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My name is Nori Guthrie from the Woodson Research Center, Fondre Library Rice University. I am interviewing Dana Cooper. Today is January 20th 2017. This is part of the Houston Folk Music Archive, oral History project. What first drew you to music? Um, my father, um, actually, uh,

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first, uh, I first heard music played on the radio and, uh, my dad was AAA big music lover and loved country music. You know, I grew up listening to things like Hank Williams and Ernest Tubb and stuff like that. And, uh, I think the combination of

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that he took me to an Ernest Tubb concert when I was three years old and we had to go through quite a, a rigor to get there. It was, we lived out in the country was in Missouri about 60 miles from Kansas City. So we, we

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had to walk down to a place where you could get on a freight train, go on a caboose freight train and rode into Kansas City. And then he took me over to Kansas City, Kansas to see Ernest Tub. Yeah, I really think, you know, I mean,

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I was three but I know it had a profound effect on me and he would get me to sing along with the radio and he, he was tickled by that. So, and then that same year that was 1954 it took me to see two movies that

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really um really moved me and turned me on to different kinds of music. One was on the waterfront, uh Kisan who has a music by Leonard Bernstein. Beautiful, sweet. I never heard anything like that. And also that same year he took me to see a movie

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called Blackboard Jungle which had Bill Haley in the comments, a great Texas band playing rockabilly music. And I think that year was just a, it really kind of set me up and of course, it was an ongoing thing. My father was always into music and loved

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singers, loved songs and he'd hear a song on the radio to go that's gonna be a hit, you know. So, uh and he had a very, very nice singing voice as well. So, yeah, it's kind of steeped in it at an early age. Ok, cool. Um

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What instruments did you play? Did you start playing? Uh probably the first instrument I had was a, was a plastic harmonica and my grandfather came and uh I, I tried to make music with that thing and I was probably about eight or something. But uh I

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got a guitar and my dad gave me a guitar when I was 12. A really cheap, funky K guitar from Western Auto. Uh, the action was so high. I played kind of like a cheese cutter. It was just awful guitar. Uh, and I was very frustrated

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with it and, uh, I was always tapping on things and, and, uh, so by the time I was about 13, I, I was playing the guitar a little bit and started to write some songs, but I started playing drums when I was 12, a marching in

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a marching band in school on snare drum. So then I sort of dreamed of being a drummer and I, I studied drummers and I'd go to the sea dances and watch them. And so drums and guitar were kind of the, the first things I really latched

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on to and it, and it moved pretty immediately over to just the guitar did, doing kind of starting with drums in a way. Do you think that that influenced your guitar playing? Oh, it definitely influenced my guitar playing and just, I think my interest in rhythms

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and, uh, just my propensity for banging around on things and playing with polyrhythms and things. I, I definitely incorporate that a lot into my guitar style and then of course, a lot of guitars that I heard coming out that, that I, I liked with the things

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they did rhythmically. Uh, Pete Townsend was a big one, of course, uh, uh, but then all the, um, you know, I listen to things like the nanny television show that came on. I forget how old I was, what year that was exactly. But it was, it

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was during that time, but it was for about 10 or 11. And that's when I started to get turned on to a lot of folk music. And, um, and, and so we have a lot of world music as well because some of those folk artists like

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Mary mckee and people like that and it was an African influence and old blues influences. And so, um those definitely kind of added to my arsenal of things I wanted to, you know, emulate and learn. Um Do you remember the first song that you wrote? Yeah.

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II, I vaguely remember it. It, it was a, uh, I was probably 12, 13 and uh as we call it, it was something like between 32nd and 31st street or something. I think there was a girl that I liked in high school and she lived on

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31st terrace and that didn't sing very well. So I just kind of had this, it was just a kind of a loving spoonful. I, uh influenced, you know, teenage love song. Ok. Hope no one ever hears. Um Could you describe some of the bands that you

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played with as a team? Yeah. Uh, the first band was just, uh two brothers uh that I knew they were in Independence, Missouri and, and uh uh they, uh, Bill and Paul. They, they had, uh, one of them had built one of these heath kit, um,

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guitar amplifiers. I had a snare drum and a little crash symbol. I had bought from another friend's father who had a junk store and uh an old sure microphone. It looked like a, a grill off of an old car and it was great big things. A

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straight mic. So I'd stand up between my legs, play the snare drum and the Cymbal and sing and, and we plug the mic into the amp and they each play guitars and we all put everything through the guitar amps and, uh, played in the basement and

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we went and played a couple of, uh, you know, uh picnic shelters and, uh, uh a couple of kids houses, you know, some of our friends at school and we're doing things like Dave Clark Five and Beatles and stuff like that. Um And then that just

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kind of kind of graduated on to, uh, I was in a lot of bands through high school, a lot of different bands because I could sing. Uh, II, I was easy to get into a band and there was a shortage of good singers. It seemed like.

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So, so it was in a lot of little local bands, we would play a few gigs and one reason or another, the band would break up with someone who quit and then you get someone else that would just morph into a different band and, and completely

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fall apart. And that, that went on for quite a while. Uh, but in high school I met Chike Russell because he grew up around there too, right down the street from where I, where I grew up and a way, a mutual friend, uh, this, uh, girl

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named Angel. I don't know what her real name was. She had hair down to her knees, uh, uh native American girl. And she would come to my concerts at a folk, some folk clubs in town there, the sign Vanguard and she was a fan of Shake's

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band. He played bass in and she kept telling me you, you gotta meet this guy. I think you guys would really hit it off. I think musically you have a lot in common. And so he and I started Shake and I started bands and we probably

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went through, you know, 20 to 30 personnel over a couple of year period there. Same thing, you know, guys are more interested in the girlfriends or the new car or something than the band. And we were always very serious about it. So it, it was, it

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was kind of a, that, that went on until about the time I graduated and we went separate ways when Shake went with John Danders Ban three times and I went to California. So can you um talk about going to California? Why you decided to go there?

