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My name is Nori Guthrie from the Woodson Research Center, Fond and Library Rice University. I'm interviewing Franci Files, Gerard and Lacy Moore. Today is September 8th 2017. This is part of the Houston Folk Music archive, oral history project. Could you take turns and tell me about

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your early life and what drew you to music you first? Ok. I'll start my early life. I grew up in mid west Houston. Um And I actually what drew me to music. I always loved music. I drove my family crazy playing the record player. I just,

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they gave me piano lessons at age five. I mean, this girl loves the music and I fell in love with Peter go and met him in my church group as teenagers. And he really introduced me to the mantras and the music scene. He through him, he

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gave me the avenue into the music world that I really sought to be in. That's my story, your story. My family helped settle Houston from an old Houston family. So they started to take me to the symphony when I was four years old. If I was

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good, I got to go backstage and shake the first file in his hand. Mr gosh, Peter was his son. I've known him since junior high. He and Francy really introduced me to the music scene as I was finishing up college and spending more time in Houston

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and they took me to the clubs, all quarters and mountain. I met everyone that later became my close friends here in the seventies through them. So how did you to, can you kind of describe like that? First time that you met? I met Lucy in sixth

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grade. Our parents put us together. They were church friends. We keep bringing up this church thing because that was an important part of our life and our upbringing. And we went to Sunday school together and we were gonna go to school together. I just moved to

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her neighborhood. And so we took their advice and we became friends and it just kind of worked out. Look at us here we are. It's years later and we're still friends. What I'll tell the dirt. You tell the dirt. I remember us meeting in Hunters Creek

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elementary school and we went into the ladies' room, we went to the bathroom and she taught me my first three word. She's making that. She's making that up. But I did teach her her first three words and we lived a mile apart from each other and

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we would ride our horses back and forth to each other's house and go to Memorial Park. And ride our horses. That was sort of growing up. That was junior high. That was three boys that we were getting there. Um What's, so you kind of talked a

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little bit about your first interactions with playing the piano and listening to the record player and with me going to the symphony. When, when did you kind of start becoming more of the part of the Houston music scene college? I was at UT uh Peter came

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back from the service, he was in the Marines and when he came back, he went like a magnet down to the Montrose. He met Guy Clark, he met Don Sanders, he met Bill and Cade and that's where, that's where it all started for me. Met Towns

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Van Zant K Clark. It, they, it just kept coming. Peter took us there and I was in, I was still in college. He was, he was out of the, he was a, he, he was out of the Marines. He went to the Marines. What's your story?

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I hadn't seen Francy for a few years in college. I was a little behind her in college. In my last year of college. I hooked back up with her in Houston. I was going to Stephen F. Austin about to graduate in forestry. Her dad took me

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to Washington DC to meet the chief of the forest Service. And there my forestry career was taken off whether I wanted it or not. I had it. And I hooked back up with Francy and Pete and started going to clubs here and Sand Mountain. And then

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I was here a year after I graduated, waiting for my forest Service commission to come in. So I, I lived the life. I embraced everyone I met. I was like a sponge. I soaked it up. I love the people. I love the words. I love the

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music. Was it too early for either of you to have gone to the jester? No, I didn't. Never, I never, I heard of the Jester but I never went to the jester. Uh, my first place was Sand Mountain. Ok. And uh let me, so I, I

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went there on dates but the first place I was really a part of was Sand Mountain. Ok. What was not too many people talk about? What was that like? Let me, it was just an old house. Um, and it had you, you kind of sat on

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the floor, they had pillows and blankies and comfy things. But I don't remember tables and chairs. You kind of just lounged me out on pillows and drank little coffee house drinks. This was, I was in high school. It didn't matter. We didn't drink anyway, but it

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was a coffee house in, in an old house somewhere and I wanna say the Montrose kind of area. Alabama don't really remember exactly. That's ok. Um Was it a place that was pretty popular to go to, you know, this was the sixties, what is popular looked

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like. You certainly didn't have to stand in line to get in. Ok. I will say that. And who, who did you see play there? I think I saw Don Sanders, but I'm, I can't even remember for sure. Like I said, it was long before I met

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him. He's a few years older than myself. I was in high school. Ok. Um, so you both hung around um Sand Mountain Coffee House around the same time around 1969 and the old quarter in the old quarter. Oh, I, I'll, I'll get to the old quarter

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after that. Um Could you talk about that experience? Like um like what the, what the building was like? The clientele, Mrs Carrick, other performers. Gosh, the building. I barely remember. I think it was, it was on Richmond or Alabama. A kind of a simple one story

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wood frame building. I remember a great mural inside the mural. The mural head, I think it was Towns Jerry Jeff Walker guy and maybe Mickey Newberry, who I never knew, but it was they, they were plastered on the wall, but I spent most of my time

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in the back room and there was a garage apartment above it. That Bill and Seal moved in and Peter lived there for a while too. If you lived in the apartment upstairs, you were responsible for hosting, you were the person who got up and emceed the

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shows and, uh, uh, everyone we knew, kind of just at some point it was a big honor as a singer songwriter to live upstairs and be the host. What was the back room like? You know, I think it was a couch and a chair. Maybe it

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wasn't much of anything. But I spent a lot of time back there and that's where I met Rob Smith and a lot of people, I don't know, we just kind of back rooms were where it was at and we didn't do anything in the back room.

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I mean, this was prior to drinking or smoking or any of those things. We just, well, we just missed it. We just hung out and I worked the door for Mrs and got close. I would drive her around some and I had my wedding there, not

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my wedding, but my reception, Peter and I were married in, uh, 1969 I think it was and we had a small church wedding but our reception was at, at, at Sam Mountain and our friends cooked the food and served it. It was kind of a community

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thing. What was Mrs Car? Like, like a mom. She was a mom but she was, she was everybody's mom and anyone that hung out or played there, she was their mom and who wasn't pleased with the old quarter and their reputation. Her son is a musician

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as well still is. I'm Sure, John Kerrick. Have you talked with him? Not in a long time, but occasionally I run into her. Ok. One time towns was playing a biker bar in downtown Houston and she wanted to go there and support him so he wouldn't

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go to the old quarter afterwards. So I drove her there. I'd never been to a biker bar. You know, I'm fresh meat right out of forestry school. You know, this is all new to me. So I go to this biker bar. They were actually very nice

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folks, you know, and she just pleaded with towns to come back to Sound Mountain with us and don't go to the Oak ho and live that life. I think that suggestion failed. I think we all went to the old corner. That's what I remember. So I

