00:00:02.190 - 00:00:17.889

Oh, that's good. One of the things that I'm interested in getting from uh from you on this, uh This is uh first of all your recall of the council because they had been elected by the faculty as a whole. And this was the only body on

00:00:17.899 - 00:00:33.040

campus. Uh other than the welfare company that, that really elected for a different purpose, but that this was the, the most representative group of elected people on the campus and that they could function very well then for a long time, nothing happened. And the next thing

00:00:33.049 - 00:00:49.680

I heard was that uh in my recollection of it is that it actually had been suggested by the board, but I may be wrong on this. But at least I think it was Dean Gordon who at the time, I think that sometimes that the board feels

00:00:49.689 - 00:01:06.769

we ought to have an elected committee. And uh therefore, the machinery was set in motion to actually elect a group of people. I thought at the time. Well, that makes no difference one way or the other. Uh whether we have specially elected or we already used

00:01:06.779 - 00:01:19.614

people that have already been elected. But uh I was, I recall a bit surprised that the board said uh because that was my understanding of it, I'm not sure whether this was really so, but the board felt that that really there should be a group of

00:01:19.625 - 00:01:43.360

people specifically specifically elected for this purpose, which I took to be an indication that uh they were quite serious on getting representative input into the choice from the faculty. Then of course, we had a uh first uh nomination and the nominations were paired down to a

00:01:43.370 - 00:01:58.220

manageable number of your head elections. And in this fashion, I was elected to be on that committee. Did the um I'm not share in my mind who was on the faculty council at this time. Were there many overlaps uh who are the new people that uh

00:01:59.309 - 00:02:20.250

let me see, uh Z Salzburg, I think had just gone off the council and uh he was elected Franz Robson, I think had just been elected on the council and was elected topazio, of course, uh was on the council and was also elected. There was quite

00:02:20.259 - 00:02:36.500

a bit of overlap. In fact, I think there were only one or two people that would have been different, had there not been a separate selection. So it was a and Alan Chapman was on the council and was also elected on this. So I believe, uh

00:02:36.979 - 00:03:06.740

let's see you people. So, uh well, because the student consultants were on there, uh Cell was on there who was not on the council. He would have been a new man. Um Price Williams was on the, was not on the count. Yeah. Well, would, uh would

00:03:06.750 - 00:03:21.669

you like to uh uh talk a little bit about the, the work that the committee did uh during this time? Well, the fifth, the fifth thing I says, uh through this list of candidates. Uh Well, actually the first thing the company did, of course was to

00:03:21.679 - 00:03:44.289

pick, um to pick a chairman. Uh uh the uh uh after some, you know, nobody particularly wanted to be chairman of it. There were several people at the meeting when we picked the chairman, 11 or two people who weren't there. Uh It was essentially came down

00:03:44.300 - 00:04:02.610

of having either Capaz or Broxson to be chairman and uh I forgot that I think we had a vote on it and the thing came out even. And uh then there was one switch. Exactly. Either that or I forgot. Exactly. I came about it anyhow, it

00:04:02.619 - 00:04:19.549

was very close but it should be brought to the top paia, which in retrospect is a very interesting, uh, things might have been quite different. They had to pass in chairman. I don't know why do I say that. Well, I think that the Topaz's attitude, the,

00:04:19.779 - 00:04:45.459

and Bruton's attitude and the choice and the procedures, especially in the attitude toward the board uh are obviously quite different as everyone knows. Uh the uh R takes a very strong and very independent attitude. Uh I think Topazio is much more conscious of the uh how

00:04:45.470 - 00:05:09.040

the board will feel and how the board will react to things and uh it's much more prepared to, uh, yeah, to, to let these sensitivities guide and guide him in deciding what he thinks is advised and, and what is not advisable, whereas, um broad and feels

00:05:09.049 - 00:05:24.000

more strongly as to what he thinks the faculty or to stand for and the faculty ought to do, he's aware of how the board feels, but he feels it's important to communicate uh to the board exactly how the faculty feels rather than sort of anticipate on

00:05:24.010 - 00:05:39.019

how the board might feel and therefore not communicate some of these things because uh the board would rather, you know, the board might not be pleased to hear this or that. It's a matter of whether you're gonna tell the board the things that they like to

00:05:39.029 - 00:05:55.829

hear or things that are not like. And I think there's a real difference between uh the considerable difference in strategy between uh that would have been followed behind and it's in the suitcase. So I think the choice of chairman of the committee, uh which at the

00:05:55.839 - 00:06:14.549

time, uh seem to be fairly insignificant. Um And nobody felt that strongly as to who should be chairman and the board, the committee as a whole was always on very good terms and there was never any real differences of opinion on anything. But, you know, in,

00:06:14.559 - 00:06:32.980

in terms of when it come, when it sort of came to a showdown, I think uh this difference in attitude was bound to influence the attitude that the committee took. Uh and the way in which it felt things out to be communicated to the board. So

00:06:33.019 - 00:06:51.980

after the uh the chairman was, well, after the chairman was selected, then we discuss on how what would be the best way to proceed. And there was some discussion for a while and say, well, how does, who knows how long goes about picking a president and

00:06:51.989 - 00:07:10.880

said, well, lots of schools have gone about picking a president and a number of people uh knew people who had been, including myself, knew people had been committed at other schools. And uh even found out that I think uh Mr Cordell had quite a few contacts

00:07:10.890 - 00:07:26.700

who had been participating in president picking. And even uh we decided actually what's the quite a bit of literature available? And there's even a booklet available which we got and distributed to all the members and sent to the board and how to pick a president. We

00:07:26.709 - 00:07:40.739

collected all kinds of articles which were duplicated, distributed to the members and sent to the, to the, to the board to uh Mr Labott as chairman of the board as to what other schools have done. Then we discussed now what are the sources from which we

00:07:40.750 - 00:07:57.500

could get information of available. After we see, first, we looked at what are the procedures that one to follow and what have other schools done. And, uh, we, um, then after we had discussed this and passed on whatever we found out to the board and, uh,

00:07:57.510 - 00:08:13.390

brought at the time, had a conversation with Mr Lovett that was before he injured his back. And he told us that, uh, very soon this was in the fall or late fall, early winter December that we were to get together with the committee on the board,

00:08:13.399 - 00:08:31.049

with his committee and we were gonna somehow thrash out how things would be worked out. Um, there was one time when Mr Simon, uh, I think was it. And then Mr Lovett hurt his back and two or three times, I think we were trying to get

00:08:31.059 - 00:08:48.429

together and, and it was just fortuitously, uh, worked out in such a fashion that it, the, the meetings didn't come off. In the meantime, we felt we had to stop, get, getting something done because I sort of personally felt things were dragging an awful long time.

00:08:48.440 - 00:09:00.890

Uh, since we knew from the middle of the summer that we would need a new president, took an awful long time to get the machinery going. I think some people, um, probably the board said that so long as Mr Pitzer was here, they did not want

00:09:00.900 - 00:09:16.950

to be actively engaged in looking for another president. Um, I, they must have their reason for feeling that way, which I'm not aware of. But, uh, I, I wish we could have sort of started moving right away and there may be some reason why this might,

00:09:16.960 - 00:09:33.239

might be awkward in some circumstances, but I don't, I don't, I don't know about such reasons but some people must have thought of them. Uh, so after we, uh, after we had reviewed the procedures and communicated some of these to the board, we, uh we decide,

00:09:33.250 - 00:09:47.820

then we look now what are sources of names in Canada. What, what groups could we tap? Well, obviously they have schools to have this to have picked presidents and have one now. So why don't we communicate with some of them? Uh They could give us some

00:09:47.880 - 00:10:00.250

hour list and say we could contact the faculty equivalent of those schools and we should pass the word to the board that they might contact the board equivalent and get lists from them, which I think we passed on the word to the board. I didn't but

00:10:00.260 - 00:10:13.000

I think brought them there. Uh and they said, yes, this is a good idea. We ought to do that and of course, they have contacts with boards. Uh and they can get names that way and we told them what we were doing. Uh This is my

00:10:13.010 - 00:10:33.780

understanding of it. Uh Then we also said, of course, then there are uh organizations like the Ford Foundation and the Carnegie Foundation, they know about people who might be available. Uh Then there are uh the faculty in general and also students. We also get suggestions from

00:10:33.789 - 00:10:57.619

everybody. Um The um a number of people then proceeded on, on, on getting there. Most of the names I think that we had gotten uh were names that were sent directly by Rice faculty and uh usually with a letter and usually from a person, the person

00:10:57.630 - 00:11:15.849

that was, they were recommending personally. And this is, I think how we got some 60 odd names. We were just in the process uh of getting lists of people. I had actually made personal appointment to talk to people at the four foundation that I knew uh

00:11:15.859 - 00:11:30.650

to uh to get some of the list of the people that they would know. And actually, as it turned out in some of these things, there was always a great deal of overlapping, that sort of a cool the same people with revolver. And um this, we

00:11:30.659 - 00:11:49.659

were, and then when we had uh when we were collecting these names and information, we decided to make an individual dossier on each one of them and then just meet and everybody go through these doses and make comments on them, some flattering, some derogatory and some

00:11:49.669 - 00:12:04.659

just plain no or hell no, you know, and uh this is uh this is how we went through those 16 and then we started trying to call them out and the five names that we had submitted was actually then sort of picked out and the people

00:12:04.669 - 00:12:19.200

that had the most general, probably sort of picked 10 people that seem to have unanimously favorable comments and then pair that down and say, well, do you think these are the five names we all submit? And this is these names we submitted. I think it was

00:12:19.210 - 00:12:34.739

just a week before we were told that the born had appointed a uh a man to the presidency during this time that you were going through these 60 names. Uh Was there any evidence of uh of different ideas among the members of the committee? Was there

00:12:34.750 - 00:12:55.260

any polarization of attitudes at all or was everyone? No, there was, there was never uh there was never any uh uh polarization of attitudes. We, we, you see, because we, we, we didn't really think of ourselves as sitting there making any kind of decisions we were

00:12:55.270 - 00:13:12.940

saying as suggesting names and there were differences of opinion as to how good or how bad a particular individual was. And um the uh but there was never, we were, we were sort of trying to pick them from the top, I think uh for instance, the

00:13:12.950 - 00:13:27.979

name that stuck in my mind, of course, because of laser events was Mr Mason, for instance. And uh I think the majority of the committee, but certainly not in them. There was at least one or two people in the committee uh that were favorable to them,

00:13:28.000 - 00:13:40.960

but the majority of them were either lukewarm or unfavorable in sort of a category like a whole number of other people. In any case, this would not have been anybody that would have been considered with the top half of the group that we were looking at.

00:13:41.830 - 00:13:57.409

And uh so, uh but it, it wasn't something that was even discussed because we were not trying to discuss those in the bottom half or even in the bottom 80%. We were only concerned that it was the top 10%. So we really didn't discuss these others

00:13:57.419 - 00:14:11.260

and the ones we had on top were all the ones we agreed on. So there was no really any point of any kind of polarization. There was never nobody's case that let's say was not in the top 1012 names, uh was given in a sense a

00:14:11.270 - 00:14:24.780

any kind of a hearing because it was evident that he was not among the top contenders. And we only wanted to sort of discuss the top contenders for the time being and we would have prepared. We would have come down the list and then as we

00:14:24.789 - 00:14:40.030

had proceeded, uh for the moment, we did not take into account whether somebody was available or was not available since you never know because uh unless somebody was obviously not available, you know, if uh like somebody left the president of the United States, well, that that

00:14:40.080 - 00:14:55.580

was on unless somebody, uh we had certain categories in mind, which we thought would not be suitable like uh a retired admiral that somebody knew about 20 years ago. And, you know, we didn't think that would be the kind of president. Uh so, but these were

00:14:55.590 - 00:15:16.599

such broad and such obvious categories of rejections and, but we, we didn't, uh we didn't in effect reject anybody as such. We just picked them and did not really consider the others. Um So, and, and it is uh this is how, how we proceed it. Uh

00:15:16.609 - 00:15:29.640

Before we move on a couple of other questions, I'd like to uh you elaborate on it if I may just interrupt you before we get on with the chronology. Uh You mentioned the procedure is that uh that you uh you went through and you sent copies

00:15:29.650 - 00:15:47.289

of these to the board, you know. Yes, yes. Uh was in light of better development. Was there anything in that that should have been, had a um inform for the board? Well, it was the booklets and how to pick the presidents. And uh there was an

00:15:47.299 - 00:16:00.859

article written by a member of the Stanford Board on the picking of Pitzer and on what they thought was the right things and the wrong things. And as a matter of fact, some place around you, somebody, I'm sure Franz Praa must have in his file, copies

00:16:00.869 - 00:16:30.960

of all these things that we did send to them, which you might as well get a hold of as part of the uh the uh if I have, if I have mine here, I'd be glad to pass it on to you uh happened. They had uh

00:16:31.210 - 00:16:53.979

I would say that while it obviously was never discussed in the committee by which a number of rice professors uh wrote a letter which was sent to me uh very strong letter in which then I put my support to which was a letter recommending uh Franz

00:16:54.030 - 00:17:08.530

bro to be considered as a candidate for president. It wasn't in the committee because he was chairman of the committee. Uh This was a week or two before the announcement was made and I was still sort of pondering on what would be the best way because

00:17:08.540 - 00:17:24.130

it was obviously an awkward thing to have somebody like him. It was signed by a number of the people, especially in the English Department and mainly people in the Humanity might say uh it had 56 signatures on it. There was a letter which I think uh

00:17:24.560 - 00:17:40.369

spelled out some of broad's qualifications and what people in the humanity thought to have somebody like him who was actually an engineer with the great support of the humanities. It always expressed my feelings. I put my signature to it and put on uh had my full

00:17:40.380 - 00:17:54.869

approval. And after the whole thing was sort of over, I actually gave it to Boston. They may have, he may have thrown it away, he may have kept it as a souvenir. Um The, um the, uh then of course, there was considerable support on the inside

00:17:55.189 - 00:18:11.979

uh for uh Dean Gordon. Uh There were quite a few people. The feeling of members on the committee was always, and I think this is a sound thing uh that there's a chance somebody might be appointed from the committee, but in fairness to them, in fairness

00:18:11.989 - 00:18:28.449

to the university, we certainly have to look over what is available on the outside. And uh because uh nobody would want to feel that they were appointed without everybody uh having looked around. I mean, if you are appointed to a position after the people have really

00:18:28.459 - 00:18:40.420

can with the field and they have done so and then you get appointed, then you feel well, they really must want you. If they just appoint you and never look around, then you get the feeling. Well, they were too lazy to do their job. And so

00:18:40.430 - 00:18:59.170

we were holding in in the back of our minds. A number of people, I think two most prominently mentioned were always proton and Gordon and on the humanity side, certainly proton uh had at that time, the largest support. Um He having been a Dean of Engineering,

00:18:59.180 - 00:19:13.380

there were obviously a number of engineering and science departments that uh uh anybody, any, anytime you've been a dean, you, you have uh turned down a number of people and stepped on toes. And there were a number of people after that had reservations, but in the

00:19:13.390 - 00:19:27.579

humanities, they had always, uh uh they never had him as a dean and they, they knew what he would mean in terms of his conception of the university. And I think, uh so this, this was uh this was the reason why we sort of kept these

00:19:27.589 - 00:19:52.969

things in the background. We uh because these, these are easy cases to decide once we have looked elsewhere because everybody knew that and knew that. And he said his letter was probably something like this. Um Was there any discussion on any of these uh that uh

00:19:52.979 - 00:20:14.160

related to the problem of uh faculty? Oh yeah. Yeah, I discussed the advisability of faculty participation, the techniques of faculty participation. I discussed the advisability of student participation. This was all this was discussed in all these things um on the how they should participate to what

00:20:14.170 - 00:20:34.479

extent they should participate. And most of them were strongly in favor of all kinds of participation. Did you ever have any reason to think one way or the other that uh that these things were uh seriously read by? Uh No, I uh had no reason to

00:20:34.550 - 00:20:53.650

uh to think of it one way or the other. Uh Since I did not know what the personal reading habits of the members of the board are and I know they're busy people and uh this is, uh, and also they're usually people who have, uh, you

00:20:53.660 - 00:21:09.920

know, some confidence in doing things the way they think of doing now. I, I don't know, it's, I have no reason to suspect uh to make any judgment one way or the other. We obviously wanted them the reason because that's why we send them to them

00:21:10.589 - 00:21:31.890

and, uh whether they read them or didn't read them, I have no idea. Uh, at this time, did you uh was, was the communication? Um And your impression mostly through loving alone or were there contacts with other members of board on an informal way about this

00:21:32.020 - 00:21:52.410

fundamental connection to my knowledge, the only contact we had was between Brockton and Lovett. And there were very few, I do all these things for male to the individual board. I'm not sure whether all these things were made to my, as I recollect, they probably were