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Yes. Uh Well, II I knew I had to get out of Kansas City and, uh I had aspirations, you know, I was, I had an art scholarship, a painting scholarship to, uh, all through high school. I had high school scholarships to Kansas Art Institute and I

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had a scholarship to Catholic College in Kansas City, Ave. And I went there for about a year. Um, you know, because I had a scholarship and I felt obligated to go and, and, but I really want to play music. So I just quit. I did a

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tour of college, college coffeehouse tour around the States for about 67 months. And during that time, I did a show, a party in Kansas City, uh, coming out party, these wealthy families and daughters, you know, and, uh, I showed up in jeans and rough, uh, rough

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out cowboy boots and a work shirt and long hair and, you know, I was the entertainment for the evening and I'm standing over there in this penthouse apartment in the corner playing. I did a lot of cover songs back then too. Things like, uh, somewhere the

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Rainbow and, uh, which like the star, a little old songs in the forties and fifties. And there was a fellow there from screen Jim's films from Los Angeles. He was a friend of the family and he introduced himself, he really liked what I was doing. He

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said, why, you know, you're really good if you ever come to Los Angeles, look me up and I loved uh the music coming out of California and had for a long time, you know, from the birds to when Ronstadt and Joy Mitchell and uh just Jackson

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Brown, all this great stuff that was happening out there. And uh it seemed to be quite a singer songwriter based scene. So it just kind of made sense to me. It was like, uh it took me about a year uh to get everything together to go

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out there and, uh sold my entire record collection and one of the guitars, I had got an airplane ticket and arranged to stay in this guy's uh couch in his house or his apartment in Hollywood. I crashed there for about a week. I went out and

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immediately got a job, got my own apartment and, uh, it seemed like forever, but it was about three or four months later. I, I had a, an offer from electric records but that whole time was spent, um, because this fellow Bill Barnett, uh, oh, a lot

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to him. He was a great guy and he had a friend named Stan Farber who was a studio singer in Los Angeles, uh, in this core group of studio singers and they did everything from Partridge Family TV. Shows said you share TV, shows. Uh, almost anyone

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who made a recording, whether they were pop or rock or soul or whatever they needed. Uh, a group of singers, these people were the, the, the A line people. And uh it's about 12 of these people, men, women. I, one of the guys was the voice

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of Tony the Tiger. He's the base and stan saying he was a tenor and he was a really good singer and he knew everyone in Los Angeles. So he met with me, heard some of my music was really checking with it and he said, I'll take

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you around. I set up all the appointments. So he took me to every single record label in Los Angeles. Sometimes we'd hit a couple of a day and we actually go into a guy's office, always a guy, go into guy's office, sit there and I'd play

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for him. Uh And in various states of consciousness, I was often under the influence of, you know, LSD or other things I was experiencing at the time and no one seemed to know, you know, I functioned and, uh so we, you know, I had some offers,

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had an offer of a, this is for a staff songwriter for A and M and they took me in to meet the other rider. I'd be sharing an office space with this guy named Paul Williams, who's a huge, huge songwriter, very short stature, very big and

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talent. And uh I really liked him and all, but I just, I didn't want to be a songwriter. I wanted to be an artist, a songwriter who's an artist. So I held out and nothing came back from anyone. So I finally, uh, because I've been getting

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kind of strung out out there. II, I cleaned up, I went back home to Kansas City. Stayed with my folks. Stay with the girlfriend I had there in Lawrence, Kansas. I think I was home about a week and got a phone call from Marlon Greener and

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he said we want to do business with you and, and I was 20 at the time. So we waited till I was 21. I could sign my contract and uh prepare and went out there again. And, you know, I got a little front money and I

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know it wasn't much, it was a couple of $1000 but this is 1973 72. And, and so I, I got a nice little apartment within walking distance of the studio and I'd get up in the morning, I'd walk about six blocks to and I'd go in

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and work all day with, you know, I got to pick my own musicians. So, so I picked Leon Scar Kel. They were uh Jim Gordon, who was probably the most in demand drummer at the time. Cow Write of Layla Jo Osborne and old uh famous bass

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player from, from LA. A lot of great people. M Holland. Uh But anyway, it was just II I got to choose people. And in stand, he produced the record for me and he also suggested people that I didn't know about and brought a really good, that

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was the experience of a lifetime working on that project with those people. At 2021 I was kind of blown away and, uh, it was a good year, year and a half, you know, and then, uh, I toured behind the record and then eventually it was dropped

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with the, like the bottom third of the roster of the label. They had made a big switch over. Uh, David get kind of came in and took over. But yeah, it was a, it was a lot of fun. It was a big crash coming out of

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that and pretty, pretty rough for about a year. But then I just went right back. I went up to San Francisco and lived for a while and I went back, spent another year down there knocking on doors and a lot of close calls, but it didn't

