00:00:03.510 - 00:00:17.910

EM: Alright. So, today is Friday, February 2nd, 2024. EM: And I'm here with Pastor David Hsu for—on behalf of the Houston Asian American EM: Archive at Rice. EM: And just a disclaimer, this is not a–a standard oral history interview.

00:00:17.910 - 00:00:34.410

EM: This is part of my independent, part-project for my senior English EM: thesis about different ways that Chinese immigrant parents show love to–to EM: their children. So, to begin, would you mind stating your full name, and then EM: also when and where you were born?

00:00:34.970 - 00:00:51.740

DH: Yes. My name is David Hsu. DH: My Chinese name is David Chung-I Hsu, which is my full name. DH: I was born in 1965 in Taipei, DH: Taiwan. My parents came from China, and—but I was born in

00:00:51.740 - 00:01:03.930

DH: Taiwan and raised in the US. EM: I see. And how would you describe your household growing up? EM: Like how was your relationship with your parents and then did you have any siblings? DH: Yeah, I have two siblings.

00:01:03.930 - 00:01:20.880

DH: I have a–a younger sister and a younger brother. DH: I would say I grew up in a very sheltered, very loving DH: family. I could—it was a Christian household— DH: I could hardly recall seeing Mom and Dad fighting

00:01:21.420 - 00:01:32.580

DH: over anything. DH: My grandparents, my mother's side, lived with us. DH: I was–I was very blessed. DH: I felt like I was raised in a very loving family.

00:01:34.640 - 00:01:50.330

EM: That's awesome. And you mentioned that you grew up in the US. EM: So, did you, like, immigrate here at a young age, or— DH: Yes. My father passed away when I was DH: 12, and our family immigrated to the US when I was

00:01:50.330 - 00:02:03.890

DH: 14. So, my—basically—starting with sev— eighth DH: grade and then high school, I–I grew up in the DH: US, and prior to that, I was in Taiwan. DH: Yeah.

00:02:05.260 - 00:02:20.560

EM: I see. And was it—like, how was the transition from Taiwan to the US, if you EM: remember? DH: Yeah, it was–it was a little rough at first because, DH: you know, first of all, I think we left Taiwan, like, basically about two years after

00:02:20.560 - 00:02:36.220

DH: my dad passed away. DH: So, I think it was—you know, we were just in a–a–a tougher place as a DH: family, you know, whether it be a financially or–or many ways. DH: And my mom, I think, was quite—i-it's v-it was

00:02:36.610 - 00:02:49.840

DH: ve-very hard for my mom. DH: So, immigrating over, my mom spoke very little DH: English, and we all had to learn to pick up the DH: language and pick up the culture.

00:02:50.260 - 00:03:09.550

DH: So, yes, I would say that especially the first four years, my high school years, DH: trying to kind of figure out our ways in the new DH: world that we're in, growing up without my dad, and DH: trying to figure things out, I think those were more—some challenging years for us as a

00:03:09.550 - 00:03:20.590

DH: family. EM: Yeah. I'm sorry to hear that. EM: That must have been really tough. EM: Like, within those, like—that kind of dark period, do you recall any, like,

00:03:20.590 - 00:03:35.680

EM: happiest moments that you had with your mom or, like, perhaps with your dad as well, back EM: in Taiwan? DH: Yeah. You know, the–the honest truth is, I think until my dad passed DH: away, I really took a lot of things—I mean, that's why I say I was very sheltered—I felt

00:03:35.680 - 00:03:44.020

DH: like I took a lot of things for granted. DH: I was very self-absorbed as a kid. DH: I was just in my own little world. DH: I–I didn't really care about much of other things.

00:03:44.890 - 00:03:58.420

DH: And I wouldn't say even the—when we immigrated over DH: those four years were dark years, but they were more challenging just because, you know, DH: we're without our dad. DH: But I think we enjoyed life in the US very much.

00:03:59.380 - 00:04:14.650

DH: My uncle took us fishing. DH: My brother and I played basketball together. DH: Without my dad, to tell you the truth, my mom was somewhat more hands-off as a parent, so DH: we're almost given somewhat of a free hand in terms of our own lives.

00:04:15.100 - 00:04:30.580

DH: So–so, no, they were–they were–they were– they DH: were challenging times just because we were all trying to figure our way out DH: in America, learning the language and everything. DH: But they were–they were great times.

00:04:30.580 - 00:04:45.580

DH: I mean, they're fond memories growing up. DH: We—but we were still somewhat sheltered because we, DH: you know, we didn't know too many people other than, say, going to church and going to DH: school or our lives were pretty sheltered during the—during those high school

00:04:45.580 - 00:04:58.950

DH: years. Yeah. EM: I see. Yeah, I guess dark wasn't exactly the correct word to use. EM: Yeah. I'm glad it—I'm glad it went well. EM: And do you recall, like, how long it took you to feel, like, comfortable or, like,

00:04:59.190 - 00:05:15.240

EM: at home in the US? DH: Yeah, I would say, I would say probably by– DH: by middle of my senior year in high school because I, you know, I would say my–my first DH: couple of years in the bub-bubble in Fr—a town called Framingham, it's–it's a suburb of

00:05:15.240 - 00:05:29.910

DH: Boston, there were hardly any Asians there. DH: When I was first in New York, there were tons of Asians there. DH: And so I think by the time my senior year, I think I settle in more. DH: The first couple of years in high school, I get bullied a lot.

00:05:30.030 - 00:05:45.120

DH: There was a lot of bullying and things, name calling, getting pushed DH: around. And I felt like by senior year, I felt like I DH: have kind of, s-academically and things like that, I have kind of more DH: established myself.

