00:00:03.070 - 00:00:12.020

Today is April 18, 2021. My name is Ann Shi. I'm an associate curator at the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University.

00:00:12.510 - 00:00:28.760

Today we are interviewing Echo He in the "People of Art" special collection of the archive. Echo is one who wears many hats, besides being one who makes herself as a hat artist with her own brand, "Chapeau Echo," and she's a gallery owner, curator,

00:00:29.330 - 00:00:42.750

writer, and art researcher. Thank you so much Echo for joining us today. Thank you for inviting me for the oral history interview. Thank you. To start, I guess we can start with you coming into existence.

00:00:42.750 - 00:00:57.230

And can you tell us a bit about your childhood? When and where were you born and the household, the household you grew up in? Okay. I was born in Chengdu in southwest China.

00:00:58.760 - 00:01:11.710

But I grew up in a small town that's very close to Chengdu called Deyang. Deyang is an industrial city, with not so much art and culture around. My mother is a doctor and

00:01:11.710 - 00:01:31.690

my father works in law, for the government. It's a very traditional and typical, practical Chinese family. I grew up not with a lot of exposure to art because my city is

00:01:31.720 - 00:01:47.120

very small, only two movie theaters. No art galleries, or art museums. But I love reading. So my exposure to art and

00:01:47.120 - 00:02:02.070

literature, mostly from books and films. I love reading magazines. So while I was young, I hoped one day I can be a writer

00:02:02.070 - 00:02:18.070

and contribute to my favorite magazines. That's a start. Wow, that's wonderful. And what are, what were some of the family values that your parents brought you out with?

00:02:21.910 - 00:02:40.340

I think my family values persistence and treating others as you want to be treated.

00:02:41.320 - 00:02:56.650

My parents are very humble. And down to earth people. My mother actually was the vice president of the hospital, but I never feel that

00:02:56.800 - 00:03:09.800

she has any power distance with her colleagues. I grew up in a hospital. My mom would, well my mom worked very hard. She often takes night shifts.

00:03:09.830 - 00:03:29.520

So she needs to sleep in a hospital about every twice a week. And then I will sleep together with her in the hospital. And that's a very lovely experience for me. But also sometimes scary,

00:03:29.520 - 00:03:47.680

so lovely in a way that I, growing up, see hospital, not a place for sickness and suffering, but as a place for community and for friendship because I'm friends with

00:03:47.680 - 00:04:01.560

all the nurses and doctors. And they would ask me about my study and my new writings, even while I was young and little they would ask me like why did you write in the

00:04:01.560 - 00:04:20.530

Chinese class? And the scary in a way is still because leaving the hospital there are a lot of weird things can happen. Like I would had nightmares standing in the empty ground in front of the body burial room.

00:04:21.690 - 00:04:33.030

And I couldn't wake up. So that's some of the early spiritual experience I had in the hospital. That's something very special to me.

00:04:35.400 - 00:04:47.260

That carries on to my later experience in art. I'm always trying to find a way that art can help heal

00:04:47.260 - 00:05:12.240

people and connect. Did you draw yourself when you were young? I, I started Chinese painting for six years, since I was six.

00:05:12.560 - 00:05:27.870

So my parents tried to, like other parents, try to develop some personal interests for the kids. So they asked me what do you want to learn piano or dance, or

00:05:29.750 - 00:05:48.290

sports. And somehow I'm very fascinated by the painting brush, the brush paints, the Chinese brush, “mao bi”. So I went to a small class of Chinese painting. And the training was very

00:05:50.770 - 00:06:06.530

disciplined, and indoctrinated some— in some way. For instance, we were asked to— the first class was to draw a penguin; and the second class was to draw, to draw a panda.

00:06:07.350 - 00:06:20.600

So basically, for four or five years of the practice is to copy someone's, so there's no of this real creativity side. But I still very enjoy it.

00:06:20.600 - 00:06:32.910

Because it's basically all my weekends need to go to that class, and I can't go to the playground with other kids. But I still enjoy it because I like the feeling

00:06:34.630 - 00:06:54.000

to touch the paint and the brush and make something into life, to create something that belongs to— that's in my mind and see that comes into reality. So carry–

00:06:54.120 - 00:07:06.010

that carries on later, when I go to middle school, I might start it gets very busy. So I stopped going to the art class in the weekend.

00:07:07.390 - 00:07:22.840

And I stopped painting for a long time until the third year in college. I, I was really pursuing a business career at that time. So most of my time was spent in finding internship,

00:07:23.280 - 00:07:42.050

international cooperations and the business competition, and I felt a little bit lost. Then in the third year of the college, I finally got exam, I entered the graduate school of Peking University without examination

00:07:42.860 - 00:07:55.970

because I was the first in my class. So it's “Baosong” . So I finally can relax a little bit and think what I really want to do with my life.

00:07:56.760 - 00:08:11.050

And I want to paint again, so I took a painting class in Peking University with Mr. Li Aiguo. And I continued to paint from there.

00:08:11.930 - 00:08:29.810

Later, I got a scholarship to Europe, I decided to to take a half of the gap year from that. So I still took some of the classes at University of Amsterdam, but most of the time, I carry my painting board

00:08:30.410 - 00:08:47.220

and travel in different countries, and the paint on the street, paint on the Chinese round fans. So that became a turning point. Later, I finally decided to quit

00:08:47.220 - 00:09:08.790

my career in business world and devote myself fully in art. Wow, that's an amazing experience. I'm also wondering when, as you were describing your experience of sleeping over at a hospital, and that art has

00:09:09.210 - 00:09:25.790

come into your life as a way of healing and it's almost spiritual. Can you describe how this journey and this trajectory of art, like what has it been for you in this encounter from an

00:09:25.820 - 00:09:45.250

early age? So, I grew up as I said– I grew up in a very small town, so really very limited exposure to art and literature. So all my art reading are from magazines.

00:09:46.630 - 00:09:57.340

That was in about 1993 and 199-... 1993 to 1995. So you can, you can imagine how limited China had at that time.

00:09:58.240 - 00:10:13.910

But the, the hospitals office has a subscription to some of the visual, more visual like magazines. So I would go through those magazines and to look at those pictures.

00:10:14.880 - 00:10:32.280

And I really like those. So I will— later I subscribed to a newspaper called a newspaper called “Zhong Guo Shao Nian Bao” , the “Chinese Youth Daily”; and a magazine called a “Zhong Hua Shao Nian” ,

00:10:33.270 - 00:10:48.750

Chinese Youth”. And I have a– this clipping, for a clip book of all the illustrations and articles I like. And I will save them.

00:10:48.990 - 00:11:07.860

So those add colors to my somehow boring childhood. Even in a hospital, I can get some fun out of it. So for that time, I f— I find that, oh, it's actually very interesting. Like how people can get like something

00:11:09.260 - 00:11:21.060

delightful in a very repetitive and boring environment. And the later why become a curator and become a writer, I always want to

00:11:21.310 - 00:11:34.830

think from another way because I didn't grow up in the artist’s family or with art, I always start to think like, how will the normal people perceive art? And how art can be presented in environments,

00:11:37.820 - 00:11:56.490

and in people who never really saw art? Like they never have art as their paid daily life? Yeah, and I, like now, I always think, “Oh, it

00:11:56.600 - 00:12:15.560

would be great if there are some artworks in the hospital. So when people enter a place that's normally scary, and you want to avoid, if you see some delightful scenes, maybe that make you feel good.” Yeah, there's

00:12:15.560 - 00:12:27.960

definitely a lot of power in art that we should still discover, are yet to discover. And I'm very curious, like how spirituality has been for you.

00:12:28.810 - 00:12:48.180

Like, did your parents bring you up with any spirituality? No, no, actually, my– my family's very classic Chinese family in a way that both my parents are a

00:12:48.180 - 00:13:05.240

Communist Party members. So they are not allowed to have any religious belief or spiritual pursuit other than the, the loyalty to Chinese Communist Party.

00:13:06.650 - 00:13:26.970

SoI like, this is kind of a forbidden topic, in my family, about spirituality. But somehow, even when I was about 10 years old, I started to become very interested in this invisible

00:13:27.630 - 00:13:42.500

world. So I will pray before sleep to different gods, like Buddhists and Jesus and any invisible force I know from books and

00:13:42.500 - 00:13:59.400

the difference on spirituality pursuits, and I tried to communicate with them. And the– this is like I have to do it secretly myself, in my private space,

00:13:59.960 - 00:14:16.250

and I always believe that every, like this world is comprised with visible things and invisible forces. And the invisible forces can be brought up to

00:14:19.840 - 00:14:35.680

be seen in different ways. And art is one way to bring the invisible things into visible sphere. And that spiritual pursuit

00:14:35.810 - 00:14:47.860

was a little bit buried when I studied hard in middle school and high school and also until college.