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snag anything. I just decided I had enough and moved back to Northern California. So I spent about eight years back and forth between northern and southern California. So, what ended up bringing you to Houston? Well, that kind of goes back again to the John Van Der

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Chuck Russell connection which, uh, shake and John had moved here with abandoning street times. Uh, I think they went down to Florida for a while after, you know, when I left, they had gone off, went down to Coconut Grove, I believe. And then they ended up

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back in Texas and John was from Dallas originally. And, uh, but, you know, Shake and I had seen John at a love in, in Kansas City. Young Street Times just showed up one day and uh Shake and I was a drummer, uh, that we were working

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with at the time. Uh, Tom, I can't remember Tom's last name. Um, but, uh, and we saw this band and in particular, this guy at the front of the band, this singer who was just world class. I mean, you know, I was like, wow, who is

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this person? And they were doing songs by uh people like Jeff Walker and Michael Murphy and uh some people I hadn't really heard much of and, and just interesting collection of stuff. It was all new. So, uh so, yeah, I, I uh things were going kind

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of rough out on the west coast and I was in touch with, with Shak and John occasionally, I'd actually invited them to come out to record on my album on lecture and they, they had their own thing going. They said you're gonna, you'll do better with

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the people you got and they were kind of self facing about the whole thing. So that didn't happen. But uh so I had an open door to go down there. And so I went in 76. Uh I came down to Texas to Houston just for like

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a week's visit to see what it was about and they both said, you know, there are a lot of clubs, a lot of great scene going on here. So we went to Klol Radio Station and did a live recording in there and a couple of the

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songs from that got put together with some demos that they'd been making with John. And they, they put out this album called Songs on the Radio, which is a song song on the radio. And, uh, I just wanted to just get this album in the mail

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in San Francisco and I, I didn't even know they were making a record and, uh, my name is on there and a couple of my songs and, and I listened to it and I thought, yeah, didn't sound very good. The recording quality good. I was kind

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of appalled because I've been working, you know, with, with a really professional L A people, a polished thing. And, uh, but, uh, but there was undeniably something cool about a lot of the tracks, particularly the tracks that, that they'd done with John because they were, they

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had done in the studio and I loved him anyway. So, well, it just took off, became a very popular thing here in Houston. So I ended up coming down, I like another two or three times over, uh, from in 76 77 and I do shows with

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them and, and, uh, the crowds got bigger and she came out there for a while lived uh in the house I was living in and we wrote some songs. Uh, he's out there about 56 months and kind of built up some uh demand for him to

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come back here. And he did that and then the audience is built even more. And when I next time I came down for a visit, it was, you know, we play in the house to 1000 people and it was like, I've got to, I've got to

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move down here and do this, you know, uh, it was just nagging me. I want to play music. So it was a good opportunity. So, how would you, you said that there was a lot going on here? How would you describe kind of coming into the

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folk scene here? Well, it was really interesting, you know, from everything from just the physicality of this place, the geography of it, the weather, you know, I, I, the first time I came here from San Francisco, I got off the plane, uh, at Hobby and, and,

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uh, it was, uh, in August and there was, you just got off and there was a, uh, uh, a stair away off of the plane. You step right into the, onto the tarmac and I stepped out of the plane and could barely breathe. So you would

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not. And I had, you know, it was so stupid. I had my jeans tucked down into my fry boots and, you know, I looked like a tin horn, you know, and I was just thrust into this culture. That was fascinating. Kind of frightening. A little bit

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to me too. Uh, people call me the Yankee all the time and I, I'd never heard that, you know, it, it's just so funny to be from Missouri that probably the heart of, of the civil war really went on after the civil war, even after the

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James gang even. It was just, you know, but anyway, um, yeah, I thought that was kind of funny but sometimes it wasn't said in a funny way, you know, I stepped into a lot of resentment from people in the audience sometimes. Uh, I noticed people in

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the front row sometimes be yelling things and that and we'd stop playing between songs and I'd hear him saying things that we didn't come to hear you. And so like that there was this immediate sort of, uh, because shaking over the front guys, it kind of,

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it was a competition to, it wasn't to me but it was to some people in the audience. So that, that wasn't, I never experienced anything like that. It was very, very odd. Uh, at the same time, there were, there were just amazing people around here, uh,

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writing songs and playing music with Towns Van and who I met in Boston when I was in a lecture. We shared some shows up there. But uh, Towns was here got Clark uh Lucinda Williams, somewhere along in there was coming up Nancy Griffith a little later

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on, you know, Eric Taylor, of course, uh people like Michael, uh Marli who had a, a rock, you know, he was great. He did a lot of work with us. Um wheat field which became almost fire and I loved and they were some of the first

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people who kind of embraced me and it really took me and very nice to me, Danny Everett uh was another one that we did a lot of gigs with that love joys and Cory. But like that, uh they were just a, it was a uh place

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Foley was another big one I loved plays. Uh Ron Crick who's an old friend of ours who we've known in Kansas City. Uh There are a lot of sort of these paths that cross over the years in interesting ways. Uh But I i it was obviously

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a very vital scene, a lot of great bands, you know, uh the Cold Cuts and, oh gosh, just so many really cool bands and I love the uh the influence of the old blues music, uh Cajun music, um gospel music, all these things that were very

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particular to the south and it kind of bled into this town. Uh I was a really, it was, it was a, it's just a combination of being invigorated by a film that didn't fit in at all. Uh But then also being really embraced by a lot