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didn't tell her I was hanging out at the also on off nights. How did the old quarter compare to Sand Mountain that day? They, they don't know. And I think what they had in common is that they like musicians. It was a good musicians could be

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a good job as a place to play. And the comparison went away after that. So I've heard before um the, the quarter was described as, as a darker kind of place. A little seedier, harder drugs, that kind of like that's the kind of scene that was

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more wrapped up. Yeah. Yeah. Um One, why did you guys like hanging out with the old court because the musicians were there. I went there with Peter with the music and, uh, that's where the, there was the place to play. They had live music. They had

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a stage, even though you had to tune to the air conditioner. It was kind of funky. Some of the tables were like sewing machine tables. It was funky, but it was a venue. And as a musician you are always looking for a venue, a place where

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you can play. And it certainly was that Dale and Rex offered that and down, we went, you know, do you guys have any stories about either of those venues? Oh, gosh. Yes, that you wanna share. Yes. No, maybe, uh, many memories, more memories of Dale's voice

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on stage saying bathrooms upstairs, pool tables upstairs, popcorn upstairs, everything was upstairs at the old quarter except the music and the music was downstairs. And so was the bar and he grew up on the roof and you could see the police station down below the police

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cars and Joy Llewellyn was always there. She was like a little Florence Nightingale and, uh, she had no vices. Everybody had vices. It was, we keep mentioning that there were a lot of this was, you know, this was the seventies, sixties. Anyway, there were vices going

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on at the oak quarter and Joy was just always there with the little first aid kit. She took care of everybody and, you know, joy, still takes care of everybody. She's a wonderful person. So, during the same period, 69 to 71 you both either lived with

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or spent time hanging out with Guy Clark and Susannah Talley later. Guy's wife and Towns Vans. Aunt. Um, what were they like at the time? Did they have an influence on you? Oh, gosh. What a magic time. They were magical. And they were, I got out

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sharing the house. Well, Peter and I actually lived in Stratford House with Guy and Susannah. And uh it was, gosh, what a special time. That was Susannah at that period in her life was really painting a lot. I would come home. I was teaching school which

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was kind of a challenge, teaching school by day and coming home and there's all these picking parties and guys writing songs and Susannah is painting these pictures and people would come over towns would come over, other people would come over would be, there would be jams

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going on at the, the, the kitchen table. I have so many memories of sitting at the kitchen table in that house and all the creativity that was around me. I have no memories of when we ate, who cooked or who did the dishes. I don't know

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that we, I don't know about that part. I can't remember that part. Um, I spent most of my time over there, Susannah and I really hit it off. She and Guy were just together. They were so in love. She had come down from Oklahoma City, had

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given up everything in her life and starting this new era. And I was sort of doing the same thing in my own way. So we talked a lot. We got the music. There is music, uh, in the dining room, there are Volkswagen parts in the front

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room. There is music in the kitchen. There are dishes stacked up as far as you can tell in the sink. And I, I was there a lot with Vince Bell. I was hanging a lot with Vince Bell and Eric Taylor and George Ensley. We spent a

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lot of time over there. I remember towns coming for the first time when guy wanted to introduce me. Maybe he thought, you know, I'd be a new date for him. It didn't work that way, but Towns was a lifelong friend and actually was a big brother

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to me until the day he died on that first visit. Towns had actually come to town because he had to go to court because he had driven drunk into the plate glass window of a bar down town and had gotten out and ordered a drink that

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would be towns and somehow got out of it. That would be towns to know towns to, to be with guy. Susannah was a real good way to get to meet towns because they were, they were buddies. All of those guys were buddies. And they were so

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that's, that was an era. It was an era. I remember towns visiting and Susanna wrote poetry, but she wanted to learn guitar. So in the upstairs bedroom closet, she would sequester herself and learned to play guitar and she learned putting Townes's words to music that she

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would play and then eventually became a hit songwriter of her own later on that's later. But we knew her mainly as a painter then, yeah, she spends a pretty short period of time here in Houston. It was a short period. I think it was four months

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that we lived with Guy and Susannah. But it was monumental. Is it that all? Yeah. Well, but it was monumental. We were young. Four months was a monumental time. It's different. And Francis sister was responsible for helping them get to go to L A. Yeah. She

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bought one of their paintings. She actually had money. She had a husband who was a stockbroker and they bought one of Susannah's paintings. It was very exciting at the time. Um So then Lisa, you then ended up relocating to Oregon to work for the forestry service.

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Um And later, Francy, Francy, you lived with her. What, what was that time like up in Oregon? Oregon is a beautiful place. I ran there that was after Peter and I split up and it was kind of hard to hang out at the old quarter when

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I wasn't Peter's wife. You know, I had a, a new identity to face, which was being me and me just jumped in the car and drove away and then, uh, ended up in Oregon where she was and Oregon is gorgeous and I think it was a

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very special time. It was never home. We were always meant to come back because we were kind of oddballs in Oregon. They don't, they're a little different than Texans. They're, they're kind of mellow, you know, they're, they treat us us better than those from California. Yeah,

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they like us and they thought we were cute face. It, we were young. I mean, I was living on a forestation in eastern Oregon. 100 miles from the nearest town. Francy comes and we go to Eugene and I work on a forest near Eugene. So to

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meet people, Francy had this house with the apple tree in the backyard. We would make apple pies and we would meet people and we would go visit and take apple pies and go visit and meet people. So you probably were in your mid to early twenties,

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early twenties? I was probably 22. Ok. Was it, was it kind of scary to go up to Oregon just to kind of drop life here after you don't already just kind of like lived here your whole life. No, we were just on an adventure. It wasn't

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scary. I didn't have any in, in those days. Gas was cheap and I would, I would fill up my, I little Volkswagen Square back for $5. I could cover amazing miles for $50. I could go across the country. I was fearless. No, I had no problems

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driving many hundreds of miles. Not a problem. Adventure. Takes your mind off anything that might not be right. So, I was always into that, you know, when in doubt, go on an adventure and things would be better. I never, I always had a hard time thinking

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of long term. I was in the present and I was doing what I was doing and I was trying to soak in all the knowledge and adventure. I could, I think you have it. We like adventure. So that's what we were doing. So around 72 73

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you both restarted your lives in Houston. Is that about right? I came back first and Vince Bell took me to Anderson Fair. I remember we had gone to Galveston for the afternoon, the surf was up and we were body surfing and I got picked upside down