00:14:47.940 - 00:15:00.960

That side of me was hidden and kind of buried right in the process. Practical world, and especially the business world, I can't reveal this side on me.

00:15:01.590 - 00:15:17.860

But when I was 24 years old, that was right after I came back from Europe after that nomadic life, for half a year, I got depressed. While I tried to return back to this

00:15:18.250 - 00:15:32.580

journey in business school and pursue a happy life. With a successful career and the family, I was depressed by this idea.

00:15:33.210 - 00:15:49.160

And I tried to figure out a way out of it, but don't know how. At that time, I was fortunate enough to meet with some people who was able

00:15:49.160 - 00:16:03.510

to really develop in the spirituality, like develop a lot in the spirituality. And I started to learn through meditation and practice, to connect

00:16:04.170 - 00:16:22.250

with this internal self. And live in a way that follows intuition beyond logic. So, since the age of 24,

00:16:24.120 - 00:16:40.690

I really tried to live a way like that. And later in this past 10 years, there are more and more turning points in the life and very big challenges in the life.

00:16:41.440 - 00:16:59.260

And I started to believe this more and more. And the definitely think that the invisible world takes a large part in our life. And I believe art

00:16:59.780 - 00:17:16.320

is one way to make those invisible world, visible. Wow, that's really– really refreshing idea that art as a bridge between the visible and the invisible.

00:17:18.270 - 00:17:34.840

And I'm wondering how it has kind of shaped your journey with art. How this notion of like— or was that one of the motivation for you to pursue art?

00:17:38.010 - 00:17:53.290

I think when I first pursue art, when I first started to pursue art, like, totally give up my career in the business and try to enter the art world, my pursuit was to use art to connect.

00:17:54.790 - 00:18:10.450

So I think this world is becoming more and more aloof, although we are more connected with smartphone and always different social media platform. But people tend to be even more aloof, by the convenience of

00:18:10.510 - 00:18:29.730

technology. We spend so much time on the phone, but we become very fast, and lost this slow, and in depth communication with individuals. So at that time, I feel like

00:18:29.840 - 00:18:45.640

art, I want to do art because art, the language of art is so deep. So when people see art, it's already communicating

00:18:45.640 - 00:19:04.500

with the work, and with the space and with the artist, and even two people who never know each other when they stand in front of work, and think someone; strangers can share their

00:19:05.400 - 00:19:18.470

thoughts and– and imaginations freely in front of art. So that's what I thought art can do.

00:19:21.080 - 00:19:41.670

And I still think that it's one of the greatest power that art can connect people, rather than separating people. And as I continue to live in a way of

00:19:41.670 - 00:20:01.510

art, I think I also started to care about art as a way to, as a healing of sufferings— physical sufferings as well as mental, as well as this mental and

00:20:01.940 - 00:20:17.020

psychological sufferings. And the– the even beyond the healing that's further pursuit of spiritual— spirituality.

00:20:19.610 - 00:20:37.310

That's not only a job of the artist, but also everyone can be able to see this larger world through the way of art and other forms.

00:20:37.340 - 00:20:56.360

But of course, my pursuit would being art so I would say, so art, this is something everyone would be able to– to– to feel and pursue. Wow, that's really amazing to share.

00:20:57.740 - 00:21:15.020

And I'm wondering, to recap a little bit, we've mentioned you went into a degree in Peking University for business, in fact, an MBA, can you describe, yeah, like kind of going back your— going through your education experience?

00:21:16.960 - 00:21:27.180

I didn't get an MBA. So it's a Master of Business Management, and a Bachelor of Business Management, but it's not MBA.

00:21:28.100 - 00:21:44.910

It's more like an academic direction while I was in business school. So I, okay, so high school, I was a very good student. Although I escaped quite a lot of classes.

00:21:45.590 - 00:22:01.790

But I still was able to get a very high score in college entrance examination; I was number five in Sichuan Province. So, at that time, I got to choose whatever

00:22:01.790 - 00:22:19.480

major I want. So although I really want to start archaeology, at Peking University, all my parents, and parents' friends think that I should pursue

00:22:21.260 - 00:22:39.730

a school that admits the best students, that students may, the students who have the highest scores, so very narrowed definition. So what's the best schools at that time, that's

00:22:40.150 - 00:22:54.200

Business School or Law School or Engineering School, but I didn't come from the science background, so I should decide between law and business. Now I look at the curriculum on both schools, and I decided I definitely don't

00:22:54.200 - 00:23:06.880

want to become a lawyer. So I chose business school because the business school actually has some interesting classes in sociology and psychology. So I figured out, if I go to the business school, I guess that still

00:23:07.650 - 00:23:21.470

one hand I can meet my parents expectation, as well as I can pursue some classes that I really like. So I went to university to study business

00:23:21.470 - 00:23:43.740

administration. In undergraduate with other very talented students, most of them are number one or number two in their province, and I suffered a lot in the first three years in Peking University and because

00:23:43.740 - 00:23:57.610

it was very competitive, and I didn't speak English at that time, I came from a very small city, most of my classmates are from very good high schools in Shanghai, in Beijing.

00:23:58.480 - 00:24:17.390

And I'm from a small city where English is just for college entrance examination, not for men– or for– for like daily development. So I suffered a lot when I need to prepare for

00:24:18.170 - 00:24:34.610

international corporations interviews, or go to the some important business competition that I need to proceed, and I need to fulfill, but I was still able to finally got some good internships in

00:24:34.860 - 00:24:53.740

consulting firms like Boston Consulting firm, and Mercer Consulting Firm. And at one time, I thought maybe that's all that's my goal. I already achieved; I should continue to pursue. My dream was to work in

00:24:54.800 - 00:25:07.790

a big company. In CBD area, and I can climb those career ladder one, a little by little. And finally, I have a big office with all the floor to

00:25:07.790 - 00:25:20.810

ceiling windows and the look out of the very busy city and feel I'm at the center of the power. That was my imagination. One, I took the bus, which is one hour and a

00:25:20.810 - 00:25:39.590

half from Peking University to Boston Consulting Firm. I need to take that bus every day to the internship. One hour and a half for one way, one hour and half the other, one way, so three hours all the way and I was like, very

00:25:42.150 - 00:26:03.530

in that bus full of people to be in front of that and think, okay, now I started as an intern, and one day, I would be in this top of the building at the be, in the power, in the center of the power. But I don't I, I feel very disoriented.

00:26:06.390 - 00:26:27.630

After I do one goal after another, like, Oh, I got this internship. And then I got the first place of an important business competition, awarded with a seven days’ trip. And like all this very fancy business world thing, I should

00:26:27.710 - 00:26:46.810

be very happy, but I feel so lost. So I was, I started to think what's wrong here, then maybe I'm taking other people's goal as my own goal. So

00:26:47.250 - 00:27:04.860

fortunately, at that time, I didn't need to make a career choice immediately. Because, as I said earlier, I got into the graduate school without examination. So I have some more two years to explore what I really want.

00:27:05.480 - 00:27:19.310

So I thought, okay, maybe I just feel lost in the business world because I don't want money. I want to pursue some deeper interest, maybe I would suit, for the academic world.

00:27:20.020 - 00:27:36.850

So that master program is actually called an international PhD program. So I was in a PhD track. If I want, I can pursue a career as— Okay, publish papers, and then

00:27:39.860 - 00:27:56.530

enter the academia world in the US to pursue a PhD in organizational behavior, so that some of the goals of my classmates and my professor had a very high expectation on me for that. Because I was also very good at that side.

00:27:57.930 - 00:28:11.590

Still, I have this feeling like something is lost. I still don't feel happy. So my happiest moment is that I got a scholarship to University of Amsterdam and I saw, “Oh, finally, I can

00:28:12.890 - 00:28:21.290

just have some gap year. I can just to call the classes I want. And in all my spare time I can travel and write and paint on the street.”

00:28:22.070 - 00:28:39.020

And I feel very happy about that. Yeah, so somehow, the business school, I don't regret taking that, but I'm very– very happy that I come

00:28:39.020 - 00:28:53.950

out of it and chose something else. Yeah, that's great to hear that you don't regret it. But do you see anything that you learned during the period

00:28:54.020 - 00:29:08.980

that became helpful later? It's very helpful. So for— So, the business school taught me a lot of things, among them, I think, three things

00:29:09.660 - 00:29:23.600

that have become very valuable in my later life, life and work right. So, the first thing is communication.

