00:00:03.360 - 00:00:14.560

Today is Tuesday, July 5th, 2022. My name is Hannah Son. I'm here with Mr. David Quan for the Houston Asian American Archive here at Rice University. Hello, Mr.

00:00:14.560 - 00:00:20.500

Quan. Hi Hannah, how are you? Doing well. How are you? Hanging in there [laughs].

00:00:21.610 - 00:00:34.460

So, to begin your oral history interview, I have a few questions about your early life, starting with when and where were you born? So, I was born here in Houston. I was born in St. Joseph's Hospital.

00:00:36.510 - 00:00:47.610

If you ask— “when,” did you say? Yeah. August 1960. And so, my parents had moved to Houston in, I believe, 1951.

00:00:49.670 - 00:01:07.030

Wonderful, thank you. And how would you describe the household you grew up in, in terms of family members, birth order, perhaps the language you grew up speaking, or the environment in general? So, both my parents, their–their area of origin was

00:01:07.130 - 00:01:24.810

from the–the Guangdong region of China. I—Mom was born in the States, and my—so she was American-educated, having grown up in Georgia. My dad was born overseas, in China, and had immigrated to the US in

00:01:25.520 - 00:01:43.250

1937, ‘38, somewhere around there. And so, both of them were very English-fluent, but we did speak some Chinese at home. I think that I spoke—I know I spoke a lot more Chinese before starting

00:01:43.250 - 00:01:58.920

school and before starting kindergarten. And the dialect we spoke was–was hoiping, which is a—more of a village, rural dialect of Cantonese, probably. I'm the youngest of five children.

00:02:01.200 - 00:02:18.740

My siblings—my–my oldest sibling’s 12 years older than I am, and then I have a sister that's 10 years older than I am. As—'nother sister is eight years older than I am, and a–and a brother that's four years older than I am. And my–my brother and I, my brother Rick, the one that's four

00:02:18.740 - 00:02:38.780

years older than I am, we share the same birthday, even though we're four years apart. We lived behind my–my family's grocery store. The house was attached to the same—it was all one building. It was on the southeast or east side of Houston, over

00:02:39.260 - 00:02:58.600

in—very close to the ship channel, like four blocks from the ship channel. It was primarily a working class, surrounding neighborhood. I would not say majority Hispanic at the

00:02:58.600 - 00:03:14.740

time. It’s probably white and Hispanic, mostly. Very—there was a couple of other Asian grocery stores or Chinese American-owned grocery stores in the area, a couple of them related to us. Family, cousins. And it was a—the Asian population

00:03:15.280 - 00:03:31.960

in general in Houston was fairly small, especially compared to today. That's great. Thank you so much. And then, the archive has previously interviewed your mother, Esther, as well as three of your siblings, I believe, Gordon, Beverly, and Rick.

00:03:31.960 - 00:03:51.850

And they also shared extensively about the grocery store in each of their interviews. Did your parents operate the store for your entire childhood? If we're talking childhood through–through high school, yes. Yeah. They–they sold the grocery business when I

00:03:51.850 - 00:04:02.280

was in graduate school. And then, did you also work at the grocery store? According to me, or according to my siblings? ‘Cause my siblings would tell you I didn't.

00:04:02.560 - 00:04:20.280

[laughs] I was the youngest, so, you know, you kind of get picked on about that—those types of things. Yeah, no, I did. And–and we also did—the big difference in the way I was raised and a lot of my siblings were is that when I was

00:04:20.340 - 00:04:34.520

10, then my parents—we bought a new home about 15 minutes away from the grocery store. And so, I—not the entirety of my childhood was—or I didn't grow up entirely behind the grocery store.

00:04:36.270 - 00:04:49.980

But after school every day, we would still wind up back over there to work in the evenings and until it closed. And for about how many hours would you say that you worked after school? Did that change kind of throughout time?

00:04:50.530 - 00:05:07.030

Was it pretty inconsistent? You know, I never thought about that, Hannah. So, I would say, you know, I think that we’d close at like eight, eight thirty, on the

00:05:07.030 - 00:05:23.370

weekdays. So, you know, after school, there would be about four to—during the school year, after school, there—you would be, like, about four, four-and-a-half hours of work. And then, there's still some stocking shelves in the evenings, as well as kind of

00:05:24.350 - 00:05:41.840

balancing the–the cash reg—the money flow for the day, the cash intake for the day. So, you know, I guess, like, four, four-and-a-half hours a day, during the weekdays, during the school year. During the summers, you would, you know, be there

00:05:42.060 - 00:05:56.740

pretty much most of the day. They—we got to still do some social activities. I was in marching band in high school, so, you know, it was a football game one night, and I would be able to, you know, be off from working those evenings.

00:05:58.260 - 00:06:14.910

And then when we—usually, they did not make kids work on Sundays. We did work on Saturdays. Sundays, they—we’d go off to church, store’s only open half-day, and my dad—one of my uncles or cousins would help mostly run the stores on those days.

00:06:16.060 - 00:06:27.760

Right, I see. Thank you. And then, would you say you were close with your siblings growing up? I—yes, I think the—yeah, I would say so.

00:06:27.820 - 00:06:43.820

Although, again, you know, there was a big—there were big age gaps between us, and so we get along just fine. You know, typical brother situation of this a little boys, always a little bit of competition, sporting-wise.

00:06:45.930 - 00:07:02.830

Not uncommon. Also, older sisters—having second mothers, basically, to kind of keep the younger ones in line. So—but, you know, I think that we had—we were close enough to be fr—we definitely were friendly with each other.

00:07:03.020 - 00:07:17.710

We socialized, kind of, with same friends, and–and we still get along well, today. Were—I wouldn't say that we were each other's best friends, by—I think we had best friends outside of our siblings.

00:07:18.010 - 00:07:30.670

That makes sense. Thank you. And then, I also see from our previous interviews that, in addition to you having such a successful law career, your brother Gordon is an immigration lawyer. Your sister Wanda had a long career in education.

00:07:31.510 - 00:07:45.390

Beverly co-founded the Asian American Health Coalition, which eventually turned into the Hope Clinic here in Houston. And your brother Rick is a news reporter in Hawaii. [DQ: Right.] So, with each sibling being so accomplished in their respective fields, is

00:07:45.440 - 00:08:01.030

there anything you would attribute to this leadership ability? Did your parents instill a strong work ethic or particular values in your upbringing? Yeah, Hannah, I would–I would say—I mean, there

00:08:01.510 - 00:08:18.420

definitely was—you had to work, and there was kind of like, no question about that. So, there wasn't, like, ever a second thought. It wasn't like we had to go find any other jobs, because we knew we already had one. They–they would let me pick up other jobs sometimes, though, when I was growing up.

