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So, today is June 30th, 2022. My name is Karen Siu, and I am interviewing Dr. Esther Shu-Shin Lee on behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. We're so pleased to be documenting your oral history today,

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so thank you so much for joining us. All right [EL: Thank you.]. To begin, when and where were you born, and what was it like in your hometown? Oh, I was born in a very remote, small, sandy, windy town in the

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northwest of China. And I almost died twice, due to the poor nutrition. And my mother vowed to raise me for the Lord, if I survive. And she named me “faith” in Chinese.

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And my ancestral home is Chengdu, where is the famous—where it’s famous for panda bears. Okay, so in your background information, you had noted that you have four siblings. How would you describe the household that you grew up in?

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Oh, I have a loving family situation. And my—both my parents are Christians, with lots of love, support and open-minded. And they're Western-educated, you know, so they spoke English very well, better than mine [laughs].

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And no discriminations against girls, and they treat the girls and boys same, and in all areas—in education, everything—resources, so we—all siblings turned out to be very well-educated and productive citizens.

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That's lovely. What was—what were your parents’ occupations? Oh, my father retired as an army general, and my very talented and Western-educated mother played the piano, sang, and even perform, you know, for benefit concerts, and taught at

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college, and was entrepreneur, actually businesswoman. Can you believe—back to 1960s—early 1960s, late ‘50s—and she developed housing for US servicemen and set up a piano studio for their kids.

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What were some of the values that your parents emphasize in your upbringing? Oh, my father always emphasized in honesty and loyalty. And unlike lots of tradition-traditional father or parents

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who expect academic achievement, he never. And he said, “Health is most important. You better to have abled-body and—for survival.” And my mother always saying, “Ask God for wisdom, like King

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Solomon, and be smart and courageous, and—like Queen Esther.” That's why she gave my English name as Esther. I hope I have lived up with that. And in addition, she required us, not my father, but my mother, required all of

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us married to a Christian. That's a prerequisite. Doesn't matter the background, or family, whatever. Must be Christian. Wow, that's great to know where your name came from.

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[EL: Yeah.] So, you were born in Chengdu, China. When did you move to Taiwan, and how was the move for you? Oh, my family, the whole family, retreated to Taiwan from mainland China, with the Nationalist Government, due to the—because

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like I said, my father was, you know, army general. And so, the Communist China occupied China. So, we retreated to Taiwan by a Navy ship in 1949, when I was about five year-old.

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What elementary school did you attend? Well, I attended three rural elementary schools in three different cities [laughs], you know? So, I don't want to bore people with the location or geography, but

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anyway, some of my classmates were b—I mean, barefoot, you know? And so, it's a—you can say, very primitive, and we always walked to school, you know, through the rice paddles—paddies, you know, field, all that kind of—

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What are some favorite childhood memories you have of–of school, friends, or family? Things like—like I said, I had a very happy childhood. And since I was well-liked by teachers and the classmates,

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and—but I do remember, my legs were shaky, very shaky, when I was first assigned to lead the national anthem for the morning—school morning, you know, what do you call—exercise or whatever, on a very high-raised platform in fifth grade.

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And my older sister often told me about a funny story during my first grade. And one day, my mother sent her to buy some bananas. And I tagged along.

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She was about five years older than I was, so first grade, I was maybe six, then she was 11, and—11 year old, or 12. And I helped the vendor to get rid of the flies when she was doing the selection or bargaining or whatever.

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And I was reluctant to leave after she paid for the bananas, because I want to get more fruit. I love fruit, even up to now. And she told me that we have no money left for the fruit.

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So finally, I left her with her. And—but murmuring, “When I grow up, I will marry a fruit vendor.” That's my solution for life. Now, I am a wife of a vegetable gardener.

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Of course, it’s retired, okay? So we have a lot of fruits and a lot of vegetables. And we even grow, you know, persimmons, you name it. Fruits in the backyard, okay?

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That's a lovely story. [laughs] Isn't that funny? Okay, so I've–I've read about your passion playing piano as a young girl, which has continued today.

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And you very kindly sent us a video of you playing Chopin’s “Revolutionary Etude.” Could you talk about your experiences learning piano as a young girl? Well, like I said, you know, I was pretty active girl.

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Before third grade, I was more like a tomboy. And I often got into trouble fighting. I mean, literally fighting with the neighborhood boys. Not girls. For so-called “justice,” or “fairness; no fair.” And

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I came up with my fists. And so, I often get into trouble in the neighborhood. And my mother, in order to tame me, like a typical lady, okay, or girl—she always had been ladylike, okay?

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So, my mother sent me to dance lessons, but no luck, okay? I was too chubby, too heavy. So the teacher just discharged me right away, saying, “You're too heavy to jump up.” So, I said, “Okay.” And then, my mother was not discouraged.

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In my fifth grade class, there was a so-called “privileged” student, whose parents who were working in Hong Kong, and she and her older sister, for some reason, stayed in Chi—in Taiwan alone. And they had an imported piano.

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At that time, you know, you only can find a piano from overseas. But no one could give them lessons. So, I recommend, volunteer my mother, whose minor was music in Ginling—you probably heard of Ginling Woman University or College

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in Nanjing. Instead of charging them for tuition, mother and I could practice piano, daily, in their house. Unfortunately, they moved to Hong Kong a year later. So, my compassion for piano—playing the piano was so strong,

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that I had to overcome many, many obstacles to get to 30 minutes of practice daily. And literally, I can write a book about my journey of piano practice. And—but I don't think people are interested in that part of my story.

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And then, so, three years later, my parents finally could afford an imported piano. That’s another long story. Because we were not affluent, you know.

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In the following five years, I was committed to piano practice at the expense of any school leisure activities, such as reading novel, or going to the movies with my classmates, and my time basically just divided between schoolwork, piano practice, and the Sunday church

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activities. At that time, the hymns, “Living for Jesus” and “Have Thy Way Lord” have became my guiding songs throughout my exciting life. But I like to add, I really appreciate that my parents and my

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siblings put up with my long hours of practice. They really suffered a lot. I don't know whether you’re a pianist or not, but, you know, to prepare for concerts or performance, you got to practice repeatedly, you know?

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And in retrospect, I really feel sorry for them suffering at my practice. Yes, I play piano as well. So, I–I relate to this.

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Right? And espe—think about it’s not in huge–huge house, or no insulated room. Yeah, all that. Yeah, it's a lot. Okay, so on to the next question.

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So, you've noted that you initially wanted to become a medical doctor and a concert pianist. [EL: laughs] But after you did not pass the test for medical school at National Taiwan University, you ended up majoring in Education at the National Taiwan Normal

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University. Why did you end up choosing education as your major? No choice. You know, not by choice. Because let me explain, at that time—this is a part of history, and—of the society in Taiwan.

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The college entrance examination was different from that of today in Taiwan. There were only very few universities you can attend, and there were only three areas a high school graduate could select and prepare for the exam. For the only one medical school in Taiwan,

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students—that’s National Taiwan University, and the students have to choose the area C, or division C, which are focused on science. That include biology, animal science, and chemistry, and so forth.

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And I was so confident, because I thought, you know, I was a good student in high school, in the best girls’ high school—First Girls High School in Taipei. And I was so confident that my first choice—medical school. So, I did not pay much attention to—for my second or third

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choices of discipline under the area or division C. Yet, I failed, and ended up in National Taiwan—National University without a choice. So, it was terrible experience, setback.

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And–and I tried to come back and take it again. But no luck. I mean, no courage to do that [laughs]. So, thinking back to your time at

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National Taiwan Normal University, what were some defining moments that you had? Not really, but I have to say, at–at least that those courses I took helped me a great deal in many practical ways. Of course, I took some pre-med courses: chemistry, biochemistry,

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you know, biology, advanced—you name it—to prepare for medical school, hopefully to the US. But I also took other courses: education, you know, so—which is very practical, such as raising kids and family life, which I really appreciate.

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How was it for you becoming a concert pianist, winning the national—nationwide piano competition at twenty years old? In most of the time, I think just by recognition and invitation, when people recognize my skills, they invite me to perform,

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and—even solo, or with a concert, or—and I had several solo, you know, concerts, too. Benefit concerts. And—not making profits, basically.

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But my last one, farewell concert, raised money for my voyage—journey to the US to buy airline tickets. Because at that time, you know, a lot of foreign students couldn’t afford the airline ticket.

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They had to take the ship, you know? Not cruise ship, okay? Cargo ship, to come here. But I was lucky, and I was able to raise money,

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and—for my voyage to come to the US. Did you experience any stage fright when you performed? No, except that fifth grade experience. I told you, my legs were shaking, you know?

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And—when I was leading the national anthem—and my mother, earlier—that was fifth grade. My mother always recorded. Then, when I was about eight year old, I was so calm and confident when I was reciting chapter

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two of the book of Luke, about Jesus’ birth, for church’s Christmas gathering. So, in the—everybody—adults compliment, say, “Little Esther was not scared at all.

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No, she was so confident.” And I will—I remember my mother—well, we were, like I said, not affluent by all means, but she had make a velvet, red suit for me. Top and the pants.

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And I still remember that beautiful, you know, set of clothes. That's great. So, how was it balancing being a concert pianist and your undergraduate education? It's just like in high school, you know?

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It's very demanding, like Taiwan First Girls High School, and my time in college was also divided just among, you know, piano practice, giv—oh, giving piano lessons to earn some extra money. And I loved to wear nice clothes and perform, you know, nice

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outfit, you know, evening gown. So, I gave piano lessons. And also schoolwork, and I remember vividly that I asked myself one day if I really wanted to be a

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concert pianist while I was unpacking and repacking for the next trip. I just felt tired. That was a, sort of, pretty enlightening moment,

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you know? But at that time, I was still in college. Right, so moving on to your graduate education and immigration to the US, when did you move to the US, and how and why did it happen?

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I came to the US in 1967 as a foreign student, after passing the univ—passing the government’s very rigorous requirements, including passing TOEFL English exam, and then receiving a scholarship or assistantship from a US

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university. If a student could not get or receive a financial assistance from a American University, he or she had to pass a very tough government-sponsored go-abroad examination.

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At that time, I was still hoping to enter, like I said, a medical school in the US, eventually. So, with some pre-med school, I took during my college, yet I only got—again, isn't that funny?

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I got assistantship from Northern Illinois University majoring in education again. Isn't that strange? That's my fate, I guess.

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My destiny. How was it for you attending Northern Illinois University for your Masters, then Purdue for your PhD, in comparison to National Taiwan Normal University?

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Not much differences regarding the system, but of course, language and the culture were certainly the major obstacles, even up to now. Often joking, I say, “Well, Kissinger, such a famous scholars or whatever, but he still speak English with a accent.

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So, I'm not ashamed of my accent.” [laughs] I even tried to record the professor's lectures in the classroom, and—but that didn't work well, because take too much time. And then, you sometime—after you go back to your room, you just

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still couldn't figure out what's going on [laughs]. Did you encounter any other difficulties in transitioning from National Taiwan Normal University to US universities? I think that graduate school—graduate studies at that time in Tai-Taiwan,

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there are not many program—graduate programs. So, you got to come here to get advanced degrees. And I think graduate student—not “I think,” I learned; I observed; I witnessed: graduate programs, graduate studies require

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much higher level of cognitive abilities, and grades are often determined by reports and presentation, instead of only taking test. So, oral and written test are very, very difficult, you can imagine, for foreign students.

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I can hardly say any words, and I could write, but speaking or—it’s hard. Did any family members move with you to the US? No, I was c—I was here by myself.

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But fortunately, I was very lucky that my oldest sister had been here in the US for four years, and working at Purdue University as a librarian while her husband was working on his PhD.

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So, meanwhile, my uncle was Consul General, representing ROC, Taiwan station in Chicago. So, I wasn't really that lonely. And that's why I applied to—for universities located in Indiana and Illinois.

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So, after you finished your master's degree, you married Stanton Yao, who was studying his PhD at Purdue, and then later, to meet your financial needs, you applied–you applied for a doctoral assistantship for a PhD at Purdue.

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Can you talk about these experiences and what it was like to receive your PhD? Honestly, I had no desire to pursue a doctorate degree. Even my NIU, Northern Illinois University, advisor—you know, my father

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encouraged me, toward the end of my Masters studies—I just want to be a housewife. I just want to stay home, you know? And I like to play house, honestly, even up to now. I like every choice in the household, okay?

