do that, actually. Because you have to take all the perspectives into account.

01:22:11.550 - 01:22:24.510

You can't just take one perspective, you know? And so that is something that a lot of students, they don't really fully understand initially. So we have these conversations in my classrooms. You know, generally, whenever we have class face to face— it's very difficult on Zoom I

01:22:24.710 - 01:22:37.230

find— but when we had classes before the pandemic, you know, we had these kind of discussions in the classroom. And when I have HPD come to my office, and they come to my classrooms from the sheriff's department, students will ask them, you know, "What about shootings and all?" You

01:22:37.230 - 01:22:51.800

know, "I'm an African American male. You know, how can I be a part of this department that has these shootings?" And you know, I know you're both African American, you've come to my classroom. But a lot of time, the Dallas PD or Houston police will tell them "Look, the number one

01:22:51.800 - 01:23:06.210

thing we tell them is, 'Don't come back in a body bag. Go out safe today. Don't use your gun unless you absolutely have to.'" And the research shows that 98%, 97% of the time, the vast majority of police officers

01:23:06.500 - 01:23:16.650

never ever use their hand guns. They never do. They really don't do it, actually. The shootings that you see on television are very few. They might be one or 2% maybe of police officers.

01:23:17.420 - 01:23:28.720

Very, very small fragment. The problem is the public and the media sees that small fragment and assumes the abnormal is the norm. And that's the mistaken identity, unfortunately.

01:23:30.350 - 01:23:38.290

It's the mistaken identity. Yes, it is very unfortunate when the shootings happen. But that is actually not the norm. That's actually not the norm.

01:23:38.540 - 01:23:51.230

What happened to George Floyd, that's not exactly the norm per se. That's- that's sort of the abnormal part of it. Because most of the interactions overall, are peaceful, and they're non-violent. They may be a little aggressive and overly rough.

01:23:51.910 - 01:24:04.550

That does happen occasionally. But it is-it is certain levels that I— and I show my students in-in textbook chapters that there's levels. Level one is the police officer sees somebody doing something stupid, so they'll just walk up to them and just sta-stand there.

01:24:04.550 - 01:24:12.770

And most times people behave themselves. Level two addresses that person. "Hey, you need to knock that off. I see what you're doing. You need to knock it off." Most people would back away then.

01:24:13.250 - 01:24:22.090

Level three is police officer may-may say, "Okay, you're under arrest now. I'm putting you under arrest. Stop doing that. I told you. I warned you." They pull out the handcuffs. Level four might be they pull out the baton.

01:24:22.530 - 01:24:34.550

Level five is maybe they pull out Mace, or pepper spray, or the taser, level six. And level seven might be deadly force. But it takes several levels to get to that point. It doesn't just happen automatically.

01:24:34.600 - 01:24:52.120

It-it takes— most police officers are trained to go through several different levels. The problem, unfortunately, happens is that some police officers either don't listen those levels, they're not very smart about that, or-or they panic. They-they you know, have a-have a very biased and

01:24:52.120 - 01:25:08.570

prejudicial notion of somebody coming down the street at them and may or may not have a gun. And so they react emotionally and the biases fire up and they start shooting away. And to change that mindset, change that way of thinking, you know, it's very difficult.

01:25:08.890 - 01:25:17.950

It is very different, I'm not gonna lie to you. And I tell my students that. It's extremely difficult. And that will take a lot of time. It will take a lot of time. It will take a lot of patience.

01:25:18.050 - 01:25:29.400

It will happen, eventually. It is gonna happen. I think one of the biggest steps that I— my students see that the kids, you know, 20, 30 years ago maybe not have seen is what body cameras. You know, body cameras are everywhere now.

01:25:30.080 - 01:25:41.940

Cell phones are everywhere. There's recordings everywhere. And I think the first time this happened was 1995 when, you know, the LA County Sheriff's Department, they beat up, forgot the young man's name

01:25:41.940 - 01:25:53.020

unfortunately, it was a very famous case— Rodney King. And you can look it up, someone recorded it, you know, Rodney King being beaten up by seven or eight sheriff's deputies. And that was a huge thing back then.