00:29:24.830 - 00:29:40.630

I remember that in, in the business school, there is one class called leadership. So the in leadership class, I learned that 70%, for a high executive in a

00:29:40.800 - 00:29:57.130

company, 70% time is devoted into communication. So that idea is implanted in my mind that communication is so important. And the later in art, I always think how art can

00:29:57.490 - 00:30:15.450

effectively-effectively be communicated. How you communicate with the artist, how you communicate the artists’ idea with the rest of the world, and how well you communicate with the audience, how they communicate with

00:30:15.450 - 00:30:27.640

each other. So it's different doors. So this is something from business world, I learned. I continue to practice in the art world.

00:30:27.640 - 00:30:46.630

But think in a more broad, a broader way. So I think this is something in common between different two fields. And the second thing is a lot of practical stocks, like financial planning,

00:30:49.030 - 00:31:00.940

how to keep your balance sheet, like when I run this gallery, my first idea is, of course, support the artist. And then it comes, how do you make the

00:31:00.970 - 00:31:16.190

gallery sustainable? How can you create some special business model that meets your dream as an idealist, but

00:31:16.190 - 00:31:31.470

also makes things work. You can pay the rent, and pay the artists and make everyone feel contributing to this community. And those practical issues

00:31:31.470 - 00:31:54.930

include accounting, organizational structure, marketing, like a bigger investment planning, all those things I found later, very helpful. When I run the gallery, when I manage my hat

00:31:54.930 - 00:32:08.150

studio, and the one I have a job to support my dream as well as practical things, and to manage your team to work together towards the same goal.

00:32:09.750 - 00:32:28.440

The things that I learned in business school came into my mind. And the third, but the last thing, the most important thing is a friendship. Business school students not as we are to

00:32:28.440 - 00:32:43.940

our people, idealized as people who are just very practical, and just want to make money. It's not like that a lot of people have dreams as artists, very creative.

00:32:44.440 - 00:32:59.930

So, one, one classmate of mine, her name is Wuan QiaoYe, she is now working in Microsoft China, to manage the strategy in Mainland China, Microsoft.

00:33:01.380 - 00:33:19.750

She joined Fou Gallery as investor and partner in 2016, when we moved to this new space. She was, she's also a writer,

00:33:20.650 - 00:33:34.880

in her spare time. So we continue this friendship, even after school and after so many years after 10 years, and art reconnects with us and also we become

00:33:36.250 - 00:33:52.470

integrated part of each other's life, through this gallery and through art. And so many professors and classmates, I imagine the business schools still connect with each other and some become our

00:33:52.540 - 00:34:06.230

collectors, and some become like introducing some artists to the gallery. And some when they came to New York, they will definitely come to visit Fou Gallery. So it's this lasting friendship that values the most.

00:34:09.940 - 00:34:23.600

Yeah, I felt like we should start talking about Fou Gallery sometime soon. But before I do that, can you talk about what that turning point was or that trigger was for you to

00:34:23.960 - 00:34:41.770

drop the business academic career entirely? So that trigger point was after I came back from Amsterdam from Europe, before I saw there was a gap year, have a gap gap half year right?

00:34:42.500 - 00:35:03.680

And I should be back to my original track to finish my school in business, and then just find a job in consulting firm, or came to US to pursue a PhD

00:35:04.120 - 00:35:16.060

in business managements. But I was not motivated by an– by either choice. I want something else.

00:35:16.450 - 00:35:35.290

And I know it's art, but I don't know how to realize that shift. So I'm, I met someone very special. As I mentioned earlier, someone who was, has achieved very highly in

00:35:35.550 - 00:35:51.560

spiritual pursuits. That's a lady whose name is Celine. She's from Taiwan. And though she used to be a flight attendant, she came from a very affluent family.

00:35:52.130 - 00:36:08.230

And she became a flight attendant when she was young. That was a very admiring job in Taiwan. So she traveled a lot. And one day on the flight, she started to hear inner voice.

00:36:09.820 - 00:36:22.150

And then she become very confused. Of course, so she through she had mental problems. But one thing after

00:36:22.150 - 00:36:36.350

another, she started to meditate and to really practice to learn about to live with this voice. And others, she started to guide people using her ability.

00:36:38.190 - 00:36:55.250

So I met her at my most miserable time, I saw some therapist and like, I continue to see therapies there, and I even took medicine for depression for my depression, because I got really depressed

00:36:55.400 - 00:37:09.680

at that time. But they didn't help cure, and I was introduced to Celine by my grandmother's cousin. So when I met

00:37:09.680 - 00:37:32.870

Celine, she– she didn't know my name, or any background of me, but she started to communicate with this invisible world, and then say a lot of things and asked me to write down. And almost everything becomes true in the later 10 years

00:37:32.870 - 00:37:47.070

in my life. I still remember the first thing she said to me, she said, “You have two legs, and they are working towards two directions.

00:37:48.810 - 00:38:00.000

One leg of you wants to make money. And the other leg of you wants to do what you really want to do. If you can continue this way, you will be depressed.” She know I'm depressed.

00:38:01.460 - 00:38:21.620

And other things you said also include like you can borrow your one of your original energies with this creative world. You have the talent for writing and reading, like psychological healing,

00:38:22.280 - 00:38:41.580

she say that. And this is your natural talent. Don't waste it. If you continue to live the way you should live, rather

00:38:41.580 - 00:39:01.550

than the way you want to live, you will be miserable. So that meeting was, seal imprinted in my mind so strongly after even 10 years. So this is one thing that triggered,

00:39:02.100 - 00:39:19.630

but also one thing about— and other things make me, I really make me wonder, I really need to follow my dream. So at that time, I wrote an article called looking for the black sheep in the Guanghua Business school.

00:39:19.980 - 00:39:37.030

So I described my dilemma and challenge in business school and wanted to see if there are someone else like me, who was struggling or someone who used to struggle and was able to come out of it.

00:39:38.180 - 00:39:51.800

I posted it on the social media platform Renren Wang which is like Facebook in the U.S. and that one was immediately circulated out

00:39:52.120 - 00:40:07.130

very fast like a virus. So I started to get emails from different people. And in China and the U.S. say that they have the same dilemma as me.

00:40:07.870 - 00:40:23.280

Or some are them are became like really come out of business school like one. I think one guy, he graduated from Guanghua , he became a playwright, and he wants to

00:40:23.850 - 00:40:40.030

become a film director. And I think another lady wrote, wrote to me, she started a coffee shop in Beijing. So all those stories, so I feel more encouraged

00:40:42.110 - 00:40:56.620

with all the letters. And there is a boy who started in U.S. volunteered, he said, he wants to build a website out of this project, and get the permission of people who wrote

00:40:57.070 - 00:41:12.270

and then publish their stories through the website. So we built a website called the Home of Black Sheep at that time, and talked to everyone and with their permission, we'll share some of the stories out, and started to organize

00:41:12.270 - 00:41:30.860

some gatherings in different parts of Beijing. Like, sometimes we would go to an orphanage together. So all the people who don't know each other, only met online, would

00:41:31.420 - 00:41:48.690

go to someplace at some time in the day, we met up the strangers there, and then go to do some activities together. And after that, one thing, just well, opportunities came with another opportunity.

00:41:48.750 - 00:42:03.450

So I didn't really go through the past, like, “Oh, I want to find someone in the art world, and submit my resume and cover letter and find the job.” I didn't go through that path. The internship at pace

00:42:03.500 - 00:42:21.120

gallery came to me. And then I, of course, still, like talk to the director at Pace Beijing, Huanian at that time, and she took me to have noodle in

00:42:22.310 - 00:42:37.350

a little noodle shop in, in seventh grade art district. That's my first experience with contemporary art. 2010. And that was wild to me.

00:42:37.860 - 00:42:54.060

But I really like it. I feel like I can communicate with artists there, there through their work. And Feng Huanian likes me, so she decided to hire me as an intern. So at that time, I truly had two choices.

00:42:54.550 - 00:43:12.780

If I continue to pursue my business career, I should be able to go to a consulting firm and the annual salary is at least 200,000 RMB. Right, about $3-30,000 and or we

00:43:12.820 - 00:43:30.710

take this— I take this internship at Pace, Beijing which is actually some some pay so it's not too bad for Huanian actually gave me paid so it's, it's very nice on her I think I worked there five days a week, so full time, and I got

00:43:35.180 - 00:43:56.450

$300 a month. So I decide to go by the second choice to take that internship at $300 a month, and I want to fully

00:43:56.450 - 00:44:15.020

support myself with $100. So I found a basement near 798 Art District out of Peking University's dormitory and the basement with a monthly rent is 1200 Yuan.

00:44:15.880 - 00:44:35.560

So it's about $180. So I— yeah, I use so I— $180 pay the rents and the rest of $120 to support my living fees.