00:08:18.660 - 00:08:36.240

I don't know if my siblings had as much of a choice to get to do those type of things. When I was in high school, I got to, like, be the–the stadium announcer at the high school football field, and run the clock or something like that. So, they would let us do little side hustles, I guess, is what you'd say, right?

00:08:37.680 - 00:08:56.480

And—but, probably that work thing is—was so—it kind of ingrained. Our folks obviously worked hard. Definitely, we're reminded of—you know, that there were sacrifices that were made for us. Education was—there was a big premium on it.

00:08:59.060 - 00:09:15.520

The one thing I think that's kind of unusual about the five of us is for that time, in just, kind of, the development of Asian American population in Houston and nationally, that we all wound up in fields where our verbal skills were really important.

00:09:16.470 - 00:09:33.160

And there was definitely not an incentive on that, from either our parents or from the cultural surroundings, or what–what the expectations were for what an Asian American could do at that time. And I don't know how that happened, but somehow it did.

00:09:33.620 - 00:09:45.160

That's wonderful, thank you. And then, you started to talk about the neighborhoods you grew up in and some of the schools that you went to. Could you talk a little bit more about what it was like to be an Asian American student

00:09:45.160 - 00:10:00.430

in your childhood, and then just generally childhood memories going to school in that area? Yeah, so–so the elementary schools that went to were: there’s a school called Briscoe

00:10:00.430 - 00:10:15.970

Elementary, which is on—over in the Magnolia Park area, and I also—then when we moved, then I was still in elementary, and at that time, elementary school went all the way through sixth grade. And I went to a school called Lewis Elementary School, which is over by Hobby

00:10:17.270 - 00:10:33.400

Airport. Middle sch—for junior high school, what they called it then, was Hartman. And then I went to Milby High School, which is over on Broadway, again, kind of near the ship channel area. So, all five of us went to Milby.

00:10:34.520 - 00:10:49.640

But we didn't—went to different junior highs and elementary schools, because of just where we were neighborhood-wise and stuff. Some of us had some overlappings. It was—I don't remember but a handful

00:10:53.080 - 00:11:13.130

of Asian kids being in Briscoe, or at Lewis. Again, probably, I would say racially—racial demographics, more likely, Caucasian, Hispanic, pretty close.

00:11:14.220 - 00:11:30.470

A few Black kids. In the ‘70s, then, with the–with everything going on with regards to the end of the Vietnam War, there were some early Vietnamese immigrants that were coming over about the mid-’70s.

00:11:30.660 - 00:11:51.060

And so, I remember some new immigrants coming into high school at that time. It was also an area that was going through a lot of transition, geographically. There was a little bit of white flight that was going on, and so there—I remember that there was an increasing Black population

00:11:51.760 - 00:12:10.820

at Hartman Middle School, and even—I think by the time I was at Milby, it was probably—by the time I graduated, it was pretty evenly divided Black, brown and white, and with a smattering of Asians. Less than–less than five percent, for sure.

00:12:12.190 - 00:12:25.300

[HS: Okay, thank you so much.] I'm sorry, did you say, “How that–how did that make you feel?” Was part of the question? Sure, if you'd like to share. Yeah. You know, you always felt different.

00:12:25.960 - 00:12:40.580

You always felt like you—both good and bad. You—you know, you could kind of benefit from some of the positive Asian stereotypes, because they expected certain things from you. Or they–they gave–gave you more grace, maybe, because you're an Asian.

00:12:43.080 - 00:12:58.600

And so, that was kind of good. [laughs] I got—I didn't get bullied as much, because there was an assumption that you—martial arts, so that was great. But it also always felt, socially, a little bit disconnected,

00:12:59.520 - 00:13:16.380

and definitely, my parents were kind of more encouraging of our social friendships being in an Asian community, and that usually took form of our church that we went to. Did you go to the same church from birth, pretty much?

00:13:16.380 - 00:13:31.300

Did you go to church your whole life? Yeah. Yeah, Chinese Baptist Church. So, and then that—when I was young, it was downtown, and then it moved over to the Spring Branch area when I was about, probably, early teens

00:13:31.300 - 00:13:41.160

or so. Okay, wonderful. Thank you. And then, do you have any other just general favorite childhood memories that you can think of that you would want to

00:13:45.550 - 00:14:03.440

share? So, you know, one of the benefits about being the youngest kid is that I did get—because we relocated neighborhoods, I was the only one that got to play Little League. And so, that was a lot of fun. And it was a very—it felt—I was very happy about

00:14:03.740 - 00:14:21.300

getting to play Little League baseball, organized baseball, when I was a kid. I think that being a dad now, I think about how different of a relationship I had with my parents and what I think I have my relationship with my own child.

00:14:23.340 - 00:14:40.670

It's–it's just a different dynamic, I think, generationally, culturally, things like that. Even though my mom was American-born, it was—she was still, you know, this is—very culturally Chinese, I think, in many of her values.

00:14:41.500 - 00:15:02.290

And–and so, I love them, but it's a very different type of relationship. Right. Okay, so moving on to your college life and your education. How did you decide to attend UT Austin, and how was your time there

00:15:02.550 - 00:15:14.540

as an undergraduate? [laughs] Okay, so my parents were dying for one of their children to go to Rice. And I was the last hope.

00:15:15.790 - 00:15:28.200

And I got in. And I didn't go, which has always been a big disappointment to my parents [laughs] ever since then. My mom pulled out my admission acceptance letter, like, two years ago.

00:15:28.320 - 00:15:44.630

Like, this—that was, like, 40 years ago, I'm like, “You're still holding on to this letter. Amazing.” Anyway, once again, remind me that I didn't go to the school that my parents really wanted me to go to. So, it's kind of a weird story, Hannah.

00:15:48.030 - 00:16:04.250

Honestly, one of the big driving factors about why I wanted to go to UT was socially. I had some friends going up there. I also had more limitations on who my parents would allow me to date when I—if I stayed in Houston.

00:16:06.570 - 00:16:24.770

And I didn't want those restrictions, and so I went to UT. [laughs] It’s so dumb. No, but I definitely appreciate that, you know, having recently faced those type of college decisions. And so, with that, how was, kind of, living away

00:16:24.840 - 00:16:42.000

from home for the first time, I assume? Yeah, it was, you know, it was very fun. It was, you know, it's very freeing, and it was, you know, “I can stay out till two o'clock in the morning.” And it's, you know, so we definitely did.