01:25:53.310 - 01:26:07.610

Because suddenly people could see this stuff goes on. This does really go on, actually. This is on the news. And, you know, it started going from then onwards. But it's-it's— it is difficult to root out those bad apples because one problem is this:

01:26:07.880 - 01:26:20.910

when a police officer is fired from their job, let's say, they generally just go to another department down the road and get hired over there. That is a big problem, unfortunately. There's no background. It's sort of very much like nursing home abuse, you have

01:26:20.910 - 01:26:31.620

orderlies who abuse nursing home elderly residents, sexually or otherwise, they get fired. They go to another state and start all over again. It's really bad that way. There's no database in that sense.

01:26:32.250 - 01:26:45.230

I know Congress is trying hard to create a national database of officers with-with deadly force. But there's a lot of pushback from police unions. And that's another problem. That's probably the biggest issue is having police unions, because they're very politically active.

01:26:46.170 - 01:26:55.430

And they all vote in a certain manner. And if they don't like a mayor, or-or senator, or a presidential candidate, they make a lot of noise. They make a lot of noise.

01:26:55.860 - 01:27:07.670

And I think people feel that if I don't support the police, what if I've being robbed one day and they don't come to my rescue. There's a fear people have, I think, in that sense. So they generally tend to keep quiet about these things, you know.

01:27:07.990 - 01:27:21.690

And that's a very complicated thing to change. The way it is changing, however, and there was a recent New York T— New Yorker article that came out about a year ago, two years ago, that addressed this issue. The way it's changing is this, this is the way it's changing slowly: it's changing

01:27:21.690 - 01:27:38.390

because the demographics of the police department is changing. When you attract more Latino candidates, or African Americans, more Asians, more diverse, transgender police officers, you know, openly gay, you see the demographics change.

01:27:39.000 - 01:27:51.750

And when they change, the community changes, the perspective changes. Because suddenly you find, wow— I mean, really think about it. 50 years ago, a white police officer and a Black police officer, they probably couldn't even ride in the same car themselves.

01:27:52.430 - 01:28:04.000

You know, a Black police officer might not even have had a gun. That was-that was like a thing back then, 50, 60 years ago. Fast forward to today, it's very normal for a Black police officer and a white police officer to be partners and go out and work together.

01:28:05.130 - 01:28:16.600

And I think that has changed a lot over time. You know, that-that mindset, that you know, these guys are just like us. There's not much difference; they're the same as we are. And that has changed. It will take a lot of time, like I said.

01:28:16.720 - 01:28:32.310

It will still take more time. But I think once that union starts to change, there's more diversity. I think after that, you will see a lot of changes happening in racial justice. You know, Houston Police Department has a union and it's a union for all the police

01:28:32.310 - 01:28:45.820

officers. But it's interesting: Dallas Police Department has a very interesting setup. They have a union, but they have several unions. They have a Latino union, they have an Asian union, they have a white officers union, they have a Black American officers union.

01:28:46.280 - 01:28:57.820

They have different unions representing different interests that they can negotiate, and they can work with the Dallas Police Department. And it's very interesting: Dallas Police Department do not have that many shootings per se as other departments do.

01:28:58.520 - 01:29:12.510

And it could be maybe that is one reason why. Because they all try to have a coalition, and they negotiate with each other as to how and how they can, you know, straighten things out, how they can get along, you know, as equals, and not as one bargaining block, basically.

01:29:13.460 - 01:29:23.420

You know, you could be a Black police officer in New York. You know, NYPD, for example, is the biggest police department on the-on the— in the United States, like 25,000 police officers. That's a lot of union members.

01:29:23.420 - 01:29:38.140

That's huge. Now, if you're an Asian American, or a Black American, African American, Hispanic American, and the majority of the police officers are Italian American, or German, or Irish, you know, what voice do you really have in that organization? You probably don't have much of a voice actually for your people.

01:29:38.460 - 01:29:54.790

You probably don't. So in some sense, what the Dallas police department does is by having a different unions, they have different power to those separate interests. And that power itself is something that can be used as leverage for many different things. You know, and-and that may be what we have to come to at some point because it

01:29:54.790 - 01:30:07.830

does seem as though there is a phasing out for a lot of police departments in terms of their ethnicity and their color. I think it's changing actually, you know. You know, I see this happening.

