00:00:01.450 - 00:00:14.250

Okay, perfect. So good morning, Dr. Lai. Today is July 17th, 2021 and I, Sam Lee, will be interviewing you on behalf of HAAA. Can you please introduce yourself briefly before we begin?

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Yes, my name is Dr. Eugene Lai. My Chinese name is Chi Ho Lai and I'm presently a physician at the Houston Methodist

00:00:30.940 - 00:00:45.010

Neurological Institute. Okay. To begin with, we'll talk a little bit about your early life. Do you mind sharing where and when you were born? Sure. I was born in China.

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I have one older brother and one younger brother. Then when I was about six or seven years old, in the early 50s, my family emigrated to Hong Kong, which at that time, was a British

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colony. So I pretty much grew up in Hong Kong. When we got there, you know, at that time, in early 50s, China's already under the communist rule.

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So we were fortunate to be able to have an exit visa to go to Hong Kong and join my grandmother there. So we started school after we

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get there—my brothers and I. So my elementary school is a school that is a government school that, you know, beginning to learn English because up until six or seven years old, when I

00:02:02.120 - 00:02:22.450

was in China, I did not study English. But later on then, when I'm in fifth grade, I was fortunate to be able to attend the Wah Yan College in Hong Kong.

00:02:22.560 - 00:02:38.800

This is a Jesuit-run school, both elementary school and high school. So we really have a very good time over there. I attended the school from

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grade five all the way to graduate high school. I was pretty active in high school. So I was in the school team and badminton and volleyball. I was in the school's debate team.

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I was fortunate enough to be selected head prefect for the school in my senior year. One of the accomplishments that I have is that I and my fellow classmates

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organized the first student council for the school and the administration will allow high school students to voice some of our opinions of studying and social activities

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and organize social activities and competitions and so on. So it was a fun time. So after high school, in the senior year, we have to take a

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General Certificate examination. And after that, we started to think about college. Luckily, my parents were very supportive to send me overseas to

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study. At that time, my older brother was already studying in the University of Wisconsin in Madison, Wisconsin. So naturally, I also wanted to leave

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Hong Kong, which is a very small place with a lot of people. So kind of tried to get out to other parts of the world and experience other opportunities. So I applied to the University of

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Wisconsin and got accepted. So I, in 1967, then went overseas and attended the University

00:05:17.310 - 00:05:32.400

of Wisconsin. So that's my undergraduate years. You know, it's kind of a culture shock, but I worked pretty hard. Luckily, we get a scholarship

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pretty much right away. And then I, of course, worked part time also. So I was able to support myself through my undergraduate years. I studied biochemistry,

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which at that time, it's kind of a hot area. A lot of interesting biological phenomenons are now associated with biochemistry.

00:06:08.530 - 00:06:24.910

So it is a very attractive area. At that time, we really studied the enzyme-enzymatic reactions in biological systems and so on.

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It is not an easy topic, I have to admit, but luckily, my education in Hong Kong seems to be quite well prepared for an education in the US system.

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So I—even though I have to work extra hard, but I didn't find specific, any difficulties in able to catch up with our fellow–fellow students that come through high school in the United States.

00:07:05.610 - 00:07:22.280

So, yes, go ahead. [SL: Sorry.] Feel free to interrupt me when we talk. So I'm just going through chronologically [SL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.] in my career, and so on.

00:07:22.780 - 00:07:34.360

So go ahead. Oh yeah, I can step in and ask like little questions here and there, that way you don't have to like keep talking for like the whole hour. Or you could just raise your hand and then I will stop for you.

00:07:34.620 - 00:07:45.280

Yeah, yeah. Just to like backtrack a little bit, back to like before you immigrated. You were talking about how your high school really prepared you. Did you guys learn English?

00:07:45.300 - 00:08:00.090

Was it like a private school? Can you talk more about what type of high school you went to? Right. So it's a—what we call a semi-private school. It is—it was run by the Irish

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Jesuit priests. But we also get subs-subsidies from the government, so we do have to pay tuition, so it's kind of half and half.

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It is a school that we do use English in most of the subjects, including science, mathematics, and English language and literature. But we still quite emphasize the

00:08:36.420 - 00:08:51.730

Chinese literature and Chinese history. So there are two subjects like Chinese literature—Chinese language and literature and Chinese history were taught in Chinese.

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This is continuing on like your school. Were you religious at all during your upbringing? Were your parents religious? No, my parents were not particularly religious or belonged to any

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religious groups. We do get involved because it is a Catholic school, and a lot of Catholic activities, and towards my last few years in high school,

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I was baptized as a Catholic. I see. Was your school single sex or— [EL: Yes, just an all-boys school.] Oh, I see, interesting. [EL: Yeah.] And like to talk a little bit more about your parents, if you don't

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mind sharing, what kind of occupations they had and how that might have influenced your career in any way? Right. So my father has a college education in China.

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He actually owned a small business before we immigrated to Hong Kong. But of course, we have to start all over again. So he found a job as a stockbroker, also had a second job as a part time teacher, you know, in the evening.

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So he really worked quite hard over many years to support the family. So we are kind of still considered maybe a middle class family. My mother has a high school education and she

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worked as a secretary in a bank for most of the years we were growing up. Yeah. So both of them worked in such ways.

00:10:48.060 - 00:11:04.130

I see. And you said you had an older brother and a younger brother. And I know you talked about how your older brother's decision to go to college in the United States had you follow in his footsteps a little bit. How is your relationship with both of your siblings?

00:11:05.660 - 00:11:18.180

Both when you were—oh, sorry. Yeah, when we were young, you know, just typical three boys. [SL: Yeah.] What can you say? So we have likes and dislikes, and competitions

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and differences. So we do get together pretty well. All–all three of us attended the same school so we were recognized as the three brothers in the school.

00:11:36.870 - 00:11:53.130

We do have some competition among ourselves, but–but I think we stuck together pretty well. And my older brother was very interested in technology and engineering so he eventually

00:11:53.130 - 00:12:06.280

became an electrical engineer. But my time was spent more socially. I am kind of a people person and

00:12:08.100 - 00:12:26.610

like to really have social activities and get friends together, and so on. So, essentially, brothers grew up pretty typically, in a small family, and we pretty much supported each

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other quite well. Is your family, like your brothers and your parents, are they—some of them still in Hong Kong or are they in the United States? Well, my father passed away already.