00:44:37.690 - 00:44:59.220

So I lived in Beijing for one year like that. In this way, I showed to my parents that this is not a joke. It's not just something I want to pursue, I'm ready to endure the hardship in order to pursue my

00:44:59.220 - 00:45:16.250

dream in the arts. I'm serious. So after this one year, I finally persuaded my parents to allow me to come to New York to

00:45:16.250 - 00:45:36.120

pursue another degree in Visual Arts Administration. And then I was able to continue to work in Pace till today. And the– or so what am I was out of NYU, I founded Fou Gallery.

00:45:37.840 - 00:45:59.370

Because at that time, I feel a lot of Chinese artists don't have a space to showcase their artworks. So Fou Gallery was founded, with the initial mission to support the young generation Chinese contemporary artists who

00:45:59.710 - 00:46:19.430

didn't have a place to showcase their works. But after seven years, our mission gradually developed and the now we have a wider range of international artists and

00:46:19.430 - 00:46:38.960

continue to run as a spiritual habitat that pursues the harmony between human world and Earth. This is what's written in the mission statement. And we want to do different activities, visual arts and performing

00:46:38.960 - 00:46:58.230

art, and different things to make it a vibrant community. Could you share with us the full statement, the mission statement, of Fou Gallery? So we change this theory COVID time.

00:47:03.240 - 00:47:19.040

So now, our mission statement reads like this. “Founded in 2013, Fou is an innovative organic art community, located in a historic New York brownstone.

00:47:19.490 - 00:47:34.010

Fundamentally, believing that art is a way of life, Fou Gallery is dedicated to promoting the creative talents and projects of our time. Fou began with a basic recognition that contemporary art and culture must

00:47:34.110 - 00:47:50.640

address critical real life challenges faced by our societies through holistic, sustainable, and spiritual practices. Fou represents an alternative to the commercial model or mainstream galleries, and serves as a habitat that

00:47:50.850 - 00:48:08.120

nurtures a harmonious relationship between the Earth and ourselves.” Wow, that's beautiful. And you definitely brought in that idea of art and nature, which is so prevalent in the

00:48:08.720 - 00:48:27.380

Chinese painting in the classics of Chinese literature as well. Can you share with us the concepts behind that? That's a very interesting question. So I'm very influenced by

00:48:28.860 - 00:48:47.810

the tradition of Chinese landscape painting. I started Chinese painting for many years, growing up, as I mentioned earlier, but at that time, the practice was mainly skill, rather than

00:48:50.840 - 00:49:09.070

the philosophy, philosophical and aesthetic. My, like, I'm more influenced by the aesthetic side and the philosophical side of Chinese painting. After I came to New York.

00:49:12.490 - 00:49:27.620

I took a class at New York University in the Institute of Fine Arts with Jonathan Hey, about the methodology to appreciate and study Chinese

00:49:27.620 - 00:49:46.060

painting. That class really broadened my view on the Chinese painting, and I spend a lot of time to go to Metropolitan Museum ’s Chinese gallery to read and analyze those paintings.

00:49:46.870 - 00:50:04.190

So that class was a great education for me and that museum down the street. So I've also started to write about China's art history at that

00:50:04.190 - 00:50:21.680

time. Of course, it's more like a news articles like reviews of exhibitions in Freer Art Gallery and the Metropolitan Museum of Art. So I become thinking more and more about this relationship. And this special— What's so special

00:50:24.720 - 00:50:44.810

about Chinese art, or Asian art? And what's differentiate that with the Western art? So I think this pursuit of the relationship, this harmonious relationship between human and the

00:50:44.860 - 00:51:01.070

universe is something very special in Asian art in general. In the traditional Chinese landscape painting, normally you don't see the strong existence of human figures.

00:51:01.660 - 00:51:21.370

Normally, it's like very tiny human boundary, in the last scrawl and immersed by the natural landscape. Or it's just dominated by nature, no

00:51:21.430 - 00:51:42.430

human beings existence at all. However, in Western paintings, you see a very strong presence of humans, normally, right, the portraiture tradition, and the like, even in

00:51:43.250 - 00:51:59.620

it. Okay, so if so we say like in Western art. In art history, you see, very strong paintings are depicting religious subject, or historical

00:52:00.920 - 00:52:19.390

matters. So landscape takes a relatively smaller part in Western painting compared to Chinese art history. Of course, this is controversial, but in China's art history, traditional leaders thinking that landscape painting is

00:52:20.900 - 00:52:32.710

the most intellectual firm– form. It's more, it's higher, higher than the figurative painting and flower paintings, right. So we have this saying which is controversial.

00:52:34.040 - 00:52:50.150

But there is this idea of human is part of the nature, and is part of this universe, rather than dominating the nature and the universe. So I think this is a strong

00:52:55.260 - 00:53:11.900

ideology or philosophy of me. I think we are, as humans, we are part of this larger universe. And artwork in areas in space, they are here for

00:53:13.390 - 00:53:31.600

a shorter time, a shorter time. The universe has been here for much longer time than our bodies. So after 100 years, all of

00:53:31.670 - 00:53:49.790

us would be gone for what's left would be this mental pursuit, embedded in some object, right? This building is 100 years old, we're looking around what

00:53:49.950 - 00:54:02.340

else is 100 years old. Maybe some of the artworks would stay. And if we think about 5000 years, nothing will

00:54:02.410 - 00:54:22.690

stay. So of the endeavors we are doing now. Thinking a long time, it's for nothing that why we continue to make art to build something from nothing. And if we had this idea, this vanity, would we

00:54:23.110 - 00:54:37.450

still be creative? Some questions I continue to ask. I think this is something related to Chinese painting or Asian painting.

00:54:37.450 - 00:54:51.840

I think we go too far, but maybe this provides some explanation to this question? Yeah, yeah, totally. And I also want to point out from my personal experience with

00:54:52.160 - 00:55:09.020

Fou Gallery, the artists And the art in the space are like definitely has a strong connection to the environment, to nature than to like a specific individual body which is

00:55:09.350 - 00:55:25.330

how I found that... Yeah. So everyone likes the garden building and this old and other natural light so, Fou Gallery is very

00:55:25.790 - 00:55:40.070

different from our traditional white cube gallery. So even though we have these tracking lights which normally work in evenings; but the space is more lit not by not controlled lights, but natural lights.

00:55:40.550 - 00:55:53.070

So you see every artwork is changing all the time. So when I first ran this gallery I think I often being asked this question like, “how do you control the humidity?” “How do you control the

00:55:53.190 - 00:56:06.070

temperature, would the artwork be damaged?” Or like, “if it's too humid?” and everything. And I— first I was thinking like how to explain this, and how many years I said, “you know what?

00:56:06.070 - 00:56:19.070

We really– didn't really control the temperature and the humidity, we just leave here as artwork. If we protect ourselves and human beings can survive in this environment, the artwork should be

00:56:19.110 - 00:56:38.920

too.” So if they change it's part of nature. As you age, the artwork would age too. Yeah, that's totally true time is such a strong and powerful element in all aspects. And can you talk about how

00:56:38.920 - 00:56:55.930

you named Fou Gallery? So, Fou, “Fou Hua Lang” . The name “Fou” when writing in Chinese is “Bu” and “Kou”. Fou has

00:56:55.930 - 00:57:09.220

two pronunciations. One is “Fou,” one is “Pi”. Fou means denial and ineptitude. Pi is one of the symbol– one of

00:57:09.290 - 00:57:24.640

the symbol from the 64 symbols in the “Book of Change,” “Yi Jing,” which is used for prediction of future and the

00:57:32.410 - 00:57:49.480

planning for personal life in the country life in ancient China. The symbol of Pi, it is the last symbol of the

00:57:49.480 - 00:58:07.020

60-64 symbols and it means the extreme of unfortunate, but also the turning point of Fortune so there's a saying or “Pi Ji Tai Lai” means the end of Pi

00:58:08.620 - 00:58:28.860

brings the upcoming of Fortune time. So first I came up with this name Fou because when I first started this gallery, I want to make a gallery which is differentiate from the traditional convention

00:58:28.920 - 00:58:43.330

white cube galleries, I want to call it the “Bu Shi Hua Lang” — “Not a Gallery.” But two weeks before the opening, Bai Ming, she was making the art book for us at that time.

00:58:43.380 - 00:58:52.260

So Bai Ming said, “you know, there's another gallery in Hampton, means ‘not a gallery.’ You definitely don't want to have the same name as…” So I said, “they have it too maybe.

00:58:52.260 - 00:59:09.870

It's fine.” And she said, “No, no, no, not another gallery with the same name in New York.” And I said, “Fine, fine, we'll think about another name.” So two weeks before the gallery opens, right, I had a dream.

00:59:09.910 - 00:59:22.260

Well, I woke up, I think, “Oh, Fou is an interesting word. It means ‘bu shi’ , but it also has this ‘Pi,’ like unfortunate come with fortunate. So I said, “Oh, Fou is

00:59:22.260 - 00:59:38.860

actually interesting name, let's look at F-O-U.” So I realized that this word means similar meanings in different cultures. So in Japanese, “Fou” is the same field, is the same meaning, denial, negative.