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of people. And, uh, the whole time I lived here the whole eight and nine year years I lived here. It was, uh, or that was 10 years. Yeah, it was a, it was interesting. I never quite felt that I belong to completely. Um, and something that

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obviously self imposed or, you know, came from within the name, some of it came from that being an outsider coming into a place. And, uh, and I always wanted to try to do something a little different. So that became more of an issue later on when

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I quit working with. She, I owe a lot to this town because I mean, really, I was just languishing out there. I was going back to college, studying horticulture and, you know, thinking of working a job, full time job, going to school, full time, coming home

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and gardening at night with floodlights. And then I realized one day I was like, I'm just, I'm just filling my time up so that I don't have to face what it is. I really want to do or just go out and play music. It's funny to

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wrestle with that all those years and finally, you know, realize, ok, um, what were some of your favorite clubs? There are clubs? Oh, well, yeah, there are a lot of, I love to. Well, you know, Cory is a mainstay that was, and that was a, a

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funny little place. Uh, Cory. I like to love Joyce. That was a neat set up. Those are a couple of the first places I played. Hula Hands was a funky little place I actually enjoyed playing. But, you know, it was wonderful, uh, these thing and of

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course, playing the Opry House. That was a pinnacle. Right. Then that was the biggest place around. And, uh, I enjoyed that, enjoyed the shows there. Uh, then there were places like Steamboat Springs, which I also liked that place because it was a little smaller but still

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a good size. They turn the house loops, fill the house and they do show it. They have to fill it again and we do that 23 nights in a row. It's just crazy, you know. So, I mean, uh, again, I, I loved those gigs. Uh, but

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I was just thinking this the other day, you know, if I were to step into one of those places now that they existed now and I wanted her to play a show, it would be such a challenge because his audiences were, uh, you know, we were

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a band and we kind of, you know, however you classify it, we, we rocked and we were kind of, you know, we could crank it up a little bit so the audience was roaring loud, which it always was, uh, we could at least sort of hear

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ourselves. Sometimes it was hard to even hear yourself, uh, plugged in like that. And, and turned up. So I see that a lot. Now, when I go to Austin, for instance, this music city and you go there to a concert and virtually no one is listening

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to anything, these world class people, if they're playing and, uh, maybe some people listen, but mostly, you know, people are drinking and yelling and talking and, and it really isn't about listening to what's going on. It's more about being part of the scene and I think

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that was really, uh that was a big part of it. You know. Now I have people come up, I haven't seen you in 30 years, you know, since the old days, the sheikh and all this. Well, first I say you should get out more often. Add,

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we all do this. Every generation does this, you cling to that what you were into when you were young, when you were a teenager and a college student. That's always what you have, uh some mentality for your attraction to it and you always sort of drawn

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back to those good old days, you know. Um, but, uh I loved the fact that we had audiences to play for, but it's funny, uh to think back on it now and realize, you know, I'm not sure how much, obviously people heard something but, but, uh

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you know, I'm not sure what either. So do you prefer now to play, like in listening rooms a bit more? That's mostly what I do play and, and, yeah, I mean, uh, I love, I love Rocky Head. I've always kind of balanced this thing of Falcon

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country and rock and roll and, and pop. I've always, uh, along with lots of other kinds of music. I, as a writer, I've always wanted to incorporate as many of these things as I can and have worked to do so and, and, uh, but there is

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something really cool about it, being able to get up, tell your stories, say your songs and people are actually really listening to what you're doing. And especially if, if you spend a lot of time hunting that craft and, and really working on your lyrics was another

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friend of mine recently posted a thing I saw, he's, he's a, a music writer and he was, he made an observation, he and he'd gone out to a club and, and he'd heard this little trio and it, it sounded great. It had a really cool, interesting

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sound and he was really drawn to it, but he said he realized he wasn't really listening to what they were singing, what they were saying lyrically. It was just the sound of the voice, the sound of the instruments, how it work. And he wondered how much

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people, uh, this is in a club setting and he goes to a lot of house concerts and he said, you wondered how much people really pay attention to lyrics. Uh, and that, and that's such an important thing for a songwriter to be able to play house

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concerts, the consciousness because people are there for that. They want to hear a new message as well as the music. So, yeah, I really like it, it, it kind of intimidated me at first when I went from the band into doing house concerts on my own.

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Uh because you are pretty vulnerable. It's, it's uh now very comfortable doing it, but I can get up in front of a noisy audience and I very occasionally still do a bar gig somewhere to pick up a gig and, and I'll just get up and, and

00:28:19.280 - 00:28:36.739

do it and it doesn't really bother me. Um, and if you're in a band, uh, I think it's sort of, it is different. You don't necessarily want to get up there in front of an audience is just sitting here and stay here. So I like to

00:28:36.750 - 00:28:51.170

see people move and dance and stuff too. So, uh, it's all just sort of a matter of, of what you want to do. I really miss having a band. Iii I love doing the solo thing, but I, occasionally I put a band together in Nashville, um,

00:28:51.800 - 00:29:05.609

and even auditioned and, and did one gig with a sixties, uh, classic sixties rock band here last year and I was excited about that. I thought this could be a lot of fun to do this on the side and the band just didn't, it just didn't

00:29:05.619 - 00:29:19.819

really stay together to do the gig gigs. But, um, I enjoy that energy. But as far as my main understanding what I'm doing as a writer, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, uh, I put a lot of thought and a lot of work into what I'm writing

