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This is oral history and review number 56. Today is September 1219 69. The time is three in the afternoon. Uh We're at 333 Razor Hall, the office of Professor Douglas Price Williams, chairman of Psychology. The um dial is now on 128. This is tape 24 side

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two. Could I ask you to give me your name? And now Douglas Price Williams chairman Psychology Department, we just try that again. Douglas Price Williams Psychology department chairman. Well, Doctor uh Price Williams as a background to uh our topic of discussion day, I would be interested

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in um your personal reaction to news that Kenneth Pitzer had resigned. What exactly did this mean to you? Well, I, I saw it uh apart from the personal aspect purely in terms of what it meant for, for the department uh as it happen, I think that

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was a year where we weren't hiring anybody anyhow. And therefore, uh the plans uh went at all stratified for that year. I'm trying to remember. In fact, what happened? I do remember that we were all put in a sort of situation where we're not quite sure

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what was going to happen with the new, with the new president. Look upon psychology with any kind of favor or not and so on. I think most departments would have felt like that. We felt much the same, somewhat, somewhat. You've given us some. Go ahead. Um,

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looking back, I, I'm not sure. I think you might have done, sorry about that. I know I could let the secretary unless it's a long distance. Looking back, I, I think maybe he could have done other things but, you know, he was quite helpful to me

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personally when I took over the four or five years ago. But anyhow, we were in a state of, uh we're a young department, a growing department and every year kind of counts. And so we can't afford to mark time any one year we really backslide to

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do that. So, the natural question for us, as you say, like with other departments is what, uh what now, what's it's gonna be if anything new, new plan and um, in looking to a new president, I myself wasn't that concerned, uh with what specialism he might

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lie in. I mean, we had a psychologist or something. I didn't think it would make all that much difference frankly to, to a physicist, but uh I was anticipating someone rather like Pitzer or Heston or something of that nature. So, uh I didn't have very much

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more ideas than that. I'd heard sort of vague rumors like, um, some rumor that Governor Connolly was going to become, uh, president and frankly, that kind of frightened me and just the direction of thought was bad enough and I thought perhaps that would be if that

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was going to happen. God knows what could happen here, but that, that was wrong. Well, that was my reaction to pitzer, what character, what characteristics of pitchers were salient to you in this. I think he is, uh, pretty quick decision making. I mean, he, he would,

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uh, sum up the situation pretty quickly and he'd also be extremely clear cut pizza. He would say this is the case or this is not the case. You where you were. I can always, if I had any difficulty here, if I went to pizza with the

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four facts on the table, be absurd. Not to the pizza, you could just be kicked out of the office who came in and off. But if one came with a reasonable kind of request and he'd always listen carefully and suggest this or that or the other.

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So, uh, I, I admired him for his grasp for any situation really. And his, uh, general sort underlie of, of, uh, care and optimism and, uh, know how really was the, um, uh, the quality of being in houses standing, uh, researcher, uh, important to you and

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the president to not particularly, not particular. But the only thing is that he knew what research amounted to and of course, and I looked upon as a kind of background requisite in a sense, but a non researcher could well have that, that attitude. Uh, again, in,

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in psychology, what's been the difficulty for us here at Rice? More is that people either equate psychology with questionnaires and interviews on the one hand or, um, sort of hardware on the other and there's a whole midrange, it's very difficult to get over the sort of

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mid range of experimental stuff. Uh, two people were not accustomed to it as a matter. Even with pizza, it wasn't until we got three or four outsiders down to give a talk or, or talk with pizza. Uh, that one managed to get over the sort of

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full range of the field you see this place. The psychology has not been very much in evidence up to about a very short time ago. So we had, we've always had a hard job selling the nature of the subject to the, to any administration. Uh, but

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Pitzer at least grasped the, the scientific aspect pretty quickly once he'd been informed about it. And, uh, this, I found pretty helpful, uh, when the, uh, faculty advisory committee, um, solicited names of candidates from the faculty. Did you have occasion to, uh, suggest anyone? No, I

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didn't. Did you talk to anyone who had made suggestions and was really excited about their candidate? Yes. Yes. Yes. I don't remember who or what that candidate was now. But I remember this, in fact, was the case. Well, then when you learn that, uh or perhaps

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I should say, how, how did you learn that the board had made a decision? Well, I got, uh I can't remember the days now, but I think it was one evening, I think the announcement was made on a Thursday, wasn't it? Yes, that's right. Now, Thursday

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night, uh, one of the faculty advisory committee, I think it was Zvi Salzburg rang me up at home saying um there be a special meeting on the Saturday. It was later brought forward the Friday. And uh would I alert several other people? And he gave me

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a list of people of the chairman that I should alert, which I then proceeded to do, not knowing what the heck was going on. He didn't give us any more information about that. Uh except the opposite of something curious that happened. Then I um how I

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did learn, I was going to lunch at the faculty club and I think we passed Jim Kane who had heard it on the radio and he said you have a master of the you press and then of course, everybody knew it after that. What was your

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reaction to that news? Well, surprise, I suppose, uh mainly I, I'd known Masterson in a personal sense. Um I came down to Rice when I was at Domestic Council 19 March 63 when Marston was then dean and the then chairman of Psychology, Burt Kaplan introduced me

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to Masterson was then a view that I might come not the following year, but the year after that, because I had to go back to England first, which I then did do. And Marston was then Dean Juman. I had a talk with him in the Dean

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of Commanders office here, Rosa Hall and um quite a pleasant chat. And then the next year, the year I had gone back to England, but it happened master and it was a masters in sabbatical. And uh he and his wife lived for part of the time,

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the time he inspected uh injured his Lake Crossing Fleet Street or something. He laid up uh near us. They live quite near us, uh town called Tunbridge and we live at Tunbridge Wells about 10 miles away. And uh naturally enough, I, we asked the mas to

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do and when I arrived, that was only, I'd only contact them when we arrived in um America in Houston. He and particularly his wife, extremely kind to us. As a matter of fact, they uh took us out to dinner and uh gave us some furniture and

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we come in a very difficult situation. Uh not finding a house so very pleasant so that I uh and then our Children got together with uh their Children, the two girls, um two older girls are much the same kind of age or the younger one was

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younger. Than my other girl, too old, my daughter as they were. But we got to know them a little bit like that when they were master of hen. So we knew them socially. A surprise really because, um, I, I wasn't really thinking at that level. I,

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I don't know, snobbish but, uh, it didn't seem to me that, uh, really, that he had quite the stature, which I was anticipating. So it was more surprise. I didn't share this alarm, which a lot of people had, uh, over his record here. I mean, I