01:30:08.560 - 01:30:24.330

It- it's a big deal, actually. But it will take a lot of time, maybe another 20, 30 years. Thank you for your insights. I just have a couple more questions [GN: Sure, sure.] One of them is, what have you

01:30:24.330 - 01:30:40.390

learned through your experience with family and through parenting? Oh [laughs.] Oh, I think I've learned to try to be patient. You know, my 2— my 3 year old, he just turned 3 a few days ago. I mean, he's like a windup toy.

01:30:40.570 - 01:30:54.450

He really is. You know, I have no idea where he has so much energy from. I ask my parents all the time, I'm like, "Was I like that? I mean, this much energy?" You know, he's like a little mini hurricane basically. But because you just turn around and "Oh, he's opening the kitchen door now.

01:30:54.450 - 01:31:04.920

He might be grabbing some spoons and a fork. And now he's gone over here, and he's pulling out some plates," and pandemonium, you know. I mean, that's one thing that I've learned with parenting is that you have to be patient and you have to be really alert.

01:31:05.460 - 01:31:18.240

And forget about getting good sleep. I don't think my wife and I have had good sleep in three or four months, at least. We've been trying to break him on this habit of trying to sleep with us, he keeps trying to sleep in our bed, and my wife and I are trying to break his habit, to sleep with his

01:31:18.310 - 01:31:36.050

own crib. And it's not easy to do that because you know, he- he's 3. He has some separation anxiety, he wants to have connection, you know, but we also want to make sure he's not that clingy to us because we-we also don't want to be helicopter parents [laughs.] I very occasionally have parents come to my office

01:31:36.050 - 01:31:46.200

hours. And I don't know how it is at Rice, maybe it's like that. Parents will come to the professor's office hours and they'll discuss your student, their son or daughter [laughs.] You know, you don't need all that. Let the student figure it out on their own.

01:31:46.200 - 01:31:56.320

They have time to figure it out. So that's one thing I really try to emphasize a lot, that you should be independent about that. Which, you know, is not always easy to do.

01:31:56.320 - 01:32:07.670

It's hard. But patience is a big deal, you know? Did that fully answer your question? Because I know I might be rambling a little bit. So [laughs.] Make sure— I'm sure you're going to do a lot of editing on this, Gordan

01:32:07.670 - 01:32:22.410

[laughs.] So feel free to keep, you know, pressing me for the right answer. [laughs.] No, this is all great. I wanted to end on a pretty open-ended question, which is how do you want to be remembered?

01:32:23.460 - 01:32:36.550

Oh, are you talking about Rice? Or you mean in my lifetime? [GL: You can-] I figure you're talking about my lifetime, right [laughs.] I, well I mean at Rice,

01:32:36.550 - 01:32:45.640

I don't really teach or anything. So I don't think— I mean, I'm glad I have a connection with all the alumni. You know, it means a lot to me to have that. And-and really Keshawn and I, we had no idea that people would-would be a part of this

01:32:45.680 - 01:33:01.260

organization, but I— we were flabbergasted, actually. But you know, the information that I tried to put out there through articles and people having birthdays, I mean, I think it's a special thing because I think we forget these things in life. You know, birthdays are really special for people, you know, maybe

01:33:01.260 - 01:33:12.780

not as you get older [laughs.] But it's really special, actually. And, you know, Keshawn and I are really happy we can do this, so I-I want to be remembered for that. At some point, someone's gonna have to take on the group. I can't keep doing it forever [laughs.] Someone gonna have to step up and take this

01:33:12.780 - 01:33:29.470

group. Um, but I think at TSU, you know, I'd like to be remembered as someone who really tried hard to get my students graduated. That's really important to me. You know, it's embarrassing in some ways, but this is not— being that it's a

01:33:29.470 - 01:33:44.230

state university, a public university. The information I can give you is not classified. It's not secretive. You know, I remember when I joined TSU in 2009. I think our best graduation over four years was maybe

01:33:44.410 - 01:33:53.930

2%, maybe 3%. I think it might be 6% now, in four years. I remember Rice is like, I don't know, 90%? 95, 80%?