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My mother is now living in the States. My two brothers eventually all also went to—my younger brother also went to the University of Wisconsin, graduated there. So now my older brother is

00:13:01.110 - 00:13:12.960

living in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My younger brother is in California, where my mother's staying with him right now. Ah, I see.

00:13:13.230 - 00:13:28.910

And, one more question about your parents, you know, raising three boys like that. Did they have any special values or like beliefs that they tried to instill upon all of you guys when you were being raised?

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Right. So they really never pressed us as to, you know, we have to do this, or we have to do that—or this or that. But they showed us by really how hard they work, how valued they

00:13:51.190 - 00:14:11.280

perceived for our education, how they perceived the family values, that we stay together. And so we learned a lot from them, really, in terms of self-reliance, self-determination, and working hard,

00:14:12.220 - 00:14:31.030

and then trying to achieve as much as we can. They really were hoping that the three of us boys can have bigger achievements than

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they were. So actually, that's one of the driving force in wanting us to come to the United States and study this way.

00:14:45.440 - 00:14:59.260

Perfect. And then kind of transitioning to your immigration. I know you briefly covered it, but to kind of expand on it. What were–what were some challenges that you think you faced initially when you came across the sea?

00:15:01.090 - 00:15:21.210

Well, it is kind of a culture shock. We—I—the first time I was in an American, the first couple of days where they would stay with someone, and they actually have a Western-style

00:15:24.610 - 00:15:42.360

breakfast. And they—especially, because I'm Chinese, they boil some rice and put some butter on the rice and thinking that is the way that we eat the rice. So that's kind of a-a interesting answer (?) to

00:15:43.310 - 00:16:02.650

see that–that we say, “We don't eat rice this way.” Also, we—I, myself, initially, I really don't like to eat pizza at all. I haven't taste pizza—that's the first time I taste the pizza,

00:16:03.480 - 00:16:21.730

and it just doesn't taste right. It's just a different type of taste than Chinese food. But then after a while, everybody gets a pizza, and towards the evening or–or after

00:16:22.630 - 00:16:44.320

their studies, to just have a little snack and so on. Eventually, I get used to it and now I like pizza very much. One of the things also is that, you know, first, when I got to the University of Wisconsin, I had to live in a dorm-dormitory.

00:16:44.820 - 00:17:03.560

I have a roommate who was a young person from a-a rural area in Wisconsin. So although we'll get together very well, but our interests are quite different. There, in Wisconsin, every weekend,

00:17:03.600 - 00:17:17.460

Friday night and Saturday night, and, all the boys will go to the bar and get drunk. And then when they come back, and then they would make a racket and throwing up and so on.

00:17:17.460 - 00:17:36.770

So I got—not that used to it but eventually, I understand that that's kind of the ways that some of the students behave in college. But interestingly, my roommate and I—my first roommate in the United States and I got together quite well.

00:17:38.340 - 00:17:52.580

So those are my experiences. Then, I told you that I had to work part time while I was attending college too. My brother—older brother was already a supervisor

00:17:53.790 - 00:18:07.920

in the kitchen. So he fit me in right away. So I started working in the cafeteria for the dormitories. And starting from

00:18:11.270 - 00:18:29.970

a—what we call scraper, you know, after people eat, I was supposed to scrape the–the leftover food into the garbage can. And then I graduated to dishwasher, and then pots and pans washer, which I can earn an extra quarter an hour

00:18:30.640 - 00:18:47.300

working. And that was kind of fun. We'll work for at least two or three hours after school every–every day, most of the days to get some money to support ourselves.

00:18:47.850 - 00:19:02.180

So those are the times that we really work pretty hard. I see. Did you face any sort of discrimination or like feel left out from

00:19:02.180 - 00:19:13.020

like, you know, your peers, because they might be different from you or anything like that? A little bit. I'm really, like I said earlier that I don't go out to drink with them.

00:19:14.260 - 00:19:34.360

And there are a couple kids that actually were—that was in 1967-68, they use marijuana in the room and so on. But I kind of stay away from them, kind of pretty much

00:19:34.530 - 00:19:54.770

study in the library, and just got back to the dorm. I do the cafeteria work or, you know, go back to sleep. So, besides my roommate and a few of the dormitory people, I really don't have that much time to be involved in

00:19:55.630 - 00:20:14.970

too much activities or feel that I’m—I know I'm different, but I don't feel that anybody is specifically looking at me as that much different. Yeah. Kind of shifting to like the education part of, you know, your

00:20:14.970 - 00:20:32.020

immigration experience. What made you want to choose to study biochemistry? Well, yeah, so like I said, it was a hot subject at that time. We—I was not that particularly thinking towards

00:20:32.340 - 00:20:51.610

engineering, which a lot of people, my classmates or whatever, were thinking about. So more in the biological sciences field. And I think that biochemistry is a upcoming hot field at that time in the

00:20:52.680 - 00:21:10.780

60s. So I'm also thinking, you know, something about the medical profession too, although at that time, I don't have the financial resources to attend medical school at that time. So I was thinking about picking a

00:21:11.980 - 00:21:32.560

biological sciences field, and then maybe go to graduate school, which I would get support for that and then see what happens. Just for book-keeping purposes, what years did you attend University of Wisconsin? EL: It's 1969 [Correction: 1967 — Dr.

00:21:32.560 - 00:21:49.780

Lai studied here from 1967-1969] to 1960—end of 1969. I actually just studied two and a half years. I finished all my courses, sufficient to graduate in two and a half years. [SL: Oh wow.] I got some credit allowances

00:21:52.170 - 00:22:09.450

for my college–college level studies in Hong Kong so that's why I was able to graduate a little earlier. I see. Do you mind sharing some of your favorite and least favorite subjects while you were studying in college?

00:22:10.520 - 00:22:28.290

Oh, you know, in college, we have to study a foreign language, so they won't accept Chinese. So I have to study another language: German, which I find that that was a little difficult for me to do.

