00:00:00.970 - 00:00:28.229

Testing testing. This is Poly Moore. Today is June 17th, 1969. This is interview number 32. Uh Doctor Norbeck, uh at his office, the time is uh 10 a.m. at the sound of the word now, set the dial to zero. No, so I can adjust the dials

00:00:28.239 - 00:00:51.799

accordingly just in your normal conversation. My name is Edward Norvik. I'm Professor of Anthropology at Rice University and Chairman of the Department of Anthropology and Sociology. He then, uh yes, I think that'll be um fine Doctor Norbeck. Um We were just talking in the way of

00:00:51.810 - 00:01:08.870

uh warming up here about some of the things we're interested in uh, in obtaining from you in this interview. Um I would be very interested, for instance, in, in your recollections any way you want to present them either in a chronological order or uh starting with

00:01:08.879 - 00:01:26.919

perhaps the, uh the time that you first heard that the board had selected a president, uh perhaps uh some ideas that you have about the office of the president. What kind of qualities a man in that position should have, uh perhaps uh your, um your goals

00:01:26.930 - 00:01:42.400

and aspirations for rise as a university, all of these things I think are pertinent to this particular project. And uh as I say, I'm totally interested in, in your insights uh to start with your uh ideas of the office of presidency, for instance. Um How do

00:01:42.410 - 00:02:06.230

you view that office in a university of this size when I would put the presidency and the, and the administration in general in the same category. And my view of the ideal administration is one that removes from uh faculty and students. Uh a lot of uh

00:02:06.239 - 00:02:30.050

irksome tasks of administration and at the same time provides uh uh some guidance. But in my view, the the heart of the university is not the administration and is the students and faculty. I think we have a lot of the illusions in the United States about

00:02:30.059 - 00:02:53.020

the importance of the individuals. I don't think the president of the university um makes that much difference. That is a president who is very uh competent, makes a great deal of difference. One who is very incompetent, makes a great deal of difference. But in between, this

00:02:53.029 - 00:03:14.720

is just a huge range of tolerance. This must be quite clear from the, the history of our uh I almost noted uh universities that are ancient Harvard University, for example. And it's impossible to think that in uh these several centuries and it's almost similar that Harvard

00:03:14.729 - 00:03:35.550

University could have had ex and plan presidents one after another has had some of the worst on record. Uh and also has had splendid ones. It has gotten along just fine. There have been honored uh uh checkmates, of course, in the administration beyond the president. As

00:03:35.559 - 00:03:56.399

a matter of fact, I think I got slightly infamous or famous here on the campus. But at the time of the incident over Doctor Masterson by saying that in public, something like this, that uh uh in many instances, the president of the university could have been

00:03:56.410 - 00:04:21.010

a Holstein K and the place would have gone along satisfactorily. What is more you see, I think one can uh one can quite uh effectively document on this by taking uh universities, the histories of universities such as Harvard Yale and so on. And their president is

00:04:21.019 - 00:04:47.640

very much more involved than uh than the individual. Uh But uh I think this is a strong American idea along with the idea that we get better leaders uh uh if they're uh uh popular figure. So um that we uh get better leaders by electing them

00:04:47.649 - 00:05:12.339

uh uh to office. I'm sure in the long run uh uh that doesn't matter what we do have. Of course, is there are mechanisms that allow us to uh get rid and the uh the ineffective ones and the bad ones and so on. Uh an aspirin

00:05:12.769 - 00:05:38.100

and the uh uh rumble Masterson, I first heard of it while having lunch at the faculty club and I, a faculty member, I came by and spent the gossip. This was before in the notice and my own response was surprise. And, uh, and then as I

00:05:38.109 - 00:06:00.500

recall, I said that I could live with it. Now, I happen to know William Masterson very well. And, uh, we are good friends and I'm sure we will continue, uh, uh to be. And for some years here, my name is Dean and a professor and I

00:06:00.510 - 00:06:29.209

later served as dean myself for 18 months. Oh, I was surprised at the choice of Masterson. I think he's not the person I would have chosen for this university. However, and perfectly happy to go along. I think it is impossible to make judgments beforehand. Certain ones

00:06:29.220 - 00:06:48.010

on whether he or anyone else is going to be a good president or uh uh or any bad uh president. And the one thing I did know about him was that he's absolutely one thing I knew that was positive that he's dedicated in this place. Uh

00:06:48.299 - 00:07:12.369

I loved it dearly. It was exceedingly important uh to him and he was uh uh delighted at the prospect of coming here. Now, when I heard I telephoned him the night before he came down here and there had already been rumblings and uh uh whatnot and

00:07:12.380 - 00:07:29.279

he had heard of it. Uh Did you happen to attend the faculty meeting that occurred at four o'clock? Uh This must have been on Friday. There was a faculty meeting at four in which there was a vote taken on the two parts of the region. OK.

00:07:31.019 - 00:07:49.010

You talked to him before or after this meeting, I talked to him the night before and he was in very good spirits. He heard about uh possible tremor coming and I got the clearest impression from him that he understood that the appointment had previously uh being

00:07:49.019 - 00:08:13.619

cleared with the uh uh faculty and the students that the Board of Governors or the representative of the Board of Governors that uh um led him to believe that this was the case and that is an impression, but it also comes from various other sources and

00:08:13.630 - 00:08:31.510

there's nothing I know about. Certainly at all did. Uh uh let's see. I'm still a little unclear about one thing. Uh The uh family meeting was at uh four o'clock on Friday and he arrived in Houston around 1030 on Saturday and held his press conference at

00:08:31.519 - 00:08:45.169

noon that day. Uh Did you talk to him Thursday night or was it Friday night? So you talked to him before the faculty meeting? Were you aware at that time that the board had not? I mean that, that the faculty advisory committee, uh uh believe that

00:08:45.179 - 00:09:04.210

they had not been consulted? Yes. Did you happen to mention that to Doctor Masterson? No, I see. No, he knew I remember or seemed to know this and that there were possible use of uh uh t but he was in the best of spirits and uh

00:09:04.539 - 00:09:25.429

nothing thing. And he has another uh endearing trade that is that he is able to laugh at himself and uh uh he doesn't do so. Uh I think it pres grace how I consider it uh for his own welfare considering what happened at her on. Uh

00:09:27.669 - 00:09:53.200

Then I don't know if it's possible to put continuity in it. I did of course, attend the bank on the meeting and was surprised at the show of a feeling at the uh at the meeting and gossip of all kinds follow out about the possibilities of

00:09:53.210 - 00:10:20.510

strike uh on the campus and uh and the involvement of students and so on in opposition. Now, two things seem to be uh uh a parent at the faculty meeting and later on uh uh throughout the home business. And one was an objection to the procedures

00:10:21.380 - 00:10:45.130

that is the board's action and not consulting the committee and so on. And I think um almost everyone including myself, uh this was uh uh improper uh procedure and what's more seemed most surprising to me. I did not understand how a Board of Governors could live

00:10:45.140 - 00:11:10.489

in such a vacuum. They must read newspapers to know that this kind of action couldn't fail to bring a negative response being a particular representative of the Board of Governors who appeared at the faculty meeting. Mr Allen uh did not uh present in good faith, I

00:11:10.500 - 00:11:39.049

think for the Board of governors, uh, uh, for a number of reasons. Uh, one of which really doesn't have much to do, have anything to do with his own actions is just simply his own personal appearance. And I picked this up from two or three, young

00:11:39.059 - 00:11:59.080

faculty members who did not hear me, uh, eavesdropping. I wasn't eavesdropping intentionally and, uh, there were remarks there that he looked like a fat and bloated capitalist. Well, how much this, uh, effect this may have had. I don't know, I, I would put it down for

00:11:59.090 - 00:12:22.380

myself as, uh, as trivial. He did not, uh, uh, gave a good account of himself as a representative of the board. It seemed to me in the board's position, it was perfectly comprehensible. They were out in the, uh, touch with modern circumstances in the nation among

00:12:22.390 - 00:12:45.690

students and so forth. And that was one of the things, the procedures and the second thing and in various places and times it became the dominant thing with a questioning of the qualifications of the appointee, uh, master. And the first was not a disturbing issue. Uh,

00:12:45.700 - 00:13:12.609

to me it seemed appropriate and the second attempt I think was, uh, handled by various and by faculty members and students in a shameful way. Mhm. There is the old cliche of character assassination and that is certainly what I heard. Uh, we had the generalized objection

00:13:12.619 - 00:13:35.020

then on the one hand to procedures, some question in many minds about the I mean, qualifications of masters and we had something else and that was uh uh some very outspoken uh attacks upon him and action against him. And some of that was done by faculty

00:13:35.030 - 00:13:57.119

members, uh who had a vested interest in uh uh a few of the cases. I happen to know uh details and so forth. Well, I could put it this way, some of the faculty members who were most vociferous in objecting to uh uh Masterson should have

00:13:57.130 - 00:14:25.679

been asked in public this question. Uh Does Masterson's opinion on of you have any bearing on your stand? They were not uh so far as I know, I think to me, the prominently, the most unpleasant event of all was the Jon meeting at uh um a

00:14:25.690 - 00:14:50.140

Hanson College which I attended as a non-resident associate. And there were meetings in each of the residential colleges that night. I believe the one at Hanson was, was probably the most passionate. Uh the boys then said it was the first time in history. They never had

00:14:50.150 - 00:15:18.169

such a large collection. There were 400 people and they said uh present uh including most of the uh uh associates. But I heard there and as relatively little referenced in uh improper actions of the board, but instead very much about the improper character of Masterson and

00:15:18.179 - 00:15:44.849

which reached a climax with the student president of Hansom College saying just about these words, these are the words, as I recall them now. But uh as a result of participating in confrontations, student confrontations with Masterson that he knew about Masterson's character and he wasn't going

00:15:44.859 - 00:16:01.159

to say anything more about it just, uh then uh intimating that he was a nice person and that was the reason for not talking. But if anyone wanted to know what he meant and didn't know what he meant from his words, he would talk with him

00:16:01.169 - 00:16:30.719

later. Uh It certainly wasn't uh branding of uh Masterson on the most tenuous or of experience and evidence as some sort of uh uh moral leper and unfit for. Oh, all of us. I, I was the only one present there who had a good word to

00:16:30.729 - 00:16:50.989

say for Masterson, which did, does not mean that I got up and promoted him for the presidency. As a matter of fact, what I was trying to do was to avoid any kind of uh strike or violent action. And uh I was advocating that whatever was

00:16:51.000 - 00:17:13.170

done uh with regard to Masterson and it done be done by uh peaceable means that such means were available and that violence would uh uh get us uh uh nowhere, uh get us uh backward. As a matter of fact, earlier that day, um Frank Vandever and

00:17:13.180 - 00:17:32.920

I both had spent some time on the campus trying to investigate rumors of uh uh strike. And uh he and I both wandered around the campus trying to find a place where there was then to be a meeting of, um, young members and students to organize

00:17:32.930 - 00:17:50.829

a strike. We never found, uh, a, such a group or a place. Although I believe some sort of meetings were held on the, uh, on the issue. Were you aware of the meeting of the SBS around three o'clock that afternoon? Was it one of the things

00:17:50.839 - 00:18:11.689

you knew about? I, I've heard that yes, but this, this wasn't what you had in mind. Well, there were so many rumors and everything was so unclear, uh, that you couldn't be sure of, uh, uh, couldn't be sure of anything. Did you have the idea that

00:18:11.699 - 00:18:28.569

the student leader might be involved or do you think this might be an outside organization? I mean, an outside organization, but a separate organization from the, uh, the student leadership such as the college presidents and the s A presidents, not the slim, not the slim, no,

00:18:29.420 - 00:18:58.819

seem to be on an internal affair. And, uh, what I dislike most about it is this, that it seemed to me, uh, clearly to be led by a faculty and most strongly by faculty members that had, uh, personal dislikes for Masterson. I would be interested in

00:18:58.829 - 00:19:17.349

your, uh, recalling some of the atrocity stories against Mastern going around that time and hearing your reputation of these. Do you recall any that stand out in your mind as being particularly vicious? Well, there were simply statements that he was a tone de for, um, uh,

00:19:18.760 - 00:19:40.260

the Board of Governors and that he would do anything the Board of Governors wanted, uh, done which of course painted the Board of Governors as a collection of, uh, uh, monsters which must be utter stupidity. Their motives for becoming members of the board of Governor, I

00:19:40.270 - 00:20:03.160

suppose are various but they aren't people giving service and they regard themselves as such and, uh, I am sure they were shocked and offended and probably learned a good bit. Any one of them should have known that with the kinds of questioning of structures, institutions that

00:20:03.170 - 00:20:24.150

we have in the nation now and the fining upon universities, the next step coming would be to question uh the institution, the organization of Board of Governors to ask such questions as this. And they should well be asked, are you qualified to serve as a member

00:20:24.160 - 00:20:48.780

of the Board of Governors? And there's something interesting there that uh uh I think it has many, many implications in this whole rubble. The whole business was beginning to end. I got no messages from anyone on the revolution learning of the kind. There was no questioning

00:20:48.790 - 00:21:12.859

of the institution of presidency in the university. Uh uh was the faintest kind of questioning of the institution of Board of Governors. Very faint indeed. There was questioning of procedures and incumbents but not of the uh social art as you might put it uh as it

00:21:12.869 - 00:21:37.790

stands, that was acceptable. Uh are you referring to the military uh uh industrial establishment? When you refer to questioning of the social orders and the implication of the university structure. Uh They did not question the institution of presidency at all, only the qualifications of the incumbent.

00:21:38.349 - 00:21:59.560

And there was a good bin of pious mouthing too uh by uh people who are the most strongly opposed to Masterson saying, saying that we are not talking about the character of Masterson. We are talking about the procedures, the actions of the barn of governors. And

00:21:59.569 - 00:22:24.790

then this will shift over at once to uh um uh he invidious talk about uh ma something over and over again. Uh This happened and I think for uh a number of people and the important issue was simply Masters some uh not in uh procedures, but

00:22:24.800 - 00:22:55.540

this was not admitted by anyone. What in your knowledge and experience with Doctor Masterson. Uh uh can uh can you tell me that uh would repute the idea that he is a toady for the Board of Governors or for the Board of Trustees? Well, I had

00:22:55.550 - 00:23:15.170

splendid relations with him as a chairman of the department when he was dean here, I found him wrong, was reasonable. There are some things about him, I think some people didn't understand and one is that he expected a normal courtesy or etiquette if he didn't get

00:23:15.180 - 00:23:32.829

it from people. And uh there are some who don't understand it. Uh And he could put his bank up and he was likely to be, uh, uh, somewhat hostile. Uh, I not had troubles of that kind myself. We got along splendidly. I always found him, uh,

00:23:33.260 - 00:23:56.300

reasonable. I think there is no question that he was autocratic, uh, authoritarian. I recall as a matter of fact saying at the time he, uh, left here to become president of the University of Chattanooga, perhaps to him since he could tolerate anything that I would say

00:23:56.310 - 00:24:18.449

to him that, uh, well, I think this is a wonderful job for him on the arm for you. And that as the years pass, you can go on and become more and more autocratic. But this goes with the office. And I also had much close acquaintance

00:24:18.459 - 00:24:45.319

with pizza, uh, who in all of this rumble somehow, uh, and became, uh, uh, much more angelic than he'd ever been before. And in my opinion, uh, Masterson was not a patch on pitzer and authoritarianism. Uh, they, they carried out their work and so on in

00:24:45.329 - 00:25:13.849

different different ways. Now, there were some talk among the boys over at Hanson College where Masterson had been master for a number of years, uh, about him that was, uh, unflattering. And, uh, at the time he, uh, left, I recall there were a number of, uh,

00:25:14.349 - 00:25:33.260

of festivities in his honor and I believe the Board of Governors was surprised of all of these things. There was ample reason for them to think that he was extremely well and regarded here. His own college honored him. There was a painting of him there. And

00:25:33.459 - 00:25:52.670

the boys told me that painting was the work of a couple of the uh students of the time who were uh uh special friends of Masterson and did not represent the sentiments of the college that the college people did not like him. They did not like

00:25:52.680 - 00:26:15.250

the uh uh students in the last year who were the officers of the uh uh college. But please note that these were all elected by the students themselves, that these students were toadies of Masterson. And one of them was uh um Malcolm. I believe his first

00:26:15.260 - 00:26:36.160

name is not the same as uh his father who was the uh the chair and the Board of Governors. Uh Now how much truth there was in this, I simply don't know other reports were that Masterson and the in the uh uh the last few years

00:26:36.170 - 00:26:56.069

as master of his college, as a matter of fact, did not interfere very much. He left most of it to the elected officers and the students themselves. And I think you'll find devalued opinion among the students. Some of them were extremely fond of it. And I

00:26:56.079 - 00:27:15.750

do know that his appointment to the presidency of the University of Chattanooga came through students of his former times. Uh more than one who remembers that the Board of Governors of the University of Chattanooga, which has an enormous, uh, board, I believe there are over 40

00:27:15.760 - 00:27:39.189

persons on the board of trustees. I think it is called and it was their action and they had, had, of course, uh, contact with him as, uh, uh, students. Uh, the, the main complaint really was the, uh, authoritarianism and the possibility that he'd be a pawn

00:27:39.199 - 00:28:05.920

from the Board of Governors. And, uh, it made it sound as if the Board of Governors were some, uh, uh, organization like an iceberg and there's seven eights underground and that 7/8 all reprehensible behavior, uh, which of course, must be utterly, uh, utterly, uh, false. They

00:28:05.930 - 00:28:29.589

are, uh, busy men and, uh, women and giving c, I mean, they, they're well like to have their own ways and so forth. But as laws of, uh, governors go, I imagine it's been one of the, uh, more reasonable of the, uh, history of colleges and

00:28:29.599 - 00:28:52.640

universities of the nation. Do you recall any specific incidents, uh, that, uh, would indicate a strong independence of mind, uh, in, uh, Doctor Masterson's career that, uh, you could put on record for me. No, I don't think so. I think he was quite conventional. It was

00:28:52.650 - 00:29:12.079

quite conventional and he would certainly have paid very strong attention to, to close attention to wishes and so on. Of the Board of Governors. And the slightest doubt of that if you think about his own history, he was poor and he was from this area and

00:29:12.089 - 00:29:38.439

he also had relatives here who were not poor and he was, uh, uh, compulsively upwardly mobile uh as uh presidents of universities are and other people who take positions of the kind. And I would repeat that in those traits, the upward mobility and authoritarianism, at least.

00:29:38.810 - 00:30:09.819

Uh, he was a mild as comparing with Fitzer. No. Uh, pit sir. Uh, I remember, I think unquestionably would have opposed the Board of Governors more firmly than Masterson when opinions uh there, it, when opinions did not agree, would this come up very often uh in

00:30:09.829 - 00:30:30.150

the presidency or, or do you think that uh that the Board of Governors, the board of trustees remain, remain somewhat noninterventionist in their uh approach to the uh the academic side of the university. And there are some big issues in which the Board of Governors well

00:30:31.750 - 00:31:00.680

make an enormous difference. One here and I heard that there was an issue which uh Pitzer was uh disturbed and there was a gossip that it was involved in his leaving was a plan to uh establish a school of business administration or something like that. And

00:31:00.689 - 00:31:28.500

the Board of Governors disapproved uh on that, I think principally according to the reports on the question of money, lack of the funds, but he felt strongly that this was uh uh was desirable. They're, they're vital to private universities, of course, in providing uh money and

00:31:28.510 - 00:31:50.089

so forth. I don't know how one goes about getting an ideal Board of Governors. As a matter of fact, all of the university life has become very different from what I thought I was contracting for. At the time I became a professor. Uh my ideal is

00:31:50.099 - 00:32:07.160

still to have the administration and the Board of Governors take care of a vast number of tasks that allows me to uh uh to be an anthropologist. This has not been the, the course of life for me for quite a lot of years, I wound up

00:32:07.170 - 00:32:35.030

again and again, with administrative tasks including the, the uh uh planning, drafting of applications to outside agencies for uh uh money for the university includes Ford Foundation, the National Science Foundation and the Advanced Research Project agency and so forth. And these are not the things that

00:32:35.040 - 00:32:54.189

I have wanted to do uh as a university professor. As a matter of fact, I uh myself repeated an echo and of that comes from many other people or a cry. And that is when are we allowed to become professors? What we have had? I think

00:32:54.199 - 00:33:19.060

over a period of quite a few years is a tendency to put uh more and more on the burden of administration, on faculty members and even on students. And this is desirable uh from one viewpoint that is uh the wishes, wants and so forth, uh the

00:33:19.069 - 00:33:38.989

interests of uh uh the students and the faculty uh then can be put to the front, but there is another evil. And that is if we go on to the extreme and that is that what we built is the new standard of administrators. Uh And we

00:33:39.000 - 00:34:03.040

have some man attempts of the extremism of that kind right now on our, our campuses, you know, with, with uh uh uh totalitarian organizations, uh a slightly modified Ku Klux Klans, like the uh SDS with tainted, uh so called Democratic aims, but wholly uh totalitarian uh

00:34:03.050 - 00:34:27.580

uh uh means of trying to reach those aims. And we're, we're troubled in quite a lot of ways a private universities such as this has been dependent in the past upon private funds, more and more we are dependent upon the governmental uh support. And it is

00:34:27.590 - 00:34:50.409

an issue of importance right now at this university just a very short time ago and bloom fell with uh uh a curtailment of funds from the National Science Foundation. I don't think the problem has been solved yet. It was too recent funds that were expected did

00:34:50.419 - 00:35:08.689

not come through. Is this associated with a 10% budget uh decrease uh that the board announced that uh uh got an unfavorable reaction on the campus from certain students and a certain faculty or is this another problem? Oh, and there was, at the time the benefits

00:35:08.699 - 00:35:34.310

were approved this year and before they were approved, we had uh a number of notices from the administration that funds were tight. And uh that the main reason for the tightness of funds was a reaction on the part of uh uh alumni uh who would ordinarily

00:35:34.320 - 00:35:57.570

give uh uh sums of money that were counted on for the budget uh but would not this year uh in uh a reaction against the, the uprisings on the uh uh campus. Well, when the budget, when our departmental budget take one example was approved, uh and

00:35:57.580 - 00:36:21.750

there were essentially no changes in the recommendations uh on uh increases in salary and there was a cut in uh expenses from the department. In fact, it was cut uh too much. The amount was still not large. I complained in writing uh expressing my concern since

00:36:21.760 - 00:36:40.689

we had wound up with a a sem that was uh only about 60 slightly over 60% of the actual amount we had spent two years ago. In the meantime, the Department of Students had increased quite greatly and our institution was made at once. So I simply

00:36:40.699 - 00:37:09.570

don't know what the financial state is. Anything with fear of uh uh reduction from these private sources. There was at the time a much less fear of uh reduction of funds from outside governmental agencies. Well, in the meantime, too, have stopped funds uh give notification. There

00:37:09.580 - 00:37:38.550

would be no continuation. One is uh Harpa Advanced Research Project Agency and the other is National Science Foundation and uh and the size the bone uh grants and programs. So I would say there would be continuing concern there. And there is a national tendency you see

00:37:38.560 - 00:38:02.659

to switch over to uh a state support. The University of which Masterson was president has become a branch of the state system and he is now uh uh chancellor. And this has happened over and over again. Uh two years ago, a dean of the University of

00:38:02.669 - 00:38:23.080

Pittsburgh uh asked me how long I thought Rice University would hold out before it became a state affiliated or state supported the institution. And I told him, I thought it would be one of the longest holdouts in the nation if it ever came about. And he

00:38:23.090 - 00:38:46.370

said his estimate was three years. Well, I don't know, we have this trend of change and many other trends of uh change, some of which are simply not change at all, but what has been called the anti conformity. And this applies to some of our most

00:38:46.379 - 00:39:10.500

radical students and a few faculty members, they are conformist in fact. And what they are doing is not setting out in new directions at all, but simply doing, failing to do uh the expected are doing precisely the opposite, not doing what is expected but not starting

00:39:10.510 - 00:39:30.969

out in new directions. In short, there, there are psychological feelings here of uh dissatisfaction, but they're still expressed in a conformist uh style. And, and this applies, I think to a great deal of the SDS. There are no new directions. There are inno informations there, they're

00:39:30.979 - 00:39:48.840

just objections to everything that is done. You do the opposite. And I don't know what all happens as an ans as I can think of a great many factors that lead to students and faculty uh unrest and sentiments among some of the young faculty members uh

00:39:48.850 - 00:40:12.120

seem indistinguishable from that of uh uh dissident students. Uh in many cases, it's hard to tell them apart. And after all, they are not so much different in uh i in age. Uh and the disturbance has gone through our universities, I think in many and central

00:40:12.129 - 00:40:38.739

ways that uh uh we're not uh cognizant of yet. For one thing in the month of April, I had talks with the editors of three of our largest publishing firms to publish uh books, uh scholarly and scientific books. And they each told me that they had

00:40:38.750 - 00:41:03.379

set new highs uh in the number of contracts signed for books accompanied by exceptionally new highs in the number of books that didn't, manuscripts that didn't meet deadlines. Uh The, the disturbance is a fact of this production of work and they're affected in quite a number

00:41:03.389 - 00:41:21.679

of ways. I think one of them is incentive. Mhm uh The incentive to go ahead and do this with the feeling of unrest about and so on. You get to wondering if it's worthwhile. I'm having problems in the same kind myself. I have many commitments for

00:41:21.889 - 00:41:49.110

uh writing research for the first time in my life, I'm behind, I've never been behind. I've known, known this whole compulsive on the deadlines. But, uh I'm presently, uh, behind. I think this in a way the, uh, disturbances on the campus, uh, go far, far beyond

00:41:49.120 - 00:42:11.750

what you can see with student revolt and so on. Uh, there's, there is unrest and disturbance of many kinds and, you know, I work mostly on Japan and this, uh just as a matter of incidental interest here saying that uh uh student unrest and university problems

00:42:12.169 - 00:42:37.850

are fantastically more intense there, there is no college or university in spam that is not troubled. At the present time in November of 1968 58 out of 300 some in the nation were on hold on a partial strike moving and the Japanese seem in particular as

00:42:37.860 - 00:43:02.110

far as the students go to being the anti conformist instead of the intervenors instead of the innovators, there's real dissatisfaction but no new course of action. I have a, a uh letter here I just received from a, a Japanese uh university professor and that describes conditions

00:43:02.120 - 00:43:23.159

in his own university which has been on strike since April 1968 says no solution is in sight and the students offer no solutions. They just simply refuse anything that uh faculty or burnes of mediation suggest. And the only uh course of action that seems apparent right

00:43:23.169 - 00:43:41.800

now to close the university, I'll be very interested in your insights into this problem. Uh You uh you start out saying that you thought this was uh that there were some many causes for student unrest uh uh throughout the world. Is this part of a nihilist

00:43:41.810 - 00:44:00.639

movement throughout the country? I don't think so. I don't think so at all. I think there are multiple factors and some of them go back to uh uh true uh what we can call physical, physical anthropology. Uh And this is probably not the time to be

00:44:00.649 - 00:44:22.719

talking about this sort of thing, but one on the issues that uh uh leads to distress, I think uh is the whole matter of sex. And I've watched great changes there since I first went to college when I first went to college uh students uh where

00:44:22.729 - 00:44:42.159

I was could not get married and remain in college. It was indecent to do so. Uh what we've done is quite a number of things throughout the century that uh that have limits that we uh surpassed. And one of them was to prolong the infancy of

00:44:42.169 - 00:44:59.590

human beings who were educated, we kept them infants till at least age 22. Then if they went on to uh advanced uh uh training and so on to become professionals phd work. And the like they're still not producing members of society, even though they wind up

00:44:59.600 - 00:45:18.590

with their phd S. You see, and we treated them as infants and this is the reason our colleges and universities, so many of them are placed in these strange obscure little towns in the United States. It was a tainted reason to protect these young innocents from

00:45:18.610 - 00:45:34.360

the evils of city life. If you took a job at age 16 or whatever, that was fine, you were then a full length member of society. But if you weren't a producing member, you were a child and be treated as a child. Well, look at the

00:45:34.370 - 00:45:51.570

human lifespan, you see, and the, the the best gas of the uh of the, the normal healthy mode is still about 75 years. Divide it into three parts and you find the middle age is 25 to 50. This is what we do for any other living

00:45:51.580 - 00:46:12.350

thing except human beings. And it's our own technology and culture that has prolonged this uh infancy. This means that uh our college graduates of course, are trembling on the verge of middle age and yet we have treated them in many ways as Children. Now switching over

00:46:12.360 - 00:46:34.540

suddenly presents equal problems since they have built in sets of values from childhood about sexual relations and so on. Uh that are disturbing and it certainly is disturbing to them. And the same with other kinds of responsibilities. We get up to a certain point and then

00:46:34.550 - 00:46:57.639

we expect them suddenly to take over uh to be masters on these uh things. Matter of fact, the last decade, you know, might in some ways, be called a man's rediscovery of his own primate nature. Prevent vast changes in sexual behavior and many, many other things

00:46:57.649 - 00:47:19.399

and attitudes. Uh one can suppress al or mold those things up to a certain point, I think. And, and uh then you reach the threshold of uh disruption. It has been important to me in this and I assume we'll come out of this all. Uh all

00:47:19.409 - 00:47:42.199

right. There is one thing about our education and the stress on it, it makes it difficult for anyone who is seriously minded as a scholar, uh scientist. And that's the fact that that uh most of our college students are in college under Du Moras that is

00:47:42.209 - 00:48:03.060

they do not have the genuine interests and so on. From ancient times when we had no organized systems of education, we had people who became renowned leaders and they by and large taught themselves or got in touch with the, the similarly minded we are forcing people

00:48:03.070 - 00:48:24.500

through. It isn't a question of their intelligence. It's a question of their interest, incentive and so forth. A lot of them are amply intelligent. But let me know, uh are far fed, the education, uh social and economic pressures are such that uh that this happens and

00:48:24.510 - 00:48:43.879

the faculty members are prior to the scheme just as much as the students. Uh A lot of them are the products of the forest feeding too and do not have uh these, these kinds of interests. It is very, very difficult to be a scholar, uh, in

00:48:43.889 - 00:49:05.719

the United States or be a scientist in the United States at our universities. You have to take drastic action such as, uh, demonstrate, uh, I can't remember falsely that you're utterly incompetent at the administrative tennis and, uh, so on only then will you be left alone?

00:49:05.919 - 00:49:34.360

Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, what, um, in a university such as rice, what, uh what kind of uh of innovation would you, uh like to see, endorsed, say by uh the students, the faculty and the president? Oh, good night. There are many of them that are coming

00:49:34.370 - 00:49:55.959

on by themselves such as well at this university. I don't know, scarcely anyone is aware of it. We've had a shift in the interests of students. There is, of course, this uh uh terrible interest. Now, what uh what they call uh uh relevancy. This is the

00:49:55.969 - 00:50:18.199

word I'm grown to hate one of the worst sounding cliches of the, of the decade. We have lots of them. Uh know there's been a shift uh very considerable shift uh from some of the traditional branches of study uh into those with relevancy, the one thing

00:50:18.310 - 00:50:41.719

but into something else into social sciences that are not uh applied where one must infer the applications. Uh At the present time. In the fall semester, 1969 approximately 20% in the undergraduate student body of this university will be enrolled. In four departments as majors in the

00:50:41.729 - 00:51:03.689

social sciences. This is a genuine shift uh social science and humanities uh um uh composed about one half of this university. It's very slightly larger than one half I think. But uh uh it is uh interesting that the number of majors in the foreign departments in

00:51:03.699 - 00:51:30.860

Social sciences. This is political science, psychology, anthropology, sociology combined and economics are uh somewhat over twice as great as the number of majors in all of the rest of the humanities, which is including uh uh uh history, uh classic philosophy, uh English, various language departments, uh

00:51:30.870 - 00:51:51.879

linguistic thing is included there. And so you've had a real shift of interest there. But I think part of it is simply the lateness of the growth of uh uh some of those fields and my own is the youngest of all and is having a general

00:51:51.889 - 00:52:19.280

boom all over the nation and around Roma and uh uh attendance. Um It's a matter I think of uh of some concern on the uh balanced educations. You see, we have a number of requirements here of um a certain amount of uh uh literature and humanities

00:52:19.290 - 00:52:37.129

and so forth, a certain amount of hard sciences and so on. And this is all under question right now and I expect it will go and they will be considering me more latitude allowed to students in the kinds of uh the kinds of uh curriculum or

00:52:37.409 - 00:52:55.360

curricula. Uh you know, they uh enroll and I expect this is a desirable uh speaking for myself. When I first entered college, I couldn't find a major I wanted and I became for a time, a non matriculating student and I could take anything I wanted. And

00:52:55.370 - 00:53:18.760

later on, uh when I was much older, I did find something and went after it, tooth and nail, so to speak. And I think we have quite a few students of uh uh of that kind. I expect that what we need is a variety of kinds

00:53:18.770 - 00:53:42.489

of schools. I was uh like the idea of a school in this part of the country such as rice uh which was highly selective. So on now, I think there's a place for that kind of school. We had other kinds of schools here so that you

00:53:42.500 - 00:54:03.260

have to arrange. And I think this is advantageous. We have some attempts now to alter that uh to uh bring unqualified unprepared students in. I think this is undesirable. We, we need more than one kind pendulum swing back and forth, you know, in education in America,

00:54:03.270 - 00:54:27.080

we had an education for years for special schools, for gifted students and mago them now, uh what I have seen here is some attempts to switch away from that uh to, to bring it all down uh with ideas of social improvement, social welfare involved, to be

00:54:27.090 - 00:54:56.379

sure these things I think we see best in uh retrospect and also we see whether a president of the university was good or bad in retrospect. Uh, how would you evaluate at this point? Uh, Doctor Pitts's, uh, presidency or is it too soon to, to do

00:54:56.389 - 00:55:14.530

that? Oh, I don't mind evaluating it at all. No matter of fact, I even put something in print on the issue at the time. He left here, the, uh, uh, student newspaper printed a, uh, what seemed, it seemed to me a terribly unfair article of entitled

00:55:14.540 - 00:55:40.580

Pit with Entangled Pitzer goes to greener Pastures. The whole article was devoted to complaint. Um, and they found very few issues about which to complain. I'd say that he was an extremely active and extremely effective president who gave very good service. He wasn't very lovable, but

00:55:40.590 - 00:56:04.330

I don't have to love a president in order to find him uh, satisfactory. I think maybe that's an American trait. You're supposed to love all people in office. So you put in mayor curling and, uh, other people, uh, whose, uh, uh, moral reputations are, are not

00:56:04.340 - 00:56:26.830

regarded by their supporters even as being good. Amazing how we fall for our own rhetoric. Yes, indeed. No, I think he did a number of things here. It's a vastly different place from the Rhymes University of 1960 when I came, Fitzer came the following year and

00:56:26.840 - 00:56:53.399

there have been many, many changes, but Emory University has undergone changes uh, in the meantime, and the position in question, the president is a, is a very difficult one. I think there was a, has been a trend of change for a good, many years away from,

00:56:53.409 - 00:57:16.879

uh, strong authoritarianism, uh, obvious authoritarianism is, is the point. The question? Oh, fine. As long as it's pound and that's the point you have to have, uh, direction and so on. There are ways of making palatable and, and, uh unpalatable and I think we've had this

00:57:16.889 - 00:57:37.120

with deans, everything else, a trend away from authoritarianism to being uh to being gainers, collators and so forth. And this is about all that works well. Today, Hitzer certainly listened to anything any chairman had to say and he listened carefully and he gave a good deal

00:57:37.129 - 00:58:03.810

of autonomy to departments within a pretty firm boundary. And he was an effective president. Now in the course of uh my professional career since I've been at Rice, I have lectured for the National Science Foundation at many, many uh small and obscure colleges and universities. This

00:58:03.820 - 00:58:23.949

is a program which provides lectures for two or three days and feels that these uh uh colleges and universities uh lack and you can by and large. I can say this that the poorer and the more obscure the institution, the more authoritarian its president. When you

00:58:23.959 - 00:58:46.479

go on to institutions, uh I can produce documentary evidence here such as some of the uh uh Negro Colleges and Universities where the evidence it seems to me is printed on the letter hand, it says this is an actual case, Grambling College. On the latter hand,

00:58:46.489 - 00:59:09.199

this is used by all departments of the college. Below that it says, I can't remember the name. I may come to one JB Pruitt President. That's all it says uh beyond giving the address and that is uh indicative you find older, this is not to, not

00:59:09.209 - 00:59:32.969

to uh brand those places is bad. What you are finding there is uh uh a lag and retention of old patterns among the small or poor, most obscure universities pattern. Yes, it reflects uh uh uh times gone by for the whole nation when we had far

00:59:32.979 - 00:59:57.100

more of this vertical line uh evident. And we've got a good bit more of the horizontal there now. And the question is balancing the two meeting uh needs of the individual inc including the egalitarian um needs or feelings here. Plus uh the administration in this direct

00:59:57.110 - 01:00:19.330

line and the successful administrators do do that. They make their, their uh uh authority palatable. Have you ever had a chance to talk at length with Doctor Masterson about his uh views? Uh for the university, I would be very interested in knowing what he, what he

01:00:19.340 - 01:00:40.370

had in mind. Um For rice, there have been so many things imputed uh to be his beliefs that uh that any insights you can. No, I don't know, except that he would uh he uh aspired to, to uh make it a superman in university. He wanted

01:00:40.379 - 01:00:59.260

very much to do that. And I don't think he had clearly formulated plans himself along those lines. Was he a kind of man who would have uh listened uh uh very much to the department chairman? Uh would he, would he, do you knowing him? Do you

01:00:59.270 - 01:01:20.969

think he would have been uh an interventionist kind of president or do you think in this new position that um he uh would have given them considerable autonomy, he would lessen and I think he would probably follow tradition pretty well on the longing autonomy too well,

01:01:21.649 - 01:01:49.939

uh to departments. I think in so far as he could be, he would be authoritarian, just the faculty. Uh And the, and the department chairman would uh need to stand up for the policies they wanted implemented. Well, I think so. I don't know when England would

01:01:49.949 - 01:02:11.300

have been a good president or van. Well, I would guess he'd have been uh mediocre and the blas wouldn't have gone on after all. I'm sure we must have had a very bad president that runs the university out of only three in the last decade or

01:02:11.310 - 01:02:38.929

so, of um uh Mr L's Reign as it was called. And he was certainly an authoritarian and he certainly accomplished some things. You see, authoritarianism is simply one way of doing things. If you look at it objectively, it's uh it's uh become uh a uh majority

01:02:38.939 - 01:02:55.429

of term right now. But I don't think necessarily has to be looked on that way. You can be authoritarian in terms of everyone's goals. Uh, just, just to accomplish the goals that everyone has in mind. Of course, of course, do you know if the, if Doctor

01:02:55.439 - 01:03:16.550

Masterson had any strong feelings about restricting the liquor policy or the open house policy oncologist? No, I don't know anything about that. I don't know anything about that. He himself was a social drinker. I do know that I know nothing about that. Uh, I think he

01:03:16.560 - 01:03:41.840

was, uh, in a number of views right there. Old fashioned. I can also add that. I think we've all seen men elected to office who will, uh, did their utmost to meet expectations. But this has happened over and over again with the presidents of the United

01:03:41.850 - 01:04:03.810

States along the line as politicians. They were politicians in the see sense at times, but once in office they're committed, they're committed, committed to, of course, the virtue and fairness and so forth. Uh, and an awful lot of eyes are on them and eyes are constantly

01:04:03.820 - 01:04:28.530

on the president of the university. Do you think that Doctor Mason has? Doctor Masterson had a lot of growth potential in that respect? I don't know. I don't know. Do you, uh, know much about the course of his presidency to Chattanooga or, uh, have you not

01:04:28.739 - 01:04:49.169

that I know I visited there and I lectured there. Uh, I know that he was extremely happy. You mean, his weren't there. And I know also, I think quite clearly from contacts with other people in there that the buying, I say we were very pleased with

01:04:49.179 - 01:05:11.030

him. And it wasn't merely a matter I believe of the board of trustees being pleased. I mean, the faculty also was there were things he attempted to do. He was successful in his first year in rounding up a, a fair amount of money. And that seems

01:05:11.040 - 01:05:36.469

almost to be welcome at universities. And I very likely in the measure is this that uh the uh uh University of Tennessee was expressed pleasure and uh his remaining with them, it's so hard to make these statements, you know, about the oh OK, probable careers of

01:05:37.060 - 01:06:01.010

people because I know some awful cases in the United States including one appointment not so terribly long ago of a president of one of our largest universities, a man who is absolutely psychotic. I've known him for nearly 30 years. Hundreds of people know this. He has

01:06:01.020 - 01:06:23.649

control most of the time and uh uh a vastly wonderful um image of himself that he uh uh projects. And so far he seems to have been doing quite well in office. I realize it's difficult to make these statements about a presidency, but a number of

01:06:23.659 - 01:06:55.260

people felt competent to make uh negative judgments of his presidency in advance. How long was this downing at these uh uh Sears how do you evaluate their motives? Well, two or three of them that I know of, uh, uh, were people who disliked Masterson who knew

01:06:55.270 - 01:07:19.429

that he held them in very long regard? Would their loss have been a loss to the university? No. Do you think there would have been mass resignations? Um, if he really had become president are the jobs that easily obtainable throughout the country? And there are lots

01:07:19.439 - 01:07:38.979

of jobs but it really is trying to be a business to move. Uh uh in part because the families and Children and so on. It's, it's difficult being in business. Uh How would you when there had been mass ran Design Nation or not? I don't think

01:07:38.989 - 01:07:59.270

there have been mass resignations. There might have been some people that uh that when they would be, it had been impossible for him to serve after that rumble came, it would have been quite impossible. What can I put a rumble in your hand? Well, the main

01:07:59.280 - 01:08:21.209

thing was simply the procedure in the barn and this provided an opportunity you see, for free floating dissatisfactions of all kinds to surface. Uh And this is what is happening with their students. Clear down a lot of student unrest and as they're individual dissatisfactions that come

01:08:21.220 - 01:08:44.779

from diverse sources that are in a strong sense, displacements. How can one, for instance, as a student regarded it as a major issue that leads to violence and so on? Oh, regard this as the main duration. This is from Duke University over the range of a

01:08:44.790 - 01:09:07.319

pay of custodians ordinarily neither faculty members and students know that. And the rate that was paid there was of course, the prevailing rate for the airing of the university could hardly pay more without getting in trouble with the industry in the state and the industry or

01:09:07.330 - 01:09:26.338

the human beings that represent industry are the ones that are supporting the university. Uh It must ordinarily go along well. Uh You can see you get a lot of people searching for a cause in short as it's called. But uh there's, there's a displacement, a kind

01:09:26.349 - 01:09:47.970

of scapegoat is uh there that's involved too. Do you uh do you think there would have been nearly the rumble? Uh had the uh selection of the board been someone that uh was highly popular with the faculty and the students? I think they're in a rumble.

01:09:47.979 - 01:10:15.790

Anyway. Do you think he would have been allowed to come and serve though? They're likely they're likely if you uh if you were to name a number of um say either faculties uh members or, or student leaders, how many would you say were really the central

01:10:15.799 - 01:10:41.520

core in mobilizing opinion in this uh in this rumble, faculty members, faculty indo students. Just how many do you think it took? They're probably only about a half dozen faculty members um on the dissident. So, uh they were really uh was there for us and uh

01:10:41.580 - 01:11:21.660

I instigated students and so on. Uh, and it's hard to say but, uh, uh modal opinions were, um, this presumably is what you're learning here. Uh It's clear that nearly all the faculty and the students objected to the procedure and affirmed to

01:11:21.669 - 01:11:53.549

the board. Uh Then I think that there would have been a relatively little objection to Masterson if it hadn't been for faculty members, uh uh arousing and sighting of students. And that was certain I was down over at uh uh hands and cartilage as, as you

01:11:53.560 - 01:12:13.649

know, doctor uh Norbeck, we've been conducting these interviews in a very unstructured manner. Uh If um if you were the interviewer on this project, what questions would you uh would you be asking? Well, I work as an anthropologist and I get uh specifics. Uh I work

01:12:13.660 - 01:12:31.770

mostly in Japan and in this case, in order to understand the uh circumstances, I ask for specific names and I tell the people beforehand and nothing will ever come, none of this will ever mean repeat it to anyone. You will never see it in print or

01:12:31.779 - 01:12:49.819

anything of the kind. But for me to understand the circumstances, I have to know who did this on his own. That's how I can learn something about his own trades, characteristics and his relationships to others and so on. Uh I asked for things as specific as

01:12:50.220 - 01:13:16.990

possible. Mhm And in this case, uh I don't mind being specific on a couple of, uh, uh, and the Disi dissident faculty members. One is Alan Grove. Uh, I have known him casually for a long time. I have, I think almost avoided him socially, uh, because

01:13:17.000 - 01:13:40.419

he seemed so misanthropic, uh, for my years when he, uh, uh, first came here. I was, uh, uh, so he didn't seem to, then at least to observe ordinary, uh, uh, uh, rules of the etiquette and so forth of reading. And the, uh, like in recent

01:13:40.430 - 01:14:12.080

years after he got some popularity with the students, he seemed to, uh, uh, be mellor and, uh, he is intensely interested in, uh, problems in minority groups, negro students. Um, and like, uh, probably some of it stems from his own background. God, I don't know whether

01:14:12.870 - 01:14:34.330

it is fair. I don't think it's uncharitable to think that the fact that he was raised as a poor boy in the, of the Bronx, I think of New York perhaps. Uh Brooklyn, the speech is unmistakably, uh, there, uh, as a, as a poor Jewish boy

01:14:34.339 - 01:14:59.229

on the wrong side of town and on top of that ugly had something to do with his own, uh, psychological state. And, uh, he is, uh popular with the, uh, uh, students here. I didn't know it was a desirable kind of education or not. One of

01:14:59.240 - 01:15:28.049

the students told me in commendation of, uh, uh, Doctor Grove that he was remarkable. He said anyone that can make me read. Paradise Lost twice. Is remarkable. But is it a desirable thing to make someone read Paradise Lost twice? Uh, I don't know. And there is

01:15:28.060 - 01:15:54.350

this interest on his part and Negro students, as I have said, and it is not, uh, objective. He seems to think that the circumstances with regard to him. I, I Israel is quite different that it's all right for Israel to, uh, be involved in warfare, uh,

01:15:55.040 - 01:16:16.890

aggressive warfare with neighboring nations, but not all right, otherwise, uh, for other nations to do this sort of thing. And there's a, it seems to me a remarkable lack of objectivity there and there is a projection of the south into emerling, no setting of himself. Uh,

01:16:16.899 - 01:16:43.279

uh, aside, I don't think this is a desire when way to educate students at all, uh, to, to bin them for, uh, to, uh, causes, uh, ideas, uh, values and so on in any blind, uh, sort of way. Another one, Mr Dowd, uh, who may know

01:16:43.290 - 01:17:05.819

that Masterson regarded as one of the, uh, stupidest members of the faculty and a great many other people do. So, he was, uh, the same for and, uh, I think probably a bit, uh, mi mouth at the end. His wife was, uh, going through some, uh,

01:17:07.029 - 01:17:29.609

organizing activities and getting people to sign a letter to send to Mrs Masterson commending, uh, her husband upon his courage and, uh, uh, so forth sterling character in declining the presidency. There was nothing else Masterson could have done. He's not that stupid. And uh uh this,

01:17:29.620 - 01:17:52.979

it seemed to me was uh reprehensible sort of uh behavior. Uh I don't know whether that was actually done or not, but there were attempts on the part of Mrs Dowen uh to do so in which uh it looked to me like uh uh uh white

01:17:52.990 - 01:18:20.180

washing uh well part and then uh home And then of course, we have the chronically disturbed the marginal uh case or Tums as it is, uh uh Doctor de Breacher was always been excitable and a pain and inarticulate, highly articulate pain in the neck at faculty

01:18:20.189 - 01:18:38.560

meetings and everything else. It seemed to me disgraceful that he should be shown that he should have done this and to be shown on television doing it, shaking his fingers in the uh Masterson's face in Fenwick with uh what was said to be 1200 people present.

01:18:38.569 - 01:18:59.310

Excuse me. Just a second. I can't remember where we left off. We were talking about uh the breacher being shown on television, shaking his face with Laar and in the presence of 1200 people, he did not shake his fist. I think he shook his fingers. I

01:18:59.319 - 01:19:17.549

think his hand was open and it wasn't quite the same as shaking the fist. Well, Dowton shook his fist, not at Masterson but at Jim Castagna because Jim Castagna got up and said kind words. On behalf of Masterson, was this at the teach in, at the

01:19:17.560 - 01:19:42.770

gym on Saturday morning at this, these two occasions stuff. Yeah. Then there are vested interests there and so on. Uh, at, uh, uh, work and, uh, and, uh, really borderline cases. Uh, I don't think, I remember that, uh, that, uh, the brammo gram is at all

01:19:42.779 - 01:20:10.799

effective, you see, in arousing students. Mhm. The other two were and grog in particular, how do you account for that? Because he's looked upon band to brahma. Everyone was an eccentric. His arm was ax eccentric. There are constant gestures and so forth and, uh, some fascinating

01:20:10.810 - 01:20:46.069

ones, the gestures don't seem to go anywhere with the speech and they're trouble and trying to see any logical con uh for any culture. But these other two seem to, uh, be held in some esteem by the students. Allen Grove in particular. Yes. Yeah. Do these

01:20:46.080 - 01:21:06.049

men have, um, have tenure? It would cross my mind what a president might do. A professor with tenure. I think the most. Um, well Dowd was a, a full professor there, of course masters and was involved, I think in much talk and activity at the time,

01:21:06.060 - 01:21:27.109

you know, uh became uh a full professor and at the time, he became chairman with the greatest doubt as to his ability as a chairman. And uh uh this is the man in the Pitzer talked about with me a number of times when I served his

01:21:27.120 - 01:21:56.990

dean, his opinion of uh uh d was equally low. We just didn't express it to doubt. And the other hand, there were many people who, uh throughout in this, you see, did not compromise themselves to do anything. This is the vast majority. They thought they were

01:21:57.709 - 01:22:20.959

for saying action that was perfectly right, appropriate, ethical and so on. And that represents the mode for the university as only a few uh who were doing otherwise. Um, if you, who did so, I think sometimes pretty disgusting, a victory down South in front of the

01:22:21.970 - 01:22:47.870

Library of Alan Grove and Alan Matteo. Uh Alan Mount though is also extremely popular with students, I think was uh uh pretty nauseating to many other people with shouts of we won, we won. Well, it d it was a sad kind of victory with a good

01:22:47.879 - 01:23:11.779

many losses involved because I think the whole manner could have been handled quite a different way without disruptions of relations among uh faculty members. How much of this affected me? I don't really know since I've never been identified with any cause, any priority. Anything. I'm absolutely

01:23:11.790 - 01:23:35.450

unpolitical. Frank Vander told me twice at the time that there is no future for him here since he had given outright support to uh Masterson that he would have to leave. Well, of course, he didn't leave. It's interesting that uh he was appointed as acting uh

01:23:36.549 - 01:24:02.720

acting president, I expect he will win and except the presidency, perhaps somewhere else. I don't know, but there weren't just options. All right. And, uh, exactly, I mean, in relation to things that will never return to a former state. And as I expect it was mild

01:24:02.729 - 01:24:24.529

here. But for my own part, I think what I found was the most difficult to bear of all was the meeting of Hanson College with this, uh, the meeting really devoted to the attacks on Masterson's character. And then the report by the college president, you could

01:24:24.540 - 01:24:53.589

have known very little about it, but God, his ideas uh from other people that uh uh Masterson was uh morally reprehensible. What questions would you be interested in asking the board for instance, about their uh their selection? Well, I expect, I know the answers, any question

01:24:53.600 - 01:25:17.790

I could ask them. They had good reason, good reason to think Masterson would be acceptable. He had been honored in so many ways here for one thing. Uh The uh at the last previous graduation exercise, he had given the address. Now, perhaps they are the ones

01:25:17.799 - 01:25:41.120

important in inviting him. Uh I don't know, but it certainly came with the concurrence of the, of the president. Uh and then many other activities that have uh had uh honored him. And I think they did, as Mr Allen stated at the faculty meeting, uh see

01:25:41.129 - 01:26:03.569

some virtue in having someone who knew the scene here and was an alumnus and among the virtues I think they saw was finding someone who is tractable. There have been recurrent reports that uh uh during the last two years of uh uh pitch's administration, he was

01:26:03.580 - 01:26:29.859

increasingly at odds with the war of governors. Do you think that they interpreted uh uh their invitation to the faculty to form a uh presidential selection committee and their uh acceptance of five names uh to, to view uh was constituted for them uh a um consultation.

01:26:29.870 - 01:26:47.399

They invited them to make the recommendations, they made recommendations, the board looked at them and for one reason or another discounted each of the members and went their own route. Um Having seen the memo uh that uh a lot of blood it sent out, uh it

01:26:47.410 - 01:27:08.100

could certainly be interpreted that way that, that he would consider this consequence that, that he never had any intention of, of giving him veto power. I don't know uh what they had in mind. These are across older people and uh I'm sure more or less that

01:27:08.109 - 01:27:31.180

in their ways and they used to having a great deal of uh uh authority and I'm not sure there was good contact among them. What that one organ of the bar knew what the other was uh was doing. Uh Mr Lt was, well, there wasn't good

01:27:31.189 - 01:27:54.319

communication among members of the board. Uh Mr Lt was ill at the time, Mr Allen was uh in charge uh so to speak and I'm not quite sure if there was question um good communication. It was reported that one of the members of the Board of

01:27:54.330 - 01:28:16.410

Governors reached by telephone by a faculty member a couple of days later and never heard anything about anything. It was all news to him. He was uh not in the city, um but that everything was new. And so, uh to him, I realize it's getting near

01:28:16.419 - 01:28:31.509

your lunchtime. Uh Doctor Norberg and I, I really do appreciate the time you've given us this morning. Uh, uh If we should have other questions later on in the summer, uh uh perhaps we can come back to you then, uh will you be here? Uh Will

01:28:31.520 - 01:28:49.470

you be going any big? They've got about two weeks. So end of July 1st of August and a few days, the end of August. But otherwise, I don't know, be here in the city. I'm usually at home working there. It's easier to work there. Do you

01:28:49.479 - 01:29:18.720

have anything more you'd like to add before we close this, this session about your general impression of this whole uh four day weekend? Well, I think it was quite disruptive, much more so than, uh and uh appeared on the surface. So most people just simply didn't

01:29:18.729 - 01:29:40.799

talk in America personally about their own reactions and uh uh so on. And uh I think there was a probably quite a common feeling among faculty members had to hammer getting into all of this and of course, it wasn't what I bargained for, but this must

01:29:40.810 - 01:30:14.430

be, you know, to that we have and, um, the German in, in college, I think most of us are looking for him with not much pleasure, but the future might hold. And, uh, at the present time it doesn't look rosy. I put tens of funds for

01:30:14.439 - 01:30:44.330

one thing and the uh uh strong possibilities of friendly, different economies and uh real agitation for change without any clear directions for change. Uh just simply change. And we get that in many, many sorts of ways in April, I um uh conducted a large scholarly conference

01:30:44.339 - 01:31:01.850

here uh under the auspices of the Social Science Research Council and we even had the same sort things there among the members of this conference. And these are all scholars, some weren't young and they're all professionals, but uh some movements to change whatever it was, it

01:31:01.859 - 01:31:23.979

made no difference what it was, seating arrangement, anything, some small movements to try to change the whole. Well as it turns out, none, none of these worked out the arrangements that were uh designed upon were the most satisfactory under the circumstances. But there were, there was

01:31:23.990 - 01:31:53.589

this kind of feeling of unrest and we had to do something different. I don't know what happened. So next time I've heard a number of our uh uh senior and aging faculty members that expressed the sentiment. They're gonna be off glad to retire. Hm, I would

01:31:53.600 - 01:32:11.850

doubt that there has been very good and clear communication of all kinds of uh uh university problems and sentiments and so on to the Board of Governors. I talked with Mr Lovett for about an hour and a half in May, I guess it was. And uh

01:32:11.939 - 01:32:30.160

it was clear to me that there were a lot of things that were, he knew nothing uh about. Well, this has probably been the tradition. You're dealing with these people alone, but you must deal with, they're busy people for one thing. And the novel line that

01:32:30.169 - 01:32:53.700

most dealing is uh financial. Of course, I don't know what the idea is, but I can expect this for the future that among the institutions, it will be questioned increasingly uh in the nation and the born of governors, in particular, first, the qualifications of the incumbents

01:32:53.709 - 01:33:23.040

of the bar and very likely in the institution, the Board of Governors, it all left me quite tired. I'll tell you, uh, I think I had no vested interest in the manner of, of want amor and, uh, certainly changed my view of, uh, a few might

01:33:23.049 - 01:33:53.029

have colleagues here on the campus and in ways that I, you know, don't care for. But, uh, I guess we, uh, carry on by that. Do you mean you were disappointed in the conduct of some of them disgusted? And I suppose many people feel the same

01:33:53.040 - 01:34:09.200

way. I don't know. I haven't talked about it. I haven't talked about it for a long, long time. Well, the three men you mentioned were people for whom you had little respect to begin with. Were there others uh who, who lost esteem as a result of

01:34:09.209 - 01:34:46.370

this? You know, think of one. I thought I haven't had much contact doctor and I miss it. So John has out of the and some college. Oh, wow. And Ross. And at great length gave an exhibition of pomposity, right in which and was directed against Masterson.

01:34:46.379 - 01:35:12.169

Well, I mean, that's all right, isn't it if he wishes to express doubts about qualifications and so on, but simply that the manner of doing this and the kind of coding to the students, it was to me very unpalatable. And you see there, there is uh

01:35:12.180 - 01:35:33.689

uh a very tiny trend among some faculty members at any institution kind of students and their own business was uh I think express described quite clearly by Carol Camden, one of our senior professors of English a long time ago, he said almost any one of us

01:35:33.700 - 01:35:55.569

can become vastly popular with the students by giving attention to them, spending time with them and so forth. Uh But most of us uh feel that we have other things to do, which is quite right. We do. We have, we have a few people who cultivate

01:35:56.049 - 01:36:30.620

uh students and do so deliberately. It's not mine uh the proper among the techniques of education. Uh uh at all. Well, those things are always with us. Ok. I think a good, many of the students managed to remain pretty objective throughout the whole business. Uh, how

01:36:30.859 - 01:37:05.950

I know I hadn't thought of any in the manner for when I descended it aside. I pretended I felt very considerable personal language or the distress to, uh, Masterson and his, uh, wife and, uh, I imagine however that, um, now carry on, uh, pretty well. I

01:37:05.959 - 01:37:28.859

said he does have the same in grace and the endearing trait of being Hamilton. I found himself and this does one news at times knowing Dr Mason as you do. Do you think that, uh, do you think that he will be able to talk candidly with

01:37:28.870 - 01:37:55.910

me about these matters or do you think it's so painful that it just, I don't know how candid he might, uh, be, I imagine there would be a number of things that he would, I not tell you, but I am sure at the same time you

01:37:55.919 - 01:38:12.439

can learn something from him. Did you, uh, do you have plans to talk with him? Well, I certainly think it's very important. He hasn't been approached about it. Yes, he's, he's been approached. I mean, has he consented? He's, he's being somewhat coy at the present. He's

01:38:12.450 - 01:38:38.100

planning a very tight schedule. I, of course, there's plenty of time. I don't know just how it all might work out. Mhm. I think the one that the one of the disturbing things is the from the current requirement. Uh, he and his wife too, were both

01:38:38.109 - 01:39:04.080

informed that, uh, the appointment hadn't been cleared with faculty and students. And the report to me comes from a number of sources including Mrs Masterson having sense out to people. And then, as I said, I can't recall what the Masterson's words to me were but my

01:39:04.089 - 01:39:33.569

telephone conversation with them, I also got this strong impression he may not sowing farms in Grantly. Ok. I think it's very important that uh that, that several things from his side be entered into the record. And then, and uh if it isn't, it's uh it's, it's

01:39:33.580 - 01:39:58.359

going to be very unfortunate. So I hope he will. Uh Mhm. Well, it must have been a pretty shocking experience. So I'm sure I have a notion that this was his, his dream. Well, I'm sure he wanted to be a president in this institution for many

01:39:58.370 - 01:40:22.189

years. I got the impression he had a great deal of leadership ability, uh almost charisma that, that uh people who were loyal to him were loyal to him. And uh in uh in very personal ways, he had a great deal of personal charm when he chose

01:40:22.200 - 01:40:48.640

to use it. Very great team. Indeed. And the kind of grace there was the honor, the lion king and pinching. It was really pretty graceless. So, but uh had other Sterling Bose. Yeah, he had that on the answer. And there are also occasional reports that uh

01:40:49.279 - 01:41:09.330

that team was intemperate. I'm not referring to liquor, but at times he would blow up. Kids are all blow out, would depend on the person. My relations with both of them were splendid as long as the most pleasant and I think we enjoy it. Uh I'm

01:41:09.339 - 01:41:34.689

wearing kind of, we have a hat, uh, both of them, but I'm lines. That's right, that he helped all the times and uncontrollable temper and so on. What the hell sometimes it's a very effective tool, an administrative tool. Do you think? Can you think of any

01:41:34.700 - 01:41:56.509

reason why um Doctor Masterson uh could be soured on this uh on this particular project? Would he have any reason to think that the car is not inspected against him and that there's, but that might be reasonably reluctant. No, I mean, it's perfectly reasonable. It fell

01:41:56.520 - 01:42:30.970

on this line of thought that if he answered and injustice been under him, which I think everyone would agree and that absolutely nothing from your standpoint is to be gained by interviews of this kind. And he would certainly want to know who hears the interview and

01:42:30.979 - 01:42:51.390

who does incidentally, who's going to listen to this, the uh uh just the transcriber and uh and myself and the transcription I'll send to you or bring over to you uh after it's completed and you can check it over for accuracy. Uh That at that time,

01:42:51.399 - 01:43:13.240

there's an agreement with the uh faculty members who are in the uh principal investigators named in the project here are not listening to the tapes. Oh, that's fine. They would not, they would not be, the tapes would not be open to them until 1974. At which

01:43:13.250 - 01:43:34.220

time they would be open to all scholars with whatever restrictions that the individual interviewees may want to impose on certain sensitive parts of the testimony. Um The agreement form uh that will be giving you will be like this except that it will read five year uh

01:43:34.229 - 01:44:01.890

closure instead of two the period of closing the archives has been extended. Mhm. Mhm. So there when you get the transcript in hand, if there are certain pages, you wanted to exclude uh for a longer period of time or to restrict for, you certainly could, I

01:44:01.930 - 01:44:31.330

can't think I want to explain, explain anything. There are of course, no matters in there that of course would be hard. My remarks about uh two or three of our uh professors uh if um they earned them and so on. And uh I have known well,

01:44:33.089 - 01:44:57.220

really knowing your feelings to them at all. Uh I don't want to be around them and so forth, but this is quite a different matter from having any sort of hateful feelings. We were talking just a moment before about uh Doctor Masterson's response to this uh

01:44:57.399 - 01:45:18.029

to this project. Uh It, it seems to me that, uh, the one advantage that, uh, I, I hope that he will see would be that, um, uh, to, to allow any, uh, uh, alleged statement of fact to go unrefuted is, uh, you know, it can be

01:45:18.040 - 01:45:38.700

dangerous to a man's reputation. And if, if, um, if you like not this paint, uh, it seems to me to that it would be, um, duplicating, uh, a situation that occurred during that four day weekend in which the, the voice of moderation was practically swamped by

01:45:38.709 - 01:46:00.370

the, you know, the flood tide of uh of the majority of the things. And that uh I would not at all like to see this project duplicate that. And with, without uh the, the sort of things, the sort of answers that only he could give regarding

01:46:00.379 - 01:46:23.970

his own to the presidency, to rise to education, to students. But uh many of these impressions would be allowed to say, what kind of people are you going to interview? Now, faculty members and students? Well, uh this is the 32nd interview so far, uh about 86

01:46:24.000 - 01:46:48.850

might have considered in interviewing another category of person. Well, we're, we're certainly uh uh I don't know, I don't know the value, but let me make a suggestion that the uh secretary in the D's office down here in Mrs Church. Now, if you're speaking of measures

01:46:49.049 - 01:47:08.339

of character and so forth, uh secretaries who worked with people for a number of years and form opinions. Mrs Church was my secretary when I was there for a year and a half. She has served for many deans here. She has no personal devotion to anyone.

01:47:08.350 - 01:47:37.759

She is remarkably detached. Marvelous. Well, that's, I appreciate that. And her opinion of Masterson and she knows him intimately, including fables and some amusing fs too. Uh, it is very good indeed. And, uh, uh, of course, I know her pretty well too. I often spoke to

01:47:37.770 - 01:47:53.799

him his absolute devotion to the place here, which of course, it's not the mark of a good president. You could be devoted, I expect as a gardener. And I think we have had devoted gardeners here. But I think, I think that she can tell you a

01:47:53.810 - 01:48:26.509

very great deal if she's willing to talk well to do so well. If you are interested in doing it, I can talk with her and ask her if she won't talk, she'll know a great deal. And you see some of it amusing in the finals. Masterson

01:48:26.549 - 01:48:42.279

used to forget things. And, uh, it was quite amusing in that way. Once upon a time he forgot what salary I was supposed to have and been offered a position elsewhere and a salary. Oh, immensely grain than here. I had really wanted to go, but it

01:48:42.290 - 01:48:59.479

had nothing to do with, but think about it, it was that much greater. And so I talked with him and we arrived at a compromise and then when, when notice of my salary change came, it was $2000 less than the amount we had agreed upon. I

01:48:59.490 - 01:49:20.270

thought I knew what happened. I went down to see him being from Dalton. He's forgotten. And, well, I did get with some, a research stamp in for the year which put me slight but, you know, I didn't mind putting relationships there and understanding of what had

01:49:20.279 - 01:49:42.620

happened was perfectly all right. There was no, no uh anger. He, he uh apparently it was um such strange terms with Pitzer in the last year that he used, he used to get agitated every time a telephone call came from Pitzer, um, he had instructions to

01:49:42.629 - 01:50:08.120

ring a free bell alarm on the telephone press the buzzer three times with Spitzer. And then he would charge about the state of agitation and uh wife and none of the faculty member, Mrs Cellini was his second secretary there and, and Mrs Church and she thought

01:50:08.129 - 01:50:26.640

this was exceedingly amusing and it was funny behavior because I've seen it too. Uh He, he just seem to hate to get together with him. Well, in this occasion, he came out acting so funny and Mrs custody and are trying to control her laughter and she

01:50:26.649 - 01:50:45.759

couldn't, she was pressing it internally and then she fell down beneath her desk. I guess that provides amusement to everybody at the time. Well, they never could say what it was. You know, people didn't know. This is quite unknown. This is the first time this tale

01:50:45.770 - 01:51:13.009

has ever been told. Of course, there's no point in talking about things. It does give some notion of relationship between Masterson and uh Pitzer and a good bit of it here was of course, authoritarianism and uh uh plans of wells and so on which we encounter

01:51:13.020 - 01:51:31.439

among human beings. So, would he have gotten along perfectly with the PD? Had he been a yes man or is that not get along well in him at all? And he must not be yes. Now, so if he had been a man of ignored ambition and

01:51:31.459 - 01:51:48.819

being a yes man would have been one route to approval of uh oh, he'd have been fine a bit, sir. He was not an ass man. I was clear a bit. I didn't get along in it. No, he was a man of fact, pitcher, I think

01:51:48.830 - 01:52:16.990

very early in his career ensured that he, that uh all uh administrative couldn't do for family. Our administrative uh opposition was neutralized uh quite early in the game, he neutralized and the chancellor Mr Cronise never saw a chancellor with less authority. And Mr Cronus, he had

01:52:17.000 - 01:52:47.049

roles, all right. And they were of some importance, especially in public relations but no authority when and I suppose this is indicative of the yes, no, no, no, my business there. But uh I was just was not a yes man for not at all then he

01:52:47.060 - 01:53:08.120

might have solved some of our problems. Had he been here yesterday? Yes. Uh huh. I suppose there's different ways of doing things and different, uh, personalities because I had no problems, whatever with p, but it may be some difference in manner of presentation and also the

01:53:08.129 - 01:53:31.430

fact that any issue that I am proud to have, it seemed to me, all the facts were there clearly and only one course of action was reasonable and possible. And that's your day lesson even less than the Green Home. I don't know, it's a pretty bum

01:53:31.439 - 01:53:59.009

job. He has been the university, I guess that's why there's too many openings around the country now. Yes. Hundreds hundreds. And you can be an angel of perfection most of the time just steadily but make one bad uh err in judgment or some other act but

01:53:59.020 - 01:54:19.770

uh isn't up to par and your brand that is down all the way through. And of course you're not branded just for that. You, you know, your whole character is, you know, suddenly it becomes evil. Yeah. And there are other reasons why they're having problems with

01:54:19.779 - 01:54:39.959

administrators, you know, getting them. And, uh, one of them is uh just plain income. Uh, and for all this, there are easier ways to, to in the academic world, the best possible position financially and privileges renowned and everything else to be is to be a professor

01:54:39.970 - 01:55:10.799

of distinction without any kind of administrative responsibilities, uh scientists and scholars of this kind who are able to write today was the publishing boom, a financially fire off the administrators, fire, fire M I myself served under duress as, as dean here for a time and it

01:55:10.810 - 01:55:43.430

uh represented a financial loss uh to me, to do so because of losses in uh um royalties in particular and some from uh some from lecturing and uh I'd say detracted from professional uh reputation. That means a, a distinguished uh professor in sciences, humanities or whatever,

01:55:43.750 - 01:56:05.189

uh who does conduct research or rights and so on. Uh Simply today is uh an answer of fire f we only the administrators in my own field, which is one of the smallest in the nation. And the, and the newest, we have several people uh whose

01:56:05.200 - 01:56:38.459

incomes are over $100,000 a year and two of those feel that they cannot hold regular academic appointments right now. Where does the income to grand? Um Well, this has been a real pleasure. Uh Doctor Norbeck, I uh I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you

01:56:38.470 - 01:57:02.859

and uh get your, get your views on the record, uh, know how much it is directly uh um relevant uh here and I don't know what we're gonna wind up with as administering this. Uh But I expect the key right along here is really, again, a

01:57:02.870 - 01:57:22.620

new conception of the authority. All right, but I have to take the kind of geometric figures that I was talking about that balances these vertical and horizontal lines among human beings in general. There must be people with whom we relate on. Uh in terms of equality.

01:57:22.669 - 01:57:43.180

We must also have uh uh what we used to call oranges of command except we can't call it that today. And more and more we are seeing this done uh through things that are ostensibly horizontal through the community boards is that and what you start examining

01:57:43.189 - 01:57:59.720

them, you will find a few therapies there too. It, of people who are doing the things, having the ideas that are put forth as suggestions and uh sometimes very skillful and put forth in anyone in this way. And then anyone that can't see the merit of

01:57:59.729 - 01:58:15.419

this is the under courses of action uh is beyond the need and the depth of his stupidity and so forth. You just have to be skillful at doing that. There's no tend to intimidate the opposition, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I'll uh make a guess as a

01:58:15.430 - 01:58:38.259

matter of fact about one academic figure Clark Kirk. I would think that part of his difficulty was that he wasn't keeping up with the times he was sticking to a, to an old fashioned conception of a presidency that involved very obvious authoritarianism at a time when

01:58:38.270 - 01:59:04.819

this was no longer acceptable, but he certainly was authoritarian. I was on the staff at Berkeley for six years before I came here vastly over nine years of authority. Now, the family everywhere else. I'm uh uh for seven years. Uh as I said, done research in

01:59:04.839 - 01:59:21.859

Japan, I did learn research project on religious and social change there. And one of the questions was to try to explain the success of some new religious sects. They've grown enormously in size when the nation as a whole was turned away from religion. 70% of people

01:59:21.870 - 01:59:39.740

don't even law, but there's some vast ones there. And, and the answer can be put very simply in just the, the terms I had used before. It's a question of balancing these horizontal lines and the vertical lines are in short meeting the needs of the individual

01:59:40.229 - 02:00:02.330

which include this feeling of fili on the gamma tearing level and the objectives of the organization at the same time. And you have both of them, the authority and the democracy and you balance them. No, when you say that Clark Kerr was behind the times in

02:00:02.339 - 02:00:24.660

this regard. Uh Do you mean as, as far as uh his impression of the uh authoritarian nature of the, of the president of the university? His own conception of his own role of his own role, he was authoritarian and uh what had become old fashioned wings

02:00:24.669 - 02:01:08.259

that were no longer acceptable. I'd say I really can't think of anything I can uh uh contribute further here if I contributed to anything uh at all. And uh I think I had no vested interest in, in the business, whatever. And I'm prepared to support one

02:01:08.620 - 02:01:31.910

as president, as long as I can support him. And, uh, when it seems clear that he is really inadequate and so on, then we do something else. I'm thoroughly familiar with incompetent deans. Well, we've had more than one here and we go right along. We find

02:01:31.919 - 02:01:53.770

other ways, uh, uh, to do it would be much more satisfactory if they were a competent, but they don't hamstring the endeavor. Uh We go on and the court in the university is telling me, man, it's the faculty and the students and if they're functioning is

02:01:53.979 - 02:02:16.109

the, is the, of their first unit is impaired by uh administration disruption or even administrative tasks assigned to them. And I think we run into real real problems. Well, thank you again for your time.