00:21:52.420 - 00:22:06.729

ma mail only to, to love. I don't think they were mailed to other people. I'm not sure. But, but it would it be correct that your impression is that all the communications between the faculty advisory and the uh to the board? And then it was all

00:22:06.890 - 00:22:28.119

between these two men? Right. Right. This is, you see, this is because those meeting rules that they have to have that were the main means of communicating and having an exchange of ideas and even sort of agreeing on the basic uh uh role of uh us

00:22:28.130 - 00:22:44.640

and them, these meetings never came about. We had a president was appointed before we ever agreed on what exactly what we were supposed to do. So we just went on the assumption we ought to make aggression and, uh, we just started making suggestions. Have you ever

00:22:44.650 - 00:23:03.689

had an occasion to get acquainted with in a very uh personal way with any other members? Well, yes. Uh, before then, of course, I had gotten the points of uh Mr Simon because he is the chairman of the our departmental advisory committee. Uh We are one

00:23:03.699 - 00:23:27.310

of the departments that has an advisory committee. Most of the advisory committee have the chairman who's a member of the board. Mr Simons happens to be the chairman of our advisory committee. And um the uh uh so we had, I've had uh the extent of having

00:23:27.319 - 00:23:44.550

uh a couple of lunch and a couple of dinners and a couple of meetings with Mr Simons before any of this had come up. Uh Were you aware of any diff serious differences of opinion? Four here, Spanish. No, we had never discussed it. We had never

00:23:44.560 - 00:24:01.099

discussed it. We uh the main thing we had been, I had been discussing with Mr Simons had to do with uh development of economic department and the future school of management and things like that. And he was engaged in the process of going out raising money

00:24:01.109 - 00:24:26.510

for us. And uh we were only talking about those things, we're not talking about anything else until was that the situation has developed some of the masses? And I had the, I had, had only, um, or had met Mr Lovers pose once or twice. I had

00:24:26.520 - 00:24:44.890

met with the island, but I cannot say that I have been personally acquainted with them. No, no, no, because it's sort of, uh, you know, the kind of conversations I had with them at receptions and things like that when we talk about football and the weather

00:24:44.900 - 00:25:03.680

and at the university, um in sort of very general terms, but we had never discussed uh presidential appointments on any of these and to my knowledge, uh um suddenly thinking that they were thinking in the same terms we were and in fact, all alone, I guess

00:25:03.689 - 00:25:17.300

they still do in terms of the kind of uh what we wanted out of a president. Now, the kind of person that might fulfill that role, we might have differences of opinion on. But I think the kind of person that we really wanted to, my knowledge,

00:25:17.310 - 00:25:41.489

there was never any uh difference of opinion. I think the aspirations were as high as ours as far as I know. Um I, I have no, you know, I can go around and making guesses that they may have uh solved this or that. So, no real,

00:25:42.430 - 00:26:02.050

no real notion that uh that there was any difference of opinion. I don't know if there was a difference of opinion. Um, what we were looking for is I think there was, there were obvious differences of opinion on whether the man that was chosen, uh, was

00:26:02.060 - 00:26:28.410

consistent with what we were looking for. And also, of course, the procedure. Well, a bit startling good. How did you first get news of this? How did I get first news of it? Uh, I ain't got news of it. The, I was called by Mr Broxson

00:26:28.420 - 00:26:48.229

saying that we were gonna have a meeting but a very important meeting, uh the members of the board. And, uh, he says, I cannot tell you what we're going to discuss. And, and then I said, well, I'll, I'll make one guess. And, um, he, he just

00:26:48.239 - 00:27:02.780

let me guess. He didn't. And I said, I said, we, we didn't discuss this and the meeting was to be the next day. Uh, and I think that was on Thursday. He called me Wednesday and I think we have the meeting on Thursday afternoon. And by

00:27:02.790 - 00:27:20.849

then I, I knew that somebody was on the point of being considered or what had been considered. And uh uh Wednesday, then I found out that person indeed had been appointed. Well, you, well, you getting fast. No, I didn't get any particular name. I just knew

00:27:20.859 - 00:27:43.949

that somebody had been appointed. And uh then at the meeting, I found that I was ma, well, the nature of uh of doctor bro's holiday because they uh uh, a lot. Yes, I would say it, it's, uh, uh, he said to me that it is very

00:27:43.959 - 00:28:03.819

important that you be there. Um, and, uh, um, I mean, from, from the fact, from the fact that I figured that some very important developments had taken place, uh, it could have meant that it was somebody you might have been very happy about, uh, the, the,

00:28:03.829 - 00:28:21.680

uh, at least about the person. But I'm saying I would have been a bit upset about the procedure. But, um, I think, uh I don't know what I should say. He can convey an alarm and suddenly made it sound as if it was that the serious

00:28:21.689 - 00:28:48.489

decisions was about to be made or had been made in the, the Nova as a member of the committee, did you, did you interpret his reaction situation is what I say? All right, I suppose now that it's sort of, um, you know, difficult to, to recollect

00:28:48.500 - 00:29:05.530

an advance, you know, you know what I, what I, what was then or the next day, uh, suddenly there, there was, I couldn't tell at the time whether it was dismay over the procedure or dismay over the appointment. I think there was some of these elements

00:29:05.540 - 00:29:29.439

in there than uh significant things have been happening that we, you were not that we normally should have been a prize of and had nothing. Uh We should have been or we thought we thought a robot in sort of a consulting capacity and especially, of course,

00:29:29.449 - 00:29:46.680

I must say I, I had talked with the people I knew had picked presidents. I, uh the president of Princeton, I was on the staff of Princeton. Um, when Goheen was appointed and uh I knew some of the people who were on the committee then and

00:29:46.689 - 00:30:00.209

well, at the time I didn't pay too much attention. I called them up and I asked them how they go. And they said, well, uh uh the way they explained to me, a very personal friend of mine who was on the family said, well, we uh

00:30:00.640 - 00:30:13.619

they affected most of the life work and that they presented various names to the board and the board essentially said yes or no to various suggestions. And that when they came up with somebody, they really want the board agreed that they, it was sort of all

00:30:13.630 - 00:30:29.300

in the hands of the committee. I talked to another friend of mine who was the Dean of the University of Kentucky where they had just picked the president. And he, he explained to me that it is in the bylaws of the university in the state charter

00:30:29.310 - 00:30:45.910

part of the university that the faculty committee uh must most the proof of the president has been taken that most of the work actually was done by members of the faculty and the administration and the board. But then in both of these cases, the board sort

00:30:45.920 - 00:30:59.319

of gave the assent, they let the, the faculty and administration do the work and they said yes or no to various candidates. And of course, they, they had some input but most of the work and most of the, and several other of the top schools in

00:30:59.329 - 00:31:17.510

the country that I talked to, uh they had looked upon this as this being uh that the board's authority. Uh the board has final authority and final say, but there really, it should be a man that uh um if something that has to be somebody who

00:31:17.520 - 00:31:28.959

works primarily with the faculty and that if the faculty can live with them and the faculty fields, this is the man who would bring credit to the university and the board then feels that he can indeed do the job and that they can work with him.

00:31:29.180 - 00:31:45.469

Uh That's the decision was made. So we, I honestly uh was had this as a kind of a frame of reference and that this was done in, in some of the better schools in the country. And uh that if you had gotten from this DD, if

00:31:45.479 - 00:31:59.819

you don't have other contempt of the faculty, if you respect the faculty and if you think they're competent and have decent judgment, uh that this is the way it is done in these places. So when the thing was, so when we, this is what the top

00:31:59.829 - 00:32:22.380

we were doing, it obviously, it turned out rather differently. It was obviously a shock. I must frankly confess that if, um, uh, I would have been disappointed if they had picked Jesus Christ. But, uh, I think, uh, let's say this is technically idealized the, um, man

00:32:22.390 - 00:32:37.060

for, you know, somebody with no fault. But, uh, I guess I would have said, well, it, it, it's too bad. I wish we would have picked them. But this is a great man and, and that's it. But uh on the procedure was uh o of, of

00:32:37.069 - 00:32:55.819

such a passion that was completely inconsistent with uh what a self-respect. Well, well, let's say what the top universities are doing, what has become established in the leading universities to be the procedure that is followed. And this is the kind of university we think we want

00:32:55.829 - 00:33:11.739

to be. Uh but this was contrary to that and obviously was uh uh uh rather of a shock. Uh uh I sort of looked at the faculty and the subsequent discussions with members of the board. Uh they looked at it from a quite different point of

00:33:11.750 - 00:33:28.420

view. They are not faculty members. Of course, they looked upon this is their responsibility and the they, what they're doing is fulfilling their responsibility and picking somebody and they're quite pleased to have uh the advice of the faculty. If they think it is, they need it.

00:33:29.050 - 00:33:43.829

Uh And uh which means obviously, they don't think they need it. They, they want to ask for it or uh in, in a very, in, in, in, in a very sincere and straightforward way. Uh It's just that this way of looking at the faculty, I guess

00:33:43.839 - 00:34:02.260

it was, was a bit dismaying and uh once the committee has been appointed and something as sensitive as this, the way I uh then I think it, it, it becomes extremely sense, you know, I use it on the N word, not, not to pay attention to

00:34:02.270 - 00:34:20.479

it. And, uh, the, uh, it is very difficult not to have the feeling that one has been helping contempt, uh, or, or being seen with contempt. Uh, if one is put in a position there's a significant of that. And then so, well, you've been a good

00:34:20.489 - 00:34:45.899

boy and, uh, we don't need you anymore. Uh, so I would say personally, uh, that I, I don't, uh, you know, I, I can, uh, if it had been a, a man that I would have been really excited about, uh, I'm not the one who wants

00:34:45.909 - 00:35:08.050

to stick that much on procedure and, and, uh, it would have been different. Yeah. Mhm. Mm. At the time you, uh, you went to the meeting was, uh, do you recall what your attitude are you looking forward to it? Yeah. I said, I look forward to

00:35:08.060 - 00:35:23.590

it. I may determine to see if I was gonna get raped. Uh, that, that's about, that's about the feeling I had because I had strong feelings the decision had been made, the more I thought about it and the more I thought about how this is, uh,

00:35:24.060 - 00:35:40.159

went along with, I thought about the universities were doing around the country and the way we've been through that, that's about the kind of feeling I had. And in fact I expressed these exact terms to one of the committee members as we entered the room. Ok.

00:35:42.310 - 00:35:57.080

What was the reaction? Um, and he looked rather aghast because he didn't know what was going on. And I, I didn't know either. I just guess I told him, I think we're gonna get raped and, and uh uh uh you called him when you, when you

00:35:57.129 - 00:36:18.080

said it, I think it's all, it's cut out. Uh No, he was not anticipating this. Yeah, I think it is called. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Uh He didn't tell us what, what he knew of, but he didn't tell us. Can you describe what happened at the

00:36:18.090 - 00:36:40.260

meeting? What your reaction? Well, uh Mr Allen, uh uh came and, and um told us that they had the med and that they had the, they had looked at the names that we had submitted and that the, the name of uh Doctor Masterson had been proposed

00:36:40.270 - 00:36:57.699

and that had discussed this, uh that there was unanimous, I think that there was unanimous support for him that they felt is a man that they knew and uh that they think would do an excellent job for Rice University. And that they felt uh would have

00:36:57.709 - 00:37:16.939

the support of the faculty. I felt he was a colleague of ours that we knew him, that we liked him. And that, uh I mean, this is roughly how I recall it. And um then the Mr he already knew, having talked to Mr Ronson, what likely

00:37:16.949 - 00:37:39.659

our reaction might be. Uh The first reaction came from David Salsberry who uh did something to the effect that he was just aghast amazed, oh, him. But they been pointed in the whole thing. And, uh, I, um, I guess I was next to spoke and I

00:37:39.669 - 00:37:56.520

thought, I told him, I thought that there would be a, a very unpleasant reaction from the faculty because I personally was quite unhappy. Uh, but that wasn't really important that I felt that the faculty as a whole, uh, and a whole num a number of people

00:37:56.530 - 00:38:18.409

specifically, uh would be tremendously upset both by the procedure and by the man and, uh, then brought in. So that is that I think the three of us were the ones who were the most, uh outspoken in our feelings, negative feelings on the matter. Uh Some

00:38:18.419 - 00:38:35.979

of the other people weren't quite so for all the students and we had sort of a long uh back and forth. Mr Allen at that time at that time, was feeling that the, uh, this was indeed a very bad way to pick the man and that

00:38:35.989 - 00:38:53.330

they should have really consulted with us, but he used the term in the rush of events. Um the uh you know, uh you can, once you have talked to them, you can postpone the things and, and all that. And uh in effect, he was ma he

00:38:53.340 - 00:39:09.020

was apologizing for the fact that they had not consulted with us. And um he also giving the script that Hilda was a good man and he used the term uh one of his qualifications was especially he, what they thought was important that he had good connections

00:39:09.030 - 00:39:27.229

in the community uh that he also was in a time of student. And that it was important to have a man to have a strong hand on the teller that we should not postpone getting a present any longer than was absolutely necessary. And uh this phrase,

00:39:27.239 - 00:39:45.399

a hand on the teller was quickly picked up by the student and a strong hand on the teller. And um we, we thought it was, it was a, I would say a very frank meeting with Mr Teague who did not speak so much. Uh And uh

00:39:45.409 - 00:40:01.830

with uh Mr Allen, um we felt then that we should make some sort of announcement to the faculty as a whole. And France Bronson, uh we then discussed uh said that they should be there or at least Allen should be there to present this news to

00:40:01.840 - 00:40:22.830

the faculty. Um And uh he then of course agree very gracious Mr Allen was most gracious throughout all that. Uh, he was upset that we were upset. He was quite unhappy that we were unhappy. Uh It was, I think a very unpleasant experience for him and,

00:40:22.840 - 00:40:35.389

uh, I think we were all civilized and polite people that we didn't try to make it any unpleasant than it had to be. But we're also serious about the matter that we felt, be able to tell them exactly how we felt and how we think our

00:40:35.399 - 00:40:57.889

colleagues would see. And, uh, so on the, on the whole, it was one of these inevitably unpleasant things. Uh, the hand of all the students were quite outspoken. The, and, and, uh, so, uh, and we then decided to have the meeting first, we were gonna have

00:40:57.899 - 00:41:15.810

the meeting on the Saturday morning. But, uh, Doctor Bros said that he could not leave the meeting. We had a Saturday morning because we had some money. Then we said, well, maybe we ought to have it Friday. Then Desio said that what if we have it

00:41:15.820 - 00:41:27.510

Friday? He couldn't be there because he was gonna be out of town. And then I think we had left and that was to be Saturday. But then the news broke in over the wires and they fell then on Friday that we should have the meeting that

00:41:27.520 - 00:41:41.139

very day because the thing was getting to be public and we should have it. So, um, it wasn't, I think a number of people have. So thea he was absent at the meeting, which a number of our colleagues. So they had interpreted that he didn't want

00:41:41.149 - 00:41:56.610

to be around on the uh whenever the expression of distent among the faculty. Uh And therefore he was out of town on that Friday. Uh He, he picked the time to be out of town and that, that's quite incorrect because he wanted the meeting to be

00:41:56.620 - 00:42:13.590

on Saturday because he was gonna be out of town on Friday. And it had been agreed that he would be, it would be on Saturday. It was only picked to be on Friday when it was quite clear. The knees had broken. Uh, and, and, uh, the,

00:42:13.600 - 00:42:30.290

uh, because it was, uh, it had, it had gotten all over town, the news, a reporter from the Chronicle called me on Friday morning and said to me that, uh, we have a newswire from, uh, uh, coming out of Chattanooga saying that, uh, Mr Doctor Masterson

00:42:30.540 - 00:42:44.449

has accepted the presidency. A right. And what I thought of that and I thought, well, that was interesting news in Chattanooga was like, come on, Don Blake Coy. Uh, you know, we know that, you know, I said, well, I can't come and, uh, uh, you know,

00:42:44.459 - 00:42:59.399

they want the fish on and said, look, I can't come now. And, uh, I guess I saw a kind of upset and he said, well, you sound upset and, uh, the, uh, I said, well, after I found the, that and they said, well, now we know

00:43:00.439 - 00:43:16.510

and, uh, you know, and, and, uh, you say more than no common, more than one and then, uh, you know, uh, put the bed by dinner because it was all that in, you know, because people are already coming around and, and talking and, and, uh, yeah,

00:43:18.889 - 00:43:35.189

what happened after this Thursday on that day, you know, uh, regarding this event? No, no, I think the board told us the reason that Mr Allen explained to us, the reason for why they did and that they were sorry, they did it that way. We told

00:43:35.199 - 00:43:51.639

them how we felt about it and how we think the faculty reacted and the decision has been made, announce it as a fact. And uh that was all that was uh the side of it. If you already had the impression of that, that uh not only

00:43:51.649 - 00:44:09.159

was uh Mr Allen upset about uh the way things were handled, but the heat itself had nothing to do with the way it was handled. Uh No, I don't know whether he had, didn't have anything to do with it. He never made excuses for himself. He

00:44:09.169 - 00:44:25.580

never said that he had nothing to do with it and that it wasn't his, uh I don't think that would be Miss Allen's uh character. Uh I didn't, I didn't really know him that well, but uh he wasn't uh making any excuses, uh for himself, he

00:44:25.590 - 00:44:48.929

was representing the board and it was his decision as a member of the board's decision of which he was a member. Um, but this was, was a sign of the phone. Ok. Well, if you were probably OK, or, or, well, Friday morning, various faculty members were,

00:44:48.939 - 00:45:09.810

were, uh, finding out about it indirectly and how news leaked out. I don't know. And several of them came to my office. Um, and, um, I remember one in particular, uh, who was hopping mad because of the procedure. He didn't know yet who was, and I

00:45:09.899 - 00:45:29.469

could just see how he would react on the, on the earth about the name because he was only mad with the procedure. Uh, well, Alan Grove. Yeah. And, uh, then because he was, uh, really unhappy, he heard about the, and then there was this very hastily

00:45:29.479 - 00:45:48.489

drawn up, uh, uh, p petition asking about the reconsider and expressing the, uh, oh, I forgot exactly what the position said. Uh, yeah, that's where I hate to be drawn in and just sort of very hastily, anybody that catches catch can about 60 people find it.