00:22:29.340 - 00:22:43.860

In terms of other subjects, pretty much I don't have too much difficulty. Of course, biochemistry is new with—we have typical topics when I'm going through high school, but–but not in terms of biochemistry.

00:22:45.250 - 00:23:03.660

So it is both new and not as easy, but it's very interesting and it relates to the biological system so it has meaning to it, as opposed to just chemistry, that you just study formulas and–and chemicals and so on.

00:23:04.670 - 00:23:21.020

But in biochemistry, you could actually relate it to how it works in the human or animal systems. I see, and this is what you went to graduate school

00:23:21.420 - 00:23:36.830

for? That's right. So then I applied for graduate school, because at that time, graduate school will give me a stipend, and I can self-support myself, and I could do research, and so on.

00:23:37.010 - 00:23:51.890

So fortunately, I was accepted to the University of Washington in Seattle, for biochemistry graduate school. So then I moved from Madison, Wisconsin to Seattle,

00:23:52.320 - 00:24:07.480

Washington, as a graduate student. So, I kind of—this is the first step that I move up in terms of my studies. What sort of niche areas in biochemistry did you study?

00:24:08.690 - 00:24:27.460

So, my thesis topic is the study of the function and subunit structures of an enzyme called DNA-dependent RNA polymerase. At that time, people are just starting

00:24:28.000 - 00:24:47.120

to understand DNA and RNA, and so on. So this is an important enzyme that copies the DNA and make the RNA so that the RNA can synthesize the protein

00:24:47.510 - 00:25:04.610

that is active in the systems of biological systems. So we went through—essentially we will decide,

00:25:04.610 - 00:25:20.520

and I am the work horse, of course. My thesis advisor will assign me the topic of isolating the enzyme. At that time, we still don't know that much of how cells—I'm

00:25:20.520 - 00:25:39.290

working—turns out that it has several subunits and together, it makes a functional protein, that when you put the necessary ingredient in the test tube, then it will copy the DNA into an RNA.

00:25:40.920 - 00:25:58.200

So that is mainly my topic. I see, that's pretty–pretty in depth, pretty complicated. Yes, it's very interesting. You know, at that time, we really don't know that much about genes and

00:26:00.030 - 00:26:16.220

the molecular process. So this is kind of the beginnings of molecular biology. Yeah. How did you like Seattle? Very good. I really—my graduate student years is

00:26:17.690 - 00:26:34.990

a lot of fun—were a lot of fun. And I really spent as much time in studying and doing research as socializing and working. We really went through quite a bit.

00:26:34.990 - 00:26:56.610

So, you know, University of Washington at that time had quite a large number of international students and we had about 400 or so students

00:26:56.730 - 00:27:14.350

of—ethnic Chinese students from Hong Kong and China and Taiwan and other places. So we had a lot of fun socializing. So, I was the president of the Chinese Student Association

00:27:15.340 - 00:27:32.150

over there for two years. And I was also actually the president of the International Student Association. We have about 3,000 or so international students at that time in the University of Washington.

00:27:33.440 - 00:27:50.860

So I was also on the board of directors for the student council actually, for the University of Washington, mainly because—as the president of the International Student Association. So we got to meet a lot of people

00:27:52.180 - 00:28:06.080

and learn from other—each other. So besides studying and–and research, I had a lot more fun. [SL: I see, I see.] And also one important event

00:28:07.190 - 00:28:28.190

happened during my graduate student years in the University of Washington, is—well, actually, I don't know whether you have heard of it before. It's called–it's called the Diao Yu Tai movement.

00:28:30.900 - 00:28:50.020

And this is the period around 1970 to 1976 or so. There's a group of small islands in the South China Sea that's in dispute between Japan and China

00:28:50.150 - 00:29:10.850

regarding the ownership of the islands. So the Chinese students are quite aware of this dispute, and we actually organized quite a bit of informational lectures, conferences,

00:29:12.770 - 00:29:33.680

some even protests, to ask the Chinese government to really stand firm, to be involved, to claim the ownership of the islands, so–so this is actually the

00:29:33.840 - 00:29:53.840

first time that a lot of students from Hong Kong and Taiwan start to learn more about China. Because we always kind of shunted away try to learn what's going on in China, because earlier there was the Cultural Revolution in

00:29:53.840 - 00:30:10.930

China. And we heard a lot of not so good things happening in China. But–but then, in the 70s, it seems that there's quite a change in the Chinese leadership, and also the government

00:30:10.930 - 00:30:29.360

and so on. So it's a start to let the Chinese students be aware of what's going on. And we are—we were also very much encouraged when, at that

00:30:29.360 - 00:30:49.420

time, President Nixon, Richard Nixon, visited China, in 1972. That really let us know, you know, have a glimpse of the people in the United States and us especially, we're very excited to see what's

00:30:49.450 - 00:31:11.710

in China. He visited the–the Great Wall, and Peking, and–and also different places. So we were very much into learning more about China. So this is a era that

00:31:12.740 - 00:31:29.820

the students from Taiwan and Hong Kong usually do not—we didn't know too much about China—starts learning more about China and our own fellow Chinese people living in China.

00:31:32.140 - 00:31:51.320

So that was quite a revelation to us, to start learning more about the Chinese culture, Chinese language, Chinese system and so on.

00:31:54.000 - 00:32:12.230

I see. And kind of retracking on to like, you know, how did this influence you and your career path? Well, I was always quite interested

00:32:12.320 - 00:32:30.470

in getting a group of people together, and tried to—besides our work and our studies—and tried to unite together and recognize our strength and recognize

00:32:35.640 - 00:32:52.620

what affects our well-being, and try to really support and fight for our rights and so on. So I think you could see that afterwards, I was also involved in a lot of different organizations, for

00:32:52.780 - 00:33:13.920

professional organizations and social organizations and so on, that I felt that, you know, we try to get the people together and for people who have similar interests, and similar backgrounds, and so on, to kind of think about our interest together.

00:33:16.310 - 00:33:30.870

I see. Kind of moving on from like, Seattle, and like your graduate school, what did you do after you finished your thesis and earned your PhD? Right, so I got my PhD.