00:59:39.850 - 00:59:56.400

And the F-O-U in French means “drunk”— Oh, sorry, means “crazy”; and in Scottish it means “drunk.” So the same feeling, like wild, drunk, negative; but maybe the turning force of the

00:59:57.070 - 01:00:11.890

positive and fortunate things. And also I like when you write the gallery's name Fou, “Bu” and “Kou” means not speaking. So it's very silent, quiet.

01:00:13.380 - 01:00:28.940

Since the very beginning of this gallery, we found— we self-founded this gallery, right? So me and Jia Shiyang, at that time, she was co-founder of the gallery, but she quit later. We, each of us put $600

01:00:29.970 - 01:00:46.160

as seed money of the gallery. And we don't have the money to do marketing. We used all the money: $500 to publish the artist's book; and $200 to buy the shelves

01:00:47.060 - 01:01:01.320

to install for the show; and I think $100 for opening because we made all the cookies ourselves, and drinks. So in this way, we don't have money for advertisement or marketing, we have to operate ourselves.

01:01:02.420 - 01:01:14.820

So “Bu Kou” or so things we acquired, and we kind of just want to do this things. And people who feel connected would have come here.

01:01:16.200 - 01:01:26.330

So we don't want to— Oh, just stand in the Time Square and hold our boards, say like “come to the gallery”; but we want to be very quiet. And let people

01:01:28.750 - 01:01:46.380

who feel connected, come here themselves and feel part of it. You came in that way too, remember? Yeah, and I totally feel the vibe in the, in the artwork, as

01:01:46.380 - 01:02:04.890

well as your vision and strategy with the gallery. And as one of the only gallery that showcases Chinese contemporary artists—although you do have a roster of artists that are of all countries and all ethnicities—you

01:02:06.480 - 01:02:22.890

showcase younger artists, and many of them are millennials, which is, which can be a risky choice. Can you speak a little bit about that? Yeah. So financially, it's not a good

01:02:22.890 - 01:02:43.500

idea to show young artists, because they are not recognized. And they are not very mature to make a lot of decisions. But they also have

01:02:43.580 - 01:03:00.200

this blood and this strong energy to create something special. Some people like to

01:03:02.550 - 01:03:19.990

plant flowers when they, when the flowers already grow into bigger things, or take the flowers for some other pots and put in the backyard. But I and other people in the Fou

01:03:20.230 - 01:03:41.990

community. We love to plant things from the seeds. So it's true that maybe young people, the artists and us are immature in some way, but it's immature also brings this

01:03:42.440 - 01:03:55.970

wild creativity that's not shaped or constrained by the mainstream ideas. So it becomes a laboratory for us to communicate and to create together.

01:03:58.010 - 01:04:13.500

After seven years, I think it's more this way of running becomes more mature and structured and all the other artists grow. Grow up the– for the, so like Renqian Yang, when

01:04:14.190 - 01:04:25.200

we did her first show. She graduated from school about two or three years. But now she is assistant professor at the State University of New York, Oswego.

01:04:25.290 - 01:04:44.190

Like our other artists, Meng Du when she did her first show, she was just graduated from Rochester Institute of Technology and became a fellow like she got to our part time teaching

01:04:44.460 - 01:04:58.930

position there and so she went back to China. But can she continue to live as an artist and continue to create. Now she got a lot of museum shows.

01:04:59.290 - 01:05:14.810

And she got a big follower in China for her glassmaking for her artwork. And Liu Chang, she just graduated from NYU. And though she did her first solo show in this gallery, later, she moved back to

01:05:14.830 - 01:05:29.870

China. And now she teaches at NYU, Shanghai. And she just had her first her solo show at a foreign Museum, so often the different artists, they grow up, and the galleries growing this way, too.

01:05:30.660 - 01:05:49.110

So it's, we hope to continue this creative force to support art, not thinking too much about making a big money.

01:05:49.620 - 01:06:05.230

I mean, of course, we need to financially support ourselves and support the artists. But it's not the priority, first pursuit. Otherwise, we lost this spiritual

01:06:05.230 - 01:06:19.470

pursuit of this gallery. Yeah, it's amazing. And that also shows how unique Fou Gallery is. Can you talk a little bit about

01:06:20.660 - 01:06:39.880

the strategy or how how Fou Gallery differ from the other commercial gallery models? So traditionally, galleries represent artists, and this can be very exclusive

01:06:41.680 - 01:06:54.900

and very competitive and the galleries try, tried to make the artists famous. So you spend a lot of money to, to send the artists to art fairs.

01:06:56.550 - 01:07:15.600

To this high powerful network. And as you spend a lot of money, for dinners, for networking with museum curators, this kind of thing, in order to bring up

01:07:15.660 - 01:07:29.700

the level of your artists. So we want and somehow the collectors are a very selective group of people who are in a small circle, and

01:07:29.700 - 01:07:45.290

they want to support the artists and they see other people collecting this artists and they think, “Oh, maybe I should too, because this artist has investment value.” So it's gradually become that art has investment value, then we collect this

01:07:45.360 - 01:07:55.570

art. And the one collectors come to this visit or say oh, this work is beautiful. They think, Oh, this artists would grow. And by growing, they may grow in

01:07:55.630 - 01:08:13.810

financially with their work become more expensive in the future. So this is how traditional gallery work. Fou Gallery… It's... Yeah, it's still we support ourselves largely by selling

01:08:13.870 - 01:08:28.300

artists' works. But we also diversify the income source before by hosting a lot of events and by the shop Fou Gallery Shop, which is more

01:08:28.300 - 01:08:45.540

like a design. One of its kind artworks by artists. And we want to make art more accessible rather than exclusive. So we always work in a way to create an environment that's

01:08:45.540 - 01:09:04.540

very intimate and friendly, rather than a white cube gallery that builds up status and fame and that this feeling of class like only certain people will be able to collect work. Fou Gallery’s collectors really very rich.

01:09:05.280 - 01:09:21.930

I helped a lot of collectors collect their first artwork in their lifetime. Our youngest collector, just was just born last month. So that's Michelle second daughter.

01:09:22.970 - 01:09:33.720

Michelle first got to know our gallery because she works with Fou Shop. She's a ceramic artist, and she makes us beautiful Ripple plates and other tea cups and everything.

01:09:37.320 - 01:09:57.340

And– and she, when her first son was born, she brought her son to Fou Gallery to se Liu Chang's exhibition. And Liu Chang made the– the 24 solar terms, 24 jieqi, with

01:09:57.560 - 01:10:12.560

computer generated algorithm and images. One image Shuang Jiang, “The Frost Coming”. So one solar term happens to be made the same day, as Michelle's

01:10:13.940 - 01:10:31.100

son was born. So she collected that piece for her son. So that's her son's first artwork collection. And her son was about 10 months old at the time. So later I said, Michelle, you

01:10:31.180 - 01:10:41.360

know, this record cannot be beat. Then, Michelle was pregnant again. And this time she said, "Hey, I need to beat my record, I need to acquire a work for my daughter."

01:10:42.650 - 01:11:00.280

So when she was still conceiving this daughter, she saw Du Meng’s new work, who is this girl reading a book. For the glasswork and the Du Meng will make six works with the same mode but every work should have

01:11:00.470 - 01:11:18.080

made– make based on the person who acquired it, so it's customized edition. So Michelle acquired one for her baby so I said "It's perfect, it's unborn artwork for an unborn girl."

01:11:19.910 - 01:11:33.880

So I think we– we are often asked like, "Oh, are you a nonprofit organization?" I said "No, we are commercial gallery." but people say you don't feel very commercial. I say why commercial gallery just need to feel very commercial.

01:11:34.780 - 01:11:53.420

It's, it can be art community and you can know that not like, like, even, you are a commercial gallery you can operate in a way that's that– that you use art to do

01:11:53.420 - 01:12:14.650

good things. And to connect, and all our collectors feel they are not only buying work, they are supporting this community and supporting this artist. That's exciting to hear you're nurturing collectors as well as artists.

01:12:15.220 - 01:12:31.380

Yeah. So can you also share some of the inspiring encounters with artists? . Or one of your kind of most memorable

01:12:31.890 - 01:12:47.430

experiences of a studio visit or meeting on an artist and ended up representing them in your gallery or simply the most profound experience of art?

01:12:48.540 - 01:13:02.310

Oh wow, I already experienced artist’s studio— very exciting. But I want to share one story okay. So well because we are now in Renqian so why don't I just share my story with Renqian?