00:45:48.560 - 00:46:33.649

I think in about a half an hour I sign, were there any other conversations that day that set up and run human? No. Uh, it, it was, I, um, and that, and that, and that Friday, I, I don't recall anything. I mean, people sort of began

00:46:33.659 - 00:46:47.520

sort of the really sort of thing didn't develop until after the faculty meeting because, uh, since I knew what was going on and what sort of, uh, hell not to talk about it. And until it was made public I tried to stay out of things and,

00:46:47.530 - 00:47:17.250

and, uh, all those heads that are broken, uh, people. No, it's, it's, uh, I don't know how these things can happen. What do you talk about the, uh, back? Yeah. Ok. Do that. Sorry. Well, I think the, the, uh, the most, the most thing that impressed

00:47:17.260 - 00:47:33.979

me most at the fact of the meeting was, of course, the, uh the sort of a sense of determination and unity on the part of the faculty, I have a one hate confrontation, you know, and, uh I think the faculty on the whole has some. But

00:47:33.989 - 00:47:49.239

I think at, at that point there was a, I have never seen the right faculty and I didn't expect that the right faculty would sort of react with that much unity and would have that strong, a sense of what they consider to be proper and what

00:47:49.250 - 00:48:08.050

they would reject as being improper. Uh And the number of people like Jack Ward, for instance, who uh displayed tremendous courage and an issue that was completely a matter of ideal and, well, he, he was willing to put his, his right career on the line, which

00:48:08.060 - 00:48:28.489

maybe he did, uh, and spoke, uh, you know, very eloquently. And of course, there are a few faculty people who will always come up into, uh, uh, you know, uh sort of say things and, uh, uh, you know, sort of go against the general stream. But

00:48:28.500 - 00:48:46.750

in this case, it, it was the people who sort of had looked upon as being so responsible, uh, that, that, uh, or, you know, in the past had not taken, uh, thing who were at the confrontation time. And in fact, some other people who you might

00:48:46.760 - 00:48:57.800

have expected to, instead of trying to want to stay in the background because they knew they were identified as people are always against it. So they had, and they didn't want to speak out because they felt that that might do harm to the cause. So it

00:48:57.810 - 00:49:11.939

was a tremendous sense of, you know, the thing that, of course, um I, I guess the thing is that, that surprised me most and, and II, I sort of left the greatest impression. I mean, when we left the meeting and the students were all standing there

00:49:12.050 - 00:49:24.669

and we were applauding and I think they were essentially applauding that they felt we stood up for what we believed in. They didn't care what it was we believed in. I don't think because they didn't know my system. But I felt if we, if we felt

00:49:24.679 - 00:49:39.959

that strongly about an issue, we ought to stand up for it and having stood up for it, uh They felt that this, uh, students are basically idealistic and, and uh uh they felt this was a very important thing and, and uh so they, they applauded and

00:49:39.969 - 00:50:00.260

they sort of had a, uh, give me a strange sense uh of, uh, I don't know what, what uh it was because the right students are typically very critical of the faculty and I'm not very generous. Uh And, and so they have this kind of response

00:50:00.270 - 00:50:17.679

and a sort of a sense of solidarity of the academic community. It was in, in a sense probably in, um was it as comforting as if I have the uh because it had never happened before? And uh I must say throughout all the day, I always

00:50:17.689 - 00:50:33.330

felt extremely uneasy, mainly because I uh I hate this kind of thing. I just hate it with a passion and uh what I hate most about it that it sort of tend to push people in the position that they didn't really want to take and uh

00:50:33.340 - 00:50:49.600

that some other people who are, who are very good friends of mine who are very passive. Let's the other ones that are cowards. I just said they're very passive and refuse to get involved and were treated as cowards and as lacking any uh anything and, and

00:50:49.610 - 00:51:04.179

that I hated most of all because I know they are good people and, and uh I hated to see them treated by their colleagues at the time because they, they, they just didn't want to take a partici participate in. But I think that for the majority

00:51:04.189 - 00:51:18.530

of them have said, well, here's an issue where, uh, it was very important that, uh, the fact that they make known how they feel about it, there's no, no way to be used. Uh, that's true. That's true. You see, so if you weren't for it, you

00:51:18.540 - 00:51:35.000

were a traitor. And I, I hate any situation where one cannot be neutral. Uh Even if myself, I had not chosen to be neutral because I had very strong feeling um uh as to what I thought should have been the way it should have been known

00:51:35.010 - 00:51:56.979

and also about the uh but I thought I, while Masterson was here, he was always kind to me. Uh he never broke a promise with me. Personally, I served on a number of committees that he had picked me to serve on. And I had never any

00:51:56.989 - 00:52:15.469

personal reasons to complain. On the other hand, I knew of many colleagues that had had quite different experiences that I was never in any administrative position. All the colleagues I know had difficulties with primary in administrative positions. I know he had taken a number of positions

00:52:15.479 - 00:52:32.129

that I could have never Condoned. And in certain types of procedures in the university positions, taken on promotions positions, taken on raises by people which I consider petty and vindictive. And I think uh my feeling was to have a president in that kind of capacity would

00:52:32.139 - 00:52:44.969

be a disaster. I felt that personally, I might have made out quite well with him because he had always liked me and always treated me nicely and, and, uh, he was inclined to sort of have people that he trusted around him and that I disliked in

00:52:44.979 - 00:53:02.570

itself because I think it should be an open forum and that any time, especially the higher behold, you're surrounded by a group of people that uh you sort of personally trust. Um The uh then, then it is always very dangerous. Uh It is a very dangerous

00:53:02.580 - 00:53:17.550

precedent. So that even though in a sense, I was a beneficiary of his trust, I thought the whole idea of running a show that way was bad. And uh I was personally very chagrined that master ever got into this because I never had any reason personally

00:53:17.560 - 00:53:37.129

to dislike him. But I, I was uh felt very strongly that he should not be president and, and uh that the, that, well, I wouldn't mind having him at all as a colleague, as a matter of fact. Uh And uh I was master during college for

00:53:37.139 - 00:53:49.209

one time and while he was a master and we had very good relations. And uh as a matter of fact, when he was out of the deanship, he was a real good guy to have around and while he was in the deanship and had some of

00:53:49.219 - 00:54:03.600

his responsibilities, it was very hard on him, I thought, and it was hard on some of the people that had to deal with him. And I just thought that for his own sake and for right, uh he should not be our president and, and uh because

00:54:03.610 - 00:54:17.840

I knew how many colleagues, some of some good colleagues that uh just would not want to stay here and now and many others and that this would be to start off on this foot would be a disaster for him and very bad for rice and that

00:54:17.850 - 00:54:34.659

the people who had made the decision just were not fully aware of how widespread and how deep some of these feelings were. And then there was uh all and the main, not his character. Uh And also, of course, it did not at all fit in with

00:54:34.669 - 00:54:53.370

the kind of image of an outstanding scholar. And that of course, was very important, a leader uh that we had, that had traditionally been the vice president president and uh this on top of the procedures that of all uh made it a very painful experience. Um

00:54:54.260 - 00:55:10.919

I uh I had close conversations with members of the board uh over that weekend since God assignment was the chairman of our committee and he all at any time you need wanna tell something. Don't hesitate to call me. I called him Friday and Saturday night rather

00:55:10.929 - 00:55:24.429

late. As a matter of fact, I think it was around eight or nine o'clock and I just wanted to pass on to him. What I thought, uh, um, was the feeling that there was considerable unrest on campus which initially he sort of misinterpreted. He thought there

00:55:24.439 - 00:55:40.689

was sort of, uh, disorder and, uh, he was immediately quite concerned as whether you should call in the police. I said, no, I don't think there was anything like that. Um, I, uh, I said that it's of a different kind. Well, he had, he was, they

00:55:40.699 - 00:55:53.100

were just a brother preparing his daughter to making arrangements for his daughter's marriage and he was coming off and had people there get the in laws to be and so on. So he said, look, if you wanna talk, I can't talk. Now, if you really wanna

00:55:53.110 - 00:56:03.110

talk, why don't you come by tomorrow morning? But he says he, he offered to come by my house. I didn't know I'll come by his house. And so I went there there Sunday morning. We had, we talked for about an hour and a half. So I

00:56:03.129 - 00:56:19.090

covered the whole role of the university and, and uh how faculty felt. And uh he um of course, was very strong behind the, the board's decision that it was the unanimous decision of the board. And that under no circumstance, could the board or would the board

00:56:19.100 - 00:56:34.300

change its mind? And I was quite convinced after talking with him that indeed this was the case and that if it had come to any sort of a showdown, but he was quite prepared if need be to shut down the university to uh uh to go

00:56:34.310 - 00:56:52.979

to. He felt that the authority of the board uh was being questioned and that this was utterly intolerable and that the, the welfare of the university in the long run development of the university would be gravely hurt if the board moved one inch on this. And

00:56:52.989 - 00:57:10.179

therefore, uh he said it was his responsibility not to give one inch and seeing it in this light. Uh, uh, he's not a man to shrink back from what he thinks is his responsibility in this case. And in this case, he felt his responsibility must stand

00:57:10.189 - 00:57:26.169

pat even if it means having to close down the stool. And, uh, so, um, we had a very personally, very amiable chat and, and so on, but he made it very clear that the board did not touch, at least as far as he was concerned and

00:57:26.179 - 00:57:43.830

he was, and also, you know, the contract had been extended and had been accepted and there was no way legally in which the board could back out and, uh, that the board, uh, if, you know, you can know what some of the board could suggest, ma

00:57:43.840 - 00:57:58.840

and then they couldn't break the con because I could have, you know, whether in view of the development, uh, if he LS issues back out, uh, but they didn't, they didn't want that. Uh, they wanted him to stay because that was the decision they thought they

00:57:58.850 - 00:58:20.899

had made the right decision. Uh The, the procedural matter was a strictly secondary considerations. Uh I think to him, the uh oh, the question is that this was their responsibility. They had fulfilled their legal responsibility and that was it. And they were gonna stick by that.

00:58:21.889 - 00:58:35.030

And so, um anyhow, we, we, I told him how I felt the faculty f I at the time, didn't think uh the faculty was feeling quite as strongly as it turned out to feel. And I obviously was sort of hardly wishful thinking on my part because

00:58:35.040 - 00:58:54.350

I just sort of hated to see any kind of confrontation and, and, um, uh I had sort of hope that, you know, well, if that's it, that's it. Uh uh that's where we are and see what happens next. But when I came back, I must say,

00:58:54.360 - 00:59:13.489

for until Tuesday, my phone rang practically continuously and I had a very good feeling as to how the faculty was progressive, getting more work done. And then some people had all kinds of extreme things in mind and, and, uh, you know, no, nothing ever, very specific,

00:59:13.500 - 00:59:27.679

but uh all the suggestions that uh no matter what happens, we're not gonna accept them. I spend most of my time saying I'm gonna come on, you know, but this is not, this is not the end of the world or something like that. Uh uh So

00:59:27.689 - 00:59:45.110

I wasn't happy with the situation. I suddenly felt that with some people seemingly so that work done, then of course, suddenly there were meetings all over the place and, and, uh, uh, once people found, found out how strong the feelings were then, so from Sunday there

00:59:45.120 - 01:00:00.500

was no, no going back and, uh, Dean Gordon became quite concerned as to what was going on and to what he ought to do, uh, in order to keep things from, from getting out of hand, uh, because we have a subs of contingent of young faculty

01:00:00.510 - 01:00:16.560

members who, you know, uh, no, I don't know. Some, some of them I felt were real hotheads. And Dean Gordon wants to know exactly what the situation was and said it was his job to keep in close contact. He called the meeting Sunday afternoon at which

01:00:16.570 - 01:00:31.469

I was present, which we thought, you know, what, what can we do to sort of keep the, the lid on things and, and keep, uh, the university from being shut down and keep from building, being occupied with all, uh, firebombs being drawn and keep things in

01:00:31.479 - 01:00:47.875

an order we discussed and keep the channels of communication open. And it was felt then, uh at the meeting, the meeting urged Dean Gordon at that time to take a hold of the faculty so we can report precisely because the, the board still feel felt very

01:00:47.885 - 01:01:02.475

strongly. There's just a few people who are unhappy with the appointment and a few people who worried about the procedure, uh, for my numerous contacts and phone calls, I knew there was a large number and I thought we ought to know exactly how people do feel

01:01:02.485 - 01:01:17.889

about it. And, uh, well, the only thing we can do then is, is to have a, have a poll and it should be a secret poll. So everybody should be completely free to, um, express his opinion. Well, we suggested that to Dean Gordon and he was

01:01:17.899 - 01:01:31.570

willing to ask the department chairman to have that kind of a poll and that's what was taken, of course on Monday. And then the, the results were never made public uh thing. And quite a few people know roughly what they want. And, uh, of course, this

01:01:31.580 - 01:01:46.110

is one thing when it was communicated to Masterson. And I think it would have been very unfair to Masterson not to tell him how the, how the faculty felt because I think this was the main uh factor in his decision to withdraw when he knew exactly

01:01:46.120 - 01:02:06.520

what the situation was I think. Um, and I personally think that things worked out really, uh as well as could have been expected under the circumstances. Was there any require in this four day weekend when you began to think that that, uh, the only way is

01:02:06.590 - 01:02:28.219

for, well, the people matress need to be done uh for the unilateral. Yeah. Yeah. I also thought he would resign. I, uh by Sunday noon, having talked to quite a few people, I, I predicted that Mason would resign. Uh Not that he really necessarily would want

01:02:28.229 - 01:02:45.959

to, but I sort of trying to understand on what it would take for a man to want to confront this kind of a situation. And nowadays, and I said it looked so hopeless and Masterson is a very intelligent person and has some sense of what can

01:02:45.969 - 01:02:59.350

be done and cannot be done and, and, and what hopeless situations are. And then I had that feeling that only the most foolhardy person would want to step into this and that one of the things he would come once he began to realize what would be

01:02:59.360 - 01:03:17.340

the situation. And that, uh II, I felt then there were two things that would happen. Either things would sort of um die down very quickly and, and, uh but I didn't think too much that I didn't, I wasn't, didn't think this was likely to happen because

01:03:17.770 - 01:03:34.350

there were so many people who had such strong feelings about it. You see, and uh so many people who were willing to resign on the spot and you were willing to leave. Uh and, and uh or, or not come back if, if they were on leave,

01:03:34.360 - 01:03:48.219

sometimes if this was the case that uh and some others who said I will never resign so long as they see, and I'll stay here and then I'll do the, you know, uh, uh, which I, which I can even move both of them. Uh, it's ma

01:03:48.229 - 01:04:07.270

mainly because II I am not the, I'm by nature, I'm not the fighting type. Um, so I figured under the circumstances, uh, if this keeps up, if this, if these feelings, uh, and they seem to be getting more widespread by the minute, because many of the,

01:04:07.280 - 01:04:23.439

many of the, uh, so the sordid stories the real or invented came to the fore and they were spreading very rapidly and it just was inconceivable to me. And some of the things that I think will never be hope will never be repeated because the basis

01:04:23.449 - 01:04:42.830

of facts are very flimsy and, and uh uh I could only see that if, if you should come by the time summer comes around, there will be so much of an uproar and these stories will have multiplied and grown by then so badly that it would