00:05:45.120 - 00:06:01.440

DH: I'm no longer with—you know, because before I first started, you know, first two years DH: taking a lot of ESL classes, I—and my language wasn't good enough DH: to take classes, say, more accelerated classes and so forth. DH: But my senior year, I pretty much kind of caught up to everybody.

00:06:01.440 - 00:06:16.020

DH: So, I-I'm more with a group of peers. DH: I think they were more respectful and more kind to me. DH: And I felt like, I–I felt more comfortable with my environment as DH: well as—I think I stopped walking around with a dictionary on my hand because my first

00:06:16.140 - 00:06:31.290

DH: 2 or 3 years, those were before digital devices. DH: And I–I walked around with a little dictionary with me most of the time, I was a DH: total nerd. [laughs] EM: Yeah, that's great that you're able to get adjusted though, and then also find a better

00:06:31.290 - 00:06:45.060

EM: group of friends or peers. EM: [DH: Mhm.] I guess if you're comfortable talking about it in terms of like the EM: bullying did you ever bring it up with your– your mother or did you ever have those, EM: like, conversations with her about it?

00:06:45.090 - 00:06:58.650

DH: No, I don't think I've ever talked to people about it until later on in life. DH: Just because first of all, I just didn't want my mom to worry about me. DH: I was the oldest of the three kids. DH: I didn't want them to feel to be worried.

00:06:58.950 - 00:07:09.270

DH: And, you know, there were kids who want to pick a fight. DH: They think that I know Kung Fu just because I'm Asian. DH: I didn't know Kung Fu. DH: I mean, I'm glad I didn't know Kung Fu.

00:07:09.270 - 00:07:19.890

DH: I think it would be a bad idea if there was another Cantonese guy who supposedly knew DH: Kung Fu and got beat up. DH: You know, because it wasn't like Kung Fu contest or something. DH: People, they were just ganging up on him.

00:07:20.040 - 00:07:35.340

DH: And so I felt like, you know, I think I remember one of the things that was DH: going on with—so I was doing pretty well in chemistry, and a lot of the kids with me in DH: chemistry classes, they were struggling. DH: And so, they gave me this–this nickname.

00:07:35.340 - 00:07:51.750

DH: You know, in chemistry, this is Avoga- Avogadro's number, if you recall DH: that. And so they would just call me "Avo." So–So I'm in the hallway, it's "Avo!" DH: and then, "Avo, what's going on?" you know, and I try to kind of ignore them or people, DH: you know, push me a little bit and so forth.

00:07:51.750 - 00:08:11.070

I try to–I try to stay out of trouble, but I would say I was upset, but I kind of–kind of just felt like getting upset wasn't going to get anywhere. It also never occurred to me to talk to our teachers or anybody else about it. It was far be-before this day and age where there's

00:08:11.070 - 00:08:29.150

a more public awareness of bullying and its effect. And so I felt like the best way for me to survive was to keep my mouth shut, stay out of their ways, and–and work my way out of that environment. And so—and that was my life.

00:08:29.150 - 00:08:42.390

I think–I think later on in life when I feel more comfortable talking about it, or even later on when I was in college, when I visited, I–I made up, I saw some of the kids who used to bully me. I felt like I was at a different place.

00:08:42.390 - 00:08:55.650

And–and–and the interaction also was not as bad as I thought it would. And I felt like also, my faith in Christ has also helped me to work on—in terms of forgiving them because I think they didn't know any better. Yeah.

00:08:57.160 - 00:09:08.110

EM: Yeah. For sure. EM: Yeah, I'm sorry you had to go through that, but— DH: Yeah, I–I don't think my—the situation I endured was hard—as–as hard as some of DH: the people face today, like sometime you hear.

00:09:08.620 - 00:09:22.360

DH: So, I'm grateful. DH: I'm grateful for the Lord helping me. DH: And I'm grateful that I feel like, because of my faith, I think I didn't become DH: deeply embittered—because I felt like it could end up that way, but

00:09:22.360 - 00:09:26.680

DH: I'm just grateful I didn't. DH: I didn't get that—get there. DH: Yeah. EM: Yeah. For sure.

00:09:27.190 - 00:09:38.460

EM: And I guess in general, how would you say that your faith kind of shaped you as a EM: person growing up? DH: Yeah, absolutely. DH: Because I think my father's passing definitely—

00:09:40.950 - 00:09:54.450

DH: because, I mean, I grew up in–in as a, you know, just a–a tiny kid. DH: My earliest memory was going to church. DH: So, you know, but early on in–in church, I think it was very DH: much just really a social circle.

00:09:54.450 - 00:10:11.130

DH: I–I prayed, but I prayed for toys and better grades. DH: I was just going through the motions. DH: And I think, really, it's my father's passing that–that caused me to DH: consider the issue of death, the issue o-of God, of

00:10:11.130 - 00:10:26.820

DH: eternal life. DH: And I felt like—and so I feel like God as father DH: is a very significant understanding for DH: my life that for me to understand my life that I was not

00:10:26.820 - 00:10:39.840

DH: fatherless. And I have a Heavenly Father who loves me and who is going to be DH: with me and support me. DH: A-And so, yes, absolutely. DH: I would say that my father's passing and–and my—a-and that

00:10:39.840 - 00:10:54.710

DH: —how that furthered my–my faith in DH: God, I think, deeply shaped my life and the trajectory DH: of my life. Yeah. EM: Yeah. That's–that's so beautiful to hear.