01:33:53.930 - 01:34:03.610

I mean, much, much higher. You know, nobody even goes by four-year metrics anymore now. Everyone goes six-year metrics, you know. So I think UH I think had like a 57% six years?

01:34:04.840 - 01:34:25.320

I think U-UT Austin might have like 70%, 80% or something, you know. TSU has, I think a couple years ago from the last-late-la-la-last number I heard was, I think about 18% over six years. Now in fairness, community colleges like HCC, Lonestar, you know, these community

01:34:25.320 - 01:34:39.900

colleges that are two year degrees, they generally have a 2%, 3% graduation rate. You know, that- that's just normal. That's an average across the board, you know. Because community colleges deal with so many different types of students and a lot of fluctuations. People come in for one semester, and then they disappear for 10

01:34:39.900 - 01:34:50.530

years, come back, you know. They deal with a different-a different population of people. They're, you know, single mothers or struggling fathers, they're, you know, brothers who have four kids to look after, or, you know.

01:34:50.590 - 01:35:03.580

I mean, it's just hard that way. But I like to try to take pride when I try to get my students— what I would like to remembered by is that I tried every I could to get my students done. I wanted to make sure my students graduated.

01:35:04.490 - 01:35:16.980

And being that I— every semester, for example, you know, I ask my students questions on Blackboard. And like I was mentioning earlier, Blackboard is like Owl-space, it's a discussion board. It's very similar actually to like a Facebook post, basically.

01:35:17.380 - 01:35:27.610

So I-I post a lot of questions and chapters. And every semester for the first two weeks, I don't require my students to buy the textbook or rent the textbook. I give them a little bit of time to adjust.

01:35:28.220 - 01:35:37.700

And so they have a little time to get the money together financially, and all that stuff. So there's not any pressure to get the book right away. Most professors require the book day one. But that's not always realistic.

01:35:37.730 - 01:35:49.530

You may not have the money, you may not have the time, it could be still being delivered from Amazon. You don't know where it is. So what I do is I give them articles to read that they can access. And one of the articles that I've been using for maybe five, six years, is about the

01:35:49.530 - 01:36:02.790

importance of sleep. And the article is written probably around 2014 or something. But it talks about how important sleep is, that we don't realize how important sleep is, that it's very important, and as we get older— you know, we spend one third of our

01:36:02.790 - 01:36:13.860

life sleeping. One third. So it is critically important to get good sleep. And a lot of students, they-they write these comments and I-I mean I can show them to you. I-I read these comments.

01:36:14.110 - 01:36:23.950

I can't believe it every semester. "Yeah, I don't get enough sleep. I work 8 hour— 12 hour shifts at Amazon warehouse, and then I go home, and I'm driving while I'm-while I'm like sleeping, basically.

01:36:24.380 - 01:36:35.380

And then I have to get up at six in the morning. And then I have to go do this. And then I have to go do that." Literally out of maybe 25 students, one or two will say, "Yeah, I get enough sleep." But the majority of them don't do that.

01:36:35.570 - 01:36:50.820

They just don't get enough sleep. So in my thing, when I've read these comments, I think to myself, "How exactly can I get these students done?" Like you have to be realistic about that. You know, I mean, I have so many professors and it's hard too at Rice, also.

01:36:50.820 - 01:37:04.420

I've heard this from my— not just my program when I was talking to students, but even for undergrads I talk to that, "Oh, we're gonna make it hard for you. You know, I had to go through ruckus, and crawl through the muck, and I had to walk 50 miles." And, "Yeah, Professor, we get it.

01:37:04.420 - 01:37:16.330

Your life was hard. So what? So what? It's 2021!" But I hear this all the time: "Oh I had to do it. You're gonna have to do it. I don't care." Yeah, I don't-I don't buy that logic. I really don't buy that logic.