01:04:42.840 - 01:05:01.760

be an absolutely impossible situation. I know a few of them that I knew to be true because I knew the people personally who had unpleasant experiences, uh mainly sort of involving bad judgment and a part of me and, and, and sometimes just awkward procedures that I

01:05:01.770 - 01:05:17.040

would call it. So, so, um, and, and uh not all of it one sided, sometimes the people you had to deal with were not very cooper either. Uh But uh I think these, these stories is the, the the, the things that I was getting out of

01:05:17.050 - 01:05:32.350

hand and I just couldn't imagine that if he has a number of his friends. Uh, Cordell friends is a very good friend of mine and they quite prepared to explain to him. I talked to Cordell on the phone and passed on to him, but I knew

01:05:32.360 - 01:05:46.409

what was going on and that, uh, how unfortunate all this was and how unfair to master and, you know, that he sort of got drawn into this in a manner with these stories and I was spreading and, and some of them found to get invented and

01:05:46.419 - 01:06:01.169

explore and, and expanded whether through or not. And that's how terrible a man would have to step into this. And um because they, who had always felt was always strong in type of mass, uh I felt, you know, it would be impossible for him to take

01:06:01.179 - 01:06:23.330

over the presidency or something of the university in this situation because it is difficult when you have everybody on your side nowadays and to get into this, of course, it isn't very and discipline. So, um this is uh I, I think it's uh one of those

01:06:23.340 - 01:06:43.050

things where different my feeling was that the way the faculty looked at the university and the way the board looked at the university, they were entirely two different worlds. And uh what they thought was the right thing to do the right procedure and what the faculty

01:06:43.060 - 01:07:06.219

thought was an acceptable thing just didn't meet. And that, uh, I also felt that casual contact between the pet and the board was disaster. E especially under these kind of circumstances. And that the, I, I would say, II, I still rather unhappy about the whole situation

01:07:06.229 - 01:07:26.659

that, uh, some people who basically, it's, it's a situation where it's a kind of a game where either both sides lose or both sides win. It's not, it's not a management labor situation where if you have lower wages, you may have higher profit. It's not bad

01:07:26.669 - 01:07:40.409

at all. It's either we both win or we both lose and having so much in common. And really basically the same ideas, I think we may look at them differently because we have the same ideals that have gotten in a situation. We have such a bad

01:07:40.840 - 01:08:00.169

uh such a, a different way of looking at it on such a crucial issue to me, sort of reflected um a very serious situation which I think still exists. And uh the only man that can solve a situation like this is the kind of president that

01:08:00.179 - 01:08:14.270

can really represent the faculty of the board and the board of the faculty that is a really intermediary. Anybody who becomes president is the board's boy or is the faculty's boy that's gonna be disastrous because he's really got to be the link in the middle and

01:08:14.280 - 01:08:29.810

he's gonna shield one from the other very literally and fits of it. And uh so uh the uh he better not tell all the board what the faculty is talking about and better not tell the faculty everything the board is talking about. Because I think the

01:08:29.819 - 01:08:43.330

the there are two different worlds, they do overlap and then they have goals in common and they have certain things in common, but they also have a different, a different view of the world, a different conceptions of their role, a different conception of the university. Uh

01:08:43.740 - 01:09:01.430

And I think uh this can be successfully bridged by uh a president. And after going through all this experience, my main qualification for a president is that the kind of leader of the Ken Bridge did. And, and uh a man who is sensible, has his feet

01:09:01.439 - 01:09:16.000

on the ground, understands how to deal with the fact that he knows how to deal with the ball, can interpret the anxieties and aspirations of one to the and the concerns of one to the other, knows what to tell them and knows what not, what not

01:09:16.009 - 01:09:32.290

to tell. Uh This is, this is a crucial, this is not gonna be easy men, Toine. I don't think it's an impossible attack. I think that quite a few people around including some former graduates would probably could fulfill this kind of a role uh in this

01:09:32.299 - 01:09:50.560

day and age. And maybe it is wrong to suspect that I think that uh it would have to be an outstanding, uh you know, scholars in the world's reputation. Maybe this is maybe right, the right faculty can establish its own uh reputation doesn't mean that much

01:09:50.569 - 01:10:04.540

on the president than it has in the past. And there's now a more solidly established and a larger faculty, it has gone through a major period of growth. On the other hand, it obviously helps to have a man on top who is himself uh blaze the

01:10:04.549 - 01:10:23.669

trail here or there. And uh but from in the day to day operations, uh it becomes very important that uh he can tie the board and the and the packages together and keep a hand in the community. I know uh quite a few people on the

01:10:23.680 - 01:10:47.990

board. See if that this is where Pita did not fulfill his role completely because Mr Ron has been around has essentially carried that level for him and uh uh maybe a man can do everything. Uh and, but I think in order of significance, the con the

01:10:48.000 - 01:11:06.660

relation with the contact between board and faculty is the most important uh and very close to this is also the student. Um the uh and, and the next to that is across the community. And at the end, the alumni, I think they're all important. I sort

01:11:06.669 - 01:11:18.395

of include the alumni. I think these, these are all important parts that have to be kept together and that the present ideally should be very good at dealing with. But I think that's sort of an order of priority if you choose the, somebody who gets along

01:11:18.404 - 01:11:32.604

fine with the community and the board and the alumni, but uh has no real connection and real understanding of the sense and aspiration of the pack against students. I think it'd be a disaster and it would be a disaster that a man who only knows how

01:11:32.615 - 01:11:51.990

to pack against students feel but can somehow feel how, what makes the board they all about the about the role of the community and the the element should be. I think that's also that. So this uh um because nobody is completely deficient in all of these,

01:11:52.020 - 01:12:04.509

uh nobody is completely perfect in all. And one has to sort of pick and choose one can trade off one for the other but not, not completely uh a president who does not have the trust of the faculty or the trust of the board is out

01:12:04.520 - 01:12:18.899

no matter what he does with the alumni and the student, a president does not have the trust that the alumni may do quite well. I, you know, I it be sort of a hindrance on occasion but that trust he could, he could earn a lot more.

01:12:19.129 - 01:12:34.549

He would, it, it is something that's not as immediate, the more immediate the contact, obviously, the more important it is and the more the more frequent the contact. Uh and uh he would have more, I think anybody be appointed the alumni and the community are willing

01:12:34.560 - 01:12:49.399

to give him a chance. Um, I think with ma, by the fact that it would not have given them a chance because they had made up their mind, they knew them. I, I thought, I knew and I guess they don't, they do know that. And, uh,

01:12:49.870 - 01:13:06.490

so that this is because these, these are all my opinions and, and, uh, incidentally on, on, on, on this sort of thing, how much of this is public record or what, what is all of these? Well, none of none of this public record or will it

01:13:06.500 - 01:13:24.589

ever be, it will never be uh all of the archives tapes and the time scripts uh I think it will be for until October 1st 1974. Uh The time we send you A T and just have today is very, yes, I don't think there's any way

01:13:24.600 - 01:13:40.430

even if we probably anything else that we can get this done and trying to get it to you before. But the at the time that we send it to you, yeah, you a, a release form which turns over the property rights to university archives here, it

01:13:40.459 - 01:13:58.919

will be sign and you may indicate on that uh on that form. If you uh care to restrict any of your comments, you'll have a top script in front of you the by page or paragraph for a longer period than five years. Um Then uh I

01:13:58.930 - 01:14:16.229

say everything will be closed for five years after that time, it would be is uh modified research project by com and they could not quote you directly without your written permission from then on. Uh the, the, the form that we send you will detail these. Uh

01:14:17.169 - 01:14:39.339

so that, oh, but um that actually, yes, yes. Yes. It, it will not be much better, not even members of the project for, for five years. Uh, A couple of things that come up during the, the conversation, I'd like to push you back just briefly. Uh

01:14:39.350 - 01:14:55.200

I didn't wanna know if you call that going on. You mentioned that uh some of the casual contacts between the board and faculty during this weekend were disastrous. No, no, I didn't mean it that way. And this was sort of a general observation. Um OK. And

01:14:55.209 - 01:15:11.629

this is a somewhat of a, of a paraphrase of one of Dean Richter's victim dicta. Uh He Dean Richer will always tell you that he's been here at R for how long now for some 40 years. And one of his basic principles has always been that

01:15:11.640 - 01:15:26.310

keep the faculty and, and the board apart each side think that the other side is brilliant until they meet each other. And then there's the delusion and uh you know, this sort of ones counter the modern view is that you should have a lot of communication,

01:15:26.319 - 01:15:39.180

a lot of exchange, I think uh that uh I, I sort of tend to agree a bit with Dean Rich on this, that it's not as a casual and not as the contacts between members of the board and this and on the weekend they were not

01:15:39.189 - 01:15:59.240

disastrous because, uh, these were mostly between people who already had previous contacts and so on. But I sort of found that unless one could sort of have a much longer and more intimate contact, uh, because we start from different premises and have different values that just

01:15:59.250 - 01:16:14.109

sort of have a sort of a casual confrontation now and then over an issue, if an important issue, it's likely more likely to lead to a clash than to a community of opinion. So this sort of a compact as a general proposition, not with regard to

01:16:14.120 - 01:16:29.990

that weekend, but as a general proposition to try to solve university problems, better communication, but I sort of have sort of casual contact uh that I don't think is an answer to anything. Uh I, I think the only on, on this score, I think the only

01:16:30.000 - 01:16:46.759

thing in long solution would be to have some faculty members on the Board of Governors where they can elected members who can speak for the mind of the faculty and who are responsible people. Uh and sort of have a selective continuous contact rather than casual random

01:16:46.770 - 01:17:01.799

contact. And I think that's bad. I don't think that gets us anywhere. Uh Either it is completely innocuous like you know, Mr Litke, a member of the board had a, a nice party at his house. Shortly after. There were quite a few faculty people who were

01:17:01.810 - 01:17:15.759

invited and, and most of the board members when I was there, it was very pleasant. Uh we talked about, chatted about this or that, talked about everything except the situation. Now, this is all very pleasant, just like any other party, you know, uh but that doesn't

01:17:15.770 - 01:17:29.399

advance anything. And so most might best give one a misleading impression of what the other one is thinking. Uh The only time one really gets somewhere is gonna have to deal with heart issues and then you can't have it on sort of a very random II

01:17:29.410 - 01:17:44.259

I had this feeling from talking with miss assignments on, on this uh on issues that we do agree on. It's very easy to have random contact on issues where we have a disagreement. That's like the thing of the ma situation. It would take an awful lot

01:17:44.270 - 01:18:00.189

of exchanging of sort of supporting information as to why we think in this way and that way and then why we disagree on that before we could sort of have a see that something that we basically want the same thing, why we view it so differently,

01:18:00.540 - 01:18:13.770

we see nothing and that it is different. Now, if there were faculty members on the board of governors that they are now in more and more schools, uh then this kind of a service would be rendered that they would really know better. They don't really know

01:18:13.779 - 01:18:27.270

what the factors. As a matter of fact, they have the foggiest notion of the board thing. A few factors they do, but the most facts, some of them are very naive and some of them are very idealistic and uh some board members are, are uh rather

01:18:27.279 - 01:18:41.080

misinformed as to what kind of animals they have on this fact. I don't mean animals in any sense that they be. But then, you know, what sort of human beings have, you know, what kind of person as individuals and, and, and what makes them sick and,

01:18:41.089 - 01:18:59.580

and what makes them jump and, and what makes them behave. Question I want you to elaborate on um is you mentioned that uh and the fact check for us been very, been very eloquent uh that uh he may have uh he was willing to kill them

01:18:59.799 - 01:19:19.799

by this time, he put his hand on the line and may need for them. So, uh oh well, uh it's never advisable to uh be the leader in a confrontation. Uh The uh I mean, obviously everybody on the board knows now who Jack Ward is and

01:19:19.810 - 01:19:35.979

what Jack Ward did at the back of the meeting. I mean, they know they know who I am, they know where I stood and they know who Franz Bruton was. I mean, uh it would be uh uh you know, in, in, in terms of that iIn

01:19:36.470 - 01:19:53.339

not implying that they're gonna take any kind of revenge or retribution, but they're also not gonna go out of their way uh to uh appoint him, let's say, to an endowed chair, let's say, or to make him lean, you know, uh I would say this is

01:19:53.350 - 01:20:11.250

not in his favor. Let me put it this way and not drink water. Let's say, uh it's never good to be known in an unfavorable light by anybody. Does this suggest that before to have? Well, it does suggest that the board has to do more with

01:20:11.259 - 01:20:24.299

the operation and general operation the university than uh than they do in a lot of places. Oh, yeah. Would they be involved with the question of the? Oh, of course. I mean, they would uh they would certainly approve the board approves the, even the appointment of

01:20:24.310 - 01:20:38.450

an instructor in many schools. The department chairman can even appoint on a, on a up to a three year appointment and an assistant professor and he doesn't even have the, the, the permission of the atr, for instance, uh the department chairman can appoint a, an assistant

01:20:38.459 - 01:20:58.060

professor on a non tenure position. Anybody on a non tenure position without even the approval of the dean because it's a non tenure position, right? Not even an instructor is appointed, nobody is appointed without the approval of the board. Well, I, I think, oh, I think

01:20:58.069 - 01:21:12.580

in most instances, the, they don't really look into it in most instances of the routine matter, but, uh, it might not be a routine matter. In, in, in some case you see somebody, uh, the, uh, the R board is a and I'm talking about the board

01:21:12.589 - 01:21:28.899

of trustees, not the Board of Governors. It's really a working board that keeps a very close track of what kind of decisions are made. Many budgetary decisions that in, in most universities would be certainly in the hands of the president have to be made by the

01:21:28.910 - 01:21:48.459

board. Like for instance, rice, not even the president can authorize to shift, let's say $500 from a one B from a general budget item to a salary budget item. Let's say you need the secretary or you need some part time typing or something like that uh

01:21:48.470 - 01:22:04.459

which is a budget uh salary item. Uh and you have money in some other budget item that needs permission of the board to do. Now, the president can authorize between shifts between other types of items, between non silent. So this is a form of control, the

01:22:04.470 - 01:22:29.069

board exercises a much more detailed control, right? Than any universities I know of and um put in a lot more time and a lot more uh then, then uh and then mole so so they could just by negative uh attitude affect the career. Oh yeah, of

01:22:29.080 - 01:22:43.069

course, they could. And that, that, and that's not a useful situation, you can pull it off. I don't think so. No, no. I think it's more usually in the south but not, not in the east or on the west coast or in the big midwestern school

01:22:43.490 - 01:23:01.189

because most of those schools have much larger boards and they meet less frequently. You know, the, the Harvard board is very large and they, uh, the, the present is much more autonomy. Uh, I think if the president were to take a strong position on a situation

01:23:01.200 - 01:23:18.500

like this and any strong president would be likely to, um they would not, probably would not want to overrule the president. But you, it, it applies in a marginal case. And you see a president, you know, has he has, he can't fight over everything with a

01:23:18.509 - 01:23:32.439

board. There are some things he will have to fight over and he has to pick and choose the things that he's gonna make enough of an issue over. And if the guy got under the president's skin himself, uh he may not want to uh you know,

01:23:32.450 - 01:23:53.799

make, make any kind of uh and this, this, you see, this is why uh because of this, it is important to, to, to have the right kind of president uh president uh in a school like mine because the, the authority is highly centralized in the pre

01:23:54.589 - 01:24:13.430

and over him, it is highly centralized, concentrated on the board. He hasn't got all that much leeway, but below him there's very little leeway. Uh Our deans are essentially uh uh carry out the orders of the president. Uh I think in, in recent years, uh Gordon

01:24:13.529 - 01:24:30.370

and Topazio had in the last couple of years of Pitzer gotten a bit more elbow room. But before then, the president had been always highly centralized and Pitzer was inclined to a centralization because he was inclined to want to do everything himself. Uh uh He uh

01:24:30.379 - 01:24:44.560

he was the most remarkable administrator in every respect he kept in his willingness to delegate authority and he had a tremendous capacity for work and he had a tremendous range and tremendous memory. He was sometimes selected to some things he liked to forget and he had

01:24:44.569 - 01:25:04.020

to be reminded of. But uh it was uh he did highly concentrate things and, and uh very often was willing to talk to the department chairman, uh when he should have told him, no, you could see the dean first. You know, he was willing to talk

01:25:04.029 - 01:25:13.939

to the department chairman and they agree on something he said, well, you better talk to the Z now, what the hell that agree with. So he was sort of using the Z going around the back now in the last few, in the last couple of years,

01:25:13.950 - 01:25:27.779

especially after the Panza became the, uh I, I, I'm quite sure one of the conditions since the Panza had been a chairman. But sure, look, is there something I'm supposed to decide, I want to talk to them first and then they can talk to you if