00:16:42.280 - 00:17:00.550

And so, in—odd—despite what I just said about “socially,” I was still hanging very much—my smaller group of friends was mostly—were mostly Chinese American, like, kids who I’d known from Houston or met because

00:17:03.200 - 00:17:24.730

they were either, you know relatives from San Antonio and their friends, or that there had been some, you know—entered church type of grouping, or in Christian fellowship type thing that was Asian, and that was—so—but eventually, I also was able to kind of work into the general population as far

00:17:24.730 - 00:17:39.430

as my social circles. Right, right, I see. And then, thinking back to that time in college, were there any defining moments that you can remember, perhaps academically, or thinking about your career path?

00:17:40.530 - 00:18:00.590

Yeah. So I'd say probably—so I started out as an accountant–accounting major, mostly because that was something that my parents had kind of directed me towards, and I was—I liked numbers, and I wasn't—I didn't

00:18:01.640 - 00:18:16.140

really think I wanted to pursue a hard science field. And–and so, I was starting accounting major for the year and half. My sophomore year, I became a resident advisor at my dorm,

00:18:16.990 - 00:18:34.620

and one of my suitemates was a history major, pre-law. And he was—and I think that even as a business major, I thought I probably was gonna go to law school at some point. And so, he kind—he was a big pusher of humanities

00:18:36.100 - 00:18:55.600

education. And so, he was like, “Just take a history class. Tell me you don't like it.” And you know, see—and after taking a really great history class that had a real excellent professor, I was like, “Okay, I really want to switch over and be a liberal arts major.” And so having to tell my

00:18:55.650 - 00:19:09.350

parents that I was not going to be a business—get a business degree, and I was gonna get a liberal arts degree instead, with the promise that I would go to law school was—that was what, kind of—big point in just, setting my own course, I think.

00:19:10.400 - 00:19:24.970

Right, right. Definitely. Were there a lot of other Asian American students studying the same thing as you at the time? No. [laughs] There were not a lot of humanities students—Asian American

00:19:25.120 - 00:19:41.160

humanities students. Mostly they were business engineering, science, pharmacy. I don't recall seeing too many other—in fact, I don't remember having any—any of my classes. Right. Absolutely.

00:19:41.770 - 00:20:01.290

And then, I saw that you received your Masters and, eventually, your law degree at UT as well. What drew you to eventually study Public Affairs, and then just generally how was that experience? So, by that point in my life, and—my

00:20:01.360 - 00:20:19.350

brother Gordon was already a licensed attorney and–and beginning to get involved in local politics. And–and I had always kind of had a little bit of an interest in government, governmental affairs, more of policy level.

00:20:22.680 - 00:20:40.920

So, even with going into law, it—I’d been thinking that I was probably mostly gonna be on—that would have been to be supportive of a life in public policy, and—as opposed to in private practice. And so,

00:20:42.620 - 00:21:00.200

there was—the LBJ School was recruiting minority students. I went to a reception. They seemed very interested, and I did not get into UT of Law for my first shot. And so, I decided to go to get my Masters first, and then when

00:21:02.140 - 00:21:15.440

I wound up going for law school, then it turned out the best value for my money was staying at UT for my law degree. I see, thank you. And then, in terms of public policy, were there any—whether local

00:21:16.000 - 00:21:32.830

events, or statewide, national events that kind of influenced that decision at the time? So, you know, earlier, you had asked me some things about things in my childhood and that might have shaped me, and I will say that my–my parents were very involved with the

00:21:32.830 - 00:21:52.430

community, more from a standpoint of being within the Asian American community and, kind of, leadership within that group. But also to kind of try to present with—to the larger population, the larger community.

00:21:53.360 - 00:22:06.140

I believe that the Vincent Chin case happened around the time that I was also—'83, I think. ‘81 or ‘83.

00:22:06.650 - 00:22:21.130

And I remember that being pretty shocking. So, there was a little bit also just, kind of, waking the Asian conscience, kind of, time overall. Gordon was definitely a big factor in just, kind of,

00:22:21.410 - 00:22:40.930

you know, putting into my ear—seemed like it was a subject I really connected with him on a lot—is—because we had this common interest there. And then–and then, it turned out that I wound up rooming with someone who also wound up

00:22:41.610 - 00:22:55.790

running a presidential campaign later on. And so, he obviously had a lot of interest in public policy. And so, we talked a lot about it there, too. I see, thank you. And then, shifting a little bit more toward your

00:22:57.650 - 00:23:14.670

career, in terms of deciding to specialize in labor and employment law. I wanted to ask if that choice had to do anything with your family background, with your parents being business owners, and perhaps seeing them work with hiring out employees, or just general business dealings—or if there were any other

00:23:14.960 - 00:23:29.840

encounters, mentors in your life that influenced you towards labor and employment law? Yeah. So yeah, I didn't start out doing labor and employment law. Like I said, at first, I thought I was gonna go more

00:23:30.110 - 00:23:43.620

policy route, and then wound up working for a couple of judges, and thinking, “Well, maybe I will wind up in private practice.” And, you know, I didn't want to become an immigration attorney, just because it was what my brother did, and I didn't want to follow his footsteps there.

00:23:44.380 - 00:24:04.920

And it felt like—I never—unfortunately, I don't know why, but I think that a lot of my early decisions were often to push against the Asian stereotype. And so, at the

00:24:04.920 - 00:24:18.450

time, unfortunately, a lot of the Asian attorneys I knew before me were mostly immigration attorneys. So that would, again—just didn't want to just be another Asian immigration attorney. Nothing wrong with the field. It’s a great field.

00:24:18.960 - 00:24:32.070

Respect those people. They do a hard job. But it just wasn't for me. And so, I wound up in a different, kind of, more business area, and I didn't really enjoy it.

00:24:32.070 - 00:24:45.670

I will say that my brother suggested labor and employment, which I tried to ignore for a couple of years. And then, I eventually wound up in a position where I got to do a little bit of it, and I found that I really liked it.

00:24:47.010 - 00:25:05.660

Because it's really—it's very personal. And it's very—I mean, there’s—it’s a very personal interaction on both sides of the docket, as well as I think that the issue that you deal with in employment

00:25:05.800 - 00:25:24.200

law are—it’s the front line of where a lot of social change happens. And so it's—you get a little bit of an early taste of where social issues are going. Thank you for—so much for sharing that.

00:25:24.390 - 00:25:36.860

If I'm talking too much, Hannah, please tell me just to cut my answers down, so. No, it's wonderful. Thank you so much. And then circling back a little bit to talking about you practicing in other fields

00:25:37.160 - 00:25:55.330

and other jobs you had before becoming an employment attorney. You mentioned working for judges, and you also served as an associate judge for the City of Houston Municipal Courts, in between your law practice, I believe. It actually was—it was like, I was doing it at the same time as I was practicing law.