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knew what some people had said and new stories and so on. But I had, had no, uh, first hand count of this and the only first hand counter was on the social level, which was, uh, pleasant, but I, I was surprised that they weren't going for

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a kind of a level of a pizza, that kind of thing, which I didn't think we anything much was at that level at all. Despite being president of Chattanooga. How did you account for this decision of the board? You know, do you have any thoughts about

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that? Oh, it seemed fairly obvious they thinking they wanted, uh, someone, um, I mean, to me it then seemed obvious at the time they want somebody on the, uh, the group as it were, um, somebody who knew the town, the town knew them and part and

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parcel of the society of the trustees interact with. Although trust although I know that Mason never had much money. In fact, it was uh he was a poor member of the family. Nevertheless, a kind of kinship thing. So I saw it in that, I saw it

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like a social anthropologist might see it, it was a kind of kinship attraction um that, that kind of thing. So that's how I viewed them. The, the choice. How would uh in, in that context, how would this have affected the uh well, if it had been

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the effect of uh of uh his presidency on rise, do you have any conclusions about that? Well, it's very difficult to abstract one thing from the other. You see, as I think happened to most people, it's difficult to abstract Masterson as a person and as a

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status apart from the, the way in which he was selected. Um and uh the concern there and I uh one didn't think through your question uh to the exclusion of the other one. I mean, you don't sit down calmly and judge it like that. Uh If

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you do, you then start putting down pros and cons you'd have brought money in and so on. But the people didn't think like that or their Children there. I'm sure the trustees thought back, right. But a few others, but most people, you saw this in a

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far more emotional way, this rash. I was wondering if anyone had um or anyone you, you talked to or it occurred to you at the time that, uh, that some of rice's problems might very well be solved by a choice such as this or whether you,

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uh, you didn't see that any of rice's problems, uh, were susceptible to the kind of approach I, I belong to that, uh, group here that, uh, sees rice emerging from regional, uh, reputation to a national reputation and the choice of master seemed a step back to

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the regional, I'm not belonging to the particular region. I don't have any emotional um feelings towards, particularly towards Houston, Texas to compensate. So, I mean, the attraction of rice to me is not because it's a good Texas institution, but because it's a good institution, period and

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it was becoming so and it did seem that what did alarm me at the time was, oh hell, now we're going, now they're going back into uh behind those white walls again, sort of thing. It was that, that was my main concern. I think emotional concern

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that I saw that seemed to be symbolized a uh a step back. It may not have been a correct assessment, but that's how it came up to one. You mentioned that you didn't have any special feelings uh between uh whether the man should be a scientist

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or a humanist. Uh Do you have any feelings about whether he should be emphasizing graduate versus undergraduate or uh uh in this sense that I would not again like to see you, I mean, I think you, you can't ignore graduate work. Now, uh this is part

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of being in the national picture and as following on that kind of uh condition to cut out all graduate programs again, it would be a step back. That's not to say I would prefer to go to the other extreme and ignore the undergraduate. I think it's

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extremely important. As a matter of fact, I don't seem very much distinction between them, but I think both have to exist. I mean, I don't make the big distinction of some people who are graduate work versus undergraduate work. I see the more is a continuum and

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I don't, I don't know what effect master would had on that. I mean, nothing directly. I'm sure I didn't see him in relationship to that kind of question at all. And as for the science humanist, III I don't really care man. Uh Just because I happen

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to be on the human side makes a particular difference here. I just want a good, not say a good man. If he had to be a historian or English professor, I would find the physicist or chemist would do the, he's not an engineer. I have to

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scrub that one off. They're, they're, they're inclined to be too. Uh I don't see the big picture. I got a feeling but you might get some engineer that would, but I haven't got strong feeling that way. Well, then I guess the next thing that happened um

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after your lunch, uh discovery was um the faculty meeting at four o'clock. Uh Allen and Mr Well, Mr Allen, I guess, did most of the talking? I was up there. Is there anything in that meeting stand out in your mind? A lot of things develop. One

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was this uh all I know how to even the system, what came out very strongly to me was the old, the collapse of the old paternalistic argument, you know, or approach, you know, here was poor Kron having to take this meeting. Uh Alan, who was way

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out of his depth the first time, probably the old cliches didn't work. Uh thought it would calm them down. It won't happen again. But, you know, it's quite clear that once it was quite enough, it wouldn't have to happen again. It wouldn't be anybody around to

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happen again. And uh that the sudden uh sort of dawning that another era had been around for the last five or six years, no one had noticed this is what came a very strong, certainly. Uh The other thing was the bad strategy of the administration um

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came over. Um crono with all good intentions. I know him pretty well. He has good intentions to sort of warning us this. Uh if we voted against marson, it would be a bad thing that went down. Well, that lost more votes then the Red cap it

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was, was e Richter getting up making, uh which in other contexts would be a highly comic kind of laudatory acknowledgement of Mason and the board and, and we felt the President and God and everything, you know, that, that if there was any doubt, anywhere in that

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audience, they were swept away by uh by Rich uh getting up symbolizing uh symbolizing the kind of autocratic uh approach. Uh And one felt that, you know, whatever other way they ever handled it, it had been better than what in fact did happen. But it felt

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also that, that uh especially Alan was out of his depth and he shouldn't have been there as it happened. He didn't have much to do with the decision making. Uh I think Lovett was ill or something. And um a nice, pleasant uh man, but out of

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his depth, talking to these people might have, might have worked with his iron foundry workers or managers that didn't work. And you just felt, you know, that just these people living in different worlds, completely different worlds. And um Cronus was more sensitive, of course, to the

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audience reaction, nevertheless, forced to adopt cliches and defend a position which I don't know to what extent he was involved in at all. But you felt also in that whole, that whole meeting that uh if the, if the vote had been taken to the beginning, I

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got a feeling it had been quite different for the end because um it was, in fact, the very speeches defending Marxism that put the votes the other way at the end, kind of slow reaction built up. But even people who are wobbling at the beginning were

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swayed over, that was my own perception of it. Of the time of the various people who spoke that afternoon. Um Did, was there anyone that stands out among the others uh as being in the audience? And of course, there was the, the rather impressive um protest

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of the faculty symbolized by Jack Ward getting up reading out all those names. You see, I think it was because that was the big strong thing that when Crones asked who had written that statement, I think, or at least one had at the back of my

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mind that he was thinking, oh, here's some extreme kind of professors or the very young ones or maybe some graduate students even have caught on that. And when names like Morton Curtis came out, I mean, people who by no stretch of the imagination could we call