00:29:19.829 - 00:29:38.479

and saying and, and I like for people to, to be moved by it or, you know, entertained by it. No, that, that totally you've invested the time and so you won't be able to also, um, see, so you talked a little bit about, um working with,

00:29:38.489 - 00:30:00.849

um John Van Der, what was he like? He was a hoot of a guy. He was real serious about he, what he was doing musically. Uh, but he was, uh, you know, he, he, he made a real transition when I first met him times in Kansas

00:30:00.859 - 00:30:13.380

City and I got to know them a little bit. Uh, he and Michael Mas is particularly Michael played guitar in a band and, uh, his girlfriend ended up being a fan of mine and introduced me to Michael and of course I'd go see them all the

00:30:13.390 - 00:30:25.969

time. They, they, they kind of did a residency at a club there in a coffee house, the Vanguard coffeehouse in Kansas City, which is a folk plus, but occasionally they'd bring bands in there and, uh, they played there a lot and I'd just go and study

00:30:25.979 - 00:30:47.920

them and, and just was blown away by them. Well, I got to meet John and he was very uh intimidating. Me, very serious. Uh, you know, he had this wild curly hair, he looked kinda like a biker and uh he wasn't particularly friendly to me. Um,

00:30:49.329 - 00:31:01.089

and then later on when I started going to Texas and they were down there. Uh and we've done a couple of gigs in Kansas City over the years when we were both in town. At the same time, a couple of things just sort of happened and

00:31:01.239 - 00:31:16.270

got told him a little bit better there. And once I moved to Houston, he had kind of gone through some, some things in life. I think that, uh, he had mellowed a lot and he was very friendly and, uh, shake and I both really looked up

00:31:16.280 - 00:31:33.229

to him as a, he was a mentor. Both of us. Uh I know probably more to shake because Shake was really around him more. But, uh, I always really respect Sean, but he's very jovial, funny, funny guy, wise cracking guy. And, uh, you know, I always

00:31:33.239 - 00:31:57.290

had a big spliff about that big round. He was just, uh, and he just get up and sing his heart out. I mean, he was really one of the most soulful no singers ever been around and great guitar player. And he sort of, uh, he sort

00:31:57.300 - 00:32:11.670

of took on a persona of, of an old country blues guy, but he really could have done, I think anything musically he was, that was what he was really in love with and he did a great job. It was a real good guy, real generous fella.

00:32:12.280 - 00:32:30.780

Um, that was a sad, terrible, terrible loss. Um, so you, one of your bands here was called DC Three? Um, what was that band? Like? We were a power trio. I played electric guitar as a bass player, a drummer that beat the heck out of the

00:32:30.790 - 00:32:48.140

drums. And we were not doing folk music. I came out of the band with Shake. Uh, II, I don't know. I just started writing these songs that were very kind of urban and, you know, odd time signatures. Some of them and it didn't really fit with

00:32:48.150 - 00:33:03.949

the sort of country rock folk rock thing we were doing and the band who works, we work some of these things up and did them. But I felt there was a real, uh, it was almost kind of a sudden change. I don't know really what, what

00:33:03.959 - 00:33:20.260

prompted it. But, uh, what I was listening to, I was just kind of listening to other stuff and, and, uh, I was picking up on a lot of the punk music that was going on. I liked a lot of it. I thought it was, uh, I

00:33:20.270 - 00:33:36.900

love the energy of it and, uh, the of it, you know, but it was pretty cool. So I, I think I was sort of imitating some of that a little bit, I guess, and going back to my teenage years or something, rebellion and I started writing

00:33:36.910 - 00:33:54.489

these edgy things that just didn't quite fit. So, at some point I just decided, you know, and there were a lot of other factors. I just, I wasn't happy with where the band was going in a business way either. So I just, uh, quit one day

00:33:54.869 - 00:34:10.080

because it was, I really wasn't happy anymore. I woke up one day and realized how important to be able to be. Well, people in town just thought I lost my mind and the venues that we play a lot of them, most of them wouldn't even, wouldn't

00:34:10.090 - 00:34:26.889

book me, wouldn't book my band again. There was this real recoil kind of thing that happened, but there are a few places Anderson Far was one of them that, that would book DC three. And we went into that folk club and played, you know, louder than

00:34:26.899 - 00:34:39.229

anyone had ever played in there, I'm sure. But it was real, uh, sort of dance oriented. Uh We ended up in about a year. I ended up, uh, I took my own booking and I booked us in a lot of college clubs we played for a

00:34:39.239 - 00:34:53.729

lot of young people. Uh, plus they dance to the band. And so I was writing, you know, two or three songs a week for a while there for a year or two. And we'd get together 23 times a week and rehearse and every week we have

00:34:53.739 - 00:35:08.750

new songs to add to our list. We did some Costello and some Nick Lowe and some odd things, uh as well cover songs as well. So it was, it was a real nice chance to experiment with different time signatures. The electric guitar, which I hadn't messed

00:35:08.760 - 00:35:24.879

with in a long time. I really didn't play acoustic for a few years much at all. Uh, I was writing on my songs on the electric and a completely different look the way we dressed the energy of the show. It was just a different thing, kind

00:35:24.889 - 00:35:43.080

of new wave, punk kind of thing. Maybe power pop. Probably power pop would be more. Yeah, that's probably a more accurate description of it. And then, you know, I, I began writing some other stuff so that, that band, we went through quite a few personnel in