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And so, originally, Stanton, then my fiancé, told me that he should be able to finish his doctoral PhD a semester after we got married, in the summer 1969. But by April, he told me that he had encountered some dissertation

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problems, which is common, you know, to a lot of students. And so, to ensure that we have enough income, and I applied for an assistantship with the College of Education. Again, education, and—because they gave me money,

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so–so frankly, I told my advisors, Dr. Phyllis Lo (?), that Stanton could not finish up his studies—I mean, he could finish up his study anytime soon, so I need to finish up on my part, my course requirements as fast as possible.

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Then, I could take my thesis with me when we leave Purdue University. So, she laid out my degree plan quickly. And I immediately began my proposal, immediately, for the dissertation, and then took nineteen hours each semester.

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In addition to the thesis, I took French from the—for the foreign language requirement, to meet the foreign language de—requirement. At that time, you need to have foreign language, okay? And—but now, it's not required for doctoral studies.

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But anyway, through the semester of 1969, at the University of Virginia, when—while Stanton was collecting his data for his dissertation, since Purdue did not accept the credits earned at University of Virginia, and I had to

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take a test to pass the foreign language requirement back to campus. So, that's how I tried to manage finishing within two years. What were some other notable memories for you of your graduate education?

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Like I said, I finished up my degree within two years, basically. So, I remember I drank a lot of coffee, okay? And walking around a huge campus in the winters, snowing days and nights, was really a challenge.

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You know, graduate education class is normally held in the evening, because of all the public school teachers, you know, after school hours. At that time, I also played, I guess, more or less for the income, you know, reason—for the pipe organ,

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for the University Presbyterian Church. So, every Sunday after two morning services, I normally, usually, just totally collapsed and then need to take a long afternoon nap.

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[laughs] That's what I remember. Yeah. Did you have any mentors? Well, no, sadly.

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And—except a Chinese American professor at NIU. She is not really a mentor, but she was a professor of early childhood education. She advised me to take some courses with her, because of the newly launched Federal Head Start programs.

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At that time, less than thirty percent of women working outside the home. And the—most of the women just had low wage positions, not professional. And he—she pointed out the upcoming realities that knowledge of early childhood education would

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always—or can always apply to my own family, as well as for the employment. So basically, I just didn't—besides my advisors, I had no mentor for studies and career and political

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involvement. And I can share with you maybe more later on, but one day, I remember vividly, even after I was teaching at the University of Houston, currently. One day, I just cried out, I said, “Lord,” Bitterly cried out.

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Literally—bitterly. I said, “I just don’t have anybody to help me, to guide me. Now I have this political decision. I don't know what to do.” And—so,

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once, I was thinking about, you know, to write a book, entitled, God Is My Mentor. What were some challenges when you moved to the US? Did you experience any culture shock?

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Not really, except the language. English is always—English was only required in high school in Taiwan, but not in college. So, I needed to continue English studying, or

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self-study during the college years. So, I can tell you many funny stories about language barriers, if we have time, but initially, I did not feel the culture gaps. Maybe, I think, just as a young person,

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or so-called young, and you just are so excited about being in a such affluent, beautiful country. You had all kinds of dreams. You don't feel any negative

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parts of the society, of your life. But now, after being in the US for more than 55 years, I have learned more about the serious, very serious, cultural differences in many, many areas.

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Especially now, firsthand information from my Caucasian husband [laughs]. I came up with the conclusion—I wish I have time to share with the people later on through YouTube or other programs—that nations, traits of a nation, or character-characteristics of nation,

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reflected by the characteristics of the people. I can almost mirror my husband's personality, not judgmental, just like the nation of America. It's so funny.

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Like, I can write a parallel, just mirror, and—you know, image of those two areas. That's interesting. I will always—I was thinking, I love history, I love sociology, psychology, I have all those backgrounds.

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I want to integrate them together, and to analyze, to understand American society, and—which sometimes, as a historians, they just look one domain, one side. Sociologist, one side.

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But not too many people integrate them together, and—to understand the true America and true Americans. Did you experience any racism in school, in the workplace, or in the community in general?

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Not in schools, but back to the ‘60 and ‘70s, the racism was more targeting the Black [people]. Not the Asians. We’re so minor. We’re so few, you know?

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If you know the history, you know since 1882, the Exclusion Act against the Chinese immigrants, so basically, there's no legal immigrants from China for almost 80 years. So, when people see your Asian face, it’s pretty

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exotic, sometimes, you know [laughs]? People just excited. So, they're very nice and helpful, even though that's—they do have a stereotypes of Chinese, you know?

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That’s inevitable. But personally, I experienced more sexism than racism during the job hunting in spring 1971. And later, in the workplace, both racism and sexism

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became more subtle, I think mainly because of the competitions. Okay, I think we'll get more into that when we move into some career questions. [EL: Yes.] But for now, what was your first job after completing

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your PhD? I didn’t work full time after I earned my PhD, because I always want to be a housewife. And for four years, because I just enjoy my housewife, I

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play house, you know, I didn’t intend to pursue my PhD. And—but later on, I can tell you why it changed my original interest to play house, okay. When did you move to Houston and become an assistant professor with the University of

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Houston, Clear City? Stanton and I both finished our PhD in June 1971, but he couldn't find a job until February ‘72 with the Lockheed Martin in Johnson Space Center, Clear Lake, Houston.

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So, at that time, our first daughter was less than three months old. That's in February 1972. And we had no choice except accepting the offer. So, that's why we ended up in Houston.

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How was it for you, being a housewife and mother to two daughters, and becoming a professor? Well, like I said, I just love to be a mother and housewife. And I've been there, I mean, to do—to play that role for more than three years.

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But the demise of my father inspired me to launch a career. It's a long, sad story. Certainly, it has changed my entire life. And consequently, I was named Outstanding Young

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Woman and then received the Presidential Achievement Award from President Reagan within years. And maybe I can elaborate a little bit about my father's expectation.

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Like I said, he's—he was a very open-minded father. And he expect girls, just like boys—I’m sorry. [KS: No, that’s okay. Take your time.] And he

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encouraged me to work on my PhD. I didn't obey him initially. But I finished, and I stayed home. And after he retired, thirty years after I stayed home,

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and—he can visit us, and then he said, “Why don't you work?” I said, “No, I'm happy with the two kids. And I enjoy my life being a housewife.” And he said, “You're wasting your talent.”

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After that, just two months later, he passed away. So, I start looking for job. And I got it. That’s that. Thank you so much for sharing that moving story

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with your father. [EL: I’m sorry. Go ahead.] How was it for you moving to and living in Houston?

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And we just—like I said, we moved in the spring of 1972. Then I became, you know, assistant—I mean, I look for job. My father passed away, I look for job. So, in retrospect, I was so mad with

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God. I said, “My father was only 63, short after he's retired.” And I said, “It's not fair. He didn't even enjoy his life.” And here, you know, he's gone. And I was—just like a psychologist say, “You’re angry, or denial,”

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so I was angry with God. But now, it took me so many years to realize his death, his demise, has a purpose in my life. So, four years after becoming an assistant professor, you became

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a tenured associate professor. And then in 1992, you resigned, due to government appointments. Can you talk a little bit about these government appointments that led to your resignation? And how was the transition from professor to full-time

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government political work? Yeah, usually professorship requires, as you know, to focus on, concentrate, a certain area as an expert. And the more prestigious universities expect more concentration, I

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mean professors’ concentration in very narrow field. However, my academic path just did not shape me as an expert, even though I tried. And for various reasons, of—or incidents, or events,

00:36:19.650 - 00:36:39.250

my teaching responsibility, or assignments, often present unexpected challenges and led me to a broader scope of academic activities. For example, like, when I was first hired by UH-Clear Lake as an assistant professor, you know what?

00:36:39.840 - 00:36:59.460

They asked me to teach elementary school. Teacher matters (?) which I had no training for. And I had no knowledge about elementary school in the US. And—but because of the enrollment increase, so

00:36:59.760 - 00:37:09.070

they couldn't find a professor. So, they said, “Okay, why don't you just a team—teach with another professor. You have the second section. She has the first section.

00:37:09.250 - 00:37:27.380

She has a textbook, handout, everything ready. You just, you know, follow her.” So, I basically was her, you know—in—what do you call—interns, or apprentice, just follow her. So, I learned about elementary education.

00:37:27.790 - 00:37:42.470

That helped my children and helped my future career. And then also, I–I was led to multicultural education, which—also, I didn't expect, and the department chair was teaching multicultural education.

00:37:43.140 - 00:37:59.740

He—she was a Hispanic professor, and—but she later get cancer, so no one could take over. So, she asked me, just because of my face, I think, [laughs] my ethnic background. So, she said, “Why don't you teach multicultural, you know?

00:37:59.960 - 00:38:18.440

Take over my course, Acculturation Through Education.” I think every Education teach—major has to—I mean, graduate student, had to take that. So, I did. But because of that, I had to go through all the collections of different ethnic groups.

00:38:19.200 - 00:38:35.840

I study all the minorities in the US, their history, their political, their social issues, everything. So, that's why I learned so much about American politics, American racial discrimination, the

00:38:36.540 - 00:38:51.200

slavery, and everything. So, I became more like a generalist, with a very broad scope of teaching and research experiences, which is not my choice.

00:38:51.660 - 00:39:09.370

But again, it's just what happened, shaping my career path. And in addition, honestly, I prefer to see the visible impact of my efforts. When you serve as a government work or position,

00:39:10.810 - 00:39:29.860

either in a long term or short term—and the researchers—I don't mean to downgrade professors, you are in an ivory tower, you expect—some come later, some people will find the significance of your research, I mean, especially in humanities or social science.

00:39:30.240 - 00:39:45.990

Not like the–the CHIPS development, you can have immediate impact in industry or in national security. But not in our field. So, I like to see immediate impact on people or

00:39:46.380 - 00:40:05.590

changes in our society. So, you've been devoted to serving people throughout your life, establishing, organizing, and participating in many political community organizations. Can you tell us about your work for the Organization of Chinese

00:40:05.590 - 00:40:24.130

Americans and the Organization of Chinese American Women in Houston? Yes, and could I—add that—go back a little bit, it just dawned on me, you know? And the professorship—back to the professorship. And we often work along in a small group or team, you

00:40:25.580 - 00:40:44.970

know, and—but on the contrary, the government employment requires more managerial skills for much larger group, or constituents, and the budgets. Okay, now, [laughs] I’m answering your question. I'm sorry. Okay. For the organization, okay, like I

00:40:45.950 - 00:41:03.800

said, as a child, I always fighting for fairness, justice, okay? Even with the boys, I was not afraid of them. And so, during the 1970s,

00:41:05.670 - 00:41:21.680

especially ‘79, when Jimmy Carter recognized Red—we call Red China, mainland China, but most of us, the students, are immigrants, new immigrants, came from Taiwan, Republic of China. So, a lot of people went on the street to protest.

00:41:23.280 - 00:41:40.790

But like I said, as a professor of multicultural education, I fully understood the importance of the political muscle of minorities, and immigrants, as related to their motherland, and learned of the successful political involvement of the Jews—Jewish Americans.

00:41:41.410 - 00:41:57.770

You know, so I contacted OCA organization, Organization of Chinese American, with its headquarters in Washington, DC, and established the Houston chapter. I asked a American Born Chinese, Mr.

00:41:58.150 - 00:42:11.520

(?), willing to bring a NASA employee to serve as the first president. Later, I was also recruited by OCAW—they’re a women group—for forming a Houston chapter.

00:42:12.060 - 00:42:30.630

And the formation of both chapters is fully documented, I think, in your library, Fondren library, as well as the FNPL political website. And so, you can have complete minutes, agenda,

00:42:31.840 - 00:42:52.410

everything, for those two organizations. Thank you for that. So, what are you proudest of in your long career of political community organizing? Well, I know it's not easy for me to

00:42:52.710 - 00:43:09.860

answer, and for people, probably, to understand the whole picture. But I would say, probably the impact—the results and impact of my congressional race. Although I lost by a narrow margin with my congressional campaign in 1992,

00:43:09.860 - 00:43:25.810

in Houston, but I have inspired and boosted many other Asian Americans’ confidence in their potential political endeavors. I was proud of my “fight,” so-called, unquote, okay—quote,

00:43:26.520 - 00:43:43.180

unquote. And pleased with the impact in the following years, because many Chinese American community leaders who took part in my campaign and the fundraising efforts, became involved in partisan politics, and made a great stride.