01:37:16.330 - 01:37:23.910

That to me is very stupid logic actually. I can be honest about that. And I had professors like that, "Well I had to suck it up, so too bad." And I— by the way, this is not just at Rice.

01:37:24.650 - 01:37:35.010

You know, there are people at American and, you know, Rutgers. At UNC Pembroke, I remember one professor just gave me a B. She said, "I didn't bother reading your-your final project. I'm just giving you a B." I'm like, "But I wrote it.

01:37:35.010 - 01:37:47.070

I mean, you couldn't read my project just because it's three months late? You-you gave me an incomplete. How does that make any sense?" But they can be very mean people unfortunately. They are. And so what I try to do with my students is "Look, I get it, you guys have so

01:37:47.070 - 01:37:59.470

many things going on. I get it. You have- you have-you have pots of stuff on your plate. So here's what we're gonna do. I have 20 questions I'm gonna post on Blackboard. You have 15 weeks to get everything done.

01:38:00.410 - 01:38:12.520

Okay? Take your time, get it done. I just want to see you make some comment. For each comment, you make, you get 1 point of 1%, that's 20% of your grade, at any time." And literally, I'm not making this up, sometimes students will-will do it

01:38:12.520 - 01:38:23.940

the night before the grades are due [laughs.] Sit and do all 20 discussion boards. I'm like, "You guys are crazy. But that's fine. I respect it. You did the work! You did the work." And then what I do is I give him four exams, all

01:38:23.940 - 01:38:38.520

are multiple choice, three chapters each, open book, and they can take it twice, and the highest grade counts. Because to me, if you're gonna sit and take it a second time, that tells me you want to get a higher grade, you want to work harder.

01:38:39.000 - 01:38:52.990

Okay, if you want to work harder, why not count the highest grade? You can do it. So I probably have 97, 98% passing rate. I think most of my classes, I think I have about 55 students this semester.

01:38:53.920 - 01:39:05.150

Probably with the exception of one or two, they're all gonna pass the course. And most of my students get A's and B's. Now, there's a lot of criticism over the years I've heard from people: "Oh, you know, they're cheating." Well, it's open book.

01:39:05.360 - 01:39:16.810

I don't know what cheating they're gonna be doing. But if you want to believe that, that's fine. I can't do that. I mean, I've heard-I've heard one or two students come to me and say, "Yeah, I know students, what they do is they sit in groups, and they'll cheat." And so I

01:39:16.810 - 01:39:25.420

told the student, I said, "Okay, I'm-I'm really sorry to hear that. Do you want to give me some names?" And of course, the student doesn't want to give you names, you know, that I can-I can report them. You know, if you're not gonna give me any names, you're gonna come to me with some

01:39:25.420 - 01:39:32.240

story, I don't know if the story's true or not. You know, maybe it's true. Maybe it is. But I need some evidence. I can't go on accusations.

01:39:32.320 - 01:39:41.860

I can't do that. We deal with science over here, right? Social science, but still science [laughs.] You know, and then I hear— the thing that I hear most from professors. And this is what I think a lot about.

01:39:42.000 - 01:39:55.380

It really bothers me that I'm trying to— I want to be remembered by. You know, as a professor, I have 15 weeks with an 18, 19, 20 year old kid. 15 weeks I have. That's it. I don't get a second chance after that.

01:39:55.550 - 01:40:08.260

Maybe if they take my class again. You know, even if students are cheating, and they're sharing notes, and they're, you know, maybe they're working as a group or they're taking screenshots of exam questions, you know, what am I supposed to do about that?

01:40:08.260 - 01:40:19.500

[laughs.] Am I supposed to teach morality and ethics to these students? I-I don't understand it. You know, and I have actual professors who argue with me at TSU. Like, "You know they're doing that." I'm like, "But I don't understand.

01:40:20.020 - 01:40:27.640

What would you like me to do? You want me to get in my car and drive down and find where they are? What do want me to do? Take them to church? What would you like me to do?

01:40:27.890 - 01:40:42.770

Perform an exorcism?" [laughs.] What am I supposed to do about that? These are 18 year old adults. They can legally go and join the army, they can buy cigarettes, they can buy alcohol, they can buy lottery tickets, they can get pregnant, have kids.

