00:00:06.000 - 00:00:27.000

David Salas: If y’all heard that, it was a cat. Isabella Bourtin: You might hear my dog in the background, so no worries. David Salas: Yeah, yeah. Isabella Bourtin: Okay. Annesha, are you good? Okay. So my name's Isabella Bourtin. I'm a junior at Rice University, and I'm a researcher on this project.

00:00:27.000 - 00:01:58.000

Annesha Dey: My name is Annesha Dey. I'm also a junior at Rice and a researcher on this project. And if you want to introduce yourself, David. David Salas: My name is David, last name is Salas, the interviewee here. Isabella Bourtin: Alright, David. So first would you mind telling us a little bit about your tribal affiliation, where you were born, where you grew up, and some stories from your childhood? David Salas: Okay. I was actually born at home in my grandparents' house later as it goes. Back then you had to take the child to a hospital in order to get a birth certificate and all. So they state my birth date was 9/17 of ‘67. I'm sure the year is correct we're not altogether sure whether they actually got the exact date right, because me being born at home and then taken to the hospital a couple of days later, I did grow up with my grandparents in Waxahachie, Texas. They were both Kiowa, Native American, of course. My grandmother was a very, very quiet person.

00:01:58.000 - 00:06:46.000

David Salas: How could I say it? Very stoic. When she spoke, you listened, of course. My grandfather was totally a flip of the coin. As I grew up, I did notice that my grandmother literally ran everything from the farm to bank accounts, everything. I mean, she was the matriarch of the family and my grandfather was totally fine with it, and that's the way I grew up. Actually, my wife does everything as far as bank accounts, everything. It's exactly the same relationship. So yeah, we get along very well, needless to say. Back during my childhood, I did grow up with three brothers, or uncles … after I reached the age of 12 and it was disclosed to me that I was the nephew, not the brother. David Salas: It was great. We had quite a bit of property. We could go hunting, grandparents or my grandmother would say, “Hey, we have this going on this week. Can one of you guys go out hunting and bring a couple of rabbits home” or whatever have you at whatever she wanted basically. And we would go out and do so and come home and she would put together this big nice dinner. She was also, she would tell me that her name was Hawk, or her last name was Hawk. During the census, and I have some records, during the census back in 1940, I want to say if I'm correct here. They put her name down as Galivan, basically saying, well, basically if you do the Spanish version, Galivan would be Hawk. David Salas: I also have some pictures and stuff of them. I have no clue. And she never ever spoke of her parents. I believe that to be, because from what I understand, they did go to an Indigenous school or a school for Natives. As they say. There is a picture, and I have not found it yet, but I am looking, of her and my grandfather and she is in a big kind of Spanish looking dress with all the, oh, how would you put it? All the lace and all that stuff. And it's black and it's got the peacock feather thing on her hair, and she looks totally disgusted. My grandfather is literally dressed in a long tailed suit with a top hat. Looks like Lincoln. David Salas: I had seen this picture early on in my childhood and asked, and the answer I got was “that was another time. I do not wish to discuss it, but I don't want to talk about it.” So basically I left it at that. Back to the brothers, or uncles. One of 'em was the youngest is, well, let me start. My grandmother is named Dolores Galvan. My grandfather's name is Philip Ramirez. And both of those names, from what I understand, Philip and Dolores were given names to 'em about the same time in history. Of course, you had the Philippe and Dolores of Spain, which were royalty. So I am kind of putting the connection together, but I think that's what it was.

00:06:46.000 - 00:12:45.000

David Salas: Let's see. Okay, back to the brothers or uncles as we would put it. One of 'em was little Phillip that was the youngest. He was closer to my age. The next would be, let's see, they called him Baca or Vaca, which translates to cow, but everybody called him Little Bull. This guy stood about 6’ 2”, 6’ 3”. Very big, big, big guy. Then we move on to, let's see, I had an aunt by the name of Janie, another uncle after her was, his actual name on the census is Lupe, but everybody knew him as Black Bear. He was another very large guy, very, very large. And then my mother, which her given name, from what I understand, is Blossom, after the census and going through, I guess getting IDs and doing all that stuff … in the census they got her down as Blossom and Blasa with a V - Valsa, but her name is legally Blossom Salas, and that is my actual birth mother. Let's see. David Salas: Yeah, so I mean there were so many stories going on around in my head right now. One would be, as a young man, my mother or grandmother, the one I grew up with actually dip snuff. And she would send me down to the creek. And in the creek there was this large wall and you could see the different layers of sediment and clay. And there was one layer that I would go at least twice a week to the creek to get her a pinch and wrap it in plastic. And she would literally put the snuff into a pinch of that clay and that she would literally ingest it, or I wouldn't say ingest it, but chew on it. And she said that it helped with her … she had rheumatoid arthritis. Of course all of us do. Evidently I do. I think it said that 99% of all Natives either have it. So anyway, she said it helped her with that and that it was the dirt. And now that I think back on it, it kept her alive. I mean, it helped her, I guess physically because of the minerals in it really and truly now that we're 2024 and we understand all these things. But in 1970, ‘74, somewhere in that area that she would know this of course speaks to how she grew up and the things that were passed down to her. David Salas: Yeah, there's several stories like that, just odd little things that going back now you think is odd, but really and truly, it was spot on. She would make tea from a mesquite bush and also said that that helped her arthritis and inflammation in her hips and her shoulders. I wouldn't suggest anybody try it, it's just something that I remember. I remember also going to school, I guess I went to kindergarten, first grade, second grade, and third grade with living with them. And I was taught some words here and there, but always prefaced by do not speak this language at school and never ever tell anybody that you're Native. David Salas: Of course, that kind of stuck. And then I got to the age where I was actually able to go with my grandfather to the feed store, to the grain mills and stuff like that. And again, was told “anybody ever ask, you are Hispanic or Mexican,” never divulged that you are Native because you, or we would be treated worse than the Black Americans or in the town that we lived in Waxahachie at the time that we would be treated worse than they were treated. And it was kind of funny because I wouldn't say funny, really disturbing because even up until about ‘74, ‘75, none of the schools there in that little town were integrated.