00:33:32.100 - 00:33:54.740

At that time. I had a previous senior graduate student who's already studying in a lab in Houston and they are doing

00:33:54.740 - 00:34:11.030

molecular biology work. So I applied for a research fellowship in the Baylor College of Medicine, Department of Cell Biology in Houston. And I was accepted by, at that time, Dr.

00:34:12.050 - 00:34:28.700

Bert O'Malley, who was the chairman of the Department of Cell Biology. So then I came over. At that time, I got married just right before I left Seattle. So my wife and I then

00:34:29.590 - 00:34:49.780

moved to Houston as—first of all as a research fellow and then kind of move on. And I was really very fortunate to be in a laboratory, in a group that

00:34:50.110 - 00:35:09.750

were really doing top notch research. I was fortunate to be a participant in that so that we were one of the first groups to clone a gene,

00:35:12.690 - 00:35:30.070

a complementary DNA gene of the ovalbumin gene, the egg white protein from a chicken. And that is really, besides the hemoglobin gene that was also cloned

00:35:30.500 - 00:35:49.180

around the same time, this is the first genes that were actually cloned so that we know the structure of the mRNA. And then, very quickly following that—so at that

00:35:49.420 - 00:36:08.780

time, you know, it seems far-fetched, but at that time, we don't even know how genes look like. So we know that DNA will produce RNA, but we were very successful in using—copying the RNA

00:36:10.070 - 00:36:27.080

to make it into a complimentary cDNA so that we can clone that in a plasmid of a bacteria, so we can now produce the protein that is actually in the egg white. So that is very interesting.

00:36:27.520 - 00:36:44.610

Then after that, then we used the cDNA as a probe, to go back and try to clone the natural gene of the ovalbumin gene, to see what's actually—the actual natural gene looks like.

00:36:45.120 - 00:37:04.020

At that time, we were still thinking about the natural gene is pretty much like the cDNA, one copy will produce an mRN-mRNA. But little do we know, in 1978, we

00:37:04.130 - 00:37:21.860

actually discover that the natural gene actually is a much bigger stretch of DNA than just the cDNA and it is divided into many segments. And there are some parts of the gene that's active, some parts of gene that's not active,

00:37:22.470 - 00:37:42.210

and eventually, the gene product will be a big mRNA, or will be a big RNA, it will be processed into a smaller piece of functional mRNA. And then that is the RNA that will produce proteins.

00:37:42.750 - 00:38:01.180

So we now know that there are introns and exons in the natural gene, which is also one of the first published at that time. So we were quite excited about

00:38:01.180 - 00:38:22.460

these new findings later on, leading to everything else that's coming about in terms of genetic analysis, and so on. So-so those were the times the good times, a lot of research, a lot of late nights, weekends, just sort of working right

00:38:22.460 - 00:38:40.670

through because we do have a group in France. They were, I said, doing the hemoglobin gene that we compete in terms of publishing the—actually the understanding and the structure

00:38:41.210 - 00:38:58.080

of a natural gene, to be the first to do that. So those are the first few years when I was a research fellow, and then I was promoted to assistant professor in cell biology.

00:38:58.940 - 00:39:17.600

I also was successful in getting an NIH grant, RO1 grant, to study—actually, at that time, the gene structure of several other genes.

00:39:18.150 - 00:39:34.230

So then–then I have a career change after that. So let me answer your questions before I go to my next chapter. No, that was pretty good.

00:39:34.230 - 00:39:49.020

It seems like you had a very holistic, long winding road to, you know, your research. I actually had a question about why you switched from like molecular cell biochemistry to something more

00:39:50.060 - 00:40:07.280

neuroscience-y, but I feel like it might tie in with your other career. So if you want to talk about that first, that's okay, too. Okay, well, so now, I was assistant professor of cell biology,

00:40:08.450 - 00:40:27.730

but with support and encouragement from my wife, and my two daughters, who were at that time five and three years old already, I decided to go back to medical school. So it is—it

00:40:28.380 - 00:40:48.830

was a—not that difficult decision for me, I did research and so on. I like it, but it is very much a delayed gratification, to work and work and do research and then, you know, hopefully, you

00:40:48.830 - 00:41:03.360

will find some important discoveries. We was lucky that we actually did very well, published in Cell, Nature, and brought up more meaningful discoveries.

00:41:03.850 - 00:41:25.470

But at the same time, I'm kind of a people person too. I feel that something is lacking, that–that—in just the laboratory, hopefully, we could, you know, apply whatever—at that time, the molecular biology and genetic

00:41:25.570 - 00:41:45.360

view is really upcoming very quickly, hopefully to apply that to medical science and so on. So then I decided at a later age, I was in my 30s already, to go back to medical school.

00:41:46.850 - 00:42:07.200

I was accepted to Baylor College of Medicine and luckily, at that time, the in-state tuition was only $400, very affordable for me. So, we went through the

00:42:09.260 - 00:42:26.890

medical education. So we pretty much spent the same amount of time like a newly graduated college graduate, and went through four years of medical school at

00:42:29.290 - 00:42:49.400

Baylor, and then I had to decide on what specialty I want to specialize in. And we—I picked the neurology because I felt that with the advancement of molecular biology and genetics, a

00:42:49.560 - 00:43:06.800

lot of neurological diseases that we, at that time, did not know what the cause were, and they did not know what some of the effective treatments were.

00:43:07.860 - 00:43:24.810

So this will be a good field for me. I think that I could use my molecular biology and genetics experience to develop some—involve the—some scientific contribution

00:43:26.170 - 00:43:43.350

and also medical contribution in the field of neurology. So I picked neurology and I went through residency in—at Baylor College of Medicine. We attended Ben Taub

00:43:43.380 - 00:44:00.940

Hospital, the VA hospital, and–and the Methodist Hospital and so on. And got into the neurological field. I happened to see Cornell somewhere on your resume, I'm not sure.

00:44:02.370 - 00:44:24.050

Oh, that's later on and I could get into that. So–so I—1990 is a significant year for me. So after eight years: four years of medical school, four years of

00:44:24.050 - 00:44:40.270

residency, I finally got back to assistant professor again, in the Department of Neurology at Baylor College of Medicine. And so I have to kind of pick a field in neurology.

