00:00:00.620 - 00:00:20.060

Today is August 30th, 2019. My name is Joshua Furman. I'm the Director of Rice University's Houston Jewish History Archive and I'm here with the creators of the Tradition board game. Could you please introduce yourselves and spell your first and last names? Hi, I'm Estelle Panzer, E-

00:00:20.070 - 00:00:41.440

S-T-E-L-L-E. Last name P-A-N-Z- E-R. Hi, I'm Janis Odensky, J-A-N-I-S O- D-E-N-S-K-Y. Janis and Estelle, thank you so much. Why don't we start? Just tell us a little bit about

00:00:41.440 - 00:00:59.100

your background, where you were born and grew up, when your family came to Houston, and a little bit about what you were doing before the Tradition board game years. Estelle, why don't you start? Hi, I, my parents, my mom was a born Houstonian. My father moved

00:00:59.100 - 00:01:19.250

here at age 13. So I was raised in Houston, the Pasadena/ South Houston area primarily um, went to University of Texas for college, and during my twenties worked as a wage-hour investigator for the labor department, the Department of Labor, sorry. Um, prior to, had got married

00:01:19.250 - 00:01:38.820

in 1978, had a child in 1980 and '82. Uh, so the few years prior to developing the board game, we, uh, I was primarily a stay-at-home mom. I did some piano jobs, musical work primarily in the Jewish community, but basically a stay-at-home

00:01:38.820 - 00:01:58.550

mom at the time that we started working on the board game. Okay, and Janis, how about yourself? Well I was born and raised in San Antonio, Texas and uh came to Houston to attend U of H in 1969 and have been a Houstonian ever since. Uh

00:01:58.560 - 00:02:20.460

married a Houstonian. And um so I, we moved to Corpus Christi, Texas. Actually, my husband's first job took him there after law school. And our son was born in Corpus and we moved back to Houston and had our daughter and I was also a stay-at-

00:02:20.460 - 00:02:41.050

home mom. Okay, so take us now to the early, early years, the moment when, um, you had the idea to do a Jewish trivia game. How did that start? What was the seed that was planted to make this happen? Want me to start? Uh well, we got

00:02:41.050 - 00:02:59.810

the idea separately. Janis and her friend Judy Jordan had gotten the idea and I'll let her tell about that. Um, I was just looking for something to do to challenge myself. Jewish trivia, I mean trivial pursuit at the time was very, very popular. So I can

00:02:59.810 - 00:03:14.960

recall being at some party or get together and heard someone make the comment, "Oh the next thing you know, there's gonna be a Jewish trivia," and that was all it took. That was my seed. Um, so I decided I was going to start working on questions.

00:03:14.960 - 00:03:30.250

I bought books. I went to the synagogue libraries. I checked out what I could and just started working on questions. I didn't really have any type of uh plan for a finished board game at that point, but I was just working on questions. About when would

00:03:30.250 - 00:03:44.130

that have been, thinking backwards from when the game was published? How many years ago? That would have been in 1984. Uh huh and can you tell us a little bit, Estelle about your Jewish background? Yes, I grew up, we were members of Beth Yeshurun

00:03:44.140 - 00:04:02.440

my entire life. Um I went to Sunday school, Sabbath school, but living in the Pasadena area, where there's not a really large Jewish community, uh most of my friends and certainly the friends that I went to school with were non-Jewish. There were a few Jewish

00:04:02.440 - 00:04:23.660

families out in Pasadena and we were all friends with each other, especially our families, but I didn't grow up with, I would say a particularly strong Jewish background. My parents, um, were certainly committed Jews, but we, we were not particularly observant other than it was, again,

00:04:23.660 - 00:04:42.390

Sunday school, Sabbath school and High Holidays was was, you know, pretty much my background. So now, I mean to make this game happen, you sort of had to give yourself a crash course in Jewish education that, that you never really had before, right? Oh, for sure,

00:04:42.400 - 00:05:00.750

I think virtually everything we learned along the way of making this game were things that we never had known before. And certainly whatever I learned back in Sunday school was long forgotten. I mean, except for things associated with the holidays, um certain traditions, obviously. Uh, but

00:05:00.760 - 00:05:13.670

as far as the type of information and knowledge that we put into this game, I mean it was all, it was learning from scratch. And did you tell anyone at the time in those early years what you were doing or it was hush-hush? It was

00:05:13.670 - 00:05:30.290

very hush-hush because um, I think like, like Janis and Judy, we were afraid someone else was going to come out with a Jewish trivia version. Uh, and it was sort of a race on the clock to get something finished because so many different types of

00:05:30.290 - 00:05:45.470

versions of trivia were coming out. And um, so it seemed important to not tell anyone. Of course my husband, my family knew what I was doing, but I don't, I'm not even sure I told any friends at the time. And what and what was your family's

00:05:45.470 - 00:06:05.000

attitude toward the project? I think my husband Mark, probably said "Honey, whatever makes you happy. It's keeping you out of the shopping malls and off the streets and gives you something to do when the kids are in preschool." Um, he, I can't say that he really

00:06:05.000 - 00:06:21.033

believed this was ever going to, uh, really materialize into what it did turn into. I'm not sure. I even felt that way, but, but I don't recall any time him going, "You're crazy for doing this. Why are you spending all this time at the dining room table,

00:06:21.043 - 00:06:35.556

you know, with all these books around you?" So he certainly was supportive and the kids really were probably too young to have an opinion one way or the other at the time. So your kids are in preschool? Right. You're, you're about how old at the time?