00:12:45.000 - 00:19:22.000

David Salas: And I was probably one of two darker colored skin kids in the whole school. So yeah, very odd. Let's see. And she always, I wouldn't say always, but when I would get in trouble or she was trying to give me direction or something of that nature, she would say “aishta” a word I loosely translated in the Kiowa language, loosely I say, is motherless child. And she always followed it up with a hug of course and a kiss on the forehead. But I mean, looking back at it now, it was an awesome childhood. It really was. It really, really was. Being able to hunt, I was given a .22 rifle at 10 years old, and we'd go rabbit hunting and stuff and we would eat everything we would kill of course or hunt down. And she was an awesome cook. David Salas: And also she never spoke. If she wanted something, she would kind of point you in the right direction with her chin go, and that's who she was. So yeah, very, very interesting. During that time, I did come to know my mother and moved to Waco with my mother. I guess I was 13 or 14 years old at the time. Again, nobody really spoke of being Native. It was something that even my uncles were very aware of at the time. I guess growing up, nobody really talked about it. There were some words used around the dinner table that were Native. I couldn't really tell you what they were, I just remember ‘em. But other than that, outside the home in business, like I said, going to the feed lot, buying seed that we were going to plant that year or anything like that, yeah, nobody ever spoke about it. Nobody, none of my uncles, nobody. I mean, it was just, that was the time. And I guess that growing up, I have spoke to other natives and it was a thing nobody wanted to unquote ‘be Native’ during that time. From what I understand, it was well after the forties into the, I would say mid to late eighties before anybody would really say, “Hey, yeah, I'm Native.” David Salas: So yeah, it was just odd, strange, I guess looking back on it. But let's see. So like I said, I did move back with my mother. She was divorced at the time from my father. On my, let's see, maternal side, which was the parents that I grew up with or grandparents. I still call 'em mom and dad. They were Kiowa. I have a couple of pictures that, like I said, showed them around a school or it looked like a school. I couldn't tell you that that's exactly what it is, but it looked like an old school and they were young at the time. I'll try to get those put together in a PDF and share 'em with you guys. So if y'all want to put 'em into the system, that would be great. David Salas: Let's see. So where was I going with this? Yes, so on my maternal side, they were Kiowa on my paternal side. My grandmother was Lipan Apache, her last name before marriage was Hinojosa. From what I understand, I have spoken to the Lipan Apache tribe, which she is, I believe she was a member of as far back as we can see. I actually did several hours at the state of Texas library next to the Capitol here in Austin. I actually live in Bastrop, so I'm not too far. So I spent a lot of hours there, did a lot of research from what I understand. And so she was Lipan. I couldn't, could not specifically say with my grandfather on that part of the family. My grandmother or her first name was Petra. We called her Mama Petra basically. I did spend quite a bit of time with her during the summers. She was, for lack of a better word, very odd.

