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Today is September 30 1969. We're at uh Research Center Found Library. This is Polly Moore. The interviewee today is uh Doctor Parsons, professor of Fine Arts at Rice. This is um interview number 67. That's what the rule. All right, sir. Um Just to check this microphone

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setting, let me um just leave it right. Yeah, you can just leave it right there. It should pick you up just fine. Uh So just your normal conversation tone. Just give me your address and just enough so that I can 645 Mulberry Lane, Bella. Mm Hello,

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Doctor Parsons. I um uh want to uh just recount for the record here. Some of the things we've been talking about uh in these interviews. I'd like some background on uh what your concerns and and predispositions were as far as the office of, of president itself

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in a university such as rice could uh to get at that. Could I ask uh what it meant to you personally? When Kenneth Pitzer resigned? Well, I was over in Europe at the time on the sabbatical leave and I think camping along the shores of the

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Aegean down below Athens when I first heard word of it and I felt at once it was gonna mean considerable loss because I knew both in time and in his sense of direction. Now, I've had mixed feelings have been a great admirer of Dr Hausen and

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felt a very deep uh affection and respect for the man and he played it very differently from Bitzer. Um You might say he played it out of his own pocket in a way that as soon as uh president, how did have to step down uh for

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the first time, we began to have a real qualification of things first under Mr Crony. And then when President Fitz Pitzer King, so that um in one way, this was to the good and I would imagine the younger people on the faculty uh wanted this in

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my initial talked to the President Hasan. I got what I felt from him verbally was the essence of tenure and the statement that satisfied me. And I really had more of a sense of knowing where I stood um in the arrangements as they were stated then

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and um not based on, on written codified things, but I just agreement between people. But I think with President Pitzer, the decision had been made to move into a much larger area or um much greater expanded activity. And a so he had to approach it in

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different ways. And I understand from others that he was a far better organizer then President Houston that in the larger departments, particularly he was um he played a much more active part in shaping and directing. So that I think President House, it was an attitude that

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I felt so strongly and uh I respected so highly and um rather than a um a very clearly defined program that particularly people in the, in the scientists uh welcomed very much. And um but I, I clearly feel that the president should have definite ideas. I

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mean, be a leader, have a definite philosophy of his own. Every one of us have our own ideas. But I think that the president needs to be far more than the administrator, he must be a leader. And uh we were discussing this the other day in

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relation to our uh current um acting president and the role of ambition. And I have a feeling that a good president or good applicant for present must be ambitious, not for personal uh power, but for ambitious in the way of having very definite ideas, philosophical ideas

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that he wants to put into action. And this gives the real drive to whatever leadership he has and whatever guidance he'll give to his faculty. And uh I think I've seen some schools where man may be an excellent administrator in just that sense, but uh it

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remains cold and uh I suppose at times a school can stand plateaus of this sort. But then I think you again got to have very alive leadership uh in terms of, of setting a direction and a, and a um if you want an attitude that uh

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will eventually touch everybody, because I think really an attitude is the most important single thing you bring out of a school, not uh not particular knowledge, but um my sense of values, but then, and then um shape whatever, whatever activity you go into, regardless of what,

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what direction it goes and whether you follow in your, in one particular professional area or another. Um I think this is the first role of a of the university is making you aware of a value system and your own responsibility at, at um developing the ability

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to make judgments beyond your professional area. And so I have very strong feelings as to the role of the college within the university as against the university, which is more concerned with training. I mean, if you want to go to the professional schools, and I had

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the feeling that Mr Pitzer was much more concerned with the university and with the college until he, some of his faculties spoke up and um with a considerable feeling of emotions as to teaching the role of teaching. Um there was no codification as to what a

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faculty member was supposed to look like when President Huston was here in Mr Pitcher's first talk to the faculty, he described a three, a three headed creature the first. Now whether, whether research was first or public image was first, I'm not quite sure, but he used

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to be a public person. He's supposed to be research and teacher. But teacher was clearly last. And I think in the role of the, the coming role of the faculty member as a procurer of grants, the public image in the research outweighs the teacher very greatly.

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And I'd always been raised to the idea that teacher was foremost, first responsibility. And I remember at Wisconsin, we had people who were expert at research and were given very little if any teaching load, their job was research and others who are expert at teaching. And

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so uh there was no pressure put on them for research, whatever research they did came out of their own curiosity and interest and so forth. But it wasn't a prerequisite. And I know there was considerable feeling really of apprehension on the part of many of the

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faculty after that first talk. And uh those who got to know president uh pitcher, I think developed a great deal of admiration for him and the quickness of his mind, the grasp of the total picture I never did get to know him. And uh um so

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all I can speak of is is uh just seeing you from the distance or faculty meetings or um seeing the change taking place in the university where I felt there was a great deal of um uh I say a greatly increasing role played by ambitious young

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people who had no necessary uh necessarily um send me attack. Nos nostalgia. No, no. Uh what had happened in the past was of no importance. Personalities didn't play any importance, the um labor for now and their own, their own careers, you might say, and if someone

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else had to take it in the neck, why it's just too bad. I felt a whole change in attitude on the part of me, the new younger faculty of the intense ambition, professional ambition. And this came about, I feel under uh the expansion program, I didn't

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miss a pitcher now. Well, this is just a natural thing or whether it's a, it's a new, uh, new generation, different quality than the people of my own generation or the one prior to that. Um, where's the Temple of the Times is much more intense. But

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I was very aware of this, very aware of the, um, I wouldn't call it political infighting or I, I don't think it had to do, it did affect probably departmental politics, but he was more in the, uh, I just sum it up in, in the thrift

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ambitious group that came in, particularly in the sciences. And, uh so that, that the unity within a department, the harmony and by harmony. I don't mean that they, they might not be at their others throats in terms of ideas. I've known some very, very uh alive

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departments where they were in very much in opposition to each other and would challenge each other publicly. So they sick their students on the other person when he was gonna be lecturing. But nevertheless, there was a, a stronger bond, there was a real bond within the

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department and a sense of loyalty to something more than one's own self. And I'm wondering if that isn't in some ways. Uh, I think, I think of the best. I don't know, I'm aware of this and perhaps it's size that again can cause this change. When

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you thought about a um president to replace uh Pitzer, did you have any special candidate in mind? Did you forget for submitting names to the committee or actually the few people that I knew of uh nat caliber? Now he was at that time, we'd already heard.

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I don't know how, what, what nature the grapevine, but that it would be in the area of the sciences. And this is about the same time the University of Texas was selecting someone in the um humanities university was constantly selected a new man who was uh

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who is in history, I believe. And the man who, one of my closest personal friends had turned down the vice presidency of the University of Wisconsin just before President Elian had died, um was a, he turned down because he wanted to paint. He's an art historian

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and was primary concern with uh the full administrative job would mean the end of all of his creative work in painting and mosaics. And um but at least the man they did select as president was a uh again in the humanities and yet they are very

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strong physics department and other science areas at the University of Wisconsin. So there was this feeling at that time on Thomas that uh um it would only be a person strong in either physics or chemistry, it would be considered. And uh so now it's swung the

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other way. And I think many of us felt uh on the current issue that no longer was it, who is the best man? But in the eyes of some of the people on the board, it had to be a person in the humanities. And I, I

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think this is wrong. I think a good man is going to protect all the areas rather than just see one. And I have a feeling that present pitcher uh became more and more aware of and began to build, I feel um the necessity of building throughout

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the entire university. While his understanding, his understanding of uh uh in terms of its own teaching was colored very much by his area of, of uh professional work. I'm friends in relation to biology, uh or in some other areas where a professor may feel that having

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two graduate students working on him is a full time job, Mr pitcher I think, felt that he could handle 12 or 15, whatever it was, and so they should be able to and the nature of their research would be very, very different. So this, this, uh,

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I recognize as a, you might say, uh, professional specialization that sometimes limits one. But I felt he was, he was concerned with the school as a whole and that was my impression that he was doing a very good job. Did you ever hear in the rumor

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mail, uh, uh, any particular candidate to you that alarmed you or that, uh, the one person I've heard of over in Greece was LBJ and my son meekly turned to me and I had been bring, brought this news by another Rice faculty member that we met

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in Athens. And my 15 year old son said, dad, what would you do? Would you resign? And I said, no, I've, I've stayed long enough at rice under all the conditions that we have had so that I, I feel I even a greater responsibility of staying

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and trying to see what I can do something like it be taken. And, uh, I mean, I couldn't, couldn't treat it very seriously, but still after returning to the campus, that was the first question I asked, who were they considering? And what about the rumor on

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the LBJ? And I was then told how the rumor got started and the various factors that led up to the speculation that were more in fun, although some people took it seriously. But, uh, I, and I think one of my feeling there was that a man

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like uh Johnson might be an excellent administrator, but I think you also have to be, have credit in terms of being believable. And I felt that even watching 1314 year old kids listen to Mr Johnson and give some of these addresses and see all the fake,

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all the straw men see the falseness of the arguments without any help from anyone else around them. And I think there's a lot of disillusionment there and I don't think a president can afford that. We're gonna be enough spec skeptical people already. And uh I don't

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know, I have very strong feelings about uh well, at Wisconsin, for instance, um we had a president who was very austere and just a sort of a mysterious figure on the campus that was Glenn Frank. But while he was there, the place was a hot bed

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of, of um controversy. It was the most, very stimulating, very live place and constantly under fire by the legislature or by newspaper edgers demanding that it be investigated. The man of back mccarthy, for instance, was most weakly asking places full of communists and so forth. But

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it was a great university under Frank. And then Dexter was brought in and been city manager of Cincinnati, a very able administrator, a calming influence. Well, soon he got rid of all the irritants, all the uh you might say rebels and everyone on the faculty got

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to know him open house at his house every Friday night. All the students, all the faculty were uh became frequent visitors to his home and the university dropped way down in standards from among the top five in the country in the thirties. It became uh possibly

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14th and 15th in a general quality rank ranking in a very short time. And he went out and became provost at UCL A later. But the sweetness and light did not produce a good university and the harmony that is the surface harmony did not give the

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uh the real stimulating vitality to the place. So I feel a university president should be ready to defend his university against the outside. And uh um really give the students the widest possible type of experience that is a proposing points of views because in the end,

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it's their ability to, to um make selections of hearing many points of view and finally make their own choices is going to be the mark of their education. And I feel that just like with our football team, as long as they're dependent on the coach to

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call every play, they're slaves. And I found when I've had to deal with football players as art students, they were helpless. They did not um the uh head of the physical Education department felt this and that's he was encouraging them to take the art courses, but

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they were completely helpless in using imagination. I'm taking initiative on anything regardless of whether they were pro football material. I mean, if, if, uh good, good uh, football material as far as uh coach dictating exactly what they were to do. And I feel that that the

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real mark of the uh, of an educated person is his ability to make decisions in diverse situations. Um and maybe brand new situations. And uh so I think the wider range of, of experiences that students can have through uh um through hearing many differing points of

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view and certainly on almost every subject, there can be a wide split. Um I given the opportunity to hear them and also the idea that eventually they can make responsible decisions, selecting their own, their own path. Uh He is a very, is a, is a major

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role of any of any university and the university has a better opportunity than the college and that it's much broader, it's a much broader base. And uh I don't know whether that feel either a person has to be believable in himself or capable of um stimulate

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that stimulating that. In fact, I mean, you have some leaders um or perhaps through opposition to you can have a, a um a larger feeling of uh something of this sort. Did you ever hear the Masterson's name um as a suggested candidate? Had you ever discussed

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any uh or what did you know him at all? Well, or? Well, he's curious and um he had, he had been the first person that I had discussed, really actively discussed finance department with and he asked me to meet him one day and we went out

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for a long walk and uh got it to ensure that there wouldn't be bloodletting in the architectural department. We were gonna have to do something because there was a real clash of personalities, the case of a man, a Mr Bart of me and those of us

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in the fine arts angle of the um or area of architecture that is of the art history. And the drawing were the ones mostly in opposition to this man. And um well, that isn't quite true because there were some on the strictly architecture who were uh

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also at odds, but we were more completely at odds with him, I would say. And so Bill had asked me if I'd meet with him and he talked about it quite a while and he said, I think an art department would be good on this campus.

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I don't know what value it has. But to see you out with a group of people under the trees, drawing looks good and it was appearances, no real understanding, but I find very few people on the campus still have any real realization. I think Mr Mack

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and any is one who really understands. Um and was one of the main main forces that it really uh helping us develop a finance department. But a lot of the faculty who may be well experienced in the earth humanities may have art objects in their own

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home. Lots of books on it, go to concert and so forth, still have very little understanding at all. But the role of an art department and I don't think Bill had any really, it just was an attractive idea that this looked good from the outside to

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see people actually making use of the uh of the campus itself. If you can somehow make it functional, then this makes it legitimate if that's it. And um I told him at that time, I had my exper my fill of administrative experiences and I didn't wish

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to be considered as a possible chairman and uh lots, a lot hangs from that. But anyway, it was a start. He was the one who actually uh discussed what sort of shape it might take as a beginning. And President Huston had put it into action that

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we would be a fine arts department in name and then service architecture in the same way that we've been doing in the past, but with a separate separate budget now, I guess our budget was, was still out of the architecture department, but we'd have a separate

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administrator. We would not be directly subject to architecture as far as our teaching was concerned. And later, um when things got a little rough within the architecture department, after I was out, I went up and saw so Miss Masterson. Um, well, I guess I'd gone up

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and seen Mr Croy and he'd said go over and tell Bill. And so I did and we had a long talk there about more of the problems existing in the architectural department at the time. And these are essentially my only experience with him. I had very

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deep concern about his attitudes as master uh particularly on little issues, like I say, little issues. It might be just what happened uh at a meal. And yet there were big issues in uh overall importance. I felt a matter of grace where um man Sunan know

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who's Unitarian want to have a um a sonnet grace and another student who was a, I don't know what, what persuasion he was, but he insisted that it had to any grace had to have the father, son and Holy Ghost and the Trinity recognized. And I've

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been told by the students at Madison rule that this was the case and he was very dictatorial within his college that he had been a splendid master until some something had gone wrong. And he felt that some of the students had um broken some faith or

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confidence. And then from that time on, it was um an absolute uh dictatorship. You might say they would work up a proposal, bring it to him. And he said, no, this is what I want you to accomplish. And I don't care how you do it. But

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take this down. Now, this is what I want you to go on and get put through. Now, this is what I've been told and I've been told this both at the faculty level and, and student level and the students, for the most part who had gone

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to Hanson, who were still on the campus had very strong feelings just as people in the library and the history department had strong feelings. I mean, they, they have expressed themselves to me. And so when his name was first mentioned at that meeting, and that's the

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first time I'd heard anything about his name, he mentioned, I had, well, I've gotten along with him beautifully myself. I had recognized that they were very definite potential for vindictiveness. And this is one reason why I voted against him because I felt this was a privilege

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or not a privilege. What would you call it? A? Uh Well, I guess you could call it that, that an administrator cannot, it's a luxury he can't afford. That is personal, um personal anger that comes out in, in any vindictive form, whatever this meeting that you're

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speaking of is the four o'clock meeting of the psych. Uh If I have done you correctly, you were not aware that uh he was the one who had been selected. I heard one word into the meeting itself and I didn't even know the meeting was taking

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place till our secretary called me about 15 minutes before I was in the middle of a class. So I dismissed my class, went over in the ring and walked in and was faced with a petition, a toll of, of and uh uh I signed the petition.

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My name was one of the two that they couldn't decipher. But um, and it was II, I felt well, Bill is someone I could live with. But, um, nevertheless, this is a, this one quality of not wanting to be opposed and uh taking it out in

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anger because I knew a number of, of cases where this had happened with Thad Marsh and, and a few others in the faculty where they, at least as far as we know, it was his feeling that someone had gone over his head or um uh as

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dean or that someone had opposed him. And uh there was no mercy. Did uh were you aware that uh that this objection to Masterson transcended the uh say the library staff and the history department? Were you aware that other whole departments would go up in arms?

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Uh Not to the extent after the meeting was over and walking out with some of the people, for instance, some of the old timers in English, I was surprised with the vehemence with which they spoke. They were just uh I mean, this was, this is just

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unthinkable. And so it wasn't, uh it wasn't a protest over the method of choice. Uh The more important thing was the, the choice of the man himself and, um, that it was a fearfulness as to what would happen, that the place would be just torn apart

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with factions. This was the expression I got from, uh, from a number of the men who had been here for many, many years, I mean, 2025 years. And, uh, I, I only personally knew one faculty member who was ready to vote for him. And he said

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he was a pupil of mine. I have known him as a personal friend for a long time. I'm not involved with the politics of the university any more. And so II, I know the rest of you feel differently, but I'll vote for it. But I mean,

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it was without any uh any strong passion. It was just, uh but that was the only vote of any faculty member I knew of. I talked with who's, who voted for him. And uh in a, in a very real way, I think it was very unfair

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to Masterson himself that uh he was brought here with that feeling existing on the campus, which could have been found out ahead of time. I think, I think it was, it was a very rough thing for him and perhaps very unfair way to be put on

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that spot. And for Mrs Masterson, because they both had, did have many friends and their families are here. And uh I guess the uh there had been hopes of masters and wealth from the rest of the family, um be more forthcoming for the university. But uh

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I'm interested in, in hearing your uh your observations about uh the faculty meeting. Uh You're one of the few who went in and attended without uh knowing in advance uh who was going to be selected. Well, it became electric. You might say that there was a

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tension throughout the, the place and, uh, with the fact that our chief executive officer wasn't there. And I was just told right away, he was caught over in El Paso, I believe by the weather, I became very, very fearful, uh, for, uh, the Chronis. And I

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saw that he was to, to preside because I knew he had been through some very serious illness and, and operation. And I had the feeling that during the course of the meeting, when those, when the names on the petition read off, he aged 10 years right

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before us and he just went gray and I just felt him growing older by the, by the second. And so I was, uh, I have a lot of feeling for carry and was quite worried there, what, what effect it might have on his health. But I

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think the, the, uh, the thing that amazed me was the intensity of the feeling on the part of, of the faculty, not the young ones might have been more vocal. But when, when the older men as well began to shout down in Richter who up to

00:35:45.310 - 00:36:04.429

that time had been, um, if not cheap chief spokesman. I mean, he had certain privileges, you might say, terminating meetings and so forth. And he spoke with a certain amount of authority that he once had had and for him to be told and just to shut

00:36:04.439 - 00:36:25.850

up and sit down. And this is funny, I think you better, uh, you normally have the product that term means, but I think I will say you'll go on this time and this was quite a blow. Uh, not, uh, an unforeseen one but, uh, it came

00:36:25.860 - 00:36:41.989

rather suddenly, but I mean, the display of emotions on the part of the fact that it was much stronger than I anticipated it might have happened on the campus because in fact, the meetings, you normally there may be strong feelings a in terms of academic argument,

00:36:42.939 - 00:37:06.979

but nothing like this at all. And, um, I think the thing that impressed me most was the, uh, appearance of Mr Allen that he really looked frightened as of for the first and he later I understood and told something else. He'd made million dollar mistakes for

00:37:06.989 - 00:37:27.070

Cameron steel and iron steel and, and that this hadn't, uh, none of this had ever shaken him like that fact that you do where he suddenly realized how much he had misjudged the human creation. No, I've had at least one long argument with Mr Allen in

00:37:27.080 - 00:37:53.870

the past. Um And uh so it, it was no surprise that he had taken along with other board members, the action they did, I mean, very arbitrary like, but uh Yani further question, be asked him. Best thing to do is when a person has made a

00:37:53.879 - 00:38:24.300

mistake, it just be quiet and just sort of make this helpless gesture and then sit down again. And uh so I think he understood the gravity of the uh of the situation very quickly. And, uh, but I, I had felt that the, the dean's action at

00:38:24.310 - 00:38:42.719

immediate standing up and congratulating Mr Allen on what they and the board had done and trying to terminate the meeting right? There was, uh as callous and that is a very bad thing so that, uh, while I felt for the man in the way, he was

00:38:42.729 - 00:39:02.989

cut down by the shouts, uh, he had a coming because he was, uh terribly rude and disrespectful to the rest of us, all members of the faculty. And I don't think, I think it was the finish as far as any real. I don't know, but I,

00:39:03.000 - 00:39:19.179

I have that feeling as far as any weight that you carry that time on. I think Dean Richter probably lost more ground than anyone else time to live action. You mentioned having had an earlier conversation with Mr Allen, which uh uh would have prepared you for

00:39:19.189 - 00:39:40.370

his making an arbitrary decision. Uh I might hear a little bit about that. He was a guest at Philosophical One night Philosophical Society and he was the guest of Mr Wish Meer and made some comment about the fact that faculty came into the faculty club without

00:39:40.379 - 00:40:02.510

neckties and jackets on. And I said, well, isn't it? There isn't their club and warm weather? I mean, um how can you as an outsider as a guest in the place? Find fault with this. This is their club supposedly. And uh, well, he, he went on,

00:40:02.520 - 00:40:21.669

he, he felt that the offer appearance, what faculty presented, I didn't realize he was on the board at that time, but that his appearance, that the appearance uh that you presented to guests was supposedly more important than your own in the comfort or relaxation and so

00:40:21.679 - 00:40:39.439

forth. And then he went on to the uh factor of, of students feeling the students should even wear jackets and ties for breakfast. And they did this in Harvard Business College and so forth. And I said, well, I thought this was supposed to be an educational

00:40:39.449 - 00:40:56.959

institution, Mr Allen. Well, what's that got to? And I said, well, if they're not capable of even making decision as to whether they wear a necktie or not, and then come out in the world as a full fledged citizen, uh without the capability of even making

00:40:56.969 - 00:41:14.689

a minor decision of this sort, how are they gonna make more important decisions? Now, what, what would you have to do. And I said, well, if a person doesn't want to bathe and, uh, gets smelly and so forth, he's gonna learn either that he may develop

00:41:14.699 - 00:41:32.060

a certain loneliness. And that only by a little more cleanliness, will he be able to get away from that loneliness? I mean, you pay a price, the more time you spend one thing, the less you get it somewhere else. But, uh, um, this is part of

00:41:32.070 - 00:41:49.979

education, of learning to live with another and find out what it means, not by following rules, but by active contact. And, uh, I think this should be left up to each individual as to how he dresses as his, his hair or when he bathes and so

00:41:49.989 - 00:42:08.879

forth and, uh, his, uh, he'll be educated by the reaction of those around him and how much he values those around him. Oh, just, you couldn't do this. And then he kept saying over and over again. Uh, look, when, when you get married you gotta wear

00:42:08.889 - 00:42:22.530

white tie and tails. And I said Mr Allen, I wore an army uniform when I was married. Oh, nevertheless, you've got to wear white tie and tails. And I have an idea this had, had a traumatic effect on the man that he had to wear white

00:42:22.540 - 00:42:40.989

tie and tails when he got married and he'd never forgotten it. And so like fraternity ha is he want to impose it on everybody else? He's mentioning Harvard and his being so particular about dress regardless of climate. Do you, did you get the impression that there's

00:42:41.000 - 00:43:03.870

um any, uh that any part of this attitude is, is uh a matter of uh the outlying region trying to imitate the center of style Francis, the east. No, I don't think as much that as I think the, I have a feeling that two things, one

00:43:03.879 - 00:43:31.030

a I don't want to call it conservatism, but rather um um or that you do like everyone else has to, that you conform a demand for conformity because there's less trouble you when, when everyone conforms, um things are much simpler to administrate, you have no problems.

00:43:31.399 - 00:43:55.399

And so the large business or large enterprise, the more complete the conformity, the uh less administration problems, the more you can order the same equipment all the way around. I think this plays a very strong part. And um I think the other, I mean, he was

00:43:56.830 - 00:44:18.520

because along with this, I've heard others in the engineering school quote, the fact that Mr Allen had said that um now this is just hearsay, but he, he said he'd like to see that school out on, on main street. Just remain a small engineering school might

00:44:18.530 - 00:44:36.929

have been when he was here. That is, he didn't want to see it really competing with Eastern schools or I mean, like MIT or uh or with Harvard and so forth. Now, along with this may have come the other that you, you uh suggest because Houston

00:44:36.939 - 00:44:54.010

itself is prone to this, that if Lincoln Center gets a sculpture by, by uh Lippo, then Houston has to have a sculpture by Lippo New York. Lincoln Center gets a uh a major work by Henry Moore. And immediately there was talk here, we've got to have

00:44:54.020 - 00:45:13.870

a Henry Moore and uh this is, this has been a regular pattern in the city in large now, I don't know where this plays any role in Mr Allen and not, he is very much concerned with grounds with property. But for instance, I'd had a large,

00:45:14.350 - 00:45:31.419

I'd gotten a large collection of logs for my students to carve him and through the parks, through trees, incorporated Davy tree men and so forth. And I had some beautiful logs. Now, these are like a library. They're like laboratory equipment and students come in and they

00:45:31.429 - 00:45:50.820

say here is here is material that you can work in, get ideas from. Well, they were gonna have a junior Chamber of Commerce track meet, National track meet at Rice in the summer. He came out and saw this pile of logs, which I would say any

00:45:50.830 - 00:46:12.560

older, more confident school would have worn proudly as a stockpile. Any order that all be hidden or done away with. It was unsightly. And I tried to explain not to him but through the ones who are taking the orders, but he had Tony and his men

00:46:12.570 - 00:46:29.199

come out and I came out too trying to save some of them. And we spent an entire week at hard labor moving some of them. We were, I was able to say, but they had to be moved and hidden back underneath, behind buildings under the old

00:46:29.209 - 00:46:43.250

stadium where they are rotting. We've never been able to get them out because these were big and out in the open, we could roll them. I had PV S and then cant hooks and things. But back in there with enough mud and so forth, it was

00:46:43.260 - 00:47:00.729

just hopeless. And, uh, so it was a total loss and this just for the sake of, uh, superficial appearances without realizing really what was at stake at all. I've never been able to build up quite as good a stockpile because the, the company had said, well,

00:47:00.739 - 00:47:18.500

here you are, you're all fixed and then what happened to them? And it's like a cry wolf situation. The next time you call up and say I need things. They knew they'd given you enough to last a long time. And, uh, so it's getting rid of

00:47:18.510 - 00:47:38.659

equipment that doesn't look good regardless of what it's doing, sort of attitude. And there had been no questions asked as to what they were there for what purpose, just get rid of them. So, you see, I, I do have some, uh, some feelings, um, both as

00:47:38.669 - 00:48:02.669

to clothing is too. Oh, I don't think there's any question in my mind as to, as to that man's loyalty to, to rice and, and what he feels is best for, but I differ as to what's best for. And after the meeting, were you uh involved

00:48:02.679 - 00:48:23.780

in any o any other activities in regard to this presidential selection? No, no, no. That's after the meeting broke up. I know I spend about nearly an hour with the president of the Student Association who was one of my pupils and uh, yes, and talking with

00:48:23.790 - 00:48:46.459

him, we stood in the rain and, and talked and he, he was, I began to realize a little more his, his total involvement in it as a positive thing. Not, there is no sense of uh, any glee that uh administration been upset or anything of that

00:48:46.469 - 00:49:05.530

sort that, but it was, it was a much deeper feeling that uh here's a situation that uh needed cleaning up or needed straightened out otherwise we couldn't sleep. Right. It was as though ii, I feel the need of a bath sort of thing. It was, uh,

00:49:05.899 - 00:49:21.270

so it had to do with actually a feeling of, of morals or ethics involved that they felt unclean that they had been taken or seduced in some way. And uh, so I feel his feelings were very, very genuine. And I think a great many of the

00:49:21.280 - 00:49:39.510

faculty realized that working with Warren, that uh we were very fortunate to have had a student leader of his of his quality. And, uh, but I wasn't down till I was trying to find out about the meetings I heard about on Sunday I missed the Saturday

00:49:39.520 - 00:49:58.290

activity and finally, I guess it was from Mrs W well, no one seemed to know off the campus what was going on. There were rumors that there were departmental meetings, that there were masters meetings there as there were and that there were, uh, um, department chairman

00:49:58.300 - 00:50:14.919

meetings. I was uh but there are all sorts of meetings at different, different levels going on. And so there were a number of us who were phoning in and phoning each other trying to find out where and whether we were uh directly involved in them or

00:50:14.929 - 00:50:35.699

were they more at a administrative level or what? And then I found out about the meetings to be a Pacos that night, Sunday night, I guess. And so, um I absorbed Will rise, I think, I think we finally broke up about 230. I mean, after the

00:50:35.709 - 00:50:55.800

meeting in the cars broke up, then many of us stood out in the parking lot among the faculty and talk for another hour for on it. And I felt that that was a very good meeting that took place at Will Rice because it, for the most

00:50:55.810 - 00:51:21.570

part was deeply concerned with the problem. Uh not with personal points of view, but here was a problem facing the entire university and trying to see it with as much clarity as possible. Um And with as much compassion, if there were persons who spoke uh with

00:51:21.580 - 00:51:42.479

warmth and affection for Doctor Masterson. And uh but still saying that under the situation, they didn't see any, any possibility of effective leadership, but I mean, they didn't uh uh there are many people, there, many of the students are saying, well, we don't know them there.

00:51:44.310 - 00:52:01.729

How can we vote one way or the other? Tell us, fill us in. And so there was an attempt to fill in on the uh on good and bad. And um this especially came up when the uh um when it was announced, there was to be

00:52:01.739 - 00:52:26.780

this, this fault the next day. And uh on the many of them felt well, we're not qualified. Well, that's, and then they were assured that the, um, to, um, no, I caught when you don't vote, abstain, the absence was to abstain was to cast a vote.

00:52:28.830 - 00:52:46.149

I mean, you could vote for, you could vote against or you could abstain. And all three of these were an activity, an honorable activity you might say under the circumstances. And um, so you, you had the pros and cons given there and I thought quite fairly.

00:52:47.340 - 00:53:12.090

And um, and I didn't, there were a few emotional appeals but on, on the whole, I felt that it was, it was all on a, on a quite a rational level. One appeal that was made was in relation to the newspapers. Whenever you see a newspaper

00:53:12.520 - 00:53:33.949

giving an account of what's taking place, read it, check it for accuracy and particularly let your parents and your hometown newspapers know what is going on. Because there had been these uh rumors going out headlines like in Chicago rice students riot so far and down the

00:53:33.959 - 00:54:01.580

valley, there's already been things of that sort and uh corresponding on, on, on radio and uh and television already had been having effects on people. And uh so I, I had felt very, very um happy about one aspect in an unhappy situation. That was the unity

00:54:01.590 - 00:54:19.229

between the fact and the students and the fact that students were concerned and wanting to find out and uh not one just to uh go all out uh pro or con on just an emotional binge, but to really find out what the issues were before they

00:54:19.239 - 00:54:46.540

voted and the fact that the faculty and uh and students had a joint bulletin that they're putting out to try and, and keep keep up with the latest information, the student reports on their meetings with Mr Masterson were, were confused and as though they hadn't come

00:54:46.550 - 00:55:14.129

with enough perspective, enough background to really know what to look for, what to expect. And um I think this was the one disappointing aspect of it that, that uh there seemed to be so much, well, in some cases, a certain amount of confusion, uh people are

00:55:14.139 - 00:55:34.419

trying to get a little clear picture of the timetable of actually what took place here at this time at this meeting, at that meeting. And, uh, with some of the students, the reports are very unclear, uh, they were contradicting each other, not out of a sense

00:55:34.429 - 00:55:53.110

of challenging, but it's sort of a bewildered sense of a gene. I didn't hear it that way. So, um, to this day, I really don't know what did take place at some of the meetings that we're reporting on. But the main thing that came across among

00:55:53.120 - 00:56:13.699

the students who spoke was that Mr Mason had made a grave mistake and that somehow he'd gotten across the feeling anyway that he looked upon them with great arrogance. Now, whether he did or not, I don't know, but this was the impression they got, they've been

00:56:13.709 - 00:56:39.540

treated with arrogance and uh this as far as when they pass this on, this is probably the most telling single thing in, uh, as far as the answer to other students, if they felt they had not been respected, but were looked down upon and talked down

00:56:39.550 - 00:57:04.790

to and uh, uh, no condescension, but just, uh, put in your place and, and whatever you do has no bearing and whether it was just an unfortunate choice of words, weariness or what it was, the impression was of arrogance. And for the students who didn't know

00:57:04.800 - 00:57:27.449

anything more, this was the, perhaps the one really telling thing report on that. So, what about the meeting out in the parking lot afterwards? The talk that took place. There, was there anything special? Uh, yes, it was, uh, very apprehensive and, well, one of the people

00:57:27.459 - 00:57:43.379

in, in, in electrical injury was saying here, we built up this department, we brought in all these new people and there's a wonderful spirit here, but most of these men are young, filled with vitality and the new department chairman has filled them with a really a

00:57:43.389 - 00:58:03.429

sense of a possible growth. And so I'm afraid we're gonna lose most of them. They're gonna say, if this university can suffer this sort of a mess, a breaking of, of faith to this extent, then we want to go elsewhere. And uh this one faculty member

00:58:03.439 - 00:58:20.770

said, I anticipate that we will lose uh a great many of our most promising younger persons. We'll say, well, this isn't the place for me. I'll go somewhere else now, whether this is taking place or not, but they anticipate within the next two, within the next

00:58:20.780 - 00:58:36.610

two or three years. I mean, they'd be on a contract for se but that they would be looking for jobs. And he said some of them have already said we're going to start looking elsewhere as a whole of Friday's meeting. There was a feeling of disillusionment

00:58:37.729 - 00:59:00.060

because there had been a real perhaps had been an all out sell. That is an attempt by the department chairman to bring in the very cream of the crop. And one of the things that you want, which you're willing to pay a price for, he is

00:59:00.070 - 00:59:20.169

an atmosphere is a place where you feel there can be uh free growth and confidence and that there won't be um other issues interfering with your research and with the real development of things. And so most of the talk was along that line was along strictly

00:59:20.179 - 00:59:38.760

educational lines of uh of uh what damage had been done. What, what's the future now? Did this have to do with the mostly with the uh the fact that they would see rice as discontinuing or maybe even slowing down momentum and its growth to a big

00:59:38.770 - 01:00:01.050

university or, or part that uh that the fact that themselves are just pawns just employs part of the fact that uh that there was, we really did not have, you might say the academic autonomy that they felt they had been told we would have and not

01:00:01.060 - 01:00:25.159

that there's interference with what you teach, but that there are things that deeply concern the faculty such as the nature and quality of a president. And that uh I think on the part of some. So it was, it was strictly the factor that the fact they've

01:00:25.169 - 01:00:47.129

been told they would have a role and that if they recognized the, that the um board had the authority to say we will make the selection period. But once having committed themselves to this other, the role of both the faculty and the students that, uh, then

01:00:47.139 - 01:01:12.500

how are you gonna have a place that you really wanna work in when those who control everything? Um, we do what they, what they please, regardless of the word. This, this was, uh, uh, one of the feelings I got and, um, another was a, uh, was

01:01:12.510 - 01:01:31.260

an outright feeling that, that the fact they should have a voice that they really should make the choice. Now, I don't know how it actually on that score, how it happens in Wisconsin. But I know that no other major decisions for many, many years have ever

01:01:31.270 - 01:01:51.780

made. Um without the faculty first voting on anything the faculty voted against did not take place that the regents were told what the faculty wanted and it voted on. And the regents responsibility was to get the funds and to expedite or make possible. But the fact

01:01:51.790 - 01:02:13.780

the faculty had the responsibility for the, for the program and for the teaching and the administration was there to carry out the, the faculty wishes or to collectively uh get the wishes of all the different departments and try and see what was possible for the entire

01:02:13.790 - 01:02:38.389

complex. And so the individual departments would present their, their wishes, their needs to the administration. The administration then would pass it to the total faculty, the faculty would vote on it. And then the regents were asked to uh make it possible financially. And this until fairly

01:02:38.399 - 01:03:02.429

recently had been the uh 04, perhaps 4040 years or so I had Wisconsin. And so I came with that particular um precedent in, uh and um I think some of the others of the younger people have come with this in mind that that um uh the

01:03:02.439 - 01:03:22.979

choice of a president is so important that the fact they have to be very much involved were actively involved in this. You were mentioning um earlier when we were talking about the library that you had some um conversations Saturday night at a party that involves some

01:03:22.989 - 01:03:48.899

Houston businessmen. Uh Well, there was this one particular man, he was a University of Texas man. Um I don't know if he was, but he looked like he'd probably been a football tackle. I mean, um, big, very large man physically and um, a man with quite

01:03:48.909 - 01:04:10.770

a large, um, business, I judge because it's spoke as though he had many hundreds of employees and he considered the university as a place of business. But the fact they were purely hired hands, it meant that the bar owned the university rather than we're trustees. And

01:04:10.780 - 01:04:29.889

I tried to point out that difference and he said, no, they own it. Lock stock and barrel and they own you. This isn't someone who's on the board or the governor. No, but this was his point of view and that uh throughout the country, uh, it

01:04:29.899 - 01:04:46.149

was just a sorry, sorry state that the, either the, either of the students or the faculty were ever listened to that they, uh, they should be told what to do and if they didn't like it just kick them off. And he said my plant, if anyone

01:04:46.159 - 01:05:14.669

doesn't like what I tell him to do or my, uh, my, uh, assistance, then he's out. And, um, I said, well, you, you, you feel and that you are always right. And well, he, he said he went to the business analogy of, uh, um, selling and

01:05:14.679 - 01:05:32.899

so forth and if the, the public is the final, if the thing doesn't sell, oh, he, he made the statement that, uh, if you have a designer in your department and what he's producing doesn't sell, then you get rid of him. And, um, I challenged is

01:05:32.929 - 01:05:56.580

using the business analogy. But he said, no, it's quite bad. And I said, all right, suppose it is. Oh, then the students are your public here. They are the buyers. And if they're dissatisfied now, if, if your product isn't selling eventually, it's your head that's gonna

01:05:56.590 - 01:06:12.659

roll as president of the board. Because no matter how many heads you lop off below you, if your product still doesn't sell, you've got no business left. Now. The students here. Oh, they aren't. And I say, oh, yes, they are. The students are in, if you're

01:06:12.669 - 01:06:34.629

using the fair analogy, your students are coming and they are paying their tuition and so forth and they're coming to purchase. So, come on, which is an education to vote. And, uh, well, I said if, if uh the product isn't forthcoming, then there have to be

01:06:34.639 - 01:06:52.689

changes made. And eventually this may mean that the board itself is at fault if they are directing the product. And, you know, as well as I do that many people may be producing a good product but that the higher up running uh the policy as to

01:06:52.699 - 01:07:08.179

presentation of that or the decisions as to uh what color and so forth. Uh There's nothing wrong with the product itself but the way it's being presented perhaps, and the decision may be up high. Now who gets it in the neck, the lower man who's carrying

01:07:08.189 - 01:07:27.489

out your wishes. And uh but I mean, all the way along, if you make this analogy, then you are or the menstruation are gonna be the vulnerable people in the end should be. But he was uh he wanted to get my opinion of the FBI and

01:07:27.889 - 01:07:42.469

uh um because they had said, or Edgar Hoover had said that there are a lot of communists involved in the student demonstrations. And I said to the best of my knowledge, this was not the case. There are always going to people, people who take advantage of

01:07:42.479 - 01:08:08.860

a situation. Once it arises, you'll have your, your professionals who will come in up and start some but will climb on climb on the bandwagon and make use of it. And um that, uh as I had understood it, that the very large majority of the students

01:08:08.870 - 01:08:27.439

involved in student demonstration are among the very best students and have. And this was especially so the Ohio Valley of Oberlin and, and many other schools there, but it was the very top 5% academically, the student body who are most involved in these things. And that

01:08:28.509 - 01:08:43.950

I knew this to be the case from what I've been told by some of our faculty were guest, guest teachers at Berkeley and others who I'd known on the Berkeley faculty that this was the case out there. Well, they see that that's an outright lie and

01:08:43.959 - 01:08:59.000

they're just a bunch of, of Commies and, and hangers on. They're not students at all at the university. And uh he wouldn't, he wouldn't listen. And I, I said, well, now I'm acquainted to some extent with what's happening in Wisconsin. And until recently, they've had no

01:08:59.009 - 01:09:17.890

violence in Wisconsin. And uh the former president of the University of California had appointed to Wisconsin and say now they use better sense than we did and it, they did not call in the police and yet they have demonstrations of 34 or 5000 students quite often,

01:09:18.660 - 01:09:39.770

but there's still open channels between students administration. And uh this is Kerr speaking and I think Atlantic, either a review or Atlantic Monthly made, this made this particular point. And then when there was a change of presence up at Wisconsin Fleming, I think went to uh

01:09:40.479 - 01:10:02.569

Michigan University of Michigan become president there. A new man came in and there was a dow chemical um demonstration and the police were brought in and they just clubbed um indiscriminately my daughter was there. I witnessed the thing and I've talked with others who were there

01:10:02.870 - 01:10:25.580

said it was just horrible and it was a peaceful demonstration and no violence, whatever in a sense of, um, I'm in advance in terms of sitting in an area period. And I said, I got a report from the now head of surgery at MD Anderson Hospital

01:10:25.640 - 01:10:47.740

who was Chief of Surgical Services at the University of Wisconsin. And he had something like 87 severe head injuries to take care of that particular day among other things, he wrote a report on these and that then he was called to Washington on some, some uh

01:10:47.750 - 01:11:08.930

important meeting when they had the investigation and the university, the administration never once gave his report. And he said with that he resigned from the University of Wisconsin and came down to hit the MD Anderson. But he said that, uh, it, it was, it was one

01:11:08.939 - 01:11:25.810

of the most terrible things he'd ever, ever witnessed what took place up there. And of course, the, uh, some of the legislators were saying, well, next time let's give the police machine guns, they really use them so that there is a great and I have little

01:11:25.819 - 01:11:46.200

respect for a lot of the mentality of legislators collectively because I, I saw them too much in action even in one of the finest legislators, legislature, they legislators in, in the, I mean, the Wisconsin uh s legislative at a time when the LA Fets were there,

01:11:46.750 - 01:12:07.160

I spent whole weeks watching and yet, uh they had the real hang ups against the university because most of them had not come through the university and you get someone speaking with good English, uh someone from the university outcome, the sport news or put a paper

01:12:07.169 - 01:12:21.620

over their face and feet up on the next desk and go to sleep. Some tavern owner from uh Voo or some place would get up and speak right away. They'd all be there because this was more politically important. And so I saw a lot of this

01:12:21.629 - 01:12:45.830

in the past and it looks like their quality hasn't changed much, but the situation was constant. I think it's been bad ever since. And if they leave the police out, things are fine. The police report not one bit. No, nothing happened. That was bad. It only

01:12:45.839 - 01:13:01.000

happened when they were present. They're willing to submit this only when they had the riot squads on hand. Was there any violence? Whatever? And when the police left, there was no violence at all, people might go on and have, have another meeting so far. No. Violence

01:13:01.009 - 01:13:18.129

until the police arrived. That should tell them something. Do you think the way the media has handled some of these student demonstrations, uh, accounts for the widespread notions? Uh, yes. And I think that the, um, I think out of Berkeley, I think it works both ways

01:13:18.140 - 01:13:40.250

if the TV wasn't there to watch and get spectacular news. Um, well, this particularly, I think San Francisco State that as long as you knew there were CA TV, cameras there, there's always a chance that you could get up and, and do something to catch attention.

01:13:41.140 - 01:14:05.799

And if they've been ignored as a minor thing, it might have remained a minor thing. I think the, that whole business on the, um, um, the Naughty Word campaign, 18 students involved. Now, actually, they had a meaningful cause they had been ignored, repeatedly ignored. So they

01:14:05.810 - 01:14:26.370

went to the simplest device of just uttering some, uh, words that normally are not now acceptable. And so instantly the full weight of the university was brought in against them. Whereas the important issues were being, being ignored and this is why they did it to point

01:14:26.379 - 01:14:43.549

this out. And I don't think they gave a darn about what words they'd be using, but they just, they knew that you can use just a few words and right away everything else becomes unimportant. And their main protest was we have not been heard. We've gone

01:14:43.560 - 01:15:05.870

again and again and I have just been given the runaround. So we'll try a very childish thing. Completely absurd. And I think if the university out there had, had used any sense at all, they would have not paid one bit of attention to it and they

01:15:05.879 - 01:15:26.990

wouldn't have accomplished what the students want to accomplish. It played right in the student hands by seeing it as important. I think they'd ignored it and, uh, just like people riding on walls, just ignore it completely. Uh, take a brush and clean it off later on.

01:15:27.000 - 01:15:55.140

And so what, uh, nothing would have, uh, I mean, it, it would have passed unnoticed. You would have had more frustration among the students, but certainly there was nothing to outrage anybody. And, uh, I mean, not with any real sense of values malice, it was purely

01:15:55.149 - 01:16:20.520

attention getting. Well, I think the, the TV, particularly has played into the hands are those who were seeking publicity. Do you think that occurred in this case? I think out in Berkeley it did now here at Rice. No, I don't really know what role the press

01:16:20.529 - 01:16:43.350

played outside of being very, very incomplete and by omission, being untrue, you had mentioned earlier, a conversation that you had with the television. Well, they had reported on Monday morning that, uh, um, a student, uh, student unrest and, and, uh, whatever term they used was still

01:16:43.359 - 01:17:06.750

going on at Rice. And, uh, um, and, and it was spoken very contemptuously. The tone was, uh, was uh contemptuous. And in telling about the protests still going on, the students trying to tell the university what uh what to do about their choice of present so

01:17:06.759 - 01:17:30.120

forth. The fact they were not mentioned once and then they said now turning to other student violence, other student violence at Berkeley, this at Wisconsin that and so forth Colombia. So that the inference was that there was violence here. Now, they didn't actually say um violence

01:17:30.129 - 01:17:49.470

in terms of describing anything that wasn't happening, that is breaking of things or burning and so forth occupation. But the inference the way they had worded that and now turning to other student violence, you see immediately included this as part of the student violence. And the

01:17:49.479 - 01:18:07.209

fact they did not mention faculty made no mention that faculty were involved or this was anything but student displeasure on the part of a few students who wanted to take over and run things and this was the way it was given. And so I have to

01:18:07.220 - 01:18:26.810

keep calling until I find uh came back where they could be reached by phone. And then the um the man who had been giving the broadcast and I'd asked for him and he came and I asked him, why no mention of the faculty was made? Well,

01:18:26.819 - 01:18:42.899

why should it? And I said, because this is a faculty affair first all. And I said, yes, if you go to the record, you'll find the students this is a faculty affair. And the students have been asking the faculty for guidance, but the faculty met and

01:18:42.910 - 01:19:06.819

made their decisions first in petitions and so forth. And the students then have rallied behind or along with the faculty on this matter. But you'll find that everything is very orderly. There is no violence on that campus and no disorder in any sense. Oh, well, that

01:19:06.830 - 01:19:22.779

isn't what I've heard. And I said, well, then you better get over there and find out the truth. You've got to be responsible for what you're broadcasting and right now you're giving a false broadcast. He, so he said, well, let me check and he went and

01:19:22.790 - 01:19:33.520

talked with some mother. He said, I, none of them know anything different from what I've said. And I said, well, then you better get out. Well, why don't you give us information? I said it's your responsibility. You're in this business and you've got to be able

01:19:33.529 - 01:19:51.700

to back up what you're saying. So why don't you get over and find out actually what's happened on this campus and you'll find it. It is, first of all, a faculty matter. And secondly, that there is no student disorder. This is not an example of student

01:19:52.310 - 01:20:13.339

violence in the slightest as you're inferring. Well, thank you. Goodbye. That's tempting attitude about uh expecting uh information to flow to them instead of they're going out and getting it. Uh I suppose e essentially, that's what the students did but the fact that they had an

01:20:13.350 - 01:20:33.979

organization for doing this and therefore they, uh, well, I, I don't know really what role the different agencies within the university took. Now, I was at a meeting Tuesday night of Bel Air. Um, oh, it was a citizens group just on, on housing and, and, um,

01:20:33.990 - 01:20:54.160

community activities and so forth in Bel Air and the family in whose home the meeting was held both Rice graduates and their daughters at Rice. And they said, what's going on and said, we, we've gotten these personal calls from alumni uh telling us to send in

01:20:54.169 - 01:21:12.740

telegrams protesting the student faculty action and uh speaking up for, for Mr Masterson and, and uh um telling them how terrible it is, the students are being, being brainwashed and they went on and on in giving the description of what they've been told over the phone

01:21:12.839 - 01:21:32.310

by the phony number. And then they said, of course, with our daughter there. Now we went there and our daughter there right now and we talked with her and her friends and this all seems very false what's behind it. And as we talked about the other

01:21:32.319 - 01:21:59.410

day, Hank Hudspeth would be able to fill you in quite a bit on that. And I imagine uh um you, you um no things development will do. But um they had gotten, I think they'd gotten several calls that day. People have been told here's a list

01:21:59.419 - 01:22:16.839

and call them, I suppose. And it been put in very strong terms that the fact they were completely out of hand and brainwashing the students. It was just terrible, but school wasn't like it had been and, uh, they are better crack down on the fact this

01:22:16.850 - 01:22:35.819

was the inference from the alumni office. And I ran into this, a number of places where people had asked me. One man called me up and, uh, so I know you're at Rice. I live down the street and I once went there about 3540 years ago,

01:22:35.830 - 01:22:52.350

I'm a doctor in town, what is going on. And so I told him, he said, thank you so much for telling me. He said, I knew I, I should have confidence in the school and, um, something just didn't seem right and the reports I was getting.

01:22:53.100 - 01:23:10.569

And, uh, and he said, I'm so glad to know that, that it is that the whole problem is on an academic and on, on the positive thing and not, uh, not the way it's inferred in the papers that, uh, just some more violence and so forth.

01:23:11.450 - 01:23:29.520

And, uh, I think I got three or four calls of this sort of people asking for information. They had taken those sides, they were just wondering what was going on and they just couldn't believe what they're hearing. And, uh, in each case, he said, thank you

01:23:29.529 - 01:23:50.709

for, for, uh, feeling in, I feel much more relieved this, this is sort of the general reaction. So sort of a, a summary uh thoughts on this whole episode. Uh What effect do you think this has had on rash? Well, of course, I I felt the

01:23:50.720 - 01:24:13.100

immediate effect was a much greater uh bond between the faculty and the students. Um There is no longer the they and the administration became that they in a way and yet the administration itself couldn't be there because the administration was part of the faculty. So the

01:24:13.189 - 01:24:36.689

they became the board and this, this is always unfortunate because then they become the, the scapegoat or the uh the focus for frustration, but at least it was no longer a two different ways and the faculty being, um I think one of the big things that

01:24:36.700 - 01:25:00.270

I have um disliked very much has been the, I don't know what you call it, the adversary system in a way, but it's almost like that where the faculty uh are looked upon as enemies. And the college I'd gone to under Alexander Mickle Johnn Experimental College

01:25:00.279 - 01:25:25.250

in Wisconsin. The faculty were never considered an enemy or an opponent, opponent. Yes, in a sense of debate at times because uh but more, more often purely as a friend that as a senior student and you're both studying the same thing and they were trying to

01:25:25.259 - 01:25:41.859

help you more clearly understand what you were both studying. And uh part of this was that they gave no grades. We got one grade at the end of two years time. It's the only grade we ever got. And this was for our total 64 hours credit

01:25:41.870 - 01:26:00.020

was just one grade. But so the pressure was complete, there were no, no grades involved, whatever. And on any of the papers we wrote rather very, very tough criticism on the papers, maybe just torn apart our arguments if they were had any fallacies in them would

01:26:00.029 - 01:26:18.229

be exposed right away. But it was not as graining, but as a sharpening of our own. Uh, uh I've been trying to point out how we could improve on our writing on our thinking up, clear clarity of presenting issues and so forth. And for that reason,

01:26:18.660 - 01:26:40.830

um, in fact, it was not someone to be avoided, but someone with whom you shared ideas and enthusiasms and so forth. And I have a feeling that the more we continue the, um, the whole high school grading situation with the, with the great emphasis on grades

01:26:41.279 - 01:26:58.600

and we don't make a break where we could at the freshman level, a freshman coming in can expect something totally different and they're ready for it. But if they're just given the same system all over again, where you're trying to beat the system and grades become

01:26:58.609 - 01:27:22.310

the reality rather than the, the, uh, knowledge and growth, becoming the reality. Grades are just, um, you might see symbols of, of one type of evaluation period. Instead of that become the, the, the tunnel. And I feel this has been very, very bad. But so any

01:27:22.319 - 01:27:49.049

unity that, that creates a bond or sympathy between faculty and students as it did, in this case, I felt was very beneficial to the university. And um this along with the uh college, the college has been able to develop um courses, I think uh that plays

01:27:49.060 - 01:28:11.229

right along with, I haven't felt it was advantageous to further development of those courses. In fact, there was this, uh if you want to say a common enemy, the like, do you know how I'm gonna, these child psychologists or they're having a, um, parent versus child

01:28:11.240 - 01:28:38.160

in the chronicle right now? And when one person said, why is it, my Children get along with my grandparents, I mean, with, with my parents, but not with me. And the answer was because they both have a common enemy. And so, but uh I, I think

01:28:38.169 - 01:28:55.049

we're gonna have an awfully tough time as many schools are right now. Uh getting a, a new president. Well, there are 28 major institutions or something of that sort, very large in more figures in that, but I'm not sure how I think they are. I would

01:28:55.060 - 01:29:23.169

say at least 28. And so I suppose you need a really a, um, a much more complex type of administrator, one who is saying the overall aims and so forth, but that he's dealing with academic things, I mean, with the responsibility of the university, uh, in

01:29:23.180 - 01:29:46.529

terms of, of, uh, of learning and then others who, who may have the, uh, the problem in terms of, of, uh, the outside world. I think it becomes too complex of pers if the president has to be a public relations man, a fundraiser and, um, uh,

01:29:46.540 - 01:30:07.270

a government contact as well as a leader of on university. But I think you've got to have one person who's, uh, perhaps responsible for the whole tone of the thing. I guess this is where it's really hard to find someone with, uh, with the, yeah, insight

01:30:07.279 - 01:30:27.220

on, on such a complex and because it is an awfully complex structure right now, well, requires the best talent of two thigh men or really arm, yeah, great men. But it seems to me that the most important, um, part here is the one who sets the,

01:30:27.709 - 01:30:51.009

the tone, the direction, not in terms of, uh, research, but in terms of, of a whole sense of, of, uh, purpose and values. Mhm. That, uh, what will a university stand for and what will he not tolerate person who makes the decision as to, um, one

01:30:51.020 - 01:31:15.899

night will step in and say, uh, uh, this is still a rightful, um, activity of a university. I mean, have, have the courage of, of real convictions, have, have convictions. They are not, uh, um, financially dictate. I, I'm not dis dis, uh, dismissing the importance of

01:31:15.910 - 01:31:39.270

finances. But I feel you can have all the finances in the world and not have a real school and you can have a marvelous school in, in many ways without all the finances. And where you have a person with, uh with insight of my teachers made

01:31:39.339 - 01:32:01.520

some of the great universities in the past and very little money, but they were very rich in male because you can't, you can't build the atom smashers or have electron microscopes out of nothing. But that's only one phase. And I think very often this, this has

01:32:01.529 - 01:32:21.950

become the all in our own department right now, a young man who's coming in and dealing with, with types of experiments in the fine arts that are gonna be very expensive. You gonna take money now they're gonna be attract a lot of attention. But where I'll

01:32:21.959 - 01:32:35.990

have my students go out and hunt for logs or we'll try and get, get uh stones from builders and things of that sort. Um scrap iron and the like it doesn't matter where it comes from, it can be the most humble sort of thing. It's what

01:32:36.000 - 01:32:52.589

you do with it and giving it shape. So it takes on the meaning that's important. But the new school of thought it's very different that because you're dealing with electronic things you're dealing with. Uh um when it's a, the demand, the very finest in plastics, the

01:32:52.600 - 01:33:17.220

very finest in alloys, the very finest in in all sorts of mechanical equipment, otherwise you can't even touch it. All right. And air supported structures. And, uh, but all the, uh, working with, uh, with light, with gasses with, uh, and this, it's a totally different, totally

01:33:17.229 - 01:33:33.379

different approach of media. Yes. Yes. That's what. And, uh, so on the one hand, I, I teach my students how to just take a stone. They can make their own tools if they want, They can take a shovel and dig clay and they're in business. The

01:33:33.390 - 01:33:51.549

main thing is what shape they can, they give this clay and it costs nothing except imagination and, and, uh, a little expenditure of energy. And, um, I imagine it used to be that way in many areas. Some of the Nobel Prize winners in engineering. I remember

01:33:51.560 - 01:34:14.060

one who was here for our centennial 50 year celebration. I was making this point. He said my, my experiment on which I was honoring the Nobel Prize came to a total of something like $7.45 or something sort of materials, including titters, cardboard strings, the metal foil

01:34:14.069 - 01:34:29.430

and so forth. And he said there's still room for a lot of this instead of these pieces of equipment that run two and $3 million the bar. Well, I certainly appreciate the time that you've, uh, given us this afternoon. Uh, do you have anything else to

01:34:29.439 - 01:34:56.029

add before? Um, no, I, I think, uh, just, just, I hope that, that there can be um a greater confidence between the faculty and the board. This is, I hope there can be a continuing confidence between the faculty and the students that the uh with the

01:34:56.040 - 01:35:19.569

students feeling free to speak up and voice their, their feelings. But also recognizing that uh OK, there will be other points of view that often have to prevail and that uh the asking for it doesn't necessarily mean it's forthcoming that but it will be given general

01:35:19.580 - 01:35:48.270

consideration. I feel this is um necessary also all the way along if there be a complete honesty. And II, I think be beyond honesty is, is a joint concern, a joint concern rather than separate concerns of different groups, they always merge on a on a higher

01:35:48.279 - 01:36:04.040

level of synthesis or something because I have a feeling that uh we had a meeting philosophical the other night in which a board member spoke and Dean Pfeiffer spoke and I don't, the uh there was not the slightest bit of concern evidence in what the board

01:36:04.049 - 01:36:20.529

member said of any interest in education. His main criticism was he said most a lot of us on the fact and the major part of us probably spend most of our time looking at our nas that we're out of touch with reality totally. And that the

01:36:20.540 - 01:36:37.250

rice tubes today aren't being hired by local companies. And this is the mark of whether you're doing your job or not whether you're servicing the local community. Now, this was the attitude of one of the board members. Is this GM Teague would a copy of that

01:36:37.259 - 01:36:54.529

speech be available later on in one of the publications or the or, I don't know, it'd be, no, it'd be just roughly summarized in the minutes. And, uh, I don't know who's preparing the mints this time. I know the last year's secretary wrote a letter to

01:36:54.540 - 01:37:21.720

Mr Teague, uh telling them his displeasure with the whole thing that felt that we never once actually touched on education or on the role of university because it was related so completely to rice and so completely to finance and without any uh any touching at all

01:37:22.000 - 01:37:42.220

on the uh role of the university and in uh helping persons develop the ability to make, to make judgments, to make decisions outside of professional fields. And I feel first of all, you have to be educating people as citizens that uh they're also gonna have to

01:37:42.229 - 01:38:01.270

vote, they're also gonna be members of the community um problems on school boards and, and uh all the way along how to live. And this is where I feel, for instance, the role of fine arts, the important in that you eventually there have to be your

01:38:01.279 - 01:38:16.439

own authority and you've got to make decisions no one can make for you. They can help you in that, but you've got to make the decisions and they have to be personal value judgments. And it's one of the few places in the university where you're called

01:38:16.450 - 01:38:37.430

upon within the structure of the curriculum to make personal value judgments. And to me, this is very important because you're, first of all, a person, did his remarks appear to be red or were they might have? Um I