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This poor. Today is June 18th, 1969. This is interview number 34 uh Doctor Fran Brotman Brotman. The um meter setting is 145 and kind of 830 called Arroy. An address home is 3612 Overbrook Bla Houston, Texas 7787. I'm a professor of Material Science located Space Science

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building. 112, a good well doctor, I uh I, I sort of uh getting appointed. Uh uh good here. I wanted to give you some idea of what it is we're looking for in these um in these interviews we're interested uh in your private recollections uh of,

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of what happened, your private interpretation of these events and uh what meaning you attributed to them uh any change in uh your attitude or outlook or as new developments uh came about. Uh you can, you can handle it any way you uh any, any way you

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want, even in a chronological way uh or um topically uh that uh it suits you better. We're interested in such things for instance as um oh, I really uh the understanding of the presidency in a private university of this size in this part of the country

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in America in the seven decade of the 20th century. And uh the, the qualities of the um that you think a man uh should have in order to uh feel that effectively. Well, let me tell me the real quick and it has some direct reference also

00:02:05.529 - 00:02:35.089

to what happened uh during the last academic year. You see at the present time, one of the, in my opinion, at least, and one of the most important things in the presidency of a university is the rapidly changing financial situation of private universities. Um Well, it's

00:02:35.100 - 00:02:55.169

a very significant point. I mean, we all all universities funds and if you're an alumnus alumna of a university, then of course, you know, you get bombarded with requests for contributions. Uh this thing however, is real and undoubtedly will become far more significant in the years

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to come and we have already experienced some of it. Um All you have to think for a moment, if you permit me this digression here for a moment, it might take longer than intended. Um is the cost of an assistant professor uh 10 years ago and

00:03:13.490 - 00:03:28.679

the cost of an assistant professor at this time, simply as far as salaries concerned that virtually has gone up 100% which is far beyond what the the uh uh normal inflationary rise over the same period of time as a result of it. Of course, the universities

00:03:28.690 - 00:03:48.940

now are very very uh in a tough situation as far as funds are concerned. Um some universities have tried to solve this problem by um acquiring presidents who are primarily fundraisers. And uh as a result of it, they have paid very little attention to such uh

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qualifications at times such as scholarship and so on. Um The Rice University has been in a somewhat different situation because traditionally, the board of trustees has felt that it is their primary primary function to uh raise funds and that the president was more or less a

00:04:08.759 - 00:04:23.619

man to take care of the internal affairs of the university. There's no doubt about it. This is going to change whether it was the next president or the president thereafter. I do not know. Uh but uh this will become a very major operation of the administration

00:04:23.630 - 00:04:47.320

of the university, uh obviously aided by the board of trustees. Now, as a result of it, I feel that the uh function of the board of trustees which used to be limited entirely limited to the um essentially to the financial aspects providing the work with all

00:04:47.329 - 00:05:06.565

of the university is now, of course, uh coming closer, they're looking much more closely at the budget than they used to do. Um They are much more concerned with the image of the university um before potential givers. And um and understandably so and of course, also

00:05:06.575 - 00:05:26.649

slops overall into the choice of the president that you have in mind. Very clearly. Um No, the board of the board of, I should say really all over the United States as a result of it have become more involved in the day to day operation of

00:05:26.660 - 00:05:45.799

the university. Now, what, where does that put the president? Of course, ideally, the president should then be a person who represents the university to the board and at the same time presents the board to the university. Um I do think that it would be best for

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the best operations after the university men or a member of considerable stature so that he does say I do represent the university, meaning the faculty and the students, of course. And on the other hand, that he also be sufficiently um acceptable to the board so that

00:06:07.019 - 00:06:24.899

they can have faith in him to represent, let me say the board or the financial situation or the community reaction or whatever it is to the university as a whole. This requires of course, first of all, a person with considerable stature in academic community, it would

00:06:24.910 - 00:06:46.119

require in the second place, a person who has administrative skills, not in the or in the normal sense of the word um by uh pushing papers efficiently, not only that, but someone else will get that um sufficiently, but also in the sense that you can see

00:06:46.149 - 00:07:02.709

what is important. And um uh as far as the development of the university is concerned in the future and get the whole body to co-operate in some form because it's quite obvious that one man cannot do it um who needs the help of other people. It's

00:07:02.720 - 00:07:19.119

getting more and more complex the student situation at the present time. And you know, of course, that this is an extremely difficult job. It does require the kind of all right call or whatever it is. Plus, of course, the efficiency to use the 24 hours of

00:07:19.130 - 00:07:40.600

the day. Uh uh top of it, then of course, the president has to have in the third place, the um uh an understanding of the financial situation. In other words, the men must know how to handle a budget properly. He cannot just delegate this to someone

00:07:40.609 - 00:07:58.010

else. This is not possible. Um With these things in mind, I do think what we need now is what we would think of needing, at least as a president, there may not be. But ideally you ask the question, if you have a man with a scholar,

00:07:58.769 - 00:08:14.720

we ought to have a man who has had some administrative experience. We ought to have a man who is not averse to going out and uh talking to potential donors and have the proper way of doing this. And of course, there is a man who because

00:08:14.730 - 00:08:36.830

of his character, strength of character will consistently both the boys on one hand and the faculty and to students on the other hand, to uh uh make the communication between these two forces effective. That is essentially what we need. I know these are generalities, I mean,

00:08:36.840 - 00:08:49.919

but, but, uh, basically, I hope that answers your question but I think the president ought to be like, yes, it certainly does. It, uh, it brings up one other question. Uh, uh, what do you think, uh, are the chances of rise? Uh, or, well, maybe I

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should put it this way at the time. Uh, you were looking at potential tele, uh was it in your mind at that time that, that you could find a man who embodied uh uh a good balance of these qualities? Yes. Yes, we, we thought so, I

00:09:04.005 - 00:09:20.809

mean, not that we, I, I don't want to say that we had a man. Uh but um we did think that there were such people. Uh we did not know about the availability frankly, but uh we certainly were aiming at something on the subject. I would

00:09:20.820 - 00:09:40.909

like to say in that um earlier discussions with uh Mr Lovett of the board, uh do not show any great difference in, in, in uh uh yeah, and what would be acceptable to the university? Really? It doesn't, I was wondering if you'd ever, uh if there

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was ever much discussion of uh of breaking up this extremely complex function into something of a dual uh nature so that you had, it has been brought up however, more recently, this is not very, no, not of your of time it has been brought up very

00:09:56.679 - 00:10:13.409

recently and, um, apparently the feeling at least of one member of the board, uh, the one with whom this was uh discussed, uh Mr Lovett was that this might not be too good a situation. And I think he has a point there because it would Presuppose

00:10:13.419 - 00:10:28.229

that the two men would work together extremely well and we simply cannot fully predict that, uh, it may eventually come to that. But uh still, it, it, it's not uh like I say, it's not in the books right now. Well, what about the possibility of a

00:10:28.239 - 00:10:42.869

manage method that move? This has not been, um uh this has not been discussed in, at this point. Do you know of any situations in the country where that seems to be working out fairly well? Is, is, is, is that the situation that that uh uh

00:10:42.880 - 00:11:03.140

is now occurring at MIT or, or? Well, mit always had uh and quite a number of state universities uh had uh dual functions like that in a sense. Uh in a very minor sense, we had a little bit of advice being primarily responsible for the outside.

00:11:03.150 - 00:11:20.539

Um Let me say he was the, the, the Secretary of State, so to speak uh with the outside relations. And uh Pitzer at the time was concerned more inside. It doesn't quite fit here, the pattern. But uh there's some similarity and of course, this has been

00:11:20.549 - 00:11:37.919

done in quite a few universities. It is, uh, uh, you're quite right at mit, of course, it has been the situation for some time as a matter of fact, um, with, um, and then, um, let me see that the, uh, not at Harvard, at Harvard, it

00:11:37.929 - 00:11:51.969

seems to be primarily one men, but at Harvard, the power of the d as far as the tunnel affairs are concerned is, is very, very large. It's a little bit different there in that respect. We doing it too. Uh It's a minor really, in a sense,

00:11:51.979 - 00:12:10.809

it's not, uh it has been, I'm not going to do it. It certainly has been uh very in minor uh because uh it all three tenants that we have had in the past. Um should I say people who uh believed in centralized government and um as

00:12:10.820 - 00:12:29.559

a result of it, their, their function was really uh one of carrying out a policy and occasionally advising, but no more than that, there's no real authority in the life. I've never been up to now. Well, as long as it certainly, it has proved to be

00:12:29.570 - 00:12:50.520

rather effective because um I, I don't believe that we have to make any apologies for um the uh administration of uh Doctor Lovett originally of uh Doctor Houston subsequently. And certainly Doctor Pitzer, although each of them was completely different, but uh they were the same in

00:12:50.530 - 00:13:12.390

that respect. I mean, the Dean CHS were um of, of minor significance really in all three cases. And the uh decision making power lay almost exclusively with the president. Interestingly enough, um a good bit more um advisory, um a great art advisory role was really conferred

00:13:12.400 - 00:13:29.510

to the faculty under Pitzer than under anyone else. Uh He was quite conscious of that and um uh as a matter of fact, uh at Stanford, he is carrying it extremely far as far as I know uh how, how did that uh work was, did he

00:13:29.520 - 00:13:49.250

work through a faculty committee or the faculty? What he did? What he normally did was this, he first of all gave the faculty counsel um a good bit more um uh authority or rather, I shouldn't say authority but certainly more um uh power of um of

00:13:49.260 - 00:14:07.080

advice uh than had ever done before. Um And he, in other words, he came to the faculty council with many, many questions that never before had been discussed before the faculty council. He um in the second place, he um relied a good fair deal more on

00:14:07.090 - 00:14:23.419

the individual committees that standing committees that existed. And uh he made much more use at hope committees to settle certain questions, faculty at hope committees. And, and I might add, at this point that it was also his idea to add students to the committees, you know,

00:14:23.429 - 00:14:40.190

that came from him. Um So in other words, you did make, uh um there were changes along these lines. I mentioned your comment about your, um, uh, your, uh, discussions with, uh, Malcolm Levitt and your, uh, indication that, uh, your views were not far apart on

00:14:40.200 - 00:15:00.169

the, no, not at all originally. No. And still, I don't think they are very far apart really. Right now. It possibly is a, uh, um, a matter of, of, um, uh, emphasis and it might be a matter of procedure where our, where we didn't quite jibe.