00:44:41.440 - 00:45:01.220

There are many sub-specialties in neurology. So I kind of picked the field, which I think has a lot of potential for development, the advanced neurodegenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's Disease,

00:45:01.800 - 00:45:23.360

amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and other neurodegenerative diseases. So, we, at that time, I kind of can pretty much concentrate on that. I was still doing some basic science research for a

00:45:24.060 - 00:45:46.640

couple more years, but then eventually I have to decide on whether or not I have enough time and energy to do both basic science and clinical work. So I do have to—I did have to close

00:45:46.640 - 00:46:05.360

my lab, and then concentrate on doing clinical research in neurobiology, and then not do basic research anymore. So 1990 was also the year that I

00:46:06.280 - 00:46:22.300

got my citizenship here in the United States so— and I also graduated from residency. So I started my career as faculty in neurology.

00:46:23.960 - 00:46:36.810

I see. I know that earning an MD and a PhD is definitely not an easy thing to do. Are you willing to share some of the hardships and sacrifices that you had to make during your journey?

00:46:39.460 - 00:46:58.920

So my PhD study, like I said, were quite enjoyable and we—actually at that time, I was—I had time to do both

00:47:01.070 - 00:47:17.770

research and also have a good social life. Now, during my medical years, because I already have a family with young children, that was a little bit difficult.

00:47:17.980 - 00:47:35.130

I have to kind of concentrate on my studies. I haven't actually had to study for a while, because in graduate school, and–and my fellowship, you just mainly do studies and experiments—it's a different type of study.

00:47:35.680 - 00:47:52.940

So we just have to really buckle down and–and do the research—do the studying. We did—I did sacrifice some of the times with my family, but looking back, it is quite worth it.

00:47:54.320 - 00:48:16.570

Eight years went by and I'm really fortunate that I had the good medical education, good really practical experience being a resident in the Baylor system. And now that—with those

00:48:17.180 - 00:48:33.520

type of experiences that I am able to be what I am right now. I see. Hold on. Sorry, I'm checking.

00:48:35.320 - 00:48:51.270

Yes. I think I might have interrupted you but it seems that you have affiliations with Cornell Weill College of Medicine. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that? Okay, so that is a long story.

00:48:51.270 - 00:49:07.200

Do you mind if I don't talk about it at this time? Yeah, yeah, yeah that's totally okay. [EL: It's only a side issue (?).] Okay, I can ask a-another question then. Sort of just wrapping up everything you just talked about, what

00:49:07.250 - 00:49:23.820

ultimately led you to pursue a career in both medicine and research, particularly in the field of neurology? And were there any particular influences such as people or events that kind of helped you, like encouraged you to go down this path?

00:49:25.230 - 00:49:43.160

Well, it's more—what I decided, based on my research experience when I was a graduate student and a fellow and so on, decided that just pure basic science probably did not fit my personality as well.

00:49:44.170 - 00:50:00.680

I hope to utilize my research experience in a more practical way. So we—getting a medical degree also will allow me to

00:50:03.020 - 00:50:21.460

be more closer to patients. Like I said, I'm a people person so it makes me happier if I can actually take care of patients, get them better. This,

00:50:22.180 - 00:50:42.620

again, we'll call it more immediate gratification, as opposed to being in basic science, where we have delayed gratification that was research and working on test tubes and chemical reactions until, you know, there is a

00:50:44.850 - 00:50:58.940

successful discovery. Whereas as a physician, I can see people, touch people, and–and get them well, quickly, and get their appreciation very quickly.

00:51:00.270 - 00:51:15.450

A little bit of a selfish idea is that I like to do both, unfortunately. So I just have to spend the time and get both research experience and medical experience so

00:51:17.340 - 00:51:36.170

that I can do both. So it's a more of a selfish and self-driving goal for myself, actually, to do that. I see. And do you mind sharing what are some of the best parts of your job and as well

00:51:36.170 - 00:51:49.500

as some of the worst parts and any other special moments that you feel like you want to bring up? Yeah, so we haven't actually gone to what happens after I study—I started neurology yet.

00:51:50.260 - 00:52:08.170

It is also, well, you know, I graduated in 1990, so it's 30 years since—30-some years since then. So I will get to that in a little bit. But thinking back,

00:52:11.200 - 00:52:29.740

fortunately, it fits my personality, and we just have to work harder than a lot of other people. I do, at this time, 13-14 hours every day, seven, six days a week, almost, or sometimes seven days a week, I have to kind

00:52:30.080 - 00:52:48.140

of juggle my time between seeing patients and their reports, some clinical studies, teaching, and paperwork, and so on. So that's a lot of things going on, organize conferences,

00:52:49.720 - 00:53:09.120

review papers, and communicate with other colleagues, try to do some clinical research to benefit our patients. So those are things that I—all things I want to

00:53:09.220 - 00:53:23.780

do. Unfortunately, there's not enough time in a 24-hour day. I try my best, so work-so working hard is important.

00:53:23.780 - 00:53:41.220

Working smart and more efficiently, which I learned through my years, time goes on, are very important. So that's what I think. Definitely, my wife can tell you that sacrificing time,

00:53:42.180 - 00:54:00.640

being with her more, with my family more, but we try to make our time together quality time. And also glad that with the—my family's support, I have been successful in my career.

00:54:03.230 - 00:54:20.530

I see. And Dr. Chao told me that you're an amazing physician with incredible work ethic and compassion. Can you talk about what qualities you bring to your career as a neurologist? And also some of the accolades or awards that you have collected

00:54:20.530 - 00:54:36.580

over time? Yes, so–so in neurology, like I said, I more specialize in neurodegenerative diseases, and these are more older patients.

00:54:37.270 - 00:54:58.780

So I really enjoy taking care of older patients who unfortunately develop diseases that have no cure or effective treatment at this time. So a lot of that is making them understand what

00:55:00.710 - 00:55:18.690

the condition is and what we are doing. It actually motivates me to work a little harder and doing some research in terms of finding ways to help them. You really learn to listen to our

00:55:18.690 - 00:55:40.570

patients, be compassionate, be able to understand their concerns, their fears, and–and–and their worries, so that you can effectively help them that way. It just kind of comes from experience.

