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Hello, Mr. Tsao, thank you so much for inviting—agreeing to do the interview. Would you please tell us your name and occupation? Yes. Hi, Shih-Hui, my name is Edward, and Chinese first name is Ing-Tay.

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Last name, of course, Tsao. What do you do? I'm an architect for about 40 years. Where were you born?

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I was born in Taipei, Taiwan, of course. And I was born on '54. When did you move to Houston? After I graduated from college, and

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I moved to Houston to study, '81. So, it's 41 years already. Yeah. Which school did you go to?

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I went to University of Houston, major in architecture— They have architecture department? They do, they do, they do. [SC: That's amazing.] Yeah, I spent two years in there to get a master, and then, start working, and, you know, raise the kids,

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and got my license, and start practicing. So, y-you've—tell me your current—your family, your-your—[ET: Oh, I have-] How many kids do you have? Well, one wife [SC: One wife.

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[laughs]] [ET laughs] and two kids, one daughter, only one daughter. And she's—she also graduated from the University of Houston. She's a graphic designer on his—on her own. And my son, Jeffrey, he got a PT

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master degree, and is a physical therapist doctor now, practicing Houston as well, so. That's great. You're lucky both your kids are with you, in Houston. Yeah, yeah, I'm very lucky.

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I mean, they-they love Houston, where they grow up so. Yeah. So, tell me a little bit about your childhood in Taiwan. What is it like? My parents moved from China, mainland China, to Taiwan, I

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believe is 1948. After the, you know, retreat to Taiwan, and my father, who was in the Air Force of Republic of China, under General Chiang Kai-shek.

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And I was born in Taiwan after my brother, and my second sister was also born in Taiwan. My oldest sister was born in Beijing. And we-we had a very—you

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know, material-wise, back then, is not so well. However, I have a very good family that my parents love us very well. And-and I have a very, very playful childhood, I will say, yeah.

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Can you tell me what's playful about your childhood? Well, I lived in a village that was—that is a Air Force base village, that—we have many kids in our age.

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So, we played together and–and–and— The neighborhood kids? And the neighborhood kids. And then we went to the same kindergarten and elementary schools, speak the same

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language. Of course, I speak a little dialect of Sichuan, because the elementary school a lot of teacher and principal was Sichuan people. They move from Sichuan to Taipei. So, life was very simple, even

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though we don't have too much material or toys or anything, but we create a lot of things that are our own, and then— yeah, it's very-very—I had a very happy life back then.

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What were some of the values that your parents emphasized, in your upbringing? Again? What-what was—what was some kind of—what was the—some of the values that your parents emphasize [ET: Oh.] during your upbringing?

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[ET: Well—] Did they tell you, “Be honest”? They were busy raising four kids. So, pretty much they leave us to the school in the neighborhood. And most of the background of the

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parents live in the village 'cause it's an Air Force base village. So, about the same, but I remember my-my parents, especially my mother, told me a lot of Chinese history and family values and how they survived during World War

00:05:07.390 - 00:05:22.820

Two. That's the sad part of their life. However, it's very impress-impressive to me that— and make me pretty interested in Chinese history. Yeah.

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It would imagine that’s right after the Second World War, right, and for your parents to move from mainland China to Taiwan, you imagine that life is kind of tough, I mean, also immigrating to Taiwan. Do you feel, what—but you told me you have wonderful childhood,

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with [ET: Right.] but did you feel, did you feel [ET: Awkward or anything?] it was difficult, the other way? Anything that's challenging? Not really, not really. Like I say, we live in the village that– with the same background.

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My father worked in the Air Force that—he used to be a teacher, that during World War Two, that he joined the army—or joined the Air Force, worked in the martial law court. And, no, I don't–I don't feel any-any strange

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or odd feeling when-when I grew up, 'cause even the kindergarten, like I say, the elementary school, that—it's a Airforce elementary school. So, you know, all the kids' background are the same. Community, you know, one community [ET: Right, right, right.

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So, we—] that feels part of a community. Yeah, we have, that elementary school is very impressive to me. All the teachers and the facility even, I feel a little bit better than the normal elementary school in Taipei City.

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So,—of course, we study hard, and even getting to the junior high school, I have to pass a very tough exam to get into a good reputable elemen— I mean, junior high school, which I did, you know, after study, and I—where my father

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pushed me very hard, I think. Hard working. So, that's one thing that your parents instilled in you that you have to work hard to [ET: Yeah, yeah, yeah.] be successful. Well, the family education is that you have to study hard and work, you know, so

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you can get into a good school and then find a good oc-occupation, and even, you know, move to United States. That's what their aim to us is. Yeah.

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Did you think you were gonna come to the United States even then? Yeah, yeah. Now, was your goal that after you graduate from the school you want to come to United States?

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Kind of, kind of, because Shih-Hui, as you know, our society back then was very much influenced by the Western culture, especially American culture. And when we grow up, we listen to the American pop

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song, and folk song, and we dance, and we say— Disco, is that disco time? In college. [SC: In college.] And we study—in college, of

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course, we study some, you know, in textbooks, and that in college, that—when I get into architecture major, I think it's better for me to move to United States, if I can study further. I think I had a dream when I was

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in college. Yeah. That you want to come to United States? I want to come to United States, yeah. And you fulfill the dream now.

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Not only that, [ET: Kind of, yeah.] you’re here for 40 years, right? Yeah. 41 years, yeah. 41 years, yeah. I—of course, we have to serve the army for two years [SC: Right.] back then, after

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college graduation. Yes, all the male has to fulfill their duty. Yeah, pretty tough but I think, that's my obligation to the country. So, you know, I have two—pretty-pretty tough two

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years. So, you don't feel any waste of your time to go to [ET: Not-not—] military because some kids now thinking, [ET: Yeah.] why even go to this? [ET: Right, right, right.] They are—they are shorter nine [ET: Right.] months, and they

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don't—they think [ET: Yeah, yeah.] that's like, that's a waste of their time. [ET: Right.] You know, it's important time, and you're twenty years. [ET: Right.] And you are spending two years in the army training. But back then, I think under the

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political pressure or environment that all the youngsters like us, we-we feel kind of honored to serve the country for two years. Even though right after you graduate, you got your major and then you have to waste two

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years. But during the army time, I was a second lieutenant at first, that I learned how to—the leadership of the soldiers, everything, and also, I was moved to-to-to a staff member of the, of the—in army anyway,

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so I have more free time after office hour. So, I study a little bit on my own, you know, English, history, and even I can study architecture-architecture by myself. So, I feel very comfortable for the two

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years that have spent in army. Yeah. I want to stop for a second. Just want to make sure we have a good—

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All right, I want to ask you something that's a bit off–Sidetrack a little bit. [ET: Okay.] So, during those times, the-the relationship between China and Taiwan is kind of [unintelligible] [ET: Yeah.]. Yeah. Against each other.