00:43:43.700 - 00:44:02.090

They finally realized that was possible to run and even to win an election. And prior to my campaign, there were only four Asian American congressmen, including those in Hawaii, which had very unique political environment.

00:44:02.480 - 00:44:18.590

Among those four, they were Japanese Americans from California and India. But Japanese participation has their own history. Well, that's not the scope of today's discussion, but people can Google that. What they experienced during World War Two, okay?

00:44:19.670 - 00:44:33.050

But after 1993, a total of 16 Pacific—Asian Pacific American congressperson were elected. That's a wonderful record. In addition, there are quite a few APA public

00:44:35.010 - 00:44:47.960

officeholders throughout the US. In the year of 2020, there were 12 Asian Pacific American running for statewide office in Texas. I mean, in Texas only.

00:44:48.810 - 00:45:08.580

In the state of Texas, a Houston immigrant lawyer, you probably know that, Gordon Quan, later was elected to the City Council in 1999. And he became, you know, the—at-large council member and also Houston mayor Pro-Tem in 2002,

00:45:08.970 - 00:45:21.960

and also Dr. Martha Wong was also elected to the Texas House of Representatives in 2002. And recently, the eighth-term state

00:45:21.960 - 00:45:36.370

senator, Mrs. Ng Chan Barden (?) from Dallas, also recognized my inspiration to her political pursuit, at her November 2021 fundraising event in Houston.

00:45:37.160 - 00:45:57.050

So, as I predicted and promised during my campaign, you know, it did have the ripple effect in the political arena. Possibly those lessons, my lessons, paved the road for those—to future American Houston councilpersons

00:45:58.370 - 00:46:14.660

and one Texas State Representative. They all American born, of course, no language barrier. At the national level, Chinese Americans are no longer solely exploited by the Democratic Party, and now also recognized by the Republican

00:46:14.660 - 00:46:33.250

Party. In 2000, Republican President Bush had appointed one Chinese and one Japanese American cabinet members, you know, Elaine Chao, and Secretary Norman Mineta, who just passed recently.

00:46:34.390 - 00:46:50.610

But previous administration, no such, you know, appointment. Even now, we don't have anybody appointed by Democrats at the cabinet levels. And I was the first full-time—and also, again, I was the

00:46:50.740 - 00:47:08.080

first full-time salary Asian American campaign staff ever appointed by a presidential campaign headquarters, besides my own congressional campaign. So, I believe it was a good opportunity for me to

00:47:08.080 - 00:47:26.620

mobilize and encourage Asian Pacific Americans for, at that time, President Bush-Quayle’s re-election. And previously, no other presidential campaign ever had a paid staff in charge of Asian Pacific American voting affairs.

00:47:27.090 - 00:47:47.480

I was the first one. In 1988, Cindy Daub, the Korean wife of a congressman, oversaw the Asian Pacific American voters as a volunteer only, okay? When did you return to teaching in higher education and why did you decide to

00:47:47.480 - 00:48:05.230

return? Oh, the political climate, you know, changed, and no more political appointments, and in 1992, after Clinton won the election, I was told by Democrats, said, “There's no R people here.

00:48:05.620 - 00:48:25.250

They're all D.” That means that, “You Republican, get out of here,” okay? And my tenured position at the UH-Clear Lake was filled with another person. And again, I was hoping to resume my full-time housewife with that—and empty nester in Houston.

00:48:26.970 - 00:48:40.960

It didn't work out. Without third parties–third parties’ involvement, my nearly 30-year marriage ended. And for financial reasons, needs, I started searching for

00:48:41.020 - 00:48:59.050

university positions around the whole world, including New Zealand, I remember. And thank God's mercy, I was able to return to the Higher Ed and move up to the position beyond my own expectation and imagination.

00:49:03.030 - 00:49:18.180

So, you were a department chair of education at DePauw University and then the Dean of the graduate school at Troy University, Montgomery, until your retirement in 2006. What were some highlights of your career in higher education?

00:49:19.570 - 00:49:35.520

Well, I’m—I was proud to be appointed by President Bush to the Fulbright Scholarship Board. Serve—and also serve on the Teacher Education Committee of Indiana Professional Standard Board, and I was an examiner of

00:49:35.580 - 00:49:52.710

National—board examiner of National Council for Accreditation of Teacher Education, which is entity—a lot of people is familiar with that in the education circle. And it's a very prestigious entity, or authority, to ensure the

00:49:52.710 - 00:50:08.230

quality of all US teacher education programs. And I was named the outstanding alumni by my two alma maters. And also, I remember my Fulbright trip to visit India.

00:50:08.810 - 00:50:26.970

Thirteen cities in 1986, which helped me a lot, because at that time, I knew we will have a lots of immigrants from India. Throughout your teaching and mentoring experience, what do you think is the

00:50:27.050 - 00:50:39.740

guidance most needed by students? I think the critical thinking, especially now, with today's bombarded with fake news and misinformation. And also work ethics.

00:50:41.920 - 00:51:01.770

And—I think at all level, and also the corruptions is incredible. We often criticize the third-world countries, but we are one of them. During your time at these universities, you served the public in a number of

00:51:01.820 - 00:51:21.360

appointments, including being appointed by Governor Mike Huckabee of Arkansas, to serve on the Early Childhood Education Commission, and then later serving on the National Advisory Committee on violence against women in the US Department of Justice. So I'd like to ask, what were some defining moments for you

00:51:21.700 - 00:51:38.570

during these public appointments? Well, see, okay, let me just go back to the earlier time, you know, for the Houston local, and the police advisory committee, and the mayoral advisory committee that laid the foundation

00:51:39.800 - 00:51:58.820

for a lot of later Asian Pacific leaders, like Helen Chen’s visibility and influence in the mayor's office. And so—and at the state, the Texas Asian Republican Caucus, which later became, you know, Texas

00:51:59.010 - 00:52:16.560

Asian Assembly, also had a greater influence. And also, I was appointed by Governor Clements, Willy Clements, to serve on the Board of Pardons and Parole Board. And like I said, for some reason, I’m always fighting for

00:52:16.910 - 00:52:31.420

unfairness, or fighting for justice. So, even though it's not my academic expertise, but I'm always got into that area, for some reason. It’s very interesting, you know, path.

00:52:32.460 - 00:52:50.130

But at the national level, and my 1992, of course, congressional campaign, and the Bush-Quayle–Bush-Quayle’s campaign staff set the record of Asian Pacific American delegation and alternates at the GOP—National GOP convention.

00:52:51.490 - 00:53:09.220

And after I helped the campaign in Washington, DC, I was thinking, you know, to write a book about dirty American politics. But I decided I better not complain too much, for security,

00:53:09.220 - 00:53:23.380

safety reason [laughs], even though it's in America, okay? How did you become involved in the GOP, like being recruited into Reagan's re-election campaign?

00:53:24.170 - 00:53:43.020

Oh, I'm sorry, I also forgot to add one thing, you know. I'm sorry. And—but I talked about local, state, national level, but for my own self, the commission and—the commission and international studies, and of the

00:53:44.200 - 00:54:00.470

Immigration Committee, which is sub-cabinet level, and—gave me the opportunity to meet with the heads of states and worldwide leaders. And so, that helped a lot. And also, my official trips to Russia, South Africa,

00:54:01.520 - 00:54:15.220

by invitation—and Korea, actually, and—all broadened my knowledge of international affairs. So, those things, like I said, I'm not an expert in anything, but I'm a generalist.

00:54:17.170 - 00:54:34.900

Okay, I'm sorry. Your next question, you asked me—become involved [KS: In the GOP.] Oh, in the GOP. Okay. That's a very interesting story, because it's a little bit ironic, I have to say.

00:54:35.790 - 00:54:52.940

And recognized my leadership in a small organization of Chinese American and—Chinese American women involvement. A lady named Miss Esther Kee, a Chinese American volunteer of the National Democrat Committee, contact me in

00:54:53.000 - 00:55:07.650

February 1980. And Miss Kee was trying to recruit me to support President Carter's reelection. Initially, I was so flattered and excited by such an offer

00:55:07.890 - 00:55:26.600

to become an appointee—appointed and super—what they call is the superdelegate to the National Democratic Convention, I took the offer and my decision seriously. To make sure that the philosophy of the Democrat Party was

00:55:26.660 - 00:55:46.290

consistent with mine, I went to the university library to study the platform of both the Democratic and Republican parties. At the end, I realized that the Democrat Party is not the one for me. So, I decided take part in the Republican

00:55:46.890 - 00:56:06.620

Party from ground zero, without any connection and acknowledge. So basically, the Democrats recruited me to the Republican Party [laughs], right? So, one day—but I had no channel, no way, okay? No connection. So, one day, I learned from the local newspaper that the Bay

00:56:06.720 - 00:56:24.260

Area Republican Women's Club was going to have a meeting, and the contact person is Vicki Hapke. So, I called Vicki, who quickly paid a home visit with a lot of books about the philosophy of the party, and party leaders

00:56:24.300 - 00:56:41.470

like President Reagan, supply ch—supply side economy, and—by Jack Kemp, and so forth. She immediately recruited me and led me to the Reagan reelection campaign. Since then, Vicki had become my political mentor for a

00:56:41.510 - 00:57:02.080

short period of time, until she relocated to another state. All my GOP involvement in chronological order, again, can be found in your library—Fondren Library, and also FNPL website. So, you were elected as a delegate to the senatorial district number 11

00:57:02.740 - 00:57:17.150

convention and the state convention after two years of active involvement in the Republican Party in 1982. How was it for you being elected into this position? It's a learning, you know, process.

00:57:17.650 - 00:57:33.690

Everything is new to me. And serving on my Resolution Committee, which is policy making committee in the—at the state level, because the recent US Supreme Court decision on abortion, so that reminds me of my

00:57:33.750 - 00:57:53.920

experience back then. And I remember serving on the committee, and they will say issue about abortion. And I–I was for the decision—resolution—woman could have legal abortion under three conditions, you know:

00:57:53.920 - 00:58:10.810

women’s life in danger, and victim of rapes and incest. But I lost. My committee decided to have absolutely no abortion allowed. So—but the process is very interesting.

00:58:11.310 - 00:58:23.340

You can have a minority report. So, I was more or less the lone speaker, okay? So, I was the minority. So, at the convention, they presented the committee's decision.

00:58:23.770 - 00:58:34.560

Of course, majority say, “No abortion, period. But here's a minority report from Dr. Esther Lee Yao.” So, I went up to the stage.

00:58:35.000 - 00:58:54.820

So, I say, “My position is under those three conditions, exceptions. The reason—" then I started elaborating, and I say, “Think about if your daughter, or your wife being raped,” you know. And then I was stopped right away, because that's against the rule.

00:58:55.790 - 00:59:07.260

As a minority report, or any report, you just report the result. You don't have to elaborate the rationale, explain. So, they say, “Esther, you don't need to explain. You cannot explain.

00:59:08.190 - 00:59:22.540

Get down,” basically. [laughs] So, that's a good lesson. But you know what? They did include those three conditions. Because my thought.

00:59:24.170 - 00:59:42.920

I don't know solely because of my thought, maybe they had beared in mind. They did think, after I point out to say, “How about your wife, your daughters?” You know, and “in that situation.” I didn't finish up a whole story, because I was stopped. But I think they got the point.

00:59:43.540 - 01:00:00.320

So, they adopt that resolution back to 1984. So, you noted that at this time, you were also involved in the Asian Republican groups at the national level. Can you talk about these groups, and what were some of the group–what were some of

01:00:00.320 - 01:00:15.800

these groups, and what were some of the goals and policies that they were advocating for? Well, I don't mean to be critical. But I will say a lot of people have different motives

01:00:16.210 - 01:00:29.820

when they are involved in political, especially even volunteers, okay? Of course, now, it’s purely visible. You can see why people get in-involved in a congressional campaign.

01:00:29.890 - 01:00:45.610

Money. Corruption. All the benefits. But even back to that, the immigrants, they still think they can, you know, increase, enhance their status, social standing in the US.

01:00:45.870 - 01:01:03.180

Not really much in the US, but in the US Asian community or Chinese community, or back to Taiwan. So, most of the organization just [unintelligible], just title on their business card, and show–showing, you know, “I am

01:01:03.580 - 01:01:18.330

Asian Republican Federation,” or “national organization president” or treasurer or board member. So, no grassroots at the local, or connection to the mainstream political network at all.