00:55:41.630 - 00:56:01.170

I think now that I'm getting older, I can relate to my older patients a little bit better. I keep thinking back, you know, 25 years ago, I probably would not be as good a doctor as I am right now, but it comes from

00:56:01.170 - 00:56:20.630

experience, listening to the patients, trying to do my best for them, think about their situation and try to make it better. So within—just quick summary of my

00:56:20.630 - 00:56:42.910

30 years in neurology is that—so I was a faculty at Baylor College of Medicine. I was gradually moving up from assistant professor to associate professor to full professor

00:56:43.810 - 00:57:00.190

because of my interest and success in clinical research and teaching and also patient care. Also, in 2001,

00:57:03.390 - 00:57:21.770

I became the director of the Parkinson's Clinical Research Center [Full name: Parkinson’s Disease Research, Education, and Clinical Center] in the VA hospital. So I now, at this time, I’m more concentrating

00:57:23.840 - 00:57:41.970

in Parkinson's Disease. So over the years, I did clinical studies on Alzheimer's disease. Actually, one of the first drugs that FDA approved for treatment for Alzheimer's disease

00:57:44.340 - 00:58:04.100

is called Donepezil. I was fortunate to participate in the clinical studies of this drug and see if data [successfully] published and

00:58:04.100 - 00:58:22.820

then, the drug became commercially available. This drug, although it is not a cure or very effective treatment, it was something to slow down the progression some. So that was quite a success that

00:58:23.100 - 00:58:40.530

I was happy about. And then we—I was involved in quite a few different research studies. There was one drug that we studied quite extensively for patients with amyotrophic sclerosis.

00:58:41.470 - 00:58:59.680

But unfortunately, the results were not as good and did not get the FDA approval. And regarding to research in Parkinson's disease, I think my contribution would be that

00:59:01.040 - 00:59:19.700

in Parkinson's disease, it is a chronic, long, drawn out disease. Patients can live through 20-30 years with the condition and gradually getting worse. So there will be a time that the patients would not be

00:59:20.490 - 00:59:39.330

very much responsive to the available medication. And so we, together with neurosurgery, developed ways to modify the brain in the hope of improving their

00:59:40.380 - 01:00:00.010

symptoms in Parkinson's disease. So we did some research to put a lesion actually in the brain, in a particular area called the globus pallidus, to eliminate some of the stiffness, slowness,

01:00:01.100 - 01:00:20.740

gait difficulties, swallowing difficulties, and so on for patients with Parkinson's disease. And then more recently, I was involved in a multicenter study for deep brain stimulation in

01:00:20.740 - 01:00:37.660

patients with Parkinson's Disease. We actually put in electrodes in patients with Parkinson's disease to stimulate their brain in the event—to make them—to

01:00:38.270 - 01:00:52.700

improve their symptoms and so on. And that has been very successful. We now know a lot about putting electrodes in the brain, to activate certain parts of the brain, to eliminate their

01:00:53.940 - 01:01:09.500

symptoms and so on. So that is quite a success. Now, it is FDA approved, and people who are in the later stages, more advanced stages of

01:01:09.500 - 01:01:28.970

Parkinson's disease have a choice that they can really push back their disease about, you know, six or eight years, so that they will have some better quality of life. So those are very

01:01:29.680 - 01:01:50.860

important. Regarding some of the other successes, I was really happy to recognize it as pretty competent doctor, neurologist doctor here in the

01:01:51.070 - 01:02:11.120

city, and also in the country and someone (?). I also am—I was the director of the Parkinson's Center, actually, at the VA Medical Center here in Houston.

01:02:12.110 - 01:02:28.280

So getting back to—you were talking about Weill Cornell Association. So, back about 15 years ago, I was faculty at Baylor College of Medicine.

01:02:28.600 - 01:02:46.810

At that time, there was a split between the Houston Methodist Hospital, who for a long time was—who was the private teaching hospital for Baylor College of Medicine.

01:02:48.390 - 01:03:07.080

But eventually, there was a split–a split so people, part of the neurology department in Baylor College of Medicine actually moved over to Houston Methodist Hospital and establish the department over here.

01:03:08.730 - 01:03:23.240

I actually joined later on to be a faculty at this department at Houston Methodist Hospital. And I was honored with

01:03:26.390 - 01:03:48.930

a-a chairmanship and also, you know, recognized as the Hervey Chair, Endowed Chair recipient for Parkinson's Disease research and treatment. So, Houston Methodist does not have a medical

01:03:49.300 - 01:04:04.740

school and does not have a specific academic affiliation. So Houston Methodist actually is affiliated with Weill Cornell University in New York.

01:04:05.130 - 01:04:21.650

So my—now my academic credential is actually from Weill Cornell instead of Baylor College of Medicine. So I'm now a professor of neurology and neuroscience, actually from Weill Cornell University.

01:04:25.060 - 01:04:40.660

I see. That makes sense now. Yeah, so–so those are some of the things that we do. I'm still quite active in our professional groups and social groups. I was

01:04:42.610 - 01:05:01.380

president of the Houston Neurological Society. I was vice president for the Texas Neurological Society, which is a really big society, that there are about 800 to 900 neurologists actually in Texas.

01:05:02.200 - 01:05:20.540

We have a pretty good group. I was the president and also a board member for the foundation of the Chinese American Doctors Association here in Houston. I was also

01:05:21.360 - 01:05:42.940

belonging to the Society of Chinese Bioscientists in America, which is a national organization involving bioscientists here in–in the whole state—or the whole country.

01:05:44.030 - 01:06:03.100

So I'm still involved in that some of these groups and so on. Besides that, I like teaching. I—we have medical school students from Texas A&M and we have residents

01:06:04.120 - 01:06:22.570

here, actually, from Houston Methodist that follows me in my clinic, and also in my hospital duties, seeing patients in the hospital at this time. I still do a little research, although quite not as active as I was

01:06:22.570 - 01:06:38.200

before, but still trying to do some research, mostly clinical research. And I also collaborate with scientists, basic scientists, in Houston Methodist to do some basic research too.