01:25:27.790 - 01:25:39.470

they want to. And uh from then on it to sort of change the technique. And uh it was a lot easier on chairman because I got a dean to find your vital for the president. And because before then you think we had so many deans and

01:25:39.479 - 01:25:52.479

they shifted back and forth and we had for too many, too many acting deans. And when you have an acting dean, uh, and this, this contributed to the fact that the, now I personally like to work with pizza directly because you could always get a quick

01:25:52.490 - 01:26:07.160

answer. And, uh, he, uh, he knew even on things that he said, well, ok, it's ok, but I suppose I'll have to check on it to the board when he said, ok, he can count that the board would go with it partly because he knew what

01:26:07.169 - 01:26:23.890

the board student and this is what takes somebody who really understands the board and what they, uh, so he, he sees that thinking and, uh, it was very important. He anytime call us, uh, Mr Lovett and, and say, look Malcolm, I got this problem here and

01:26:23.899 - 01:26:52.299

this is what we want to do. And, uh, I never had to go a few times and Mr Lovitt is almost very Cooper. So I, I wanna ask her. Do you? Ok, great. No, I didn't. Uh, I was, I came down to the gym when the,

01:26:52.310 - 01:27:04.359

the meeting was just about over and I had to make some phone calls and came and walk back to my office. Uh, in fact, I walked a part of the way with the patient, but I was really walking past her and I wanna get to my

01:27:04.370 - 01:27:20.299

office because I had some appointment. I told someone I was gonna call him and then I was II, I went down but it took so long for Mason to come out there. And then I, I just left before he came out. Were there any more meetings

01:27:20.310 - 01:27:39.990

that occurred on the, yes, the, the Saturday night, Saturday night, all the colleges had meetings and, and, uh, I did, I was over at the Hanson College, uh, for a bit. But before the real college meeting had gotten started and, and I was very tired. I

01:27:40.000 - 01:27:56.899

was just exhausted and I just went home and went to bed because I just discovered I didn't have a stomach for this kind of stuff. And, uh, it really wore me down. And then I attended some of these meetings that Gordon called for department chairman and

01:27:56.910 - 01:28:16.189

student leaders on Monday and Tuesday. What was your impression about the, uh, about the, uh student, uh sentiment on the pain? Well, Sunday night, Monday, Monday night, uh, prior to Masters between the college meetings, the Masterson presentation. Did you feel that the, is there, uh, uh

01:28:16.220 - 01:28:34.799

ses were, were were escalating or, oh no, the, the sediments were really escalating on the part of the suit. And in fact, this was a matter of considerable concern because the feeling was, I, I think Warren Scarum just proved to be a tremendous individual and really

01:28:34.839 - 01:28:52.919

knew the phase or eye things and knew how to keep his mouth shut. And, um, uh, but he, he told us that things are going fine up to this point. But there were, you know, a group of uh SDS S who came out later on in

01:28:52.930 - 01:29:12.569

the context of the uh oh, what's his name? Call of Duty? The Freeman case who were quite prepared to make hay and uh that they were able to start to repress, I think, and, and there were a number of faculty who if things had faculty council

01:29:12.580 - 01:29:26.709

because they had been elected by the faculty as a whole. And this was the only body on campus uh other than the welfare company that it really elected for a different purpose. But that this was the, the most representative group of elected people on the campus

01:29:26.720 - 01:29:43.759

and that they could function very well then for a long time, nothing happened. And the next thing I heard was that uh in my recollection of it is that it actually had been suggested by the board, but I may be wrong on this. But at least

01:29:43.770 - 01:30:01.129

I think it was Dean Gordon who at the time, I think at some point that the board feels we ought to have an elected and, uh, therefore the machinery was set in motion to actually elect a group of people. I thought at the time. Well, that

01:30:01.140 - 01:30:14.904

makes no difference one way or the other. Uh, but we have specially elected or we already used people who have already been elected. But, uh, I was, I recall a bit surprised that the board fell, uh, because that was my understanding of it. I'm not sure

01:30:14.915 - 01:30:34.015

whether this was really. So now the board felt that that really there should be a group of people specifically specifically elected for this purpose, which I took to be an indication that uh they were quite serious on getting representative input into the choice from the faculty.

01:30:34.174 - 01:30:53.270

And of course, we had a uh first um nomination and the nominations were paired down to a manageable number of voter had elections. And in this fashion, I was elected to be on that committee. Did the um I don't know sure in my mind who is

01:30:53.279 - 01:31:14.279

on the back of the council with this live, the new people? Let me see. Uh Zvi Salzburg, I think had just gone off the council and uh he was elected Franz Braden, I think had just been elected on the council and was elected topazio, of course,

01:31:14.580 - 01:31:29.930

uh was on the council and was also elected, there was quite a bit of overlap. In fact, I think there were only one or two people that would have been different. Had there not been a separate selection? So it was a and Alan Chapman was on

01:31:29.939 - 01:31:55.490

the council and was also elected on this. So I believe um uh well, because the student consultants were on there, uh cell was on there who was not on the council, he would have been a new man. Um Price Williams was on there and was not

01:31:55.500 - 01:32:24.319

on the council. Yeah. Well, would, uh would you like to uh uh talk a little that, that he did? Well, the fifth, the fifth thing through this list of candidates. Uh Well, actually the first thing that the company did of course was to pick, um to

01:32:24.330 - 01:32:45.040

pick a chairman. And uh the uh uh after some, you know, nobody particularly wanted to be chairman of it, there were several people at this first, the meeting when we picked the chairman, 11 or two people who weren't there. Uh It was essentially came down of

01:32:45.049 - 01:33:03.620

having either topazio or Robson to be chairman. And uh I forgot that I think we had a vote on it and the thing came out even. And uh then there was one switch. Exactly. Either that or I forgot exactly. I came about it anyhow, it was

01:33:03.629 - 01:33:20.509

very close but there should be brought to the top, which in retrospect is a very interesting, uh, things might have been quite different than he to pa you and chairman. Uh I know. Why do I say that? Well, I think that the topaz you's attitude, uh,

01:33:20.680 - 01:33:46.649

and bro's attitude and the choice and the procedures, especially in the attitude toward the board, uh, are obviously quite different as everyone knows. Uh, the, uh, Bratton takes a very strong and very independent attitude. Uh I think Topazio is much more conscious of the, uh, how

01:33:46.660 - 01:34:10.490

the board will feel and how the board will react to things and uh is much more prepared to, uh is it to, to let these sensitivities guide and guide him in deciding what he thinks is advising and what is not advisable. Whereas, um broad and feels

01:34:10.500 - 01:34:25.740

more strongly as to what he thinks the faculty ought to stand for and the faculty ought to do, he's aware of how the board feels, but he feels it's important to communicate uh to the board exactly how the faculty feels rather than sort of anticipate how

01:34:25.750 - 01:34:40.910

the board might feel and therefore not communicate some of these things because uh the board would rather, you know, the board might not be pleased to hear this or that. It's a matter of whether you're gonna tell the board the things that they like to hear

01:34:40.919 - 01:35:00.750

or things that are not like. And I think there's a real difference between, uh it's a considerable difference in strategy between uh that would have been followed behind two case. So I think the choice of chairman of the committee, uh which at the time, uh seem

01:35:00.759 - 01:35:17.290

to be fairly insignificant. Uh And nobody felt that strongly as to who should be chairman and the board. The committee as a whole was always on very good terms. And there was never any real differences of opinion on anything but, you know, in, in terms when

01:35:17.299 - 01:35:38.140

it come, when it sort of came to a showdown, I think, uh this difference in attitude was bound to influence the attitude that the committee took. Uh, and the way in which it felt things ought to be communicated to the board, the chair was, well, after

01:35:38.149 - 01:35:56.330

the chairman was elected, then we discuss on how, what would be the best way to proceed. And there was some discussion for a while and said, well, how does, who knows how long goes about picking a president and said, well, lots of schools have gone about

01:35:56.339 - 01:36:16.779

picking a president and a number of people uh knew people who had been, including myself, knew people had been committed at other schools. And uh even found out that I think, uh Mr Cordell had quite a few contacts who had been participating in president picking. And

01:36:16.790 - 01:36:32.140

even, uh we decided actually was uh quite a bit of literature available. And there's even a booklet available which we got and distributed to all the members and sent to the board and how to pick a president. We collected all kinds of articles which were duplicated,

01:36:32.470 - 01:36:47.629

distributed to the members and sent to the, to the, to the board to uh Mr Lovett as chairman of the board as to what other schools have done. Then we discussed now what are the sources from which we could get information of available? After we see,

01:36:47.640 - 01:37:02.899

first, we looked at what are the procedures that one to follow and what have other schools done? And, uh, we, um, then after we had discussed this and passed on whatever we found out to the board and, uh, brought at the time, had a conversation with

01:37:02.910 - 01:37:18.399

Mr Lovett that was before he injured his back. And he told us that, uh, very soon this was in the fall or late fall, early winter in December that we were to get together with the committee on the board, with his committee and we were gonna

01:37:18.470 - 01:37:38.939

somehow thrash out how things would be worked out. Um, there was one time when Mr Simons, uh, I think it was and then Mr Lovett hurt his back and two or three times, I think we were trying to get together and, and it was just fortuitously,

01:37:38.950 - 01:37:53.549

uh, worked out in such a fashion that it, the, the meetings didn't come off. In the meantime, we felt we ought to stop, get, getting something done because I sort of personally felt things were dragging an awful long time since we knew from the middle of

01:37:53.560 - 01:38:10.140

the summer that we would need a new president. Took an awful long time. To get the machinery going. I think some people, probably the board said that so long as Mr Pitzer was here, they did not only be actively engaged in looking for another president. Um,

01:38:10.620 - 01:38:24.520

I, they must have their reason for feeling that way, which I'm not aware of, but, uh, I, I wish we could have sort of started moving right away and there may be some reason why this might, might be awkward in some circumstances. So I don't, I

01:38:24.529 - 01:38:39.819

don't, I don't know about such reasons, but some people must have thought of them. Uh So after we, uh, after we had reviewed the procedures and communicated some of these to the board, we, uh we decided, then we look now what our sources of names and

01:38:39.830 - 01:38:55.740

candidate, what, what groups could we tap? Well, obviously they have schools to have this, to have picked presidents and have one now. So why don't we communicate with some of them? Uh They could give us some our list and say we could contact the faculty equivalent

01:38:55.750 - 01:39:08.040

of those schools and we should pass the word to the board that they might contact the board equivalent and get lists from them, which I think we passed on the word to the board. I didn't, but I think brothers have brought them this. Uh, and they

01:39:08.049 - 01:39:20.700

said, yes, this is a good idea. We ought to do that. And of course, they have contacts with boards, uh, and they can get names that way and we told them what we were doing. Uh at least that's my understanding of it. Uh Then we also

01:39:20.709 - 01:39:44.970

said, of course, then there are uh organizations like the Ford Foundation and the Carnegie Foundation. They know about people who might be available. Uh Then there are uh the faculty in general and also students. We also get suggestions from everybody. Uh The um a number of

01:39:44.979 - 01:40:04.509

people then proceeded on, on, on getting there. Most of the names I think that we had gotten uh were names that were sent directly by rice faculty. And uh usually with a letter and usually from a person who knew the person that was, they were recommending

01:40:04.520 - 01:40:24.299

personally. And this is, I think how we got some 60 odd names. We were just in the process a of getting lists of people I had actually made personal appointment to talk to people at the Ford Foundation that I knew uh to uh to get some

01:40:24.310 - 01:40:37.459

of the list of the people that they would know. And actually, as it turned out in some of these things, there was always a great deal of overlapping and instead of a cool the same people would revolve in. And um this, we were, and then when

01:40:37.470 - 01:40:56.649

we had uh when we were collecting these names and information, we decided to make an individual dossier on each one of them and then just meet and everybody go through these doses and make comments on them some f lathering some derogatory and some just plain no

01:40:56.660 - 01:41:11.779

or hell no. You know, and uh this is uh this is how we went through those 16. Then we started trying to call them out and the five names that we had submitted was actually then sort of picked out and the people that had the most

01:41:11.790 - 01:41:27.370

general, probably sort of picked 10 people that seem to have unanimously favorable comments and then pay that down and say, well, do you think these are the five names we'll submit? And this is these names we submitted that. I think it was just a week before

01:41:27.379 - 01:41:50.770

we were told that the born had appointed a uh and May the presidency. OK. This time that you're going through these 60 names of different ideas among, was there any polarization that it or was everyone? No, there was, there was never uh there was never any

01:41:50.779 - 01:42:08.850

uh uh polarization of attitudes. We, we, you see, because we, we, we didn't really think of ourselves as sitting there making any kind of decisions we were saying as suggesting names and there were differences of opinion as to how good or how bad a particular individual

01:42:08.859 - 01:42:27.049

was. And um the uh but there was never, we were, we were sort of trying to pick them from the top, I think uh for instance, the name that stuck in my mind, of course, because of laser events was Mr Masterson for instance. And, uh, I

01:42:27.060 - 01:42:41.939

think the majority of the committee, but certainly not the unanimous, there was at least one or two people in the committee uh, that were favorable to him, but the majority of them were either lukewarm or unfavorable in sort of a category like a whole number of

01:42:41.950 - 01:42:57.279

other people. In any case. This would not have been anybody that would have been considered with the top half of the group that we were looking at. And uh so, uh but it, it wasn't something that was even discussed because we were not trying to discuss

01:42:57.290 - 01:43:09.370

those in the bottom half or even in the bottom 80% we were only concerned sort of with the top 10%. So we really didn't discuss these others and the ones we had on top, all the ones we agreed on. So there was no really any point

01:43:09.379 - 01:43:26.160

of any kind of polarization. There was never nobody's case that let's say was not in the top 1012 names, uh was given in a sense a any kind of a hearing because it was evident that he was not among the top contenders. And we only wanted

01:43:26.169 - 01:43:40.430

to sort of discuss the top contenders for the time being and we would have prepared, we would have come down the list and then as we had proceeded, uh for the moment, we did not take into account whether somebody was available or was not available since

01:43:40.439 - 01:43:56.959

you never know because uh unless somebody was obviously not available, you know, if uh like somebody left the president of the United States, well, that, that was, unless somebody, uh we had certain categories in mind, which we thought would not be suitable, like uh a retired

01:43:56.970 - 01:44:13.049

admiral that somebody knew 20 years ago. And, you know, we didn't think that would be the kind of president that so, but these were such broad and such obvious categories of rejections and, but we, we didn't, uh we didn't in effect reject anybody as such. We

01:44:13.060 - 01:44:31.790

just picked them and did not really consider the others. Um So, and, and it is uh this is how, how we proceed it. Uh Before we move on a couple of other questions, I'd like to uh rec elaborate on it if I may just interrupt you

01:44:31.799 - 01:44:48.319

before we get on with the chronology. Uh You mentioned the procedure is that uh that you uh you went through and you sent copies of these to the board, you know. Yeah, for, yeah. Uh it was later development. Was there anything in that that should have

01:44:48.330 - 01:45:05.680

been highly um inform? Well, it was the booklets and how to pick the presidents. And uh there was an article written by a member of the Stanford Board on the picking of Pitzer and on what they thought was the right things and the wrong things. And

01:45:05.689 - 01:45:19.750

as a matter of fact, some place around you, somebody I'm sure Franz Brazer must have in his file copies of all these things that we did send to them, which you might not get a hold of as part of the uh the uh if I have,

01:45:19.759 - 01:45:53.899

if I have mine here, I'd be glad to pass it on to you. Mm. Happened. They had uh I would say there's one person that, well, obviously was never discussed in the committee by which a number of rice professors uh wrote a letter which was

01:45:53.910 - 01:46:13.229

sent to me uh a very strong letter in which then I put my support to which was a letter recommending uh Franz bro to be considered as a candidate for president. It wasn't in the committee because he was chairman of the committee. Uh This was a

01:46:13.240 - 01:46:27.049

week or two before the announcement was made and I was still sort of pondering on what would be the best way because it was obviously an awkward thing to have somebody like him. It was signed by a number of the people, especially in the English Department

01:46:27.060 - 01:46:44.890

and mainly people in the humanities. I might say uh it had 56 signature on it. There was a letter which I think uh spelled out some of Professor Bronson's qualifications and what people in the humanity thought to have somebody like him who was actually an engineer

01:46:44.899 - 01:46:57.930

with the great support of the humanities. It sort of expressed my feelings. I put my signature to it and put on uh had my full approval and after the whole thing was sort of over, I actually gave it to Boston. They may have, he may have

01:46:57.939 - 01:47:17.270

thrown it away, he may have kept it as a souvenir. Um The, um the uh then of course, there was considerable support on the inside uh for uh Dean Gordon. Uh there were quite a few people, the feeling of members on the committee was always and