00:06:35.726 - 00:06:51.756

Let's see. I would have been 34, 34. Okay. So mid-30s, and you're taking on this project. You're reading. You're writing questions and let's turn things over now to Janis and hear Janis' story. So it's funny because when you said that you think you were at

00:06:51.756 - 00:07:09.230

a party, I'm pretty sure it was a party for Larry. We gave him a surprise party and y'all were at our house and we were all playing Trivial Pursuit. Now Larry is your husband? My husband. And her cousin, and so I think that's what happened. And Judy and

00:07:09.230 - 00:07:25.760

I kind of looked at each other and the light went off for us too. And so that would have been September, um so, that would have been September, when we did that. So uh and basically we did the same thing. I remember talking to judy the

00:07:25.760 - 00:07:42.620

next day on the phone and we said, "Let's do this," and but we can't tell anybody. And we did, it was the same exact thing we were working on, uh, questions and we're so excited and our husbands were, sure whatever, and they didn't think it was

00:07:42.620 - 00:07:59.220

gonna materialize into anything and they just, whatever you wanna do, do and um yeah. So tell us about about, well first of all, tell us a little bit about Judy, who's not here today. And how you, how you knew her. And a little bit also about

00:07:59.220 - 00:08:17.600

your upbringing as well in terms of Jewish education and home life. Okay so, Judy Jordan and her, huh, husband Bruce had moved here from Miami to Houston for his, for a job and when we met through mutual friends and clicked. And so um, we were very

00:08:17.600 - 00:08:41.500

close and so it was only natural that we would do this together. Um, my background is, uh that uh, for the most part we were raised Reform, and uh I was very, um, I participated like in the choir first Friday night services. So we did attend

00:08:41.500 - 00:09:05.040

every Friday night, uh this was at Beth El in San Antonio. And um, back then, I think I only knew of one girl who attended a Hebrew school and girls just didn't have bat mitzvahs. And so I was not bat Mitzvahed. I didn't go to Hebrew

00:09:05.040 - 00:09:25.810

school, but I did attend Sunday school every Sunday and was Confirmed. So, um but, my parents were very active, um, in the Jewish community and that was just a large part of our our life. And was your process of researching and writing questions similar to

00:09:25.810 - 00:09:49.610

Estelle's going to synagogue library and checking out books, encyclopedias. And honestly, um my son, and it's true my son would come home from Hebrew school or Sunday school and ask me questions. And I just didn't remember, it might have been bible questions or whatever, and I

00:09:49.610 - 00:10:03.860

can just remember standing in the kitchen and saying, "We'll ask daddy when he gets home." And I thought, I should be able to answer this. But. That's interesting, do you think, and and Estelle you can comment on this to that that some some piece of this

00:10:03.860 - 00:10:25.800

project beyond the the entrepreneurial aspect of creating a game, was also just about your own, you know, intellectual thirst for, for wanting a deeper connection to Judaism? I think unquestionably. Um at the time, my kids were in preschool at United Orthodox, uh the Montessori school there.

00:10:25.810 - 00:10:45.320

And um after I married Mark, I think religion, Judaism became more important to me than I think it had been in my earlier years. And um so, I think I was just searching for, you know, maybe a stronger identity, just for me, as well as something

00:10:45.320 - 00:11:01.710

to impart to others. But the research was exhilarating. I mean, I can just remember just, you know, reading and and just, wow, this is so cool. I never knew this or oh, this person's Jewish, you know, I never knew that. Um even, you know, just things

00:11:01.710 - 00:11:20.690

associated with, you know, the holidays and traditions just Israel. Uh it was, it was a wonderful learning experience. The whole process of doing the questions was was fun and satisfying. It wasn't drudgery, it wasn't, you know, I got to go through this. If we're gonna get

00:11:20.690 - 00:11:44.040

some questions, I've got to, you know, I've got to trudge through this. I never felt that way. It was all exciting. Neat. Alright, so, each of you independently, unaware of what the other is doing, is engaged in creating trivia questions for a Jewish version of Trivial

00:11:44.040 - 00:12:02.930

Pursuit. So then, how do you become aware of um the competition, so to speak? What, what was that moment like? Who wants to describe it? I'll do it. Um, one afternoon, I had dropped my daughter off at uh, I think the JCC for a class. And

00:12:02.930 - 00:12:15.200

I just found I had an extra hour to kill, and I generally do not drop in on people unexpected, and something just made me call Janice. I'm not even sure I called you ahead of time. I think I may have just stopped by your house and

00:12:15.200 - 00:12:30.030

knocked on the door and went, "Hey, I have some time to kill, um you want to visit?" So, I walked in and the first thing I saw, sitting on somewhere in her house, was a game, that I forget the name of it now, but it's Jewish