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what's called liberal round here or radical but real stayed members and, and, and department head names came falling out, you know, like tombstones as it were. Uh this was very impressive. I think it, it uh it impressed uh Cronus at the time and I think had

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an effect on the audience of 60 names. Uh like that. It's quite impressive. Had the condition uh got over and gotten over in psychology. Have you had a chance to see it before or it was drawn up very quickly? There wasn't very much time to draw

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it up. I'm surprised you got drawn up. Cool. Well, some of the other, uh, speakers that afternoon were, um, well, France merely gave the resume of what the committee had done. And, uh, no, the only deduction you drew from that was that, of course, they were

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just wasting that time. Brother. Did his, uh, did his explanation convey any, uh, uh, any repressed anger or anything of that sort that, uh communicated itself well, his ex, his physical expression was such a kind of pain. I mean, I'd spoken to France over the phone

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anyhow and I knew pretty well what his reaction was and even if I didn't, it's fairly obvious to anybody that people on the committee had, uh, being given, um, a month expression. Um, but when it's ready, been after a kind of white elephant or red herring

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or if you want to call it been wasting their time. I mean, if I'd been on the committee at that time, I'm on the new committee now as definitely. And I keep wondering about exactly. I had to repeat it. So, um, will you be in fact

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doing this again since about four years time? Um, but if I'd been on committee, then I'd have been pretty well annoyed. I end up sort of fool about anything else. Well, uh see, after the meeting was over, were you involved in any other, um, uh, conversations?

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Oh, yes. I mean, it never stopped then until, uh, Tuesday afternoon. And, uh, the next, see, that was a Friday Friday night. I think I was involved at Baker College. A number of associates in the whole college we got together and there were talks there. Dean

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Gordon spoke. He's a member. He's an associate of Baker. Uh, believe he spoke. Uh some of the students spoke and I can't, I can't remember who, who they were now. Um II I may have spoken to. There were quite a number of people there and even

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people who wanted hadn't come across much in Baker. Um Coy, I remember distinctly Ky speaking because he sort of apologized, never had much to do with students, but he felt in this situation sort of aggrieved. He felt this sort of tension mounting. That was the, that

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went on to quite late at night. And then there's all these little informal groups around the camp where you couldn't speak of anything other than that. Everybody was collecting in small groups talking about it. Was there any particular time that uh that you can point to

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is uh is indicating a uh a, a determination that a policy reversal could be achieved with concerted effort? Yes, I think that after Mall had been down here. Uh I'm not sure but they could but so much as the impression that Jolly. Well, had to be

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because by the time that meeting which I was at on in the president's office on the Sunday, which Gordon called, oh, incidentally, there's a sort of background to that. I'm just trying to remember. Let me go on that one while it's still fresh in my memory.

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Um After the Baker meeting Will Dowen uh was a member of Baker and I think I rang him up on the Saturday morning or may have been after Martin had been here on a Saturday afternoon saying, you know, the situation going from bad to worse, we've

00:26:48.650 - 00:27:06.420

got to get together. He'd felt the same way. Apparently he, then I believe he told me that he got hold of Gordon and whether Gordon in fact done something independently, I don't know. So there's a number of concerned, mainly department heads and not exclusively people get

00:27:06.430 - 00:27:21.920

together. And then he rang me back on the Saturday afternoon saying, can you attend this Sunday meeting? And I can't remember what time it was. Three o'clock. I think something like that, which I then did. But I think going back to your question, was there any

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particular time? I don't think anybody asked. Could it be done? Uh, I mean, they didn't see it in the, in, in that kind of, uh, uh, way only that something had to be done to, to, to believe what was, then the place was breaking apart, you

00:27:43.369 - 00:28:00.459

know, and extreme groups were coming forward. Uh Warren Stern had lo uh the president of the students who had a lot to do with them. I was frightened to death that the May sds were going to do. Heaven knows what. And um people were talking of,

00:28:00.469 - 00:28:19.180

some faculty members were talking of strikes and, and so on. So the situation was unbearable uh at that time and uh we couldn't think of taking classes or anything. It would be absurd. So, um I mean, and instruct or talk about it. So if something had

00:28:19.189 - 00:28:37.640

to be done, I think this, this, this, this must be somewhere around the Saturday and the Sunday you mentioned, you mentioned before that uh you did uh have a chance to attend the teach in Saturday morning. Uh Yes, I did. I went to teach in the,

00:28:37.650 - 00:29:01.280

in the gym. Yeah. Yeah. Anything special happened there. Then the question, see Clark Reed spoke, Chandler Davidson spoke. The only thing that addressed me was Jim Castaneda's pro Masterson talk very admirable of him to do it. And I congratulated him after. So I disagreed with him.

00:29:02.180 - 00:29:22.989

Um And an impression was the unanimity of the boat. I think the fact that a huge number of faculty turned up for that, just the fact that it happened like that I think was the impression I got. And then there was the march to the stand

00:29:23.000 - 00:29:50.680

out in your mind that well, the march of course, was the, the orderliness of it. Um, master and talk, which was in effectual one felt, um, I mean, I felt a bit sorry for Marston there. He'd probably been thrown into a lands den there without much

00:29:50.689 - 00:30:07.729

preparation. I didn't know what went on. For example, in the, um Coen house at the press conference. I didn't know what had gone on there. I didn't know at the time, but he came out with a not very powerful megaphone and backed up against the arch

00:30:07.739 - 00:30:35.109

there in front of Lovett Hall. And, uh, I don't think he knew you get the impression of not, oh, that's not what is, um, this sort of would blow away students behaving oddly in other universities and he would, you know, just talk and settle it. I

00:30:35.119 - 00:30:52.770

don't think he came much more prepared than that. And I got a feeling he was a bit taken aback by the intensity of the questions and then there was jean-claude de Bremer. The only thing was the TV, picture in that thing coming up, shaking his fist

00:30:52.780 - 00:31:13.900

of, uh, are you sure that your staying here won't do the university harm? Uh, something like that. And I don't think Marston quite knew how to take the thing. It was the wrong physical situation. One thing, it wasn't above anybody in a, in a physical sense

00:31:13.910 - 00:31:28.079

which might have helped. You couldn't therefore see a lot of people other than the ring. And, uh, he hadn't got this powerful megaphone that somehow looked a bit crazy with a megaphone. I don't know what he could have done. Maybe he gone to the gym or

00:31:28.089 - 00:31:46.849

something and take in some other way and, uh, also the, the glass, the, trying to gloss over, uh, what we, what psychologists would call and impunitive reaction, uh, didn't go down. Well, it was quite obviously a crisis here and just to sort of ignore it or