00:10:54.710 - 00:11:13.340

EM: And I'm glad you're able to kind of undergo that journey. EM: I guess transitioning to current day, can you talk a little bit about the camp EM: that you run with children and their parents a-at your church? DH: Yeah. Well, th-this particular–this particular camp, it's actually adult

00:11:13.340 - 00:11:29.330

DH: children and their parents and in particular having to do with, you DH: know, some of the adult children who wish to see their parents DH: also come into faith. DH: And—but I think the—just two years in the pastoral

00:11:29.840 - 00:11:48.800

DH: ministry working with people, just I—this is a area where I have a DH: unique interest in and also realizing that the issue isn't oftentimes just some DH: sort of conversion, that the goal isn't just trying to somehow DH: to forcefully converting parents to

00:11:48.800 - 00:12:08.660

DH: their children's religious belief, but that I think a lot of DH: time the generational relationship there are a lot of DH: unspoken on issues and—that we never get to address. DH: And so I find that—and so one of our church's core values as a

00:12:08.660 - 00:12:24.950

DH: intergenerational—what we call "Chinese heritage church" or a immigrant DH: church—and then you have the further generational gap that's DH: caused by the immigration experience. DH: So, that's even–even if a family that grew up in the US or a family in China, I mean,

00:12:24.950 - 00:12:37.970

DH: they will still have these things. DH: But now for–for this kind of families, they have an added immigration DH: experience which f-caused the children's language and culture to be vastly DH: different from their parents.

00:12:37.970 - 00:12:53.240

DH: So, one of our core values is reconciling generations, which is we DH: felt like that the–that the generations long to come DH: together. And oftentimes what we are struggling with is that we're struggling with our love language.

00:12:53.240 - 00:13:08.570

We-it's-our love language can be very different. And I–I—if you're familiar with the concept of love languages, and so–and so, in a way, the way we express love to one another can often be lost in translations or come across being misunderstood.

00:13:09.110 - 00:13:28.430

So, I'm excited to see your project which –which I think is about this. And–and so a lot of time, though, it's not like we don't understand that "yeah, my dad yelled at me because he meant good for me, and he actually loves me." Or he—or, "my mom pushed me about this because he

00:13:28.430 - 00:13:46.250

wants—she wants the best for me." So, it's not for a lack of comprehension that the intention is not evil. However, the reconciliation requires more than just the understanding of the intention, but really requires

00:13:48.140 - 00:14:08.450

a deeper understanding and communication with each other to– to–to make peace, really, to be able to even be able to honestly share about what we felt a-at those moments and to be able to hear each other. And so this is a unique thing, I think, for adult children, because when we're

00:14:08.450 - 00:14:23.630

younger sometimes you don't feel like you're at an equal footing to be able to communicate that way. And so–and so this–this camp has a lot to do with how we are revisiting our past, revisiting our

00:14:23.810 - 00:14:36.920

history with parents. And a lot of times, you know, family histories are lost pretty easily. You know, we don't have historians. We don't have Asian American archives to–to archive all/some of these things.

00:14:36.920 - 00:14:53.360

Some stories or even some tidbits could be easily forgotten; dementia and other things, busyness. So, I—so as part of the preparation for this camp, you know, we–we– we really equip our st–our adult children to really

00:14:53.660 - 00:15:10.700

revisit, to research, to understand, to interview their parents and to build relationships from almost rebuilding it and gaining a new perspective, a new appreciation for each other. And in doing so building bridges for which we can go deeper in

00:15:10.700 - 00:15:28.910

conversations. And so I'm excited to see, you know, your project because I feel poetry—sometimes these communications through just everyday language may not be adequate. And so poetry embodies metaphors and symbolism and things might be able to

00:15:28.910 - 00:15:45.200

communicate more. So, yeah. I—so that's it—a little bit about the parents camp where–where we want to rebuild those relationships: sharing stories, revisit stories, getting fresh understanding about one anothers' past in order to have the bridge to

00:15:45.200 - 00:15:57.040

discuss things such as faith or such as how-why we see things differently in–in relationship. Yeah. EM: Yeah, that is such an id-like, amazing idea for a camp.

00:15:57.040 - 00:16:09.910

EM: And it's also very unique. EM: Like, I don't think I've ever heard of such a camp for adult children before. EM: Yeah, during my interview with Helen, she– she also mentioned that, like, a lot of the EM: work takes place before the camp, like preparatory work.

00:16:09.940 - 00:16:23.530

DH: Right, right, right. EM: And during the camp is–is when, like the–the parents finally find out, like, all this EM: work [DH: Right.] that's been going on, [DH: Right.] which is so cool. EM: [DH: Yeah.] So if you remember any, like, specific heartwarming moments you've had in

00:16:23.530 - 00:16:35.980

EM: this camp or–or you've seen over the years? DH: Yeah. DH: You know, we really–we really only did it one time because, like, the DH: other times we were trying to run, we–we ran into Covid, so we went into the quarantine

00:16:35.980 - 00:16:53.470

DH: together. So, this is the second time we're running this. DH: But during [coughs] during that first camp, one DH: I think very, very touching moment was our biggest—there was DH: a point where we have a—you know, in–in these—in the Bible,

00:16:53.770 - 00:17:12.220

DH: footwashing is a–a ceremony and a symbol. DH: When Jesus did the footwashing for his disciples to show the extent of his love for DH: them, that–that–that love caused him, their master wouldn't to DH: takes the role of the lowest of servant to serve them and

00:17:12.220 - 00:17:29.980

DH: show them–and show them that—how Christian leadership and love need to take this DH: form, that he said, "I as your master, I wash your feet and you need to wash one DH: another's feet." So, we actually have a point where our–our–our campers wash DH: their parents feet and explain—and also share–and also share some—a–

00:17:30.160 - 00:17:49.420

DH: a just—some–some personal words to their parents DH: in public. And so in–in one particular—and then those were very, DH: very touching moment that was just not a dry eyes in the–in the–in the room DH: and one–one young man who shared and–

00:17:49.720 - 00:18:09.940

DH: and he apologized to his mom for– DH: for–for being a coward when he DH: was younger, when his dad was abusing his mom, DH: and that he asked her for forgiveness because he

00:18:09.940 - 00:18:28.390

DH: wasn't courageous enough to stand up to his dad, but was only DH: hoping that mom would not leave the house and–and just abandon DH: them. So, he felt like he had failed to protect his DH: mom. And–and by this point, his–his dad has already passed away.