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and sort of had a slight concussion and then that even he took me to Anderson Fair and they liked me and said, bring her back and I, I really never left. Um, I guess what was I gonna say? Um Were you, how were your lives kind

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of different? Coming back to Houston after being away or is it just kind of stepping right back into the same life. It's just the family. When I came, I would, came back nine months later than she did. I stayed on for a little while longer. But

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when I came back, she took me straight to Anderson. I've got to introduce you to my new friends. I gotta love them. And she was right. And, uh, next thing I knew that's where we were every minute. If we, I, I was asleep at work or

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at Anderson fear there was no other reality. And uh we were around the same people. We were doing similar things that we had before. What was Anderson Fair like in those early years? Oh, well, they were different for us because we had started off at different

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times. But it was a scene. It was a scene. There was whether, whether it was the era when she came out of the era that I really remember more than she, there was, there was always somebody there, there was, there was, it was closed a lot,

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but there was always someone there. It was like a little community center. And the there was just always somebody there. You had to be part of the click to get through the locked door out front. But it was a community center. And it was a scene

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when I was there did the spaghetti lunches. There was Pat Stout Sandy Mathis, Robbie Franklin Marvin Anderson. He was on his way out and they took me in as little, I was there off and on. But whenever I was back, I always did as much as

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I could for the club, whether it was some money or sweeping the patio or doing pots or spaghetti. You know, I did what I could when I was there, they had a little music at lunch time and like we said before, with Sand Mountain and the

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old quarter musicians were always looking for a venue to play. It was a place to play at lunch. At least they would get free spaghetti and who knows what else they would get in the little tip jar that was out front. Uh, by Francis time when

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she was there, it was becoming more of a music venue. You think more musicians came in, I think because we got music in it because we knew it. And you did night time. Yeah. When Walter and I came, became the active managers or whatever, we opened

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up the music room, we knocked out the wall to the space next door and totally doubled the size of Anderson fair and made it a music venue with the stage. Nighttime music sits six nights a week. And, uh, it was, it was a happening. Everybody we

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knew lived within about 10 or 12 blocks of that place. We all just would get up out of our beds and go right over to the fair and see what was happening because there was always something going on and there was lunch, lunchtime music, nighttime music

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and in between we just hung out or whatever, it was just, it was a community center. I keep saying that it was that cooking spaghetti early in the morning and folks would come in, they would look at the paper, do the crosswords, look at the want

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ads for jobs. Everyone always check in with each other while I was chopping onions and, and bell peppers. Roger was always working the crossword puzzle. Eric Taylor was comparing song notes with other writers and it was, there was a definite coffee clutch in the morning while

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the spaghetti was being cooked and that was very popular. They would all dissipate the all the various songwriters and people hanging out when the place opened at 11 and they would go away and we serve lunch for three hours. So that morning time. Do you think

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that that kind of helped? All right, it does. There's so much talent that came out in a short period of time from Houston 20 year span. There's a lot of people coming out a lot of talent. Do you think that those, those morning coffee times where

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people were comparing songs with each other was kind of a fruitful, kind of challenging time for them to was I think it was, I think that they were encouraging each other. There was, there was Lucinda, there was Eric, there was Lyle, my husband Steven Gerrard, all

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of these people Don Sanders would kind of meet and I was, I was kind of in the background doing other stuff. I was not actually one of them at that point. But no, I think they, they, I think they exchanged a lot of creativity and pumped

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each other on and they helped each other out on their way up. You know, they were competitive, their friends, they were competitive but they all helped each other on the way up. And I think that's what it takes. I saw this in Nashville after my many

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years in Nashville, being around musicians starting off there and forming a group and people and helping each other on the way up, motivating each other to pursue art, to pursue music, art too because there are artists, there are also, I'm thinking music is an art. Music

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is an art anyway. Um So I guess let's see. Um you wanna take kind of take turns talking about some of your individual experiences at the fair, different stories, that kind of thing, things that pop back, pop out at you about your time later after francy

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came, I was back and forth between Anderson Fair and Texas A and M I went back for a master's in forestry before I finished that up. I'd had an epiphany one weekend in Houston and had read the first work on sign language with Chimpanzees. And I

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said this is what I'm going to do with my life. So I went out, got the gramps, bought the chimp with help of her family. Once again, her family helping us out and started off with that folks around Anderson Fair. The music group here was very

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receptive to what I was doing on communication with this baby chimpanzee and raising it as a human. I was told to not read what anyone else was doing, raise this chimpanzee as a human child and teach it sign language. One of our good friends from Anderson

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fair new signs. She'd grown up with deaf parents chemo. She helped me, everyone there helped hold this baby chimp. She had uh I remember lunchtime Bill and Lucille playing lunches with their baby daughter in the back room and the playpen napping along with my baby Chimp

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Lily. So the music community really embraced what I was doing. I was not a musician or an artist per se in town, but my life was an art form and I was always accepted. I feel like because of this. Now she did draw all those. I

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think she caused one of the health inspectors to retire after he, every time he came to Anderson, we were doing something wrong. Always, we were doing something wrong. And one time he comes in, he tried to like us. Everybody tried to like us because we were

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obviously well intentioned young hippies. We were, we were harmless, you know, we were little restaurant, but we just weren't quite doing it proper and he walks into the restaurant and there she is in the kitchen with this chimpanzee and he threw his hands up in the

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air. I don't know what to do with you guys. I just don't know what to do. I, I honestly think the man went back to the office and said he needed another assignment, another job. Anything else? And yeah. Anyway, that was, that's Anderson. No, they never

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closed us down. They actually did. We had to clean up 908. Welch. A lot of the folks that worked at Anderson Fair had rented the house behind Anderson Fair 908. You know, big crew had gone through there of different people that live there so we could

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go back and forth at night. Sometimes we'd get lazy. We had speakers in the house so you can listen to the music, you could just hang it at the house and they said, ok, it's break time, then run back over so we could be in the

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kitchen and serve the customer. We really did that. Yeah, who all lived back there at Welch? Um I was the first group with myself and Patty Miller and Tony Gag and all the appropriate guys that go along with having three girls in the house. And later

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we moved on and the guys moved in and I think that was Walter Spins Roger Ruffcorn and Steven Gerrard later I took Roger away and I think she moved in a bunch of different people. I was in the back room. Mitch Green was our first roommate