00:25:55.330 - 00:26:12.780

[HS: Oh wow.] It's, like, a part-time Municipal Court judge, doing like night courts and evening courts, so. So with that, could you talk about a little bit—what it was like to juggle both of those, and then also kind of just valuable experiences

00:26:13.060 - 00:26:30.860

you had serving the courts, and whether any of that later informed your practice in employment and labor? Yeah. I would say my first judicial clerkship I had at law school, up in Texarkana, working for the Texas Court of

00:26:30.900 - 00:26:49.180

Appeals. It was just the best offer I got out of law school, and it was—you know, it would be a great—it would be a good experience for building on. So, it would be something good to have on my resume for future job search and–and future of my career.

00:26:49.450 - 00:27:08.770

So–so that was—accepting that job—one of the things I think it was—contributed to was the appreciation for seeing the judges were human, and that they were, you know, kind of—fully, kind of,

00:27:08.770 - 00:27:27.010

getting an idea about what goes on behind the—behind and outside the courtroom, the thought process, that it felt like I could hang with that, that, you know—which was a bit of a confidence-builder of realizing that you could analyze along with what was being presented.

00:27:27.640 - 00:27:45.570

And, as a clerk, you usually helped draft the opinion, and the rulings. And so, you know, not only did you get to build some confidence and under—knowing that you could analyze along with the attorneys, but also that you actually got to help craft what the ultimate decision was.

00:27:45.710 - 00:28:02.970

And so, that was–that was very helpful. Working in—worked for the city attorney for a gap year, and then I wound up working for a district court—federal district court judge in Los Angeles. Again, fortunately, it was honestly through a family connection.

00:28:04.570 - 00:28:19.990

Judge Lew, who is now senior status out there, he had married a woman who was from Houston. So, we-we'd happen to know their families, and that's how I got introduced to Judge Lew. And he was nice enough to offer me a clerkship opportunity.

00:28:19.990 - 00:28:38.260

And so—and I’d always wanted to move to California, so that was great. But similarly to the appellate court was just again, being able to see and analyze and build off of that, and honestly, that was probably a more challenging experience out in Los Angeles

00:28:38.260 - 00:28:55.890

than the one in Texarkana. Working as a municipal court judge—actually, Judge Lew had also done the same thing, and so it was kind of fun to–to have kind of followed some of that path with him.

00:28:55.890 - 00:29:11.490

And it was a—it was—it—there was part of a community service thing, for one. It was partly—I also want to make sure that there was good representation of Asian community on the Municipal Court bench, and there was an

00:29:11.490 - 00:29:27.130

opportunity for it. And it was—what I liked about the Municipal—being a Municipal Court judge was that as lawyers, you get siloed off from really what the real community is a lot of times, and

00:29:28.160 - 00:29:42.180

everyone gets traffic tickets. And so, you get to see the real Houston when you got to do your docket call and take—you know, do arraignment and things like that. So that was–that was a lot of fun.

00:29:42.940 - 00:29:59.210

But it was tiring. And I would, you know, work during the day and then you—as an associate judge, part-time judge, you would work from like four to eleven and still have a lot of administrative duties, lot of times not getting home ‘til after like

00:29:59.210 - 00:30:15.410

one o'clock or so, and it was just too much after a while. I see, thank you. And then, on the subject of you working in Los Angeles and California, were there any

00:30:16.250 - 00:30:34.140

differences you noticed in terms of working—even with the different levels of courts, the Federal Court versus cities—and then, just, like, within law offices between the two different states or those two different areas at that time, if there's anything there that you could speak on?

00:30:34.140 - 00:30:52.230

Yeah. It—so as a history major, as well as even with my Masters education. It was all a lot of times focused on the Asian American experience.

00:30:52.930 - 00:31:12.920

And so, I was always curious about it, I think just because of growing up in Houston, kind of feeling different, thinking, seeing my cousins who are growing up in Georgia, who really had a very, very different experience. And then kind of having met people from California and kind of thinking, “God, that

00:31:12.920 - 00:31:25.310

seems,” you know—it felt like it was a bit of an ideal, in some sense. You kind of—when you grow up in a sparsely Asian population, you're thinking, “Wow, that would be so cool. If they're.

00:31:25.310 - 00:31:43.370

like, all these Asian American people are out.” So go to California, and it was odd. It was just—it was a really different feel. And you realized how, kind of, how Houston can be very tight, close community in many ways.

00:31:45.710 - 00:32:06.340

That—and so trying to rebuild connections to a community out in California was–was very different. You know, again, the Asian American Bar, definitely in Houston, it was still—it was growing—but it was still not very big.

00:32:06.340 - 00:32:24.470

And in Los Angeles, it was, you know, much—just the way that their community has developed, it's usually a few years in developmental—or it's more matured, I guess you'd say. So, they've been more—the idea of them being more involved in–more involved in the

00:32:24.560 - 00:32:45.180

law, the legal system, having judges of—with mostly still East Asian, not a lot of South Asian folks there yet. And just feeling really like a bit of a small fish in a big pond there in Los Angeles.

00:32:45.510 - 00:33:02.100

So, I enjoyed my time out there and met my wife out there, so that's really good. But–but yeah, it was—it never felt fully at home. It was definitely a different vibe in California than

00:33:02.270 - 00:33:19.290

Texas. Just the way people interact with people. I see, thank you. And then, this might be a little bit of a jump from speaking about your career, and we will come back to that. But could you talk a little bit about how you met your wife out in LA?

00:33:20.420 - 00:33:40.710

So, my wife and I met—so, my wife's background is that her mother's Caucasian, her father's Chinese American. We met at a multi-church conference, bunch of smaller Asian churches in the Southern California region

00:33:41.690 - 00:33:58.460

got together for a young adult conference, and she will want me to point out that she's much younger than I am. So, she was still in college, and I was already doing my career. And we were on the planning committee, and we just got to be friends over the course of

00:33:58.830 - 00:34:15.210

that year, and yeah. I guess we fell in love, so [laughs]. That's so great. Thank you so much for sharing that. And so, how did you come to eventually start your own law

00:34:18.730 - 00:34:32.450

office? I was in private practice working at different firms. It was a very stressful life. It’s a—there—it’s a business, and so, there are billing

00:34:32.450 - 00:34:47.300

requirements and deadlines to meet, and we became parents in 2000. And I really wanted to have a really good relationship with my son and be a part of his upbringing.

00:34:48.100 - 00:35:09.580

And we kind of, you know, when my wife and I kind of sat down in late 2004, we're like, “Okay, so what do we really want to do?” You know, and I think that–that it seemed feasible to be able to continue practicing with greater flexibility,

00:35:10.210 - 00:35:27.940

and yet to meet whatever goals we needed financially, to raise a family, and still, you know, have the chance to coach Nate when he was in the Little League. So that's–that was kind of the deal. We—very much were—co-parenting was the big deal for us.