00:19:22.000 - 00:24:07.000

David Salas: After sundown, we could not visit her after sundown or we would have to leave her home after sundown. And she lived on my uncle's property. And it was probably two or three city blocks, of course, within walking distance in the country. But as we grew older, from what I understood, not from her, but from my uncle and my father, she was somewhat of a, the Mexicans call 'em curanderas, we call her a medicine woman for a better word, for a lack of word for it. I know there are not many in the tribe from what I understand as far as Apaches are. They're always medicine men. David Salas: But from what I understood, she was always fighting evil and trying to win. So there was a lot of odd things always going on around her house, especially you could visibly see the nervousness, the agitation, once the sun started setting and she would make us go home. She lived by herself as she got up in age, I believe it was in 1986, she had gotten sick, a laceration or something on her leg. She lost her leg. We brought her home. She died in her home. My uncle evidently had a friend that was a district judge, and again, sounds very odd, but we buried her leg. We did not bury her. David Salas: He got with the judge, the judge allowed it, and we went to her home. I can remember my mother and my other aunts cleaning the house. When I say cleaning, they were just sweeping, putting everything where she had it. And my father and uncle proceeded to, everybody walked out. They proceeded to walk around the house with gasoline and they burned the house with her hip. Nobody was, we could not take anything. No pictures, no mementos, nothing was taken. Yeah, so basically they cremated her remains with the home. It was, yeah, it was something that stands in my mind of course like it was yesterday. It really does. David Salas: But again, they're the beliefs of how she grew up and what she wanted. So of course, my father and uncle did what she asked. Let's see, another thing too, we were always told when somebody died in the family, you were not to be remorseful. We didn't speak their names for a week or two. And to this day, again, something being instilled into a way of life. I'm still the same way. My mother passed away about 10 years ago, and she was cremated, but nothing was ever spoke. Nothing was ever, we had to get together with the family and basically the only people after me and two brothers, and it was a little odd, but just being that they were my nephews at one time, and now they're from brothers.

00:24:07.000 - 00:30:19.000

David Salas: Yeah. But it was, again, something being instilled. That's just who we are at this point. Nobody cried, nobody said anything, basically. Hung out for a little bit, talked amongst ourselves, had a cup of coffee, and that was basically the end of it at that point. Let's see here. So yeah, that's basically, we lost her, my mother. So now it's just me and my three brothers. I'm sorry. I have an older brother. Oh boy, I want to say he's, I'm 58 already, so he's going to be about 67 at this point. So yeah, it was just a very odd thing on Mama Petra's side. David Salas: Again, growing up in central Texas, I get it a lot, even as a younger man in school, a lot of the kids would say, Hey, you talk like the guy on the news. What is that about? And I would tell 'em, Hey, I guess because I'm educated, I don't know what else to tell. You've been asked, Hey, you don't have an accent. And it's like, well, if you tell me where you got yours, I'll go buy one. But at this point, I don't have one, so I don't know what to tell you. I don't normally engage with people and tell 'em, “Hey, I'm Indigenous,” or “Hey, I'm Apache or Nade.” And so it's not something, again, stemming I guess from being told so many times. Don't let anybody know. Don't let anybody know. David Salas: I'll get around people at powwows and stuff like that. I know Mr. Gonzo Flores, he is the medicine man for the Lipan tribe, a very nice guy. Talked to him several times just via Facebook and stuff like that. I've also talked to Lucille Contreras that is the head of the Texas Buffalo Project. Again, not personally or anything, and she's not that far away. She's probably 60 miles away from me, if that, but I spoke to her on Facebook and stuff like that, just back and forth once or twice. But very, very nice people, very inviting for someone that doesn't have a tribal number myself, I've been looking into it, trying to establish communication with the Lipan Tribe from my paternal grandmother on the maternal side with the Kiowa tribe. I've tried over and over again and nothing, I don't get as much as a, “Hi, hello, who are you? Why are you calling? Why are you talking to us?” Anything of that nature. And what I've seen is there's a lot of what we would call gatekeeping going on, “Hey, you're not, you don't have a number now, so why are you even talking to us?” And Gonzo, Mr. Flores actually, and what is the other guy's name? I can't remember his name, but he also, both of them. Very nice guy. And they were like, you're not the only one that was told that as a child, especially in the seventies and sixties. I mean the seventies and eighties, a lot of us were told that. And a lot of us being from South Texas picked up the, I guess you would say Spanish language. I know it because I took it in school, but what I speak in Spanish, some of my neighbors that are from Mexico have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. So it's a little odd. David Salas: But yeah, I'm just trying to get to where my, I have two sons. I also have a daughter that is 16 and she's doing a multidisciplinary school. She's going to high school and college at the same time. And we're crossing our fingers to get into A&M, which are, grades are impeccable, but I think everything's going to work out there. But they've heard these stories of mine over and over again. Of course, as we get older, we tend to equate everything with what happened before and how things are going now. And let's see, where else. Little Bull, which was my closest uncle or brother, he was like one of them guys that's bigger than life. He was a truck driver.