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but he, he fled after Dan Earhart drove him crazy. Learning how to tune the piano. Dan Earhart learned how to tune pianos living at 908. Well, and, uh, it was a, it was an experience in itself and a lot that played, uh, especially on the weekends

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at Anderson. They'd have the whole weekend they'd stay with us over at 908. Sometimes the Brave. So while you're at Anderson Fair, can you talk about some of the performers that you interacted with? Oh, wow, that's a big question. There. There, there were a lot of

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those people and a lot of them. I still know a lot of them are very special. Talk about. Let's talk about Bill Stines. Bill Stines goes back before Anderson. Fear. I met Bill Staines in 1969. Right after I graduated from UT, I went to a school

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up in Boston and I met Bill Stines. He and I actually hit it off and, and talked all night long. We had lots to talk about and I told him he wanted to go out west, he wanted to go to Texas. He had this longing and

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I said, oh, well, you need to call Mr Carrick in, in Houston, which he did. And he played there that spring and he has played in Texas every year since then we are still friends to this day and we of course, took him over. He, he

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played Sand Mountain in the Oak quarter and we led him over to Anderson Fair and he still plays Anderson Fair. And he was Ville Coville Folk Festival yodeling champion uh, in mid seventies sometime. And he, he Walter Spins and Bill Cade took off on a trip

00:31:18.579 - 00:31:39.160

out west without much money stopped in Carville. Somehow he won the contest. Not somehow he was great. He was great. Yeah. No, he didn't accidentally win it. Uh, Bill, Bill, yo, he's really good. And, uh, he's still a friend. We still know Bill, let's think of

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others. He comes to visit us every year where we live to, it tells us stories. He brings stuff we still down for us to listen to. I mean, Bill Stas is the true folk musician from the northeast that still travels in his car, millions of miles.

00:31:54.349 - 00:32:14.479

Amazing. Hey, let's talk about Pho Vince also goes back to Sand Mountain. Um, and gosh, Vince Anderson Fair one time, Vince wrote a song. What was, what was the Christmas, the Christmas song the night before Christmas, he utilized everybody at Anderson Fair at that point in

00:32:14.489 - 00:32:31.150

time in this song called the night before Christmas at Anderson Fair or something like that. It was amazing. And, uh, Vince is an amazing writer, an amazing person and a friend of ours. And when he had his accident, we close ranks. We're, we may not see

00:32:31.160 - 00:32:47.160

each other for a long time. This group of people that goes back to 69 and 70 we close ranks and we're there for each other. Even though we're not always in our everyday lives. I saw Vince a lot right after his accident because that happened in

00:32:47.170 - 00:33:03.250

Austin and I had moved to Austin at that time. Um, and that's a difficult topic and, uh, you'll probably covered that in Vince's interview. So let's move on to a different musician, Eric Eric Taylor. Yeah. Oh, wow. Eric Taylor. He was every morning at the practically

00:33:03.260 - 00:33:21.920

led the coffee circle there at Anderson Fair for many years for the writers, all the writers to come in and compare notes and drink coffee and uh Eric Taylor, he always called me auntie. I was the cowgirl. She's the cowgirl. My husband Steven was always biscuit.

00:33:22.560 - 00:33:37.300

Eric had little fun little names for everybody and uh and Eric kind of, I think when I think of Eric, it's, it's hard not to think of Nancy Griffith. And I love it. They were quite a mentored them, he mentored them, they were quite a, quite

00:33:37.310 - 00:33:54.790

a group together. And let's move on. How about Rock Romano? Oh, my goodness. Rock Romano is no special friend. And the times I, well, we both actually lived in the house is we were neighbors. We were friends. He taught me, he mentored me in bass, rock

00:33:54.800 - 00:34:15.968

and roll bass. He, he, what a, what a little magician. What a whirlwind of activity. I've had the pleasure of working in his studio. Red Shack Studios here. He's, uh, he's still a friend. He's still a wonderman. He's still a little magician. Um, Bill Cade Lucille

00:34:15.979 - 00:34:30.059

K, they were Bill and Lucille when I first knew them. When they split up, it shattered my world. I thought they were forever and poof, my, my image of forever went away. And uh it's OK and, and I still love them both and all the picking

00:34:30.069 - 00:34:51.729

parties. They had all the people of their houses they would have in the events Bill Hames. Aileen and Elkin came out in Nashville and brought it their spirit to Texas. They were beautiful, beautiful harmonies. They had played in Leonard, Cohen's band. Bubba was the next one

00:34:51.739 - 00:35:06.820

up after they were Leonard to be the star and he dropped out and they gave it to Charlie Daniels that played with them and he and a dropped out and moved to Crumb Texas and spent a lot of time with this at Anderson Fair and I

00:35:06.830 - 00:35:21.270

spent a lot of time with them with the chimps because they were close to Oklahoma and I would come down with baby chimps so they could feed them and I could take a break and visit on weekends. Rick Smo, Rick Des who I met in 1974.

00:35:21.280 - 00:35:38.830

Maybe. I think I met him, Dan Earhart, maybe about the same time he was working for Channel two with Bruce Bryant filming things. But he was a musician from L A and famous in his own right from there. And he loved his time here and I

00:35:38.840 - 00:35:59.459

used to see him a lot in Nashville when I lived there and he would come visit and pitch some songs and he lives close to us now. So he's still around there. The Cyprus Swamp Stoppers, Malcolm and Becky Smith had been, uh, how could I forget

00:35:59.469 - 00:36:17.340

his name? Tom Russell. No, no, just like, stop. He did not like chimpanzees. No, he didn't. He was attacked by monkeys in Vietnam and he had a very adverse reaction to Lily Fry was spending some time with them and I go over with Lily and he

00:36:17.350 - 00:36:32.600

turns what, I've never had anyone had that reaction to Lily. You know, that's a baby and hanging and looking at and hooting and signing something. But he had been attacked by a monkey. He had, had to be quiet. It was attacked and hurt very seriously, but

00:36:32.959 - 00:36:54.310

couldn't take Lily over to Zeke's house. I wanna go back to Rockford M Kirk and Jim Doug Lacy. Wow, it's hard to think of all the people that we heard in those years going through John Roma. Oh, my goodness. What a blues picker singer? Have we

00:36:54.320 - 00:37:08.169

named a few? You had named a few? And that is really just, that's just, I wanna tell a story with rock. Ok. We shared a house. He, he wanted to get a house but he needed a roommate. So he talked to me. I was at Anderson

00:37:08.179 - 00:37:23.760

Fair and I was ready to leave 908. At that point wasn't sure what I was going to do. It just gotten a job at the zoo training an elephant for a while. So he was a jazz musician. He'd be up all night. I think he had

00:37:23.770 - 00:37:39.540

smoking fists there and we meet up about the time he was coming in, I was about to go off to my job at the zoo and I had this, this uniform with the epileptic and the high black boots. And we walked down to Harry's restaurant for

00:37:39.550 - 00:37:59.780

breakfast and he had on his class that sort of hunched over and dark classes and we were always quite an odd couple walking in the morning, but we are still good friends. Um You had mentioned Red Smith earlier. Yes, I don't know too much about him.