00:31:46.859 - 00:32:05.400

with the impression of, uh, of ignoring it, uh, didn't go down well, and also he talked to the, uh, the group in a kind of nice to see you all out here, which was, seemed to be inappropriate. Um, because, uh, he was, this overt friendliness wasn't

00:32:05.410 - 00:32:23.400

the right term to strike at all. Uh, he was a matter of concern and the snes behaving like a sort of political rally, uh, idea and, um, it struck me that he either been ill prepared or didn't know how to handle it or, or something, but

00:32:23.410 - 00:32:40.989

it was a fiasco. Is there any possibility that he could have regarded the crowd as part of the welcoming committee or? Uh, I don't know, I don't know what went into his, no, he couldn't have, he'd seen the march coming down and the placards were fairly

00:32:41.000 - 00:32:58.530

obvious and there was a whole group of students there. And if you had any idea of that was just spelled by the first question, do you recall, uh, that the, the hostile questions that were directed to him. Uh, and I don't know whether they were all

00:32:58.540 - 00:33:20.520

hostile or not but, uh, do you have the impression that these were coming from students or from faculty in Milly Ground? Yeah. Mainly students. Maybe too faculty. Perhaps. My, my, I don't think they were very hostile either. As a matter of fact, I think they were

00:33:20.530 - 00:33:40.630

more sort of questioning. Um, but then he did have a long session with the student. So I can't remember when that was now. Well, there was about two hours or so before dinner and then they later on in the evening. Well, did you, uh, see whether

00:33:40.640 - 00:33:55.560

there was there anything else special that happened that Saturday? But, uh, oh, that broke up about two o'clock and then I went home and then, uh, you know, one realized that the situation was, uh, falling to bed. Oh, incidentally we had, what was it on the

00:33:55.569 - 00:34:17.959

Monday? No, it was on a Monday. All right, I'll try that. Now. Um, I went home and then I, I remember talking to, uh, Dowen on the phone and maybe some of my department, but I can't remember the time and then of course it was in

00:34:17.969 - 00:34:38.260

the pathos, uh, that background. Um, so the next thing was this meeting on the Sunday, I think I may have come back to Rice Saturday night, but I can't remember who was. So I did that, uh, where there was some other meeting Saturday night. I think

00:34:38.270 - 00:34:54.270

there was, but I can't remember. The wife said that was a normal man. Well, I'd like to, uh, to get your questions on this, uh, meeting, uh, in the President's. Uh, well, the, uh, I think you must have a account, someone who was there. Do you?

00:34:55.739 - 00:35:27.129

Um, I think I had most of the names but it's about 12 people. The concern was really, what the heck can we do? And um I remember of it, there seemed to be a faction there, small faction was saying, um, something to the effect of uh,

00:35:27.360 - 00:35:49.129

well, let's make the best of a bad job. I mean, you know, uh uh and something and some suggestion, remember rightly of making let Marin be president, but uh maybe a kind of um face president wouldn't have much power. So you go around collecting money and

00:35:49.139 - 00:36:07.810

having another post uh chancellor or something, not, not the present kind of chancellor, uh which would have the administrative power, but this, this was really knocked down by an opposing faction. The point out for one thing of giving up the ghost and, and secondly, couldn't see

00:36:07.820 - 00:36:25.199

it work. So there was quite a discussion on that how it finally got round to the famous questionnaire. I don't know. All I remember is Gordon asking me uh to jot down the departments in humanities, which I did and someone else did science. I think we

00:36:25.209 - 00:36:42.800

finally came around to, to thinking that we've got to get a better uh feeling of what the faculty thinks about it and we do have other than in these groups. Now, Warren Kem was there and he spent some time pointing out that uh you see, you

00:36:42.810 - 00:36:57.370

know, part of the fact of the members of the faculty members, there were more or less saying, well, this is the FBI, go ahead and put up with it. And uh Warren said, well, you're putting me, I think these exact words have put me in a

00:36:57.379 - 00:37:16.159

very difficult position, gentlemen, because I have these extreme students and I'm just trying to keep the lid on them at the moment. Anything like this is not going to do. And uh Don Baker, I think was in geology. And uh oh, I remember the like the

00:37:16.280 - 00:37:38.510

whole uh epithets like um was the head of the John Department, John Adams sort of uh pointing out that he had a conversation with one of the other governors or trustees and uh sort of saying that there are no home regiments now rather nice touch. So

00:37:38.520 - 00:38:02.340

some people had, had some contact with um the trustees. Um Remlinger was there and he pointed out that when he told some trustee and I can't remember who it was or governor, I don't know which one uh that uh was tension or concern on the campus.

00:38:02.629 - 00:38:19.280

The first reaction of this guy had been to say, uh should we call the police? So uh ring. I thought that, you know, there was a different world between the trustees and governors and ourselves. So our main concern was what on earth could we do to

00:38:19.290 - 00:38:37.330

stop the situation from falling to bits? I think this is, this is why we came together. There was a lot of discussion on exactly how the page was falling to bits and um no particular steps were thought of as handling it to wade through the session.

00:38:37.340 - 00:38:52.280

It was quite a long session, maybe about two hours or three hours there. So at least an hour and a half had gone by and no one much idea then had came, the thought that Street Fulton was there and he is a friend of a friend

00:38:52.290 - 00:39:14.770

of Masterson and the street would go to Master on a personal basis saying that he thought that although he had voted for Mason, it would be a bad thing. In fact, Street Fulton's whole attitude of change in these three days on, on this, on this basis

00:39:15.199 - 00:39:32.270

that it would now be a mistake for Mason to come down. And the question was even Jesus Christ wouldn't manage the situation now. So that sort of attitude crept in even to the more conservative members and they weren't very conservative members. I think politically, I mean,

00:39:32.280 - 00:39:54.520

with regard to this uh this uh thing, uh group. And uh finally, I felt we had to have some sort of uh objective declaration whereby we present to the trustees. So, the, the, the questionnaire was, uh, was thought of at that time or the other, um,

00:39:55.560 - 00:40:12.199

all kind of things, uh, considered, uh, as a means of tapping, uh, opinions or did it seem to be the only way we could possibly find it to have a universal one? And, uh, then came problems of how do you get hold of graduate students and

00:40:12.209 - 00:40:32.209

the rest of it? But these were just technical problems. Uh We felt that the meetings had exhausted themselves. Now, there was a department head meeting, um maybe called again by B and I can't remember whether that was, it must have been the next Monday. I remember

00:40:32.219 - 00:40:54.479

going to that one where each department had reported on the situation in his department and that was over uh in the biology building. I think it's that new biology. Yeah, that's right. The new biology, uh hyper that, that must have been on the Monday the, uh

00:40:54.489 - 00:41:21.320

at this time, um, William Gordon was the chief executive of the Pat. We never saw, I don't know where the Patsy was in the whole thing. Sims was at the department head meeting again. I didn't think the PSY was that one. As I say, I really

00:41:21.330 - 00:41:35.000

hadn't seen to Paia since the original faculty. No, he wasn't in the original faculty and he was out of town or something. I just can't remember that. I never saw him much. He wasn't seen to be a factor in the whole thing. He was somewhere else.