01:01:18.750 - 01:01:38.360

That's why we had a terrible experience in the 1990—in the…1984 National Convention, GOP convention. And also, that prompted me to organize the Asian

01:01:38.940 - 01:01:58.570

Pacific American groups differently. So, you began to form the Texas Asian American Republican Caucus directly under the state GOP, but that it was challenging to form an Asian Pacific American GOP group due to

01:02:00.660 - 01:02:12.550

ethnic, cultural diversity. Can you talk about these challenges that you've faced in making an Asian Pacific American GOP group? Yeah. As you know, Asian groups are very diverse.

01:02:13.590 - 01:02:31.530

This was the first year of the Asian—1987 was the first year Asian—Texas Asian American Caucus, with the new officer elected in December 27, 1986. Unfortunately, this newly elected group

01:02:34.620 - 01:02:51.650

did not grow well under the first chairman as expected. And so, there's very little information about this group for one year, for the year of ‘87. By the end of ‘87, new officers were elected and I was elected as the

01:02:51.710 - 01:03:05.820

Chair. And Dr. Y. T. Huang of Dallas, as the co-chair. And my top priority was to set up—the challenge, which is set up—to develop the newly formed group as rapidly as possible

01:03:06.680 - 01:03:23.460

and encouraging the members to become involved, not only at local and state level, but also national level, with really records, not just talking, okay? Following my election, I sent out a memo to the executive committee members and the

01:03:23.460 - 01:03:39.490

chairman of each chapter on November 24, ’87 to outline the goals and the task for the upcoming presidential election, 1988. Because normally, immigrants are more interested in the presidential election

01:03:39.710 - 01:03:57.110

than the local election, you know? So, I helped those chapters to get organized. And at the national level, I was involved at the National Republican Asian Assembly’s inaugural conference held in Arlington, Virginia, from

01:03:57.170 - 01:04:15.260

June 14 to 15, ‘87. I was a member of the banquet committee and tried to invite Asian American Texans to attend and even arranged the meeting with the GOP presidential candidates, such as Bob Dole, Senator Bob Dole, and Republican

01:04:15.260 - 01:04:32.880

National Committee—RNC staff, for them. And I look for opportunities for Asian Americans—Asian American Texans, for political appointments at both—in the state—both the state and national levels.

01:04:34.870 - 01:04:53.670

Not just for myself, but all my friends. So, you were appointed by Senator Bob Dole to the Congressional Commission for the Study of International Migration and Cooperative Economic Development, and you were the only Asian American on the commission and

01:04:54.180 - 01:05:10.910

one of–one of two female commissioners. Can you tell us about your work for the commission, as well as what it was like to be the only Asian American and one of two women on the commission? Destiny. For some reason, that's always the case.

01:05:11.220 - 01:05:27.840

I was the only female, only Asian. But it didn't bother me. I don't—I didn't feel—at that time, I didn't feel any difference. And only when people pointed out later on, years later,

01:05:28.520 - 01:05:45.360

and—so, I'm proud of being a pioneer. But I have to say, I bear a great responsibility—a sense of responsibility, or mission, to represent Asian Pacific American community and groups.

01:05:45.760 - 01:06:04.290

So I always behave, okay? I try, you know, even my dress, my mannerism, my knowledge, I want to win people's solid respect, not as a

01:06:04.600 - 01:06:21.710

token appointment. But actually, none of them were a token appointment, because there's no such affirmative action for Asian American to serve on any board or committees, like other minority groups in the US.

01:06:23.160 - 01:06:41.030

So then, did you experience any racism during your political career? Not really, only until the congressional race, my own campaign. And later on, we can talk about that. And maybe, I can talk about my congressional race now, if

01:06:41.030 - 01:06:56.340

you allow it, okay? And the background of my campaign, I was hoping to get a better appointment with Bush's second term that normally is

01:06:56.430 - 01:07:12.770

commemorated with your contribution, and I didn't contribute enough, or in the right way, because I was helping Senator Dole–Senator Dole in the primary. I will explain that if I have chance.

01:07:13.210 - 01:07:30.100

Okay, so for the Bush's first term, I didn't get a good appointment. So, in the early spring 1991, while I was serving President Bush at the Department of Education, which is not good for me, I–I have to say, okay?

01:07:30.510 - 01:07:45.140

Not good enough for me. So I went to Mr. Ron Kaufman, political director of Bush's White House, and ask him for his advice about my role in the upcoming reelection of President Bush.

01:07:45.750 - 01:08:04.960

I ask him if I should stay in Washington, DC, campaign for him, for Bush, or return to Houston, campaign for Bush. And since Bush was—popularity was sky high after victory of Desert Storm, so Rob felt the President will be very safe

01:08:05.080 - 01:08:21.020

to be reelect without any problem. But, unexpectedly, he pointed out that the–the Democrat-controlled congressmen needed more Republicans to support President Bush’s agenda.

01:08:21.690 - 01:08:43.510

So, he suggested that I ran for Congress in Houston. I was—that was a struggle for me, whether I should take Ron’s advice, because I had never thought about running for public office. I prayed and analyzed a lot, after meeting

01:08:44.110 - 01:09:05.110

him. I even retreated to Holiday Inn in Chevy Chase in northwest Washington, DC to seek God's will and guidance. After consulting my family and a church pastor, I decided—finally decided to run, as a calling and a mission, in the summer

01:09:05.270 - 01:09:22.760

of 1991. I felt that it was about time for Chinese Americans to be visible in the national political arena. Like I said, there were no Chinese congressmen at all, especially in the Republican Party. At the time, there was no Chinese congressman, no

01:09:22.760 - 01:09:40.240

representative, nothing, okay? And so, most of the Chinese or Asian Americans elected officials at the state level were most likely, or all—I think all—was affiliated with the Democratic Party, including Japanese Americans

01:09:40.450 - 01:09:54.930

legislators in Congress. So, the purpose of my congressional campaign was not just for personal—not for personal gain at all—interest. Not like today. So many people with that kind of agenda.

01:09:55.550 - 01:10:10.890

But for Asian Americans as a whole. So, my goal was to inspire and galvanize the Asian Americans, particularly the younger generation, regardless of the outcome of my campaign.

01:10:11.540 - 01:10:30.300

I use the analogy of ladder-climbing to symbolize my efforts as the first giant step to reach the political top, regardless of the result. And I was not afraid to lose, because I strongly believe that the foundation I

01:10:30.590 - 01:10:47.510

laid would lead Asian or Chinese Americans to a higher ground, which you have seen. And there were four political advantage at that time to my candidacy. First is redistricting in Texas after 1990 census,

01:10:48.800 - 01:11:04.490

and just three more congressional seats. Number two, in newly-drawn-drawn district consists more middle class and the professional voters than before. And number three, the popularity of an incumbent Republican president.

01:11:04.850 - 01:11:21.610

At that time, Bush, would enhance the victory of Republican candidate. Number four, in 1992, GOP National Convention held in Houston would provide Republican candidates with more media exposure than usual.

01:11:22.460 - 01:11:42.260

So, for the four reasons, I decided to take actions. And within weeks, I resigned from US Department of Education position, and the resume our teaching at the University of Houston, Clear Lake. But before I left the Department of Education, I was invited by the UH-Clear Lake

01:11:42.260 - 01:11:59.760

that summer as their commencement speaker in August. Soon upon my return to Clear Lake, I contacted my friends around the country to organize fundraising events throughout the country in the fall 1991.

01:12:00.080 - 01:12:18.490

Remember, this is nationwide, not just in the state, so you can imagine the impact at the national scale. As a longtime community activist and newspaper weekly columnist with The World Journal, with worldwide circulation, I was able to share

01:12:18.490 - 01:12:31.590

my message at the fundraising events throughout 14 cities in the US, including New York, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Phoenix, Chicago, all those. Dallas and Washington, DC.

01:12:32.420 - 01:12:51.990

And then my reputation as a political activist, at both the state and national levels, also attract and motivate many Chinese immigrants. During the campaign, I pointed out the dire need for Chinese Americans to take part in mainstream politics,

01:12:52.470 - 01:13:06.160

basically historical lessons. Remember, I taught a multicultural education and the facts of having representation in the Congress. I shared my conviction to Chinese Americans’ political

01:13:06.830 - 01:13:22.670

participation and my struggles in the Republican Party with my contributors. I also inform them with a great optimism that I had the support of the Jewish and the Black communities in Houston.

01:13:23.050 - 01:13:43.410

Even though they traditionally vote for the Democrats, they felt a minority congresswoman would better represent them than a white Democrat. And they pledge their support after primary, because during the primary, they have to vote separately. They don't want to be seen by their friends, vote for Republican, you know,

01:13:44.270 - 01:14:03.630

candidates. So, the challenge for me was to win the primary, and then the minority group in the district would vote for me during the general election, where no separate voting places for Democrats or Republicans. Although I cannot guarantee of any victory, I assured my supporters

01:14:04.160 - 01:14:22.560

that my campaign will pave the way for future generations. Indeed, my campaign inspired many Chinese Americans who start running for local, state, and federal offices soon after my close-call defeat. And those candidates finally realized

01:14:23.330 - 01:14:42.530

that it was possible to run and even to win the election. Meanwhile, those Chinese American community leaders who took part in my campaign and fundraising efforts became involved in the politics—in partisan politics and make a great progress.

01:14:43.560 - 01:14:59.290

And in the process, like I said, I returned to Wash—from Washington DC back to Houston, and when I came back, our dining room become converted into a volunteers’ work area—working area.

01:14:59.890 - 01:15:19.010

I hired the leader of the Young Republicans at UH. He was smart and competent to get the campaign organized but was still terminated for dishonesty with the campaign expenses. He was founded to use my campaign funds and spend a ton for his own

01:15:19.390 - 01:15:34.760

congressional campaign. This different district, can you imagine? He later, however, became Congressman Steve Stockman, twice, but was convicted on 23 felony

01:15:35.100 - 01:15:52.440

cards in 2018. Subsequently, he was sentenced to seven, ten—I mean, to serve ten year in prisons—ten years in prisons and was ordered to pay more than one million dollars in restitution.

01:15:53.490 - 01:16:12.410

He was one of the last few people pardoned by President Trump prior to the end of his presidency. After Stockman’s waste of my campaign time and resources, my campaign was quickly recognized—I meant reorganized, by a consultant

01:16:12.440 - 01:16:28.050

firm from Dallas. They hired campaign–campaign manager, a campaign coordinator, and a secretary. With a local Chinese merchant’s generosity, the campaign headquarter moved to one of his empty offices.

01:16:28.860 - 01:16:45.490

Although the campaign was well-organized and operated by the professionals, so-called, the price tag was high. My campaign inspired and encouraged many Chinese American volunteers in Houston, as well as around the nation, like I said.

01:16:46.170 - 01:17:03.010

I want to point out one particular loving, great lady. Her name is Isada Lee of Clear Lake. She worked nearly as a full-time volunteer while my-while my dining room was still constantly filled with local tireless

01:17:03.010 - 01:17:20.300

volunteers. They prepare the mailers. There were signs, and they delivered and appraised the yard signs. Later, on the eve of the election day, the main street in the I-610 loop, I think you are familiar with that area, were

01:17:20.300 - 01:17:36.080

saturated with the—my street signs. Unfortunately, many of them were removed by some people within hours. My opponent was Dolly Madison McKenna, a white investment banker.

01:17:36.980 - 01:17:52.890

She was not a member of any Republican group, did not even live in the district. Her residency in Houston was much shorter than mine. Yet, she had the support of the little white Republican Woman's Club,

01:17:53.520 - 01:18:12.010

including the Bay Area Women's Club, which I had contributed greatly my time, resources, and leadership for various campaign functions for years, obviously. Answer your question, racial background became a major factor

01:18:12.450 - 01:18:28.590

during a competition. At that time, the Capitol Hill Roll Call magazine in Washington, DC pointed out that this congressional primary was unprecedent–unprecedented expensive one in GOP history.

01:18:29.590 - 01:18:49.170

At the end, the difference between McKenna, my opponent, and me was only around twelve hundred votes. Houston Chinese America would have delivered the difference of six hundred votes, if it divided by twelve hundred votes by two, if they had the

01:18:49.170 - 01:19:09.020

faith and commitment to my campaign. A year later, a native young female—before my, you know, campaign, a year later—I mean—I’m sorry, a year earlier, a native young female Chinese American ran for Houston Council, was only received

01:19:09.020 - 01:19:22.710

six percent of the votes. Maybe that's why local Chinese Americans did not expect that I were to make a such close race and felt no need to come out to vote for me, if only six percent.