01:13:03.540 - 01:13:17.550

so, so I got to know Renqian and in 2014 when we first got Fou Gallery, and Renqian was introduced by Shui Meng, she's– she's a visual design

01:13:17.550 - 01:13:31.670

artistic director. She's the artistic director of Thinx. Under there, great. And Shui Meng just introduced Renqian to visit Fou Gallery as you she was a student at

01:13:31.670 - 01:13:41.730

Syracuse University. And she came to New York and wanted found— to find a community so she came to our— oh to 14 years, she came to our old space near Barclays

01:13:41.730 - 01:13:57.090

Center. And we exchanged contact, but not frequently meet with each other, because she lived in upstate New York for most of the time. Later, she started to make these functional ceramics

01:13:57.810 - 01:14:11.540

such as plates and bowls. And she posted on her social media, and I really liked them. So I said "Oh Renqian, can I buy two bowls from you?" And I collected two bowls from Renqian.

01:14:13.420 - 01:14:26.800

In the later, when I started to do the Fou shop. So it's more for collectible artworks that can be used for daily life.

01:14:26.800 - 01:14:36.300

That's the concept of Fou Shop. I invited Renqian to join. So her brand Ren studio which focuses on this functional works.

01:14:39.430 - 01:14:50.290

And Renqian joined. So we are able to help her sell those bowls and the tea cups. Very beautiful works and every one is unique.

01:14:50.840 - 01:15:08.800

So see this tea cup is made by Renqian too. And I continue to follow her career for sure. So, when– when she first came to– to the gallery, she already showed me some of her large installation works, and I was very impressed by her thoughts

01:15:08.800 - 01:15:26.750

about her her attention to this micro-universe, like internal world as well as this sociological side like so– so her observation of the psychology

01:15:26.750 - 01:15:39.590

and sociology in the user language of ceramic and painting to express it and also her deeper thoughts about this Yin and Yang philosophy. I think it's very special.

01:15:42.000 - 01:15:57.560

She brings into some new contact to the sphere of ceramic as a Chinese artist, this is some thinking, I think very special about Chinese artists or Asian artists this– Yin and Yang

01:15:57.930 - 01:16:15.060

philosophy or philosophical understanding. So, I talked to Renqian about having a show in Fou Gallery, and we decided to do a show called Complementary

01:16:15.870 - 01:16:36.300

Color. So complimentary colors are the contrary colors in a color wheel so like red and green, blue and orange. This 180 degree contrary color.

01:16:38.610 - 01:16:56.920

So those seem to be the most contrasting colors but also the most harmonious ones, because only one complimentary color mixed together in certain proportion they produce gray color or when the light mixed together they produce white light.

01:16:57.980 - 01:17:11.240

So it's kind of like this Yin and Yang the most cultural resources come together become the most harmonious kind of like Pi Ji Tai Lai, too. Fou Gallery's name, the end of our fortune becomes a turning point of fortune.

01:17:13.400 - 01:17:32.600

So that's her first show in the gallery. And that show didn't sell at the show immediately, but later— gradually pick up and collectors found her and saw the works some of the works

01:17:33.250 - 01:17:47.100

and but you know, like sales is never the main focus of the gallery. So anyway, so we continued to work with her and I curated her show in Shanghai when she went to Jindezheng and she will make a group of ceramics and

01:17:47.100 - 01:18:04.290

paintings. And she did a show in Tao Xichuan Art Museum in Jingdezhen and later curated a show in the shipyard, shipyard 1892 that's art space covered

01:18:04.290 - 01:18:20.940

into– converted it from our old shipyard building. And then her third show, and this is her fourth show in the gallery. We became a relationship it's– it's more than gallery artists, it's more like a friendship.

01:18:20.940 - 01:18:37.230

It's basically all the relationship of Fou Gallery artists are like that. So Renqian is the first, so when my husband passed away, Renqian took days off from work and came to

01:18:37.230 - 01:18:55.830

New York to stay with me one week, just sleep in the gallery just to go to different places with me. And... Yeah, we will still, we will share a lot of like

01:18:56.240 - 01:19:10.650

personal journeys and a life with each other. So it's-it's not a simple business relationship with the artists. If it's business relationship then it ends when you don't have business

01:19:11.480 - 01:19:28.010

but with the relationship as friends, it lasts because you don't maintain friends because you want to make something out of it. So we witness each other's growth like Renqian's every

01:19:28.080 - 01:19:43.240

boyfriend I know, and my personal journey or until the definitely be part of it. Yeah, it's every artist is like that very special. Oh, actually Renqian,

01:19:43.260 - 01:20:01.160

also something very special about Renqian is— I put it on my will. While I passed away, and that if Renqian survives beyond me, then Renqian will use my ash to make some ceramics. Wow, that's really unique.

01:20:01.500 - 01:20:15.380

And it definitely speaks to the material that we all come from ashes and return to ashes in a way. So where do you see Fou Gallery heading to in the future?

01:20:18.490 - 01:20:35.190

So currently, we continue to do exhibitions and projects that expand to different mediums. So after this show, after Renqian show, it would be Weijia's second show, and this show would be—

01:20:36.650 - 01:20:45.110

we would collaborate with Chamber's Fine Art to present the show. So definitely, you'll see more and more collaborations with different galleries in the future.

01:20:45.130 - 01:20:57.880

I think this is a way to go. We don't compete with each other, but collaborate together to represent the artists and bring the artists to more audience. And after that, it will be a special immersive

01:20:59.770 - 01:21:18.310

theater that me, Ye Zhi, the florist, Chloe, and Ching-I designed together. Basically different artists work together to create an immersive theater, using Fou Gallery and the story here

01:21:18.310 - 01:21:35.400

as a background and use the hats to tell the to– to bring the audience into a healing journey, weaved by dreams, so each hat would represent a dream.

01:21:36.440 - 01:21:51.810

And the audience would follow a dancer to enter her daily life and dreams and go through this whole space and experience this journey. And after that will be the students show so one thing after another.

01:21:52.620 - 01:22:06.960

I see it's continue to consume more and more creative projects. And I see Fou Gallery expanding. But continue this mission.

01:22:07.370 - 01:22:21.090

So we'll see how the future would unveils itself. This year, we got more partners joining the gallery too. So now we have eight

01:22:21.090 - 01:22:42.030

partners. And our youngest shareholders are twins, 12 years old twins. Wow, definitely really diverse in your, your key focus is nurturing the younger generation. And next, I’m

01:22:42.180 - 01:23:00.170

curious. So I currently especially last year and extended to this year, we have been seeing art being really kind of blended and fused into our daily lives. And this idea of socially engaged art, that art

01:23:01.180 - 01:23:21.030

is a weapon or a way to, a language to express opinions, sometimes very political opinions in this category has photogallery been doing anything that is related to that Gen– like category?

01:23:22.360 - 01:23:38.190

So I really think art should be part of the social changes. But I don't see art as a weapon. But I see wap— art as sharper,

01:23:38.970 - 01:23:52.150

or like something to build, a hammer to, to help build something. So I don't like to destruct or compete. I want to be able to construct something.

01:23:52.710 - 01:24:10.320

So I see art in this way. Last year when the pandemic first started, Fou Gallery helped fund a nonprofit organization Art in Touch, which first started to

01:24:10.880 - 01:24:24.180

organize donations of PPEs to hospitals and healthcare workers. And the later we started to help the underserved community, and recently our

01:24:24.180 - 01:24:40.540

project became how to think using art as a way to– to for, for disaster relief. So we are trying to work with restaurants, connect artists with restaurants and create a

01:24:40.540 - 01:24:56.980

mural or like visual presentation and different ways to help restore the economy. So one project today they actually went to Junzi Kitchen. This kitchen is this– our

01:24:57.490 - 01:25:16.710

Chinese restaurants chain, the New York and New Haven that aims to bring the like casual, faster food Chinese food culture into daily life. So Junzi is run by a group of creative people in

01:25:17.140 - 01:25:31.440

the diversified background. So they always welcome the ideas. So as you know, we all of us have experienced this racism and anti-Asia, hate, the Asia

01:25:31.500 - 01:25:50.240

hate in U.S., and the Junzi wants to create — so we want to work with artists Tan Siyuan and to create murals using Junzi kitchens, different locations, our

01:25:50.760 - 01:26:12.680

wars, construction wars, and those paintings speak about this, the buyers towards Asian community and help bring some more awareness in this way and also

01:26:13.850 - 01:26:28.480

have this statements in you know, like, daily is that because restaurants, people would go more than galleries, right. So using this very

01:26:28.480 - 01:26:45.760

visual expression way to help Junzi, to help the artists as well, as well, as well as– as presenting a voice. And another project we are doing is to bring American artists and mongoose to work with Cafe China.

01:26:47.800 - 01:27:06.570

So it means new restaurant Cafe China is going to open in the meantime. So and is creating a special mural in the sidewalk of this gallery to make us installation that speaks about the Chinese crocheting and gardening culture.

01:27:08.830 - 01:27:19.620

That will be part of the opening of this restaurant, and help bring some people who are interested. So this is a larger project, we want

01:27:19.620 - 01:27:34.030

to work with more restaurants. Some of them are Asian, some of them are not Asian, but specifically built this creative brain or creative force together to help restoring the economy.

01:27:38.340 - 01:27:54.720

Wow, that's empowering to hear that you're so kind of engaged in the community, as well as being given voice to the Asian American community. Can you talk a little bit about your perspectives

01:27:57.360 - 01:28:09.590

of the Asian American art world in New York or in the U.S. in general? Do you think Asian Americans or Asian artists

01:28:10.380 - 01:28:27.560

like Asian for– from Asia, artists are like being fairly represented in the American art world? So it's definitely not. Especially Asian American

01:28:27.560 - 01:28:44.390

artists, for a long time, are very underrepresented because they are marginalized group. They're not Asian artists because they live here. And they're like, they're not often

01:28:44.440 - 01:29:03.150

considered as Asian artists by curators because they're living in the US. They don't live in China or Japan. So when the museums here want to find some Asian artists, they go to Asia, but they overlook the artists who live

01:29:03.220 - 01:29:21.320

here. I see this situation changing little by little, and hopefully this movement, the AAPI support movement can help. And I do see more and more galleries

01:29:22.310 - 01:29:40.280

and museums start to pay attention to this special group of artists and I think it's definitely a very good thing. Before we had this joke that Chinese artists had to live in China

01:29:40.280 - 01:29:57.600

to become Chinese artists like us, you, me, we are not considered as a Chinese artist or curator because we live in New York. So when any museum wants to do a China show like Guggenheim have, they do a post-1989 exhibition, they go

01:29:57.600 - 01:30:10.030

to China to find artists, they never connected with Chinese artists who live in New York, but their work actually reflects the the reality in China. So we said, we are living in a world that's not

01:30:12.220 - 01:30:28.300

constrained by geographic sphere. But actually it is, and it’s in a very weird way. Like the the curator of those shows would fly to China to find artists, but they don't travel to Brooklyn, to meet with

01:30:28.330 - 01:30:43.440

our Chinese artists here. I see it changing. I hope it's changing. Yeah, because definitely, it's– it's– it's not fair to overlook those artists who are very talented and

01:30:43.460 - 01:31:00.680

work locally. And strange, right? You spend 1 million budgets to ship some works from China to US to put in a museum, and you don't spend $1,000

01:31:00.980 - 01:31:18.120

give to artists here. And of course, the work is reflecting the same issue. Yeah, there's definitely an interesting connection between Asian artists and Asian artists in Asia.

01:31:18.920 - 01:31:38.620

And how do you think these two categories of artists communities differ and connect? Well, I don't think there is. Like a

01:31:38.620 - 01:31:53.000

diff-, yeah, differentiation, or connection, I think everyone's personal backgrounds contributes to their artwork. Because

01:31:54.820 - 01:32:17.440

when we look to the nature of the work, it's still the artist who can express himself or herself deeply and to connect to the roots would create the most powerful works. So I see

01:32:17.440 - 01:32:33.690

the artists here, like who grew up in us, and who grew up in China, definitely they grow up in different backgrounds, and their work differ

01:32:35.060 - 01:32:49.980

as they they see this world differently. So you can see this work is more American or this work is more Chinese. And it's, I don't know, it's– it's never fair for me to make this

01:32:50.260 - 01:33:06.590

judgment because an artist is artist. And also, I see this dimension gradually blur because more and more people who born in China can move to the west world in a

01:33:06.800 - 01:33:18.510

relatively young age, or people who are born here go back to China to so frequent travel. And this online exposure, cultural exposure definitely changed our

01:33:19.150 - 01:33:34.340

perspective of the world and the change the way of creation. So hopefully, when we see your artwork in the future, we don't ask if it's by Chinese artists, by Chinese American artists, American artists, but just by artists who

01:33:34.640 - 01:33:49.380

share his or her special perspective about this world. Yeah, that's totally true. I've always encountered that myself. And question– is it okay to address and artists

01:33:50.150 - 01:34:09.800

from as, like, with race or with country of origin? And in– in terms of curating side, know what kind of, say gender or racial divides you see in the curator field? Or, Oh, interesting.

01:34:10.120 - 01:34:27.920

I definitely meet with more female curators than male male curators, but maybe it's just my network. I definitely meet more female curators and male curators. Yeah, thank you.

01:34:27.920 - 01:34:40.570

Thank you for sharing that. And next, I guess I'm moving on to your artists hat as a hat-hat artists and the hat.

01:34:40.680 - 01:35:01.220

Oh, let me bring some hats then. . So– so Ann you would recognize this. That's the little fox.

01:35:01.580 - 01:35:17.060

Yeah! Wow. Yeah, you haven't shared a story about the little fox yet. And how it connects with the Fou Gallery. That's a really complicated story, we don't need to talk about that.

01:35:17.060 - 01:35:29.150

Okay. For next time. This may be part of the performance because this performance is about the dream. Yeah, so these are the fancy letters. I always totally adore the story of the little fox.

01:35:31.300 - 01:35:45.670

And it's such a surreal and I felt like the way that it connects with your spirituality. And maybe in the future, you can even do a show. Very site specific one in the Fou Gallery.

01:35:47.260 - 01:36:03.510

This hat shoulder this show is this fascinators are the immersive theater. That's actually a lot of other space. Enter the story behind this, and you're inspiring me, I definitely need to

01:36:03.840 - 01:36:17.030

put the dream with a fox in one hat, because every hat is about a dream. So this one is a— Yeah, this one should be that dream. Yeah. The Fox dream.

01:36:20.140 - 01:36:38.800

Great. And as– as an artist yourself, what inspires you? Besides, you talked about dream, you can also talk a little bit more about that and, and what else inspires you? Okay, so. So the way I see

01:36:38.800 - 01:36:54.670

dream is, I think dream is very interesting, because the experience of sleep and dream is so similar to death. I still think death is one of the most amazing

01:36:55.650 - 01:37:09.440

experience that human being can have. So we are very scared about death. And we don't want to talk about it in our culture. But that's inevitable to

01:37:09.490 - 01:37:27.280

everyone. And also, everyone who experienced death won't be able, who definitely like a finish dying right, you won't be able to share this experience with people who still live use use,

01:37:27.420 - 01:37:40.800

you see a lot of near death experience. But those people who had this amazing description of what they experienced, but people who really go through the other worlds, they won't be able to come back and share the story.

01:37:41.980 - 01:38:01.420

So it becomes this unique experience for anyone, never to repeat. How amazing it is no artwork can compete with this one. We talk about experience art,

01:38:01.420 - 01:38:21.820

experience economy, but no experience is more challenging than death. And when you die, you don't remember anything, and you can't go —come back. So this is very similar to sleeping while I think about that.

01:38:22.060 - 01:38:41.610

So when you sleep, everyone needs to sleep and like everyone would die. So everyone was need to sleep and when you sleep You can't remember consciously what happened in the daytime and dream bring

01:38:41.610 - 01:38:56.720

you back to some of the reality but also something beyond. It say that if you practice like, you know a lot of religious belief right in Buddhism

01:38:56.790 - 01:39:12.920

and everything, oh, sorry, not every not every religion would believe in after-life. I think, I think actually, religion is about afterlife, I think but I don't know everything so

01:39:12.920 - 01:39:25.120

I can't make that judgment. But in general, a lot of religion, religions talk about afterlife. So for instance, in Buddhism, it said that a very

01:39:28.890 - 01:39:45.140

experienced practitioner would be able to be aware after she or he enter this world in beyond and choose the way to go in next life.

01:39:46.140 - 01:39:59.610

Similarly, oh, a very good practitioner would be aware in the dream that the dream is a dream. And do you wake

01:39:59.610 - 01:40:13.590

up in the dream similar to our experience to wake up in the death. And to realize that life is repetitive and a recurring pattern,

01:40:15.220 - 01:40:34.950

And you can break this pattern when you realize it and grow out of it. So I think dream can teach us so much things. And I do think dream is a very large part of my creative, the

01:40:34.980 - 01:40:47.310

source of my creative energy. And I hope I dream more recently. I don't have this very wild dreams. But I do think if I leave more empty space, and

01:40:48.570 - 01:41:09.200

the more time for meditation and practice, I will be able to dream more. But this, this new performance is a lot based on dreams. Thank you for sharing that. That's such a beautiful way to express some dreams and how,

01:41:10.670 - 01:41:21.680

how close to death is it's actually the first time I heard, yeah, such interpretation. But it's definitely an interesting. Yeah, very– very thoughtful way.

01:41:22.730 - 01:41:40.660

And next, I'm curious about your curatorial and writing practices. What are some of the ways or the approaches you realize a vision? Or how what kind of research you do in terms of writing about an artist?

01:41:41.980 - 01:42:01.220

Yeah, writing about the artist. So normally, the artists I write are artists I know like nowadays, right? So in early times, I wrote most of the, I like to write reviews about,

01:42:01.330 - 01:42:15.880

about exhibitions in different museums and galleries are. Nowadays most of my writings about artists I know, in real life. So definitely I would, I would read the

01:42:17.060 - 01:42:30.380

previous writings, the artists works. And I would also hope to have an interview with the artist to understand the

01:42:30.470 - 01:42:47.810

ideas behind the new works in writing or like a real life oral speaking. Then, definitely the best way is to become friends with artists, and really visit the studio and in daily life and

01:42:47.840 - 01:43:08.540

don't just exchange ideas about work and about live and do– was the inspiration of the work because in the end, the artist's inspiration is from everywhere. From the book, the music, the performance, but

01:43:09.230 - 01:43:31.610

also from cooking, from gardening, from his or her daughter, or raw bird, you randomly see out of the window. So I hope to know about those in order to write something special. Yeah,

01:43:31.680 - 01:43:48.720

but for some other more. You know, writing is for museum exhibitions and gallery exhibition, that's a different story because of those artists I won't be able to know personally. So my source of information will be

01:43:48.950 - 01:44:03.970

based on secondary hand literatures and archival materials for sure. Oral history is a very important source to look at. What do you write about some more?

01:44:04.080 - 01:44:24.290

Like, who are older artists and even artists who passed away becomes some in hand materials to research? Yeah, definitely we welcome you to use our archive for your research process as

01:44:24.290 - 01:44:41.910

well. And next, I'm curious, who are some of the mentors or the people who have influenced your trajectory in life or in your artistic career? You did mention the person in Beijing,

01:44:42.090 - 01:45:00.640

Pace, who had spotted your talent and whether any, any other people that you would like to share with us, your stories with them? Yeah. Leng Lin, the current president of Pace Asia,

01:45:01.140 - 01:45:15.470

I think he's a very special person for me too. So for Huanian the director at Pace, Beijing, she already left Pace, and she is now in Beijing. She became a

01:45:15.470 - 01:45:30.940

mother and she continued to write about art, so doing art writing and criticism. Len Ling still continues to run his own gallery, Beijing Commune as well as become president of Pace Asia.

01:45:32.990 - 01:45:45.350

So Len Ling is a very interesting person, he showed me the way of how you can be different roles in art world, you can be artists . So he is one member of “Polit-Sheer-Form Office”—

01:45:47.070 - 01:45:59.860

“政治純形式辦公室 ” an artist group with Song Dong, Xiao Yu, Liu Jianhua, Len Ling, Hong Hao. And you can be artists, you can be a curator and art critic and galleries.

01:46:00.790 - 01:46:23.030

Sure. So he showed me the possibility to be different creative types in the art world, to balance different roles. Of course, he's much higher than me. But always teach me how to respect artists.

01:46:24.670 - 01:46:38.340

How to really put all the thoughts in the artist in the be– be person with integrity in the art world, because this can be very– a

01:46:42.570 - 01:46:58.530

world with a lot of power and money. It can be very dirty and messy, but so Len Ling we're– we're people with integrity. So I am very glad that

01:47:00.490 - 01:47:17.370

I met with him and learn from him in the very beginning of the career. And of course, Pace, New York, Arne Glimcher, the founder of Pace Gallery, and Marc the current CEO on a song on...

01:47:17.660 - 01:47:38.100

They're all role models, Pace galleries still puts artists interested in front. Artists' interests first, handled everything that ideal still moves, I think anyone wants to come to the art world.

01:47:38.880 - 01:47:59.250

Yeah. And I'm very— where I always find something new to learn when going through the archive in mirth, in the massive library of Pace, because I work in research and

01:47:59.330 - 01:48:19.300

archives. A part of my daily responsibilities is to manage the library and the digital inventory and archive. And I learned so much by the readings over the past 10 years, about artists, their work so every, every day is something new.

01:48:19.880 - 01:48:35.820

That brings me back to my memory in the hospital. So remember, I told you about the magazines that I can only find in the hospital. At that time, I think I was seven

01:48:36.010 - 01:48:50.030

or eight, I was going through going through the magazines or lucky if there's a job is just to read all the magazines and articles. And the later when started to work in the library.

01:48:50.520 - 01:49:02.690

I think it's kind of too sad. So you know, some of the work can be very repetitive and more like a factory, you become a daily pattern, you'll become a little bit

01:49:02.730 - 01:49:21.740

bored by that. But once I get bored, I really flashback to that childhood memory in the hospital and talk to myself. See you can you are actually very lucky, you are doing something you dreamed to do when you were a little girl.

01:49:21.740 - 01:49:34.080

Wow, that I felt like that perfectly closed the loop as we are approaching the end of the interview. Yeah. Oh, that's right.

01:49:35.770 - 01:49:51.550

Is there any, like final words and any like we also invite our interviewees to do a time capsule with us as a message for the future. Would you like to leave the time capsule with us?

01:49:52.860 - 01:50:08.350

I, you know what, I actually did a lot of time capsule curating in the gallery. So when Du Meng had her second solo show in Fou Gallery, it's called Embers.

01:50:10.870 - 01:50:26.800

And this exhibition showed our group of works called letters. So the work is combining mirrors, and glass. So each work is a piece of

01:50:27.080 - 01:50:43.460

glass combined with mirrors, and has sentence of greeting like “How are you?” “Hello, it has been a long time.” “I wish everything is fine with you.”

01:50:44.050 - 01:51:00.020

So there are nine letters in the heading there. So every day you see the sun comes and gradually moves, and moving from one sentence to another sentence. So I came up with the idea to have a letter stand

01:51:02.220 - 01:51:20.170

below this work. So when visitors come to the show, they can see down and the writer letter to oneself, or someone close to them 10 years later, or 10 years before and then use this

01:51:20.380 - 01:51:35.550

wax seal to close the ladder and you can choose to bring with you or leave it in the gallery. So I did see a lot of people, several several people, including me, right, I wrote to Jim, my husband who passed away. And there's

01:51:35.620 - 01:51:51.820

another girl, I think she wrote a letter to her grandfather. So this writing can go across time is always part of my thinking. I think it's very magical.

01:51:52.810 - 01:52:08.390

When you open a letter many years ago and discover this hidden information there. This is a way how human can finally live with time,

01:52:09.140 - 01:52:20.790

nothing encounter, like conquering, conquering time, right? And finally can leave back and let's say oh, well, I experienced so much at the time. So I love the idea of

01:52:20.840 - 01:52:40.630

time capsule. Or so for the now we have a wish tree in the gallery's kitchen. So there's a cherry branch that was left over cherry branch from a Ikebana workshop called Fou Gallery and I don't

01:52:40.630 - 01:52:53.680

want to get rid of it. So I keep those cherry branches for a long time of the flowers come off and I say, "Oh, you know what, why don't we put something on top of it." So I started to put the little jewelry that I make hat

01:52:53.720 - 01:53:02.310

pieces on them. And then I think oh, there should be some origami. So I started to invite people who come to the gallery to make a wish after

01:53:02.360 - 01:53:17.790

meditation, and then tie their wishes to the tree. So it gradually start to grow and have more and more origami on the tree and become a wish tree. And this I would say like someday if we keep it, and after

01:53:18.470 - 01:53:29.420

five or 10 years, the same people come and they recognize a wish 10 years ago, what would he or she think and would this wishes change? And will this wishes stay?

01:53:30.260 - 01:53:52.270

So I love this idea of using art or writing as a time capsule. So yeah, so as back to your question about sort of the time capsule, I think after 10 years or 20 years, when I come back to see

01:53:52.270 - 01:54:06.440

this message. Would Facebook and Instagram still be around? I don't know. But I hope well, we both look at

01:54:06.570 - 01:54:25.640

ourselves, and we think in nature we are still the same person, and we still pursue the art and creativity that we believe truly for our

01:54:25.640 - 01:54:43.380

heart. Yeah, that's beautiful. And that actually reconcile with the Chinese idiomatic expression “不忘初心”. Like it definitely reconciles with that.

01:54:44.300 - 01:55:00.150

That's really beautiful. So hopefully we can still be "中二少年 " . Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel the same. Thank you Echo for, yeah, all your work and your passion and your time

01:55:00.150 - 01:55:12.000

with us in contributing to our archive. Thank you for your time and passion too. We need to because we are the same kind of people and stand for Fou Gallery to bring us together.