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[SC: Stressed. Yeah.] Yeah. So, you feel it's your honor to do to serve in the, in the army. But now, I mean, recently, it's getting worse. But, but now there's really—there's no reason that China and

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Taiwan should have that kind of tension. [SC: Right.] right. So, that's the young people's theory, like, why are we even doing this? Like, they're China and Taiwan. Now, people go freely back and forth between China and Taiwan, they even do business

00:11:41.880 - 00:12:00.010

with-with China. So, why is it still important to do-to have this medical, military duty? Well, you're getting into political issue [laughs] now, or [SC: Yeah, I mean, it’s our [unintelligible] of course, with my personal

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background of history of China, as well as cultural background, I do believe myself, that those two countries should be reunited. But, you know, after I left for 41 years, so everything

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changed in Taiwan. So, I don't know, I don't know. But now, they shortened the military service to five months. And based on

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my military experiences, when I served in the army, I don't think the Army or Air Force or Navy has better training nowadays. So, you know, that's my personal feeling.

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As to the politics, I cannot say too much. But that leaves to the-to the future, I guess. Yeah. Okay. But you think that was a good gap year, between after you graduated from college and before you went onto your next stage, that

00:13:09.160 - 00:13:27.720

was a gap year, those two years actually helped you? Well, not really help, but you know, as I say, I–I use my spare time to study, even TOEFL English, you know, get ready GRE and everything.

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But in the army, I learned a lot. I read a lot of books, especially about Chinese history and, you know, because I'm always interested in that part. Yeah.

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Okay, so you have-you wanted to be an architect, since you were in college? Yes, yes. Why architect?

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What’s the passion? Well, back then, I think you know, that-that we have to pass a very tough exam to get into college, as to how to choose your major.

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I will say, you know, you can control 50% and leave the other 50%. According to your-your grades, everything. I remember, I would have to fill a list of our

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major that we wish to go to. I remember I put architectural major before the computer science, even though my scores that I can get into computer science major in

00:14:44.940 - 00:14:59.790

Dong Wu University, but I moved my architectural major in front of that. So, I was assigned to the architecture school. That means I'm—when I filled up the–the list of

00:15:01.080 - 00:15:18.790

majors, that I move most of the architectural major ahead of others. So, I feel like when I was younger, I liked architecture. So, maybe that's why and luckily, I got into the

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architecture major of Chung Yuan University. And now you're responsible in United States, you—you build so many buildings and tell me what–how–where– where's your practice, where—what kind of buildings do you [unintelligible].

00:15:38.320 - 00:15:56.130

Well, my career is—I spent a few years in an architect's office learning after I got my master's degree, and then you have to study and get ready for the exam, or the licensing exam. So, I finally got the license.

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passed the license exam, or, or proof of every courses in 1986, I believe. And then I-I started practicing on my own by doing some small projects,

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like a small house or small restaurant freestanding building and restaurant interior design and everything. And for a certain period of time, I even work as a general contractor that I designed and built for my client

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until like to 1994, that I had an opportunity to work for the city of Houston government. So, I changed my job to project manager in a housing department store from

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1994 to 1998. And in 1998, I have a very good opportunity to design a big facility that one of my friends that wants to purchase a land,

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a large land. And she asked me, and—do I want to quit the city and being architect for her? Which I did. This is a—biggest project that I ever did in my career. Where is this place?

00:17:26.590 - 00:17:39.300

It's in the city of Houston. And it's called Qualmark, furniture wholesale, and become an industrial park, which the last about 20 acres. And the building I designed.

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It's about total 440,000 square foot with a big office area and rest of our warehouse. And that helped me to quit the city job and work in an office again, in 1998.

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And since then, I start taking all kinds of commercial projects, including office warehouse, restaurant, and many office warehouse I do a lot. Like this building, you know, this facility we designed it, I mean [SC: in

00:18:20.500 - 00:18:36.500

Chinatown], this we call Corporate Plaza office complex, or office condo that everybody on their own condo, that we designed the two story. I design—my office designed a two-story office building here, which

00:18:38.930 - 00:18:56.800

I think is very convenient, and a very economical design. So, that a lot of small individual business owner, well, office only can purchase a unit, and then you know occupy your

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office whenever. Yeah. Yeah. So, during—you've been practicing architectural design for 41 years, what's the most exciting event you can remember?

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Well, event, I don't know, but [SC: Or instant, or–] like I say, I have a good opportunity. I'm lucky enough to design a big facility and then I do design some other warehouse building there like that one.

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[I] won, a little award, you know, because of the exterior design thing. Like this building, I designed it and then bought one unit and then I move my office from Harbin to here.

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So, it's pretty exciting that I finally own my own office. And— You have a space your–your—you feel belonging here, right. And then the building I designed so, in Chinatown area.

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So, it's pretty excited. That's the—yeah. How about any challenging, any thing that is difficult during this 41 years?

00:20:20.500 - 00:20:38.580

I think the most difficult time you know, practice not 41 years because I have to spend few years to prepare for the license exam, which I finally pass it. That is very—it's a

00:20:38.920 - 00:20:59.270

memory–memorable moment that I remember I finally got the license that I dreamed of and–and I'm architect, licensed architect in the United States, and so that I can practice on my own. I remember that moment very clear.

00:20:59.860 - 00:21:16.660

That's exciting moment. Yeah, it's not a challenging moment. The exam is pretty tough [SC: I see.]. Back then, you know, we don't have computer to draw or anything, we have to carry a drawing board, like, have this big table, and

00:21:16.660 - 00:21:30.950

to a Fort–Forth Worth every year, only one time. So, I spent two years to pass the exam. But you have to spend four full days in Fort Worth, to take the exam.

00:21:31.380 - 00:21:43.050

Of course, the second time, I only have three quarts left. But it's pretty tough. Yeah. How do you identify yourself? Do you-how do you identify yourself?

00:21:44.580 - 00:22:05.100

Well, there's a interesting question. I was very, I was kind of naughty. You know, when I grew up, in elementary and junior high school, I was very sporty as well.

00:22:05.660 - 00:22:21.180

I played basketball and volleyball very much and representing the school. And I spend a lot of time in, on the court in volleyball or basketball. And got injured, of course, and

00:22:24.830 - 00:22:41.750

I'm the youngest one in my family. So, I assume my sister and brother always spoil me. And, but I-I think I'm pretty independent. And by, you know,

00:22:42.510 - 00:23:00.990

by learning in school, and you know, in learning from sports, and that's why I always want to train my son, be a very sporty man. So, he plays soccer, for school team for, you know, all the time

00:23:01.100 - 00:23:21.810

until college. But I am very—I have different kinds of interest. When I study, like I say, you know, we were influenced by the Western culture back then, when we grow up, and I play guitar,

00:23:22.610 - 00:23:40.880

I sing–I listen to American songs, folk song, pop song, BGS, BETOs, Brat, Tom Jones, everybody that will listen to their songs. And that's how we can learn better English as well.

00:23:41.510 - 00:24:00.820

And so, I play guitar. I was pretty Western style, before I moved to the United States, and that's why

00:24:00.900 - 00:24:17.980

we can learn English and then merge into the society better than some-some other immigrants. But anyway, I'm very family oriented as well. Right? [ET: Yeah.] Do you identify yourself as Chinese, Taiwanese

00:24:18.670 - 00:24:35.290

American, Taiwanese American, Chinese American? Does any of this? Yeah. Well, this question is kind of sensitive to, to me because I always think I'm a

00:24:35.320 - 00:24:54.420

Chinese based on my family education, with my Chinese culture and history, background, and I that's well, how I teach my children to be and my daughters speak very good.