00:41:35.330 - 00:41:50.620

In fact, the only time I do remember was ringing him up on the Monday or even the Tuesday saying, look, we, we must have some sort of communication because, uh, things getting the bad, the worse. Yeah. And he said, oh, yes, I had boarding a meeting

00:41:50.629 - 00:42:11.050

but, uh, we could do it for some reason. There was any contact I had with him. Otherwise he wasn't at this particular meeting. Did that seem strange to you at the time? So this meeting wasn't in any way under the auspices of the, it was called

00:42:11.060 - 00:42:38.780

by a number of concerned people and this cut across any other divisions on campus. So it didn't seem strange. No, no. In fact, Gordon. Well, I, I think that since this is privileged stuff, one has felt and had perceived pretty accurately that there had been a

00:42:38.790 - 00:43:00.949

division of the, of the executive committee itself, it was pretty clear that Gordon was disquieted by this whole ton of events, uh, that, uh, Sims and Cronise would almost by definition have to be on the establishment side. And, um, the patsy probably didn't know which way

00:43:00.959 - 00:43:22.120

to turn and, and, uh, and uh, for better of it left the field as they would say in psychology. So they could see which way it might, but that was not my own judgment of it. So Gordon had taken the lead, um, seen the appropriate man

00:43:22.129 - 00:43:43.570

to approach. Uh And so it wasn't an official meeting. There wasn't all members went. Uh I mean all members, all departments went there. There were a lot of department heads but not exclusively some assistant professors, one assistant professor or whatever. Don Baker was at the time.

00:43:43.580 - 00:44:09.790

Maybe he associate or don't know Levy was there, Durden was there, Bourne was there, Leland was there, Remlinger Street Porter came in anyhow. Uh I think is representing the masters. Um Bratton was there, I want to put all these names down an envelope knowing that I'd

00:44:09.800 - 00:44:32.889

forget them. And so no, Minni wasn't out. Cordell was mentioned because he'd had some special contact. I think he was reached on the phone. Someone went out the phone called up. He came up for some, I think it was because he knew Marxism or had some

00:44:32.899 - 00:45:01.489

link with Marson. And so Cordell was not there. I don't think that was reached. Let's see, was then how about the dean of students, Piper? Was he there? I don't think Paul was in on that. No, I had, I I talked quite a lot with Paul

00:45:01.500 - 00:45:20.239

during the time uh who was disturbed also, but I don't remember Paul being at that meeting. It may have been but I, I don't, don't make connect it, but as I say, we're now talking some time ago and if I find this envelope, I'll give it

00:45:20.250 - 00:45:37.020

to you because I put down and also I put the circle in which they were sitting down at the time hoping, you know, my vaness with posterity. But uh I've lost it when the uh meeting came up about the, um the referendum to be held the

00:45:37.030 - 00:45:56.020

next day. Uh Was there very much discussion on how it should be worded or what the uh was? Uh we wanted to keep it simple. We had to do it in two parts. We had to talk about Mason and the situation. Uh, if I remember rightly,

00:45:56.030 - 00:46:12.600

our formulation, which we'd agreed on, there wasn't quite the formulation which it data came out in. That was one thing I was wondering about, uh, how much, how much change there really was. Well, there was an addition of three words in this situation which I don't

00:46:12.610 - 00:46:29.600

remember being the s on, but, you know, there were a lot of talk backs and forwards and, uh, uh, someone then went away to write it down. You see, you know, who that was. I don't know, I don't know how that got added, but it wasn't,

00:46:29.840 - 00:46:44.520

I'm sure it wasn't decided on the meeting. So someone must have got after it and thought we better put those words in or something. Or maybe he thought that it had been decided on, but not to my, to my knowledge. Well, from the standpoint of a,

00:46:44.530 - 00:47:07.199

of a, of an attitude survey, uh, do you think that, uh, the referendum was better worded or more fully worded with that addition. Well, it frankly, it did bias the response in this situation. Someone pointed out, even Jesus Christ couldn't come down. He said little Masterson.

00:47:09.030 - 00:47:23.000

But on the other hand, I think it was almost irrelevant. You see, the question was divided into two things. It, one was the method of procedure and the other was Masterson. But the key thing that in this situation was Mason, the right person or something like

00:47:23.010 - 00:47:41.060

that. Well, is it asked was Martin the right person I think would have had the same votes frankly. Uh It's very difficult, although they were put in two for any person to DV, those two facts, they synchronized together. So in a sense, it was, it seemed

00:47:41.070 - 00:47:56.060

to me that the whole thing was a kind of uh ritual you had to go through to express the concern, but it's pretty darn obvious to anybody going around. So I wasn't too worried. I mean, as professional make it upper questions, it had much to be

00:47:56.070 - 00:48:13.379

desired. But given the attitude going around, it was pretty clear cut. After all, the student was immense and the faculty vote was pretty clear time, although all the faculty were there at that time and since those votes have been taken, the situation had got from bad

00:48:13.389 - 00:48:31.929

to worse. Was it pretty clear by the time this meeting that uh that the way to proceed would be to induce? Oh, yes, yes. That was pretty, you couldn't see that. No one thought that the board would protract. I don't think anybody had that fantasy and,

00:48:31.939 - 00:48:52.689

uh, it was quite clear cut that they could, almost, couldn't. Um, but that Mason might resign, I think, was, was considered how he might be persuaded to resign was not a story. Did you, uh, did you yourself personally think that the vote would be very influential

00:48:52.780 - 00:49:13.449

in getting a free zone? Well, here again, I, I didn't, I didn't know, uh, whether it would, it wouldn't, but I think my own private opinion would, it would have no effect. Frankly, only it's another thing that had to be done. I mean, as surprised as

00:49:13.459 - 00:49:38.149

anybody when Mason did resign, I didn't think he would. What you said that because I didn't think he had perceived the situation with such gravity as it was, in fact happening that he could somehow, uh, it, it would all die down sort of attitude given time.