01:47:17.279 - 01:47:32.899

I think this is a sound thing uh that there's a chance somebody might be appointed from the committee, but in fairness to them in fairness to the university, we certainly have to look over what is available on the outside. And uh because uh nobody would want

01:47:32.910 - 01:47:46.259

to feel that they were appointed without everybody uh having looked around. I mean, if you are appointed to a position after the people have really can with the field and they have done so and then you get appointed, then you feel well, they really must want

01:47:46.270 - 01:48:00.729

you if they just appoint you and never look around, then you get the feeling well, they were too lazy to do their job. And so we were holding in in the back of our minds. A number of people, I think two most prominently mentioned uh always

01:48:00.740 - 01:48:20.080

brought some and Gordon and on the Humanity side, Sony proton uh had at that time, the largest support. Um he having been a Dean of Engineering, there were obviously a number of engineering and science departments that uh uh anybody, any, anytime you've been a dean, you,

01:48:20.089 - 01:48:33.689

you have uh turned down a number of people and step on toes and there were a number of people after they had reservations. But in the humanities, they had always, uh uh they never had him as a dean and they, they knew what he would mean

01:48:33.990 - 01:48:47.870

in terms of his conception of the university. And I think, uh so this, this was uh this was the reason why we sort of kept these things in the background. We uh because these, these are easy cases to decide once we have looked elsewhere because everybody

01:48:47.879 - 01:49:16.100

knew that and knew that he said his letter was signed about, I know probably something like that. Um Was there any discussion on any of these uh pamphlets that uh related to the problem? Oh, yeah. Yes, I discussed the advisability of faculty participation, the techniques of

01:49:16.390 - 01:49:36.750

faculty participation. I discussed the advisability of student participation. This was also, this was discussed in all these things um on the how they should participate to what extent they should participate. And most of them were strongly in favor of all kinds of participation. Did you ever

01:49:36.759 - 01:49:55.120

have any think one way or the other that uh that these things were uh seriously read by members of the board? No, I uh had no reason to uh to think of it one way or the other uh Since I did not know what the personal

01:49:55.129 - 01:50:16.629

reading habits of the members of the board are and I know they're busy people and, uh, this is, uh, and also they're usually people who have, uh, you know, some confidence in doing things the way they think of doing that. I, I don't know it, I

01:50:16.640 - 01:50:31.399

have no reason to suspect the, to make any judgment one way or the other. We obviously wanted them the reason because that's why we send them to them and uh whether they read them or didn't read them, I have no idea. Uh At this time to

01:50:31.410 - 01:50:58.549

do was, was the communication. Um And your impression mostly through blood, were there contacts with other members of board on an informal way about this presidential scenario? To my knowledge, the only contact we had was between Bronson and Lovett. And there were very few, I know

01:50:58.620 - 01:51:15.370

all these things mail uh to the individual areas of, I'm not sure whether all these things were made to my, as I recollect, they probably were ma mail only to, to love, I don't think they were mailed to other people. I'm not sure. But, but it

01:51:15.379 - 01:51:37.370

would it be correct that your impression is that all the communications between the faculty advisory to the board, between these two men? Right. Right. Right. This is, you see, this is because those meetings that I have to have that were the main means of communicating and

01:51:37.379 - 01:51:54.609

having an exchange of ideas. And even sort of agreeing on the basic uh uh role of, uh, us and them, these meetings never came about. We had a president was appointed before we ever agreed on what exactly what we were supposed to do. So, we just

01:51:54.620 - 01:52:13.430

went on the assumption we ought to make a success. And, uh, we just started making suggestions. Have you ever had a, a patient to get acquainted with in a very, uh personal way? Well, yes. Uh before then, of course, I had gotten the point of uh

01:52:13.439 - 01:52:30.069

Mr Simons because he is the chairman of the our parliamental advisory committee. Uh We are one of the departments that has an advisory committee. Most of the advisory committee have the chairman who's a member of the board. Mr Simon happens to be the chairman of our

01:52:30.080 - 01:52:54.200

advisory committee and um the uh uh so we had, I've had the, to the extent of having a, a couple of lunch and a couple of dinners and a couple of meetings with Mr Simon before any of this had come up. Were you aware of any

01:52:54.209 - 01:53:15.049

diff serious differences? One? No, we had never discussed that we had never discussed it. We uh the main thing we had been, I had been discussing with Mr Simons had to do with uh development of economic department and the future school of management and things like

01:53:15.060 - 01:53:40.910

that. And he was engaged in the process of going out raising money for us. And uh we've only talking about those things. We're not talking about anything until close that the situation has developed some of the masses. And I had the, I had, had only, uh,

01:53:42.049 - 01:53:58.689

or had met Mr lovers. Of course, once or twice, I had been with the island, but I cannot say that I have been personally acquainted with them, not to the extent of being aware of the No, no, no, because they're sort of, uh you know, the

01:53:58.700 - 01:54:17.450

kind of conversations I had with them at receptions and things like that when we talk about football and the weather and at the university on, in sort of very general terms where we had never discussed uh the presidential appointments to my knowledge. Uh um suddenly thinking

01:54:17.459 - 01:54:33.850

that they were thinking in the same terms, we were uh in fact, all alone, I guess they still do in terms of the kind of uh what we wanted out of a president. Now, the kind of person that might fulfill that role we might have differences

01:54:33.859 - 01:54:52.270

of opinion on. But I think the kind of person that we really wanted to, my knowledge, there was never any uh difference of opinion. I think the aspirations were as high as ours as far as I know. I have no, you know, I can go around

01:54:52.279 - 01:55:15.339

and making guesses that they may have uh thought this or that, but no real, no real notion that uh that there was any difference of opinion. I don't know if there was a difference of opinion on what we were looking for it. I think there was,

01:55:15.879 - 01:55:42.589

there were obvious differences of opinion on whether the man that was chosen, oh, was consistent with what we were looking for. And also, of course, the procedure. Well, a bit startling. Yeah. Getting, using this. How did I get first news of it? Uh, I ain't got

01:55:42.600 - 01:56:04.950

news of it. The, I was called by Mr Robson saying that we were gonna have a meeting but a very important meeting, uh, with members of the board and he says, I cannot tell you what we're going to discuss. And, and then I said, well, I'll,

01:56:05.000 - 01:56:22.479

I'll make one guess. He, he just let me guess. He didn't. And I said, I said, we didn't discuss this and the meeting was to be the next day. Uh, and I think that was on Thursday. He called me Wednesday. Then I think we have the

01:56:22.490 - 01:56:41.410

meeting on Thursday afternoon. And by then I, I knew that somebody was on the point of being considered or what had been considered. And, uh, at Wednesday then I found out that person indeed had been appointed. Will you, will you get fast? No, I didn't get

01:56:41.419 - 01:57:07.839

any particular name. I just knew that somebody had been appointed. And, uh, then at the meeting, I found that I was not, was the nature of the quality. Hello? Yes, I would say it it's, uh, uh, he said to me that it is very important that

01:57:07.850 - 01:57:28.600

you be there. Um, and, uh, I mean, from, from the fact from the fact that I figured that some very important development had taken place, uh, it could have been that it was somebody I might have been very happy about, uh, the, the, uh, I believe

01:57:28.620 - 01:57:47.600

about the person, but I would say I would have been a bit upset about the procedure. But, um, I think, uh, I don't know what I should say. He con conveyed alarms and suddenly made it sound as if it was that a serious decision was about

01:57:47.609 - 01:58:14.359

to be made or had been made in the, the Nova as a member of the committee, did you, did you interpret his reaction question is what I, I suppose now that it's sort of, um, you know, difficult to, to recollect an advance, you know, you know,

01:58:14.370 - 01:58:33.839

what I, what I, what was then or the next day, uh, suddenly there, there was, I couldn't tell at the time whether it was dismay over the procedure or this may over the appointment. I think there was some of the development in there and uh significant

01:58:33.850 - 01:59:17.580

things have been happening that we are not, but we normally slip in. The prize of them had nothing we should have been. But we thought, we thought our robot consulting capacity and especially I called them up and I asked them, how are they going. They

01:59:17.589 - 01:59:33.339

said, well, uh the way they explained to me, very personal friend of mine who was on the family said, well, we, uh they in affected most of the light work and that they presented various names to the board and the board essentially said yes or no

01:59:33.350 - 01:59:46.720

to various suggestions. And that when they came up with somebody, they really want the board agreed that they, it was sort of all in the hands of the committee. I talked to another friend of mine who was a dean at the University of Kentucky where they

01:59:46.729 - 02:00:05.419

had just picked the president. And he, he explained to me that it is in the the bylaws of the university in the state charter by head of the university that the faculty committee uh must most the proof of the president has been taken that most of

02:00:05.430 - 02:00:19.930

the work actually was done by members of the faculty and the administration and the board. But then in both of these cases, the board sort of gave the assent, they let the, the faculty and administration do the work and they said yes or no to various

02:00:19.939 - 02:00:35.089

candidates. And of course, they, they had some input but most of the work and most of the several of the top schools in the country that I talked to, uh they had looked upon this as this being uh that the board's authority, uh the board has

02:00:35.100 - 02:00:50.689

final authority and final say, but there really it should be a man that uh um if something that has to be somebody who works primarily with the faculty, and then if the faculty can live with them, and the faculty feels this is the man who will

02:00:50.700 - 02:01:04.879

bring credit to the university and the board then feels that he can indeed do the job and that they can work with him. Uh That's the decision was made. So we, I obviously uh was had this as a kind of a frame of reference and that

02:01:04.890 - 02:01:20.479

this was done in, in some of the better schools in the country. And uh that if you, so that had gotten from this, the idea if you don't have other contempt of the faculty, if you respect the faculty and if you think they're competent and have

02:01:20.490 - 02:01:35.919

decent judgment, uh that this is the way it is done in these places. So when the thing was, so when we, this is what I thought we were doing and obviously it turned out rather differently. It was obviously a shock. I must frankly confess that if,

02:01:35.930 - 02:01:56.660

um, um I would have been disappointed if they had picked Jesus Christ. But, uh I think, uh let's say this is technically idealized uh um man for, you know, somebody with no fault. But uh I guess I would have said, well, it, it, it's too bad.

02:01:56.669 - 02:02:17.209

I wish we would have picked them. But this is a great man and, and that's it. But uh when the procedure was uh oo of such a fashion that was completely inconsistent with uh what a self respect. Well, well, let's say what the top universities are

02:02:17.220 - 02:02:34.759

doing, what has become established in the leading universities to be the procedure that is followed. And this is the kind of university we think we want to be. Uh but this was contrary to that and obviously was uh uh rather a shock. Uh uh I sort

02:02:34.770 - 02:02:48.939

of looked at the faculty and the subsequent discussions with members of the board, uh they looked at it from a quite different point of view. They are not faculty members of growth and they looked upon that this is their responsibility. And uh uh what they're doing

02:02:48.950 - 02:03:05.540

is fulfilling their responsibility and picking somebody. And they're quite pleased to have uh the advice of the faculty. If they think it is, they need it. Uh And uh which means also if they don't think they need it, they, they want to ask for it or

02:03:06.049 - 02:03:21.770

uh in, in a very, in, in, in, in a very sincere and straightforward way. Uh It's just that this way of looking at the fantasy, I guess is what was a bit dismaying. And uh once the committee has been appointed and something as sensitive as this,

02:03:22.180 - 02:03:41.419

the way I uh then I think it, it, it becomes extremely sense, you know, to use it in the N word, not, not to pay attention to it. And, uh, the, uh, it is very difficult not to have the feeling that one has been held in

02:03:41.430 - 02:04:02.379

contempt, uh, or, or being seen with contempt. Uh, if one is put in a position, there's a significant of that. And then so, well, you've been a good boy but, uh, we don't need you anymore. Uh So I would say personally, uh, that I, I don't,

02:04:02.390 - 02:04:30.049

uh, you know, I, I can, uh, if it had been a, a man that I would have been really excited about, uh, I'm not the one who wants to stick that much on procedure and, and, uh, it would have been different. Yeah, the time you, uh,

02:04:30.060 - 02:04:48.979

you went to the meeting was, uh, do you recall what your attitude working? Yeah, I sort of look forward to it. I made the time to see if I was gonna get raped. Uh huh. Uh, that, that's about, that's about the feeling I had because I

02:04:48.990 - 02:05:02.870

had strong feelings the decision had been made, the more I thought about it and the more I tell him about how this is, uh, when the long, when I thought about the universities were doing around the country and the way we have been treated it, that's

02:05:02.879 - 02:05:22.290

about the kind of feeling I had. And in fact, I expressed these exact terms to one of the committee members as we entered the room. Ok. What's your reaction? Um, and he looked rather aghast because he didn't know what was going on and I, I didn't

02:05:22.299 - 02:05:45.859

know either. I just guessed. I told him, I think we're gonna get raped and, uh, uh, uh, you called it? Mhm. I think that told her to cut out. No, he was not anticipating this. Yeah, I think he had called me. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, he

02:05:45.870 - 02:06:06.779

didn't tell us. Well, well, he knew of course but he didn't tell us. Can you describe what happened at the meeting? What your reaction? Well, uh Mr Allen uh uh came and, and um told us that they had the med and that they had the, they

02:06:06.790 - 02:06:23.279

had looked at the names that we had submitted and the, the, the name of uh Doctor Masterson had been proposed and that has discussed this uh that there was unanimous, I think that there was unanimous support for him that they felt as a man that they

02:06:23.290 - 02:06:40.129

knew and uh that they think would do an excellent job for Rice University and that they felt uh would have the support of the faculty. I felt he was a colleague of ours that we knew him, that we liked him. And that uh I mean, this

02:06:40.140 - 02:07:05.279

is roughly how I recall it. And um then the Mr he already knew, having talked to Mr Ronson, what likely our reaction might be. Uh The first reaction came from David Salzberg who uh said something to the effect that he was just aghast amazed. Oh, we

02:07:05.290 - 02:07:25.649

have, but they been pointed in the whole thing. And, uh, I, um, I guess I was next to spoke and I thought, I told him, I thought that there would be a, a very unpleasant reaction from the faculty that I personally was quite unhappy. Uh, but

02:07:25.660 - 02:07:44.589

that wasn't really important that I felt that the faculty as a whole, uh, and a whole n a number of people specifically, uh, would be tremendously upset both by the procedure and by the man. And uh then, bro, and so I think the three of us

02:07:44.600 - 02:08:03.250

were the ones who were the most uh outspoken in our feelings, negative feelings on the matter. Uh Some of the other people weren't quite so for all the students. And so we had sort of a long uh back and forth, Mr Allen at that time at

02:08:03.609 - 02:08:24.729

that time was feeling that uh uh this was indeed a very bad way to pick the man and that they should have really consulted with us. But he used the term in the rush of events uh the uh you know, uh you can, once you have

02:08:24.740 - 02:08:38.609

talked to them, you can postpone the things and, and all that. And uh in effect, he was making, he was apologizing for the fact that they had not consulted with us. And um he also giving description that Hilda was a good man and he used the

02:08:38.620 - 02:08:57.209

term uh one of his qualifications was especially he what they thought was important that he had good connections in the community. Uh that he also was in a time of student unrest. It was important to have a man to have a strong hand on the teller

02:08:57.220 - 02:09:16.399

that we should not postpone getting a present any longer than was absolutely necessary. And uh this phrase, a hand on the teller was quickly picked up by the student and a strong hand on the teller. And, and um we, we thought it was, it was a,

02:09:16.620 - 02:09:33.959

I would say a very frank meeting with Mr Teague who did not speak so much. Uh, and, uh with uh Mr Allen, um we felt then that we should make some sort of announcement to the faculty as a whole. And Franz Bronson, uh we then discussed,

02:09:33.970 - 02:09:52.089

uh we said that they should be there or at least that Allen should be there to present this news to the faculty. Um And uh he then of course, agreed very gracious as the was most gracious throughout all this. Uh He was upset that we were

02:09:52.100 - 02:10:09.279

upset, he was quite unhappy that we were unhappy. Uh It was, I think a very unpleasant experience for him. And, uh I think we were all civilized and polite people that we didn't try to make it any unpleasant than it had to be. But we're also

02:10:09.410 - 02:10:26.049

serious about the matter that we felt, we ought to tell them exactly how we felt and how we think our colleagues would feel. And, uh, so on the, on the whole, it was one of these inevitably unpleasant things. Uh, the hands of all the students were

02:10:26.060 - 02:10:51.319

quite outspoken and, and so, uh, it was then decided to have the meeting first. We were gonna have the meeting on the Saturday morning. But doctor Bros said that he could not be the meeting. We had a Saturday morning because we had some money. Then we

02:10:51.330 - 02:11:02.279

said, well, maybe we ought to have it Friday. Then Debra said that, well, if we have it Friday, he couldn't be there because he was gonna be out of town. And then I think we had left that, that was to be Saturday. But then the news

02:11:02.290 - 02:11:17.779

broke in over the wires and never fell. Then on Friday that we should have the meeting that very day because the thing was getting to be public and we should have it. So, um it wasn't, I think a number of people have Sonido Pai was absent

02:11:17.790 - 02:11:32.430

at the meeting, which a number of our colleagues. So they had interpreted that he didn't want to be around on the uh when there was the expression of discontent among the faculty. Uh And therefore he was out of town on that Friday. Uh He, he picked

02:11:32.439 - 02:11:44.640

the time to be out of town and that, that's quite incorrect because he wanted the meeting to be on Saturday because he was gonna be out of town on Friday and it had been agreed that he would be, it would be on Saturday. It was only

02:11:44.649 - 02:12:04.919

picked to be on Friday when it was quite clear the news had broken and, and, uh, the, uh, COVID, it was, uh, it had, it had gotten out of the town, the news that a reporter from the Chronicle called me on Friday morning and said to

02:12:04.930 - 02:12:20.250

me that, uh, we have a newswire from the coming out of Chattanooga saying that and Doctor Matheson has accepted the presidency of R and what I thought of that. And I thought, well, that was interesting news in Chattanooga. And I say, come on Dumb Blake Coy.