00:24:54.920 - 00:25:19.420

Mandarin. And my son as well, but not as good as her–his sister. I study Chinese history a lot when I was in college. At certain time, I even wants to study history as a

00:25:19.440 - 00:25:35.790

major, or archaeologies as a major. That's a funny thought. But I was very interested—I am still, is in Chinese culture and

00:25:37.250 - 00:25:49.380

Chinese architecture, Chinese music, and so that we can talk about Chinese opera later. Yeah. So, do you identify yourself as Chinese American?

00:25:49.850 - 00:25:57.250

[ET: Yes, yes.] Or Chinese? Oh, a Chinese American, of course. After 41 years. So, do you identify yourself?

00:25:57.610 - 00:26:14.410

Chinese American or Taiwanese American? I consider myself Chinese American [SC: Chinese American.]. Yeah, I'm American now, after 41 years, you know, I–I don't think I would be used to the living style in

00:26:14.560 - 00:26:24.710

Taiwan or in China, right? It's just except visiting or touring. Yeah. When did you start your Chinese opera training?

00:26:26.210 - 00:26:37.670

In Taiwan? Or did you start? No, not really. I mean, like, I say that I was pretty much Westernized. Before I come to the United States.

00:26:38.980 - 00:26:59.020

You know, the music that I listen to is American song. Very occasionally, those orchestra or, you know, not that many that I play guitar, I sing American songs and everything.

00:26:59.880 - 00:27:16.390

And after I come to United States, my parents visited me, and they don't have any recreation or anything, because they have to stay in house all the time. So, I start renting the Chinese opera

00:27:18.440 - 00:27:36.710

video for them to-to watch at home. Before that, I remember I was a kids, and my father used to take me to Chinese opera performances, in particular Air Force base theater.

00:27:37.480 - 00:27:56.490

And I remember all those characters or–or–or scenario, it's in my memory. And then when I watched those Chinese opera video with my parents, you know, all those interests came back to me.

00:27:57.420 - 00:28:15.120

And then I start remember all the Chinese opera that I watch with my father, when I was a very young kid, and then I start getting more interested into the stories or a history of Chinese opera.

00:28:16.170 - 00:28:35.170

That was, I was talking about like 35 years ago, and then I start renting or get online to watch those video or Chinese opera related story by myself again, so that's how I started.

00:28:36.450 - 00:28:50.640

So, you-you, by watching Chinese opera tape–tapes, then you feel you're more interesting to it. [ET: Yeah, more interested into it] but still, how did you started to learn? That's a long story.

00:28:50.640 - 00:29:01.580

To then, the Chinese opera club in Houston, Right, right, right. Singing is another thing. But keep in mind that if you're interested in Chinese opera, you have

00:29:01.580 - 00:29:22.010

to have some historical background or history background of Chinese culture, so that it will—into the Chinese opera. Okay. So, it's-it's very difficult to have a Chinese opera club in the United States, as you can imagine, right?

00:29:22.230 - 00:29:41.080

Can you tell us one of the most frustrating experience or challenging situation you had in the past 20 years? Well, the people interested in Chinese opera is getting scarce

00:29:42.700 - 00:30:03.060

now. Sometimes you feel frustrated when you try to get more members into a club. Of course, like I mentioned that about 15 years ago, we don't have too many members back then, after the older generation members had

00:30:03.130 - 00:30:17.670

passed away. And we spend a lot of time try to get the new immigrants into our clubs. But slowly, recent years, we have regained more members.

00:30:20.740 - 00:30:38.920

Yeah, you always feel so frustrated if your–if your interest is not very popular to other people in the community. Especially when you feel that this culture activity is very, very important or very

00:30:39.570 - 00:30:51.240

interesting. At least we think so. But yeah, that's the main part. Do you have one special incident? [ET: Not necessarily] Just daily?

00:30:51.690 - 00:31:10.030

Just week by week trying to make this happen and? Yeah, we–Adam and I spend so much time to promote it. We–we–we participated in many cultural activities in Houston, in the mainstream.

00:31:12.320 - 00:31:32.070

You know, for my part, I have to spend, like two or more hours to get myself ready to sing part of the episode, just five minutes, [SC: That includes makeup…] includes makeup, make the hairs and, you know, the helmets,

00:31:32.170 - 00:31:44.260

and then the whole dress. But we still enjoy it. However, you think about it. You spent two and three or almost three hours, for five or three minute

00:31:44.520 - 00:31:57.550

performances, and not too many people appreciate it. So, that makes you frustrated. But—you know. And that's not only true in United States, but also in China, in Taiwan, [ET: Yeah, like

00:31:57.550 - 00:32:11.530

in China and Taiwan.] not a lot of people have interest in it [ET: Yes, yes.] anymore. Luckily, I think in China now it’s coming back. A lot of youngsters started getting into it or started

00:32:11.530 - 00:32:28.070

liking it. So, that's a good part of it. And then, you know, they have so many TV programs, introducing Chinese opera. And I heard that they even teach the Chinese opera in junior high or high school.

00:32:28.650 - 00:32:37.330

Yeah. That music class, which is good. Yeah. Who are your audience when you perform? Who are your audience?

00:32:38.550 - 00:32:55.760

In here, yeah, that's another frustrating part. That every time we perform on a stage, we have, of course, we have to make up for few hours. And backstage, everybody is so busy and everything, and just for two

00:32:55.760 - 00:33:15.560

hours, performances for four episodes. But audience-wise we have to spend our own money to invite friends and older–many older generation Chinese immigrants to watch our performances.

00:33:17.210 - 00:33:33.310

Some youngsters come but they are free tickets and you know, friends, and all of that so. So, you–the opera, the club is–you pay dues, and that's how you can get money?

00:33:33.340 - 00:33:50.600

Yeah, we pay monthly, I mean, $20, or annually $240 to support our club, because we have to rent the space to practice and we have to reserve some money for future performances. But every performances we had, we

00:33:53.070 - 00:34:09.050

lost money. You know, the budget is very much-because we have to hire professional band members. We have to pay them because they are professional from China. And we have to rent the audio-or the theater.

00:34:10.120 - 00:34:26.210

We have to spend a lot of money, and then we had budget every time, but we–it’s negative every time, the income, so that's another frustration. So, you mean you have to hire–you have to ask teacher from China or all

00:34:26.210 - 00:34:40.430

the way from China to come here to help you? Well, we perform on the stage. Not all the way from China, but we–we invite some artist like violin players from Canada or when they visit their children here

00:34:41.060 - 00:34:53.540

and that we know they are professional. So, we hire them or we pay for—we compensate them for the–for the extra time. They help us to practice in the-on the stage. Yes, yes.

00:34:54.460 - 00:35:07.190

Yeah, that is really frustrating. But when you–when you like it, you pay for it. —noise he make, but you never feel that you will catch him.