00:49:38.679 - 00:49:53.800

And indeed he might have, as a matter of fact, it might have died down. You can't keep up that tension for long. Uh, there might have been some extreme, uh, hand thing which I don't know what would have happened, what would have happened. Of course, I

00:49:53.810 - 00:50:11.979

think it just made me a slow attrition. Certain people just quietly look around my own, uh, stuff. I know that, that, uh, it would have been just have been around to somewhere else and that seemed to me the danger rather than the blow up, which would

00:50:11.989 - 00:50:32.189

have been episodic and dealt with no doubt, all plan over. But that people were sort of lost heart and, uh, fished around somewhere else that seemed to be very real, the market situation these days. You can do this. And, uh, unless I think would have happened

00:50:32.199 - 00:51:02.510

that actually I did voice in the department head meeting over at the bar. I put this receipt, four of my faculty leaving. Oh, you know, was going up once you didn't do that, if you just look around and still, I'm, I'm, I'm interested in your comment

00:51:02.520 - 00:51:24.860

that you were surprised that Masterson uh would resign. Uh uh Was this the general feeling at the department or department head meeting? I don't think anybody considered him resigning. I mean, the question didn't arise. The whole concern is what was happening here at Rice and each

00:51:24.870 - 00:51:41.659

department head was reporting there was no, this was preparatory of course to the vote or at least it was if I got my sequence, right? Which I may not have, but I think the vote was on the Monday. Was it not? But I don't know whether

00:51:41.699 - 00:52:02.540

you reported the vote at the time of this meeting or not. Uh We knew each department had had to count up so that he'd know the vote. That's right. No one, no one of course, announced this vote at all. Uh But just by the general impressions,

00:52:02.550 - 00:52:24.439

you you've got some picture of how the vote must have gone, you know, by the amount of concern which they reported in their departments. And uh for example, roach from physics was uh reporting the sort of younger faculty there being very much up in arms and

00:52:24.449 - 00:52:51.300

uh and so on and that, that kind of thing, the vote in psychology go pretty heavily against uh on both issues. You have come in at that time, there were then 7730 members we had in this structure uh without a phd that didn't vote, he couldn't

00:52:51.310 - 00:53:11.149

vote. He wasn't a bloody member of B so it was universal, right? I went in. No, the vote wasn't supposed to have been known. Of course, it was reported in the chronicle. I think it was sort of a straw vote count. Uh Some people have understood

00:53:11.159 - 00:53:30.090

it was fairly accurate uh uh other sequence on the fire. Well, I think that he got this information mainly by pulling. He didn't actually know. I see. I see, but that, that, I don't know something around that nature. I would have been sure. I mean, just

00:53:30.100 - 00:53:58.409

my own judgment of knowing the department heads are concerned, uh that's difficult to pin down, but it didn't surprise me that, that overwhelming rejection. Well, uh with the advantage of, um say, well, i it's almost nine months uh perspective on this. Uh Do you see this

00:53:58.419 - 00:54:18.270

as uh having much of an influence on uh on the rise. Well, the course has been things going on in between. Uh, the situation was left sticking with the trustees and, um, it was only very recently starting to be repaired. So, uh, and then of course,

00:54:18.280 - 00:54:40.330

the financial effect apparently of the alumni and so on had some sort of effect. Um, I don't think we've seen the end of the effect yet in the sense that it probably won't terminate until a new president is chosen because there will still be left to

00:54:40.340 - 00:55:05.949

sort of uh uneasy feeling that this could happen again or, or something similar. And there's been what has had an effect, almost a lasting effect. There's been a kind of polarization between the trustees and the rest. There's been a kind of cementing was for a time.

00:55:05.959 - 00:55:23.229

I think that's probably lasted of the, of the students with the fact that they saw themselves at one on this. Uh There's another effect, of course, just by definition that the place has been more or less leaderless since then, which no one feels is a good

00:55:23.239 - 00:55:44.459

thing. I mean, the fact we've got an acting president now and, and so on, um it's still fairly, one feels fairly, fairly, needless. Um and all the in between things like making four vice presidents or whatever it is. Uh her feeling seem to be part and

00:55:44.469 - 00:56:05.520

parcel of the same consequence really. So it's no use pretending that this hasn't. It's just a one shot deal as it were. Uh, it has, I think had an effect on rice which will last until the new president will come and whacks it out. Do you

00:56:05.530 - 00:56:21.969

have any stronger impressions, uh, or any different impressions of what rice now needs the way the president than you did say before the Mason announcement? Uh, no, I, I think the still the same need still exist. We want a good man that knows how to run

00:56:21.979 - 00:56:45.010

a place and has connections and I still would say has some sort of national reputation. I don't mean he's, he's got to be known from coast to coast, but it has some sort of prestige around the place which we solely need. I'd hate to see a

00:56:45.020 - 00:57:07.909

regional choice or local boy choice even though the man might be good only because uh it may just be reflect by cosmopolitan background. But uh one has the impression that, you know, it's, it's not in Alabama or something uh that we're living in it, that Houston

00:57:07.919 - 00:57:28.580

is a big place and rice has these uh uh ramifications into them. Uh the nation at large and so on. Um I mean, people have heard of rice who encountered them in other parts of the nation and in other countries for that matter, it may call

00:57:28.590 - 00:57:52.250

it the Rice Institute, but they have heard of it. Um So, um you know, it seemed a pity to, to go back uh into what one feels is uh more insignificance of move out. Well, I can see there are cautions in doing this financial cautions. We

00:57:52.260 - 00:58:09.129

had to be careful. I think more on the psychological side. The rest deep side, I think a good uh uh president would bridge this, this kind of gap. I understand what the trustees are wanting, seeing things in the economic sense and hoping that a lot of

00:58:09.139 - 00:58:29.429

the money comes from alumni. On the other hand, I think maybe they've underplayed the uh the federal sources of income, which I thought very considerable. Yeah, in many ways and wane from time to time, but you can't ignore it. And anyhow, any uh discipline these days

00:58:29.639 - 00:58:52.060

is in the grant business in the graduate business, uh which means going across the sort of narrow borders, you see one tied up. The Masterson is I did and I think a lot of other people probably did decision with Pitzer parting shot. My mom was sending

00:58:52.080 - 00:59:16.209

a parting letter to Lovett, which was sent around uh that too, too many Texans thinking regional and not national terms you're saying. And uh Mars kind of symbolized that very direction. That was my impression. I mean, I ignored what had been said about us and being

00:59:16.219 - 00:59:38.149

autocrat and hedge would roll when he comes down and so on. As I say, social, I got along well with him. But the direction which is symbolized seemed to me, uh a radical mistake even though he might bring in local money around the place. Well, afraid,

00:59:38.159 - 00:59:59.280

I don't really have a very clear idea in my mind between, um, the, uh, the distinction between the regional place and the international, uh, or a national reputation. Um, can you clarify that for me? Well, what does it mean to you? Um, I mean, Baylor University

00:59:59.790 - 01:00:26.600

is fairly well known, uh, in Texas, it may be well known in the football in the situation. II, I mean, if it had the affability of Frank Vander, B, I don't think anybody would have uh made such a fuss, but on top of, of not being

01:00:26.610 - 01:00:56.370

well known, not being particularly known as a good administrator, also had the reputation of making trouble and uh stream severity, symbolizing uh lack of student involvement and all this kind of thing uh that finished. So I don't think I could ignore that personality side at all.