00:30:19.000 - 00:36:23.000

David Salas: He would tell me stories about being out on the road, going through the reservation and stuff like that, and meeting with people that right away would know that you're not Mexican, you're one of us, and all these stories and all that stuff. And I thought it was just so really neat. But then again, after the stories, it was like, don't tell anybody. I can remember also my grandmother and being in tow, and we would go to, what is Oak Cliff, Texas, which is just outside of Dallas or it used to be a suburb, it is Dallas now. There were stores all along that area where we would go and shop on occasion because Waxahachie, only sits maybe 20, 25 miles outside of Dallas. And we would go there to shop and we would run into people, and it was the oddest thing. My grandmother would run into another lady and they would just look at each other and nod. David Salas: And I asked my grandmother at one point in time, what is that? Do you know her? I said, oh, no, but she's one of us. And it was like, wow. But nobody would literally verbally say anything. It was very odd. But that was one of those things that you would see all the time when we would go into that area. From what I understood that a lot of the people that were in these schools and people that were moved from the reservation, and I'm not sure, but I believe there was some kind of thing going on where the government would give 'em an allotment of money or something and say, ‘Hey, move off the reservation and here you go, see if you can make it. Here you go.” If I remember correctly, because I did some research on it too. And these were the people that we would see or run into. And again, it was just walk right by each other and just a quick nod to each other and that was it. And it was really odd because I literally had seen a gentleman and a lady, a couple, across the road from us at the time, and it's like my grandmother and father or my father and mother literally stopped in their tracks. These people stopped in their tracks and all four of 'em nodded at each other. And then we go on about our business, like I said, again, very odd. David Salas: But yeah, I'm just trying to think of anything else. There's so many little things. Like I said, the Little Bull or the Vaca as they called him, as my grandmother would call him, everybody else knew him as Little Bull, just a great standup guy. I remember he actually died of liver failure. He liked the bottle. And my grandmother told him many, many times, son, our bodies cannot handle the white people's liquor. It's going to kill you. It's going to kill you. And it did, it did just that. So yeah, it's things like that. I actually have a brother that I repeated that story to, and he also, he drank. Good guy. I mean, absolutely salt of the earth. He would do anything for you, but he literally had to go through a liver transplant. He's still alive today, but unfortunately, it is just one of those things being Native, our bodies are just not the same. David Salas: Let's see, I do have two sisters. They have passed. One of 'em died of the, oh, back in about 2009 from complications of the swine flu. It took my youngest sister, Linda Lou, my older sister Gloria actually passed away. She had stomach cancer and she passed away not too long ago. Why I say not too long ago, I hate to sound like an old guy, but you get to be pretty close to 60. You think it just happened yesterday and it wasn't. It's been about 6 years ago. But yeah, just all these little things combined being told, “Hey, you can't tell anybody you're Native,” being taught a couple of words here and there. And then again, being told, “Don't tell anybody, don't tell your teachers, God forbid, don't tell anybody at school.”

00:36:23.000 - 00:40:37.000

David Salas: But then again, like I said, thinking back on it, that those were the times, those really were the times. Gonzo, Mr. Flores, from the Lipan Apache tribe, he acknowledged, yeah, it was a thing. It was a thing. And I'm sure other people would acknowledge the same thing. It was a thing. And yeah, so now I'm trying to get my daughter into A&M, married to a beautiful young lady, going on, well, we just had our 20th anniversary in September. Like I said, I have two older boys. One, the oldest one I had very, very young. I was 20 years old. David Salas: Yeah, I am a automotive painter, aircraft painter, whatever you want to call it. I've done both during my career, but was very young, married my first wife, and that's where my two older boys come from. And so he is what, 38? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now I have a daughter of that’s 16. Yeah. But it's little things that even her and my two boys and her, of course, without even saying anything, my daughter was asked not too long ago, and I was with her, “What church do y'all go to?” And she says, “I don't go to any church. I'm actually in church every single day.” And the person kind of gave her a really odd look, and she says, “Look up around you.” David Salas: And at 16 years old, without me having to ever told her anything of that nature really shocked me. But again, I think it's something that she knows I'm Native. I told her all the stories, of course and everything, and she adheres to it. It really, unfortunately, she's a little like me and my grandmother. My wife is white, by the way, and after about 15 minutes into a car ride, she's ready to explode. Why is not anybody talking? Well, we normally don't talk a lot, so it kind of throws her off a little bit. But unfortunately, my daughter seems to be the same way. She doesn't talk very much, but thinks quite a lot. That's something which I'm proud of. My sons are the same way, very stoic. David Salas: One funny thing is that my father, he spoke about the Lipan tribe and my grandmother, and he had this very odd way of speaking, and I call it odd, just because he was always direct to the point end, of story. His sentences might contain four to five words in total. And my brother speaks just like him today. I was just on the phone with him a couple of days ago. And I mean, if I didn't know I was speaking to my brother, I would think it was my father. He's the same way. Anything, you ask him a question, I'm trying to have a dialogue with him. And on the phone, he speaks three or four words in silence.