01:19:24.030 - 01:19:41.630

But from this close race, many Chinese Americans realized that they should not have underestimate their own candidates and political strengths. And the impact in the result, as I briefly said earlier, is

01:19:42.320 - 01:20:00.110

really, you know, I think I—I’m proud of my fight and pleased with the impact in the following years. And as many Asian congressmen, and also many lawmakers, and public elect officials around the country

01:20:00.950 - 01:20:21.550

from local, state, and national level, including our local Gordon Quan as the city mayor, and Martha Wong, and run as a state representative, this all important, okay? But I also reflect about my election—my

01:20:23.580 - 01:20:40.800

campaign. I think that helped other people, as well as myself. I'm too late to do it again, but even though my daughters asked me, you know, right after the defeat, they said, “Are you going to run again?” I said, “No way,” okay?

01:20:41.180 - 01:20:59.390

But I hope those lessons can also be learned by other people. First, I learned, you know, I overtrust campaign professionals’ advice without trusting my own judgment and listening to my own intuition.

01:21:00.370 - 01:21:20.220

Both of my first campaign manager, Steve Stockman, and the subsequent consultants took advantage of my well-funded campaign. Then the campaign strategies adopted by the consultants based on very expensive survey against the immigration might have

01:21:20.700 - 01:21:36.760

damaged my candidacy greatly. The sentiments of anti-Japanese imported car and immigration policy were undoubtedly of bad timing to my race as an Asian immigrant.

01:21:37.160 - 01:21:51.900

So, be careful about the timing, okay? I was portrayed by my opponent as a Japanese immigrant on TV ads. You know, Americans, they don't know the difference between Japanese or—and Korea and Chinese.

01:21:53.100 - 01:22:11.610

And my consultant insists on hiding my Asian face. Face. My face, which is very—I think it's pretty presentable, but no. You don't show on TV, because it's Asian face. And no public appearance, only the radio ads.

01:22:12.760 - 01:22:31.510

Meanwhile, the consultants use a negative for campaign to define my opponent, with the tons, tons of mailers. And this–this tactics was truly against my belief. I'm not that kind of person in personality.

01:22:32.890 - 01:22:54.490

I was only allowed, so-called, to walk with my volunteers in certain prisons and to continue to fundraising milk—making the milk (laughs) fundraising schedule. That's it. I was leading based on the early absentee

01:22:55.370 - 01:23:14.020

voters. I was convinced that that negative campaign and distilled candidacy had a negative impact on voters’ decision toward the end. Recently, I was joking with Bill, my husband, I said, “If—maybe I should have learned from Trump.

01:23:15.100 - 01:23:27.870

You know, at that time, I can challenge it. ‘That's stealing my vote, because of my absentee early-early voting, I was winner, and they stole my votes, (laughs) you know?

01:23:28.020 - 01:23:49.680

During the election day, they probably sent wrong people there.’” But anyway, obviously, my conservative candidacy was well-received initially by the voters until my negative mailers bombarded voters. I should have insisted on my own intuition, instead relied on

01:23:49.680 - 01:24:04.590

the well-paid consultants. As I predicted and promise, the—my-my campaign did have a ripple effect in the political arena. Possible those lessons paved the road for two future

01:24:05.010 - 01:24:18.230

generation—I mean, future American city council, like I said. And also, two future cabinet Asian appointees, and which never happened in other administration. Yeah.

01:24:18.590 - 01:24:31.950

Thank you so much for telling us all that. So, I think for the sake of time, we're gonna skip down to the next section of questions, if that's okay with you? [EL: Yes.] Okay, perfect.

01:24:32.400 - 01:24:51.240

So, how did you educate your children, your daughters, as in, what were some values that you emphasized in your daughters’ upbringing? I think, you know, basically, my ch-ch-children—you

01:24:52.660 - 01:25:11.550

know, I emphasize honesty, integrity, and I encourage them to be independent, and also have a self confident. Remember—I’m an education major, so–so I knew how

01:25:12.110 - 01:25:31.160

to combine the Western and Eastern cultural traits to raise my children to get the merits of both cultures. So, I try to be in the center, you know, instead of just traditional Chinese Americans, or Chi—or

01:25:32.190 - 01:25:48.810

Western, you know, type of child rearing techniques. And I—meanwhile, I provide very healthy diet, regular life, simple life experience, for music, for all kinds of traveling, cheerleading, everything.

01:25:50.160 - 01:26:00.460

And so, very diverse experience. I'm proud of them. I taught them piano lessons. I gave them piano lessons. They won competitions.

01:26:00.910 - 01:26:17.790

So—at the state and–and also local level and play with the symphony orchestra. Because they're winning, you know, first place, you know, of the comp-competition contest—concerto contest.

01:26:18.000 - 01:26:32.700

Yeah. What church do you belong to, and how important has religion been in your life? Well, right now, I'm-I’m just so—I don't belong to any

01:26:32.740 - 01:26:46.010

church, but I attend church with my husband. And it's a rural, small church. It’s not really small. About two hundred. So, it's—yeah, pretty good-sized for the small area.

01:26:46.010 - 01:27:03.640

Uh huh. How was it for you establishing the Space City Chinese School in 1972? Well, the reason I established the Chinese school, because

01:27:04.180 - 01:27:24.360

I always believed Chinese should be able to speak Chinese. I know that's weird. And that-that-that's not updated attitude, but I think if you are Chinese, you better be able to speak Chinese. So, even though my daughter was only three year old, but I

01:27:24.410 - 01:27:42.270

decided to start a Chinese school for the other older children who don't—who didn't speak Chinese at all. And–and also, as a Christian, I always want to spread the gospel. So, I use that as a-a channel

01:27:43.520 - 01:28:01.180

to channel and share my blessings with those people, with those kids. So, we have singing and storytelling—Bible storytelling in Chinese, singing in Chinese. And started in my apartment, in our two-bedroom apartment for several months,

01:28:01.530 - 01:28:19.740

until we moved to Sagemont (?), then we move—then we relocate the Chinese. First, this is something I'm very, very proud of. The first Chinese school in America—weekend Chinese school.

01:28:20.210 - 01:28:34.040

Because the other Chinese school always held in Chinatown and after school daily, normally. Daily after school program. But as you speak, Chin—Cantonese, not Mandarin, but this is

01:28:34.210 - 01:28:48.170

different. And as a result, you can see the impact. Now, we have so many Chinese schools around the country. Thousands. Thousands. And now my niece and nephews, they're able to speak Chinese fluently,

01:28:48.580 - 01:29:07.790

I think because of the work of Chinese schools. So–so never understand—underestimate a personal small effort and just planting the seeds. And now, it’s such a big thing, but I can claim proudly that's the

01:29:07.880 - 01:29:26.250

first one. And we have a record on that. Can you tell us about some other non-political community organizations, events, or activities that you've been a part of? Oh, they're a lot, okay [laughs]?

01:29:26.870 - 01:29:41.270

How much time we have? I don't know you-you-your schedule, you know, but I think it's hard for me to record. Women's Voters League and the Minority Women's group, even though

01:29:42.080 - 01:30:02.200

after I returned from DC, during my un-unemployment time, and I work for AARP. And so—I’ve been involved in musical group and early along with the Chinese school, we have a parent discussion

01:30:02.240 - 01:30:18.960

group, to talk about how do we raise kids in a bicultural, bilingual environment back to them, okay? Remember that’s about fifty years ago. And in Clear Lake, we have a family discussion group, which

01:30:18.960 - 01:30:34.940

is very good. So, I'm proud of that too. And so—and we also start our church—I mean, bible study in our home. Started—that laid the foundation for Clear-Clear Lake

01:30:35.050 - 01:30:51.900

Chinese School—or Clear Lake Chinese church, and I started a Bible study from our house. At that time in Clear Lake, we only have two–two Christian families, Herbert King and Peggy Herbert King, and Cynthia

01:30:52.880 - 01:31:10.410

and Ronald Chang. And they all deceased now. And so–so, we have the biweekly bible study in our house. In order to attract local Chinese Americans, I prepared dian

01:31:10.410 - 01:31:25.330

xin (?) each time, because at that time no other places, you can find the Chinese dian xin (?) except the—in the Yao’s family. So, I prepare all kinds of dian xin. I can do all dian xin, except oil sticks, youtiao.

01:31:26.450 - 01:31:39.480

But now I know how to make youtiao, you know, years later, so. So, a lots of things going on. But like I said, I know we're running out of time.

01:31:40.940 - 01:31:52.620

So, I don't know, you know, your plan, or your priority. Let's continue going through the questions, if that's okay with you. [EL: Yeah, sure.] Perfect, thank you.

01:31:53.620 - 01:32:07.050

So, what do you do for relaxation? What have you been doing since your retirement? Oh, wow. Yeah, that-that-that does—that’s a good remark—retirement and before and after.

01:32:07.090 - 01:32:21.350

Okay. During my work, while I was working, my relaxation is changing tasks. You just switch from one thing to other. When I was exhausted, tired, really tired, I just do the cooking, or

01:32:21.350 - 01:32:31.640

swapping the floor. I never had a helper. That's the promise I gave to Stanton. He said, “If you want to work,” because he against—in the beginning, he was against for

01:32:31.640 - 01:32:50.560

me to work, even though I told you, my father's demise caused me to look for job. And he said, “If you go out and work, then I will divorce you” you know. And so, under that kind of—yeah, that's kind of the mentality. And so, but anyway, so I said, “I will not jeopardize—my

01:32:51.990 - 01:33:05.540

work will not jeopardize any life you have right now. Your meals, three meals on time. Your house will be clean, children be taken care. You don't have to do any extra.” He didn't even know how to change a diaper, okay?

01:33:06.120 - 01:33:21.030

So but— at that time, that's the agreement. So, I just do it. I did that, and changing task is relaxation for me. Wow, that's so admirable.

01:33:21.280 - 01:33:36.960

So he said, “If you don't—you cannot handle it. Don't work. Don't have a volunteer. You got to meet your own basic requirement, responsibilities.” So—oh, I-I-I-I supervise my children's piano less—practice

01:33:38.580 - 01:33:50.010

every day. After school. I picked them up. They'd never been a daycare center. And I tried to schedule, you know, as a professor, that's the benefit. I teach nine hours.

01:33:50.570 - 01:34:06.500

I taught nine hours, and I keep six hours office hour. So, like I said, the graduate school students are mainly in the after school. That means in the evening or late afternoon, so I always take my children to school,

01:34:06.770 - 01:34:20.860

pick them up. That's just like normal. For them, I'm not a working mother. I was just like a full-time mother and pick them up, and have a snack, and practice piano, study the Chinese, and the routine.

01:34:22.010 - 01:34:38.880

Yeah. And then, I went to school—university to teach in the evening. And if I don't—didn’t have evening class, then I will wor-work with them until eight o'clock and to bed. Then, I work for another three hours or so.

01:34:41.260 - 01:34:56.360

[KS: Wow. Wow.] That's me. And never–never window shopping and cut my own hair, even nowadays, you know? And then, perm my own hair, and cut the whole family's hair, actually. My children hate it. Girls.

01:34:56.360 - 01:35:13.860

You know girls. And—but a crew-cut haircut is for my—for Stanton. So, no problem. Okay, so shifting a little bit, the political environment for Asian American women

01:35:13.890 - 01:35:32.150

is quite different today compared to the ‘80s, for instance. What are some of the advantages you would consider that are afforded to younger generations of Asian Americans that did not exist forty years ago? Well, you think about just like I said, cooking, all that, okay?

01:35:32.610 - 01:35:48.750

And now, you can outsource it. Like, my kids say, “Okay, we got the-the cleaning lady is coming, or the gardener.” You know, I said, “My goodness, I was the gardener, I was the cleaning lady, everything.” And they can have a

01:35:48.790 - 01:36:02.450

carry-out. They can eat out. And they can have nanny, you know, and—stay with the kids, you know? They can have a lots of advantage, even though you're not affluent, you still can have a daycare center.

01:36:02.750 - 01:36:17.180

At that time, there is no quality daycare center. But my—luckily, we have the university preschool program, and that school—remember early childhood education, my professor encouraged me to get into it.

01:36:17.480 - 01:36:32.230

So, I taught that—I mean those courses, too, you know? So, I send my girls to the lab school after they—I mean, when they were eligible. Three year old, the second one—the older one, of course, was already, you know,

01:36:32.660 - 01:36:45.570

in, and went to private—to pre–pre-kindergarten. But anyway, so they—now, it’s so convenient for you. And also, you have a maternity leave.