00:38:01.030 - 00:38:16.520

Red Red was at Sand Mountain. We met at Sand Mountain. He was only 15 years old when I met him. He had come up from the valley and he was, he was part Chinese and part Mexican. And uh he came, he wanted to learn how to

00:38:16.530 - 00:38:35.260

play music and he did and he was a good picker singer and songwriter and it's kind of hard to talk too much about Red because he apparently became disillusioned and did himself in, in his thirties and it's kind of a sad, very sad thing, you know.

00:38:36.199 - 00:38:47.939

But he was very much a part of our lives in the seventies and he always rode a bicycle as far as I know. He never said that I never drove a car in his life that I know. I probably never left the Montrose. Um, his entire

00:38:47.949 - 00:39:06.560

life was spent in that world that he could get around on his bicycle and I'm playing music that can support himself. So it was at a point when the jobs weren't there. Did you ever interact with David Rodriguez when he? Oh, absolutely. And admire, admired him

00:39:06.570 - 00:39:27.800

greatly. You'd still do. And, uh, of course, he's, he's passed on now as well, but no terrific writer, terrific. Absolutely. Linda Lowe. I was in Little Rock visiting Bill Hames at some point and I remember a big party at his house, the Clintons were there and

00:39:27.810 - 00:39:41.280

I looked across the room, there was sort of one of those parties and, and I saw this real interesting woman that sort of kept getting my attention and fascinated me. So I started to talk to her at some point later in the evening and it was

00:39:41.290 - 00:39:58.669

Linda Lowe and I invited her down to play at Anderson Fair and she never left. I know she's still here. Actually, she, uh, she is still here. She does writers in the round. She teaches music. She's a formidable person here in Houston. Um She and Don

00:39:58.679 - 00:40:12.389

Sanders and I did shows for the parks department for three years. And Tim Leatherwood got us that job. He was at the time working in the parks department and got jobs for lots of people. And our job was to go around to the various parks and

00:40:12.399 - 00:40:27.929

put on shows for the Children. It was actually a lot of fun and my partners were Don Sanders and Linda Lowe. That was great fun. You Don Sanders. We've mentioned him before. How can you not mention Don Sanders? You know, she had a house in the

00:40:27.939 - 00:40:46.350

Heights for a while. I would spend a lot of time there staying with her and other folks, Malcolm Smith would come and play his violin for us and towns would drop by Tim Leatherwood and I got that house at some point after she had left, the

00:40:46.360 - 00:41:01.199

house, towns would still come and stay. He would come and sober up to come see his mom that lived in River Oaks at the time. So he'd come, stay sort of sober up. I would drive him around because he would go and counsel old friends on

00:41:01.209 - 00:41:23.159

how they should be. What was his advice? Well. Mhm. You'll see Richard checking his finger and looking like this. Sometimes Tas would do that same thing, folks, how they ought to be in act and be good and all those things. Mhm. So I drive him from

00:41:23.169 - 00:41:40.250

place to place. I got to driving him to gigs at night because I didn't drink then or anything. So stay up and drive him around and get him back home without him being kidnapped. Or were you able to keep him out of trouble? I never tried

00:41:40.260 - 00:41:54.699

that, but I had to ride home and it was his choice because uh I mean, it was amazing the women that would fall in love with him and wanted to take him home and he was trying to be somewhat good. So I would be the ride

00:41:54.709 - 00:42:15.979

back for him and his excuse to ride back. Um Francy, you've kind of mentioned playing music. Um How, when did you begin and how has that progressed throughout your life? You know, I managed the restaurant for about three years and that was just a completely full

00:42:15.989 - 00:42:34.219

time job. And all I, what I do is cook spaghetti, clean bathrooms, sweep floors, open shiner beers. And uh I guess when I retired from that after about three years, what I wanted to do was be a musician. I'm looking and I'm going, I think I'm

00:42:34.229 - 00:42:46.389

talented. I can do that and I knew how to play guitar. I, I'd actually even played a gig or two, but I was not by any chance the songwriter or the people, the performer that any of these others were. But I decided made up my mind,

00:42:47.330 - 00:43:04.290

I wanted to be a musician too. And uh and actually I proceeded to do that. That's what I did. When I, after I retired from cooking spaghetti and working in the kitchen at Anderson Fair, I attended what I called Anderson Fair music school and I began

00:43:04.300 - 00:43:20.090

playing there and uh we haven't mentioned yet my husband Steven Gerard, um also a songwriter there in the seventies. And he, he is the one that told me I needed to get a bass. He actually courted me from the very beginning. He invited me to start

00:43:20.100 - 00:43:34.090

playing with him, which is, that's the way into my heart, you know, asked me to come play music with you because I'm just like, just love music. And so he asked me to start playing with him and I did and he said, you need to get

00:43:34.100 - 00:43:52.790

a bass. We don't need two guitar players. So I got a bass and he was my partner off and on. Actually, he still is now, we've been married, we've been together for 40 years now and uh we still play together, but we're not, we're not the

00:43:52.800 - 00:44:09.090

do. Actually, we've changed places now. He plays the bass and I, I played keyboards and other things. But I just, I don't know, I've been a music music ever since then. I love it. I've known Stephen a very long time. He was always in love with

00:44:09.100 - 00:44:25.389

Francy, even though she was with someone else. I can't tell you the women that wanted to help him out and be with him. But he was so in love with francy. It was, he just waited, he just out, waited, everyone, wait, lonely. He had lots of

00:44:25.399 - 00:44:44.070

girls to help him wait for me to be available. And, uh, eventually I was available, like I said, he's, he's still around. He's not going anywhere. And, uh, I love him. He's my husband and he's my partner and we not only play music together, we love