00:15:00.479 - 00:15:16.080

But, um, basically, um, I do think, uh I'm quite con sincerely convinced that if you had Mr Lovett sitting here and you asked me the same question that he might say it in different words, but I do not think that there would be a, a great

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difference in substance. Really. How do you count then for, for what happened? Well, I, I really, um, well, what happened essentially and overall you're referring now to the quote Masterson affair, I take it, uh, well, uh what happened was simply this, that, um, there were a

00:15:39.659 - 00:16:20.229

combination of um possibly unfortunate circumstances on one hand and, um, probably some, uh misunderstanding of part of me, say some disagreement on what is good for the university. Um The, um, let me see, the point is very simply this in um past years and this is

00:16:20.239 - 00:16:39.380

not so very long ago. A matter of fact, this is 56 years ago. Um, the board on one hand practically did not meddle at all in affairs of the universities. That's generally speaking. And that's also true of rice. You know, there was no need for it

00:16:39.390 - 00:17:05.270

financially. There was really no problem strictly speaking, you know, um on the other hand, the faculties accepted without any whimper, any decision that came from the board, period, it just was the way it was some sort of a very um patriarchal arrangement in a sense. And

00:17:05.280 - 00:17:20.890

then, uh really, at the time everybody was happy, there's no doubt about it. I mean, it, it worked very well, but of course, it's a different ball game apparently no, for a number of reasons, one of them is the uh um greater mobility of faculties partly

00:17:20.900 - 00:17:35.099

caused of, caused by the enormous uh spurt in, in uh uh higher education, there are more job openings than they used to be as a result of its salaries are higher and as a result of its faculties move around a good bit more than they used

00:17:35.109 - 00:17:50.680

to. They feel far more independent than they ever have. And the second place of course is the um unrest among students. Let's not go into that. I mean, there are books have been written about it in the meanwhile and all of us probably have some idea,

00:17:50.689 - 00:18:04.569

but this can't deny, of course, that students are very definitely questioning not only what is happening on the national scene, but they're questioning very definitely also what is happening in the universities. And of course, we have to be honest about it. Too, that an awful lot

00:18:04.579 - 00:18:22.864

of things that are happening and have happened in the universities, of course, strictly speaking by any objective standard, unacceptable. And therefore, of course, the students are uh questioning this and of course, the faculty is questioning this include the question on the faculty on questions. Of course,

00:18:22.875 - 00:18:41.800

primarily this isn't made by the admin person, this isn't smoke by the board. And that's a result of the gulf between admin place on one hand and faculty, on the other hand, naturally has widened just somewhat, you know, you can't deny that. Well, therefore, the board

00:18:41.810 - 00:18:58.819

however, does not see that the board correctly reads the charter over and over and over again and finds that according to the charter, they are the corporation and the only persons legally responsible for the university and there's no doubt about it. They are. In other words,

00:18:58.829 - 00:19:12.599

if something does go wrong with this university, I as a professor may have to look for a new job, but a trustee is in the state of Texas as much as may have to go to jail for it. He is personally responsible. They're aware of that

00:19:12.920 - 00:19:34.920

and they're painfully aware of it and they take it in such a way that they must protect, understandably, of course, their position in such a way that their decision is final. And here is of course, where we run into a problem. Now, uh it is quite

00:19:34.930 - 00:19:52.770

obvious you can say on one hand, the both hands do not only these powers, but they both hands these responsibilities. Um On the other hand, you say that if they had chosen somebody, let me say John G instead of Masterson or Masterson instead of John G

00:19:53.040 - 00:20:07.540

as they did. Um This still would not put him into jail or get him out of jail. I mean, this is not the question, you know, and what we are with the faculty is primarily concerned with is of course to have a place in which they

00:20:07.550 - 00:20:26.540

can thrive academically primarily. And that's honest about it also to a certain degree financially, you know, uh they would like to be associated with a going concern. In other words, um this I think is a justified uh perfectly justified point of view. The board of trustees

00:20:26.550 - 00:20:47.319

doesn't deny that for a moment. However, they feel that since theirs is the responsibility, they are the decision making body and now they carry it so far that they make decisions which to the faculty appear unwise. Now, it is very difficult to get this across to

00:20:47.329 - 00:21:02.040

people on the board of trustees because they simply say yes, but we are the only legally responsible. So you cannot tell us, we know what's wise for us and what's wise for us is wise for the university. The board faculty, many members of the faculty would

00:21:02.050 - 00:21:15.500

and I'm included and this one would say now, wait a minute, this is not quite right. You know, because frankly if you have an ingrown toenail, you do not go to a psychiatrist. I mean, when you have an ingrown toenail, you go to a po, uh,

00:21:15.510 - 00:21:32.439

to a, uh, what is it, the podiatrist. Um, so to some sort of a foot doctor, obviously. So therefore if you have an academic problem, you don't go to a direct to a lawyer or a, or a, uh, uh, president of a bank, but you go

00:21:32.449 - 00:21:48.209

to the faculty who knows or presumably at least knows what goes on within the university. And as the internal problems of the university becoming more severe every day, you have to rely more on the faculty than ever. So it would be only wise on your part

00:21:48.359 - 00:22:07.410

to co-operate with the faculty instead of widening the gulf. That's all there is to it. It's a little bit the situation as I did tell. As a matter of fact, several board members on one occasion, um a little incident that happened to me and a number

00:22:07.420 - 00:22:27.390

of years ago in Germany, I was driving in a car with a German engineer and on the ALBA, he was going 100 and 20 kilometers an hour and um it was a very wet, sleepy day and I got more and more worried about my own safety.

00:22:27.400 - 00:22:41.069

And I turned to the man and I said, uh aren't you doing a little bit fast? And he said, turn to me and I said, no, I'm within the speed limit and he was right. He was because there is no speed limit on that particular part

00:22:41.079 - 00:22:59.270

of the abdomen. And he was legally correct. And I still think he was damn unwise in doing it. And the board is going 100 and 20 kilometers per hour legally. Correct. Uh On a wet auto bo and, and um uh this is uh simply not uh

00:22:59.280 - 00:23:26.369

not uh not very wise on their part. Um Unfortunately, as a result of what happened and what happened is I think, rather clear, uh the board um probably acted precipitously in appointing Masterson, um that um subsequently felt that their authority was challenged and that they had

00:23:26.380 - 00:23:47.920

to prove from now on that their authority is uh by the charge by law. And therefore, uh much of a human reaction on their part is that they constantly have to prove it to us and to themselves and uh I hope they'll get over it and

00:23:47.930 - 00:24:03.680

then where, where we can go sit down and, and, and uh get some work done, I think we will. But uh it, it's not gonna be easy. Who uh which name is the board uh heard the were present when you made this, uh that one was

00:24:03.689 - 00:24:17.319

Mr Teague and Mr Lovett, what was their reaction to your comment? They said, came back with the idea that there is a legal responsibility. I've heard there's now 100 and 50 times if I heard it once and, uh, they just don't get off it, which nobody

00:24:17.329 - 00:24:33.170

denies. I mean, then, then if I say, you don't deny it. So what do you do if you challenge our to say? And this is where we, no, no, no. They feel that their wisdom is theirs because theirs is the responsibility. They can, they, uh, feel

00:24:33.180 - 00:24:46.050

that wisdom and responsibility are one of the same thing that you see. When you have the responsibility, then you have to make the decision that is proper within your responsibility. And you do not, yes, you can ask people for advice, but you can't take it or

00:24:46.060 - 00:25:01.719

leave it the advice. And this is the stand. That's the position which we are right now, um which is legally correct. I mean, they don't have to ask anyone legally, they don't have to ask anyone. I mean, this, everybody understands that part of it. So the

00:25:01.729 - 00:25:16.219

only thing is we can do is plead with them that they in the interest of the university, in the interest of the next men because it would be a very awkward situation if a man came in here and would not have the respect of the faculty

00:25:16.229 - 00:25:36.189

and the cooper operation of the faculty. Uh Of course, it may be possibly um somewhat um uh influenced also by the idea of uh board members who by and large are businessmen. That this is a very simple situation that the um board are the employers, the

00:25:36.199 - 00:25:59.589

faculty, the employees and the uh students are people who are admitted by the grace of the uh board and the faculty. And um and I don't believe that this quite this picture quite fits into 1969. Uh And uh they, but uh I mean, they never expressed

00:25:59.599 - 00:26:15.099

it in these terms. This is my interpretation, but it does come through and it's understandable because if you run a company, essentially, you run a company like that. That's very true. But even in business then they can't, they can't ignore, uh, uh, the, uh, the availability

00:26:15.109 - 00:26:35.410

of the raw material or the, uh, the more I don't believe they do want to ignore it anymore. I mean, that, I don't believe this is true. Um, they, um, they really don't, I do think they are more concerned with, uh, um, the, um, uh, making

00:26:35.420 - 00:26:57.099

sure that theirs is a final decision. Now, um, quite frankly, I, uh, I'm more concerned. I mean, this is being very, very honest now and, and, uh, very frank, uh, I do believe that we can work together with the board. II, I really honestly think so

00:26:57.109 - 00:27:15.839

now in, in maybe not the way that we originally envisaged, you know. Well, we have to roll with the punches after all. Um, the, um, board undoubtedly is going to come up with someone and the board promised that they would discuss any person with us who's

00:27:15.849 - 00:27:35.719

seriously considered that's fine. But the board also makes clear that regardless of our attitude towards this person, they still have the power of appointing someone who may be not pleasing to us. Uh And really, they didn't have to say that because we knew that all the

00:27:35.729 - 00:27:51.040

time that they can do it. The only thing that we question, of course, it might not be wise to do it. You know, that, that, that's where the, the, the hitch is. Um I don't believe that uh I honestly believe that they will not look for

00:27:51.050 - 00:28:15.619

someone who is going to be particularly obnoxious or, or unacceptable to the faculty. I'm quite sure they won't do that. Um And the only thing is that with the increasing um influence of boards and I'm deliberately using the plural here and because it's not limited to

00:28:15.630 - 00:28:43.910

rice at all in this attitude, limited to increase the influence of the board on academic decisions of the university directly or indirectly. Um The um we have to understand that there is more of a uh a region of friction, more of an area of friction is

00:28:43.920 - 00:29:00.324

created than there ever was before because obviously, we feel that we know something about education faculty and uh this may not be correct, but that's the way we feel about it because that's our bread and butter. You know, on the other hand, we are not about

00:29:00.334 - 00:29:17.390

to go out normally and tell a pre a member of the board who's may be president of a bank, how to run his bank either, you know. So, um the main point here is that if we find a good man for president, and let's say every

00:29:17.400 - 00:29:35.010

one of us agrees, the board is happy with the prospect of getting this man. We are happy with the prospect of getting this man. Everybody is happy and then this man is brought in here um for personal interview and he has to listen to some of

00:29:35.020 - 00:30:01.410

the clearly outmoded. Uh No question about it. Uh All right, prog diet, um views on education by the board by board members. I should say if this menace, any smidgen of sanity left, he wouldn't accept the job. This is what worries me. You know, it is

00:30:01.420 - 00:30:13.689

not anymore that we cannot cooper with the board. I mean, it's, it's afraid that this man, uh after all, I mean, he has to work with the board and he knows very well that this is where the budget comes from. Let's not kid ourselves. It's the,

00:30:13.699 - 00:30:32.890

the all important thing. Um And this, this does worry me now, um how to get over this. I don't know. I mean, it's just, this is, uh this is I'm, I'm being very frank about this. I mean, I'm just thinking down the road if he's here

00:30:32.900 - 00:30:48.160

and, and what, what may happen. Uh on the other hand, there may be somebody who says, oh, well, I mean, I can educate these people. It's possible, you know, it would take quite a minute though. Let me ask you about John Gardner. Um, do you uh

00:30:48.170 - 00:30:57.719

know of any reason why the board would object to a man his name? I don't think they would object to him. No, I just just said, I don't think in the first place he's available, you know, he was offered the job at Stanford and didn't take

00:30:57.729 - 00:31:14.260

it. So, I mean, why should he take an advice? I just picked his name in order to get him obviously uh um glorious candidate. What is he doing now? I, I put a little quick, I know he is uh I believe still associated with the um

00:31:14.609 - 00:31:36.469

Carnegie Foundation, but his main job is he's on this urban coalition and he's running essentially this urban coalition on this new thing. I think out of Washington, if I'm not mistaken um as a result of, of this experience um has, has this led you to question

00:31:36.479 - 00:32:07.020

the uh the function and purpose of the board in uh in private education uh today or the competence of members? Uh Well, not really. I um I do think there are a number of number of features uh that should be taken into consideration. Number one, of

00:32:07.030 - 00:32:27.829

course, it probably is no longer appropriate for the board of trustees to consist entirely of businessmen, lawyers as it has been in the past. Not so much that these are not competent people because they are certainly competent in their particular fields of interest. There's no question

00:32:27.839 - 00:32:47.849

about that and very often make very competent boards of trustees have certainly in the past. But the role of the university today is much more closely interwoven with the community and society than it ever has not. I wouldn't say ever has before, but certainly for, has

00:32:47.859 - 00:33:09.270

been in the last century or so. Now, with this in mind, you should have on the boards, particularly since I elaborated on this, since the board has a considerable amount of decision making, even in internal affairs directly or indirectly, much of it indirectly um on the

00:33:09.280 - 00:33:28.699

running of the university. And more so, every day, I think it would be appropriate to bring in people from other spheres. Now, for example, I could imagine that a board of trustees should consist of uh not only businessmen and uh lawyers but uh people as diverse

00:33:28.709 - 00:33:47.849

as uh people, major people in the labor movement just to throw in a name here, uh possibly even a clergyman or so. Um then there might be people um uh faculty members, it doesn't even have to be faculty members of their own faculty. There might be

00:33:47.859 - 00:34:04.250

someone else from another institution in order to see in order to make the operation less provincial to see what other places are doing. Um the um idea of imperium in imperio as it says here on the tomb of Mr Rice I mean, uh, in this day

00:34:04.260 - 00:34:24.139

and age of rapid communication, I mean, this is just, doesn't apply anymore. Um, I do believe therefore that the boards ought to be reconstituted in this form. I also think since we are talking here about a public trust that something of that sort can only come,

00:34:24.820 - 00:34:39.840

would probably only come by, um, by and large. Um, some exceptions, they might do it institute themselves, which they're afraid to do by the way, they can choose anyone on the board. So like anyone from the board, they feel like uh they could put a little

00:34:39.850 - 00:34:58.270

orphan any on if they feel like it, um the um board can, um uh it probably would have to come by by some sort of a state law. Of course, this is a long ways down the road because uh this is a public trust, let's face

00:34:58.280 - 00:35:24.340

it. You see, and it's therefore really watched over by the state. And um it would probably have to be the state that um that institutes some changes made overall changes for all the various universities. Um interestingly enough, the state universities, not necessarily in Texas have um

00:35:24.350 - 00:35:39.629

had much more the kind of boards of regions and uh that I'm, I'm talking about here than the private universities have had in that respect. I think they're well ahead of us. Um This is probably one thing that will have to come eventually and of course,

00:35:39.639 - 00:35:56.709

there is considerable push of having faculty members on the board in order, particularly since it is recognized that the board is, has an influence on the, on the educational policy of the university. Uh And I think in the long run this will come, but you say

00:35:56.719 - 00:36:13.040

that they, they could uh make uh certain themselves, but they can letting anyone, anyone, can anyone put anyone on if you like, they have a perfect right to do it. They're self continuing, they're self uh generating so to speak. They, they, they made by co that's

00:36:13.050 - 00:36:32.949

correct. They vote among themselves who the next guy will be. Now you see Rice made already some step in that direction by admitting alumni to the board elected alumni. In other words, they have right here. They have given away any little bit of their prerogative by,

00:36:32.959 - 00:36:52.520

they felt apparently the alumni was safe enough, but it's voted in by a secret vote by the alumni, one member of the board, not of trustees, but board of governors, you know, term governors. Um and I was here, they have um given up the right to

00:36:52.530 - 00:37:10.110

select one member very little. But I mean, it's there that one governor out of what they are 14 at the present time, seven of them are trustees and seven of them are term governors and um really the the power legally and otherwise rests as I understand

00:37:10.120 - 00:37:39.600

it completely with the seven trustees. However, how did you happen to um to uh get on this faculty um uh committee on presidential selection. Well, um after President Pitzer resigned and, and subsequently in September, the uh chairman of the board, Mr Lovett apparently um mentioned or

00:37:39.610 - 00:38:03.100

asked specifically Mr Pitt and the then chief executive Mr Gordon um to have the faculty institute a committee um to advise the board. Actually, the um uh quite interesting. The word is fairly important in connection with us here. The word came out if I remember as

00:38:03.110 - 00:38:34.659

a faculty search committee to assist the board's committee in finding a president. Uh the news release however, came out as a faculty screening committee. The words are quite different obviously. And um the uh faculty subsequently, this was submitted to the faculty council. The faculty council voted

00:38:34.669 - 00:38:59.879

at the time to uh add uh student members as consultants, not voting members to such a faculty committee and suggested that the faculty committee be made up of three people from the Liberal Arts and three people from Science Engineering elected in secret ballot by the same

00:38:59.889 - 00:39:23.810

method as faculty council members are elected. Um Subsequently, this was submitted to the faculty to a faculty meeting and with some minor modifications was accepted by the faculty. There was then a secret ballot nominations following then the procedure that has been adopted for uh for election

00:39:23.820 - 00:39:42.929

of faculty council members. Uh There was then a uh nomination or nominations from the Liberal Arts on one hand. And science Engineering on the other hand, and I cannot remember right now, how many people were nominated? And uh then subsequently, there was the election um that

00:39:42.939 - 00:40:11.449

led to three um li arts people being topazio um Bill Cadell of the Art School of Architecture and uh Gaston Remlinger of the Department of Economics. And uh in science Engineering, there was Chapman of Mechanical Engineering, uh Salzburg of Chemistry and uh myself. So um then

00:40:11.459 - 00:40:32.429

we met subsequently, the six of us before the students took quite a while to find their representatives. Um In the meanwhile, we met and um the uh again by a secret ballot, elected a chairman and this fell upon me. So that's the way it was. I'm

00:40:32.439 - 00:40:48.919

very impressed with your grasp of the overall problems of, of education which uh uh you don't often find uh in a uh uh uh a scholar. Uh You have some special interest in this or uh made a study of it or uh not particularly no. And

00:40:48.929 - 00:41:04.459

you read and, and, and you concern yourself with all of bread and butter and then you wouldn't be in a university if you weren't interested in education. I think this is particularly true. I do believe of, of scientist engineers because um quite frankly, because when you

00:41:04.469 - 00:41:24.989

join a university, you sort of make a decision that you are willing to live on a lesser income than you could normally make an industry. And therefore you must have some find it attractive and, and interesting and fascinating because otherwise you wouldn't do it. I think

00:41:25.000 - 00:41:42.219

it's quite common. Well, when, um uh when the full committee, uh uh the addition of the students came about, uh I understand that you went through a screening process of looking over a number of what we did. Then, one of the first things that we did

00:41:42.229 - 00:41:59.090

at the time was to ask our faculty and students uh to submit names. And uh we received a large, a large number of names, um 60 odd names in a very short time. Did you yourself submit any? Uh I myself did not submit any. No. Um

00:41:59.100 - 00:42:19.649

There were a few people's names from the university were submitted, but very few. Um most of them were outside people, virtually all of them were associated with other universities. In other words, they were scholars, practically all of them. And um the committee including the students from

00:42:19.659 - 00:42:40.425

then on all meetings and included the students. We did not have any executive sessions without our consultants, student, consultants um were discussed quite freely these names and everybody made his comment on every name on whom we had some form of a dossier. Very often the dossier

00:42:40.435 - 00:43:04.159

was inadequate and we didn't have too much, but we had uh a pretty good idea of who would be offhand, unacceptable and who could stand further uh scrutiny of course, and traditional information. And um this list um of course, as a result of it, this number

00:43:04.169 - 00:43:30.399

shrank considerably. And uh that was our primary function at that time, we were just in the process of trying to contact um of contacting actually such organizations, the American Council on Education, um other universities uh that recently had acquired presidents and possibly had experience uh along

00:43:30.409 - 00:43:47.189

these lines and if possible, even a list of names of uh available people um and so on and we were just when the master something happened. So, I mean, I just interrupted it and as it stands right now, we are no longer doing that part of

00:43:47.199 - 00:44:06.409

it. Uh We are now, we are still open to suggestions. We will pass on our suggestions to the board search committee which was reconstituted by the way. Also, it's a new committee there. Um It is now the actual sub-committee of the board that deals with uh

00:44:06.419 - 00:44:26.290

faculty, students and alumni affairs. It's headed by Mr Tea. It's the same committee that does a search. Uh It still consists only of members of the board, only members of the board. Correct. That's the committee and they, and the counterpart is our committee which also was

00:44:26.300 - 00:44:57.409

reconstituted as you know, because you see it's now uh the um six members of the uh elected members present elected members of the faculty council. In other words, there's again um um this time there is uh from Science Engineering, there is Chapman and myself and from

00:44:57.419 - 00:45:28.989

the Liberal Arts, excuse me, Chapin myself and there's somebody else. Um, yeah, King Walters, right. King Wallace. And then there is, um, from the Liberal Arts. There are three, ward in English. Um, Check Ward then, um, um, let's see, Price Williams in psychology. And, uh, uh,

00:45:29.899 - 00:45:53.939

I think it's the sixth one and this is a brand new committee. They only met one so far. Um, not ridiculous. Let me see. But that's 1/6 person. Now, you, um, that's, it's on record who can, who can feel this thing there because they blocking my

00:45:53.949 - 00:46:19.360

mind, right? And I should know it. It's ridiculous. Um How, uh how did you first get information that, uh, or any inkling that the board had made a decision? Were there any, uh, rumors, uh what happened was this, um on, um, since we had not gotten

00:46:19.370 - 00:46:35.739

simply the impression the committee that the board was doing anything, apparently we were wrong. But I mean, this is the impression we got because there was no communication and it had been impossible to come right down to having a meeting with the board committee, although we

00:46:35.750 - 00:46:57.340

were promised such a meeting and this was apparently made impossible as a result of the illness of Mr Lovett. But all right, uh In January, we decided that we would try to produce some reaction from the board one way or another and wrote the board a

00:46:57.350 - 00:47:16.620

letter in which we said here are five names. This is very tentative. These are not our final choices. It's unfortunately, this was all blown up beyond this part of what I'm just saying, which I think is very important, which we wrote in quite intentionally was completely

00:47:16.629 - 00:47:32.739

forgotten. Because later on a number of people painted this picture as if these were the only five names that we really meant to exist. We made it very clear that this was not the case, but that we would like to have the reaction of this kind

00:47:32.750 - 00:47:48.469

of people from the board. So we hope to get a letter back from the board. On this letter was mailed on a Monday. And on Wednesday morning, I had a telephone call from Mr Lovett who said that this was very nice this letter and he appreciated

00:47:48.479 - 00:48:07.459

that. And some of these people they had themselves considered and we even discussed the uh pronunciation of one of the names which was a bit difficult and uh the uh uh and so on and so forth. This went very well and he said, please keep up

00:48:07.469 - 00:48:21.929

the good work. I'm sorry, I have to go into the hospital tomorrow for an operation, but keep up the good work. This is just fine and, and uh we'll get together. This was Wednesday morning. Your understanding that at that as a result of that conversation then

00:48:21.939 - 00:48:37.330

was that you were very close uh together on uh oh, definitely earlier personal discussions. I, I had met with Mr Lovett personally before not the committees, but just Mr Lovett and I, and we were in complete agreement on what uh kind of a person he should

00:48:37.340 - 00:48:54.000

be a scholar. According to Mr Lovett, he wanted a younger man around 40. And of course, we kept that in mind. Um and uh he didn't have to have extensive proven administrative ability. According to Mr Lovett, he felt that this was quite possible. I agree with

00:48:54.010 - 00:49:08.120

him to a certain degree there. And I conveyed this to my committee and, and everybody seemed to be very well in favor of these things and we felt that this was really not too, we are not too far apart, but this was on Wednesday. This is

00:49:08.129 - 00:49:34.689

significant on Friday, Mr Masterson was appointed. So they're obviously, I mean, you can conclude either they acted very hastily or which I do not believe Mr Lovett misled me on Wednesday, one or the other. Uh I do believe that they acted very hastily and um on

00:49:34.699 - 00:50:00.229

Friday on a Monday, apparently somebody was informed of young. All this is in retrospect. I didn't know that. And um Mr Gordon apparently was informed of the appointment of Mr Masterson on Monday. And Mr Gordon left town on Tuesday morning very early. He heard about it

00:50:00.239 - 00:50:20.989

on Monday night on um Wednesday morning. This is now one week after the telephone conversation with Mr Lovett, I had a telephone call from Mr Allen who wanted to see me and I had no inkling on what it was on Wednesday afternoon. Mr Allen came to

00:50:21.000 - 00:50:42.250

my office, Herbert Allen and um told me that Masterson had been appointed. What was your reaction? My reaction was uh one of shock and dismay. Um I told Mr Allen that, um I, at first I didn't understand that he was appointed. At first I thought he

00:50:42.260 - 00:51:00.639

was asking my opinion about mastery, which I was, I'm perfectly honest to repeat. I think that um um I did not think you would make a good president, too weak person. He told you to be too weak. But what concerned me most was that he left

00:51:00.649 - 00:51:22.620

such enormous antagonism in the humanities uh behind that uh the canvas would be in an uproar if Mr Masterson, if the appointments were carried out. And it was then that Mr uh Allen said to me, uh this is, I think I repeat and verbatim, this is

00:51:22.629 - 00:51:38.350

beyond negotiations. The man has been appointed, we cannot go back on it. And this is when it dawned on me what had happened. And I said, uh Mr Allen, I can only warn you of what is going to happen here. I mean, I think I know

00:51:38.360 - 00:51:57.889

the faculty reaction well enough, this is going to be quite catastrophic. He said, oh, you're just so pessimistic because you scientists don't want the human humanist there, which of course, I think is ridiculous. And um so, um uh this was a very pleasant conversation otherwise with

00:51:57.899 - 00:52:15.040

Mr Allen, but I tried to impress on him that he better get together with the board on this and try to reconsider. And he said it was not possible to reconsider. Um, on, uh, we then agreed that he would present this thing before my committee on

00:52:15.159 - 00:52:37.780

the following day. On Thursday. On Thursday morning, I talked to Mr Allen uh on the telephone and um impressed on him again, what I thought about the appointment and uh I said, I'm not sure how strong I was. He said you were plenty strong and I

00:52:37.790 - 00:53:00.070

said, well, uh I was not strong enough on, um I then picked up the telephone and called Mr Teague and tried to apprise him of the situation. What would happen if, but I will be honest with you, I did not anticipate the size of the or

00:53:00.080 - 00:53:19.520

rather the, the real uh volume of reaction myself. I mean, I thought that would be great. I'm happy to all this, but I did not expect that there would be a completely united front. I had not, not really imagined that even in my wildest dreams, but

00:53:19.530 - 00:53:39.489

um I certainly tried to advise the board that this was a very, very unsound decision in every respect and it was not fair to Mr Masterson on Thursday afternoon, Mr Teague and Mr Allen came before the committee and discuss the matter with the committee and um

00:53:40.770 - 00:54:02.250

the committee then subsequently, uh uh was informed and several members of the committee, but uh great this me about it. And then these people knew about it prior to this meeting. And prior to the, well, let me put it this way. There are two of the

00:54:02.260 - 00:54:20.304

people whom I had called and for an auto make the committee, uh make this committee appointment for the Thursday, whom I called on Wednesday night at their homes. Uh, two of them, This is almost in retrospect to using, uh, said to me front something must be

00:54:20.314 - 00:54:38.219

up. I said, yes. And he said, I said, I cannot talk about this. And I said, he said, but you sound terribly depressed. And I said, well, I am and, um, the conversation was almost verbatim like this in two cases. And, um, I, he, and they

00:54:38.229 - 00:55:07.739

said, uh, is it that bad? And I said worse? And, uh, whereupon he automatically said Masterson independently. Um, so is this, uh, she was Salzburg? And, yeah, Paul the Chapman did not feel personally as bad about me as, as Salzburg did. It must be that, uh,

00:55:07.949 - 00:55:25.100

that, that they both had some idea that medicine, uh, would appeal to the board that it, no, if it went, it went a little bit farther than that. Uh, we had, uh, jokingly said a number of times, um, that, um, uh, Masterson would be the ideal

00:55:25.110 - 00:55:38.229

candidate. Uh, but this was strictly, I mean, we, we laughed about it and it was sort of all over the campus as a matter of fact that, uh, now here is a man, he's looking for a job. He's a rice alarm. Um, he is a product

00:55:38.239 - 00:56:02.439

of the Houston family, uh, very appealing. He, um, was a dean and, um, uh, so all in all be just the perfect person, wouldn't it? And, um, sorry, kiddingly. And, um, that you see, there's a certain amount of interesting psychological feature in this, I had not

00:56:02.449 - 00:56:31.429

realized until after the mass thing. Really, how deep seated presently, the big, like A P and you must realize that master for all practical purposes was fired by Pitzer as dean. And this may have influenced the board to a certain degree in order to show, you

00:56:31.439 - 00:56:46.820

know, there's no doubt about it that this had something to do with it. This is, uh, it's very unfortunate but, but uh, it, it is true. I mean, the, um, the really the, the kind of, of, of the feeling they have a pit at this point

00:56:46.830 - 00:57:02.500

is just just, uh, I mean, really, but, and yet, of course, by and large, the faculty does not share this. As a matter of fact, I think if Mr Fitzer came back tomorrow, I think there would be a large contingent at the airport receiving him from

00:57:02.510 - 00:57:16.520

the faculty. Well, how do you account for this bitterness on the part of the board against pits? Oh, well, um, now Pittser is not an easy man, mind you to, to deal with in, in many ways because he's a very strong person, extremely strong person. And

00:57:16.530 - 00:57:34.010

he ran his university and just informed the board of those things, he felt like informing the board. He did essentially infringe on what the board considers its prerogatives, you know, but Pitza fell, they were the prerogatives of the president of the university. And um in the

00:57:34.020 - 00:57:57.989

second place, of course, pizza was, had ideas of making this university a place that people would look to for generations to come. And, uh, this needs money and he was quite, he was not good at money raising himself except with the government. He was excellent there

00:57:58.000 - 00:58:14.909

but not among private sources. He was simply not the kind of, of boy that, that, um, people here in, in Texas appreciate really he was to aloof as a person. Probably he was not really a hail fellow well met. Uh, it was just not his nature.

00:58:15.469 - 00:58:37.199

Um, he was not too imposing a public speaker putting it mildly. Um, but he was, um, he was extremely, um, well, very, very quick. I mean, one of the brightest, most brilliant individuals I've ever met in my life. Um, and, uh, he, uh, Lord knows I

00:58:37.209 - 00:58:55.350

worked very closely with him for years, um, unbelievably. So which of course, always caused among these somewhat slower board members, certainly some form of unease uneasiness, you know, understandably he did introduce this uneasiness and many, many people and then of course, last, not least, you know,

00:58:55.360 - 00:59:13.419

the ultimate insult that he up and walks off, you know, and, uh, sort of leaves us in the lurch, so to speak, you know, and this is, um, so they feel a little bit like velvet lovers or something like that, you know, all, all the things,

00:59:13.429 - 00:59:39.449

they all, they all, all these things, all their pent up, um, um, dislike coming very clearly to the, to the fore. Now, this is really right. Uh When um Herbert Allen uh told you first told you about the announcement, uh and uh realized your dismay, how

00:59:39.459 - 00:59:54.360

did he justify the decision or did he attempt to, we didn't have time to consult anybody. This is quite different from what Mr Lovett tells. It's very interesting little bit load though. It lo it says we didn't want to consult the faculty because we felt we

00:59:54.370 - 01:00:10.590

only had to consult the faculty uh seek the advice of the faculty and people whom we did not know, but Masterson, we knew so we didn't need any advice. Oh, they're quite different. There are two different stories there. One says we didn't have time and the

01:00:10.600 - 01:00:31.620

other one says we didn't want it. Now take your pick. Which do you, which do you pick? Oh Mr Lovett, of course, is right? Nonsensitive. That time, the speedometer is right. There's no question about it. Do you think Mr uh Lovett uh might have meant by

01:00:31.629 - 01:00:48.479

that also that, uh, that he knew that Masterson would not be a committee. Is, is that kind of the feeling or is it that it never came out? It never came out? Mr Lo attitude has been all along, you know, it doesn't matter, he's very outspoken

01:00:48.489 - 01:01:05.489

about this. It does not matter what the company thinks about him, what the faculty thinks about the man. There's no concern doesn't make good, doesn't? He just doesn't make no, no, no, no, he's, he's completely, yeah, when you mentioned a while ago, uh some of the

01:01:05.500 - 01:01:18.850

travel night view on education of the some members of the board did you have in mind either tea or Ellen or me or love? But the army has never come out to me, at least about what he thinks is proper education. I will say this a

01:01:18.860 - 01:01:32.879

few times that I had a chance to talk to him. I got the impression that he was a good bit more. You might be more open minded about this subject, but there's no doubt about it that Mr uh Lovett and Mr Teague, the other two who

01:01:32.889 - 01:01:50.590

have sort of gone on record on what they think about it. Um I have difficulty fitting into this century. There's no doubt about it. Yeah. Are they aware? I mean, the role of the students is, is uh um for example, I mean that I give you

01:01:50.600 - 01:02:13.969

one code here. Uh when we talked about um student unrest. Mr Teague said to me in the presence of Mr Lovett. That's all right. That's fine. The minute we have a serious student unrest, we close all the gates of the university, we can pinpoint then those

01:02:13.979 - 01:02:32.620

who are responsible for it, faculty and students suspend those and we are rid of the problem once and forever. Uh This is so naive, you can't even discuss it. It fatigues. Yes. But then Mr President was the lung. So apparently this is absolutely in, in line

01:02:33.679 - 01:02:52.419

and let it offer any. Uh, no, I was just looking forward to it, you know, something of that sort in order to get rid of the problem once and forever, which is, of course, it is just so naive that, that, that, that you can't even discuss

01:02:52.429 - 01:03:18.090

it. Well, let's see, we left off, um, at the meeting of the, um, of the faculty committee, uh after Mr Allen made his announcement who, uh who was most vocal in the, in their response. Do, do any reactions come out in your mind or, or were,

01:03:18.100 - 01:03:39.199

were extremely concerned? Um And uh then Mr Saltzburg Mr Remlinger, uh were extremely concerned. Yes. How did Mr Allen seem to react to, uh, to their words? Well, very nice. I mean, Mr Allen, uh sort of laughed it off and said, well, you just have to

01:03:39.209 - 01:03:50.350

live with this, you know, maybe we, maybe we didn't do it the right way and all that but I'm sorry, there wasn't any time and now we just have to live with it. It's gonna help and by God, you know, and so on and so forth

01:03:50.360 - 01:04:10.290

really well. And, uh, you know, and, um, which is the only thing we could do. I mean, I think with that position very much so, um, but that was his approach and, uh, we've then settle too. You tell it to the faculty. We won't. And he