00:35:28.330 - 00:35:42.140

I see, thank you. And then, could you describe some areas of labor and employment law that you specialize in, or if there are any cases you were very proud to have worked on that you'd be willing to share about?

00:35:43.290 - 00:36:00.050

Sure, so most of my early life is lab—in labor and employment was—is—was just defending on the employer-management side of things. So that would involve—and the type of issues were mostly

00:36:01.340 - 00:36:21.190

things like discrimination, harassment, retaliation, wage and hour, or leave issues. You wind up not just in litigation, but also in counseling, advising managers and human resources departments and things like that through

00:36:21.880 - 00:36:39.270

issues where they're concerned about possible legal implications. So, lot of laws to kind of be familiar with dealing with both federal and state. It used to be mostly a federal court practice or federal jurisdiction practice,

00:36:39.270 - 00:37:01.060

but there's been a movement to expand it on state jurisdictional use, so that you wind up in both–both—having to deal with both sets of laws, as well as both sets of courts. Since I went out on my own, part of that also was a desire to represent individuals

00:37:01.260 - 00:37:14.210

who had claims against their employers, or who were facing difficult situations at work. And so, I started representing on both sides of the docket. Okay, thank you so much.

00:37:15.290 - 00:37:34.460

And, kind of, with going to representing both sides and representing more individuals, you talked a little bit earlier about how labor and employment law is so personal, and it's kind of the front lines of where you start to see, like, social change happen. Could you elaborate a little bit more on that, and whether you've

00:37:34.540 - 00:37:56.250

had more insight or different types of insight into that, having now been on both sides of the docket? Yeah...thinking through how best to talk about through that. So, with regards to

00:37:56.250 - 00:38:16.750

social change and–and interaction, a couple examples would be, like, the #MeToo movement and the understanding and better acceptance of the idea that there can be microaggressions that can create hostility in the workplace, or a hostile work environment, as opposed to just overtly

00:38:16.830 - 00:38:32.590

racist things, which people, you know, over time, people—folks generally knew enough not to be blatantly racist, but they would—there would be little ways that it could still be communicated. So, kind of watching some of that change.

00:38:33.190 - 00:38:54.770

The issues with regards to sexual orientation, now, again, you know, kind of, first, along the education and employment fields is where those—some of those issues first get worked out, before general social acceptance or development or attitudes, it

00:38:54.820 - 00:39:11.120

happens. Likewise, we're kind of seeing a little bit of backlash, I think, again, about some of those things as well. And, you know, kind of a discounting of certain things that, from my perception, that we've made some

00:39:11.120 - 00:39:33.230

progress on, socially. So–so that's kind of where I can, I would say, with regards to social change and attitudes within interactions. Personal—so, even on a

00:39:33.230 - 00:39:51.530

managerial side, the number of my employers are smaller companies, who are moving into becoming larger and having to develop more formalities. They started off as a bit of a family business with some of their close friends or

00:39:51.780 - 00:40:08.040

people who they felt like were more like them and “This is who we are,” and–and–and not ever thinking they're going to have to start being more formalized with regards to how they're going to discipline, or how they're going to address certain performance issues, or how we're going to have even policies written down.

00:40:09.280 - 00:40:27.090

And so, kind of walking them through, sensitively—and maybe that's where it helps to come from a family-owned business. My wife is–is—been a small business owner herself, so there's understanding some of her concerns and how—some of the issues that she has to deal

00:40:27.090 - 00:40:46.360

with. So, on that level, personal, and then also on the plaintiff side, just thinking about how there was this one older executive who, you know, had been wrongfully terminated. He had thought this was going to be his last job and he had convinced his wife to

00:40:46.470 - 00:41:05.160

relocate, and then he got wrongfully terminated, trying to get him to a good resolution, and just knowing how much fear he had about his future, whether he was going to be as a—someone over 60, whether he was going to have any other opportunities, and whether he was going to be

00:41:05.160 - 00:41:20.240

able to get any type of resolution from the employer that had treated him poorly. And, yeah, just—you know, for him to be in tears a couple of times is, you know, just one of those, kind of, type of things.

00:41:20.240 - 00:41:36.180

Right, right. That's very powerful. Thank you for sharing that. And then whether in non-discrimination litigation or otherwise, how often do you handle cases for Asian American clients, would you say?

00:41:36.270 - 00:42:01.400

Yeah, it’s interesting. So, I would say that I've been asked to advise a lot of Asian American—mostly on the individual side. Some business owners as well, but

00:42:02.130 - 00:42:16.690

oftentimes it has been on—I feel like there has been more opportunities on the individual sides. A lot of times it’s just understanding what their rights are, what–what process they need to go through. I think that

00:42:19.090 - 00:42:35.520

it's changing, but in general, when you're talking to Asians on the managerial side, we're talking about, probably, more recent immigrants who are also smaller businesses, or more early entrepreneurship.

00:42:37.560 - 00:42:58.670

And so, taking measures proactively to avoid exposure to liability is not necessarily a priority. And it's definitely an unwanted cost for a lot of very

00:42:58.670 - 00:43:16.340

entrepreneurial people. So that hasn't—I think that's why it's more difficult to kind of develop, again, very—it’s very generalizing, but on the Asian American business side of things.

00:43:16.690 - 00:43:34.690

It's awkward to me, also, I think, sometimes with regards to if it's Asian American claiming racial discrimination, if it's something that needs to be pursued to litigation. I honestly think sometimes it's better for it not to be me that's representing them,

00:43:34.690 - 00:43:54.470

because they need—the jury needs to see that someone outside the community sees the discrimination they may have faced, and so that—I think it comes across more credibly, as opposed to another Asian person representing them, where they would just go, “Oh well, you know,

00:43:54.570 - 00:44:13.590

two Asians. That's what it looks like, but really, they weren't being discriminated against.” So, I've had to—it's been mostly—yeah, it's—sometimes it's not—I’m not the right person to do it. It's—they need to have someone else showing that it is a social problem,

00:44:14.050 - 00:44:32.660

larger than just Asian community. With that, in your experience, have you found that Asian Americans in employment or labor disputes are more likely to either not seek out legal counsel or legal action, or to gravitate more towards

00:44:33.100 - 00:44:50.440

like co-ethnics like you—Asian American lawyers? Yeah, I think that there is something built into our culture–into our cultural values that–that has a problem with—that really makes us more hesitant