00:40:37.000 - 00:45:36.000

David Salas: Very odd. But that's just like I said, again, this is the way we grew up. These are things that were done and said, growing up on the farm in Waxahachie there with my grandparents, I think was a very wonderful thing. Showed me a lot and made me who I am. I guess being that my siblings were raised in kind of Waco area, it was just a little different. I always had what people say, “Hey, you sound like an old country hick.” It's like, well, okay, I guess I can see that. But that's where I grew up compared to some of these, some people that literally live in the bigger and raised in the bigger towns. They get this slang that they speak and all that stuff. And I guess that's why I was always asked or told, “Hey, you sound like the guy on the news. What is this about? You're brown, why aren't you? David Salas: Where's your accent?” And all that stuff. But yeah, I mean, some of the family was from Cameron, Texas, Waxahachie, Texas, Hillsborough, Texas. My grandmother was actually from Mercedes, Texas down in the valley. So just kind of all around, I guess. And we did have quite a few that joined the military. I personally did not, or none of my siblings did either. But we have cousins and stuff like that that all did go into the service or veterans if they did come back. So yeah, I think Sutherland, Texas too. There's family there. Let's see, Weatherford, Texas, we have family members there also. David Salas: So yeah, we all kind of lived in the area. We would all get together maybe once a year. The women in the family, especially on the maternal side, were all very strong women from what I understood as a kid of that age. They ran everything. And like I said, again, that's the way I grew up. That's the way I treat my wife. I had a neighbor, they're from Mexico. She came over, she says, “Hey, can I ask your wife to go with me into town?” It's like, why are you asking me for? I said, “She's her own person, dear. I don't know. No, you go ask her. If she wants to go, she can go. I cannot tell this woman where she goes or where she does or who she talks to. That's not who I am.” David Salas: Totally blew her mind, by the way. But yeah, it's just all these little oddities. Again, going back to being Native and being raised, I wouldn't say being raised Native, but being raised with that background and that mentality, I guess is where I am today. And really just trying to find out, well, I know where I belong, but try to, the Lipan Apache tribe has had some trouble with their enrollment. Like I said, the Kiowa tribe, I cannot even get a hello from these guys, but I'm working on it. And oh, just one minor note, we went to the Mescalero reservation, it's been about four years ago, and I was talking to a young lady there because I actually have an uncle that lives there, and he acknowledged who I was. Never would talk to me, but we were talking through this lady that worked at the tribal office there on the Mescalero reservation.

00:45:36.000 - 00:50:50.000

David Salas: And she says, “I actually know him.” And it's like, okay, well great. “We're taking vacation. We're going to come through there. You could let him know. Give him my phone number. I would like to speak to him.” Within a couple of days, I got a phone call back from the lady and she says, “Well, I did talk to him. He does not want to see you or does not want to talk to you.” And I said, “Did he explain why if he acknowledges that I am his nephew?” And she said, “Well, on the reservation, they try to keep who they are intact. He said, you coming here with your white wife in your new car, and they'd rather not let their kids see what is on the outside.” And I took it with a grain of salt. It was like, yeah, okay, I can understand that to a certain extent. David Salas: So we left it at that. So I do have relatives that live on the reservation, but again, it's just those are their wishes. So we respected 'em while we were there. We literally stopped to get gas, and it was the funniest thing I ever seen. I turned around, my wife and my daughter got out of the car, and I turned around and told my wife, I said, “Take just a couple of seconds and look around.” And everybody that was literally around noticed me. And then her and everybody just stop all around us. And everybody was just looking at us like, “Oh my God, are you serious?” It was a little unnerving at the same time, but it was, again, akin it to the times where we would be in Dallas on the street and we would run into somebody and they would just kind of nod, look at you and go on about their business. David Salas: But it was very odd when I got out and started putting gas in, and then my wife got out of the car and it was like, “Oh my God, white person.” But we were on the reservation. So I guess I can see it, but even to this day, I find it a little odd that people are still that way, but at the same time, they're trying to preserve who they are as a people. And I totally understand it, and I get it because I want to pass that down to my daughter. And it really doesn't mean a tribal number to me or anything of that nature of being recognized. I have the stories, I have, the way I grew up and all that. So really, I would like to see it happen so my daughter could be recognized, but when it all comes down to it, it is what it's, and we've lost contact and stuff with family members that are tribal members, or I wouldn't say lost contact. I mean, they literally just died, kind of after that. And people not wanting to recognize that they were Native. Like I said, again, in the seventies and eighties, a lot of that just fell apart. Nobody wanted the number back then. Nobody wanted to be affiliated with a tribe. David Salas: And where we are now, I think a lot of people like myself are looking to find out where they come from. So that's kind of where we're at. And I don't know if you can see this picture, but this is a picture of my grandmother and grandfather. It's kind of a bigger picture. I don't know if you can see through the glare. Oh, that's too much glare, but I'll send this picture and the other picture, when they were in the school, evidently again, the picture that I cannot find is basically he's dressed up like Abraham Lincoln and she's dressed up some, oh, Spanish princess or something. It's very, very odd. They did not like that picture, but from what I understand that it was a picture that was taken from the school that they were going to as young adults and as they were getting out, they married there within the school, and of course it was Catholic, and that's what they gave them to dress.