00:18:29.050 - 00:18:45.210

DH: And I just thought that–that was just a extremely DH: painful and beautiful moment because it was addressing a kind of pain that DH: I think many would not want to revisit, y DH: ou know.

00:18:45.690 - 00:19:04.500

But I felt like, whether it be the child, the adult child is feeling sense of guilt? Or I think by sharing that, I think it helps bring a healing to the mom, who probably have also accumulated for many years from the abuse and the loneliness and—yeah.

00:19:07.310 - 00:19:17.510

EM: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. EM: And yeah that's–that's very heavy. EM: But I'm happy that they are able to have that moment and kind of express that finally EM: after so many years.

00:19:18.420 - 00:19:35.280

DH: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I th-I think, you know, like, I think– DH: I think there are–there are things in our lives that DH: sometimes we–we do not have the words or the courage or the context DH: to revisit.

00:19:35.730 - 00:19:54.270

DH: So we tend to end up kind of just choose to bury them or hoping that DH: either they just go away or just not deal with it. DH: But I think when we still have the time with our loved DH: one. I think when you are able to go to those places, then I

00:19:54.270 - 00:20:11.040

DH: think the relationship go to a–a new place of intimacy and depth DH: of understanding. DH: And so yeah, I was very–I was very touched and–and very grateful DH: for the courage and the love, I think that was poured out in a–in a

00:20:11.040 - 00:20:18.280

DH: setting like that. Yeah. EM: It seems like a very beautiful moment. EM: Yeah. DH: That it was.

00:20:18.640 - 00:20:29.750

DH: It was. Yeah, I was thankful. DH: I think it's God's work in there, I think, so I'm very–I'm very thankful to–to be a DH: witness to–to that. EM: Yeah, for sure.

00:20:29.750 - 00:20:41.720

EM: And also let me know at any point if you want to pause or anything, it's— DH: Sure. No problem, no problem. DH: We could-can make u-good use of our time here. EM: I guess moving on to your own family.

00:20:41.840 - 00:20:59.930

EM: Do—have any of the moments that you've seen at the camp kind of EM: inform the way that you raise your own kids? DH: You know, I would like to, DH: but I think I have to confess that it's actually a little harder with my own family

00:20:59.990 - 00:21:17.960

DH: [laughs] than with other people's family, you know? DH: I guess that's why, you know, you can't do your own counseling and stuff like that, and DH: so—no, but it does make me reflect. DH: And we–and we want to grow in that area.

00:21:17.960 - 00:21:36.230

DH: My two kids are both fully grown up and out of the house, and DH: I feel–I feel our relationships have grown. DH: I feel that looking back on my relationship with my own kids or–or–or my DH: wife and our relationship with our own kids, there are many things I'm very proud

00:21:36.230 - 00:21:52.300

DH: and very grateful for. DH: And there are many things that I regret—that I wish I've DH: done it differently. I wish I was more bus- less busy. DH: I wish I was more thoughtful.

00:21:52.300 - 00:22:12.470

DH: I wish I was wiser in how I DH: handle my own emotion or even situations. DH: So—and I find that many parents have these various DH: both highlights where they will cherish, as well

00:22:12.590 - 00:22:30.940

DH: as lowlights which they regret. DH: And I felt like in more recent years, at times DH: we were able to talk about some of these things together. DH: And I felt like when somehow the conversation is able to get there naturally,

00:22:31.750 - 00:22:47.050

DH: it–it grows our relationship deeper. DH: Yeah, but it's not always easy. DH: And–and we're still–we're still work in progress. EM: Yeah. Thank you so much for your honesty.

00:22:47.050 - 00:23:02.440

EM: And it definitely is true that working on your own family is a lot harder than working EM: with other people's families. EM: But I also think that kind of being able to retrospectively EM: understand, like, both the lowlights and the highlights is the mark of a good parent.

00:23:02.440 - 00:23:15.760

EM: So, I'm glad you're, you know, you're there. DH: Well, I-I-I-I like to think that's a part of what I'm thankful for Ch- DH: for our faith in Christ, because I feel like that's what our true DH: humanity is, right?

00:23:16.150 - 00:23:31.480

DH: We–we aspire for excellence and the good and the beautiful. DH: But the truth is, a lot of times we don't even know what that is until we also truly DH: have experienced the ugly and the broken and the dark DH: moments that we have.

00:23:31.480 - 00:23:41.860

DH: We all struggle. DH: And so–And so, yes, I feel like DH: that's a part of, like, every one of our journeys, we will all struggle with these DH: things. Yeah.

00:23:42.890 - 00:24:00.730

EM: Yeah, absolutely. EM: And I guess, more specifically, do you have any memories or EM: examples of ways that you express love to your kids as they were growing up? DH: Sure. You know, there are different things, you know, from

00:24:00.730 - 00:24:14.710

DH: the pretty mundane things, you know, like– like my DH: son went to Bellaire High School and, you know, DH: we're not zoned to Bellaire. DH: So, he goes to Bellaire through the Vanguard.