02:12:20.750 - 02:12:37.830

Uh you know, and we know that, you know, I said, well, I can't comment and, you know, then when the fish and said, look, I can't come, I guess I saw a kind of upset and he said, why do you sound upset? And, uh, the, uh

02:12:37.839 - 02:12:51.859

I said, well, after I sound upset and they said, well, now we know, and, uh, you know, and, and uh you say more than no common, more than one and then, uh you know, uh put the bed by then, of course, it was all about then

02:12:54.669 - 02:13:17.560

because people were already coming around and, and talking and, and, you know, uh regarding this event. No, no, I think the board told us the reason that Mr Allen explained to us, the reason why they did and that it was sorry, they did it that way.

02:13:17.830 - 02:13:31.290

We told them how we felt about it and how we think the faculty will react to it. And the decision has been made to announce it to the faculty. And uh that was all that was uh the side of that. Did you already on the impression

02:13:31.299 - 02:13:54.819

at that? Not only was the Mr Allen that said about, he himself had nothing to uh no, I don't know whether he had, didn't have anything to do with it. He never made excuses for himself. He never said that he had nothing to do with it

02:13:54.830 - 02:14:13.169

and that it wasn't his, uh, I don't think that would be Mr Allen's uh, character. I don't know, I didn't really know him that well, but, uh, he wasn't, uh, making any excuses, uh for himself. He was representing the board and it was his decision as

02:14:13.180 - 02:14:36.569

a member of the board's decision of which he was a member. Uh, but this was, was the sign of the phone. Mm. Well, then you were calling, ok, Friday morning prior to the, well, Friday morning, various faculty members were, were, uh, finding out about it indirectly

02:14:36.580 - 02:14:57.049

and how news looks out. I don't know. And several of them came to my office. Um, and, um, I remember one in particular, uh, who was hopping mad because of the procedure. He didn't know yet who was, and I could just see how he would react

02:14:57.069 - 02:15:19.410

on the once you heard about the name because he was only mad over the procedure. Uh, well, Alan Grove. Yeah. And, uh, then of course he was, uh, really unhappy. He heard about the, and then there was this very hastily drawn up, uh, uh, p petition

02:15:19.640 - 02:15:38.109

asking the board to reconsider and expressing, oh, I forgot exactly what the petition said. That's where he hates to be drawn in and just sort of very hastily, anybody that catches catch can of about 60 people find it in about a half an hour. I saw

02:15:45.080 - 02:16:26.500

the other conversations that day that set up. No. Uh, it, it was, I, um, and that on that, on that Friday, I, I don't recall anything. I mean, people sort of began sort of the really sort of thing didn't develop until after the faculty meeting because,

02:16:26.509 - 02:16:42.120

uh, since I knew what was going on and what sort of, uh, hell not to talk about it and until it was made public, I tried to stay out of things and, and, uh, all the head that are broke and, uh, people, no, it's, it's, uh,

02:16:42.129 - 02:17:10.799

it's a lot of these things can happen. What do you call about the, uh, do that? All right. Well, I think the, the, uh, the most, the most thing that impressed me most at the fact of the meeting was, of course, the, uh, the sort of

02:17:10.809 - 02:17:27.419

a sense of determination and unity on the part of the faculty I have a one hate confrontation, you know, and, uh I think the fact that on the whole hate confrontation, but I think at, at that point there was a, I have never seen the right

02:17:27.429 - 02:17:44.070

faculty and I didn't expect that the right faculty would sort of react with that much unity and would have that strong a sense of what they consider to be proper and what they would reject as being improper. And the number of people like Jack Ward, for

02:17:44.080 - 02:18:04.389

instance, who uh displayed tremendous courage on an issue that was completely a matter of ideal and well, he, he was willing to put his son his right career on the line, which maybe he did uh and spoke, uh you know, very eloquently. And of course, there

02:18:04.400 - 02:18:22.110

are a few faculty people who will always come up into, uh uh you know, sort of say things and, uh uh you know, sort of go against the general stream. But in this case, it, it was the people who sort of had looked upon as being

02:18:22.910 - 02:18:41.949

so responsible uh that or, you know, in the past had not taken things who at the confrontation time. And in fact, some other people who you might have expected to, instead of trying to want to stay in the background because they knew they were identified as

02:18:41.958 - 02:18:57.269

people are always against this other and they didn't want to speak out because they felt that that might do harm to the cause. So it was a tremendous sense of humor. The thing that, of course, um I, I guess the thing is that surprised me most

02:18:57.280 - 02:19:08.980

and, and II I sort of left the greatest impression. I mean, when we left the meeting and the students were all standing there and we were applauding and I think they were essentially applauding that they felt we stood up for what we believed in. They didn't

02:19:08.990 - 02:19:23.070

care what it was we believed in, I don't think because they didn't know master and, but they felt if we, if we felt that strongly about an issue, we ought to stand up for it and having stood up for it, uh, they felt that this, uh,

02:19:23.120 - 02:19:41.968

students are basically idealistic and, and, uh, uh they felt this was a very important thing and, and, uh, so they, they applauded and they sort of had a give me a strange sense, uh, of, uh, I don't know what, what it was, it was because the

02:19:41.978 - 02:20:01.889

right students are typically very critical of the faculty and are not very generous. Uh, and, and so they had this kind of response and a sort of a sense of solidarity of the academic community. It was in, in a sense probably in, well, this is comforting

02:20:01.900 - 02:20:20.330

as, as perhaps the, because it had never happened before. And, uh, I must say throughout all the day, I always felt extremely uneasy mainly because I, uh I hate this kind of thing. I just hate it with a passion. And, uh, what I hate most about

02:20:20.339 - 02:20:33.129

is that it sort of tend to push people in the position that they didn't really want to take and, uh, that some other people who are, who are very good friends of mine who are very passive. Let's say I don't want that they're cowards. I just

02:20:33.139 - 02:20:50.480

said they're very passive and refused to get involved and were treated as cowards and as lacking any anything. And that I hated most of all because I know they are good people and, and uh I hated to see them treated by their colleagues, not then because

02:20:50.490 - 02:21:09.250

they, they, they just didn't want to take a partici participate in. But I think that for the majority of that have said, well, here's an issue where uh it was very important that the, the faculty make known how they feel about it. No worries. Uh That's

02:21:09.259 - 02:21:26.620

true. That's true. You see, so if you weren't for, you were a traitor and I, I hate any situation where one cannot be neutral. Uh Even if myself, I had not chosen to be neutral because I had very strong feelings. Um uh as to what I

02:21:26.629 - 02:21:45.809

thought should have been the way it should have been known. And also about the, but I thought I, while Masterson was here, he was always kind to me. Uh he never broke a promise with me personally, I served on a number of committees that he had

02:21:45.820 - 02:22:06.150

picked me to serve on and I had never any personal reasons to complain. On the other hand, I knew of many colleagues that had had quite different experiences that I was never in any administrative position. All the colleagues I know had difficulties with primary in administrative

02:22:06.160 - 02:22:24.009

positions. I know he had taken a number of positions that I could have never Condoned and and certain types of procedures in the university positions, taken on promotions, positions taken on raises for people which I consider petty and vindictive. And I think uh my feeling was

02:22:24.019 - 02:22:37.299

to have a president in that kind of capacity would be a disaster. I felt that personally, I might have made out quite well with him because he had always liked me and always treated me nicely. And, and uh he was inclined to sort of have people

02:22:37.309 - 02:22:54.219

that he trusted around him and that I disliked in itself because I think it should be an open forum and that any time, especially the higher people who is surrounded by a group of people that uh you sort of personally trust. Um The uh then, then

02:22:54.230 - 02:23:10.250

it is always very dangerous. Uh This is a very dangerous precedent so that even though in a sense, I was a beneficiary of his trust, I thought the whole idea of running a show that way was bad. And uh I was personally very chagrined that master

02:23:10.509 - 02:23:28.009

ever got into this because I never had any reason personally to dislike him. But I, I was, uh, felt very strongly that he should not be president and, and, uh, that the, that, well, I wouldn't mind having him at all as a colleague as a matter

02:23:28.019 - 02:23:49.620

of fact. Uh, and, uh, I was master of doing college for one time. And, well, he was in consideration, I think to him, the, uh, the question is that this was their responsibility. They had fulfilled their legal responsibility and that was it. And they were gonna

02:23:49.629 - 02:24:03.889

stick by that. And so, um, anyhow, we, we, I told him how I felt the faculty fell. I, at the time, didn't think uh the faculty was feeling quite as strong as it turned out to feel. And I obviously was sort of hardly wishful thinking on

02:24:03.900 - 02:24:23.549

my part because I just sort of hated to see any kind of confrontation and, and, um, uh I had sort of hope that, you know, well, if that's it, that's it. Uh, uh that's where we are and we'll see what happens next. But when I came

02:24:23.559 - 02:24:42.179

back, I must say, for, until Tuesday, my phone rang practically continuously and I had a very good feeling as to how the faculty was progressively getting more work done. And then some people had all kinds of extreme things in mind and, and, uh you know, uh

02:24:42.190 - 02:24:56.059

no, nothing ever very specific but uh all the suggestions that uh no matter what happens, we're not gonna accept them. I spend most of my time saying I'm gonna come on, you know, but this is not, this is not the end of the world or something

02:24:56.070 - 02:25:14.849

like that. Uh, uh So I wasn't happy with the situation. I said, hey, so that with some people seemingly so that worked out, then of course, suddenly there were meetings all over the place and, and uh, uh, once people found, found out how strongly the feelings

02:25:14.860 - 02:25:30.080

were then, so from Sunday there was no, no going back and, uh, Dean Gordon became quite concerned as to what was going on and to what he ought to do, uh, in order to keep things from, from getting out of hand, uh, because we have a

02:25:30.089 - 02:25:46.889

substantial contingent of young faculty members who, you know, uh, you know, I don't know, some, some of them I felt were real hotheads and Dean Gordon wants to know exactly what the situation was and felt it was his job to keep in close contact. He called

02:25:46.900 - 02:26:02.059

the meeting Sunday afternoon at which I was present, which we thought, you know, what, what can we do to sort of keep the, the lid on things and, and keep, uh, the university from being shut down and keep from building, being occupied with all, uh, Firebombs

02:26:02.070 - 02:26:18.160

being drawn and keep things in an order we discuss and keep the channels of them open. And it was felt then, uh, at the meeting, the meeting urged Dean Gordon at that time to take a poll of the faculty so we can report precisely because the,

02:26:18.179 - 02:26:33.830

the board still feel felt very strongly. There's just a few people who are unhappy with the appointment and a few people who worried about the procedure, uh, for my numerous contacts and phone calls, I knew there was a large number and after we got to know

02:26:33.839 - 02:26:49.990

exactly how people do feel about it. And, uh, so, well, the only thing we can do then is is to have a, have a poll and it should be a secret poll. So everybody should be completely free to, uh express his opinion. Well, we suggested that

02:26:50.000 - 02:27:04.519

to Dean Gordon and he was willing to ask the department chairman to have that kind of a poll and that's what was taken. Of course, on Monday, the results were never made public. Uh I think quite a few people know roughly what they want. And, uh,

02:27:04.530 - 02:27:18.969

of course, this is one thing when it was communicated to Masterson and I think it would have been very unfair to Masterson not to tell him how the, how the faculty felt because I think this was the main uh factor in his decision to withdraw when

02:27:18.980 - 02:27:42.490

he knew exactly what the situation was, I think. Um, and I personally think that things worked out really, uh, as well as could have been expected under the circumstances. 30 co in this four day week. And I think that, that, uh, the only way, all the

02:27:42.540 - 02:28:06.610

people. Yeah. Yeah. I also thought he would resign. I, uh, by Sunday noon, having talked to quite a few people, I, I predicted that Mason would resign. Uh, not that he really necessarily would want to but I sort of was trying to miss out on what

02:28:06.620 - 02:28:23.500

it would take for a man to want to confront this kind of a situation. And nowadays, and I said it looked so hopeless and Masterson is a very intelligent person and have some sense of what can be done and cannot be done and, and, and what

02:28:23.509 - 02:28:39.730

hopeless situations are. And then I had that feeling that only the most foolhardy person would want to step into this. And that's one of the things he would come once he began to realize what would be the situation. And that uh either I, I felt then

02:28:39.740 - 02:28:55.679

there were two things that would happen. Either things would sort of um die down very quickly. And, and uh but I didn't think too much that I didn't, I wasn't, didn't think this was likely to happen because there were so many people who had such strong

02:28:55.690 - 02:29:14.320

feelings about it. You see, and uh so many people who were willing to resign on the spot and you were willing to leave, uh and, and uh or or not come back if, if they were on leave, sometimes if this were the case that, uh, and

02:29:14.330 - 02:29:28.549

some others who said I will never resign so long as they do and I'll stay here and then I'll do that, you know, uh, uh, which I, which I found even more out of them. Uh, it ma mainly because II, I am not the, I'm by

02:29:28.559 - 02:29:49.639

nature, not the fighting type. Um, so I figured under the circumstances, uh, if this keeps up, if this, if these feelings, uh, and they seem to be getting more widespread by the minute, because many of the, many of the uh so the sordid stories uh real

02:29:49.650 - 02:30:06.559

or invented came to the fore and they were spreading very rapidly and it just was inconceivable to me. And some of the things that I think will never be hope will never be repeated because the basis of facts are very flimsy and, and uh uh I

02:30:06.570 - 02:30:24.150

could only see that if, if you should come by the time summer comes around, there will be so much of an uproar and these stories will have multiplied and grown by then so badly that it would be an absolutely impossible situation. I know a few of

02:30:24.160 - 02:30:44.839

them that I knew to be true because I knew the people personally who had unpleasant experiences, uh mainly sort of involving bad judgment on the part of medicine and sometimes just awkward procedures, what I would call it. So, so, um and, and uh not all of

02:30:44.849 - 02:31:02.089

it one sided, sometimes the people you had to deal with were not very cooper either. Uh, but, uh, I think these, these stories is the, the things that I was getting out of hand and I just couldn't imagine that if he, as a number of his

02:31:02.099 - 02:31:16.589

friends, uh, Cordell friends was a very good friend of mine and they were quite prepared to explain to him. I talked to Cordell on the phone and passed on to him but I knew what was going on and that uh how unfortunate all this was and

02:31:16.599 - 02:31:30.549

how unfair to ma and you know, that he sort of got drawn into this in a manner with these stories and now spreading and, and some of them found to get invented and explode and, and expanded whether through or not. And that how terrible a man

02:31:30.559 - 02:31:46.120

would have to step into this. And uh cor who had always felt was always strongly in favor of master. Uh I felt, you know, it would be impossible for him to take over the presidency or something of the university in this situation because it is difficult

02:31:46.129 - 02:32:13.450

when you have everybody on your side nowadays and to get into this, of course, it isn't very and difficult. So um this is uh I, I think it's uh one of those things where different my feeling was that the way the faculty looked at the university

02:32:13.459 - 02:32:30.639

and the way the board looked at the university, they were entirely two different worlds. And uh, what they thought was the right thing to do with the right procedure and what the faculty thought was an acceptable thing just didn't meet. And that, uh, I also felt

02:32:30.650 - 02:32:56.599

the casual contact between the factory and the board was disastrous, especially under these kind of circumstances. And that the, I, I would say, II, I still rather unhappy about the whole situation that some people who basically, it's, it's a situation where it's a kind of a

02:32:56.610 - 02:33:12.990

game where either both sides lose or both sides win. It's not, it's not a management labor situation where if you have lower wages, you may have higher profits. It's not bad at all. It's either we both win or we both lose and having so much in