00:50:50.000 - 00:53:23.000

David Salas: Not to jump around on the stories, but once I seen the photo a couple of times, my grandmother just does not like that photo at all. She was very, and you can tell in the pictures, once I send them to you, you could see the disgust on their face. They were very upset about it. So yeah, I'm kind of talked out, I guess. I don't have any other, I could think of a million little stories, but they're all about hunting and stuff like that with my uncles and stuff. And that kind of gets no pun intended, but in the weeds of what the narrative here. So yeah, that's where we're at. I will send these in a PDF to one of you guys, and if y'all can get it and look at 'em and see what y'all want to use or what you don't want to use, that's fine. David Salas: Yeah. I also have some census stuff that we looked up at. There was a young lady at the Capitol Library, and if I'm correct, all I knew her by is her first name. And every day I would walk in, she would come over and she helped so much. I mean, I got tons of paperwork as far as the census are concerned, all the way back to the mid to late 18 hundreds on where the Lipan Apache were being housed and where they were at, where they were living, all that stuff. Not too long ago, up toward the panhandle, they found the graveyard, of course, and a tribe took it over, and they're making a park out of it and all that stuff. So, all that, she was great. She was great. Yeah. Helped a lot. Yeah. Any other questions? Isabella Bourtin: Thank you so much for sharing all of that. I feel like I know you so well now. This has been so great. I love it, David Salas: Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:53:23.000 - 00:55:28.000

Isabella Bourtin: Oh, sorry, what? David Salas: Go ahead. Go ahead. No, I'm sorry. Isabella Bourtin: Hearing you talk, there was one big thing I was really curious about. What was that shift like from it being that you need to hide your Native identity, that it needs to not be talked about into something now that you're willing to talk about and you're open about and you want to share. What was that like? Was it a social shift? Was it a cultural shift? What was that shift? David Salas: I think really and truly it started happening to me personally I guess when I was about, I want to say about 30, I started getting that longing to figure out where these stories that I was told as a young man, where they came from, what was the root of my ancestors, of course, my grandmother and grandfather. And then knowing that they went to one of these schools after reading about it in history and stuff like that in school, and just knowing that they were subject to that. And once I got to about 30, 35 years old, I guess it's more of a legacy to share with. Of course. Like I said, my kids have heard all the stories, and my wife has heard all the stories. One thing that was very odd, my mother came to visit us before she died, and we were sitting at the dinner table and we started eating. And this goes to how it was like for her also, and the words that came out of her mouth that day embarrassed me so bad, but she literally said, “Oh my God, I'm sitting here eating with my hands like a dirty Indian.”

00:55:28.000 - 00:57:33.000

David Salas: So yeah, it's crazy. But that's the way things work, and it's just, yeah. Isabella Bourtin: Thank you so much for sharing that. That's so interesting. I feel like I've never heard, I've heard, obviously Native people didn't want to share their identity, and then now there's a shift towards being more open about it, but I never really heard that shift process. So hearing that from you is very, very interesting. David Salas: Yeah. yeah. It's just wanting that legacy to be there. Like I said, for my daughter, my sons, I want to say were part of it because they were growing up with me when I was at that age, and we started looking, started talking to the uncles and really trying to dig into what the lineage, and so they were there for that. But my daughter really didn't have anything to do with that. She's only 16, of course, but wanting to share all that with her and really getting to, like I said, a legacy and trying to put it all together for her, so she'll have it to share also. Annesha Dey: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing everything you've shared with us so far. We have just one more quick question as broadly as you'd like, whichever thing, part of the category you'd want to speak on, but it's about culture broadly, food, art, traditional ceremonies, anything that you have memories about in either your childhood or your present day with your family. What does your culture look like in your life? Do you keep your culture alive?

00:57:33.000 - 01:01:59.000

David Salas: Yeah. My father or my grandfather always made this dish, and some people might find it gross, but it was literally raccoon and he would put sweet potatoes on it. And he said, this is something that he remembered as a dish. Of course, my grandmother would, everybody says it's tradition. The Navajo say it's tradition, the Apache, the fry bread, of course. Let's see. There was another dish that my parental grandmother, Mrs. Petra would do, and she called them fried tacos, is what we now know as quesadillas, but it is just a little odd. But as far as traditions and stuff like that, they were raised just about all the grandparents that I grew up with and knew and had really, like I said, growing up relationship with them. They were all raised Catholic, and these things were really, really enforced in their lives, I guess. So there was some things that, like I said, I want to say in about October is when my dad would do the raccoon dish, and he spoke to it as basically a changing of the seasons. And really, that's all I remember that has anything to do with a literal, any type of ceremony or anything of that nature. I know he would take the time, he would show us what to do, the boys, he would make sure we knew what we were doing, exactly what to use, how to cook it, when to cook it, and all that stuff. So whether I've looked it up, I've tried looking it up, and it might've been just a tradition on his part more than a ceremonial type thing, but that's really about the only thing I can remember. Is there anything else we want to cover? Annesha Dey: Do you have anything, Isabella? Isabella Bourtin: Yeah. So do you feel like over the course of your life you've collaborated with a lot of other Native people, do you feel like community has played a big role in your life? David Salas: Like I mentioned earlier, I think really not until, say within the last two years with the Lipan Apache members, and there was two or three other people that were on the Mescalero tribe that will literally speak to me. They would literally return my calls, would literally share messages with my relatives there and stuff like that. But other than that, I mean, again, the word that I heard from somebody was like, there's just so many gatekeepers out there because they don't want people that never have lived on the reservation or people that don't have that mentality of the ceremony and the way of life and everything. They really don't want anything to do with this for whatever reason. And to a certain point, I can understand, I really can.