00:44:54.440 - 00:45:13.730

to see—to-to—but I think there’s this concern that we're gonna sound like we're complaining, that we don't want to be the squeaky wheel. You know, I think for many of us, we’re told, you know, “Just put your head down and keep working, and eventually your hard work will be rewarded,” which isn’t

00:45:13.930 - 00:45:33.150

really true, but that's, I think, a value that's perpetuated often within the Asian cultures. So–so yeah, that part of it is just not a desire to–to assert your

00:45:33.360 - 00:45:51.030

rights. So, on that side of things, you know, on the defense side of things, like I said, I think it's–it's not until the problem is right in their—it’s in the face, like a lawsuit being served on them or Department of Labor, auditing an employer or something like that, that they'll

00:45:51.180 - 00:46:05.170

go. “Oh, okay. Now we need to bring in an attorney.” I see. absolutely. Would you say that anti-Asian sentiment in recent years has impacted your representation

00:46:06.110 - 00:46:26.160

for Asian Americans at all, or otherwise, maybe brought issues that you've been seeing just more into public consciousness? Yeah, I mean, I think that there's, you know—definitely, very glad to see a more organized and more well-thought-out

00:46:28.460 - 00:46:45.180

and assertive campaign against the anti-Asian hate that has happened in the last couple of years. I think that for a lot of Asian Americans, we still didn't believe that that—didn’t think that

00:46:45.320 - 00:46:58.510

would really ever happen. That it was going to happen to other minority groups or ethnic groups, but not us, sadly. So–so, I definitely think there's been more awareness of that.

00:46:58.650 - 00:47:20.870

I've had non-Asian business associates during—you know, reach out to me and say, “How do I show empathy and alliance with some of my Asian American colleagues?”

00:47:23.170 - 00:47:43.720

But they don't want to come across as possibly say the wrong thing, and “I’m not gonna get in trouble with HR.” And so, I think there's definitely been a greater consciousness in the greater—in the larger community. But I think that we're still probably the group that–that–that is

00:47:43.760 - 00:48:00.670

generally thought of as—or is going to be more questioned about whether we really have anything to complain about, so. Right, right. I see. And then I know you discussed a little bit earlier about not seeing—not many other

00:48:00.810 - 00:48:18.180

Asian peers in school, studying the humanities and such. Do you encounter many other Asian or Asian American colleagues in your field now? Have you seen that change at all throughout the course of your career? That's a great question, Hannah.

00:48:18.180 - 00:48:36.970

‘Cause what's funny is there's definitely a lar—much larger presence of Asian Americans in–in law now, and in some areas that you normally would not see Asian Americans—trial lawyers, plaintiff's attorneys—that

00:48:38.270 - 00:48:54.420

are really good, capable, high quality. And the attorneys that are there wanting to pursue fields that are a little bit more, quote, unquote, risky. May not be as–as prestigious in some people's

00:48:56.060 - 00:49:14.090

mind. But interestingly, I've had this conversation with a couple of Asian American attorneys recently, that there are very few Asian American employment attorneys. It's bizarre. And these are—the folks that I was talking to are young attorneys, within the first

00:49:14.090 - 00:49:29.430

five years of their career, and they're thinking about–about labor and employment, but they have—they’re—they kind of looked around the room, too. And they realize, “Hey, there's no—really Asian American employment attorneys in Houston.” I don't know what it's like, nationally,

00:49:30.710 - 00:49:44.750

but it is true in the Houston community. For some reason, there hasn't been much of a move toward that area. There is kind of becoming a few more of us, but–but yeah, it’s a relatively small group.

00:49:46.690 - 00:50:03.690

I see, thank you. And then, how has your work been affected by the COVID-19 pandemic? Have those effects changed or waned at all kind of over the course of that? Yeah, I think that—like,

00:50:06.870 - 00:50:27.130

individually, Hannah? Like my particular practice, or just law practice in general? If you would want to comment on both, that would be wonderful. Okay. If you ask just about every—any labor employment attorney, currently,

00:50:27.700 - 00:50:44.970

they are swamped right now. And I would say that in the spring of 2020, there's a great deal of fear about whether our practices were going to survive, how they were gonna survive, et cetera, and just general economic uncertainty.

00:50:45.930 - 00:51:05.320

But then, when there were so many issues that came up during COVID, about public health, leave policies, and virtual work and whether, you know, special allowances for paid leave for COVID, things like that, that it did

00:51:06.400 - 00:51:24.740

kind of ratcheted—employment attorneys became much more essential. I think, also, that COVID is probably—made everyone just a little saltier. And so, people are more litigious right now, ‘cause it feels like people are more likely to file a complaint, or to—the workplace dispute comes

00:51:25.880 - 00:51:44.680

up. I think there's a lot of mental health issues at work right now, and probably, from a employment law perspective, I think that there are a lot of decision makers for employers that

00:51:44.990 - 00:52:01.670

may not have given the same level of respect for mental health as physical health. And there—we’re probably all learning a little bit more about that right now, and we're gonna be adjustments to that, with regards to—whether it be benefits, or the

00:52:01.670 - 00:52:10.530

way that we handle certain situations. But I—we’re seeing it all play out right now. It's just disputes. It's just—it’s–it's rougher.

00:52:10.730 - 00:52:27.650

It's more combative. Okay, thank you so much. To talk a little bit about your community involvement throughout your career, I see that you've served on a number of boards for Houston-based

00:52:27.650 - 00:52:42.770

organizations, as well as advisory councils for Houston ISD. Could you share about how you came to be involved with these organizations in the local community? Yeah, I think that was some degree, a value instilled

00:52:43.530 - 00:53:02.010

in me by my–my folks, and modeled for me by my folks, as well as my understanding of where–where my faith takes me, in what I'm supposed to be doing as a—in response to the faith that I'm claiming.

00:53:03.250 - 00:53:22.610

And so, community service has been connected to those things. I'm not gonna lie to say that I also am sure that part of this is a bit of Asian guilt, and also just expectation and obligation situation

00:53:22.830 - 00:53:39.210

and things like that, too. And—or where that—there’s also not a side professional, monetary, financial benefit of always also interacting with your community and having your name known as someone who possibly

00:53:40.160 - 00:53:58.530

could—may need an employment law issue addressed. And so, you know, it's been—the–the organizations that I've worked with. First one was Community Family Centers, and that was very close to the neighborhood of where my—I’d grown up, and it was primarily Hispanic

00:53:59.480 - 00:54:18.870

community that was—needs that were being addressed. And I guess because of where we grew up, and then I think we've all always felt a special connection just with Hispanic community in general. Human trafficking issues were something that were—they kind of came to my

00:54:18.870 - 00:54:37.530

attention. It was–it was—came up on my view, somehow, at some point, and it—got introduced to working with the—what was then called—what were we called? Houston Rescue and Restore, and then it became

00:54:39.580 - 00:54:49.950

United Against Human—UAH—yeah. United Against Human Trafficking. And so, and—yeah, so that was with those things. Education.