00:35:09.640 - 00:35:29.620

That particular section of the scene that will make you sing hundreds of times, or even thousands of times. I used to perform in a community that just sing one part over and over, over and over. I remember when I got into the car that the older generation

00:35:29.690 - 00:35:50.090

friends or the-the members, the first thing they taught me is that, for this part of the floor or face(?), go back home and practice 500 times first to try to make your noise or voice

00:35:51.420 - 00:36:08.470

more close to the master singing. So, you just keep on practicing. That's it. I mean, every—you will never lose the enthusiasm to learn how he sing, the

00:36:08.470 - 00:36:20.030

master. So, that keeps us going. Yeah. So, I want to go back to your father. So, when you were a child, when your father was in

00:36:20.640 - 00:36:38.180

Taiwan, and so going to see–here, a Chinese opera is something that people from Mainland China, when they go to Taiwan, they get together to– something that they feel—that something they as a community they love to do that together.

00:36:39.320 - 00:36:46.980

Right? Through the Chinese opera– Well, not my parents. Not my father. [SC: Not your father.] He’s a listener only. Right, I mean yes, so he likes to go there.

00:36:47.260 - 00:36:58.170

All– he loves– all the people in Taiwan who–who came from Mainland, China. Right? And they were in their community. They went to the Chinese [ET: Right.] opera to listen.

00:36:58.170 - 00:37:11.560

[ET: Right.] That’s something (?) [ET: Right.] using Chinese opera as a mean to make them feel like that's where the–it's a belonging if you're— Right, right. You–I think you're right back then. And then, the similar thing in United States.

00:37:11.990 - 00:37:31.890

Now the Chinese are proud because of its– now you have a club, you actually sing, but it (?) again, using Chinese opera as something that you feel [ET: As a bond.] as a bond, a belonging [ET: Of each other, and then.] mainland China to Taiwan, or you Taiwanese born come to United States, Chinese opera is

00:37:31.920 - 00:37:46.960

still is something that bonds you with your other people together. Right. I think you're right. [Telephone ringing] But, the main reason they listen to Chinese opera back then, my father generation, is that back then

00:37:46.960 - 00:38:05.970

they don't have too much recreation or so. And the government or the Army, Air Force Navy, always have their own Chinese opera singing group to perform to. So, all the older generation, they went to watch as

00:38:05.970 - 00:38:17.950

a bond to Chinese culture. They don't sing, most of them. They don't sing because those are professional singers. But they-they

00:38:19.120 - 00:38:34.980

like to watch. So, that's why my father likes to watch all the episodes. If you're asking one story of that part, they can tell you the whole story. [SC: Mhm.] And who's sing this part? Who sing that part. So, it's-it's a-it's a– it's

00:38:36.510 - 00:38:57.230

a bond of their generation as well. And then, of course, nowaday, you can tell they in Taiwan or in China, that Chinese opera is not a very popular cultural activity, even though Chinese government now try to push it or educate

00:38:57.370 - 00:39:12.040

youngsters into it. In Taiwan, there is no Chinese opera professional singer, not that many. There are some, but not group. There are some people, personal, supporting the

00:39:13.000 - 00:39:29.740

Chinese opera, but their own fund. That is very good, however, is not there, it's not too many people enjoy that Chinese opera now. But in United States, it's about the same. In our Chinese club, I remember 10 or 15 years ago,

00:39:30.380 - 00:39:49.690

you know, off, some of our older generation pass away, and we-we don't have so many members anymore. So, me and Adam, our-our president, we have to start writing articles and put on the Chinese newspaper to

00:39:49.690 - 00:40:05.410

encourage people to join us. And after those efforts, finally, you know, we have some people start getting interesting into it. Mainly it’s from mainland China, that they do have some Chinese opera background,

00:40:05.980 - 00:40:23.610

even though it's Yonhap Shi(?) that new pop–new style of Chinese opera, but they have that background, it will be much easier for them to learn traditional Chinese opera that we are singing now. So, luckily, that's, you know, we have more members now.

00:40:24.300 - 00:40:39.950

So, what's the background of your members in general? Right now, they mostly from mainland China? Oh, yeah. Mostly. Mostly. Cause immigrants from Taiwan not– we don't have too many now,

00:40:39.950 - 00:40:59.580

nowadays in Houston at least, or in the whole United States in our age that we move here to study and get degree and start working, stay here, but that situation change to China. Now, most people move here to study and get degree and start

00:40:59.580 - 00:41:19.560

working as scientists, high tech, IT people and then like I'd say they have some Chinese opera background during the–in China while they were in China, even though it's–it's Yonba Shi(?),not the real Chinese traditional opera, but the music background is about the

00:41:19.560 - 00:41:40.030

same, so they have a better advantage to learn the tradi– How do you take—How do you describe the Asian American community in Houston? When I came over to Houston, there were more Chinese

00:41:41.910 - 00:42:01.280

from Taiwan, Hong Kong or overseas in an Asian country. But lately, after–for the past 20 years, I believe more immigrants from China. And by my spare time when I was younger, I involved into Chinese community activities a lot.

00:42:02.240 - 00:42:17.830

Like, I was executive member of CCC, Chinese Community Center. And I also evolved into some political activities here in Houston, Chinese political

00:42:18.280 - 00:42:38.410

part that, um that I–I also educate my children, as a Chinese, so that you should get more–more into the mainstream activities. So, you know, I think

00:42:40.860 - 00:42:55.130

Chinese community in Houston area, including all the Chinese came over from different Asian region or–or countries is more united nowadays than before. Yeah.

00:42:55.570 - 00:43:09.280

How so? [ET: How?] How so? What do you say that? Because, well, you can tell from the political activities that everybody got involved in the

00:43:09.430 - 00:43:26.160

past 20 years. And I do believe that by their financial background, by their technical background, educational background, everything together, I think

00:43:27.770 - 00:43:34.500

it's much better now. Yeah. Why is-what was it? Was it bad before? [ET: It's not.] Now?

00:43:34.500 - 00:43:48.780

No, it's not bad before. It's just like 30-40 years ago, everybody's studying and then struggle for their better life, or better family, and everything now.

00:43:50.070 - 00:44:06.010

Everybody is more stable, so that they can spend more time to get into the community activities. So, it is in your generation, but the still younger students– Younger generation as well.

00:44:06.280 - 00:44:24.840

[SC: They are more [unintelligible]. So, like my children, you know, they are Chinese American, or American Chinese. My daughter, it's pretty active in the community service as well. And my son, well, my son is younger, but you know, when there is an

00:44:24.840 - 00:44:42.680

event or activities, they always, you know, join and help. So, what kind of activities what kind of– Well, for example, like my daughter, she a Democrat–Democrats, and she got involved into political activities

00:44:43.580 - 00:44:59.090

very much. She goes, she goes fundraising or she goes– She–she goes to fundraising, and she goes to election activities, and she got online and then promote it or–-that

00:45:00.530 - 00:45:13.800

I don't have control of, but–but they're, they're pretty–they're pretty— Yeah, I–I say that's a that's a very—it's very true for the younger generation.

00:45:13.800 - 00:45:26.830

Yeah. My daughter, too. [ET: Yeah.] She's only a sophomore, but she's very political. [ET: Yeah.] But you and I know, our generation, we went ended the martial law, right? I look at policemen are walking away.