01:01:59.000 - 01:05:03.000

David Salas: If I was in their shoes and I am where I am now with my 16-year-old daughter, and I lived on the reservation my whole life, I would have a heart attack. If she says, “I'm going to move to Houston,” or “I'm going to go to L.A., Dad,” or “I'm going to go to New York”, it's like, “Whatcha talking about? Are you nuts?” So I can understand it to a certain degree, but like I said, again, Ms. Contreras, Mr. Flores, Gonzo, they've been all willing to talk to me and just communicate back and forth, which is something that I hadn't experienced before. Like I said, I've tried and tried and tried and tried over the years, and a lot of the people just don't want to talk to you. Isabella Bourtin: Yeah, I completely get that I'm Native myself and the whole reconnection process. And I feel like a lot of people don't really take you as seriously if you're reconnecting. David Salas: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like, I don't know whether they don't believe you, they don't understand why you're doing it. They don't want, like I said, it just seems like there's a lot of gatekeepers out there that are like, “Hey, wait a minute, we can't let you in. There's no way.” And unfortunately that's where we're at. But like I said, there is quite a few have been quite a few posts on the Lipan Apache tribal site, and I'm trying to reconnect with them and see where my roots on the parental side lie, and I know where the maternal side comes from. And unfortunately with my grandmother and grandfather that I grew up with, or mom and dad, as I call 'em, I never knew their parents. And so being in a school like that, not being connected back, that's where it kind of all starts for me as far as the Kiowa tribe goes, that's the beginning. So yeah, that is the beginning there. We don't know their parents. I don't know that they knew 'em very well either. So yeah, they did the best they could. That's what I'm trying to do, trying to reconnect and figure out where I belong and all this mess. So yeah. Isabella Bourtin: What are some ways you've tried to pass down your culture and your understanding of your Indigeneity down to your daughter and any other people that are younger than you? What things do you want them to know about their culture and make sure that they remember through their lives?

01:05:03.000 - 01:11:42.000

David Salas: Yeah, I guess the main thing, as I tell my daughter, like I said, we've never really been religious as far as Catholic, Christian or anything like that. I've always been, even growing up with my grandparents, even though they were Catholic, I've always been, there is a creator and there is a lot of gods, but there is only one Creator. Every day. Everything has a spirit. The birds, the grass, the butterflies, the animals, everything has a spirit. We don't indiscriminately go out and kill something unless we're going to eat it. My daughter here on the property where we live, we have about nine very large live oaks, and we have these, we call 'em June bugs that come out every year, and they get kind of annoying. They want to buzz around your ear, buzz around your head, and they're about the size of a dime. So it's not a small bug or anything, but we refuse to, we totally refuse to kill any of them. It's just something we don't do. Another thing is that if you're not connected to a tribe and you do have these stories, like myself, go back and try to find 'em because a lot of these tribes don't understand that, I mean, you can only go so far with the people that you have under the tent. David Salas: Another thing is that, yeah, I mean, we're all human. We really do. We are, no matter your thoughts and beliefs. Had a conversation with a guy and he got very upset and very irate on Facebook. And it was like, I understand being Indigenous and upholding the thoughts and trying to uphold the processes of all this stuff, but at the same time, we are all Americans here. And my way of thinking was, I said, I told him, I typed in, “Hey, to the winner goes the spoils,” and he totally just went nuts. And it's like, but if you think about it, if you learn history, that's what was happening between tribes. When they would raid another tribe, they would take their women and take their horses, and to the winner goes the spoils. So at this point, there is no them and us, it's us, but at the same time, you are still Indigenous. So I mean, don't forget your ways, don't forget your ways, but at the same time, we're all American. We really are. So that's kind of what I try to instill into my daughter. She actually found a fry bread recipe and made some, so she does it pretty often now. And so yeah, that's really all just don’t, don't lose yourself, but don't use it as a cudgel toward others either, because at the end of the day, we're all American, be it that you're Lipan from Texas or Kiowa from Oklahoma, Cherokee, Ojibwe. Yeah. We're still all here. We’re still all here. Annesha Dey: Yeah. So we just have another question that's kind of like, if you could give us a little bit of … what does your current life, I guess, look like today with, I guess how you also interact with non-Natives and you balance these two different parts of your identity, how your childhood has affected you in the current day and the way that just you interact with people around you, and yeah. David Salas: Yeah, it, it's funny. A lot of people that I run into, I remember, I guess I was in my mid twenties and I was going to rent a home. I was working for a company that transferred me to Dallas and I was going to rent a home, and I had spoke to the homeowner four or five times, set everything up, and then I go to actually see him in person and he totally freaks out. He's like, “Well, I thought you were white.” Because I guess just the way I speak, a lot of times, just in general, I can talk to people on the phone and then I meet 'em and they're shocked and it's like, okay, so what was that look? And they're like, “Well, I kind of thought you were white listening to you speak on the phone.” And it's like, “Well, okay, is there an issue?” “No.” “Okay, so can we get beyond this little mess up here?” And there's one of my cats.