00:24:15.310 - 00:24:30.370

DH: I dunno if you're familiar with some of the high school—I don't know if you—so–so we're DH: –we're in Houston Independent School District, so our f-our home is on the west DH: side of the city, but Bellaire is one of the top high schools. DH: So he–he somehow was able to get in, but so —and so he

00:24:30.820 - 00:24:47.620

DH: took co-his commute to school; it's long and very early, like, 6:00 in the DH: morning. He has to be at the bus stop and go to school. DH: And so I just recall there were times where, you know, we see him stayed up late DH: doing work, and I just feel like he wasn't getting enough sleep in the morning.

00:24:47.620 - 00:25:02.380

DH: So I just say, "Hey, you know, why don't you sleep in a little bit more? DH: I'll take you into school today." And it's really out of the way, you know, I–I hate DH: fighting the traffic going in, but I f-I would—and then so sometimes I wouldn't want DH: to take him. But then I was hoping that maybe when I—wh-when drive in there, maybe we

00:25:02.380 - 00:25:11.080

DH: can have more conversation. DH: But a lot of the time, he just passed out, you know, he's so tired, you know? DH: So–so— DH: But I–I was grateful to be able to take him in.

00:25:11.260 - 00:25:31.630

DH: And that's kind of a mundane thing of—act of love, to–to DH: just giving rides, I suppose, you know— DH: and so m-my schedule, my work schedule are busy, DH: a–a lot of time on weekends as a pastor, there's a lot of activities and other

00:25:31.630 - 00:25:43.090

DH: things. And so fighting for time together, I think is–is nice. DH: So, one of the things we're trying to do is just to do breakfast, like a father and son DH: breakfast together to talk. DH: So, I'm big on breakfast.

00:25:43.450 - 00:25:56.950

DH: And so I'll be able to say, "Hey, how about we do breakfast today?" And so we go and get DH: a big breakfast and be able to talk. DH: A-And often that's some of the places where we get to talk about some bigger things about DH: life and–and–and–and so forth.

00:25:57.340 - 00:26:11.620

DH: And so I mean, in fact, my son is home right now, but he's actually DH: in–i-in Bulgaria right now, but he's home this–this week till DH: –till next—till Monday. DH: So, we were just talking about, "Hey–hey, you know, maybe we can still grab a breakfast

00:26:11.620 - 00:26:27.820

DH: before you go back together." So that's always kind of a–a father and son DH: thing. Yeah, that–that be two small example, if—unless you w- DH: you want a couple more examples— EM: Yeah, however many you're comfortable sharing.

00:26:28.120 - 00:26:42.400

DH: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. DH: I mean, I–I would say, you know, I feel a– a–a–a–a DH: part of it that's related to, again, our faith is the time that I DH: spend praying for him.

00:26:43.540 - 00:26:59.410

DH: I—th-there are times where—when our own relationship is DH: strained, whether because he said things or did things DH: that–that's very insensitive or I said things or did DH: things that was impulsive.

00:27:00.040 - 00:27:15.430

DH: There are times where I—we–we both struggle to communicate with DH: each other. And so there are times where— when I can calm down and I feel like I–I need DH: to seek the Lord's help. DH: And so I will pray for myself to–to know how to

00:27:15.850 - 00:27:30.040

DH: talk to my son. DH: And also–and so also pray for him, how God can work DH: in his life and also sometimes for his forgiveness for me. DH: You know, when–when I–I—when I may not be living out

00:27:30.310 - 00:27:48.310

DH: what I teach and I preach about—and–and–and that DH: . Actually, by the way, the breakfast and things like that is also the same routine I DH: have with my daughter, too, and then we enjoy doing that a lot. DH: So yeah, it was a–it was a couple–a couple things that I think

00:27:48.310 - 00:28:03.970

DH: I feel that we–that we DH: do love each other. DH: And so one of the things we try to do before he– DH: before he went away to college was that we –we

00:28:04.630 - 00:28:18.160

DH: did the MS150 together. DH: We said we want to do, like, a father son thing, because over the years, we've done DH: some father son camp, camping out, and do similar thing. DH: And so right before he went away to UT, we–we took the

00:28:18.160 - 00:28:30.820

DH: MS150, which is the–the–the cycling, the cycling event from DH: Houston to Austin. DH: So, uh, two–two dads and two sons, one of his best friends, DH: we did that together.

00:28:31.390 - 00:28:51.010

DH: So, that's kind of a–a highlight–highlights for DH: us. I–I run and so—I- DH: I've not run many, but I finished one marathon, and DH: for some reason that he also chose to want to run a marathon.

00:28:51.010 - 00:29:07.980

DH: And he did a couple of years back, and I remember I was there at the finish line DH: to–to see him and–and a-actually ever since then he has DH: stopped running. [laughs] He wasn't interested anymore. DH: But–but I felt like—but I felt like he— there's a lot of things that–

00:29:08.520 - 00:29:26.370

DH: that we shared that–that I liked, I loved, and he also liked, he also loved. DH: I grew up in Boston area, so I follow the sports teams in Boston DH: area, the Red Sox, the Celtics, the Patriots. DH: He was born and raised in Houston, Texas.

00:29:26.370 - 00:29:46.170

DH: But for some strange reason, he follows the teams in Boston, too, DH: just because, you know, we–we both growing up, he–he grew up watching me in–in that. DH: And so, I am very—I'm very proud of him and very–very and—y DH: eah, so there's a couple of examples.

00:29:46.880 - 00:30:03.050

EM: It's awesome. Yeah, I can feel the love kind of radiating from you when you talk about EM: your children. And I also think a lot of love is captured in these, EM: like, small or like, quote unquote "mundane" moments, like just, like, driving your kids EM: to school or, like, ri-showing up at the finish line.

00:30:03.080 - 00:30:16.670

EM: Even though these may seem small, I think when you look back, you kind of remember, EM: like, the way that your parent made you feel even if you don't remember all these EM: specific details. EM: So it's good that you're able to spend quality time with them and kind of show up

00:30:16.670 - 00:30:27.830

EM: for them. I think that's really good. DH: Yeah, I mean, that-that's when I do able to make time. DH: But there are many times where I was not. DH: And so that's r-absolutely part of the challenge in that.

00:30:27.830 - 00:30:39.260

DH: And so yes. EM: Yeah for sure. Yeah. Families are never perfect. EM: But it's great y'all are making an active effort. EM: [DH: Yeah.] I guess would you describe your love towards your children as

00:30:39.260 - 00:30:58.390

EM: primarily verbal or primarily their actions or anything else? DH: Ah. DH: You know, it's an interesting question because typically I would DH: say Asian parents, you know, we struggle a bit with verbal or physical affection.

00:30:58.390 - 00:31:12.670

DH: You know, our love language tend to be works of service, you know, or gifts. DH: I–I feel I do–I do also lean DH: on works of service. DH: Like, a lot of times I like to make breakfast for them.

00:31:12.670 - 00:31:26.740

DH: When they got up, they already have breakfast for them, because if they DH: do it themselves, they probably end up not eating much. DH: I'm kind of a big person on breakfast. DH: But I also would like to

00:31:28.540 - 00:31:44.590

DH: verbally encourage them and–and DH: physically hug them. DH: And so I'm not quite sure if one is a predominant, but I would say I'm probably DH: still predominant in works of service

00:31:44.830 - 00:32:03.370

DH: just because I would say my parents showed their love for DH: me mostly through works of service. DH: And I feel that my wife is always challenging me, DH: that–that I need to grow more into the quality time part of

00:32:03.370 - 00:32:17.950

DH: it. And–and I'm always struggling when it comes to quality time. DH: But yes. DH: I–I would say it's probably still works of service and to some degree, physical DH: affection and–and words of affirmation.

00:32:17.950 - 00:32:27.890

DH: Yeah. EM: Yeah. That's wonderful. EM: And would you say that you and your wife show love in different acts of—or different EM: love languages? Or is this—

00:32:27.890 - 00:32:42.560

DH: Yes, a little bit different? DH: I've seen my wife is definitely a–a more of a–a quality time kind of person. DH: But also works of service as–as you feel like works of DH: service is a very Chinese, Asian way.

00:32:42.560 - 00:33:01.940

DH: When we struggle to show affection or DH: say the words, then we end up doing some sort of works of service DH: to show that what we str-struggle to verbalize. DH: I—my wife tend to verbalize more through writing.

00:33:03.020 - 00:33:17.930

DH: She has a hard time saying it, so she write long letters to them. DH: Cards and things like that, or long emails and stuff. DH: I–I–I wou-I'm be-being a preacher and–and communicator in my DH: work, I–I tend to have a little less issue.

00:33:17.930 - 00:33:32.140

DH: I like–I like to verbally commit to tell them how proud and how— DH: what are some of the things I see in them that I'm grateful for? DH: Yeah. EM: Yeah. That's awesome.

00:33:32.140 - 00:33:41.500

EM: It sounds like you–you two work well together. EM: I guess even if you don't speak the same love language exactly towards your kids, the EM: combo of–of— DH: Yeah, yeah.

00:33:41.500 - 00:33:53.860

DH: I would say–I would say yes. DH: We–we–we learn–we learn how to–how—we're still tr-learning how to try to—how to do DH: that. So we–we just most recently DH: celebrated our–our 30th anniversary.

00:33:53.860 - 00:34:08.110

DH: And so we–we did a–a vow renewal ceremony at our church. DH: And so we're grateful both of our kids came back, and Nathan came DH: back from Bulgaria for this. DH: And then Hannah also came in from Dallas.

00:34:08.110 - 00:34:25.360

DH: And so we're very–we're very thankful and very DH: grateful. We're far from a perfect family. DH: We get on each other's nerves quite easily, and–and we worry about each DH: other. And there are things we still struggle to communicate well, but I feel

00:34:25.360 - 00:34:34.500

DH: like something we'll continue to work on. DH: Yeah. EM: Yeah. Congratulations to you and your wife for your 30 year anniversary. EM: That's amazing.

00:34:34.560 - 00:34:46.140

DH: Thanks. EM: I guess moving on to a question about tough love. EM: Do you have any thoughts on, like, tough love and parenting? EM: If there are any benefits that you see or are you against it?

00:34:48.170 - 00:35:03.350

DH: No, I definitely think I-I'm not against it. DH: I definitely think it's needed. DH: I don't think I'm very good at it. DH: In fact, if you interview my wife, she would say I am the softy

00:35:03.890 - 00:35:19.340

DH: in our family. In fact, she's the one that tend to be stronger at DH: issuing tough love. DH: I am not as great at tough love. DH: Probably because I would say my dad passed away early and my mom was not good at tough

00:35:19.340 - 00:35:35.900

DH: love with me. And so I tend not to be very good at tough love either. DH: If there's any tension and things like that— and oftentimes I'm the one that will DH: reach out to just to say, "Hey, is everything okay? DH: Are you doing all right?" You know, I–I–I tend, and–and I–I tend

00:35:35.900 - 00:35:52.580

DH: to error on the side of being maybe a little too gracious and DH: too quickly giving in. DH: So, Cheryl sometimes will criticize me for—say, "Ah, you know, DH: you–you know, you're so soft, and–and now you force me to be the bad

00:35:52.580 - 00:36:11.270

DH: guy to play the–the–the–the black face, you know, the–the—to–to be the tough— DH: the bad guy in the family, the bad cop." And so I have to apologize to DH: her. And so, anyway, so—but–but I do believe it. DH: I do believe that there are things where you have to draw those

00:36:11.270 - 00:36:25.790

DH: lines, or else they can't–they can't learn it well. DH: But I have to admit, I'm not very good at it. DH: I–I e-even as a leader, I'm not one who loves DH: confrontations and–and–and stuff like that.

00:36:25.790 - 00:36:41.830

DH: Yeah. I'm just kind of—I'm more—I–I–I—this just not me. EM: Yeah, [laughs] I think yeah, th-that's kind of similar to my family dynamic, I think. EM: I think my dad is more like softy, and then my mom is more, like, on the tough love end EM: as well. Yeah.

00:36:42.610 - 00:36:56.500

EM: And I guess if you feel comfortable sharing, do you recall any, like, specific EM: misunderstandings or conflicts between you and your children? DH: Sure. There are plenty of those. DH: You know–

00:37:00.610 - 00:37:19.390

DH: you know, where can I even begin, plenty of things or misunderstandings, you DH: know? Let me think of what would be some good DH: examples. You know–you DH: know, I-I'm using my son as an example more because my daughter and I, we

00:37:19.390 - 00:37:33.670

DH: tend to–we tend to—we're more alike in temperament. DH: And so we tend to have less conflict, and sh-we tend to be much more DH: easily understanding of each other. DH: And my son's temperament is a little bit more like my–my wife.

00:37:33.670 - 00:37:49.210

DH: And sometimes we are more easily get on each other's nerves or–or become DH: impatient with each other. DH: So, you know, o-one DH: thing that I–I find that when he was younger and–and–and

00:37:49.810 - 00:38:05.020

DH: nowadays a little better is that there are times where I could have a DH: break—because, you know, sports is one of the, kind of, mindless thing that we get to DH: talk about with each other. DH: So sometimes, you know, expressing opinions about sports

00:38:05.020 - 00:38:19.780

DH: teams or players, it's just very common to have that kind of conversation. DH: And, you know, I'm actually not as much of an athlete. DH: I mean, I run, but I'm not really very good as an a-ath-a-as athlete. DH: But I do have a lot of opinions about sports and stuff.

00:38:19.780 - 00:38:35.140

DH: So, there are times where—when I like to pontificate about DH: how I see this team, I say, "Oh, he's not trying hard enough," or I say, "Oh, that's a DH: terrible coaching move," or say things like that. DH: Sometimes I would espouse a critical spirit toward these

00:38:35.140 - 00:38:44.650

DH: things. And for some reason, my son DH: hates that. DH: He absolutely hates that. DH: He feels that–that I'm just being critical.

00:38:44.650 - 00:38:57.310

DH: And–and I don't even play the sports that well. DH: I don't have no right to criticize. DH: And so we end up being-getting into arguments about these things, which gets my m DH: -my wife all worked out because she says, like, "This is the dumbest thing to get

00:38:57.310 - 00:39:12.790

DH: arguing over. And then you guys get mad at each other?" and so forth, and this happened DH: quite a bit until I—i-it really sunk in for me that, you know, I need to stop. DH: I need to stop doing that. DH: So, and I–and then I also had to communicate to him that just realizing that, you know,

00:39:12.790 - 00:39:28.300

DH: it's not something that's worse for us to get all bent out of shape for—so DH: that, you know, that–that would be one of those things. DH: And I remember one time, you know, we had a conversation where—you know, we DH: –we never really push our kids really hard academically.

00:39:30.160 - 00:39:47.660

DH: We always feel like, "Hey, you know something? DH: We want you to be able to do your best, but we don't— DH: we don't see, you know, somehow going to the best DH: school, getting the best grades, as the high achievement

00:39:48.470 - 00:40:05.600

DH: that we long for in your life." And we will say that, you know, "For us, DH: we want to see character. DH: We want to see you growing up as a compassionate, responsible, loving DH: adult; somebody who will serve others well and

00:40:05.990 - 00:40:23.300

DH: love Jesus and not—" Success in our eyes is not DH: just academic. DH: So, but then there was one time—and–and so DH: as a result o-our kids, they do well, but they are not the

00:40:23.300 - 00:40:39.800

DH: kind who, like—they're not like the high flyers who, you know. DH: So–So one time he blurted out—and DH: —about how he was upset. DH: And I said—he said, "You know, if you guys had pushed us harder,

00:40:40.190 - 00:40:55.250

DH: I think I would've achi-achieved more," you know? DH: And that kind of took us really by surprise in this conversation because we felt like, DH: "Wow," you know, I said, "You know, I think you enjoyed a lot of the benefits of us not DH: pushing you hard like some of the other families and stuff." You know, we try not to

00:40:55.250 - 00:41:08.900

DH: send them–them up to too many activities. DH: We try to be a little more choosy and stuff like that. DH: I said, "What, you know, what are you talking about?" And so–and so that was a DH: very eye-opening conversation, which—but then later on he–he

00:41:08.900 - 00:41:25.550

DH: apologized to it and he realized that he said that, "You know, no, it's–it's not DH: totally your fault," you know, I-he s-he said, "It's myself, too, but it's just that DH: sometimes I–I wish—maybe I wish that if–if you have pushed me harder, DH: maybe it would be something would to be different in–in this and that." And so

00:41:25.730 - 00:41:40.560

DH: yeah, we have these conversations or those interesting that I just didn't a-anticipate DH: for it to come up. DH: Yeah. EM: Yeah for sure. It's–it's great that you guys were able to have that conversation openly

00:41:40.560 - 00:41:48.570

EM: though. And yeah, kind of get that off the shoulders. EM: Yeah. DH: Right, right. DH: Because I–I–I th-I think, I–I think to—

00:41:50.260 - 00:42:09.540

DH: I think–I think authentic relationship DH: and love should create the safety and the space DH: where it doesn't mean people can just say whatever, but that it should create a safety DH: and space where we can share how we honestly felt in a thoughtful and kind and respectful

00:42:09.540 - 00:42:25.770

DH: way, but then for us to really understand how we are really feeling about things. DH: And I think a lot of misunderstanding happens because such space doesn't exist. DH: And so therefore we–we got it pent up in there, you know, and–and–and DH: that–that's somethings to us too.

00:42:26.460 - 00:42:37.620

DH: Yeah. EM: Yeah for sure. EM: And then I guess moving on to my favorite question. EM: Could you describe the feeling that you had when your baby was born and you saw them for

00:42:37.620 - 00:42:51.810

EM: the first time? So I guess this s-could apply to your son or your daughter or both? DH: Sure. Yeah, I you know, I was— DH: well, first of all, I was exhausted when our son was born because it was a long labor. DH: It was very hard for Cheryl.

00:42:52.200 - 00:43:02.970

DH: His head was in the wrong way. DH: He was in the wrong position. DH: So we had to kind of get him back to the—he was in the bre-breech position to get him in DH: the right position. My wife was beginning to develop a fever.

00:43:03.510 - 00:43:18.560

DH: It was really hard. So, we were exhausted. DH: But seeing him, we were just so DH: relieved, grateful, amazed, a DH: nd scared!

00:43:19.010 - 00:43:34.340

DH: Scared, we were saying, "Oh, no." [laughs] "You know, we're going to be, like parents. DH: You know, we know nothing. DH: You know, we're going to be like—we're going to pr-bring this guy home, and this is—we DH: just–we just get to go home?" And so yeah, it was–it

00:43:34.340 - 00:43:49.460

DH: was amazing. It was amazing, both for Nathan and Hannah; when they were DH: born it was–it was a miraculous moment especially, DH: you know, say, between the two of them, my wife did have one miscarriage, and that was DH: very—that was very hard.

00:43:50.060 - 00:44:11.120

DH: But–but I think the–the birth of a–a child, it's DH: a incredibly—I felt proud and humble moment to DH: realize, "Oh, my goodness," you know, a–a-a- a life, a new DH: life in front of us and what that means in terms of response.

00:44:11.120 - 00:44:23.990

DH: I–I realized that at that time, my—even my amazement, I thought I really DH: barely understood the responsibility that ki-came with DH: having a baby in my life. DH: Yeah.

00:44:25.940 - 00:44:38.420

EM: Yeah. Congratulations to you and your wife for building a beautiful family. DH: Yeah. Yeah, we're very grateful. DH: I mean, there were hard moments. DH: There were hard moments for us—moments when family members got ill,

00:44:38.420 - 00:44:56.390

DH: when, you know, my wife struggled with depression. DH: When work demands and pressure got too high. DH: I think there were many moments where we felt we weren't sure DH: how we can make it, but I felt like God's love

00:44:57.350 - 00:45:15.170

DH: enable us to keep on loving DH: and stay humble and realizing that DH: our inadequacy is okay and that–and that–and that—that there's a DH: stronger love that can hold us, that can hold us up.

00:45:15.320 - 00:45:31.250

DH: So, we're very–very—we're very–very thankful to be at this point with DH: our kids and, yeah, they are–they are DH: pride and joy in our lives. EM: Yeah. That's so heartwarming to hear.

00:45:31.610 - 00:45:47.480

EM: And I guess if your children were to see this interview in the future, what is a EM: message that you would want to leave them? DH: Well, I think–I think I really— DH: I think I really believe that–t

00:45:48.920 - 00:46:05.480

DH: hat God will have a great plan for their lives. DH: And I pray that–that–that they DH: would—that they will be able to love well in their own DH: families in their life and that they would know that–

00:46:05.930 - 00:46:23.670

DH: that their parents, as imperfect as they are DH: , love them a great deal. DH: And–And today want DH: to—we're excited to see them becoming our peers,

00:46:24.440 - 00:46:43.170

DH: and not just–and not just our subordinate or our DH: ch-children. So seeing them enter into adulthood, coming to becoming DH: responsible, loving people who serve others and DH: understanding the nature of love is to serve and love and give

00:46:43.170 - 00:46:55.490

DH: oneself selflessly. DH: I think this is the greatest joy in our lives. EM: That's so beautiful. EM: And those are all the questions I had prepared for today.

00:46:55.490 - 00:47:11.340

EM: But do you have anything additional you want to add? DH: No, I–I think–I think, you know, I w-I want to thank DH: you, Emily, for this opportunity because I–I was kind of thinking about it this morning DH: about, you know, how this is going to be, but I thought this would be a–a great chance

00:47:11.340 - 00:47:28.590

DH: for me to—maybe to revisit some of these things. DH: And I felt like i-it's not often that we get to take a break from our DH: day to think about these important—but often DH: we, you know, we hurry through—relationships and things.

00:47:28.590 - 00:47:42.090

DH: So, I want to thank you for–for a chance to– to revisit that. DH: Yeah. EM: Yeah. Of course. And thank you so much for your–for your time and for sharing your–your EM: beautiful stories and then also for being so honest and transparent about your own

00:47:42.450 - 00:47:49.230

EM: famil-family. I think it shows a level of vulnerability that's very mature. EM: And yeah, thank you so much for sharing.