01:04:10.300 - 01:04:30.620

said, ok, you'll do that on Saturday. That was Thursday afternoon. However, on Friday morning I from them and I like to go on record that at this point that I thanked me for the committee for the night with the committee and the meeting was conducted and

01:04:30.629 - 01:04:58.790

so on and provide. But it went considering the difficulty of the situation rather well and so on to the, to the right. But that apparently the loot had developed the new person coming from 10 of two, um, about not with his appointment. And, um, that, um

01:04:59.669 - 01:05:20.679

I did, um, and therefore you would think it would be wise to have the, that everything that could possibly be the one on Friday that I think that was Friday the 23rd of February. And um, on that point, uh I tried to learn bitter and probably

01:05:21.850 - 01:05:39.850

a little bit but a little bit difficult in one word. But because you have no mechanism by which the thought of it could be called the only mechanism we have is the faculty council called Pat. But the faculty can only be called by the president of

01:05:39.860 - 01:06:00.629

Pathy Council, which is a was at that time, boy who was somewhere between Boston and Washington. Um So um I took it upon myself and trying to look in the meanwhile, I simply called the faculty meeting by passing word around officially in all departments that there

01:06:00.639 - 01:06:32.199

would be a meeting and an important meeting. At this time, the radio was coming out with some information already on Friday noon approximately did it. But the radio came out with some sense of and uh uh Benin, but um was supposed to be precluded by meeting

01:06:32.209 - 01:06:56.159

with the student that I did half an hour earlier in the Bayside building which it was and boom. Um I did mention to Mr Allen and Mr Teague who were there that I would probably be called upon to relate what the function of the committee was.

01:06:57.120 - 01:07:13.689

And then I would simply say what in the connection had been. And I simply would say none because I would have to call the crew. They said, well, that's all you can do. And I said, I, I understand but he knew that this was coming. And

01:07:13.699 - 01:07:33.610

um then um in the early afternoon, I finally got hold of Gordon who because of bad weather could not land in Houston that had been transferred, his plane had been transferred to Corpus Christi and he called from Corpus Christi. And Gordon said, then that the faculty

01:07:34.000 - 01:07:59.929

by consent was all right. And uh uh I should ask Mr Cro Eyes to be chairman of the meeting c has agreed to that. And then the rest of it, of course, is well known. I do the meeting here. I have to um down in the

01:07:59.979 - 01:08:35.189

mouth and uh uh OK, what, what happened after that? But um um let me tell you one thing you want to go to the, uh, that, that might be quite, uh, the record. I don't know whether you're willing to part on the cop but you have

01:08:35.759 - 01:09:32.419

a photo. Um, well, um, but, uh, I remember and, uh, I, if I'm like that because, um, you know, um, the opened, it opened the new, um, I made the appointment of, there was then a, um, with quite some small that, um, that, uh, to come

01:09:32.430 - 01:09:54.709

up and at times on the point of the committee had been, I find that the committee had not been compounded in connecting with that, uh, of time was I believe or not. There was nobody's home life and the life. Um, and, um, I was one of

01:09:54.720 - 01:10:14.240

them and I think, no, might not. And, um, then, uh, the, um, make the Allen cut a few more words. I mean, the, like the, um, I mean, I don't know that I, like, I made it, we made it, we have it in a poor way

01:10:14.250 - 01:10:35.370

I'm tired and, uh, and then the war got up and, uh, we had a petition fine by 61 people or something like that. I forgot the exact number, the, the of that, which was done of the scientific, the most and, uh, which was done and the

01:10:35.379 - 01:10:50.339

most in the sense they can put up to part one of them, the center of the bone and the amount is, they complete it. And the second they will consider with the pump and both of those have to pass by a line, the doctor. You know

01:10:50.450 - 01:11:12.089

what I mean? I really know the f uh having quite a high level of emotion, I little bit difficult, but during that week, I didn't sleep much. I, so, you know, and uh you like to involve them, you probably know it's possibly more significant almost than

01:11:12.100 - 01:11:32.439

the we the students have met at the same time, they decided to have a meeting on Saturday morning following day, all included t put it at the time that they would be back to night. And um then I was a press conference scheduled for noon on

01:11:32.459 - 01:12:03.259

Saturday, uh which to close, then which man would be introduced to the pain, my arm to the play on good morning. Um that um have this demonstration or in the words of Mr, um is that the kind of thing and um invited by the family? Um

01:12:04.120 - 01:12:32.490

You do. Um So um anyway about a lot. I, I, hopefully my mom happy a little life with, with him, you know, but not. Um, and to them on Saturday was that rather prolonged interview with Mr to see anybody in the family? Because, you know, I'm

01:12:32.500 - 01:12:44.609

appointed, I have nothing. I only have to answer to the board. I don't have to answer to the phone because I didn't, I, I think that we were very dumb on his part because I still think that he could have played quite a few back on

01:12:44.729 - 01:13:08.819

the number. Um And, um, then of course, you have interviewed students who were on this, in this meeting, which lasted until the wee hours in the meanwhile, there was a telephone, I got a telephone call from Bill Gordon, uh who am my destination and all that

01:13:08.870 - 01:13:29.770

one of the most found his character, you know, that, that man was obviously considered himself obviously as a possible candidate for the job and, uh, and have been considered alcohol. Um, and he gave a thought at this moment because we call them, you on what to

01:13:29.779 - 01:13:48.620

do next. We called them simply some friends. I was included in that. And we met, I don't know if you have a, um, you like my love at all on Sunday at 40? No, not as yet. Well, you probably get, uh, people like that, that coin

01:13:50.859 - 01:14:17.419

that women did that hold up, that hold up before you leave it forever. I feel like this if you don't feel it got it. So, um, FB and, um, will do and so on. They were all in and do baker. You, you points that were made,

01:14:17.700 - 01:14:47.740

I guess c the eye, um, everybody is coming up in different direction. Mhm. At that time I one new upon the open and was coming the Honolulu and 01 stem, I think I need the two by the line. You do. Um, what could we do in

01:14:47.750 - 01:15:16.310

our central life in any form, any kind of whenever I could. And now to become leader D beer suggest that. But I take over this thing and I, except that I would not be averse to doing it, but that I felt if they going to be

01:15:17.450 - 01:15:33.120

and here's I understanding, to my taste wise, it would be better because there, if at the point in time you have the position in the university that I do not have. But if he declined and I would fully understand if he did, then I would do

01:15:33.129 - 01:15:54.290

it. And, um, Gordon said that under the conditions, the only thing he could do is stand up and be counted that he would do it. And as a result of it, you ordered, then it's two that box. Mhm. Which of course cost them you, uh, if

01:15:54.299 - 01:16:07.629

you recall who, uh, who made the first position was he the first one that came up with the idea that they could have. In fact, both of them. Not with mine, I believe, I think, yes. Um I, I sent this for the following reason that I

01:16:07.640 - 01:16:24.359

said we are sitting here and we are saying that we are opposed to master. There's no doubt about it that we who are sitting here are opposed to Mastic. But how does the university really feel about it? I think, I think I know, but I cannot

01:16:24.370 - 01:16:43.330

prove it. And the only way, the only chance we had was to get absolute concrete evidence of it, we then discussed for some time how the vote should be taken. And you see, the important point was the masters had met and sent Street Fulton over to

01:16:43.339 - 01:17:05.700

us who joined us at this meeting and Street Fulton, um but was to get in touch with Masterson and tell him the outcome of the vote on Monday morning, the vote was taken. And uh I called Gordon as an afterthought on Monday morning early and said,

01:17:05.709 - 01:17:46.359

let's not publicize the vote. I li step down and, you know, don't know the outcome if you have in mind. Uh that uh uh later on, I think that what I want, but I think that put me behind everybody's mind, you know, and the, and that

01:17:46.370 - 01:18:06.709

did it literally on his, yeah, he didn't want to get here and have a four day weekend. Well, uh Sunday, so that uh that he was beginning to uh to waken when he left here and he was uh that was on Sunday morning. Um, you see,

01:18:06.770 - 01:18:28.339

I got a phone call at um, approximately 2 a.m. on Sunday morning. Mhm. And um the problem was going all the time anyway at home and uh at 2 a.m. and um I was told by one of the students who had been present at this meeting

01:18:28.350 - 01:18:47.520

that the there was that Masterson had agreed to a meeting with the committee for the next morning and then I said, be prepared to be called for it on Sunday morning. This call never came. You should get the details of the Sunday morning was close and

01:18:47.569 - 01:19:11.930

very Thalberg because it was Salzburg who was in touch with Mrs Masterson during that period. Mhm. And you can tell me the details about it, how it came about. But then on Sunday morning, I heard from about that uh meth had left without having anything. Mhm.