01:11:42.000 - 01:16:00.000

David Salas: So yeah, a lot of people that I do know were real heavy into the PTA and the school board meetings and all that. A lot of people that have met me know me and that I've met them for the first time and everything are again, a little shocked on how good my English is. They're after they know me for a little bit, they always have that look because I'm not, I guess I spoke today with you guys more than I spoke all year to anybody. I just normally don't. Again, I think it's a trait that I picked up from my grandmother. She just didn't. And I don't normally say a whole lot. When I do say something, I like to think it was important. And a lot of people just right away, I've met a couple of people and they're like, “Hey, you're not Hispanic.” And it's like, “Well, no, why would you ask?” And they're like, “Well, you don't have an accent.” And it's like, well, sorry to disappoint you, but I don't believe any of my relatives or my ancestors had accents either. David Salas: Yeah. But other than that, here in central Texas, here in the area we live in, it's small town living. So we tend to all get along unless there's somebody acting crazy or doing something a little off the cuff, but, but I try to listen to everybody. I try to communicate as best I can with everybody. But there is, like I said, growing up with the grandparents and everything, a lot of the older people that I've run into and veterans within the community, they're like, man, you're way older than what you are by years. And it's like, well, I grew up with my grandparents, so I'm a generation back compared to people my age, my thought processes and everything. Of course, like I said, I grew up with my grandparents. So it is a different generation and a different way of thinking, I guess more than anything. Try to be frugal, be good to your neighbors, try to help out, do what you can. That's kind of where we're at with that. Isabella Bourtin: Yeah, absolutely. That's really good to hear. Well, you covered every single question that we have. So I guess our final broad question is, is there anything you want to leave for anybody listening? Like advice, just like a final story, anything that you want to make sure that you get out there? David Salas: Just really and truly. If you are indeed and you've done the research yourself and you're Native and you know have the Native background, the number doesn't mean anything. Okay. The tribal number, all that stuff. I've done my research, I know who my grandparents are, and that's good enough for me. I would like to see it happen at some point in time. But at the same time, I understand that the Lipan tribe is having trouble. I would love to get a hold of the Kiowa tribe and see what I can do there. But like I said, after just being hung up on or no return calls over years and years and years and years, it gets old.

01:16:00.000 - 01:18:33.000

David Salas: But nobody can take away your Nativeness. You are who you are. Like I said, if you've done the background and for a fact, then you are who you are. You don't need, you don't need the affiliation would be nice. The number would be nice. But again, at the end of the day, it's a number that comes from the US government. Yeah. But yeah, just be you. Try to share anything that you know that has been taught to you and pass it on, pass it on to your children, let them know them, know where you came from. It is being lost every single day. There's so many people out there that just give up. And like I said, unfortunately a lot of the tribe members in the tribal councils, and you can only do so much, like I said, with the people you have underneath the tent. So if you broaden your spectrum a little bit and brought people in that are and have the documentation, I think it would be a good thing. Isabella Bourtin: Thank you so much for sharing. That's a great word of advice. That's something that I think a lot of current Native people have… really need to keep in mind because so much has been lost over the years. There's been so much perception of Native people that it's like they were scared to say they were Native, but that doesn't mean they weren't David Salas: Yeah, yeah. David Salas: Lived through it. Yeah, exactly. Definitely. And for all that to be lost. Yeah. It's being at my age now and trying to get things done and trying to get everything going. Yeah, it's a little daunting, but at the same time, it's like I said, Hey, you're Native and then you're Native. Isabella Bourtin: Absolutely. Well, those are all the questions we have for you. I just want to thank you so much for coming on here. This has been so incredible and I think that anyone listening to any of these oral history should listen to this one. I think this one's incredible. And yeah, thank you so much. Annesha and I are going to end our recordings.

01:18:33.000 - 01:19:04.000

David Salas: And once I get these, I'll get these pictures and I'll put 'em in a PDF and send them to one of y’all’s, both of y'all's email and y'all can go from there if y'all want to use them. I'm more than happy to let you guys use it, and if you don't, that's fine too. But I'll go ahead and send these to you. Isabella Bourtin: Thank you. We will absolutely put them into the file for your history and then hopefully I can get those in easy-to-view format on the website. David Salas: Right. There you go. Alright.