00:35:43.090 - 00:35:58.030

that band as well. It was interesting trying to find who would fit the band and who would stick with the band. So I had a, a bass player who I'd known in Los Angeles, a guy named Del and he, he came on board for the very

00:35:58.040 - 00:36:17.820

first of it, we started the band. We auditioned a bunch of drummers. We hired a young guy, Nick Gain. Nick lasted for, I don't know, maybe 56 months or something. And then he, he had to bow out because his girlfriend and, and uh, we ended up

00:36:17.830 - 00:36:34.379

hiring, you know, I had a woman drummer for about a week and a woman bass player for couple of weeks and people just would kind of flake out. Um, we ended up, uh, having AAA trio that lasted, uh, we, we were together at least a couple

00:36:34.389 - 00:36:51.739

of years and we replaced the drummer. Eventually. They all left too and I, I got a completely different bass player and drummer. So it was, it was like, uh I guess about six years the band was together uh in one form or another, we made a

00:36:51.750 - 00:37:07.020

single, we did AAA cassette tape in my living room. We recorded and released that then a single. Then we recorded an album project and went to L A and did some gigs there and had it mastered out there and as Perpetual Man and, and then it

00:37:07.030 - 00:37:23.939

morphed into a four piece group for a very short time called Nuclear Family. And we put out one album and, uh, and during that time, I've been writing some other things on my own, getting acoustic out and picking up some house concert gigs to make some

00:37:23.949 - 00:37:41.610

money and, and just kind of ventured into that avenue and really, really enjoyed it. And it's like, oh, ok, this, this, I can kind of go back to my roots again and, and did that, did the project and that was when I just kind of disbanded

00:37:41.620 - 00:37:57.530

the group finally. But it was a fun, fun few years there with that band. It was really got to experiment musically with a lot of things that I kind of had felt restricted about and a lot of it now I would never necessarily want anyone to

00:37:57.540 - 00:38:16.379

hear and I don't really do many of the songs anymore. But, but, uh, some of them I do want to, well, then maybe this would be a time. Do you wanna play one of those songs or one of the songs that you would have played when

00:38:16.389 - 00:38:36.729

you were with? Um Shake Russell? I could do that. Um Yeah, I, I don't really, I don't think I remember it either. Songs that I do the DC three. I mean, I could, I could dig around and recall one of them. Oh, yeah, maybe. Um Maybe

00:38:36.739 - 00:38:59.139

I'll do uh the song that I'm just gonna turn this, what I talk for a second here. It's got a little on here. This song I actually wrote, um, a long time ago. I think I read this, uh, uh maybe right before I graduated from high

00:38:59.149 - 00:39:39.899

school or right after. And it ended up being a song that we recorded. Shake and I recorded and on the album cover, it's mistakenly credited to Shake and uh uh the record level made it big. Is that the one with, um, so there's the, there's the

00:39:39.909 - 00:40:02.449

one with the, so it's listed as like Shake Russell, Dana Cooper. Um Marco and um van that's coming, it's coming home. Then there's the other one that's kind of got green and red on the cover. It's on that one as an MC A. Yeah. Yeah. Uh,

00:40:02.469 - 00:40:30.379

that's the band and this song is on there. It says this, this came out of a, I worked my way through, through Catholic high school. I, I worked jobs to pay my tuition. I was a janitor at the school and a dishwasher at the school. And

00:40:30.389 - 00:40:43.840

then I was a sign for a janitor at Cats Drugstore when it had been squared just three blocks from my school. And there's an old guy, old blues guy used to come in there a lot and he came in a couple of times a week and

00:40:43.850 - 00:40:59.550

he'd been a blues musician all his life and been shot and stabbed by his wives and girlfriends and stuff. You had these amazing stories and, uh, he was kind of tickled by this little quite skinny high school kid, you know, sweeping up the store, I guess.

00:40:59.560 - 00:41:42.870

And so, uh, I actually was inspired by him to write the song and, um, going down, going down slow. Do not, you let the rhythm now, going down too. You let the man hold me down, you know. Yeah. Going down, boom, down now.

00:41:50.850 - 00:42:17.139

Well, then that will cost you a dollar. Well, the first one you got is dream that cost you a dollar for it. That doesn't really have a soul. Mountain. I just feel so bound to me and going down, I'm going down, shooting not at the big

00:42:17.379 - 00:42:52.830

man going down to going down. Slow down to Houston. Look the baby now down. Did you? They calm down from the castle, down from your throat. You come down from your dying bed, down your eyes and leave you poor man alone your eyes and leave me

00:42:52.840 - 00:43:53.449

all alone. Going down, the going down, go down. You don't down going on you to let the A man going down, going down. You let that man. Yeah, no doubt down hard. And even the it hot I believe in the sun. Hard

00:43:53.459 - 00:45:01.719

to believe the Holy ghost. Some Blackwood or some sister mercy tells the 301 going down. Don't slow down, going down, do that, slow down, walking down. So in 1988 you moved to Nashville. Yeah. Um How I'm, I'm guessing

00:45:01.729 - 00:45:17.560

that you probably moved because um you were ready for a change. Yeah, definitely. It was ready for a change. I had some friends there who had actually been pester me for a few years to come there and check it out. Josh Leo who was one of

00:45:17.570 - 00:45:34.860

them. Josh was a guy who played. I mentioned earlier at Kansas City back in the sixties in the same coffee houses I played, he was sort of competitors and Josh I ran into again in uh unemployment line in L A one point out there and uh