01:36:45.960 - 01:37:01.620

You—I even heard you have a paternity leave, my goodness. You know, I-I can give you one example. When—remember, I told you I was looking for a job in 1971 summer, after I got my PhD—or almost got my PhD in the springtime.

01:37:03.230 - 01:37:22.380

And then, when I went to Harrisburg–Harrisburg University, Virginia, for interview, and the department head say, “Do you have children?” Now, it's not supposed to ask, right? During your interview. You don't ask personal questions.

01:37:22.850 - 01:37:36.060

But she did. It's-it’s okay. It's legal. So, she asked me, “Do you have children?” At that time, I just got pregnant. I was debating. You know, I don't want to lie.

01:37:36.560 - 01:37:53.150

So, I say, “I'm expecting, but it will be during Christmas time, semester break,” which is true—about December, beginning of December. You know what? In the beginning, she was so enthusiastic. He said, “Stanton doesn't have a job, no problem.

01:37:53.500 - 01:38:07.360

We will find a job for him to teach math, or what. If they don't have engineering, but we will find a job for him. So, you both can come.” So, they really want me, you know, so much. But just because of my pregnancy.

01:38:08.130 - 01:38:23.230

She said, “No, we cannot hire.” Right up front. She said, “Because if you—well, first of all, in the wintertime, it's dangerous for pregnant women to walk on the ice,” you know, whatever, “if something happened to you.

01:38:23.840 - 01:38:35.930

And number two, if you have a baby before the semester break, I have to take over your courses. We all have to share your course. No way.” Isn't that discrimination?

01:38:35.930 - 01:38:50.440

That's what I said. It's not racial discrimination. They didn't reject me because of my Chinese background, or my accent, but they reject me because of woman. Wow, yeah, that is–that is discrimination.

01:38:50.980 - 01:39:04.210

That’s–that’s—and now, you have maternity leave. You have paid leave. You have paternity leave. You have all this benefit. Uh-uh. And—at that time, and that—my salary, at that time, even at UH,

01:39:05.620 - 01:39:17.400

I found out I only—nearly two-thirds of my male colleagues’ salary. So, I went to the dean. I said, “How come?” You know?

01:39:17.950 - 01:39:32.630

And then, he said, “Because your salary is just supplemental to your family. But this guy, he doesn't have—” Well, he's a single, actually, okay? He doesn't have family, but he just by himself. He doesn't need much either, okay?

01:39:32.630 - 01:39:42.990

But then he says, “That's the only income he has. You has—you have other income. Your husband.” Oh, come on. Hey, my husband wasn't reliable.

01:39:43.230 - 01:39:57.650

If we—if this same guy here, I will say, “Look, he divorced me because I was unemployed.” [laughs] Just because of that. So, you know. Wow, these are really stunning stories.

01:39:58.040 - 01:40:14.620

Yeah, so you can see the generation value changes. It's not just the public—I mean, just employment—about interpersonal relations, the husband, the colleagues, the everything, you know? Not just job, but-but-but personal life, everything.

01:40:15.800 - 01:40:36.540

So, I'm–I'm proud of you doing this study to really trace back the social changes in the—in this country, maybe. Or, in Texas, whatever. So, in-in what areas did you—do see the talents

01:40:37.230 - 01:40:53.900

and efforts most needed for Asian Americans in public service today? Excuse me? Could you— So—yeah, so in what areas do you see the talents and efforts most needed for Asian Americans in public service today?

01:40:55.720 - 01:41:06.860

I think it depends on what you’re interested, you know? What–what do you want to pursue? And I generally—I can say in two categories if you're talking about public services.

01:41:07.600 - 01:41:28.270

And one is managerial position, and—like administrators. And the other one is like a think tank, or strategist. Okay. Maybe I can use the example of the White House

01:41:28.380 - 01:41:44.010

president’s administrator. But the Congress is more like a thinkers. So, you can see the current president, Biden, and Trump, they have two different personality X—I mean, strengths, and a weaknesses.

01:41:44.980 - 01:42:04.640

Biden, maybe, he had a lots of thinking, a lots of knowledge as a longtime senator, but he's not decisive—not make a decision, not able to know how to manage the people, to deal with the people, even communicate with the people.

01:42:06.000 - 01:42:18.910

But on the other hand, Trump is a good communicator, whether he's lying or whatever, but he does get his message out. Truth or fakes, it doesn't matter. He got communicate it, okay?

01:42:19.460 - 01:42:31.200

We have to give him the credit. He’s decisive of what is right or wrong. He did make decision, okay? And so, he's from the other, you know, group.

01:42:32.200 - 01:42:49.610

So, if I'm going to elect a president, I have to consider carefully. I want to eva-evaluate—I mean elect someone who's just to have congressional background or experience, or who has a government experience.

01:42:49.930 - 01:43:05.820

I mean, like, governor experiences. If you look at the American history, you find out great presidents, Roosevelt, two Roosevelts, all came from New York governorship. They all have that—Reagan, even as an actor, but he has

01:43:06.930 - 01:43:15.810

government—governor experience, administrative experience. So, that's the difference. But if you elect—or even Bush, Jr. Bush—or senior.

01:43:16.230 - 01:43:28.950

But if you just elect some a senator, you know, hey. It's different, okay? Watch out. And so, being a senator is not qualified to be a president,

01:43:29.150 - 01:43:40.700

I would say, okay? They’re—they might talk, think, and on the paper, but no delivery. No decision. Okay.

01:43:42.890 - 01:43:58.660

So, you've been appointed to government positions, where you've noted that your hope—you were hoping to apply some of your academic expertise. What do you think may be missing in curriculum currently taught in school about public service?

01:44:00.400 - 01:44:16.800

I think several things. Of course, earlier you mentioned about—I mentioned, integrity, or honesty, you know, that's important—critical thinking. On top of that, I like to point out

01:44:17.310 - 01:44:29.460

several C's. Number one is communication. You've got to be able to comm—whether you are, like I say, either president or senator, you've got to be able to talk.

01:44:29.500 - 01:44:46.360

Come on, hey, okay. And you've got to be able to convey your message, okay, to people. And number two—or-orally. or in written form, but communication is

01:44:46.360 - 01:45:04.580

important. Even though you have an accent, but it's okay. But you have to get your message out, okay? And speaking of that—okay, I remember Senator Dole’s wife, Lily Dole, and she

01:45:05.680 - 01:45:21.890

made a statement, she said, “If you want to speak and convince people, you have to speak with passion. Remember that. If you have a passion for that group of people, you will be able to deliver your message effectively.”

01:45:24.370 - 01:45:40.400

I think that's very, very true, you know. If I don't like to talk to you, I don't think I will be so excited. But because I like to talk with you, share my experiences, so I sometimes get overexcited or too emotional, right?

01:45:40.990 - 01:45:59.770

But anyway, so you need to have that kind of passion, or compassion. Okay, the first one, like I say, communication. The second one is connection, which I missed a lot, especially even American-born Chinese or Asians, they

01:45:59.770 - 01:46:14.750

need to focus on this, how to establish your connection. Networking. Of course, during my era, there's no internet, and no LinkedIn, no Google search, you know. You have—it’s hard to get connected.

01:46:15.430 - 01:46:35.020

Okay, you use Rolodex, you probably never heard of that, you know, and index card to write down your friend’s phone number. And so now it's very—now you have social media. It’s so easy for you to get connect, but use it properly.

01:46:35.270 - 01:46:48.020

So. connection is important. But don't just drop name, you know, anytime you want. Make sure if you dropping name, it will help you or hurt you, okay? That will be another lesson.

01:46:49.730 - 01:47:02.280

I wish I could talk about that. But anyway, so connection is the second one. And the third one is credential. I-I don't think Asians will have an issue, because we're all very

01:47:03.900 - 01:47:18.820

well-equipped with our degrees. Our academic records, you know. And so, I'm not going to elaborate that much, you know. But the–the other C I will say is competence to

01:47:19.720 - 01:47:36.950

be able to manage, you know, financially, per-personnel, in a management of resources, people, budget, everything. Sometimes, we are so focused on our narrow area,

01:47:37.550 - 01:47:53.450

we forgot the bigger picture, or the-the budget, the financial impact, you know, all that. So, I think the competence—or manage your time, manage your-your people, manage your team, you know.

01:47:53.810 - 01:48:13.820

I remember Colin Powell said—General Colin Powell said that—he said “The best leader is to simplify—the most difficult test is the best leader who can simplify task. If you can make ten steps into one or two, then you succeed.” See,

01:48:13.820 - 01:48:29.970

that's competence. So—and then the other one I will say is compassion, or you got to like your job, like the people you're dealing with. I say, “Thank God, I always enjoy.

01:48:30.230 - 01:48:46.560

I like what I do.” Regardless of what I told you, the frustration, the setback, the defeat, but I always enjoy the process. So, although my first husband say, “You're just wasting your time.

01:48:46.890 - 01:49:00.060

You-You always get lost. You always get defeated.” But I said, “According to university professor, you submit your grant proposal, you submit six, you can only get one funded.

01:49:00.620 - 01:49:19.410

That's the chance.” I said, “If you go by that chance, I'm not too bad. You got to try. If you don't put that out, you don't get any. So, you got to put the six in order to get one.” So, I think if you go by that ratio, it's not too bad.

01:49:20.120 - 01:49:32.330

So, my life is not so miserable [laughs], okay? Actually it’s pretty good, thank God. And so I say, you know, you got to have compassion. You got to have conviction.

01:49:32.980 - 01:49:44.560

You have to convince me you're committed to what you do. You believe, maybe from childhood. I just believe things should be right. You cannot be wrong.

01:49:45.150 - 01:50:00.140

Should—people should keep their justice. Should be fair. Yeah. I remember the interview for–for my appointment in Department of Education. And my boss asked me, “What do you think your strengths?

01:50:01.240 - 01:50:16.550

Just one word.” I said, “My strength—my one word is, you know, fairness. Fairness. I want to be fair, okay?

01:50:17.460 - 01:50:34.040

Do everything fair. That’s me, okay? And—be fair.” So, maybe that–that just permeate this throughout my–my years of life. Permeate, I say.

01:50:35.720 - 01:50:46.500

That's all such great advice. Thank you. So, other questions? Yes. So–so, you graded your career as B, but A for

01:50:46.500 - 01:51:01.660

being a wife and a mother. Have your–have your daughters been inspired by your career, in-in politics and in teaching? I don't think so. Although they gave me a lot of credit

01:51:02.180 - 01:51:19.400

for their Chinese, for their piano. Sometimes, I say, “Do regret—do you—taking piano,” like sometimes I did regret myself, you know, spend all the time for piano. But they say, “No, it helps us to become very self-disciplined.” You

01:51:19.430 - 01:51:31.610

know, I thought that's good. And of course, later on, the science proves it’s good for other development too, musical, you know, experience. And I didn't mean to make

01:51:33.340 - 01:51:45.790

them—never want them to be a musician. But they were so talented. They both have a perfect pitch. You know, like the first daughter, before she could talk, and when she was only

01:51:45.870 - 01:52:04.730

four month old, she was able to hum and—her singing the melody of the Chinese school—we teach the children in the Chinese school. Because she was sitting there just, you know, waiting for me to teach the kids or-or-or sang the song.

01:52:05.210 - 01:52:20.650

So, she said the song in her crib. It’s amazing. But I didn't push her to be a pianist or musician, you know. And they are very diverse. Like I said, they are cheerleading, and—do cheerleading, drill team, debate team.

01:52:20.800 - 01:52:40.410

swimming, you name it. But th-they're not inspired by—they’re proud of–proud of me. And my younger daughter one day made a comment, “Mother, you're very conservative, but you're very open-minded.” I say, “How

01:52:40.490 - 01:52:52.770

could that be? That's contradictory.” Yeah, in the beginning. And then, she say, “No, you're conservative, because in terms of value, you're very conservative, you know?

01:52:53.720 - 01:53:05.530

Integrity, all that. Honesty, all that. Loyalty, all that.” Like loyalty, you know, I help the campaign—all the campaign, I fight—I fought until the end.