01:06:39.030 - 01:06:59.070

I can offer a little bit, although I cannot actually do it myself, I can offer some of my experience in terms of basic research and how we can think about translational research to hopefully get the basic

01:06:59.120 - 01:07:17.530

research results to actually benefit patients with real diseases. So I see patients every day still, so that's—still keeps me busy.

01:07:19.700 - 01:07:38.640

Yeah. Kind of talking more about your patients, I know that you said it yourself, the neurodegenerative diseases, there's no simple cure or treatment. And that can be pretty hard, mentally and emotionally, to see like your patients decline and go through these hardships.

01:07:39.140 - 01:07:55.340

How do you think that Houston, like the Medical Center here, is able to support these patients and provide care for like, you know, diseases and conditions where there is no definite cure or anything like that?

01:07:55.340 - 01:08:12.670

Right. So one of the things we like to do is to cure the immediate problems, to cure the symptoms. Like Parkinson's disease patients, so they have the slowness and stiffness, the gait imbalance, and

01:08:14.660 - 01:08:30.640

so on. There are medications we can give them to improve their quality of life. There are many, many, actually, medications that's available, so it does take experience in

01:08:31.660 - 01:08:50.610

trying to mix and match the medications to best benefit your patients. Then in addition to that, one thing I want to mention is that these patients, neurodegenerative disease patients, are very individualized.

01:08:51.600 - 01:09:06.050

Each patient is slightly different. They have different clinical features, they have different worries and concerns, they have different family situations, and different individual needs, and so on.

01:09:06.050 - 01:09:25.370

So you really have to take care of your patient as an individual, instead of just like a group of patients, because that doesn't work very well. They need a lot of support, both the patient and the caregiver, because

01:09:25.660 - 01:09:45.980

caregivers bear quite a bit of burden in taking care of the patients too. So making them understand, giving them some hope as much as possible, talking about—telling them about the research we're doing, talking about some of the new areas that can help them,

01:09:45.980 - 01:09:58.390

new drugs coming out. But approach it in a more optimistic way. That helps. You see a patient and say, "Sorry,

01:09:59.470 - 01:10:17.470

there's nothing I can do for you, there's no cure," that's not going to be very well-received by the patient and the caregiver. So we try to do our best to put on, you know, make them really feel better and–and optimistic

01:10:20.520 - 01:10:40.960

outlook. There are a lot of different little ways we can do, both by medication, by just non-pharmacological means: keeping them healthy and active, do exercise, we can then sleep better,

01:10:43.780 - 01:10:57.860

and make things to manage their emotions better. And those are all very important things to do. So it's not that as easy as seeing

01:10:59.370 - 01:11:19.600

a patient and then just give them one medication and then expect them to do well. So it's actually taking care of the complete patient and together with the caregiver is the challenge for us. I see. Yeah. I guess since

01:11:20.670 - 01:11:35.710

that we're running a little lower on time, I can switch to some other topics instead of just your career. Do you want to talk a little bit about your family? I know you mentioned you have a very supportive wife. Maybe you can talk about where and when you met her and your children as well.

01:11:36.810 - 01:11:57.510

Okay. Well, we met when I was in graduate school in Seattle. She was an undergraduate student at that time. So we got married in 1976. So she was—she

01:11:59.340 - 01:12:12.650

still is a civil engineer. She has her own company and projects in building residential homes. So I have two daughters.

01:12:14.830 - 01:12:32.920

Both of them have grown up now. They grew up in Houston. My older daughter is a material engineer and my younger daughter was an attorney.

01:12:33.410 - 01:12:51.240

And now she changed her career as an ice cream maker and vendor. She actually run-runs several ice cream stores in Washington DC, called Ice

01:12:51.240 - 01:13:07.230

Cream Jubilee, and it's considered one of the best ice cream stores in the country, actually. She made her own ice cream. So no—none of them

01:13:07.390 - 01:13:21.890

are doctors, which, again, I never really pressed them on anything. I just want them to develop their interests. So now I have five grandchildren

01:13:22.950 - 01:13:41.370

and so my older daughter [has] three boys and my younger daughter has a boy and a girl. So actually, just last July 4th, we took the weekend, we got everybody together, and had a family

01:13:41.370 - 01:13:57.590

reunion after quite a long time. So that was very good, very pleasant. I see. And I know that being a clinician-scientist can eat up a lot of your time. But outside of your work, do you have any hobbies or

01:13:57.590 - 01:14:15.040

activities that you like to do in your downtime? I really don't have that much time as hobbies. When I have time, I just want to relax, maybe do a little reading. I enjoy food, we can go out and–and,

01:14:15.820 - 01:14:33.030

you know, have a nice dinner. Unfortunately, over the last year or so, we do not do that too often, but we like to do that. When I have time, I-I'm a pretty good cook so I like to cook a little

01:14:33.030 - 01:14:52.260

bit myself and develop some good recipes for food that I like. Those are some of the things. We like to travel, so whenever we get an opportunity, earlier, whenever we have conferences, in

01:14:54.020 - 01:15:11.380

different places in the United States or in the world, we would like to go. So we got to travel to quite a lot of different places, making use of the time to attend a conference and also, at the same time, visit some other nice places.

01:15:13.160 - 01:15:28.090

Hm. And this is kind of a heavier question, but how do you identify yourself today? And this can be based on your experience, your ethnicity, your religious affiliation, your values, beliefs, and so on.

01:15:28.130 - 01:15:48.120

Well, I think I'm, hopefully, a pretty good person, pretty good doctor. I have been able to really use my education and ability

01:15:48.950 - 01:16:07.120

to help some of my patients, to make them feel better, get better quality of life, and a large number of them, actually get well from their ailments.

01:16:07.540 - 01:16:26.840

So I also, hopefully, can be regarded as a good teacher that I have, over the years, and that taught many residents and students that hopefully, to share my experience

01:16:28.160 - 01:16:46.030

and my knowledge with them. And they can learn a little bit from that. And then I'm also, like I said, besides clinical care and teaching, I'm still very much enthusiastic

01:16:46.940 - 01:17:07.600

about research. Hopefully the research work that I've done, I have come up with some medications and procedures, like the deep brain stimulation, to benefit people and hopefully, to lessen their sufferings from their diseases.