00:44:44.080 - 00:45:12.540

boats and that's a whole another topic. Ok, we can. So after 1976 your lives, um those still connected, went in different directions. Um Could you both take turns talking about where your lives took, um, took you over the following years. You ended up in Oklahoma. I

00:45:12.550 - 00:45:28.919

ran out of grants at A and M working on my doctorate with the Chimp. I placed her in New Mexico for a while. I was devastated, came back to Anderson Fair, of course, tried to regroup. I could have sold the chimp finished the doctorate or continued

00:45:28.929 - 00:45:53.340

with my research, which was a lifelong project with her and I was in the middle of it, came back to the restaurant, took a break, stayed with my friends. Rock, got money training the elephant and decided to go back with the chimp wherever it led. Picked

00:45:53.350 - 00:46:07.330

up the chimp spent the summer out west took notes on my grandfather's World War One typewriter. I remember when we were out camping and right when I was down to, ok. I don't have much money left. I need to make the run to Oregon. I was

00:46:07.340 - 00:46:22.379

gonna be a waitress up there, do my research during the day, make money as a waitress at night. I could always do that. But I got, well, I got the job at the University of Oklahoma where they did the sign language research. It was the dream

00:46:22.389 - 00:46:40.120

job running it. My chimp could be around other chimps and become a chimpanzee because I felt that was real necessary at the time, she was not a human child. All this research was new and it wasn't going the way anyone thought it would. So I ended

00:46:40.129 - 00:46:56.030

up up there every six weeks. I would take a long four day weekend and come back to Anderson Fair. The longer I was there, the more chimp pansy I taught because all these home raised chimpanzees were coming in that did not know chimpanzees language. I was

00:46:56.040 - 00:47:13.310

trying to get them into groups so I would have them at my house. So I started to speak chimpanzee to teach them more than I was speaking English. My only outside contact was Anderson Fair and my friends there for the next few years. Well, meanwhile, at

00:47:13.320 - 00:47:29.149

Anderson Fair, I guess I was at that point uh pursuing my music and I played with, with Stephen for a while. But at this point, we had begun living together as well and it just, it became too much. And so we kept the living together part

00:47:29.159 - 00:47:42.439

and started, he went back to playing with Bill Cade, his old partner and I started playing bass with other people and, uh, and had some good times doing that. I played a lot with Steve Baker who's still a good friend of mine. He and I played

00:47:42.449 - 00:47:57.590

some gigs together during that period. Um, I played with a group called Terry and the Telephones. That, that's a really memorable time for me. It was only once again. It was one, it was only four months in my life, but it was so very special. I

00:47:57.600 - 00:48:12.129

met these guys, Terry Ross and John Leaf. I met through Rock Romano and they had been, he had met them out in the suburbs. They were living in a apartment complex somewhere in the western desert as we call it in West Houston and brought, brought them

00:48:12.139 - 00:48:29.209

into the Anderson Fair. I heard him. I said, oh, man, you guys are right. You need a lady bass player. You need some harmonies. It, it'd be really good. Lisa had begun singing with them, just Lisa Williams. And uh we became a group, they, they thought

00:48:29.219 - 00:48:48.379

about my offer and they said sure. And uh for four months, we pumped out the tunes. It was just, it was uh created one of those really, really creative periods, amazing, amazing energy, three or four new songs every week and we just kept it going and

00:48:48.389 - 00:49:03.479

we played quite a few gigs. Not too many because like I said, it was four months and it was over. But, uh, it was incredible energy and there is a recording of it that says if this really did happen and it really was good. Now, these

00:49:03.489 - 00:49:17.199

guys had failed to tell us that they had a wife and a girlfriend in that apartment complex out in West Houston. And when those women showed up in Anderson Fair one night, that was kind of the end of Terry and the telephones. And, uh, I was

00:49:17.209 - 00:49:33.060

amazed that the looks back and forth were incredible and we were all looking back and forth and, oh, it was a moment in time. And, uh, and it was a, a wonderful era for me. I, I absolutely learned so much and, and really admired both of

00:49:33.070 - 00:49:53.120

those guys tremendously. And, uh, out of that, I met Richard Dobson. I had just recently, once again, Rock Romano comes out. He was producing Richard's LP. The big taste and rock invited Lisa and I to go over and sing harmonies on his song, which we did,

00:49:54.050 - 00:50:06.760

which we played tea and the telephones played a gig down in Galveston, Lisa and I failed to book a place to stay. We didn't know where we were sleeping. We were young and we walked the beach all night long and at dawn we went to Richard

00:50:06.770 - 00:50:19.030

Dobson's house. Oh, we know Richard. We sang on his album, of course. So we go to Richard's house and knock on the door. He gave us a place to stay. And later that afternoon, he took us to his studio. He was so proud. He had a

00:50:19.040 - 00:50:35.850

studio in downtown Galveston and he invited me to be his bass player. And I have to say that I still play with Richard Dobson to this day. Now, he's never lived in Texas much since then. He went to Nashville shortly after that and he's in Switzerland

00:50:35.860 - 00:50:56.050

now. But when he comes to Texas, I am part of Richard's Texas band. I'm very proud of that. And that started in 1978. So that's brings us back to 1978. That's what we were doing. Now, my part, we go back. So I'm at the Chip Farm.

00:50:56.679 - 00:51:19.870

Things are Bright Cherry. I had received really good grants for a couple of baby twin chimps I had raised and I was going to do a communication with them and acquisition of language between them and, and my older Chimp Lily that I still had. They were

00:51:19.879 - 00:51:33.370

so cute and, and they were finally healthy and I came down one Christmas here with them. They were just starting to decide they could sign food and drink. It was their first signs. And there are a lot of pictures about Anderson fear of people holding them

00:51:33.379 - 00:51:54.179

because baby chimps have to be held all the time. And there was this wonderful picture of them and everyone had this wonderful New Year and I went back then there was a horrible fire. The twins was killed. All my research burned. It was really devastating. So,

00:51:54.189 - 00:52:08.899

um, I was in shock. I come back here, Tim ood takes me back in at the house we had shared in the Heights. Towns came down for a week or two and just drove me around. I mean, I couldn't hardly talk to. He said, Lucy, you

00:52:08.919 - 00:52:22.989

can't talk to a half drunk blonde, crazy man who can you talk to? And Tim would take me to Anderson Fair and I would just sit in the kitchen and listen to music. It has always gone back to the music where you gain your strength and