00:45:35.250 - 00:45:51.780

we kind of reconnected. Well, you know, he, he had moved, he had, Josh has had quite a career and he's produced and with a lot of great artists played a lot of people. Uh back then he was working with, well, you know, he started with Kim

00:45:51.790 - 00:46:11.439

Carnes and South and people like that and uh Jimmy Buffet. So he moved to Nashville and he kept telling me you gotta come down here. It's really a, a cool scene. And uh and then another friend Jerry Van, who is also somewhere from Kansas City uh

00:46:11.449 - 00:46:21.909

and same thing he said, yeah, you ever wanna come over here? You know, you can stay on my couch and check it out and go meet with people. So I started doing that and uh kind of like I did my forays to Houston. I did the

00:46:21.919 - 00:46:40.600

same thing from Houston to Nashville. It took a like it was uh moved there 88 I guess, probably about 86. 87. I went over there for the first time. Checked it out. I was immediately embraced by a lot of people there. Um They really liked, I

00:46:40.610 - 00:46:57.040

took complicated stuff. I just recorded that cassette project. People loved it. I'd meet with somebody and they, they, you know, I mean, I had a representative at BM I there the time and he turned me on to different publishers and uh bug music I've worked with

00:46:57.050 - 00:47:15.620

who also met with them there. And they set me up with writers and cow people and, uh kind of, that was a different thing. I wasn't super comfortable with that. But, you know, it's interesting and, uh, so it took a while but, but, uh, that's a

00:47:15.629 - 00:47:30.030

year or so my wife wanted to, she was working at pencil that year, had been for a long time. She wanted to get away from the corporate world and, and, uh she'd kind of gone as high, you know, she could go there and as a woman.

00:47:30.040 - 00:47:49.020

So, uh I took her over to Nashville for a visit and we stayed at friend's place. The next day, we went down to Broad Broadway, went down the hill to downtown by where and all that is down there. And this is 19 Yeah, it was 80

00:47:49.280 - 00:48:08.500

88 and it was just, the town has grown a lot since then and she started kind of crying and she said it felt so terrible gonna move here. It's like a, it's like a hit town. She grew up Pittsburgh and lived in Houston like, well, you

00:48:08.510 - 00:48:22.870

know, give it, give it a, give it a little time. And uh I've been coming over and playing open mics and stuff and meeting a lot of great up and coming people, songwriters and made a lot of friends uh before we'd ever moved here. So we

00:48:22.879 - 00:48:39.719

kind of plugged into a nice group of people and somehow 11 of the people we knew worked for Rodney Crow and Rosanne. Uh and, and she, uh my wife auditioned for a job as an assistant to them. But in the meantime, she, she's waiting here from

00:48:39.729 - 00:48:53.060

that, she got an offer to run an art gallery there in town. So it was, we were kind of, and she's a painter and so she plugged in immediately to the art crowd there. So we were very fortunate in that, you know, between the music connection

00:48:53.070 - 00:49:08.360

and the art connection. Um We were sort of plugged in in a way that, you know, you might not normally be so, but it was a real struggle. It was, it was, you know, I, a lot of what I was going back and writing kind of

00:49:08.370 - 00:49:26.080

fit what was going on at the time. One friend of mine called it the Integrity Scare was when the, uh you know, Dolly and Emmy Lou and, and Linda Ronstadt trio and there was uh um Katie Lang was there and Chris Rosanne and Rodney and Bill

00:49:26.090 - 00:49:41.810

Keynes and Foster and Lloyd and all these interesting things were happening. Uh They're out of the norm for what was doing before that. And so that was all little encouraging. And then it literally, it, we were there about a year and it's kind of like the

00:49:41.820 - 00:50:03.530

door just slammed it just that went away and, and all these people that couldn't really get in going there, they went elsewhere and, um, so, but we stayed on there and really a few years into our stay and we've been there now for, what is it?

00:50:03.540 - 00:50:22.919

26 years or something like this? Yeah. It's a long time. I never lived anywhere that long. But the thing that's kept us there has been our friendships with people, the community we've, we've tapped into their, and, and Linda's work, she's always had a job. She enjoyed

00:50:22.929 - 00:50:43.750

it. She works again. But now as a graphic designer, so, um I could live anywhere really. I don't have to live in Nashville, but it's been an interesting balancing act there and it is for everyone, you know, because seen a lot change over the years there.

00:50:45.379 - 00:50:57.540

And initially it was just, you have to co write with people. You have to choose whether you're a writer or you're an artist. And I never, again, I just, I never always went against that. It's like we gonna choose anything. I'm both, I'm gonna do both.