01:53:06.050 - 01:53:22.890

I want to bring the gap as narrow as possible. That's me. You know, I don't give it up, loyalty. And she say, “On the other hand, you're very open-minded to new ideas, to people's suggestion, to criticisms.” So, I say, “Oh,

01:53:22.970 - 01:53:40.120

that's pretty good.” You know, I never thought about that. I said, “That's a good line.” But I also have to say one thing, which made me cry the other day. I looked at one old letter from my daughter, younger

01:53:40.120 - 01:53:55.020

daughter. I think she was about six year old. When I was doing research in Taiwan—see, this is career woman's choice, you know? Strategy—I mean, you can say

01:53:55.610 - 01:54:12.770

choice or tragedy, or whatever you want to call, okay? And I took the old one with me, but I left the younger one with my mother, you know? My husband, you know, his mother to come to help us.

01:54:12.770 - 01:54:25.810

So—babysit during the summer. Just one summer research project. And so, in her note she say, “Dear Ma, I miss you so much.

01:54:27.810 - 01:54:44.310

I wish you–I wish you don't go.” That really hurt me. You know. Oh, she's—first of all, she said, “I love you. I miss you so much.

01:54:44.920 - 01:55:00.600

I wish you don't go.” Isn't that heartbreaking? Yes, that is. That really is. Yeah, so—but career woman, you had no choice and like, I remember the first time I present my speaking of networking.

01:55:01.280 - 01:55:19.020

I had a hard time. That's the—out of all of Cs, I think my most weak part is the connection. Networking. First of all, we don't have a background, family background, whatever, okay? No connection to anywhere, and then no professor

01:55:19.500 - 01:55:34.050

connection. I have to stay home for four years. I lost the contact with my professors, basically. I cannot even find someone to write references for me, okay? And then, later on, you know, and speaking of

01:55:35.410 - 01:55:52.990

the presentation of papers, I remember the first time I had to present a paper at College Station, Texas A&M. And we have to take the whole family to the meeting. So Stanton took the two girls to the zoo, you know?

01:55:53.350 - 01:56:09.570

College Station, the zoo somewhere, you know. I dash into the meeting place and did my presentation and dash out, meeting them, you know, at the zoo. See, that's the life—and then came back.

01:56:09.950 - 01:56:26.380

How could you do the networking that way? Again, that's the difference for women at that time, you know. Now—and then no support system, yeah. And—or childcare, or whatever.

01:56:27.330 - 01:56:40.500

Your spouse, first of all, is very traditional. Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that. So, what's your view of US

01:56:40.570 - 01:56:57.640

policies on immigration in recent years and their impacts on Asian immigrants? I think basically, there are two areas you can address the immigration policies, because I served on the commission.

01:56:58.320 - 01:57:15.960

And before, I—we all knew actually. It’s well known fact, the—it’s because of the economic reason or political unrest in those countries. So, people can—including myself, will want to have a better life to come to the US

01:57:16.490 - 01:57:32.630

for–for American dream, or even today's immigrants, from any other countries is for better life, that’s bottom line. But to what extent you mean “better”? Okay? But for those from South—southern borders, they needed

01:57:32.740 - 01:57:49.870

to escape death, hunger, economic hardship, and just life-threatening situation, sometimes. And we–we have plenty of land, and if you go back to the history, and—the-the West, California, Nevada,

01:57:51.320 - 01:58:03.090

all those state—Texas—used to belong to who? Do you know? Mexico. We conquer that. We took it right?

01:58:03.620 - 01:58:13.710

That's their land. Whose land? It's not my land. It's their land. And still not very dense. We can accommodate those people.

01:58:14.060 - 01:58:30.740

But the issue, the challenge is how do you manage? Okay? You–you have to have a good system—now, with the internet, with the high tech, you can easily monitor who are here, who are not here, who just want to work.

01:58:31.310 - 01:58:44.400

Basically, they just work. If you just saw like earlier Chinese immigrants, they look to San Francisco for making living and send the money back home. That's fine. Let them do that. Okay. So, they just migrant worker.

01:58:44.670 - 01:59:01.380

We need cheap—cheaper lettuce, cheaper produce there, okay? And let them work, and—but let him send money back and coming back and forth freely. As long as we know where are they.

01:59:01.860 - 01:59:16.840

Whether they pay tax, whether did they do their shares, whether do they—fulfill their require—I mean—obligations? That's fine. That's our job, our government's job to put it in a very effective management.

01:59:18.060 - 01:59:34.130

So, I think management and—is the key. Then we can both be beneficial, or it's for mutual beneficial—benefits. Or, for example, like I said, we got a cheaper labor. We got a better, harder worker.

01:59:34.620 - 01:59:52.110

You know why America is so great? Because infusion of immigration—migration. Because when you have new immigrants coming every five, ten years, once a while, that stimulate competition.

01:59:53.380 - 02:00:09.430

The local people have to work hard, although they resent. Now, they resent the Chinese work hard—scientists in Silicon Valley. They resent Indians from India work hard. But they have to work hard.

02:00:09.430 - 02:00:23.240

They cannot totally relax. A little bit. Yeah. Maybe not—maybe just a little bit, not much. So that's the infusions of blood, basically, the-the

02:00:23.480 - 02:00:41.090

new immigrants. But if we stopped—totally stopped it, my goodness, we commit our own suicide. Okay. So, I don't think that's a good policy. And just very briefly, but to speaking of the Asians,

02:00:42.890 - 02:00:58.840

yes, we are in danger. Like I said, the competition, even my own experience. When you're in the bottom of the totem pole, you know, like a pyramid, you know, there's so many people. They don't care if you’re assistant professor, you’re

02:00:58.920 - 02:01:09.630

instructors, they don't care. But once you tried to lead it to the top—lead them, forget it. The competition will get tougher, okay? That's the reality.

02:01:09.880 - 02:01:19.800

That's in all the field. So, we have to be prepared for that. How? That's the challenge. Do we have time to talk about that?

02:01:22.990 - 02:01:36.930

I think we're running out of time. Yeah, that's true. That's what I thought. Maybe in the future, you know, I will talk about how we can overcome that. But Indians are doing much better job than we are.

02:01:39.050 - 02:01:51.120

Because of their cultural background. Right, okay. So, next question. How would you describe the Asian American community in Houston?

02:01:52.780 - 02:02:07.290

I think they have been doing great job. And I'm proud of their accomplishments since 1960s. And—but I think they still have room for improvement.

02:02:08.290 - 02:02:25.250

Because of the—like I said, the threat of a ra-racism, and they need to promote a better understanding between Chinese culture, or Asian culture, and the non-Asian culture, books.

02:02:26.140 - 02:02:44.030

And cross-cultural understanding is very important. And so, you got to be able to do that, and take all the opportunities to communicate with your neighbors, especially those people living in a

02:02:45.170 - 02:02:58.690

high-end neighborhood, elite neighborhood, you got to keep a good relationship with them. Even, you know, take an extra step. I'm sorry to say that.

02:02:59.190 - 02:03:17.370

But that's basically—we need to do—try to do everything like I did back to 1980s, or ‘70s. And—‘80s, I'm sorry. I started the campus the—you know, lunar festival

02:03:19.830 - 02:03:36.510

celebration—Lunar New Year celebration to promote Chinese culture—to introduce Chinese culture to local people. So, I think that's important. How would you like to be remembered?

02:03:38.600 - 02:03:59.160

I like to be remembered as a-a pioneer, you know, in many areas. I was first in many, many areas. And I also like to remember to be a community

02:04:01.050 - 02:04:21.190

activist. Not just a political appointee, that–that means nothing. That really concerns the interest of the people. The actor was the—for the benefit of the people here. And-and also, you know, not just in the local level,

02:04:21.810 - 02:04:41.850

but national level. I know we have a lot of appointees at higher level and a lot of lawmakers, but they are only at one level, either state or city or what. But I have been experiencing—experienced many,

02:04:43.310 - 02:05:00.300

many different levels. So, I think that gave me a broader view of-of the structure of the United States. So—and I think, also, I'm a ladder-climber, and

02:05:02.340 - 02:05:17.650

I lay the foundation–foundation for the first step. I laid the foundation for people. And I pulled people up to a higher steps. I never stopped all the peoples move ahead of me.

02:05:18.150 - 02:05:31.950

I always—I can tell you many stories, but I don't want to—I don't have time here, you know? How—you know. And people cannot deny, you know, and how I help them to where they are.

02:05:31.950 - 02:05:49.720

So, you've been advocating for Asian Americans throughout your life. What do you think about the rise of anti-Asian racism during the pandemic, and do you have any advice for Asian Americans today trying to combat anti-Asian sentiments?

02:05:51.880 - 02:06:04.470

Asian? What— Oh, do you have–do you have any advice for Asian Americans today trying to combat anti-Asian sentiments? Yeah, okay. Yeah, sure.

02:06:05.310 - 02:06:23.470

Yeah. Like I said, besides to promote your cross-cultural understanding, and also you will-will have to modify your behavior, too, you know? And of course, like your generation, you speak perfect English and perfect communication skill, but the culture

02:06:24.180 - 02:06:36.540

is very subtle, okay? And you-you have to modify. I’m so—I’m not saying you have to abandon your cultural heritages. But you have to modify it.

02:06:36.540 - 02:06:52.010

You know, for example—I'm learning too, okay? Let me just give you one very sim—okay, let-let-let's talk about the big-big picture. Like, the Indians from India, they are doing much better. They are in a managerial position, more than we do.

02:06:52.730 - 02:07:07.690

Why? The Google, Microsoft CEO: all Indians, not Chinese. Why? Because, of course, they speak English well. And also, not just English well, but also their mentality.

02:07:08.590 - 02:07:23.750

They used to be dealing with a lot of British Westerners. Then, they learn how to deal with them for generations. They know how to play the game. They-they know how to manipulate.

02:07:24.570 - 02:07:32.910

They know what they want. They know what—all that. They know what they're thinking. We don't. We have to learn that part.

02:07:33.350 - 02:07:44.400

I'm still learning. That's why in the beginning, I said that. Now, I learned, I find out more and more cultural differences after 55 years. Let me give you one simple example.

02:07:45.140 - 02:07:59.990

Recently, happened recently. And I gave a gift to a relative. A little bit bigger than usual because special occasion, and he returned it back. He said, “That's too much.” And—but Bill—if

02:08:03.340 - 02:08:14.610

you ask Bill, Bill will say, “Oh, no. I love to accept whatever you give to me. The more the better,” okay? They will not question. We Chinese say, “No, no, no it's too much.” We decline.

02:08:15.470 - 02:08:28.670

When you decline, how do I feel? I feel like I've been rejected. Okay, the gift I gave you, you say too much. You rejected. I don't want to speculate.

02:08:28.740 - 02:08:38.240

What do you think, whatever reason. But you were not happy. You rejected. That's not good idea. But I can understand traditional way.

02:08:38.450 - 02:08:49.250

I do—I probably do the same thing. I always—I don't return. But I will say, “Oh, I don't want that.” I think I said, “I don't want that. I don't need that.” But Bill always accept it with a great

02:08:49.830 - 02:09:01.630

pleasure. Because people are happy when you accept their gift, you know? So, I learned to accept. He said, “Learn to accept, and don't worry about return.” That's the reason.

02:09:01.970 - 02:09:13.330

Chinese always worried about to return the favor. “Okay, if I got this big gift, how do I return next time? So, I better return this to you. I don't want to accept that.” But I got a rejection.

02:09:16.220 - 02:09:28.400

That's no good. That's the difference between Western culture. But Western—Eastern, I mean, Chinese and American culture. Do you agree with me? [KS: Yeah.] That's very common, right?

02:09:28.400 - 02:09:42.410

[KS: Mhm.] Another thing—maybe it's getting better— interrogation. When you first met someone socially, okay? Of course, a Caucasian. “Oh, how many kids you have? And where do you live?

02:09:42.510 - 02:09:54.010

And what’s your school, your children go—” maybe it's for competition. Maybe for reference—or maybe just for reference? “Oh, what school your children going? Which is the best school?

02:09:54.180 - 02:10:06.070

Are they going to the best school, yeah?” None of your business. Well, I taught multicultural. That's the problem. That's why I became more sensitive to those issues.

02:10:07.650 - 02:10:22.210

We-we-we had a class called cross-cultural understanding, or exercise, or simulation—you know, exercise to teach you verbal, nonverbal, all these skills. How do you deal with that?

02:10:22.210 - 02:10:37.210

Okay? And you're just very naturally—you didn't know you're making a mistake. You think, “Okay, I just caring about you. I just tried to find a reference for my children.” No, this is not acceptable.

02:10:38.610 - 02:10:55.070

Like, okay, you find—a friend move into a new home. “Oh, how much is that house in that neighborhood?” Then, the American Caucasian, if they are nice, they say, “Oh, too much to offer.” If they’re ugly, “None of your business.”

02:10:56.790 - 02:11:05.830

You ruin the reputation. I mean, relationship. That's why you don't get promoted. That's why you don't fit into their society.

02:11:06.240 - 02:11:22.960

I think some people wonder, “How come you get into the political area—arena?” So many experiences. I'm not saying achievement, but so many experiences. Because I probably know their culture better than a lot of Chinese Americans,

02:11:23.900 - 02:11:38.550

because of my multicultural studies. And I have to tell you, Karen, when I was asked to teach multicultural studies, I study all the culture. I didn't know Chinese Americans’ immigration history, until I

02:11:38.830 - 02:11:50.020

study it. I didn't know. I had no clue. Because that's irrelevant to me, okay? Even though I went to Chinatown for grocery, it doesn't matter, okay?

02:11:50.020 - 02:12:10.670

You know. And then, after I realized how Chinese people—oversea Chinese were treated around the world, including in San Francisco, New York, and—I cried, while I was studying, I said, “Lord, I have been sheltered.

02:12:13.020 - 02:12:29.560

I've been protected. All this years, I was happy to be a housewife, to have American dream. And then to be a assistant professor, or maybe will be associate professor. But why you want me to study this ugly chapters.” There are—now, I

02:12:30.060 - 02:12:41.430

understand why. See, everything has a purpose. Everything has a reason. Now, you probably learned from my story, every time I turn right, God led me to the

02:12:41.520 - 02:12:58.740

left. And a left—God led me to the right. And I remember when I was in thirties, or-or-or in the thirties, a reporter came up to me, and are curious about my career and achievement. They say, “How do you set up your career goals?”

02:13:00.600 - 02:13:16.630

I say, “Never.” Because every time I've tried to set up it's always the opposite direction. You saw that from today's interview. How many opposite direction I have gone through. But every one just turned out better.

02:13:18.150 - 02:13:34.120

I love it. Don't you think so? Yes. It’s so great to learn–learn about your life. Yeah, I'm still learning. And–and people ask me, “What's the difference between married to a Chinese and

02:13:34.120 - 02:13:55.720

an American husband?” I say, “I don't want to be judgmental. But I think one thing I learned is about me. I spend more time to get to know this guy.” So sometime, my husband said—I say, “I know you.” Then he will complete the sentence,

02:13:55.980 - 02:14:12.770

“From Adam.” I said, “Right.” Because I often told him, I said, “I know you from Adam.” You know, as a psychologist—a psychology professor, you know, all child development professor, all the areas, I can tell people's motives.

02:14:13.170 - 02:14:26.130

I can tell what they are going to do next. This why my children don't like me. “Mother, you always can read our heart, our mind. We hate it.” Okay, I have to prevent them from making

02:14:26.180 - 02:14:42.040

trouble for me, right? And now I have more time and also to reflect on myself, to improve my communication skills. Very simple reason.

02:14:42.960 - 02:15:00.640

Like taking the trash out, husband's job sometimes. If old me, I will say, “Okay, Stanton, would you please take the trash out?” Okay, “or will you pick up tomorrow?” You know what I will say today?

02:15:01.670 - 02:15:21.400

This one with—to Bill. I will not be so commanding or demanding. “It’s just a gentle reminder, tomorrow is a trash pickup day.” Same thing, right? He will do–he will do it. If you—nobody wants to be told what to do.

02:15:22.490 - 02:15:37.150

Even you, me, anybody. So, you just have to remind them, you got your choice. If he doesn't do it, then you will find out. Okay, instead of say, “Have you—have you taken out?

02:15:37.150 - 02:15:51.070

I remind you,” why don't you just take a look outside? Why are you asking? My old me will say, “Have you taken out? Hey.” Now I just look at.

02:15:54.700 - 02:16:06.700

See, I'm learning, lifelong learning. Do you agree with me? [KS: Yes.] You don't have to include it if this is too long, but I think it's fun to talk about [laughs].

02:16:07.110 - 02:16:24.150

[KS: Yeah, no, it-it's all good.] Yeah. Yeah, so, even though for older people—I will be interviewed by another program next week. And—week—could actually—a week from today.

02:16:25.160 - 02:16:36.910

And the moderator—the interviewer told me, “Oh, you–you have so much—It’s good. You have so much information for us to interview. But also, it's tough.

02:16:37.250 - 02:16:51.880

We don't know how to get started.” [laughs] I think you probably have the same, you know, challenges too. Yeah, and—but the bottom line is, you just have to learn all the time, improve yourself.

02:16:53.200 - 02:17:02.850

And don't complain. Don't point it to other people. Don't blame other people. Be responsible for your own action.

02:17:05.630 - 02:17:20.030

That's another good skill–skill for leadership. But we don't have that, everybody—that’s another cultural trait. Chinese always blame ourselves. “Oh, I didn't do it right.

02:17:20.400 - 02:17:33.830

I failed the test because I didn't study hard.” Americans say, “Oh, because the tests that the professor gave me is too tough.” That's what my students always told me. “I didn't fail. Your question’s not fair.

02:17:34.420 - 02:17:47.670

It's not clear.” Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's always blame others. Chinese is different. So, when you deal with the Chi-Chinese, or deal with your parents,

02:17:48.440 - 02:18:04.940

or with your [unintelligible] is Caucasian [unintelligible], you need to play double face (?). I call, a woman. At home, with your Asian folks, you do one thing.

02:18:06.350 - 02:18:21.020

With the other people, you do other things. So, that makes you, like, bilingual, bicultural, or multicultural. Now you've got to be at least bicultural, or multicultural, in order to succeed.

02:18:22.480 - 02:18:39.650

My younger daughter is executive of a huge Fortune 200 company. And she's stationed in London. She decided to now return to US, okay? Even though she might have to give up her job.

02:18:40.980 - 02:18:56.120

And for that business assignment, she said she did a lot of study—anthropology of British culture. So she could work with them. Their parliament leaders.

02:18:56.750 - 02:19:06.650

Their government (?). See, that’s what we need to. I didn't in-intend to include this part. It just dawned on me, her effort.

02:19:06.760 - 02:19:23.220

I admire her effort. I said, “You did this study?” Yeah, she said, “There's-there’s several books. If you want to read, you can read.” I say, “No, thank you.” [laughs] I'm over it. Yeah, and then—so how to deal with the Brits .

02:19:24.220 - 02:19:40.560

She has to learn. And by the way, she speak Chinese, Russia, and Spanish. Of course, English. Alright, let's move on to the next question.

02:19:40.560 - 02:19:52.030

You still have a question? Okay, good. [KS: Two more left.] Okay, no problem. What are your hopes for Asian American communities in the US?

02:19:55.200 - 02:20:15.810

Oh, I didn't complete it well. And I said, you know, we should integrate more, and one painful point—I

02:20:16.430 - 02:20:36.380

hope I will not offend any one of the people who is going to watch this program—or this recording. Basic on the theory of very famous sociology, Milton Gordon, about immigrants’ assimilation.

02:20:39.420 - 02:20:56.170

And in the US, this is reality. This is not Esther's thinking. And he laid out when—how could a minority been accepted by the majority?

02:20:57.200 - 02:21:13.930

Or why the discrimination happen? The m-major cause of discrimination is your skin color. I know this is very sensitive, but we all know—even among the

02:21:15.650 - 02:21:34.910

blacks, they—the lighter blacks discriminate against the darker blacks, okay? So—which leads to my position about my children's marriage when they were young, or my

02:21:37.150 - 02:21:55.690

comment to some parents, which a lot of them were upset with me. I said, “I'm not against interracial marriage. In fact, I promote that.” I say,

02:21:55.690 - 02:22:16.660

“Then you will lose your identity, racial identity, physical characteristics, you will become more accepted.” I'm sorry. That's reality, okay. And people will not discriminate you, because they couldn't

02:22:16.660 - 02:22:33.840

tell you’re Chinese or not. That's the easiest way, probably. And also, by the way, I have to tell you—here comes my political involvement.

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When Bush lost his reelection, all the Asian Pacific American appointees got together for a party, like a farewell party. We all got together with the spouses, okay? In Washington DC.

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You know what I found out? I look around all those political appointees. I was the only one married to Chinese. My own racial group…the

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woman married to Caucasian men, the men married to Caucasian woman. Does that tell you something? I sometimes wonder, if I would have married to Bill when I was young, I think my life would be totally different.

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Because I knew more about American culture. He can correct me on a lot of things. It's not bad or good. Like, the gift giving, like I say, when you give too much or you—when

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do you have to return, or whatever. It's not good and bad. It's just custom. What do you ask—nosy or carry? It's not good or bad.

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It just cause misunderstanding, right? So, it's not bad to have interracial marriage. That's a proved occasion. I saw that. I was shocked.

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Of course, a lot of people don't pay attention. But I’m the—sometimes I'm more observant, okay? So, I said “Oh, my goodness.” So?

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Thank you for talking about these difficult but important points. I know it's controversial. It's good to have this dialogue, though.

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Yeah, okay. So last question. [EL: Okay.] Do you have–do you have any other advice for future generations, young Asian Americans who are interested in becoming government officials or pursuing leadership

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roles? Okay, I said the—those several Cs. I can re-repeat that to you now: communication, competence, credentials, connections, and compassion, and convictions.

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I had all, although not good, not all a hundred percent. But now, some pretty good, but my worst part is the connection. So, build up the connection, okay.

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And-and, of course, characters, too. I said that, okay? Integrity. I said that repeatedly. But another thing, which is not C, but very, very

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important. After 40 or 50 years, nowadays, money. Money talks. You got to earn money. If you look at today's—our society, the rich get richer, whether you like or not.

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The powerful get more powerful, because they all in together, connected together. Let me just give you one example: if I have a congressman—if I—for example, if I'm running for Congress, I don't have enough money.

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But the other one has better connection, more money, raise more money, just like in my own congressional race, that investment banker. She defeated me. And now it's even worse. Because when I get into the Congress—if I got into the

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Congress, I will build up more connection, more rich people around me. I-I can raise more money, and nobody can defeat me. Because I have more money, even though I'm very corrupt. Then, I be used by those donors.

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I'm thinking about their interest above all the average voters in my district. See, that's not fair. But that's reality. What's the solution? Term limitation?

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Is that possible? No. Because who make the term limitation? Nobody. You think congressman will vote for that? No. They vote them out.

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So we just perpetuate the bad system? I don't know. I'm just glad I'm not getting out of this business. [laughs] Politically, politically, I'm out, you know?

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And a-a-actually a couple years ago, I was thinking to run for office. I was so mad of the ignorance of the people. And I say, “I don't want—I don't need to win, but I want to voice my–my concerns, my positions, you know.

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Like term limits—limitation.” But then I say, “Why I have to do that? I will invite hostility. I will—now, with the gun problem–gun problem, people

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probably come to my house with guns. With the threat—death threat. Why I want to do that?” I am more concerned about my safety, than the righteousness or justice.

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That's sad. I’m chicken. I'm sorry, you know, okay? And not just myself, but my husband, right? Why I put my husband in danger?

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If I get shoot, you know, in the supermarket, people don't like my position, that's fine. How ‘bout my husband? If there's somebody broke the house—go into. Right? So,

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it's a big mess. But hopefully people will be able to resolve it. I don't know. We better conclude with a positive notes, okay?

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And—but the beauty is being bicultural, bilingual, you have a-a lots of advantages. You will see things differently. You will be more open-minded.

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Just like my girls. You know, they see things differently. And-and they also, you know, be more global-minded, and more tolerant to people.

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And so, at the same time, they will enjoy life. You know? Not so provincial. And so, like we say, you know, like the frog in the bottom of the well, okay?

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In Chinese say. And so, I think being multicultural, bicultural are good. So, don't give up. And even though I–I have no objection about interracial

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marriage, but I still encourage people to keep their own heritage, especially language. Language is hard to learn, to acquire after puberty. We all knew that.

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Like the—when you're young, it's easy to pick up. Like my children, we spoke Chinese at home. They have no accent. They Chinese. [KS: Uh huh.] Although they have—now, they

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lost a lots of vocabulary, but still no accent. I think that's a really wonderful way to end this interview. Thank you so much, Dr.

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Shu-Shin Lee, for sitting in for this long interview with me. Well, it's a great pleasure to be here. Thank you very much for the opportunity to share. All right. Thank you.

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Thank you.