02:33:13.000 - 02:33:27.730

common. And really basically the same ideas, I think we may look at them differently because we have the same ideas that have gotten in a situation. We have such a bad, uh such a, a different way of looking at it on such a crucial issue to

02:33:27.740 - 02:33:46.469

me, sort of reflected um a very serious situation which I think still exists. And uh the only man that can solve a situation like this is the kind of president that can really represent the faculty of the board and the board of the faculty that is

02:33:46.480 - 02:34:04.200

a really intermediary. Anybody who becomes president, is the board's boy or is the faculty's boy that's gonna be disastrous because he's really got to be the link in the middle and he's gonna shield one from the other very literally and pits of it. And uh so

02:34:04.209 - 02:34:17.440

uh the uh he better not tell all the board what the faculty is talking about and better not tell the faculty everything the board is talking about because I think the the there are two different worlds, they do overlap and then they have goals in common

02:34:17.450 - 02:34:34.860

and they have certain things in common, but they also have a different, a different view of the world, a different conceptions of their role, a different conception of the university. Uh And I think uh this can be successfully bridged by uh a president. And after going

02:34:34.870 - 02:34:49.910

through all this experience, my main qualification for a president is that the kind of leaders of the Ken Bridge did and, and uh a man who is sensible, has his feet on the ground, understands how to deal with the fact that he knows how to deal

02:34:49.919 - 02:35:05.530

with the board can interpret the anxieties and aspirations of one to the and the concerns of one to the other, knows what to tell him and knows what not, what not to tell him. Uh This is, this is a crucial, this is not gonna be easy

02:35:05.540 - 02:35:19.830

men to find. I don't think it's an impossible impact. I think that quite a few people around including some former right graduates would probably could fulfill this kind of a role uh in this day. And age and maybe it is wrong to suspect that the thing

02:35:19.839 - 02:35:38.929

that, uh, it would have to be an outstanding, you know, it's all over the world's reputation. Maybe this is maybe right, the right faculty can establish its own reputation doesn't mean that much on the president than it has in the past. And there's now a more

02:35:38.940 - 02:35:55.089

solidly established and a larger faculty, it has gone through a major period of growth. On the other hand, it obviously helps to have a man on top who is himself uh blaze the trail here or there. And uh but from in the day to day operations,

02:35:55.099 - 02:36:15.980

uh it becomes very important that uh he can tie the board and the and the factory together and keep a hand in the community. I know uh quite a few people on the board feel that this is what Pitza did not fulfill his role completely because

02:36:15.990 - 02:36:41.440

Mr Krois has been around has essentially carried that law for him and uh uh maybe a man can do everything. And, but I think in order of significance, the con the relation of the conduct between board and faculty is the most important. Uh and very close

02:36:41.450 - 02:36:57.459

to this is also the student. Um the uh uh and the next to that is across the community. And at the end, the alumni, I think they're all important. I sort of include the alumni. I think these are all important parts that have to be kept

02:36:57.469 - 02:37:11.959

together and that the present ideally should be very good at dealing with. So I think that's sort of an order of priority if you choose somebody who gets along fine with the community and the board and the alumni, but uh has no real connections and real

02:37:11.969 - 02:37:26.559

understanding of the sense and aspiration of the pack against students. I think it'd be a disaster and it would be a disaster if a man who only knows how the pack against students feel can somehow feel how, what makes the boards of about uh what the

02:37:26.570 - 02:37:45.179

role of the community and the, the element should be. I think that's also that. So it is uh because nobody is completely deficient in all of these. Uh nobody is completely perfect in all. And one has to sort of pick and choose one can trade off

02:37:45.190 - 02:37:58.339

one for the other but not to not completely uh a president who does not have the trust of the faculty or the trust of the board is out no matter what he does with the alumni and students, a president does not have to trust that the

02:37:58.349 - 02:38:12.429

alumni may do quite well. I, you know, I it would be sort of a hindrance on occasion but that trust he could, he could earn a lot more. He would, it, it is something that's not as immediate, the more immediate the contact, the more important it

02:38:12.440 - 02:38:28.669

is and the more the more frequent, the contact, uh, and, uh, he would have more, I think anybody be appointed, the alumni in the community are willing to give him a chance. Um, I think with me about the fact that it would not have given him

02:38:28.679 - 02:38:50.750

a chance because they had made up their mind, they knew him. I thought they, I guess they don't, they do know that. And, uh, so that this is because these, these are all my opinions and, and incidentally on, on, on, on this sort of thing, how

02:38:50.759 - 02:39:05.629

much of this is public record or what, what is all of these things? None of, none of this public record or will it ever be? It will never be uh all of the archives tapes and the transcripts are closed until October 1st 1974. Uh The time

02:39:05.639 - 02:39:20.500

we send you a type script and since you're already have today is 30. Yeah, I don't believe there's any way, even if we probably nothing else that we can get this done, it's time to get it to you before. But the, at the time that we,

02:39:22.160 - 02:39:40.459

oh, pretty good release form which turns over the property rights to the university archives here. It will be so, and you may indicate on that uh on that form, if you uh care to restrict any of your comments, you'll have a top script in front of

02:39:40.469 - 02:40:00.740

you the about page or paragraph for a longer period than five years. All right. Um and then, uh, as I say, everything will be closed for five years after that time, it would be, yeah, qualified research project by scholars. And they could not, you written permission

02:40:01.000 - 02:40:30.530

from then on? Uh, they, they, they form of me. Mhm. Oh, so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it will not be available to anyone. What better, not even there. Uh, a couple of things that have come up during the, the conversation I might push you about just briefly.

02:40:30.540 - 02:40:48.230

Uh You all of that going on, you mentioned that uh some of the casual contacts between the board and the faculty during this. No, no, I didn't mean it that way. This was sort of a general observation. Um And this is a somewhat of a, of

02:40:48.240 - 02:41:06.059

a paraphrase of one of Dean Richter's victim dicta. Uh He Dean Richer will always tell you that he's been here at Rice for how long now for some 40 years. And one of his basic principles has always been that keep the faculty and, and the board

02:41:06.070 - 02:41:22.679

apart each side think that the other side is brilliant until they meet each other. And then there's a ilusion and uh you know, these other ones counter the modern view that you should have a lot of communication, a lot of exchange, I think uh that uh

02:41:22.690 - 02:41:36.389

I I sort of tend to agree a bit with Dean Rich on this that it's not as a casual and not the contacts between members of the board and this on, on the weekend, they were not disastrous because, uh, these were mostly between people who already

02:41:36.400 - 02:41:54.759

had previous contacts and so on. But I sort of found that unless one could sort of have a much longer and more intimate contact, uh, because we start from different premises and have different values that you sort of have a sort of a casual confrontation now

02:41:54.769 - 02:42:10.379

and then over an issue, if of an important issue, it's likely more likely to lead to a clash than to a community of opinion. So this sort of a compact as a general proposition, not with regard to that weekend, but as a general proposition to try

02:42:10.389 - 02:42:25.709

to solve university problems, better communication. But I thought I have sort of casual contact uh that I don't think is an answer to anything. I, I think the only on, on this score, I think the only thing in the long run solution would be to have

02:42:26.700 - 02:42:43.320

some faculty members on the board of Governors where they can elected members who can speak for the mind of the faculty and who are responsible people uh and sort of have a selective continuous contact rather than casual random contact. And I think that's bad. I don't

02:42:43.330 - 02:42:58.719

think that gets us anywhere. Uh Either it is completely innocuous, like, you know, Mr Litke, a member of the board had a, a nice party at his house. And shortly after this, there were quite a few faculty people were invited and, and most of the board

02:42:58.730 - 02:43:13.009

members and I was there, it was very pleasant. Uh We talked about, chatted about this or that talked about everything except the ma now this is all very pleasant, just like any other party, you know, uh but that doesn't advance anything. And so the most might,

02:43:13.019 - 02:43:26.059

I best give one a misleading impression of what the other one is thinking. Uh The only time one really gets somewhere is one has to deal with hard issues and then you can't have it on sort of a very random II, I had this feeling from

02:43:26.070 - 02:43:41.740

talking about Mr Simons on, on this uh on issues that we do agree on. It's very easy to have random contact on issues where we have a considerable disagreement. I think the thing of the master situation, it would take an awful lot of exchanging of sort

02:43:41.750 - 02:43:57.019

of supporting information as to why we think in this way and that way and then why we disagree on that before we could sort of have uh uh see that something that we basically want the same thing, why we view it so differently to say nothing

02:43:57.030 - 02:44:10.419

and that it is different. Now, if there were faculty members on the Board of Governors that they are now in more and more schools, uh then this kind of a service would be rendered that they would really know better. They don't really know what the factors.

02:44:10.429 - 02:44:24.570

As a matter of fact, they have the foggiest notion of the board things, a few factors they do, but the most factors, some of them are very naive and some of them are very idealistic and, uh, some board members are, are, uh, rather misinformed as to

02:44:24.580 - 02:44:38.370

what kind of animals they have on this. Actually, I don't mean animals in any sense that they're beasts, but then, you know, what sort of human beings have, you know, what kind of person as individuals and, and, and what makes them sick and, and what makes

02:44:38.379 - 02:45:08.290

them jump and, and what makes them, babe, I want you to like you mentioned that and the faculty meeting Jack for God and rhythm very uh he was willing to by this thing, he put his hand. So, oh well, uh it's never advisable to uh be

02:45:08.299 - 02:45:24.290

the leader in a confrontation. Uh The uh I mean, obviously everybody on the board knows not what Jack Ward is and what Jack Ward did at the back of the meeting. I mean, they know they know who I am, they know where I stood and they

02:45:24.299 - 02:45:43.669

know who Franz Bronson was. I mean, uh it would be uh uh you know, in, in, in terms of that, I, I not implying that they're gonna take any kind of revenge or retribution, but they're also not gonna go out of their way uh to uh

02:45:43.679 - 02:45:59.980

appoint him, let's say to an endowed chair. Let's say, or to make him lean, you know, uh, I would say this is not in his favor. Let me put it this way and not drag water. Let's say, uh, it's never good to be known in an

02:45:59.990 - 02:46:18.129

unfavorable light by anybody. Suggest that the four to have. Well, but it does suggest that the board has to do more with the operation, internal operations than they do in a lot of places. Oh, yeah, they be involved with the question of the universities. Oh, of

02:46:18.139 - 02:46:31.580

course. I mean, they would, uh, they would certainly approve the board approved, even the appointment of an instructor in many schools. The department chairman can even appoint on a, on a up to a three year appointment and an assistant professor and he doesn't even have the,

02:46:31.589 - 02:46:49.009

the, the permission of the Princeton, for instance, uh, the department chairman can appoint a, an assistant professor on a non tenure position. Anybody on a non tenure position without even the approval of the dean because it's a non tenure position. Right. Not even an instructor is

02:46:49.019 - 02:47:07.940

appointed, nobody is appointed without the approval of the board. Well, I, I think, oh, I think in most instances the, they don't really look into it in most instances of the routine matter, but uh it might not be a routine matter. In, in, in some case

02:47:07.950 - 02:47:24.459

you see somebody, uh, the, uh, the rice board is a, and I'm talking about the board of trustees, not the Board of Governors. It's really a working board that keeps a very close track of what kind of decisions are made. Many budgetary decisions that in, in

02:47:24.469 - 02:47:44.639

most universities would be certainly in the hands of the president have to be made by the board. Like for instance, Rice, not even the president can authorize to shift, let's say $500 from A one B from a general budget item to a salary budget item. Let's

02:47:44.650 - 02:48:00.360

say you need the secretary or you need some part time typing or something like that. Uh which is a budget uh salary item. Uh And you have money in some other budget item that needs permission of the board to do. Now, the president can authorize between

02:48:00.370 - 02:48:19.440

shifts between other types of items, between non, so this is a form of control. The board exercises a much more detailed control r than any universities I know of and um put in a lot more time and a lot more work. Um then, then uh and

02:48:19.450 - 02:48:42.660

then mole so, so they could just by the negative attitude affect the career. Oh, yes, of course. They could me and that's all you. No, I don't think so. No, no, I think it's more usually in the south but not, not in the east or on

02:48:42.669 - 02:49:00.730

the west coast or in the big midwestern school because most of those schools have much larger boards and they meet less frequently, you know, the the Harvard board is very large and the uh the, the present has much more autonomy. Uh I think if the president

02:49:00.740 - 02:49:18.080

were to take a strong position on a situation like this and any strong president would be likely to, um they would not, probably would not want to overrule the president. But you, it's, it applies in a marginal case and you see a president, you know, has

02:49:18.969 - 02:49:30.589

he has, he can't fight over everything with a board. There are some things he will have to fight over and he has to pick and choose the things that he's gonna make enough of an issue over. And he's the guy got under the president's skin himself.

02:49:31.280 - 02:49:53.679

Uh He may not want to uh you know, make, make any kind of uh and this, this, you see this is why uh because of this, it is important that they, they have the right kind of president, the president in the school migraines because the, the

02:49:53.690 - 02:50:14.500

authority is highly centralized in the presence and over him, it is highly centralized, concentrated on the board. He hasn't got all that much leeway, but below him, there's very little leeway. Uh Our deans are essentially uh uh carry out the orders of the president. Uh I

02:50:14.509 - 02:50:30.790

think in, in recent years, the go and so you had, in the last couple of years of Pittsburg gotten a bit more elbow room, but before then, the president had been always highly centralized and Pitzer was inclined towards centralization because he was inclined to want to

02:50:30.799 - 02:50:47.240

do everything himself. And uh he uh he was the most remarkable administrator in every respect, except in his willingness to delegate authority. And he had a tremendous capacity for work. And he had a tremendous range and tremendous memory. He was sometimes selected to some things he

02:50:47.250 - 02:51:08.240

liked to forget and he had to be reminded of. But uh it was uh he did highly concentrated things and, and uh very often was willing to talk to the department chairman, uh when he should have told him, no, you go see the dean first. You

02:51:08.250 - 02:51:18.370

know, he was willing to talk to the department chairman and they agree on something. He said, well, you better talk to the knee. Now, what do you have that agree with? So he was sort of using the dean going around the back now in last year,

02:51:18.379 - 02:51:32.490

in the last couple of years, especially after the Panza became dean. Uh I, I, I'm quite sure as one of the conditions since the Panza had been a chairman, I'm quite sure, look, is there something I'm supposed to decide? I wanna talk to them first and

02:51:32.500 - 02:51:44.240

then they can talk to you if they want to. And, uh from then on Pita sort of change the technique. And, uh, it was a lot easier on chairman because I got a dean to find your vitals for the president. And because before then you see,

02:51:44.250 - 02:51:57.860

we had so many deans and they shifted back and forth and we had for too many, too many acting deans. And when you have an acting dean, uh, this, this contributed to the fact that the, now I personally like to work with pal directly because you

02:51:57.870 - 02:52:12.269

could always get a quick answer. And, uh, he, uh, he knew even on things that he said, well, ok, it's ok, but of course, I'll have to check on it for the board when he said, ok, he could count that the board would go with it

02:52:12.280 - 02:52:29.820

partly because he knew what the board student and this is what it takes. Somebody who really understands the board and what they, uh, so he, he sees that thinking and, uh, it was very important. He was anytime call up. Uh, Mr Ma Look Malcolm, I got

02:52:29.830 - 02:52:58.799

this problem here and this is what we want to do and, uh, I never had to go a few times and that love was always very cooper. So another thing I wanna ask you, did you? Ok. No, I didn't. Uh, I was, I came down to

02:52:58.809 - 02:53:11.669

the gym when the, the meeting was just about over and I had to make some phone calls and came and walk back to my office. Uh, in fact, I walked a part of the way with the patient, but I was really walking past her and I

02:53:11.679 - 02:53:27.209

want to get to my office because I had some appointment. I told someone I was gonna call him and then I was, II, I went down but it took so long for medicine to come out there. And then I, I just left before he came. The

02:53:27.330 - 02:53:49.040

weather is, yes. The, the Saturday night, Saturday night, all the colleges had meetings and, and, uh, I did, I was over at the Hanson College, uh, for a bit but before the real college meeting had gotten started and, and I was very tired, I was just

02:53:49.049 - 02:54:06.790

exhausted and I just went home and went to bed because I just discovered I didn't have a stomach for this kind of stuff and, uh, it really wore me down. And then I attended some of the meetings that Gordon called for department chairman and student leaders

02:54:06.799 - 02:54:33.169

on Monday and Tuesday. What was your impression about the, uh, state? Well, Monday night, Monday, Monday night, uh, prior to masters between the college meetings, for instance, and masters, do you feel that the, is there, uh, would be, were escalating or? Oh, no, the, the cinnamons

02:54:33.179 - 02:54:46.150

were really escalating on the part of the ST and in fact, this was a matter of considerable concern because the feeling was, I, I think Warren Scarum just proved to be a tremendous individual and really knew the phase that I