01:17:08.170 - 01:17:24.910

So I think that-that I have made some contributions. And by working hard, by doing the best I can to do that, and I'm very glad and very happy about what I have achieved at this time.

01:17:25.870 - 01:17:42.710

Yeah, definitely. And kind of talking about your contributions, I know you were really involved with like activism back in grad school. Lately, Asian American hate has been one of the

01:17:43.160 - 01:17:59.710

big political scenes, how do you feel about the rising awareness of Asian hate in today's world? Right. So I definitely think Asian Americans really should have a strong voice

01:18:00.400 - 01:18:19.280

and bigger appearance in the—really in all aspects of the US society, in terms of we are considered—we will consider then and we can still consider now, as the model minority.

01:18:21.370 - 01:18:42.770

People have a kind of a frame of recognition for us when we talk about Asians, “Okay, you are a good scientist, you’re a good doctor, maybe. But you're quiet, you work hard and do whatever

01:18:42.900 - 01:19:04.590

you do, but in terms of political scene, or activist-activism, that, you know, leave it to other people.” So, I think we, and hopefully the younger people too, people like my daughters, and I'm glad to say

01:19:04.590 - 01:19:23.510

that they are pretty active in terms of fighting for the rights of Asian Americans. But I would definitely encourage now what we call a second or third generation Asian

01:19:23.510 - 01:19:42.330

Americans to be really developed into a strong voice in that we break out of own constraints and be real leaders in our society and our political system.

01:19:43.200 - 01:20:01.530

And hopefully, you can see that it's recognized as a, you know, like just a very lateral contribution or dimension in terms of our abilities, we should be–be

01:20:03.170 - 01:20:23.250

active in many, many areas in the US society. Hm. Okay. Yeah. And then lastly, I have a couple questions about COVID-19. This pandemic has definitely changed a lot of things and you, as a doctor, have

01:20:23.250 - 01:20:42.490

probably experienced some pretty big changes. How has the pandemic impacted the way you interact with the patients and just the healthcare field in general? Right. So from the neurology standpoint, we went

01:20:42.980 - 01:21:01.620

through a period that we did shut down in the early part of last year, and we didn't get a chance to see a lot of patients. We switched a lot of visits to telemedicine and virtual care, which

01:21:03.970 - 01:21:18.700

works to some extent. Unfortunately, in neurology, we have to really examine our patients and bring out through the neurological examination, what are their subtle abnormalities there.

01:21:19.460 - 01:21:35.600

So in a way that affected some of our ability to really be in a better contact with our patients. But now, hopefully, we are getting better.

01:21:35.600 - 01:21:55.620

Also, we understand how to use telemedicine better, so that we could now see our patients both in person or virtually through telemedicine. So that opened up an avenue, that some of our patients live far away, and

01:21:55.620 - 01:22:14.620

they are elderly, that it's difficult for them to come to the Medical Center. So some of these people just would not come to the Medical Center at all to seek a higher level of care. So hopefully, through telemedicine, we can see more of

01:22:14.800 - 01:22:36.590

these elderly and rural patients, in terms of their—some of the more difficult to diagnose, difficult to treat, neurological diseases. We always worry that COVID-19 is not going to

01:22:36.690 - 01:22:55.690

go away, yet we are not, you know, really understand what it could do, and what the vaccine can help the population in defeating COVID-19.

01:22:56.580 - 01:23:15.990

So there's still a lot of education. I think the understanding is that if the patient is resistant to the vaccine, if the doctor actually is able to explain to them,

01:23:16.780 - 01:23:35.230

one on one, person to person, they will understand and they will accept explanations better. And I actually have this experience, you know, one of my patients,

01:23:36.070 - 01:23:55.880

when I asked them if they got vaccinated, he said no. But I said then, “Why did you come all the way—” actually this person came all the way from New Mexico to see me. That's because he said, “I trusted you because I trust that you can

01:23:56.140 - 01:24:13.680

help me.” So I said to him, “If you trust me, then I'm going to tell you to get your vaccination. You would help yourself and help your family and other people too and do you trust me with that?” Then he thought a little bit and

01:24:13.680 - 01:24:29.670

said yes. And then he decided to go get a vaccine that as soon as possible. So through personal communication, I think doctors can do a little

01:24:29.910 - 01:24:43.000

bit more. Yeah, that last part actually got me thinking about another question. I know that there's still plenty of doctors out there who refuse to get vaccinated. How do you feel about that?

01:24:44.270 - 01:25:03.330

Not that many doctors, I think they probably—not that I heard of, you know, see in Houston Methodist system, there are about 5000 doctors. There have been none of them who choose not to get the vaccine.

01:25:04.360 - 01:25:22.730

We used to get the flu vaccine every year. Everybody supposed to get the flu vaccine and now with this vaccine, and looking at the scientific data, that I don't think that the doctors said no (?).

01:25:23.180 - 01:25:40.470

But other health care professionals may have more hesitancy in doing that. So again, it's just hopefully through, you know, personal contacts and explanation.

01:25:42.020 - 01:25:59.540

It still out of—just take Houston Methodist, for example. We have more than 26,000 employees here, and only 150 of them decided not to get the vaccine.

01:26:01.330 - 01:26:18.910

Very, very small percentage of the people who, one way or another, decided not to get the vaccine. So, yes, in the health profession, there are still some people that are resistant, but it's a very small minority.

01:26:20.460 - 01:26:41.700

However, I cannot say that through other, you know, the general population and such, we still have to do a better job in convincing other people to do it. So, I think the medical profession has

01:26:43.160 - 01:27:03.170

the ability and even have the duty to try to convince as many people as possible, even one at a time, so we could hopefully help them be able to keep healthy themselves and also keep other people

01:27:05.670 - 01:27:15.940

healthy. Okay, yeah. Those are honestly all of my questions for this interview. If there's anything else you'd like to share or talk about, you can let me know.

01:27:16.490 - 01:27:34.010

Thank you very much. This is a very good experience. I hope that I have—able to give you a little bit of my life and history, what keeps me going at this time still.

01:27:35.690 - 01:27:48.690

So yes, we could talk a little bit more if you have other separate questions for me later on. Okay? Yeah, I can stop the recording.