01:40:43.580 - 01:40:55.200

They're given all this societal responsibility. What am I supposed to do about that? So I don't think you can teach ethics and morality. I also don't think you can police it. But a lot of professors seem to get off on that.

01:40:55.420 - 01:41:02.480

I don't know what it is about that. And I don't know if that's true at Rice. I know at TSU it's definitely true. I know one professor, a friend of mine, and I can share this story.

01:41:02.840 - 01:41:17.380

He was so upset when he found that the students were cheating, that he went and changed— he actually sat and he rewrites the exam questions every semester from hand. He literally sits with a textbook, and he'll— and computer, and he'll spend the

01:41:17.400 - 01:41:29.840

whole weekend and he'll change all the exam questions each semester. And I'm like, "I don't know what you're trying to do here. Like, what is your point?" This is like a one-upmanship game, you know. [laughs.] That still doesn't prove anything.

01:41:30.180 - 01:41:40.640

They could still be cheating, you don't know that. Your grades have been definitely— grades definitely drop. But you don't-you don't seem to understand, you know, you either have respect for higher education or you don't.

01:41:40.730 - 01:41:52.020

You can't teach that. What he told me was he figured out that some students were cutting and pasting the questions into Google and searching. And they were out there. Someone had posted all the answers. I mean, I suppose that's possible.

01:41:52.660 - 01:41:59.630

But what am I supposed to do about that? I mean, if you know, a student comes to me with that, what are you supposed to do? So that's one thing that I try very hard. You have to be rational about that.

01:42:00.560 - 01:42:11.640

You know, you can't police the ethics and morality, you just can't do that. That's on them. That's on their parents. You know, you're a professor, your-your-your job is to teach the subject matter and the subject material to the best of your abilities.

01:42:12.960 - 01:42:25.900

It is not to police them and do so that's-that's-that's not your job. So that's what I'd like to be remembered for is to give people that choice. Some students are gonna cheat, but they're gonna cheat regardless, that's not much you can do about that. Then you become— you know, when I was in college— and I'm dating

01:42:25.900 - 01:42:36.250

myself on that— people would go, "Oh, I have to go to the bathroom. And they go to the bathroom, and there'll be like a book under the toilet or something. Pull it out, open it. You know, or they'd have little cheat cards in their hand [laughs.] I mean— or they might

01:42:36.280 - 01:42:49.040

be writing on their sneakers. I mean, you know, there's only so many things you can do, you know? If you don't have that inside you to begin with, you can't make it happen, you know. So I hope that answers your question in terms of being reminding.

01:42:49.550 - 01:43:03.250

I know that was another one of those rambling answers, but I guess I'm allowed to. I'm a professor, give rambling answers [laughs.] But yeah, but I-I think that's probably all you have. Unless there's some other questions you have, you know, specific.

01:43:03.330 - 01:43:20.690

Yeah. I just want to say, it's really great to hear that you are practicing what you believe in and doing what you— from a place of empathy. And just want to thank you again for your time joining us and sharing your experiences and insights.

01:43:21.160 - 01:43:30.080

We really appreciate it. Yeah, I'm really glad, Gordan, we could do this. I know Anne and I were going back and forth for like, literally months. I think we started talking in October [laughs.] And I literally remember going back

01:43:30.080 - 01:43:44.150

and forth since October. It's now March, that's almost six months. But I am very apologetic, but there's just so many crazy things going on. My parents moved from Florida, I had to help them settle in. You know, my wife and I had to go to Michigan to pick up our son and just— my

01:43:44.150 - 01:43:56.810

parents have had all these problems in their house, the freeze happened, like it's just crazy! So I'm really glad we could get together and do this. And if there's anything to follow up, just let me know. I can always answer questions by email also.

01:43:57.340 - 01:44:06.500

But, I'm really looking forward to this. So you know, and thank you for taking your time. It's also your time on a Friday afternoon to sit and talk to me. So I'm glad you're doing this work, you know.

01:44:06.630 - 01:44:12.760

It means a lot. Yeah, I'm really glad that things worked out for us to have this conversation.