00:52:23.090 - 00:52:42.090

something inside from then he sort of slowly began to heal. And about that time I started, Richard Dobson was coming more to the fair and we started to visit more and we had a lot in common, you know, traveled to adventure and people we knew and

00:52:42.100 - 00:53:03.739

literature and art, all those things. And it, at some point, my partner was killed in Oklahoma and he asked me to move to Nashville with him, which I did. I didn't know anyone and I got there and there were guys, Susan, I Lomax mo, other people

00:53:03.750 - 00:53:24.399

I'd known from here. It was a great place to take off. I ended up there 25 years. I was there 7.5 with Richard people we knew from Houston were starting to venture out more from Houston play other places, you know, as their career started to grow,

00:53:24.459 - 00:53:39.510

Nashville was sort of intimidating because the younger route hadn't been there, you know, guy in towns had been there. But before that the Nancy had been there, she came to visit us. People started to come visit us. Nancy came and visit. We were moving Kay Mattia

00:53:39.989 - 00:53:57.090

that weekend because we had the truck and introduced Nancy to Cathy. So that worked out for them. Lucinda came and visited, but she went back to L A. Others came and visited and we encouraged them to just to check out the music scene and the business

00:53:57.100 - 00:54:12.790

and Richard was very good at explaining sort of how the Nashville business worked and it was nice that folks could come visit and sort of see and test it out, stay with us. And we were back here in Houston every three months anyway for his gigs.

00:54:12.800 - 00:54:28.239

And so we were never very far away back to that road trip thing. But, you know, these days it seems to be such a major thing to go on a trip or, you know, jump in the car and drive somewhere in those days. Hey, let's go

00:54:28.250 - 00:54:45.870

to Nashville tomorrow. Ok. You know, $10 fill up the car and the water. It's, I don't know if it was traveling was easier and cheaper. It just was, we didn't fly. We drove, we drove here, we stayed with Steven and Francy. They were, you know, his

00:54:45.879 - 00:55:01.449

main band if we were in Austin. So we'd stay with town. So we're down here, we'd be with Roger Ruffcorn or Tim often go down to the beach with Rex for while Rex was there. Then he was down in Galveston. Then we'd stay there wherever she

00:55:01.459 - 00:55:18.030

lived. I always came to visit. I visited Nashville. I visited, I said I didn't visit Nashville. I visited Cy's farm and I visited uh Oklahoma numbers of times. And even after Richard and I broke up, we had the same friends. So we stayed the same places.

00:55:18.040 - 00:55:37.689

So it just all has kept on working and he and his wife that I love very much stay with us when they come to Texas. Our neighborhood, actually, our neighborhood is Richard's uh Texas address. Since his parents have passed on, we are, we are his exits

00:55:37.699 - 00:55:59.709

home. Um And then Francy when you, um and Stephen moved on to Austin, you continued to play music. Can you talk about that time and what you, oh, at first we were just to do it kind of like we had been and that evolved into a

00:55:59.719 - 00:56:18.929

country western band which took us to beer joints and dance halls. And our life changed when we met a violin player, Javier Chaparro and Javier turned our life around because he's, he's a concert violinist and he kind of took us under his wing. He suggested to

00:56:18.939 - 00:56:34.370

Stephen that he learned to play guitar, which is a big Mexican bass, which Stephen proceeded to do. And he played with Javier for over 30 years as his bass player, I took up accordion about that time and I actually ended up being in a strolling trio

00:56:34.379 - 00:56:48.800

with Steven and Javier. And I played the accordion. I played classical piano as a kid, so I knew how to read music. And all of this came into play. At that point, I became a strolling accordion player for quite a while. Did some very, I would

00:56:48.810 - 00:57:02.969

never even know that I was going this place, but I did and we played weddings. We played business conventions and restaurants. We played a Sunday brunch, we had a Sunday brunch career. We would play every Sunday 11 to 2. And from that, we would get all

00:57:02.979 - 00:57:19.620

these other gigs and this all started with this relationship with this violin player. And, uh it really took us down a different trail and we still, he's still one of our very closest dearest friends. And, uh and he plays on Richard. Um I'm still played after

00:57:19.629 - 00:57:35.010

my accordion career kind of ended about 2000. I think things kind of switched and the Sunday brunch gigs dissipated. And I took up keyboard at that point, which is, goes back to my piano as a child and I'm still playing the keyboards and it's, it's very

00:57:35.020 - 00:57:50.989

fun. And I sing harmonies. I'm still in a couple of groups and we don't play very much anymore. But when we do, we have a good time. She is in, in a Hawaiian and a reggae band. I'm kind of tropical now, goes along with my loving

00:57:51.000 - 00:58:06.889

boats and water and tropical islands and I wish that they didn't have any hurricanes this year because it's making me very nervous. But when she plays accordion with Richard, he likes her accordion. I do. He likes the sound. So she is still playing with Richard plays

00:58:06.899 - 00:58:24.689

accordion with Richard when he comes to town. So I've never quit playing music. I hope I never quit playing music. It's a whole lot of fun. It's uh it's very special. So, Lacy before you moved back here. Um And after your relationship with Richard ended, you

00:58:24.699 - 00:58:45.110

were in Nashville. What were, what were you doing at that time? I've always worked with the animals. People here always call me the cowgirl. I've had horses. So I decided to be a professional cowgirl. I kept waiting for something to take back off with the chimps

00:58:45.120 - 00:59:02.510

that didn't happen the whole time. I was with Richard. I waited year after year, I never took up anything. I couldn't leave and then I realized this wasn't happening. So I became a professional cowgirl. I went around to different ranches. I learned the event I did

00:59:02.520 - 00:59:15.709

working and cow horse. They thought I was cute because I traveled in my van, had my horse trailer and I just stayed there and always take wife's presence and would be very nice. I learned the event and I figured that the guys like me because they

00:59:15.719 - 00:59:31.909

yell at me a lot on how to do it. When I became a high point world champion. I won the Dixie Nationals four times. I'd come back here and visit her son then was playing soccer and he was little. So I'd come, I'd have my shiny

00:59:31.919 - 00:59:50.409

belt buckles and we'd exchange exchange injuries and he'd show me his trophies. I'd show him my belt buckles. And she also went through a period where she did movies. She trained animals for movies. She had a connection with the guy that started in California that did,

00:59:50.419 - 01:00:02.540

would hire people that would actually, you know, she would be the person to get the flamingos to run across the stage at the right moment. And she did all kinds of different animals and she did the same thing in Nashville. It goes back to the champs.