01:19:13.040 - 01:19:33.359

Did you an education and uh and come to? No, no, no, not at this point. No. Uh but certainly the student said very clearly that by uh one o'clock in the morning, the man was uh physically exhausted if you not very weak. And I mean, to

01:19:33.370 - 01:19:53.979

be great draw, you know that he would never be in good. I didn't realize he was physically. Uh he's a coward. I mean, he's just plain physical. He uh he shakes all over and you confront him with it. It all happened the high level of it,

01:19:58.560 - 01:20:22.080

you know, the man out I can pop off because you have to have a skin but I would never do. I don't know anything about it. We let the um it me and press conference with the students uh on uh Saturday, I was invited but it

01:20:22.089 - 01:20:43.640

did not go because I felt that if I were present that I would put a certain stamp on for go on at the time. No, I did not go. I declined. Were you in touch with, um, not me at all? It or, uh, no, not me,

01:20:43.859 - 01:21:02.580

did not, uh, go to contact the committee made it very clear that he could learn about it except when he finally retired very early in the morning hours on Sunday, one o'clock or whatever it was that he would need. But there. Mhm. As far as, you

01:21:02.589 - 01:21:18.450

know, we didn't make any attempt or whatever, we think that we're gonna really need to discuss informally with any of the, uh, of the, of the, a matter of fact, I understand and, uh, the point about the body is only responsible to the body that I

01:21:18.470 - 01:21:32.549

would not have to discuss it with anyone. Um, how, man? Well, I mean, I give you another two. Definitely. We never had MA N MA before and that one was very sympathetic to because he got a boy and that he was in the back of anything.

01:21:33.779 - 01:21:49.689

I don't know. Have you talked to that? Well, let you know about it and that what changed his mind and called me up on Saturday, I believe it was and said I have a, you can count on me because I met the man and I know

01:21:49.700 - 01:22:10.020

that he would be a terrible crime and I would not, I never met them before, but I did get in touch with them. I feel like you knocked it down. So that's the kind of help. But they might, and then how do you think we could

01:22:10.029 - 01:22:24.580

have handled that press contact, uh, on Saturday? From what you've heard of it? I haven't heard enough. A but, but you said, uh, first of all, it was very unwise of him to stand there and say I'm simply here to, to carry out the audit of

01:22:24.589 - 01:22:44.390

the bullet. That was a big mistake. You shouldn't have said something to that effect at all, you know. Um, and the PSY said to me, I'm not, you know. And, uh, so he, uh, well, quite hopefully, I mean, the first thing and this is something which

01:22:44.399 - 01:23:03.700

I am not sure is correct. Um, I am a fan but I'm hiding that the editor of Kowl called up in Chattanooga and talked about this and asked him, did you know that the committee was not? And the title of it, I mean, they were not

01:23:03.709 - 01:23:28.080

aware of your appointment. You have had it. No, now, I don't know how cool it perfect, but no, man in his right mind could take a job under those conditions. Is it possible if he could find out only two hours before freaking it out? I mean,

01:23:28.089 - 01:23:50.609

how do, um, how does the faculty feel about my appointment? That's the day I have to work with the child. And if you had asked that of the board, how do you think they would have asked it? I, it may have, may have, I'm sure it

01:23:50.620 - 01:24:06.350

occurred to him because meth is not stupid. A very intelligent person. Um um, he may have felt correct or incorrect and if he raised this question that he would be considered too much of a faculty then and therefore not acceptable and he was dying to get

01:24:06.359 - 01:24:22.390

the job. Obviously, do you think that the board members would have thought or, or do you suppose that Masterson could have phrased his question in such a way that the board would have interpreted as meaning that yes, we had a uh uh we accepted the uh

01:24:22.490 - 01:24:41.890

the nominees from the uh faculty student committee indicating that uh they had a part in the uh decision. Well, I'm, I'm not saying this correctly. What I'm wondering is if the, if you think there's any possibility that the board members uh interpreted uh their receipt or

01:24:41.899 - 01:24:59.669

five names from the committee as constituting complications and it letters in it construed in this way. Of course, the letter was absolutely clear that this was not, it because we knew that it could be construed in this fashion beforehand and wrote the letter very, very carefully.

01:24:59.979 - 01:25:29.859

But he said, I wrote the letter out under my signature. Yes, but the letter was very clearly written, emphasizing the, the uh um provision and tentative nature of this suggestion. So as anything but a final um a real uh firm advice to the mor in any

01:25:29.870 - 01:25:59.240

way, it was blown up subsequently as such as you pointed out. But they had no basis for deleting that uh at any time they shouldn't if they can read. All right, it was quite intentionally written this way by all of us in agreement. What may I

01:25:59.279 - 01:26:24.890

interest in your um comments uh about Doctor Grason? Uh to what extent do you think that uh your uh reaction to this situation influenced other people? Hi, the same. I uh you like to consider myself uh uh one fa copy number. Um I have been a

01:26:24.970 - 01:26:48.240

bit close to the phone copy. Um I do not think that I'm, I'd call a faculty leader anyway, I do think however, that uh I can estimate fairly well the feelings of the faculty. If anything, I, I estimated the feelings concerning Masterson correctly, although not, not

01:26:48.250 - 01:27:05.660

the extent of it. The m the I uh I, I, on the basis of what I've heard, I would put you down as a faculty leader because uh of the, of your articulate. Uh uh well, I don't know, I, I it's difficult to say, I mean,

01:27:05.669 - 01:27:31.049

difficult to judge. I mean, I'm sure I have been elected to a number of offices here and uh um take on, I'm thinking whether it could have been hard to good th thing you got to be done. Thank you about that. Um Yeah, 15 years. I

01:27:31.060 - 01:27:55.759

have not like university and I with the house, you know, and uh what very of you p and I like the very, very fascinating experience I would admit to anything in the world. And I want to make it clear that I did not seek administrative offices

01:27:55.770 - 01:28:11.790

and resign my position at the time. Uh because the pizza was very gracious about it incidentally and uh wanted to keep me on and kept me on for an additional year. And when I simply, when I then finally said, ok, I'm going on leave in order

01:28:11.799 - 01:28:29.250

to make it clear even then he was very flatteringly. So asked me a place to stay on and I just could not do it because I felt that when you are in a university, then your primary function ought to be in my opinion, at least teaching

01:28:29.259 - 01:28:52.299

and research and, um, education in other words. And, um, that I just simply didn't feel like, like spending all my time and then doing administrative work that I do don't like it that much. And I did my all because at the result, but I did get

01:28:52.310 - 01:29:12.819

to know an awful lot of people at the university. They got to know me. It's like, cool and you are concerned after 15 years, you're concerned with the university with the we of university actually at UC. How are, you know, and, um I, you have a

01:29:12.830 - 01:29:29.740

lot of time and effort invested to you just very practically you don't like to see it to go to pot. Um, I am very much concerned at the moment with the kind of morale as Mr Vandever, very eloquently expressed the other day before the faculty, I

01:29:29.750 - 01:29:51.160

think he did an excellent job of expressing it really um superb and um saying uh that the morale is low and uh something that had to be said, but I'm afraid that the morale is going to be possibly even lower this fall if we don't watch

01:29:51.169 - 01:30:14.520

out because we are um for some reason or another, a university. I'm, I'm sorry to say is just simply not a completely democratic body. Um some form of very firm leadership is required and although this is a very poor way of putting it the way I'm

01:30:14.529 - 01:30:33.609

going to say it, the average faculty member feels that he needs a strong man there um to protect them from the board, uh which is very strange, but you see it does come out under conditions right now, right? This, this last week, uh when this NSF

01:30:33.620 - 01:30:55.850

grant uh was it turned out that the NSF Grant was canceled or rather not extended uh correctly. And lots of people derived their student support, summer salaries, even academic salaries from this grant. And yet this is a financial matter. Therefore, it is up to the board

01:30:55.859 - 01:31:12.390

to do something about it. Now, the little faculty member who suddenly says, my God, my student didn't get paid this week, they got paid finally, but I'm in a delay, um doesn't get paid this week. What am I going to do? What's that terrible board doing

01:31:12.399 - 01:31:25.979

now? It isn't really the board that's doing it. But this the feeling that is there and he would feel much more comfortable if uh he had not an acting president, but a president with a capital p standing there and whom he had the confidence that he

01:31:25.990 - 01:31:46.069

will, oh, he's going to straighten things out for me because it's quite obvious not all of us can talk to the board or should for that matter. So therefore, the president is very much the representative of the faculty to the board. If the university is to

01:31:46.080 - 01:32:03.250

succeed. Admittedly, there's only one aspect of it, but it's a very, very important one. And the same is true of the students. I mean, the idea, for example of, of uh um so there are a few students that are hot heads and, and, and may do

01:32:03.259 - 01:32:18.810

something stupid. Does that mean that they uh the court board will have its way and, and, and close the gates and, and send in Herman short and, and his uh minions, I mean, this is, uh, this is in the minds of students, maybe incorrectly, maybe it

01:32:18.819 - 01:32:32.390

shouldn't be there. Maybe there's no reason in the world for being, for this being in their minds, but it is, the reality is it is there and you have to cope with it. And the only way you can is by having a president who is, uh

01:32:33.310 - 01:32:53.250

uh who at least give us the impression that the uh he will um stand up for his faculty and for his students in front of all sorts of outside pressures and the face of all to and pressures. That's all. And that of course, is where, where

01:32:53.259 - 01:33:17.250

we um and it's unlikely that we won't have a pregnant. Um And this is what makes a quasi position of any acting president extremely difficult. He's making commitments for a man who doesn't even know and he can't make it to a certain degree. Huh? I will

01:33:17.259 - 01:33:36.270

say that uh Mr Vander even taking the job was, was from his personal point of view, really almost foolhardy. I mean, he knew that. But uh but you see, then there are, you feel this, of course, in the university at the present time, there are all