00:45:26.830 - 00:45:38.710

I don't want to be a part of—I don't want to go there. Well, I'm a little bit different. I got involved into Chinese and Taiwan's political activities a lot.

00:45:39.110 - 00:45:53.530

Before, when I was younger, like 20 years ago, but now– What do you know, what do you do? Well, I support a certain political party in Taiwan, and then I donate money and then organize the activities here and to support

00:45:53.600 - 00:46:07.360

certain parties. So, yeah, that's my personal–personal interest. Right. Do you do it here? [ET: Yeah.] Do you support political [unintelligible]?

00:46:08.880 - 00:46:23.290

Yeah, yeah, I got involved into a lot of political activities 20 years ago. How about here, right now? Yeah, also, we also do, we also do. [SC: What kind of political–political—] Well, when I was a–when I was a member

00:46:23.390 - 00:46:42.870

of CCC that was 20 years ago or 15 years ago. We–you know–July the 4th, we organize the–the people to help to decorate the barrier boulevard (?) with all the American flags and all that, so you know, those that's smart event, but

00:46:43.730 - 00:46:56.800

we got involved into a lot of mainstream politics, activities as well. Like, what, voting? What? Specifically, do you feel comfortable talking about it?

00:46:56.800 - 00:47:16.320

Not really specifically, but, but I help the local election, like Martha Wong, Goulding, Huang (?) a lot of Chinese Americans—. Chinese American, you help Chinese Americans [ET: right.] to be more well–well known and

00:47:16.320 - 00:47:27.620

to be aware— Right, right. And then if we can get them help them to be elected and then, you know, our voice will be heard more, Right. [ET: Yeah.] So, you feel like it's recent

00:47:28.330 - 00:47:41.160

people–people in recent years, the Asian Americans tend to be more, they are working together much better to bring up the awareness. The visibility of Asian Americans. Sure. Sure. I always believe so.

00:47:41.310 - 00:48:01.450

And then that's what I encourage my children to do. Like my daughter is helping Ben Chao–Ben Cho to–to be elected into the commissioner position lately, recently. Yeah. [SC: Yeah.] She's pretty active in the Asian youngsters,

00:48:02.100 - 00:48:20.970

political activity or other activities. All these years, since you have stayed in the United States, do you ever encountered discrimination? A lot of people ask me that, but I

00:48:20.970 - 00:48:38.080

really don't ever feel it. Even when I worked for city of Houston, in the housing department for four–almost five years. And, of course, in the department is all minority, or majority are

00:48:38.290 - 00:48:57.410

minorities. And I don't feel like I'm being discriminated. When I quit my job, they even want me to stay there, and then try to promote me, but for my personal career, I have to, you know, to be architect on the private sector, [SC: Your own practice.] on my own

00:48:57.510 - 00:49:11.970

practice in the private sector, so I decided to quit, but I feel like being–I never feel like being discriminated. I no, I never. Okay, excellent. Yeah.

00:49:12.790 - 00:49:28.930

What is the future for this Houston, Chinese opera club? What do you think? Well, you know, our member we always had meetings and discuss about it. And it's not very optimistic.

00:49:29.930 - 00:49:47.650

The reason is, you know, all the-you know, people doesn't like it anymore. Or, without promotion, they don't like it. So, I feel frustrated sometimes, but-but we will

00:49:48.070 - 00:50:06.200

keep on going. Like we had meeting recently, all the board members that we think after two, three, no more than that. We didn't have any public performances anymore. So, we are planning to, [SC: because of the pandemic.] because of the pandemic, and

00:50:06.260 - 00:50:27.570

so–even before the pandemic. We are trying to organize either stage performances or “Chin Chon,” meaning you want to sing part– not makeups. Try to bring up the interests from the community as

00:50:27.740 - 00:50:39.570

well. But it takes some time, especially during this pandemic, period. Of course. Yeah. So, right now, you just have to wait and see.

00:50:39.980 - 00:50:50.460

[ET: Yeah, yeah.] What's a better way to keep going [ET: Right, yeah.] Yeah. Do you guys hang out? I mean, the members. [ET: Yeah. Sometimes we—] do you hang out outside of the Chinese opera club.

00:50:50.730 - 00:51:07.910

Yeah. Sometimes we have dinner together in person. In one of the members house or we drink and we sing karaoke. And-or party afterwards, we always sing Chinese opera together.

00:51:08.940 - 00:51:27.610

I mean, you know, Adams and other members bring the instruments and after dinner, we always sing together, I think. Yeah, that's our common interest anyway, so that's what we did. Yeah. All the time.

00:51:33.790 - 00:51:54.300

Hey, Mr. Tsao, thank you again for spending time with us this afternoon. It's April 28, three o'clock. So, I want to follow up a couple of questions with you. [ET: Sure.] First one is

00:51:54.660 - 00:52:08.450

how did you support yourself during your student times at UH? Oh, of course, you know, as everybody else, we have to work part-time.

00:52:09.070 - 00:52:28.870

And I was a teaching assistant when I was studying the master, as a structure course, but– and after that I have to work part time selling ice cream and doing some drafting for some landscape company or some architect.

00:52:29.380 - 00:52:39.740

[SC: Ok, yeah.] So, I was busy. Yeah, some was selling ice cream. That's [ET: Yeah.] interesting. Yeah. Yeah so, as I was selling ice cream in the Astros dome,

00:52:40.210 - 00:52:53.230

while watching all the baseball, football games, because [SC: Wow.] on the–on the–on the open area when they have a game. So, did you–How do you do it?

00:52:53.230 - 00:53:07.470

Did somebody–did you have a stand [ET: Yeah, yeah.], did you just have to show up? Or did you just have to [ET: No, no, no.] prepare your own ice cream? We have a–we have a stand–a cart. You have to get a cart and the ice cream from the warehouse and then push it,

00:53:07.890 - 00:53:27.240

or take the elevator of course, push to whichever level that you were assigned to and then start selling and, you know, at the halftime or when the game stops, we are very busy. Line up many people and you have to keep on scooping the

00:53:28.040 - 00:53:35.840

ice cream for the customer. [SC: laughs] Was it fun? Was it something interest—was a fun experience? Or just an interesting—

00:53:36.050 - 00:53:49.690

Well, it was fun. But well, when you get the money, it was very fun, of course, and they was tired. You know, all the games start from like, 6 to, like, after we clean up the

00:53:49.690 - 00:54:01.910

car and push it back to the warehouse. Got home, it will be about 11:30 or 12. So, you know, but-but that's fine. I mean, you know, as long as I can make some money support myself and family.

00:54:02.390 - 00:54:15.630

Yeah. Right. Right. And so—but also, because of your skill you can do, you can do some drawing. Yeah, I do. I part time worked for, I remember, a

00:54:15.680 - 00:54:34.090

landscape- for a landscape company and also a patio-patio manufacturer or patio contractor that they do patio, the– in the backyard for customer in residential houses, and we have to do all the plans.

00:54:34.660 - 00:54:54.440

And if they do a pagoda, we have to draw the elevation and y’know, all that. And I do work for architect-architect as a part time drafter. Which I learned from. Even before I-I got my degree, so that's good.