01:00:02.550 - 01:00:21.439

When the Chimps went down, I had my champ Lily. I had to find another place for her. I got the place in Nashville at the big farm and was trying to get her and I arranged to try to get another champion because Chimp shouldn't be alone

01:00:22.070 - 01:00:37.330

and have a place there almost got a place in Florida with Bob Ingersoll with the Chimp N. That's a famous chimp. And we were going, we were gonna buy a chicken farm with automatic loan to pay for our research with the chimps and then invite universities

01:00:37.340 - 01:00:49.000

in and we knew this would take off. But at that point then went someplace else. So I took the chimp to L A and found this guy animal trainer. He said, I'll keep your chimp if I can have the first baby. Sure. So I was out

01:00:49.010 - 01:01:11.540

there every 4 to 5 weeks and would spend two weeks with Lily and she got pregnant. I've had an unfortunate early death. He owed me a chimp. So at some point, I brought another chimp back to Nashville and I was revving back up and things didn't

01:01:11.550 - 01:01:28.310

go well with him. But I, I had another little chimp in Nashville for a while. The old video at Jack Clements studios, Jack Clements was one of her main babysitters. So the chimps kept going, but it was winding down animal trainers and scientists never got along

01:01:28.320 - 01:01:41.750

and was trying to bridge the gap somewhat that animal trainers did not have to be so harsh with their animals. Chimps understood language. You do the sign language with them or something else, they understand what you're saying. You don't have to be so harsh, but I

01:01:41.760 - 01:02:01.500

really didn't want the animal training there. But I did it to be around my chimp. And then I just started to do music videos in Nashville with farm animals and I did one pig video because I'd been on Peewee's Big Top Circus and I'd seen someone

01:02:01.510 - 01:02:13.449

work with the pig. So I said, OK, I can do this. And then I'll, someone called me and said, oh, I heard you're the best pick trainer in Nashville. So I'd call L A find out how to do something and do it. So then I started

01:02:13.459 - 01:02:34.429

to raise pigs for movies. You keep surprising me, you guys both keep surprising me. So I would go to Anderson Fair. I'd visit Fancy the party pig gig tour. Her, her little son was young. We had his birthday and I had a baby pig and I

01:02:34.439 - 01:02:47.580

came down here and someone else had a birthday party for their daughter, Deborah Baer and Maya at Anderson Fair and it was a party pig gig. So you never knew what baby animal I was gonna bring with me because they all had to be bottle fed

01:02:47.590 - 01:03:06.979

and we were always on the road. So I just bring them with me and bottle feed and do what I need to do with the little baby animals. I always said that's Lucy. Um I see. So you now live near each other outside of Austin? And

01:03:06.989 - 01:03:26.639

what is your life like? Now, we like to play Dominoes. What is our life like? Now? We, we cook a lot before I went to Nashville, Francy and Steven wanted a place of their own and I wanted a little piece of Texas before I left. So

01:03:26.649 - 01:03:46.080

we bought property together. Yeah, in 1983 we bought property together in this neighborhood where they now live. And since that time our friends have bought in the neighborhood too and it, it's becoming like a little community. It's, it's really very, very nice. I would recommend it

01:03:46.090 - 01:04:08.000

for anybody in there. What, what, what do you want to do with your later years? You want to live close to your friends? Good music, good food parties, good food. Take turns your house tonight. OK. And uh it's good. So kind of looking back on the

01:04:08.010 - 01:04:28.370

Houston folk scene. Why do you think it produced so much talent that I don't know, but I do know that it all, I don't know. I think it helped. They were very creative times. It was the times, the times in 69 and 70 it was an

01:04:28.379 - 01:04:46.189

era of yes, anti-establishment is not the word, but it was the hippie era. I mean, we were, we left the comfortable things. We didn't, didn't do, but none of us were doing what our parents thought we were going to do. I don't know what they thought

01:04:46.199 - 01:05:01.250

we were going to do, but it wasn't what we ended up doing. And then we became each other's family bit of creativity. And there were the, the musicians that went on to become famous. I mean, think about that, Lucinda Lyle Nancy, they were just all coming

01:05:01.260 - 01:05:17.409

right out of this little hotbed of creativity that just fed off each other. But even if they didn't become famous I saw in Nashville, it didn't often have anything to do with that. Sometimes it's the luck of the draw. I saw friends equally talented, but we

01:05:17.419 - 01:05:39.629

all encouraged each other. We lived in a, this bubble of creativity here from, from the clubs, the people we hung out what we did, it was all focused on what we were doing and it was new and we, we pushed each other. So I don't know

01:05:39.639 - 01:05:54.649

what made it so, so magic, but it certainly was. And why do you think that fruitful time eventually came to an end? I don't know that it really came to an end and I don't even know that we actually grew up. Maybe we did. But uh,

01:05:56.209 - 01:06:11.719

I guess the end for everybody, you know, you can ask a million different people what happened in that year or whatever and everybody's gonna have a different answer because everybody had their own little experience in the little web of it all. And life is growth, it,

01:06:11.729 - 01:06:29.100

it, it, life is not stagnant, you know, going like this, you know, sometimes it comes in but when it comes in or someone needs help this old group because we have such a sense of family with each other. We are there for each other and actually

01:06:29.110 - 01:06:42.469

in some ways, we're all still there for each other. Because I, I still know so many of the people that I met in that era. They, they had become my lifelong friends. I, I've met a lot of other people along the way that I've worked with,

01:06:42.479 - 01:06:58.790

known as parents and blah, blah, and blah, blah. But when I really get down to it, my lifelong buddies come out of people I knew in the seventies in Houston for the most part. Um, sometimes some, some from Brian, some from Austin, but mostly Houston and

01:06:58.800 - 01:07:19.320

Brian in the seventies, very formative period for ourselves. That's when we were in our twenties. So that's, that was our youth. That's what we did. Um Are there, we're kind of coming to the, to an end. Are there any other kind of stories or anything else

01:07:19.330 - 01:07:44.600

that you want to, to cover that? We haven't not that's coming out at the moment. We'll think of these things on going all the way home. We'll have plenty of, well, I thank you so much for coming to Houston and coming to do the interview. This

01:07:44.610 - 01:07:54.050

has been a lot of fun. It's our pleasure and we thank you for, for doing this for uh the archives and just for history, it's a wonderful thing that you're doing.