01:33:36.279 - 01:33:54.689

sorts of people obviously jockeying for this position, a present and the way they jockey for it is just that they come out with great announcements, you know, that they think maybe correctly, you know, will appeal to the board and their thinking, you know, that doesn't exactly

01:33:54.700 - 01:34:20.990

go over too well with the faculty and lots of people in the faculty, either there's great unhappiness over that. So all of this, of course affects the morale and, and uh so on back to this uh this idea of uh of opinion um mobilization, who would

01:34:21.000 - 01:34:40.290

you set down as being among the most effective uh leaders in this respect among students or faculty or uh at the rice at rice here at this time during this time during his four day weekend. Well, Scarron, of course, Warren Scarron was without any doubt. I

01:34:40.299 - 01:35:00.830

mean, he just stands out like uh I don't know what and I was take a pink to see him get this award at that uh uh commencement time. Um We will be hard pressed for finding somebody to replace him in this difficult time because he did

01:35:00.839 - 01:35:28.819

rally the moderate student body around him and was very successful in doing so a tremendous amount of leadership. Um But he's gone now and this is going to be another reason for, for uh morale problem because you see um the uh Lee Horstman who is a

01:35:28.830 - 01:35:48.830

very fine fellow and his heart is absolutely in the right spot and everything else. But he does not have this charisma that uh I wasn't scared. Yeah, would have a tougher time, you know, then of course, the fact that Paul Pfeiffer, who is the first line

01:35:48.839 - 01:36:06.669

of defense in case of any kind of unrest or unpleasantness is gone from that position of Dean of Students. It's another problem. I mean, all this adds up, you know, to, to, uh, um, to somewhat, I would say, in my opinion, somewhat pessimistic picture for the

01:36:06.680 - 01:36:32.189

next year. I hope I'm wrong. I really sincerely hope so and I'll do everything in the world to see that I'm wrong. But uh observing uh Warren Scarin in this uh in this situation, uh how, how would you uh account for uh for his attitude and

01:36:32.200 - 01:36:51.339

outlook uh on this situation? Uh Who do you think influenced him? I don't think anybody influences Warren Scarin. I know well enough for that, uh Warren Scarron felt probably somewhat the same way I did. This is presumptuous on my part. But uh I still think I'm

01:36:51.350 - 01:37:16.100

right there to a great extent. I was motivated whatever I did by what I thought the faculty felt, I think I was by and large, right? In that respect, I think Warren Scarin did what he thought the student body felt or wanted uh done so to

01:37:16.109 - 01:37:44.740

speak. And uh in this process since 80% 90% of the student body are moderates. Uh he represented the moderates in the case, but with a firm feeling of cohesion of the student body, almost like almost monolithic which I have never seen before at any place. And

01:37:44.750 - 01:38:01.310

that And um so he was probably motivated by that more than anything else. I know there have been, uh of course, if you do talk to some of the more people in the community, uh the idea is simply uh oh, well, a couple of faculty members

01:38:01.319 - 01:38:15.345

got together with scarring and put him up to it or something of that sort. And this is simply not true, the person who was, was quite close to scar, but I'm sure did not have any influence in that respect on him. On the faculty closest to

01:38:15.354 - 01:38:33.430

him was Ron S. You see, but I don't think that uh he uh really sort of took counsel with him at this time or so, I just don't believe it. I mean, this is just the point. Scarron is a leader. He's not, I mean, he, he

01:38:33.439 - 01:38:55.080

does know what his people who elected him want and does, it doesn't flinch, he's articulate, but he also takes the responsibility and provides the authority. I mean, he really, he's gonna go place, there's no doubt about it. In other words, this is the kind of leadership

01:38:55.089 - 01:39:07.529

that is very aware of his constituents and articulate for those who are not concerned. That's the only kind of leadership there is, you know, if you're not aware of your constituency, then you are not a leader, you might be a dictator but not, not a leader.

01:39:07.680 - 01:39:29.149

You won't last long. Certainly not in a, in a free uh society in any form in your own mind? Uh Can, is there any particular point you can uh uh indicate uh at which time your goal, um your personal hopes were to uh effect a resignation

01:39:29.160 - 01:39:42.589

on the part of Masterson rather than a reversal on the part of the board or reconsider we knew very well that the board would not reverse. This was absolutely clear. There was, there was no question about anybody's mind. The only hope was to get Masterson to

01:39:42.600 - 01:40:02.379

resign. And even that hope was pretty slim. So, and it could only consist in, uh, in some evidence of a very large, deep and widespread. Uh, now you see one point was made in, in the minds of many people because it's a very easy. What is

01:40:02.390 - 01:40:14.319

your, what is your weapon? What do you have? If something goes wrong with the university, something you don't like? Really? Basically you don't like what is your weapon? Well, the only weapon you have is to resign and go somewhere else and then with a bit of,

01:40:14.330 - 01:40:34.629

of, um, well, presumption again, you feel that your departure is worsening the situation of the university. You know, this is sort of the thought behind. Um, and, uh, we all like to think of these terms. Well, one of the first things I did on Monday and,

01:40:34.729 - 01:40:53.589

uh, which was a very gloomy Monday because, uh, that was when no word from Chattanooga, um, the vote had been taken was quite obvious which way the vote went. I mean, the extent of it was difficult to say, but it certainly was quite obvious. Um, all

01:40:53.600 - 01:41:06.720

this happened on Monday and there were lots of people saying, well, if Masterson comes and the probability at that moment seemed to be 90% or something like that, that he would come, all we can do is resign. I'm pretty sure, for example, my life would have

01:41:06.729 - 01:41:23.839

been very miserable. Masterson, I'm convinced of that. Um, and there are lots of other people who were in the same, same situation, particularly in the humanities, of course. And I got together with some of my colleagues and sort of tried to say my first reaction was

01:41:23.850 - 01:41:42.180

also, well, I have to look for a job elsewhere, you know, but then I figured no, this would be shocking, some form of duty. It would be just chickening out, you know, and I intended to change my mind. I said I want to stay at least

01:41:42.189 - 01:42:02.259

for a year after this. And if he does not behave, I'll make life as miserable as I can for him. You know, if he behaves I'm happy, you know, I have my doubts that he would, I knew him too well for that. Um, but, um, that

01:42:02.270 - 01:42:18.640

was my, my idea about it and I tried to convince other senior professors of the same, same thing and I do believe uh this probably would have been the right thing to do. And you see, right now I've been talking to people who are dismayed, discouraged

01:42:18.649 - 01:42:33.450

and so on. And I'm trying to say, well, at least wait until the new, we have a new president then make up your mind, you know. But wait a little bit, maybe things aren't that bad. Maybe they are. Maybe I'm, I think next year is gonna

01:42:33.459 - 01:42:53.859

be rough. But after this we might, ok, well, if the next year's rough, it might be a lesson to the board in a sense that they will find a strong man who, who's acceptable to all sides and, and uh relegate their own uh activities to money

01:42:53.870 - 01:43:13.109

raising, at least to running the university if that's possible, keeping it safe from student movements and things of that sort. I think none of their business is too because the university cannot take care of it. That's another story, you know, but so far our record has

01:43:13.120 - 01:43:36.990

been touched. Wood has been superb. So why, why tamper with it? See, there's always one thing when I speak who spoke several times earlier in this conversation about indirect pressure off the board. This is completely unintended by the board here, but there are people in position

01:43:37.000 - 01:44:04.850

of authority here at rise who think that certain of their actions would please the board. It doesn't mean that Mr Lovett picked up the telephone saying do this. He doesn't have to, you say? Mhm. And that's, of course, thereby the very conservative stand of the board

01:44:04.859 - 01:44:28.509

is finds its way into the operation of the university. Although the board doesn't have to lift a single finger that again is only the only way to do it is a person who stands between the board and the faculty and uh and the student body and

01:44:28.520 - 01:44:47.169

who really has the reins, holds the reins and then can be trusted to hold these reins in such a fashion that he will do what he thinks is right and not what he thinks that somebody else thinks is right. You know, that's the only way because

01:44:47.180 - 01:44:59.390

otherwise he's gonna be a football between two sides. So this is probably what has happened to a great extent, both on the side of the boards on one hand and side of the students, on the other hand, in some of the universities and has, for example,

01:44:59.399 - 01:45:16.209

it's in Cornell undoubtedly has uh contributed largely to the uh sad situation there. President simply there felt that, uh he leaned over too far to the student side. I mean, he did not do what he thought completely was right. But he thought what the students would

01:45:16.220 - 01:45:36.729

think was right. It does take a very strong will to be able to buffer both sides and yet to, for me to stay on a, a great pa is doing a good job at Stanford. What I I can see, I'm not surprised. Really. Well, doctor do,

01:45:36.899 - 01:45:46.339

you've been at it for some time here now. And there may be uh questions coming up later on that we wanna talk to you again later on in the summer. Will there be any big blocks of time that you'll be out of town? Most of August,

01:45:46.350 - 01:46:00.689

most of August, you'll be back when school starts in September. Um I didn't mean to close this interview uh, too quickly. Was there anything else that you had to uh say right now? Too much already? Is it? No, I it's, it's been extremely helpful and you've

01:46:00.700 - 01:46:08.430

provided some insights which have not, have not been provided before. Very good. I very much appreciate you coming in and we'll talk to you later. Thank you very much.