00:54:50.220 - 00:55:10.680

My kid was in school, and it was in HISD, and we had a very unfortunate incident with some–some kind of racial remarks that were made by the school's principal when he was in elementary school, involving–involving a half Asian kid, and

00:55:10.680 - 00:55:22.610

so wound up kind of getting involved in that one, and just felt like we couldn't not say anything about that one. And then it just led to kind of more involvement with the district in general.

00:55:24.880 - 00:55:40.070

I see, thank you for sharing that. And then, of those, and any of your other, kind of, community involvements, which are you, like, still actively committed to working with? And then, if there are any organizations or areas, issues, that

00:55:40.560 - 00:55:57.670

you in the future would be interested in exploring, if you could share about them? I think COVID really did put kind of a damper on things, you know, it just kind of freaked us all out. And I feel like I did a little bit of withdrawing

00:55:57.740 - 00:56:20.620

from a lot of community involvement during that time. So currently, I'm not serving on any boards. I had—my most recent—well, it’s still part of the Asian Advisory Council with HISD, but

00:56:21.230 - 00:56:41.330

I'd also been on the–the Bond Oversight Committee, and the district—just in the context of what's been happening with them, there's been a lot of, you know—they’ve been under lot of close scrutiny by the state Education Agency, as well, as

00:56:42.850 - 00:56:58.110

it turns out that some of the people that we were working with on that Bond Oversight Committee, were not being fully truthful and were embezzling some funds apparently, allegedly. And so, that kind of was a little—that’s pretty disappointing.

00:56:58.920 - 00:57:16.950

Kind of makes you kind of question some of that involvement. I still think—believe strongly that–that we want good citizens in–in from the Asian American community, you want good representation, in all of those type of

00:57:17.380 - 00:57:38.390

little ways to contribute back into, you know, addressing the larger society. So–so I just—I haven't identified anything recently that I want to jump into. But yeah, I’m sure that there's

00:57:38.420 - 00:57:53.900

probably going to be something. I was—there had been another human trafficking organization—an organization that addresses human trafficking issues that I had been talking to recently. And like I said, I think I'm just a little bit of post-COVID shock right now, so.

00:57:55.770 - 00:58:09.800

Absolutely. That's very understandable. You've also been affiliated, of course, with the Houston chapter of the Asian American Bar Association of Texas. Can you speak to how that organization is important to Asian American

00:58:09.800 - 00:58:28.930

law students and young attorneys and the activities and accomplishments of the association, while you have been a part of it? Yeah, I think that it is—what is modeled is always going to be helpful for any young person aspiring into an area.

00:58:29.150 - 00:58:50.220

So I think that it is really encouraging for the Asian American—that we're get—young people, high schoolers, kids, at any level, who are thinking about possibly pursuing a career in law, to realize that there are others that–that your race

00:58:50.220 - 00:59:07.810

isn't necessarily going to be an impediment to that, or it can definitely be overcome, if they—if there is an impediment to it. For them to be able to see a variety of different practices and areas that are that Asian American attorneys are doing, just that there's no

00:59:08.110 - 00:59:28.410

limitation on that. Personally, as far as how—whether it's been a benefit: I think it's been a platform at times and an interaction, with regards to having—feeling some camaraderie. I have not been, you know, taking

00:59:28.760 - 00:59:47.080

an active role in the leadership of the organization. But I’ve tried to contribute in different ways, with regards to feeling–feeling like if I could offer something from–from my experience or my perspective, to—as a speaker, or you know, presenting

00:59:47.790 - 01:00:07.710

a topic or something like that, and so occasionally I've been able to see that and I think that–that's hopefully been, you know, for good. But I think it's—every time I go to an Asian American Bar Association Gala, now—and it is such an impressive

01:00:08.250 - 01:00:32.410

event. And I think it's really beneficial to us, as the larger communities—legal community sees the heavy presence of Asian Americans in the industry, and to recognize that it is not to be overlooked is very good.

01:00:32.430 - 01:00:48.170

That's wonderful. Thank you so much. And then, to talk about more of your identity and, kind of, current and recent personal family life and interests,

01:00:49.450 - 01:01:05.960

how do you identify yourself in terms of ethnicity and nationality? And then, as someone who was born in the States, as a Houstonian, has this ever been a point of contemplation or even contention for you throughout your life?

01:01:06.590 - 01:01:25.420

[laughs] How? [laughs] No, of course. Yeah. No, I mean...I think that—definitely identify as Asian American.

01:01:27.090 - 01:01:44.590

And it’s a heavy—I recognize that, that, in my own understanding of who I am, I—that’s a large part of—there’s a large part of my identity. I was a

01:01:44.590 - 01:02:04.980

very—I’m a very proud native-born Texan. And–and I've had to kind of recognize maybe some of the negatives of being a native Texan. Growing up here in–in Houston and Texas, with very strong

01:02:04.980 - 01:02:22.540

Southern roots, ‘cause telling someone that—what’s strange is that when my brother and I used to play sold—with soldiers, when we were little, that we really wanted to be the Confederate soldiers. And we want—and the Union soldiers were the bad guys, and because we

01:02:22.540 - 01:02:39.730

had just been so indoctrinated with the idea of our surrounding group being the ones that were in the right, and we had a lot of Texas pride, and Texas was part of the Confederacy. So, we did—needed to be part of the Confederacy. I've had to

01:02:39.900 - 01:02:55.460

obviously rethink a lot of that, and thank goodness, I have this progressive Californian, as a wife is—also kind of reminded me a lot about that, too. And then, also, raising a son here.

01:02:55.790 - 01:03:10.530

And, you know, wound up going to UT. So, he's very Texas-y. He identifies very Texas-y. And I should say, also—so my

01:03:10.990 - 01:03:26.220

son is from Korea. My wife and I adopted him when he was five months old. And so—but he is, you know, obviously East Asian. He is very—but he was raised in a very white world.

01:03:27.550 - 01:03:42.450

And I think he's kind of had to come into his own about understanding who he is, as an Asian American separately. It's been kind of interesting to watch that and think about—it’s caused me to reflect more on how I see myself and my Asian American identity.

01:03:43.610 - 01:04:03.560

So definitely, there's a contingent of the kind of old school Texas and trying to always—having grown up always wanting to fit into this–this big old concept of what Texas is, and never feeling quite like I was going to be fully integrated into it. And then what is that—what’s the vision of Texas going to be

01:04:03.750 - 01:04:20.710

going forward? And it's clearly not going to be the same racially, culturally, prospective place as it used to be. Right, right. Thank you so much for sharing that.