00:12:30.030 - 00:12:47.140

trivia of some type. Well, I turned all shades of white and went, "What is that?" And she went, "Oh it's, it's just a Jewish trivia version that we found it, I think it's, it's was made in Canada." And I just sat down with my, you know,

00:12:47.140 - 00:12:59.990

head in my hands and went, "Oh, I can't believe it. I've been working on questions for probably about six months now. I was gonna do something like this and now you're showing me this game, It's like all this is for naught." And so she sits down,

00:12:59.990 - 00:13:12.700

looks at me, she went, "Oh, I can't believe it, my friend Judy and I have been doing the same thing for about the same amount of time." So we started, so she shows me what they've been working on. And I'm flipping through and I'm going, "Well

00:13:12.700 - 00:13:23.110

these are kind of the same categories that I was doing and "About how many questions do you have?" And she told me and I went, "That's about how many I have." And we're just sitting there, and I don't think either one of us wanted to be

00:13:23.110 - 00:13:36.080

the first to say like, "You know, like what do you think about working together?" But one of us must have said it. Uh, I think she got Judy on the phone, and before I left that day we were, the three of us, were a new team.

00:13:36.590 - 00:13:53.710

Wow, and if you had to, if you had to hang a date on that moment, about when would it have been? I'm thinking it was probably late '83 maybe that we both started working independently. It had to have been early, it had to been sometime in

00:13:53.710 - 00:14:16.040

1984, because the game actually came out June of '85. So I'm, I'm thinking that it was probably. Um late the fall of '84, mid-September and it was only a few months. Couldn't have been more than two months before because we started working like crazy once

00:14:16.040 - 00:14:29.630

we realized that we joined forces. And that we really needed to get something going. Oh, and also that, that the trivia game that we did see, we looked through it and just determined it really wasn't the same type of thing that we were going to be

00:14:29.630 - 00:14:43.560

doing. We thought, we already thought that our questions were better than what what we saw in that game. So we just-- it was different type and we never saw it again. You couldn't even you couldn't find it anywhere. And again, this was before the internet, so

00:14:43.600 - 00:14:58.980

this was before cell phones. I mean, we couldn't Google and see if anybody else had done this. Right, you'd have to read about it in the paper. Right, so. How else would you know? There was no way. There could have been other women anywhere around the

00:14:58.980 - 00:15:17.100

country doing this and you'd you'd have no clue, until so there's a real, real urgency to the work, as you've been saying to to get it done. Now at this point, you're only writing questions. You're not designing a board game. So, so tell me about, especially

00:15:17.100 - 00:15:39.160

now that you've formed this, this partnership, tell me about the question writing process. How did you decide which categories to include? How did you decide, um, on the questions? Did anybody read or review the questions? What was that process like? Um, I think that we started

00:15:39.160 - 00:16:03.770

having meetings, and with our husbands, when it came time to really create the game. And so, I think we remember all speaking about what the categories might be. Um. And I'm thinking that as we started just writing different questions, certain categories just sort of naturally fell

00:16:03.770 - 00:16:19.050

into our laps like, oh, there's a lot of information about, you know, entertainment and sports and Israel questions and bible. So, the categories just sort, we did play around with them. I don't think, I think, we did kind of change them around and rename them, and

00:16:19.050 - 00:16:41.420

regroup over time. But they're, they're just seemed to be a natural uh, subject matter that seemed to fall into place regarding certain questions. Yeah, can you, can you recall what the categories were? Let's see. Okay. Um, I know we, we combined sports, entertainment and I think

00:16:41.430 - 00:17:06.590

people, it's kind of a people category. Israel was a category, um, holidays and traditions, that another category. Um, I think history was just one, just Jewish history. Oh, Yiddish and slang was another one. Proverbs, I would have studied for this if I. I put you on

00:17:06.590 - 00:17:23.580

the spot. That's okay, I'm trying to think. There were six. And did you have, did you have a target number, like this many questions is what we need to come up with? Yes, it was 3000, and I'm not sure how we came. I think it was

00:17:23.580 - 00:17:35.230

that the number in Trivial Pursuit? That may have been the number of questions that Trivial Pursuit had. We thought that if we're going to make a game of that-- Well, we started out, it was not going to be a finished board game, it was just going

00:17:35.230 - 00:17:53.990

to be questions. So, we were gonna have these wonderful questions that we were going to sell to um, a toy manufacturer, a board game manufacturer. Somebody was gonna want our wonderful questions. And so we really, at the beginning, we really never foresaw this being a finished,

00:17:54.000 - 00:18:12.960

a finished game. Right? And did you have any kind of quality control or an outside person was reviewing the questions? Not, initially not, but once we had our final questions, we did ask Rabbi Joseph Radinsky of United Orthodox Synagogues to, uh, to review them, which he

00:18:12.960 - 00:18:30.390

did. And gave us wonderful feedback. He caught us, you know, on a number of things and plus sometimes in one book, you'll read one thing, another book, another. And um, so sometimes we weren't always sure what the truth was and he really steered us correctly and

00:18:30.400 - 00:18:48.680

just gave us wonderful feedback. And we did make significant revisions based on his feedback. And you all would have weekly meetings, monthly. How often would the three of you physically get together in the same room? It was on Sunday mornings, I remember that, but-- Oh, yeah,

00:18:48.690 - 00:19:05.420

because we had your famous egg casserole. Yeah. Um, I don't think it was every Sunday, maybe every two or three weeks. Yeah, probably not. I don't, I don't think that we managed it weekly, but we certainly talked on the phone and at that point, just with

00:19:05.420 - 00:19:18.290

the questions, we were working pretty independently. It was, it was really when we realized we were going to have to do a finished game and there were a lot of decisions to make about how to play the game, what it was going to look like, what

00:19:18.290 - 00:19:34.750

our goals were. That, I think, that's when we really started trying to get together more frequently. Right? So, so let's talk about that now. So you've complete the questions and then the idea all along has been to sell them to a board game manufacturer. So you,

00:19:34.750 - 00:19:56.050

you go to do that and what happens? Um, nothing, they just weren't interested. And they said that it had to come from in house and within, within the company. And um, it was just a no. This was the makers of Trivial Pursuit that turned you down.

00:19:56.050 - 00:20:17.250

I know we did call them, trying to think if we called any Jewish education. I think we called Hasbro because we understood them to be a Jewish, we thought they were a Jewish company. And Jewish owned and um, there was just nobody was interested. Wow, and you had

00:20:17.250 - 00:20:36.700

not foreseen that, I mean you had put all your eggs in the basket of, they will be overjoyed to learn that 3, 3 Jewish women from Houston have done all the work of writing the questions. Okay, so so it's a no. So then what next? Because you're

00:20:36.700 - 00:20:53.370

obviously not going to put this work to waste. Right? So we realized we were going to have to have a finished game. That most places certainly any stores that would carry it, that they want to see a finished game. So we were told, I think we

00:20:53.370 - 00:21:08.250

ended up talking to others that had developed games, and we got a lot of helpful information from, from those type of people. And we were told you've got to have a prototype. You've got to have a finished game with a board or box playing game instructions,

00:21:08.260 - 00:21:25.750

uh, to get in the door anywhere. So, at that point was it when Judy we started thinking about, well who can, who can we talk to about coming up with a finished product? And Judy had back in Florida, had a friend, Doug Segel, who was had

00:21:25.750 - 00:21:46.820

a publishing printing, a printing company. Can you, can you spell. Yes. Doug D. O. U. G. Last name Siegel. S E. G. A L. His wife, also, was a graphic artist and um Ellen E L L E N. Um and so I'm not sure, we may

00:21:46.820 - 00:22:01.010

have checked into other people, but that, we they ended up being our go to, uh, people and they were excited about it. I think that was the biggest thing, is that they, this is this is great. We we want to help you, we want to do

00:22:01.010 - 00:22:18.400

this. Um, of course then it was figuring out what how, how to play a game. I mean we didn't, we were so worried about Trivial Pursuit, um, coming after us. If we did anything that was exactly like Trivial Pursuit, we figured, we decided we had to have

00:22:18.400 - 00:22:38.950

a different looking board, a different way of playing the game. Um, I mean, I remember we were worried even about just having six categories because they had six categories. Um uh, we, we were, were we, we were concerned about anyone coming after us for like anything else

00:22:38.950 - 00:22:53.320

that was. And weren't you also concerned, that you've just given Trivial Pursuit, the idea of releasing a Jewish version of the game? Oh yes. And we were still keeping it very much under wraps as far as you know, really not telling anyone about this. And we

00:22:53.320 - 00:23:13.200

knew there was a race for time. I mean that we needed to really keep moving and keep doing this. So now we're just keeping the chronology, now we're we're somewhere in 1984, I'm guessing Talking about board game design probably by early this is early

00:23:13.200 - 00:23:34.180

'85 because maybe late '84 early '85 because, of course, marketing was gonna be a big issue. And I remember meeting with another friend of Judy's, Paul Berlin, P A. U. L. And then B. E. R. L. I. N. Who, uh he was a sales rep.

00:23:34.180 - 00:23:50.730

He, I think he sold linens, and his customers were primarily department stores. And he was going to be in town and agreed to meet with us and just sort of brainstorm and tell us what he thought about, you know, about the game. And um he was

00:23:50.730 - 00:24:10.160

just so excited and he said, "I can get this in department stores." Um you know, so, but but the big thing is we we wanted commitments on orders before we would actually commit to a production run, because we were going to have to raise money in

00:24:10.160 - 00:24:27.260

order to produce the game. And we didn't really want to do it unless we had orders. So he just assured us that, "I'm gonna have orders for you. No problem." Uh and it didn't materialize as he predicted. But we got to a point where we were

00:24:27.260 - 00:24:40.810

going to have to commit to the production run or, or not do it. Yeah. And we also learned, we were going to have to, in addition to making a prototype, we were going to have to make at least 5000 games to make it cost effective. We

00:24:40.810 - 00:24:53.290

were thinking, oh we'll do a few 100 games, we'll test the market, we won't have to put that much money into it, but in order to not lose money on every single game, we were going to have to do a run of 5000 games. And do

00:24:53.290 - 00:25:12.310

you remember how much investment that would entail? I do indeed. Uh 50 or 55 somewhere in the $50,000 range, which was an amount that that none of us had. And uh, but we thought, this is such a wonderful game that we'll be able to get a loan.

00:25:12.310 - 00:25:26.330

We'll be able to go to a bank or to the S. B. A. The S. B. A. loves young, women entrepreneurs who are trying to get started. They'll they'll give us money. So all of those proved to be dead ends. Uh. So we ended up, family

00:25:26.330 - 00:25:45.960

and friends step forward said, "We believe in this, here's $1000, here's $2000, here's, here's what I can do. Pay it back when you can, if you can." So, um, it all fell into place. We raised the money and uh committed to that first production run. You

00:25:45.960 - 00:26:07.350

made the production run. Let's just back up a little bit and talk more about the process of designing a game that doesn't look too much like Trivial Pursuit. Um, so talk about like designing the board, the mechanics, right? How players take turns and points and, and

00:26:07.350 - 00:26:25.380

also naming the game, because now the game needs a name. And that's all due to, Janice will tell this because the the name certainly came from her husband. We we thought about everything, and this is one of our Sunday morning get togethers. And we realized that,

00:26:25.380 - 00:26:41.500

someone said that, it should be uh, one word, you know and so we were trying to think of all the different one words and nothing was hitting. And then all of a sudden my husband Larry said, "Tradition" and the minute he said that it was like

00:26:41.510 - 00:27:00.800

Tradition, that's it, and that was it. And um at that point, I remember then, we were able to tell Ellen Siegel, uh the name of the game and could she come up with a uh logo, or uh the look that we were, I can't think of the

00:27:00.800 - 00:27:21.330

word, but she did this design. And I remember when she sent it back to us, we knew immediately that that was it. And we didn't have, we didn't say "No, do something else or ask somebody else." It was, it was perfect. Do you remember any

00:27:21.330 - 00:27:37.120

of the names that got left on the cutting room floor? Heritage was one, when we were trying to do the one name. But but there was a series, uh there's just been a TV-series called Heritage and we didn't want to get confused with that. I

00:27:37.120 - 00:27:59.990

wanted "Everything You Didn't Learn in Sunday School"- what was the rest of it- "But Were Afraid to Ask" or something, was it was something, long and cumbersome, and crazy and of course, of course that wasn't exactly, exactly. Yeah. And then what about, what about how you play?

00:28:00.000 - 00:28:17.480

Because, I know that there's a little bit of a distinctive, um way in which, you know, players get points. In Trivial Pursuit, you get, you get a pie slice, that's not how Tradition works. The strategy took a lot longer to figure out that we thought. I

00:28:17.490 - 00:28:36.750

thinking back, I think it was over at least a couple of month period, where we tried out different things. Um, first I remember Larry, Janice's husband, liking the whole Tree of Life board, where there's branches going in different directions and you just, you follow, you move

00:28:36.750 - 00:28:51.780

along the branch, but we never could figure out, once you got to the end of the branch, what happened, once you reach there. So, that just didn't work. So, we ended up, um working with, similar to to Trivial Pursuit, where you go around you

00:28:51.780 - 00:29:08.520

know in a square, circle, uh and you land on different squares. Um, we somehow came up with the idea that when you roll the dice, because there's six numbers on a die, uh you answered the category of the question. If you roll it two, you move

00:29:08.520 - 00:29:25.710

two spaces and you answer a number two question. Um, so that ended up being part of the game. Um, we, one thing we didn't like about Trivial Pursuit is that, uh, some players can get so far ahead point wise in the game, that others will never

00:29:25.710 - 00:29:39.560

catch up. And we wanted it to be fair, to where you had it at any point during the game, anyone had a chance to win. So we came up, and this was Larry, I looked back in my notes. Um, he came up with the idea of

00:29:39.560 - 00:29:58.000

bumping. So that, because we had it to where if you land on a square and you answered the question correctly, you win the square, right? So we, the the idea of bumping is that if you land on a square, someone else has won, and you answer

00:29:58.000 - 00:30:10.860

your question correctly, you can bump the other person so they would lose their points. So, and we also want something you didn't have to keep score during the whole game, like you do in Trivial Pursuit. I think you have to in Trivial Pursuit, where you can

00:30:10.860 - 00:30:25.590

add the points at the end of the game. So it's, it's just easier. Um, so because we, we use tokens when you win a square, you, you will add those up at the end of the game. So there's, there's no scorekeeping during the game. So, it

00:30:25.590 - 00:30:39.020

took a lot of tweaking and a lot of, you know, trying different different methods for us to finally come up with this. And where each idea came from, I can't tell you. It was just, it was just, it was brainstorming. The fact that the six of

00:30:39.020 - 00:30:55.130

us were there. And what about this? What about that? Let's try this. No, that works. That didn't work. It was. So at this point, it sounds like, maybe in the initial stages, and especially when you were working independently, your husbands were kind of humoring you, you

00:30:55.130 - 00:31:09.720

know, go ahead, you know. But but at this point it sounds like everybody's on board and serious and your your spouses were active contributors in the, in the final stages of the making of the game. Yes, and I think it was really that support that kept

00:31:09.720 - 00:31:27.650

us going. Right. And they all helped. Her husband's an attorney, uh, Judy's husband's an attorney, my husband's a C.P.A., so they were all, also giving us helpful legal and accounting advice throughout, to know that they definitely became right on board with us and helped immeasurably.

00:31:27.660 - 00:31:43.390

And what about your kids? What what what did your young kids think about all this as it was unfolding. Evan, your son was probably the oldest to, he was a little older than the others. But I think my kids were just too young to, I'm sure

00:31:43.390 - 00:31:57.690

they knew Mommy's working on a game. Be quiet. You know, just a minute, let me finish this and then I'll make you supper maybe. Um, so they were aware a big project was going. But I don't know that they really showed that much interest. Later when

00:31:57.690 - 00:32:12.170

we did the children's game, they were older. And uh I think- Yeah, we'll get to that. I wanna talk to you about that. So now take us past the prototype, and the initial order, and it's, it's time to to market this game and make people want

00:32:12.170 - 00:32:31.320

to buy it. How did that happen? Well, we did get, Paul, got some department store orders for us. So we we ended up getting into several major department stores to start. Uh, we didn't initially get the big ones, uh Marshall Fields and Macy's and Bloomingdale's until

00:32:31.320 - 00:32:50.800

later that year. But uh we started out, I think uh here in Houston Joske's and Sakowitz, Florida, because Doug, because the game was produced there. He had a number of contacts there. We got in several department stores in Miami and I think there was another one

00:32:50.810 - 00:33:08.370

in California maybe. Uh, but Houston, Miami really were where, uh, that the two major cities where it started. Of course, then we get the orders. We get the games produced and they arrive at the stores. And we just think people are gonna walk by and just

00:33:08.370 - 00:33:25.690

see our beautifully packaged game and they're just gonna want to buy it. Well, that is not, again, we were naive and that is not how products move off shelves by sitting there looking pretty. Um, So Doug Doug said right from the get go. He said, as

00:33:25.690 - 00:33:39.180

soon as we got those games that, he said, "You're gonna need some PR you know. You're gonna need publicity or advertising." And um he said, "I have someone here in Florida, I'm gonna put you in contact with and uh, I think he can get you, you

00:33:39.180 - 00:34:00.510

know, some initial publicity." We talked to him, we worked out, well, you know, what was gonna, what was gonna happen. And and sure enough, we got uh, the first, we got, the first ones were the Florida TV stations, local stations and newspapers, um, uh, interviewed us.

00:34:00.510 - 00:34:17.940

And as soon as an article appeared in the paper, or as soon as something was there, the games flew out of the store. And so we knew this is, this is what it's gonna take if we're going to keep, you know, keep selling these games. So,

00:34:17.950 - 00:34:34.540

so publicity just became just a major focus, probably for the first, at least the first several months Really, it never stopped. I mean, we were, we were always, you know, either on our own or through uh people that we hired, we were constantly looking uh, to

00:34:34.540 - 00:34:52.290

increase our publicity, because that's what caused the game to sell. And I mean, so what did happen was because the games all sold out so quickly. Uh, we had to fill more orders. We had to make more games, but we hadn't been paid for all of

00:34:52.290 - 00:35:14.880

those games that had just been sold. So we had to go out and borrow more money to make the second run of 5000. So, it was a continuous, it was exciting, and exhilarating but scary today, you know scary, you know, very scary. So it was just

00:35:14.890 - 00:35:28.820

the whole time, it was just a mix of all those emotions. And and plus knowing that we had borrowed money, it was very important to us that everyone got paid back. Whether we ever saw a penny was not near as important to us as that everyone

00:35:28.820 - 00:35:44.070

got paid back that had stepped forward and really helped us. And they did, I mean everyone certainly, you know, was paid back and but that, but that, was that, that hung over us for a long time until we could reach that point. When did you know,

00:35:44.080 - 00:36:02.900

what was the magic moment when you saw, oh my God this this is gonna work, this game is, people want to buy this game. For me, I think it certainly happened at the very beginning when when we saw the results of the publicity. When people would,

00:36:02.910 - 00:36:20.990

would like I said, something would air on TV and the next day everything was gone from the store. But I think, the moment where we truly hit the big time, was when we got it into Bloomingdale's, because that was always a goal from the beginning. And

00:36:21.000 - 00:36:38.310

uh and Susan Farb Morris and her partner who we had hired, she is here in Houston. Uh we had hired for some publicity and uh we got into the New York Times. We got an interview with the New York Times, and I think that was if

00:36:38.310 - 00:36:53.140

there was a highlight or a a wow moment, like, okay, the games made it. We've made it. And really, it was the game, I mean, we'll never forget being at Bloomingdale's, the day that, right after the article came out. It coincided with us going to do

00:36:53.140 - 00:37:09.040

a promotion at Bloomingdale's, and people were running up and literally as we were taking games out of the boxes and put them on the shelves, they were grabbing them out of our hands. They didn't care about meeting us. They wanted that game. So it really, even

00:37:09.040 - 00:37:24.610

though, to a certain extent, yes, it's about us. We're behind it. We did it. We created it, but people wanted that game and and that was just awesome to see these crazy people running up to us and just, you know. And then when we ran out

00:37:24.610 - 00:37:39.260

it's like, oh, "Put me down, I want six, I want one for all my children." And that, I think that was probably that day, that one day at Bloomingdale's, if there was just an aha moment for me, it was that. I'm not sure about you. Yeah,

00:37:39.270 - 00:37:54.470

it was during that trip and I remember that we really wanted to get it into FAO Schwarz. And we stopped by the offices of FAO Schwarz to see if we could speak to the buyer. And they said, "I'm sorry, the buyer only

00:37:54.470 - 00:38:12.390

talked to vendors on Thursdays." And it wasn't Thursday. And so we thought, well, okay, we tried and we turned around to leave and they called us back and he would see us. And yeah, and to me that was, wow. And um, yeah, but it was the

00:38:12.390 - 00:38:32.920

same trip. So, yeah. November 1985. 1985, New York City. I want to dwell for a minute on, I think it's one of the taglines that was used to sell the game. There was a decision and I'm curious about it to market this as the, the product,

00:38:32.920 - 00:38:51.470

the brainchild of three housewives. Talk about whose idea that was, and what was the, what was the motivation behind using that as a promotional gimmick? I don't remember, really, whose idea it was. I think, I think it was our friend George Rosenblatt, who when we realized

00:38:51.470 - 00:39:10.280

that we were going to have to send out press releases and try to get publicity. Um, I'm almost positive that it was George said, we we've got to have a unique angle. Um, you're three housewives, well, we're not sure we like that word really. And he

00:39:10.280 - 00:39:27.370

went, "No, that's what's gonna be the hook," he said, "You've got to have a hook." And um, three Jewish housewives from Houston, Texas. Certainly not like a big Jewish Mecca. Even though, of course, we have a sizable Jewish population here, but it's not like we're out

00:39:27.370 - 00:39:45.450

of New York or out of uh, you know, one of the bigger cities. Um and that was, that was, what we used, I think in everything we ever sent out. Yeah, yeah. And you see it in the articles and... Not just three Houston Jewish housewives but

00:39:45.460 - 00:40:04.210

with no prior entrepreneurial experience. Right? That was, that was part of the package too. Yeah, right. Well it's just, you know, it certainly makes you, makes you unique and made you, made you stand out. So we should talk about, um, creating the children's version of the

00:40:04.210 - 00:40:28.010

game. So at what point did you say, clearly this is a game for adults, but there's a market out there for a game for younger people. Well, um, during this time, I can't remember really what year it was, maybe '87, uh Judy and her husband moved

00:40:28.010 - 00:40:45.440

back to Florida. And so, uh, that left Estelle and I here. And I think it was at that point we decided to go ahead and uh maybe do a children's game. Um and so we just started working on that, it was just gonna be Estelle

00:40:45.440 - 00:41:03.300

and I. And uh, yeah and it was just--I think we saw the gap. We we debated what age range to use for the first version. And we ended up saying age 13 to adult because, we felt that like, by Bar/Bat Mitzvah age, you know,

00:41:03.300 - 00:41:16.730

kids are learned, have learned enough that they should be able to answer, at least a good number of these questions. And the game makes a great bar bar mitzvah present. Right. And we certainly gave it to a number of people for that for that very occasion.

00:41:17.070 - 00:41:34.710

Uh but I think because of the popularity of it, I think we saw that there there is a gap for younger Children. Um and um you know, I'm sure people ask us uh you know are you going to do a Children's version? Um so I think,

00:41:34.720 - 00:41:51.800

I don't know at one point we like decided to do it for sure, but we did feel it would be a good complement to the adult game. And so totally new questions. Um we used the same strategy, the same game strategy, but uh but new questions.

00:41:51.800 - 00:42:09.260

Easier questions, and we even had like two, the first two categories on every card, were really especially easy. And so that if younger children were playing with older children, they could maybe only answer questions from those two categories. So we were trying-- Did you market test it

00:42:09.270 - 00:42:28.070

with um kids, you knew? We probably are, I know we did with ours and I think that we did with with other kids to to see if it was too much over their heads or do we need to adapt or change. That's great. That's great. So

00:42:28.080 - 00:42:48.200

take us to sort of later in the decade and your kids are getting older and um what, what what happens then? Well, it got to where, because publicity, sales games and the best time to get publicity is when something is new on the market. As, as

00:42:48.210 - 00:43:03.150

time went by, it was harder to get publicity. Um, and it was even harder than we expected to get publicity for the children's game. Even though it was a new product, it still was an older story. I mean, this is our second game, it's not our

00:43:03.150 - 00:43:20.920

first and it's not the big news, I guess that it was the first time around. So in advertising is expensive. We certainly did some limited advertising in different venues. But, but we found that with the children's game going to CAJE conferences, places where Jewish educators were

00:43:20.920 - 00:43:34.590

going to be, that ended up being a much better market for the children's game than it had, had been for the adult version. I don't even know that we pursued those venues with the adult version. I don't think that we did. Uh, so we were going

00:43:34.590 - 00:43:50.230

to a lot of those type of conferences. Um um, and, but but the game was just, it was just moving slower and um, we, you know, it just, we just got to a point where how, how long do we need to want to keep doing this?

00:43:50.240 - 00:44:08.750

Um, uh we were, you know, yes, the kids were getting older. I was thinking about going back to school. Janice was looking, you know, to, you know, to get back in the workforce and it just, it just seemed like a time to wind things up. We,

00:44:08.750 - 00:44:25.330

I think we ended up with less than 1000 games and um maybe seven or 800. And um ended up selling them all to uh was it Jewish Educational Toys? There was someone that took them and just said that they, you know, they would market them. But

00:44:25.860 - 00:44:51.270

yeah. I just-- I think too, as far as the original game, what was happening was the major department stores that we were selling um the most amounts to were doing away with their stationary departments. And that's where the game was mostly, uh, you'd find the game

00:44:51.270 - 00:45:07.170

in that department stores. And so we started losing, we could see that we were going to lose some big amounts. And, and so I think at that point is kind of when we thought maybe it's time to start slowing down, so we're not stuck with a

00:45:07.170 - 00:45:24.260

lot of inventory. And I think it all kind of worked out. And plus, you know, you get to where we were filling a lot of orders to, to smaller game stores, synagogue gift shops, that only want six at a time or less, you know, so it.

00:45:24.270 - 00:45:41.730

And we were doing the shipping, um, so you know it became more work than really was I think justified by the sales and uh and what was happening. Do you have any just fond memories of people coming up to you and telling you how much they

00:45:41.730 - 00:45:56.720

love the game? I think those are the best memories. I mean the letters that we got and the people who just said, "Wow, I have learned so much. Or my kids love this. Or we stayed up all night playing this game." I mean, yeah, those are,

00:45:56.720 - 00:46:18.480

those are the memories. Uh but I have to say, those are great memories, but it the whole journey just doing it. Every all the agonizing, we did all the work, the all of it is a good memory. I mean, I can't look back and say, I

00:46:18.490 - 00:46:34.380

hated that part of it. I hated that part. That was just so hard. It, it just, it just all flowed. I think we knew from the beginning, we had a great product. We believed in it. Like, I mean, I can't even describe to you how much

00:46:34.380 - 00:46:52.560

we believed in the value of this game and, and how much we thought people would love it. We just never faltered in that belief and that just made everything that we did, uh worthwhile and exciting and uh and a good memory. I mean, I just looked

00:46:52.560 - 00:47:11.000

back and as hard as it was and as time consuming as it was and it's frustrating at times as it was, it was just all good. It really was. And looking back it was, I mean what an accomplishment and uh again, for not knowing really what

00:47:11.000 - 00:47:28.910

we were doing and just kind of going with our gut feeling. I can look back and say I'm really very proud of what we accomplished and, and what we will I guess leave behind us. You know and hope that uh you know future generations or whatever

00:47:28.910 - 00:47:51.240

may enjoy and enjoy the story. And uh never give up, never give up on your hopes and your dreams you, you just never know and um just stay positive. Yeah, it's really an incredible, remarkable story. I'm curious how you think it would be different if you

00:47:51.240 - 00:48:12.890

were doing it today? Oh my gosh, with with the internet age of the electronic age. It would, we we actually talked what about 10 years ago or so about doing like a 25th year anniversary edition. And I actually, I think I still have some questions that

00:48:12.900 - 00:48:30.520

I started working on and um, um but we knew it was going to have to be. Neither of us wanted to like put out another physical board game, but we thought well maybe questions that can come for people that have the old board, the old game,

00:48:30.520 - 00:48:45.730

you know, it can be a new set of cards. And we knew even 10 years ago that it would have to either be done electronically or CD. I mean we knew that there would have there would have to be some adaptation to the electronic age.

00:48:45.740 - 00:49:01.770

Um, gosh now like if we were doing it now, I guess people are still buying board games but I don't even know how people are playing these days. I don't know if we if we did something at this point to update it or to come out

00:49:01.770 - 00:49:19.750

with new questions how we do it, but we'd certainly have to, you know, be aware that we're in the internet age. It's different. I think everything from from the resources, you know, finding the material for questions, to the making of the game, to marketing it to

00:49:19.750 - 00:49:33.680

how you play it. You know, people play games on their on their phones now and on their tablets. You know, it's it's harder and harder to get folks to sit around the table and and and and play a board game. This is an incredible story. And

00:49:33.680 - 00:49:45.610

I want to thank both of you so much for taking the time to speak with us today and and record the, the incredible story of what you did. So thank you very much.