00:54:55.420 - 00:55:09.370

And so, was it [ET: Experience of course.] Yes, it's a great learning experience as well. Was there any instant you remember was particularly interesting? It could be sad or happy, I mean—

00:55:09.710 - 00:55:26.070

No, no, no, I was very happy [SC: unintelligible] no I was very happy during the studying time. And then before I got my degree, I had my daughter. So, I have to support my family, of course, and

00:55:26.870 - 00:55:40.340

work harder. And yeah, I was happy near my wife and with my daughter, Right. Did you get your job right away, right after you graduate? Did you have a period you were—

00:55:40.340 - 00:55:54.230

Kind of. Kind of. I remember back then it was pretty tough. Because back in 1983, Houston had a big recession. Lasted about like ‘87

00:55:54.290 - 00:56:14.590

or so. But anyway, after I graduated, I started calling all the architects’ office and we have one year practical training. And then I got my degree, graduated, officially, like in June, but I found a job luckily enough, or

00:56:14.590 - 00:56:31.450

work for architect office on July 1983. And even though the pay is not very well, but that's my first job. And of course, I worked hard.

00:56:32.200 - 00:56:49.880

And we do a lot of residential, back in the north Houston area, that is building very many houses, or subdivision and we work, I work on the houses design or drafting, and then top housing the subdivision.

00:56:51.330 - 00:57:07.130

It’s quite interesting, I learned a lot, you know, skills of drafting in that company. And I worked for that company about like, one and a half year I believe.

00:57:07.420 - 00:57:26.280

And then I found another, new job in League City, the company's general contractor, they build commercial buildings, which are more interesting too and I worked with the vice president who is a structural engineer.

00:57:27.420 - 00:57:46.310

And we work together as a–I was not licensed then, but as architect and structural engineer, we work on many projects, commercial, you know, like, retail center, daycare building, restaurant, and I'm the only one that do the drawing and seeing the

00:57:46.340 - 00:58:05.780

company. And we have to get all the subcontractor to my office, in which–where I learned a lot from the subcontractor like the plumber, electrician, air conditioning contractor, and I learned a lot [SC: I see.] that helped me to get my license on the [SC: I see.]

00:58:06.480 - 00:58:21.610

mechanical, electrical and plumbing and even site–site design. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I want to ask, do you remember the normalization between China and United States when

00:58:21.610 - 00:58:35.210

Nixon went to China, and soon after, that America would recognize China, and–and does not-did not recognize Taiwan? Were you in Taiwan then? No, no, I moved here already.

00:58:35.210 - 00:58:48.990

[SC: You moved here already.] Oh, no, no, no, hold on, no, I was in Taiwan. I was in Taiwan in-I think I was in [SC: Was it 1979?] freshman or in high school? I don't remember exactly.

00:58:48.990 - 00:59:02.080

[SC: Yeah. Yeah.] but, of course, most of the people back then, in Taiwan, are very upset about that. How did you feel? Were you upset? Not–well I do.

00:59:02.080 - 00:59:21.140

I do. I personally feel like Taiwan was betrayed by United States and given up by United States, but you know, you don't have any choice. Then you have to live on, life goes on.

00:59:21.700 - 00:59:36.690

So, I think I–I went through my college and everything and military service and pass the TOEFL everything and then came to United States. Yeah.

00:59:36.860 - 00:59:47.650

Did you? Did you remember there was any activity that the students were doing at the time or people just didn't do anything? Any demonstrations in those days? Or not a big [unintelligible]

00:59:47.650 - 01:00:04.970

Yeah, I think I remember this demonstration or protest against the United States when, even when I remember the United States government sent a representative to Taiwan to explain why we protest, or–I didn't participate in the protest because I was in school.

01:00:05.510 - 01:00:19.540

But yeah, it was-it was pretty upset by most of the people then. But–but you know, that-that just went on. I mean, and–

01:00:21.310 - 01:00:30.600

You still couldn't do it. You still couldn't do anything. Nothing you can you back then, I think– But still, you still can't do anything right now either.

01:00:30.600 - 01:00:45.540

[ET: Yeah.] Yes, yeah. So, how did you– how do you see this relationship between China and Taiwan? It was kind of tense back then.

01:00:46.570 - 01:01:05.430

And I remember when President Chiang(?), passed away I was in college. And of course, you know, through the news, you would know that most of the people got very sad and this and that, but I think when

01:01:06.480 - 01:01:25.750

he passed away, the relation was very tense. Military is prepare for–for war and everything, but it just–it just passed by. I don't think China

01:01:27.400 - 01:01:38.500

will–will–will attack Taiwan, back then. Until now, I don't think so personally. Yeah. Do you think China will attack Taiwan now?

01:01:38.500 - 01:01:52.020

I don't think so. Well, not the military. I don't think so. But that's politics. I shouldn't say too much. [SC: Yes] But myself, I do believe that the problem

01:01:54.270 - 01:02:01.460

will be resolved somehow. Somehow peacefully. Yeah, that's-that will be the best. [ET: Right. That will be the best.] Yeah.

01:02:02.420 - 01:02:17.480

Right. How would you describe your relationship with the Mr. Yao, the president of the Chinese opera club. You’ve known each other for a long time? Right? [ET: Which one? Pardon me?] Adam–Adam Yao?

01:02:19.180 - 01:02:28.190

Oh, Adam Yao, yeah. You’ve known each other for how many years? Oh, we know each other for almost 30 years [SC: Wow.]. As a good friend, as a good friend.

01:02:28.700 - 01:02:49.330

When I got into my–got into—when I joined the Chinese club, Chinese opera club, I know him, and then we work together on many projects, and try to-try to attract more people

01:02:49.440 - 01:03:04.850

into Chinese opera in the community. And then we–we went to some community–community organization to promote the Chinese opera together.

01:03:05.340 - 01:03:24.880

And I remember we even went to a medical center for all the Chinese students and then you know, for a seminar to tell them how attractive or how interesting Chinese opera is and then we went to Chinese food together, we present the

01:03:28.300 - 01:03:47.700

you know, videos and-and even Adam play the Jinghu on the spot, and then I sing and, you know, we tried so many, so many activity, we did so many activity together. And when the Chinese opera is very,

01:03:48.920 - 01:04:08.870

is not very well, like 10 years ago, or 15 years ago, like I said, you know, we-me and some other members went to Adam Yao’s house, we sing along together, and he play. Yeah, yeah, we're–we're good friends now.

01:04:09.840 - 01:04:24.080

Yeah. Yeah. It's a good working relationship too, in addition to be friends because you have a common goal [ET: Right. Right.] for more than Chinese opera [ET: Right]. Yeah. Can you tell me again about your role as a

01:04:24.180 - 01:04:33.710

Hualian Flo face(?)? Can you tell me again? Yeah, well, it's– What does Hualian symbolize in the Chinese–?

01:04:34.840 - 01:04:50.480

Hualian’s character role in Chinese opera episode, usually are the general or very loyal. Enemy traitor (?) to the Emperor.

01:04:51.240 - 01:05:11.830

And even the Emperor himself is all very positive roles in Chinese opera. He represents that very strong or manly character. So, even the voice is kind of like a baritone but

01:05:11.890 - 01:05:23.600

high pitch baritone to attract people to show the main goal of the role. Yeah. Does that describe well to your character?