01:04:20.890 - 01:04:39.370

You mentioned how you very frequently see societal issues and interactions between different people reflected in your work. And with Houston being such a vast, populous, diverse city [DQ: Yeah.], do you see those manifest in a way specific to Houston's character?

01:04:40.730 - 01:05:02.550

How would you describe that experience in Houston to perhaps an outsider? So, when I moved to California back in 1989, and I was rooming with a co—a guy that was from Southern California and a guy that was from Chicago, and their perception about Texas was they

01:05:02.620 - 01:05:21.840

did—they truly asked me whether tumbleweed blew through the streets of downtown Houston. And–and so, I think that, you know, clearly there is a outside perspective of what it means to be Texas—from Texas. Houston has always been much

01:05:23.870 - 01:05:40.700

more of a melting pot city. And it is, you know, I think that the Los Angeles Times reported that it is the most diverse city in America now, as far as number of languages spoken and perc—number national origins identified by–by the

01:05:40.790 - 01:06:04.450

population. And so, you know, I would not be the person I am if I wasn't—had not grown up in Houston, and experienced Houston, even as an adult, and to see how to deal with the interactions of different—not only

01:06:04.450 - 01:06:22.330

races and ethnicities, but also stages of immigration, and Americanization. Which, I think that's–that's kind of that additional layer of it. It's not just—where you lump all the whatever ethnic group

01:06:22.330 - 01:06:36.610

together. It's also where their immigration pattern history was, and how—what developed it, things like that, that really—you, kind of, can see the layers of that. Right, I appreciate that a lot.

01:06:36.610 - 01:06:54.050

Thank you. And then do you have any hopes for or reflections on Asian American communities, kind of, in this contemporary landscape, this current climate that you'd like

01:06:58.900 - 01:07:12.680

to share? So, I think there's always a bit of a conflict of—also with regards to having an aspiration for a particular ethnic community,

01:07:16.930 - 01:07:34.410

because it—unless, if you play it out, then I guess, to me, it winds up meaning that there's still a continued segregation of the community, whether it be it voluntarily selected one, or whether it's something that's imposed on. So–so,

01:07:38.530 - 01:07:58.460

it's tough to say, I mean, I–I don't think that there's, you know—it’s naive as to think that there won't always be some level of otherness that will alw—that Asian Americans are always going to be perceived with by some people.

01:08:02.940 - 01:08:20.340

So, I guess, you know, the idea of being fully woven and appreciated into the fabric of–of the entire community. Maybe that would be it. But with that, would mean that eventually there would be, in my mind,

01:08:21.150 - 01:08:42.310

probably a full disintegration of an Asian American identity because there would have been intermarriage amd multiracialism to such a degree that, what does it mean to be Asian American anymore? I see, thank you so much.

01:08:44.020 - 01:09:20.130

And then, would you want to share any more about your current family life, your wife and your son, some of the values you try to instill in your son, memorable stories, anything along those lines? Well, you're catching me at a really weird time, Hannah.

01:09:20.590 - 01:09:36.510

And this—we were just having—my wife and I just had this, kind of, deep talk about this last night about legacy and what does it mean? Who do you really affect, and what–what really happens when you're–when you're gone,

01:09:36.580 - 01:09:56.060

and how long—does your memory really even make much of a difference in the end? And I think I used to view things so much more as, like, that you get—and you wanted to do something that was going to be remembered

01:09:57.750 - 01:10:13.400

across the community for, you know, for–for eternity, or until time ends, or whatever, you know? And I guess, at this point, I'm kind of thinking—I’m hoping that I've instilled—I know that my child will miss me, someday.

01:10:14.310 - 01:10:34.130

My wife is—if–if I–if I predeceased her that she would miss me, that there can be good memories and that will have affected, you know, our kids, and our—whatever kids he has—if he has. And so—but—and then I guess, again, the friendships the—we’ve had

01:10:34.270 - 01:10:50.890

relationships, and the connections, and those interactions—if they've been positive, in that regardless of whether it was within context of it being a part of the Asian American community or a larger community.

01:10:55.390 - 01:11:17.250

God, that sounds so—oh, man, sounds kind of big-scale. As far as—I mean, I will say this. From a—about—reflection about my family. I'm very proud of my wife for having become so—for the

01:11:17.250 - 01:11:35.750

contributions she's made to the larger community, ‘cause I think that she's done so many really cool things in her work. And–and I think that–that because of her work, the–the general community has had some

01:11:35.750 - 01:11:54.720

ben—is gaining benefits from that. And I think one thing, maybe with regard to our child, is that–that we—Nate is just graduated, he's about to be starting on his first job, and I think we both desire for him to recognize

01:11:57.530 - 01:12:14.600

and really make it a priority to be looking out for the great—the good of–the good of the larger community and not just be concerned about his own career. That's wonderful.

01:12:14.730 - 01:12:30.240

Thank you so much for sharing that. And then, finally, could you tell me about some current hobbies or interests or other aspirations, kind of, outside of your career that you have?

01:12:30.380 - 01:12:50.650

Always a big Houston sports fan, okay? Not a big Texans fan right now, but huge Astros fan. Always be a big UT fan, of just about anything. I think so much of—I think my hobbies and interests are usually

01:12:51.400 - 01:13:08.600

connected relationally. So, it's like to—so, you know, I'm a fly fisherman and a golfer, more because there's a great ways to—that I—that my son is—he’s very interested that, so I’ll wind up hanging out with him when do things

01:13:08.650 - 01:13:23.920

like that. I think that from an interest and, kind of, vision for future. I think my wife and mine’s kind of vision and how we see that is

01:13:27.210 - 01:13:44.740

to–to create spaces and times and experiences for people to have good conversations, to hear different perspectives, and to build some relationships that they didn't have before.

01:13:47.560 - 01:13:57.030

I see. Thank you so much. So, that was the final question that I have for you. Is there anything you would like to add or any final remarks you'd like to leave with the archive?

01:13:57.030 - 01:14:14.130

I'm gonna so hate watching this recording, because I'm going to sound—whenever you find yourself having been interviewed and just like “Oh my god, I can't believe I said that.” So yeah, I don't think I have any questions, Hannah.

01:14:14.520 - 01:14:27.340

[laughs] I'm just kind of sitting through, kind of cringing at thinking of reviewing the transcripts at some point. So, I’m sure I’ll have questions then. Like, “Can we edit this?”

01:14:28.120 - 01:14:38.760

Well, it's been so delightful to be able to speak with you. Thank you so much for taking the time [DQ: Thanks.] to talk with us today, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your week. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording.