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This is Polly Moore. Today is um, September 20 seven seventh, 1969. It's 450 in the afternoon. Our interviewee today is Mr Dave sars. Ok, Dave. Uh, you don't mind if I call you d go ahead. We, uh we're just talking informally here about, um, the presidential

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selection crisis in which you played an important part in last February. And I'd like to start with the, uh, with your story, um, with your impressions or opinions or attitudes about the a president for rise. Uh I'd be interested in knowing, um, what kind of president

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you would like to see rice have, uh whether master's name ever came up and what your attitudes toward him were. And then just follow this on up with, uh, the first time you heard that he was selected. Well, first of all, I think I would start

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out by saying that when President Pisser resigned, it was something I don't know whether how much anybody else knew about it, but to me it was just something that was completely out of the blue. And right then I started to think that that there must, you

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know, there must be something going wrong because you never heard about any conflicts between Pitzer and the board or anything like that. And I figured that, you know, well, I, you know, I couldn't see any reason why I resigned or maybe just old or tired or

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just didn't wanna do it anymore. Or, of course, you got the job from Stanford but it didn't seem like there was any, any undue pressure or anything, forcing him to resign or anything. So, you know, you just started thinking right, then what was gonna happen? And

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then I remember the, when they started asking for people to join the Presidential selection committee and I sort of had some desire to be on that, but I didn't feel like I was qualified as much as some of these other people, which I'm sure, I mean,

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the people who were on the committee were, I think were really well chosen. And I'm just, uh, you know, just being a sophomore, I didn't think I'd been around long enough to have such an important part. Of course, it didn't turn out to be too important,

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I guess. And uh I never heard anything Masterson's name mentioned at all at, in uh line with the selection of a president. I had to, I had heard about him because I'm in Hanson College and he was Master of Hanson before I was there. And I

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understood that he was quite a authoritarian, is that the right word? Uh He was in fact, the cabinet that was chosen that that was elected the year that he left, I think he left in 65. And then the cabinet of 6667 got the reputation of the

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God squad and they were supposedly carried over Masterson's whole idea of everything. And I heard people say that while he was master, there was only one open house, one night, open house the whole year and that he was just very strict. And the only person that

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I know personally that knew him very, pretty well or that was under him was, is Marshall Styles who is a senior this year, but he dropped out, I guess for one or two years. So that he was, you know, his first two years were under medicine

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and then he was gone and then he came back under Sass or actually came back under Doctor Gruber. And he said, well, he's kind of uh conservative anyway, but he said that Matheson was, was fairly conservative or pretty well conservative, but that he could get along

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with them and he wasn't, you know, he didn't do any, wasn't very antagonistic. He was just hard line, I suppose. So, uh, that's all I heard about medicine up until the crisis. And then Friday afternoon, whichever Friday that was when I come back, came back to

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the room from doing some work in the computer lab. I found out that he had been chosen as the next president and that the, that the, uh, committee on Presidential Select selection had been ignored. And my first, you know, why would they ignore it? I, that's

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the first thing I thought of. I mean, or actually I think what I, what I first thought of was that they had been when people said they had been ignored. I, I tend to, to see all these things as being exaggerated right off. So I said,

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well, probably they weren't ignored. Probably they just were, you know, they were consulted, but they didn't come out exactly how they wanted. So everybody's just really mad and this thing will just blow over in an hour. And then when I started talking to more and more

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people, I got the impression that it really was pretty serious that the committee had just been disregarded that nobody had been talked to and that everybody was pretty mad about the whole thing. However, I think that had the board of trustees chosen a person that was

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well liked and suitable to the students and faculty as a president that this whole thing wouldn't have been as big or might not have even occurred at all. I mean, there might have been people saying, well, we were ignored but the board of custos maybe seeing

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what kind of person we need chose this kind of person. And so we wouldn't, we wouldn't brave about it. But, but choosing mastering was a, I think a fatal mistake. I mean, it really brought out the fact that we were being ignored. So then there were

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a lot of people in Hanson putting up these posters for the, for the meeting for the next morning. I know the fees all over the place. So, and I, I wasn't really too sure that I was even gonna go to that because I still wasn't too

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sure how big a thing this was. And also I had a, a test I had to take on Saturday morning. But these posters announcing the meeting in, in the front of the Lovett Hall. Well, they were announcing the meeting in the gym and we had to

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march down the Lovett Hall. I see. Ok. So, uh, I wasn't, you know, I didn't, still hadn't got the, a whole big deal of what it was. And so I wasn't too concerned. I said, well, maybe I'll go to the meeting, maybe I won't because I

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had a test to take tomorrow and I wasn't sure how, how long that was gonna take. Well, as it turned out, I woke up late for the test and I never got around to taking it because I, it was a, it's a, it was an ROTC

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placement test or something. You know, it's, everybody starts at this time and finishes at this time. So I had to go make it up sometime and it was about 10 o'clock when I found all this out. So I said, Well, why don't I was with a

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friend of mine. I said, why don't we just go over to the meeting and see what's going on? And I went over there and I was pretty much surprised to see how many people were there. I didn't realize that, that it was that big. And then

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when these people got up and spoke, I guess is when I really, really realize the, the seriousness of the situation because I think there was an English professor that got to got up to spoke first. I, I can't remember his name and I don't wanna say

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because I'm not, I don't wanna misquote somebody. But he, when he got up to speak, he was so sincere and it looked like it looked like he was almost on the verge of tears that he just couldn't believe that this whole thing had happened and that

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he was just ready to walk out. If, if Mason became president, he was really sincere about just leaving right away. And then there was, I think doctor Castaneda that got up and spoke for me or something saying he thought it was a good choice. But even

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he said that the method of selection was not what he thought it ought to be. And then there was a student that got up and said that, that he couldn't understand why all the students were in an uproar that we don't have any right to choose

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the president. The the board of trustees, that's their job and that's what they should do and that's it. And everybody else should just keep quiet and do what they say. And during this whole thing you'd think with all the people that, that were, that were against

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Masterson, that when these kind of people got up and spilt there would be booing and, you know, they'd try to discredit them and everything, but there wasn't, everything was real quiet, real orderly and they were, their rights were respected. And it was really amazing to me

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and the way Warren scared handled the whole thing was almost fantastic. He just had so much control over the whole student body and he knew exactly how they felt every minute from the start. And I think without his leadership, if we had had a lesser president

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than he was that it would have been, wouldn't have turned out as, as dignified a, a situation as it was. I mean, as orderly. Well, anyway, he, everybody spoke and then we voted on a resolution saying that we were mostly against the due process. I think

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that's what it was and that we also, I don't know whether they even mentioned whether we like the man, but we thought that the committee should have been consulted. And right before we started to leave one of the members of the SDS and who is now

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this is gonna be speculation. But he, he raised his hand and he wanted to make another motion and scare and say, well, I'm sorry, we don't have time. We have to get on to the march because Masterson is gonna be coming in or his interview is

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gonna be over pretty soon. So we have to start marching. But I'm pretty sure from, from the SDS S activities and from what, what kind of God this person is that he was gonna make some resolution. Like let's not treat this thing as a single incident.

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Look at all the other things they've done wrong. They won't let the sds meet here and that, that was later. Well, they, I think that, that he wanted to incorporate this thing to build up the sds. Now this is all speculation. But I, I have a

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feeling that's what it was and I have a feeling that Scarron knew that and that's why he dismissed it. And I think he was very smart to do that because if it can't be something that that's attributed to one faction of the university, if it's gonna,

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if it was gonna go over as big as it was, it has to be the whole university, not just, but this is how the SES feels. So we're all gonna feel like that, which is sort of what this guy was trying to push. And so scar

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and I thought did real well by just telling him that, well, we don't have time and we have to keep going. So we marched down and then we got this gonna love it. Hall. And we formed in the groups. Well, we didn't form in the group.

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We just started walking around and there were groups of people speaking and I was in a group, I guess it was probably the biggest group there. And there was Doctor Grove, Doctor Reed and Doctor Remer and the faculty that I remember. And there were also quite

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a few, uh students, quite a few outspoken students there. And the discussion that we had was, what are we gonna do when ma if Madison doesn't resign? And Doctor De Bremer who seems to me to be pretty radical on most ideas said, well, we, I think

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we got a strike, you know, he did and he didn't say strike all the time. He said like every Tuesday and Friday or something like that. And then Doctor Grob said something like, well, we have to wait, we have to wait to see if we're gonna

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be treated like long show and like the, like the administration is here and we're just the gnome down on the bottom and if we're gonna be treated like that, then then we can decide how to act. And I started to get worried here. So I said,

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I got a hold of the megaphone and I said, well, listen, maybe we're gonna be treated like longshoremen. But if we're gonna be treated like longshoremen, we damn sure can't act like we are, we've gotta still act like we're students and intelligent professors and everything like

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that. Because if we start acting like longshoremen, then we're gonna deserve to be treated like longshoremen. And I was afraid that the, that the emotion would get too high, that people would just go flying off any other direction. And the discussion continued for a while and,

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and different things about what to do and whether he would resign and not too much factual factual things were said. And then Masterson came out of his interview and came and spoke to the, to all the people that were around there and he didn't look very

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well. I mean, he didn't, not physically, but he didn't look very well in front of the student body because, well, first of all, he'd have to be a tremendous man to look very well, the way everybody felt about him and people kept asking him, well, will

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you meet with this committee? Will you meet with the S A? Will you meet with the presidential selection committee? And he kept saying no, no, no, no. I think the board of trustees has made their decision and I'm willing to abide by their decision. And at

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one point, I think, I don't remember exactly what he said, but I think it was something like, well, I don't really see what the opposition is. I don't, I haven't seen any demonstration of any opposition to my appointment and some guy out in the crowd yelled

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out bullshit and, and, and people got mad for this guy yelling that because we, everybody was really concerned about not acting like a bunch of crazy maniacs, like at some of these other colleges where people have just started having a lot of violence and everything and

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a lot of people were mad at him saying that but still it was, you know, it really expressed how everybody felt because there was opposition. Everybody, you could just look at the people out there that were mad that he was elected. And it just seemed like

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he, he talked and then he left and when he left it seemed like, well, there's no way he's gonna go now. And so I, I talked to, uh, Doctor Soligo, I believe, and Doctor Besson, who are associates of Hansen and professors of economics and they, they

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both sort of felt that he wasn't gonna go, he wasn't gonna go back because he, he was put in a bad position by the board. He couldn't turn down the job because of what it would do to him and he couldn't keep the job because of

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what it would do to the university. And so it was really almost an impossible situation. Well, the rest of the afternoon, I don't remember too much happening. I remember going to lunch and talking about it for a while and then I think there wasn't too much

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going on that afternoon and that night. I don't remember very much of what happened. It, it probably wasn't, I wasn't too much involved in it then. I must have had some work to do or something. Were you at any of the meetings where he met with

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the various, at the various colleges? Uh, uh, so you got a chance to see him closer up and converse with him or question him? He, I don't believe he ever met with anybody except the, the one committee composed of, uh, college presidents and the president of

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the S A, he wouldn't meet with anybody else. And I was surprised he even met with them. What do you say? Why do you say to that? Well, because he, no, because what he said when he spoke, he said he wasn't gonna meet with anybody. And

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so when he met with those people, I thought, well, maybe we're gonna get somewhere, you know, I was kind of surprised that he decided to do that, but I don't really remember. There were various meetings going on Saturday night, the SDS, I'm sure is meeting, trying

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to decide something. And there were meetings of, uh, students. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I remember, I, I, I'm manager of the coffee house or was this year up in Hanson College and I was trying to get people to come up there and discuss it and there were

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a lot of people up there that night and we were talking about it and everything. And we had, we had kowl which is the campus radio station on the, on the air in the coffee house. And we were listening to all the developments that were happening

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there. And that night was when Masterson met with those students. And I finally thought I'd go over and when the meeting got out, I wanted to go over and try to talk to some of the people who came out of the meeting. So when I got

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out and I went over to, uh Allen Center, the Development Office I think is where they met. But they had already left by the time I got there, but I still talk to body, Jim body, who's the president of Hanson and to warn Scarin and the

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way those people looked at that time physically, I mean, they were just completely exhausted and you could just really see that there was quite a bit of concern about what was gonna happen because they've been up all night and all day and everything and I talked

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to Jim body because he's a pretty good friend of mine anyway. And I said to him, uh, I asked him, well, what, what's gonna happen? Is there any, have you got anywhere? And he said, well, don't tell anybody this yet because it's, we haven't made a

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statement. But I say that the outlook is very dim, that it doesn't look too good. And I said, well, what did you talk about with ma and he said, well, a lot of the time we talked about just regular BS about how rice has changed and

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what rice has done and that stuff that was really pertinent to the crisis. And I can't, uh, I can't really remember exactly. There was a time when he got mad for some reason and I doctor Masterson got mad about something and I can't, and I'm sure

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any account I would give wouldn't be very good if you talk to one of the other presidents. I'm sure they can tell you exactly what it was. But I remember that when I left, left them, I didn't, I felt like it was almost hopeless that we

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couldn't get any further. Well, your object at this time was what? Well, I was hoping that hoping that there would be some kind of resolution that, oh, and I think he said also that mess and was not going to meet with the students anymore that he

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was going back to Chattanooga. And I was hoping that, well, he maybe he'll meet, you know, we were, I think there was a, I hope that we could have a, a general student, uh, meeting and he would come before the meeting and explain why he accepted

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the position or that the board would explain this. And when he said he was going back to Chattanooga, it sounded like to me he was just shutting the door and he's saying you guys can make all the noise you want to. But I'm gonna be back

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in Chattanooga and the board isn't gonna move. So by the end of the, by the time the summer is over, everything's gonna be cooled off and I'll be president. Oh, and, and another thing when he, when he spoke in front of Lovett Hall, he, he, uh,

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somebody said, well before he spoke, somebody said, if he, let's not, let's not throw him out right away, if he's gonna be a good president and then he'll have the best interests of the university in mine. And if he has the best interests of the university

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in mine, then he'll be willing to meet with the students and, and explain the whole position. So if he, if he's willing to do, if he's not even willing to do that, then how could he possibly have the best interests of the university in mind? And

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then when he spoke and said he didn't, then I, then I thought, you know, this, all this, what had been said, seemed very logical to me. So I said, well, ok, if he's gonna meet with us, then good, let's give him a chance. When he said

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he wouldn't meet, then everything fell into place. Well, ok, he's not gonna meet. How can he possibly want the best for rice? All right. So then Saturday night went by and then Sunday, I got a pretty light Sunday I remember and I believe it was Sunday

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that Doctor Reed came to dinner that handsome and usually before the dinner they have announcements and everything. And he got up and said that before this whole crisis had started and having nothing to do with the crisis he had planned on resigning from rice for other

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reasons. He didn't say what they were, but the fact that the students and faculty had been united so strongly and there was such a, I don't know, a kind of a glue between the whole thing that everybody was just so much together and willing to put

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so much effort into it that he decided he wanted to stay at Rice. And this really was quite impressive to me because, well, I don't, Doctor Reed is a, is pretty, uh a pretty liberal uh professor. He was going to a lot of the SDS meetings

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and the sds and I aren't very, don't have too much in common, but still the fact that he's still a, a great thinker anyway, whether his thoughts and mind are the same and the fact that he would, he would change his mind like this really made

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me feel good. He said he was just proud to be a part of Hanson College and proud to be a part of Rice University because of all the, all the work that was being done to remedy this crisis. And I think I was on my way

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over to the radio station because I had a show that night and I wasn't sure, you know, the programming had, had gone 24 hours. It usually goes, it, it was usually from six until one o'clock and it, since Friday night, it started going on 24 hours

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and it was on 24 hours all during the crisis. And so I wa I was going over to the radio station to see whether my show is gonna come on or whether I was supposed to come on at a different time because it was really, you

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know, completely changed around. And I'm on my way over, I saw a group of faculty, Doctor Freeman of the Space Science department, Doctor Grove, Doctor Castaneda, and I don't remember who else, but there were quite a few, oh, Doctor Garside and there was a petition that

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Doctor Grove had. Uh, well, I can hardly remember what it was. I, no, I don't really remember what it was. I think it was something to the effect that, but they wanted some immediate action or no, I don't even, I don't, I don't even wanna say

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what it was because I can't remember. But I, it was something along the lines of, of the violation of due process or something like this. And I talked to, talked to some of the professors and listened to what they were talking about and I talked to

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Doctor Freeman who I'd never met before. He's in the Space Science department. There's a doctor Freeman in the math department too. So this is the Doctor Freeman of the space size department. And I said, well, you know, everybody was just asking, well, what do you think

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is gonna happen? And what do you think this and what do you think that? And he said something that I thought was really important that despite, despite the end result, something hasn't happened at rice. And the fact that he was talking to me where we had

00:24:09.520 - 00:24:20.089

never met, I said, he said, I said like, well, what's, what do you think this is gonna do to us? I said, well, he said, well, I'll tell you one thing it's brought, brought us a lot closer. And he said, like, look, I'm talking to you

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and I've never met you before. I probably would have never had an occasion to talk to you. But now we're talking just like we're friends. And I, and, you know, I really thought about that because I got to talk to a lot of people that I

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hadn't known and a lot of professors and I just felt like it was a lot, I was a lot close, you know, it was a, more of a community thing. So I went over to the radio station, I think and found out I was coming on

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at 530 instead of six and, and then I went back to the room and I was on, I'm on with another boy. Nortis. And uh, so we went out at 530 and we were told to keep our show as normal as possible. I mean, just play

00:25:00.439 - 00:25:16.150

music and then the news will be given when it comes but not, you know, not to get all emotional or anything. And so we did it, we just, we kind of hang loose. We, we were always about every 10 minutes, we had to announce the exam

00:25:16.160 - 00:25:31.209

changes because there were a lot of exams during that next week and a lot of them got postponed and everything because of what had happened. And there wasn't too much going on for the first couple of hours. But then all the college meetings were that night.

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And so we kept saying, make sure you go to your college meeting and everything. Um, I guess at eight o'clock or no, they started at 10 or no, eight or 10, I don't remember which 18 o'clock, I guess. See, this is a Sunday night we're talking

00:25:46.760 - 00:26:03.060

about and these college meetings are the, are the, see, Masterman has already left town. So these college meetings are, uh are meetings to, uh to discuss the situation or do I decide what to do? And I remember that all day Sunday, I, I got in and

00:26:03.069 - 00:26:20.579

out of the Hampton College office and there were people calling up professors, associates anyway to, to come to all these meetings. And so at eight o'clock, the meeting started or No, it was 10. Now, I remember it was 10 o'clock. The meeting started and I, I

00:26:20.589 - 00:26:34.760

left for a while because there wasn't too much use in broadcasting then. Um, well, we, we did keep broadcasting but we didn't need two people there. Right. Right then because the, hopefully everybody was at the meetings, not listening to the radio. You've been broadcasting steadily ever

00:26:34.770 - 00:26:46.760

since 530. Yeah. And usually our shows from 6 to 8 we were told just, we, we'd stay on as long as they, I said, I'd stay on as long as they wanted me to stay on. And all the other people's shows got canceled out. So I

00:26:46.770 - 00:26:57.670

went back to Hansen. I think I had to go back to get some cigarettes or something and, and get something to eat because I hadn't eaten dinner and I went back and I looked into the commons where the Hansen meeting was and I couldn't believe what

00:26:57.680 - 00:27:12.930

I saw. There were just so many people in that commons. It, our columns is sort of on two levels. The balcony, the, the, uh, lounge is on the bottom floor and then the eating is three or four steps up the eating facilities and there were people

00:27:12.939 - 00:27:27.670

that had overflowed into the lobby. There must have been 500 people there. And it was really fantastic. I, well, I sort of wish I could have attended the meeting, but I had to go back to the radio station. So I went back were the faculty students

00:27:27.680 - 00:27:41.359

uh in the alumni or just mainly faculty students. Uh I imagine that there was some alumni there. I don't know for sure because I didn't really look at them real hard, but I've noticed that there were a lot of faculty and a lot of students and

00:27:41.449 - 00:28:05.760

both Stuart West and, and John. So I believe are at that meeting because they're both from Hanson. And so I went back to the radio station and sometime before midnight, I believe I got a call saying to urge people throughout the campus to go over to

00:28:05.770 - 00:28:22.510

Brown College because they were voting on whether to abstain from the whole issue or not. And when I heard this, I started to get worried because I said, well, how can, how can they want to get out of it? What don't they want to be part

00:28:22.520 - 00:28:38.119

of the university? And so we, you know about every other minute we kept saying anybody who's interested, anybody wants to exert any influence, get over to Brown right away because they're voting and will to abstain. And it turns out the reason that they were go going

00:28:38.130 - 00:28:57.300

to abstain is because they were uninformed. They didn't know all about the whole situation and there weren't enough interested people in Brown and enough interested associates that had, that had conveyed the whole feeling of the, of the crisis. And I think doctor Grom and Doctor Reed

00:28:57.310 - 00:29:10.780

and everybody got over there and all these people were really involved in it and spoke to him and then there was, they, they didn't abstain from it but, you know, this whole thing about communication, which is, is basically the problem anyway, it was just portrayed right

00:29:10.790 - 00:29:25.550

there. If you don't keep communicated, all kinds of things can go wrong. Do you, uh, have you gotten any impression later on of, uh, whether your radio message, uh, had a great deal to do with, uh, uh, were there many listeners at that hour or, uh,

00:29:26.489 - 00:29:42.969

well, or were there other alternate means of getting the word around, uh, being used at the same time too? The meetings were almost o a lot of the meetings are over then I remember because I think Sordi and, and we had come back. So I imagine

00:29:42.979 - 00:30:03.359

there were quite a few people listening and also I'm sure that the people that were really concerned, like these people in the news department at the radio station, I'm sure they got over there and they talked to, I'm sure that Doctor Grove and doctor, we were

00:30:03.369 - 00:30:21.989

contacted, if not, if they didn't hear it by the radio, by some other means to get over there. And so Brown didn't abstain and then Monday morning, everybody had to go back to classes. Oh, well, anyway, yeah, this was still Sunday night. So this is about

00:30:22.000 - 00:30:39.910

12 o'clock and I stayed on the air, I think, until 530 that morning. I was pretty tired by then. But, you know, you felt like you were really doing some good and out in the lobby of the R MC in the basement there must have been

00:30:39.920 - 00:31:00.229

40 or 50 people with tape recorders and pens of paper, taking the tapes of all the college meetings and trying to either write them up for the thresher which was being put out every day or just, you know, cutting out all the extraneous stuff in the

00:31:00.239 - 00:31:16.599

tapes because a lot of the tapes were just complete tapes of the meeting. It took two or three hours and there were just people all over the place listening to these. The thresh was being put out. I was being written in the thresher office and being

00:31:16.609 - 00:31:32.099

put out in the hansom college office on the mimeo machine, that machine they had over there. And there were a lot of people that, that I'm sure suffered scholastically because of the dedication that they had towards this whole thing stayed up, Bert Kleman, who is the

00:31:32.109 - 00:31:49.180

secretary of Hanson now was very instrumental in getting out this daily threshold. I'm sure he'd have a lot to say and probably uh uh Dave and uh