01:00:56.379 - 01:01:16.560

So as I say, I wasn't here to, to experience that and I'm going again by hearsay. There's an awful lot of has there on this and it generally came from people uh who you are high use one other expression that I uh I don't uh I'm

01:01:16.570 - 01:01:33.409

not sure I understand uh what is an impunitive reaction? Well, there are three ways of reacting to her frustration. One is to hit back with the psychologist for extra punitive. One is to blame oneself, which is punitive and the other is to ignore that there's been

01:01:33.419 - 01:01:50.020

any frustration, which is impunitive. And that's why I was saying, uh Mason had this bland kind of what's all the fuss about, sort of thing you say, which is one way of dealing with a difficult situation to ignore the difficult situation to redefine it. In other

01:01:50.030 - 01:02:09.850

words, but it had gone beyond the stage where you could do that with any success. Uh I mean, 11 felt that he might still have got away with it by adopting some such attitude as look, uh, there's been a botch up for this whole thing. I'm

01:02:09.860 - 01:02:26.939

sorry about this. Uh Look, what, what, what are you really worried about? Let's get down to it. Marson didn't seem to have that capability of doing, of saying things like that. He played too many roles probably in the past to let the natural creature come out.

01:02:27.919 - 01:02:49.780

Uh, too, too much, uh, politicking had gone on, uh, probably with him to be able to adopt. Probably the only reaction that might have scored for him in his situation. I didn't think he was constituted able to do it. And, uh, he may have been shocked

01:02:49.790 - 01:03:08.060

too suddenly come down and, uh, suddenly find a whole army of faculty and students marching down. So he probably didn't have time to even know how to deal with it. Probably shocked. I don't know, I know his wife was shocked but, uh, the, the sort of

01:03:08.070 - 01:03:21.530

human approach might have got over could have certainly tilted I don't know what he did with the students but it didn't go down. Well, I mean, it must have gotten bad or worse in the school because they only got reports from this summer, from their reports

01:03:23.530 - 01:03:41.639

buddy. Uh, if there had been anybody, sort of might have been slightly favoring him before, it certainly wasn't, after all this had happened, he didn't come to Gilbert at all. Well, on his visit with campus, I've really described at various times, uh uh as a man

01:03:41.649 - 01:04:02.800

with considerable personal charm and even charisma. And I, I was interested in your news as to uh what might explain his, uh his uh inability to uh to handle this situation. Certainly had personal charm. You see his personal charm over which he control the situation in

01:04:02.810 - 01:04:18.229

which it was expressed. You see, you can have personal charm in the Dean's room. It's going to be damn more difficult to face an unruly mob, mob and have your personal charm come over there because you define the situation in the dean's room, you know, more

01:04:18.239 - 01:04:33.699

or less what's going to be said and what's likely to be said and so on. Uh the tea room or the kind of cocktail party charm doesn't work. And yet the cocktail party charm, uh and he had, when you got to know him, I think probably,

01:04:33.709 - 01:04:56.050

um, although I, I feel he belongs to that type where one is 90% role and 10% person but a 10% person. Um, he wasn't a bad person. Quite a, quite a pleasant kind of bloke. As a matter of fact, my first reaction to him, um, and

01:04:56.060 - 01:05:11.340

better who we got to know much better later, uh almost put me up kind of rice because we'd asked them for tea in our English house and he came for tea and we asking a lot of questions about rice because we hadn't been there. My wife

01:05:11.350 - 01:05:28.879

and I, uh and it was a brick wall the whole time with a brick wall. It was the most difficult tea party I've ever exercised. We never got anything out of it. And uh I remember saying my wife, I was my God. They're all like that.

01:05:28.889 - 01:05:45.189

I'm not sure I want to go to this place. She's in um very sort of touchy. A lot of things. So, but when we got here, it was a little different. They, they were much more relaxed and a better, we got to like very much and

01:05:45.209 - 01:06:02.219

uh my wife got to know her very well. Found her a charming person. Bill. I, you know, I met him down the whole house was very affable with, uh, but I never got close to, to really get to know him more than that. And I felt

01:06:02.229 - 01:06:23.330

that outside the role, he was probably quite a pleasant person when you say that somebody is a 90% role and 10% person. Uh, what what, uh, well, what kind of, what, how does this ramify? What does it mean? Never means he never leaves his status. He

01:06:23.340 - 01:06:39.100

was the dean or the master, whatever you met him. I met him in a shower. Probably he'd still be the dean, uh, with all this sort of expectations and the, uh, receptivity of which the status belongs to. I mean, a lot of people like this, I

01:06:39.110 - 01:06:52.330

mean, a lot of people are just walking ghosts, they just roles, they just propped up there by society and you never get to, uh, to know them and you do get to know them. There's nothing very much there other than what society has prescribed for them.

01:06:53.000 - 01:07:09.459

Uh, a lot of people like us and I felt that, uh, probably Masterson, uh, was pretty much like that. As a matter of fact, it wasn't, uh, you'd think twice as sort of coming up to, to master and thumbing him on the back or, or something.

01:07:09.469 - 01:07:26.179

You could only do it in a certain prescribed way and other people have said dogs have got to know him better and of course, this is a, a function of how much, you know, a person anyhow. But, um, they paid the roller quite well. But, uh,

01:07:26.260 - 01:07:52.280

would this be someone who is generally an unhappy individual or? Uh, yeah, it becomes a security thing that it's, uh, there's more certainty in the role structure than there is in the personal one. Some people find there are different types. Some people find it easy to

01:07:52.290 - 01:08:12.899

drop their role and go off, be an ordinary human person. Other people difficult carried over, find difficult to leave. I felt with him probably he might find it difficult to leave. What, uh, uh, having this view of him. Uh, what are some of the things? How,

01:08:12.909 - 01:08:31.148

how would you expect him to behave as a president to say it rise if he had, uh, come here under different circumstances or? Oh, I think he'd have been hellishly autocratic. There's no doubt about that. Uh, uh, he'd have done all sorts of things properly. Um,

01:08:31.159 - 01:08:49.669

he didn't brook any, any interference very much. Uh, I mean, there would be only two ways of reacting to Mars and one people would say yes and other people leave. I, I think we have difficulty, uh, with him. I mean, I was anticipating just in my

01:08:49.680 - 01:09:08.750

role as chairman probably, I don't know what his at towards that card. It wasn't very promising, judging from some of my colleagues that have been here before. So I could see fun and games going to start from that. Um, and again, what had hurt the reputation

01:09:08.759 - 01:09:25.490

that he would say yes, you know, to you. And then something else would happen after. That's even more tricky. Of course, when someone does that you never know, um, where you are with them. But, um, this kind of reputation he had, he said how would you

01:09:25.500 - 01:09:41.529

expect an individual like this to react with the, say, uh, in his relation to the board? What, what would you expect Masterson to, uh, to do in any controversy between himself as president and the board? Oh, I think he'd have gone along with the board. My

01:09:41.540 - 01:10:04.390

own reading of it. See, partly socially because he was the younger chap of the, the younger, sorry, the poorer member of the family. Uh There was a big snobbish, valid uh aspect of Masterson. It's pretty obvious knowing him. I mean, the difference that he gave to

01:10:04.399 - 01:10:24.140

me in England, even though I was his would have been his subordinate coming over here was part because of this image that a lot of people do have of England. A lot of people snobbish about England in this country. And um it's, it's a social status

01:10:24.189 - 01:10:41.899

kind of thing. And uh in this case, uh I feel he would have been, um he wouldn't have been the man who stand up against the ball, that's for sure. I see him fighting any, any faculty battles. So he had been too glad to be put

01:10:41.910 - 01:11:00.759

in the position. And indeed it was the nasty kind of feeling. That's exactly the reason you've been chosen, you're saying. OK, so all these things are prejudices on one's part. Uh One likes to think that analysis is correct. If you don't know, you can't test it

01:11:00.770 - 01:11:21.029

out, wasn't any interpret certain situations. And then whether you're on the inside or the outside of the situation makes a difference. The boards perceive the choice as the best for Rice in terms of alumni and so on. And the faculty on the outside the decision, see

01:11:21.109 - 01:11:40.939

in another sense. So when I say that he was chosen because he would be a yes man, they see it chosen because he'd be good for getting money. Who's right? I don't know. Or a middle in each Doctor Williams. I really appreciate the uh your generosity

01:11:40.950 - 01:11:59.339

with your time this afternoon. Do you have any uh summarizing uh uh comments to make on this whole uh uh affair that uh I haven't tapped with questions except I don't think it's finished yet. Uh The committee that you're on now, is it pretty active uh

01:11:59.350 - 01:12:27.589

or is it in a state of limbo or uh or we're active? Have you had meetings with the board's counterpart of the presidential search committee? Right? To begin with, we met with Lovett and Teague. Um It was kind of makeup meeting as it were uh pretty

01:12:27.600 - 01:12:47.589

much one sided that conversation as a matter of fact. Um But our task was to look at names which have been sent to us, send up some names, which we've been doing. We haven't met since. Are you aware of any uh deep differences of opinion in

01:12:47.600 - 01:13:14.259

the uh uh in the aspirations arise between state members of the committee and uh Teague and love. On the other hand, uh, I, I find it difficult to answer that because Lava gave his pen picture of what he wanted to see of the president, which has

01:13:14.270 - 01:13:29.569

now not been reflected at all. And the names come down to us. I mean, the names that I've seen listed so far, uh, all of which seem admirable. Uh, as a matter of fact, any one of those names would be admirable, didn't add up to the

01:13:29.580 - 01:13:45.220

picture that, that Robert drew at that meeting about whether he had second thought or not being concerned with the names. He himself had been concerned with the name sent down. I don't know. But in the deeper sense, it's, it's uh I, I'm sure that, I mean

01:13:45.229 - 01:14:01.160

that the faculty have one image and the trustees see another image, but um it doesn't necessarily mean a head on conflict as it is in ma and because each are aware, each group are aware that um both sides have to be reconciled in, in some way.

01:14:01.830 - 01:14:22.310

And um I, I'm more, I'm more optimistic that there's a sort of tolerance given now from one side to the other than there would have been before. Well, before I never, I don't think even had entered the trustee's mind. You would need to, to seek faculty

01:14:22.319 - 01:14:41.660

and learn students, you see, and that this is something that is so foreign to their thinking uh as, as uh corporation bosses, you, you don't care about asking your managers, you know, you need in, in charge here. This is something you decide you see. And since

01:14:41.669 - 01:15:01.500

they, one feels that they look upon it like a business, uh, corporation business, that, uh it's a shock to them to, to perceive that uh, it mattered you or that, that it was felt that they had some sort of say in the matter, I don't know

01:15:01.509 - 01:15:16.819

quite how they saw the function of the committee. And this is, uh because that doesn't quite why I set up a committee in that case, except as traditional. But um I'm sure that's how they perceived it. And now they, they sort of realize that I feel

01:15:16.830 - 01:15:39.109

that they realize that uh they like it. But uh I know that's the way things have changed or something. But uh Sarah more optimistic of that side, but who knows, I would not predict anything at this stage of the game. As I say, I don't until

01:15:39.120 - 01:15:58.970

we find that new president and his choice, the nature of the man, the master story hasn't finished. You use the expression names sent down. Now, are these names that the board has given a committee to consider or I see what's up, you see some names were

01:15:58.979 - 01:16:19.609

sent up? I mean, there's no secret that there some means we're sent up, which indeed had been generated. A proud of Mars and some names been sent down uh coming presumably to trustees on the board or something. And, uh, we've looked at these names and, uh,

01:16:20.500 - 01:16:39.830

find out bits of information about these people and wrote out some comments which we got from various people who know them personally and sent them there. Well, it's, um, pin picture of the kind of present he won, I think, first of all, he, I mean, he

01:16:39.839 - 01:17:07.839

ST a young person and the names generated haven't been particularly young in ranged all the way around. I think he, I think very rightly he saw in regional terms and uh again, uh the name generated so far I have people all over the place. Um He

01:17:08.870 - 01:17:27.609

then hadn't said that you need be a administrator and a great number of the names generated are the instruments. But then I don't think love's been in on that uh on those names. You see that, that's been teak side. So I don't know how they all

01:17:27.620 - 01:17:32.149

sorted out that end at all. No, I don't know. Love has been a way doing that for summer.