01:05:23.640 - 01:05:39.100

Are you kind of righteous? That’s what I want to be. [SC laughs] When I watched those flower face roles on the stage that my father took me to, and I always–always admired their

01:05:40.010 - 01:05:54.370

personality and their role. That's why I choose Hualian to sing, to practice. And yeah, I like it very much. Hualian, however, that Hualian, when you prepare

01:05:55.930 - 01:06:14.010

the costume and the makeups and even the hat or helmets and whatever, takes a lot of time to do so. And you know you-we have to cover all our hairs and then to

01:06:14.050 - 01:06:30.500

extend our face to make it look bigger and then paint it from-we use a white cut cloth to cover all the hair first and you painted on the on the cloth to make your face look bigger. That's–that's what he needs to be.

01:06:31.620 - 01:06:48.020

By the role, that it's a very big face. Who taught you to-how to paint your face? Well, some of the elders in the Chinese opera club that helped me to do so. But later on, I learned everything you know, by

01:06:48.020 - 01:07:02.990

myself– By watching–from video. Video, YouTube. And now it's so–media is so convenient. And then you can get all the flower face pattern through

01:07:03.410 - 01:07:20.450

the-through the media, and then the color and you know the proportion of it, and how to make up your hats and helmets and how to dress up your robes–everything. So, not too many people can help you except yourself when

01:07:20.450 - 01:07:33.820

you–when you are getting ready to get on stage, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you've been with the Chinese opera club for 20 some years or 30 years?

01:07:34.330 - 01:07:45.100

I think at least 25 years. 25 years? And you have many performances and many rehearsal and practice together. Yeah, well not many, not many.

01:07:45.660 - 01:07:57.770

But if– If you do it once a year, that must be 25 times. Or a rehearsal. What I'm asking is–is there any event that is memorable that is

01:07:57.990 - 01:08:08.210

scary or crazy? Or it is something that was memorable? Like you remember, like somebody forgot their line or somebody forgot their–a costume or something?

01:08:08.210 - 01:08:20.920

Do you–was there anything like that that happened? Yeah, well, but um I remember the first time I got on the stage to perform with makeups and dressed up everything.

01:08:21.580 - 01:08:41.260

I was kind of nervous because that was only like, three or–three or four years when I started learning how to sing. And I sing a part that will last about 15 minutes long. And it's quite [SC: That's long.

01:08:41.260 - 01:08:59.880

That’s long.] You have to remember all the–all the–all the–how to sing, first, and then you know Chinese opera when you sing it's like by–by the–by the—you're telling a story. So, it's not like singing a song, you repeat the sounds, but you

01:08:59.880 - 01:09:15.280

have to remember all that. And I didn't. My skill back then to sing a flower face is not so well. And years later when I listened to the first time I sang it was kind of–very, very amateur.

01:09:15.940 - 01:09:32.790

And you know I even laugh at myself. But anyway, you–you improve after you listen to what you're singing, you know, throughout the years, you try to improve yourself. But I was kind of nervous on the stage.

01:09:33.010 - 01:09:50.990

And then of course you know, seeing Chinese opera especially flower face that you have to make up all the makeup, a colorful painting is oil based. So, it's pretty pretty sticky.

01:09:51.340 - 01:10:07.910

And then the body temperature sometimes will melt it. So, you have to be very careful and make a very thick makeup to avoid melting pot and then with the helmets and everything and you wrap up your head.

01:10:08.730 - 01:10:28.940

And the robe, inside the robe you have to wear another vest which is made by cotton, very thick. The reason for that is that flower face, the robe must look very manly, very strong.

01:10:29.590 - 01:10:44.940

So, when you wear the robe, you will raise up your shoulders and make your body more thicker. But that was made by cotton. Very thick. It’s about three quarters of an inch thick, cotton

01:10:45.230 - 01:11:02.840

vest and then you wear it, and then you wear another long pants, and then you put up–you put your robe on up. Under the–under the stage lighting it is very hot,

01:11:03.780 - 01:11:16.130

very very hot. So, every time you perform on the stage, when you get off the stage, all of my underwear got so wet inside. Even the cotton wet.

01:11:16.990 - 01:11:30.210

It will be–you will be–it will be wet as well. So, it's very tough. It's very tough, especially the lighting on the stage is very powerful. And very hot [SC: Yeah.] when–when the lighting focus on you.

01:11:30.830 - 01:11:41.910

So, it’s pretty tough [SC: Yeah.] but I still do it. Yeah. [Laughs] Yeah, yes. Wow. Yes, that's–that's something you’ll always

01:11:42.330 - 01:11:55.060

remember. [ET: Right. Right.] On the stage, the tension– Honestly, honestly, seeing Chinese opera nowadays is pretty, pretty tough, pretty hard working.

01:11:56.370 - 01:12:12.300

And, you know, imagine though, ancient time or the, you know, when they sing without air conditioning, without, you know, it's–it's a–it's a tough job. Yeah. I imagine.

01:12:12.300 - 01:12:31.250

I couldn't imagine that. Yeah, it's a tough life. Do you have any advice for people who are interested in bringing the cultural–bring the bridge between the two cultures? You mean, the culture China-of China and United States of America?

01:12:31.330 - 01:12:46.600

[SC: Yeah. Anybody I guess.] Any culture? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we try our best. And then I remember, there's an international festival, annually in downtown, in front of City Hall, or in the

01:12:47.790 - 01:13:01.480

yeah, in the park in downtown. That Chinese opera club, joined that festival many years. And we have to perform on stage they give you–they assign you a very small stage.

01:13:01.920 - 01:13:18.700

And then, you know, all kinds of people come in and then take picture with us. And, you know, while we had a costume on. I–we sure hope that we can introduce at least the Chinese culture, particularly the Chinese opera,

01:13:19.620 - 01:13:37.250

into the culture–into the American society or culture, community. So, that's what we're hoping for. If a young person comes to you, wants to join the Chinese opera club now, do you have any advice for this young person?

01:13:40.120 - 01:13:52.490

What's the best way to do it? Do you have any advice for the [unintelligible]— Well, we do have young people join us, like I said that we do have even kids singing Chinese opera in our club.

01:13:52.900 - 01:14:13.570

[SC: Right now?] Before the pandemic, of course, we do have American, young, young men, not girls, but young men, American, white, and sing Chinese opera in our club a few years ago, but you know, they come and

01:14:13.570 - 01:14:28.120

go, come and go, but we always welcome them and then try to give them some advice, how to sing. Okay, advising, singing. Yeah. Or encourage them to never give up and just keep on

01:14:28.120 - 01:14:42.190

learning from video and this and that, and just welcomed them and then encouraged them. That's all we can do. Yeah. But I think, you know, past three or four years, we don't have so many

01:14:43.310 - 01:14:56.580

activity. And we don't have performances. We don't have any new singing, concert, but we are planning to do so this year. I hope so. I hope so.

01:14:56.880 - 01:15:12.300

That would be fantastic. Earlier, you were telling me the story about how Mr. Yao picked up some costumes from some club. I cannot remember the details.

01:15:12.300 - 01:15:26.320

Can you repeat that again? Well, yeah, the detail is like this. In the Chinese community, there was another Chinese opera club or organization.

01:15:27.190 - 01:15:38.350

That was– Does it belong to Taiwan or China? No, not really, not really belongs to but you know, there are many older generation Chinese opera group.

01:15:39.080 - 01:15:57.630

They organize a club in the Chinese Culture Center, which is sponsored by the Congress government. Those are the senior citizen in the Chinese Cultural

01:15:58.020 - 01:16:18.650

Center, that when they found the club, there's a lot-a lot of costume or makeup that donated from some Chinese opera school in Taiwan, through the governmental help to their organization, and through all

01:16:18.650 - 01:16:33.790

the years they keep on accumulating. Of course, they buy some costume by themselves as well. So, they keep on accumulating a lot of costume or makeup in store, in Chinese culture center.

01:16:35.720 - 01:16:47.990

That’s not the Chinese Culture Center that I helped to design years ago. That's another organization sponsored by government. But they store in their warehouse.

01:16:48.610 - 01:17:09.240

However, all those elderly passed away, like 10 years ago, there's no performance or singing. In other words, that club does not exist anymore. And the–throughout the years, me and Adam and Nancy,

01:17:09.990 - 01:17:28.750

another club member, we know the people in Chinese Culture Center, and we keep on work with them, hoping that we can get the costume and all their inventories. Because if you set it in the storage,

01:17:30.110 - 01:17:46.160

it's going to be damaged throughout the years, of course. So, that's through the negotiation, and everything. And Adam offered them–them a price to buy them out. And that's–that start another

01:17:46.570 - 01:18:03.520

negotiation, of course, that's their asset. They don't want to give it free, hoping to raise some funds for their organization. That organization is called Chinese Senior Club, or organization, or society.

01:18:04.210 - 01:18:21.220

And then through the president of that society, that we know personally, that through negotiations, and Adam finally pay some money. I don't remember how much but it's more than $20,000, personally.

01:18:21.220 - 01:18:36.170

That's amazing. That’s amazing. To acquire the whole set is it's like more than 10 or 15 boxes of costume, everything. And then, now belongs to Adam.

01:18:36.980 - 01:18:49.340

And he donated to Chinese opera club and our future performances. [SC: Yeah.] Yeah. That's a lot– amazing. devotion. Devotion to-to this club.

01:18:49.850 - 01:19:01.630

Right. Yeah, He's–yeah. He's crazy about Chinese opera. Yeah, he can do anything to promote it. Yes, yes.

01:19:01.740 - 01:19:13.940

And thanks to people like you and Adam, that is so devoted to it, it can keep going otherwise, you know, it's not easy to-to, it's not sustainable. Even in Taiwan or China.

01:19:14.110 - 01:19:27.290

It's not sustainable without any help. [ET: It’s diminishing.] Yeah, yeah. So, it's-it's needed crazy people like you to do it. Like we always discussed, the future of Chinese opera.

01:19:29.400 - 01:19:46.440

We feel that the future is not good. However, Chinese opera will be a very special type of artistic activity, and it will be preserved through some crazy people like us.

01:19:47.580 - 01:20:00.060

And even though not too many people like it, but it will be always preserved. And then keep on–keep on passing to the gen–next generation. Yeah, hopefully. Yes. Yes.

01:20:00.590 - 01:20:13.420

That sounds like a happy ending. Or promising–a promising future. Well, we hope at least. Yeah. Do you have anything else you'd like to add?

01:20:15.040 - 01:20:34.420

Not really, but I would just like to—we would just like to hope that there will be more people, especially youngsters, that will join us and then like, or interesting into Chinese opera.

01:20:35.250 - 01:20:50.960

And it's very fun. My advice to the newcomer, or my friend, is that you think Chinese opera is very hard to learn, however it's not.

01:20:51.950 - 01:21:11.720

And the second thing is that the episode is very interesting. And then once you learn it, once you watch it, you will like it. And once you learn how to sing, and learn the history of Chinese opera, I always kept with my friend.

01:21:12.230 - 01:21:28.950

You, you will be addicted. [SC: Addicted to it.] You will never get away from it once you learn it. But if you don't learn it, of course, it will pass by, you know, but that's-that's what we're hoping for.

01:21:29.720 - 01:21:41.070

Right? Yeah. Okay, well, to be continued. Might still come back to interview you more, but thank you so much for your time. Yeah.

01:21:41.640 - 01:21:55.580

So, yeah, that's–that's–that's good for now. And we will be in touch. Okay. [video cuts out] —if you’d like. Yeah, yeah. So, although you are in United States, you are part of this

01:21:56.120 - 01:22:14.260

big community, but because of the existence of a Chinese opera club, making you feel like this is something that you feel really home, like this is, like, part of your home, you have a community, and then you're still making music together, you feel really, like, this

01:22:14.260 - 01:22:21.760

is [ET: Yes, well, I do have that feeling.] where you belong. Did you [ET: I do have that feeling.] feel that? It’s—yeah, this is where you belong. If you–if you–if you time your life, or you’re…your

01:22:24.530 - 01:22:35.200

time in United States without this, can you imagine? Something–something's lacking? Right? Well, even with all the club, at home, I still listen to it.

01:22:35.910 - 01:22:50.350

Right? But what— Right? But what I'm saying is–I understand–but–but that's because after you join the Chinese opera club, you became interested, but before Chinese opera club, if you were only you know, like, most people, they go to work and come

01:22:50.350 - 01:23:03.400

back to work, come back home and their–their time is always with Americans. And you know, it's a very different kind of sense. True. However, like I said, last time, that we

01:23:05.000 - 01:23:23.230

were very much Americanized or influenced by American culture. [SC: Sure.] before I come to United States, I still have other interests. I sing pop songs, folk songs, I watched the singing, I always watched

01:23:23.230 - 01:23:42.990

America’s Got Talent and the yeah, [SC: Sure.] but Chinese opera is very special to me–very special to me. When I-when I got very busy, sometimes I listen, when I’m working. When I’m working or when I was working.

01:23:43.370 - 01:24:01.240

When I listen to Chinese opera, different role, not–not only flower face, lau sin(?), meaning the older people. And Ching Yi, the young lady singing. And lau tao, the older lady singing, you know, I listen to different kinds of

01:24:01.360 - 01:24:12.700

episodes. That makes me feel more calm. And comfortable. Right, but this is a culture, right? This is very deep culture, very different from the pop songs or

01:24:12.700 - 01:24:22.490

something. You know, that's why the young people even in Taiwan, they like [unintelligible] This is more cultural related. Right. You really learn something,

01:24:22.760 - 01:24:33.950

At least from my background. So, I like it anyway, period. So, yeah, that's it. Okay. All right. Great. Okay.

01:24:33.950 - 01:24:40.990

Thank you again for your time. [ET: Okay. No problem.] Okay. And until next time. Okay. All right, anytime.

01:24:42.170 - 01:24:48.350

As long as we're not busy. So, yeah, thank you. Okay. Thank you. All right. Bye. Bye. Have a nice day.

01:24:48.430 - 01:24:48.710

Bye bye.