00:50:57.689 - 00:51:16.820

I've always had my touring and my own recordings to, to kind of eke out my living and haven't had to rely on, you know, get hit country song or something. And I would have nothing against that. That'd be great, but it's just not what I really

00:51:16.830 - 00:51:36.260

pursued. I mean, I did a little early on but I did, I realized, uh I can't really, I can't really do that, you know, and keep my sanity. So when, what when I, I don't know if it came up actually during our old history, but in

00:51:36.270 - 00:51:51.629

talking with Richard Dobson, he, he talked about when anybody goes to Nashville, the way that they write a song changes, he can, he can always tell like that person's been in Nashville. Do you feel like when you went to Nashville, that, that kind of changed the

00:51:51.639 - 00:52:09.199

way that you wrote, it, changed your music. Uh, it, it did. Uh, and, and what i, it's funny because another friend of mine named Rick Besford, who I had some success early on, uh, a couple of George Jones songss and, and I heard him one night

00:52:09.209 - 00:52:19.870

at, at an open mic thing. I was like, wow, this is the guy that wrote that song, my gosh, I love him. So we, we, we started with a friendship and one of the first things he told me and this is early, he said, don't lose

00:52:20.020 - 00:52:39.459

the thing that you have, don't, don't lose that because you can't, it's hard to get back and this town will, will kind of impose that on you. So it was always e even without that, it was a little guarded about it anyway. And, um, I certainly

00:52:39.469 - 00:52:53.290

wasn't going there as a novice or anything. So, but it did is I co-wrote with people. Of course, we would, we would approach songs in a different way than, than I would on my own. And what I found was that over a couple of years time

00:52:53.300 - 00:53:09.379

there, I was writing all these songs going into offices and writing songs and none of it was a very natural process and, and what we ended up with was a song but it didn't, none of them ended up being a song. Anyone else did and neither

00:53:09.389 - 00:53:26.699

of us would do it. And, uh, with an occasional exception, um, and I actually woke up one day and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna quit doing this. Now, I'm gonna go back and relearn how to write a song on my own because I

00:53:26.709 - 00:53:45.379

just haven't been doing that for a couple of years and uh and not write a song with any agenda of write a song. So I wrote a whole album's worth of songs that year, uh which became Miracle Mile, which Josh Leo produced. He's just, you know,

00:53:45.389 - 00:54:05.800

prominent figure in Nashville, but we did a, a pop, this was a pop folk album uh that didn't fit in anywhere in Nashville. Now, the songs fit in, in Nashville. But I felt like I really accomplished something just in the writing of those songs. And the,

00:54:05.810 - 00:54:22.649

and the, and the project itself was a blast. It was just so much fun to do all done there in Nashville with mainstream uh art uh musicians that play on mainstream country records. But the thing that's also true there is that there's a hunger there amongst

00:54:22.659 - 00:54:44.000

musicians and songwriters and artists for some different. So all the project, I got a lot of projects there now, all in Nashville and they're all different. They've all been exciting and a lot of fun and the musicians are just impeccable and they always, you know, there's,

00:54:44.010 - 00:55:05.379

you, you sense that they're really uh excited about the project because they're not just going in and doing the same old thing all the time. So, um yeah, it, it's, it's been an interesting convoluted sort of process there. Uh, I was sucked into that, that main

00:55:05.620 - 00:55:20.770

stream national thing at first and then just pulled out of it and managed to, I can still go and fit songs to people in Nashville though. They'll open their door to me. They don't say I'm not that guy. And occasionally I have a song that just

00:55:20.780 - 00:55:41.939

sort of naturally seems to me like it would fit someone in Nashville, so I'll pitch that. But, um, yeah, I watch a lot of friends there, songwriters, many of them aren't really perform as much. So they're just, uh, absorbed in that, in that scene. There. All

00:55:41.949 - 00:55:58.219

the rejection comes all the time to them from publishers and artists record companies and I don't know how someone deals with that even when I was in the middle of that. Uh, and I'd write something I thought was cool that we get all put down and

00:55:59.409 - 00:56:11.100

I go on the road and I play that song for an audience and they'd love it and I'd have that. It's like, and I'd take it back to people there and say people love this song, don't you get it? It resonates with people. I mean, I

00:56:11.110 - 00:56:31.889

pay attention to that. If it doesn't, I'm not gonna do it anymore. And, uh, that means something, doesn't it? Well, yeah, it's not the same as he's a business. Do you wanna play something from a Miracle Mile? Um, if you like, yeah, I could do that.

00:56:31.899 - 00:57:02.830

Um Yeah, I could do that for sure. Let's see here. Um Yeah, this was, uh mm, it's called Standing Mom Way and, and, and this song actually ended up being recorded by a couple of people. Not, not Nashville people. That's also funny how a song that

00:57:02.840 - 00:57:24.360

you think might be for a particular artist or I had to experience more. We got a Hold me one time. She said, I heard the song Heroes and I can't remember what it was. II I really wanna do it but I can't remember what it was.

00:57:24.370 - 00:57:40.610

And, and so I started sending her songs, you know. No, it's not that one. It's not that one. I consider her 20 things. And then she meant, she said, I remember she remember uh a phrase from it and I was like, oh, hit the ground running

00:57:40.620 - 00:57:57.770

and was that the song? And it was, it would have been, if there was a song I would have thought anyone would, would be interested in doing, you know, this very personal kind of obscure song. But, um, this song standing on way is a, it's on

00:57:57.780 - 00:59:10.229

there on the there go giving it easily. Trying too hard to please soft in the middle, faithlessly chicken out on me. I mean, the big machine riddle frightened. I get my give questioning where, how watching my life go by and

00:59:10.239 - 01:00:02.120

I don't want, oh contra me begging to disagree, making mistakes in threes wrong. And I know it too proud to show him. I'm just standing in my own, standing in my home. I say you that satisfied my way. Tricky. Don't be so darn she, you win.

01:00:18.159 - 01:01:01.110

We are through. I have had a room for two. I'm stepping right over that because here I come banging my broken drum. She's in that grin, son, I'm wanting the soul. There will be, thing is my goal. There will be no more. I live in my

01:01:01.149 - 01:02:03.439

home. Here goes me it in my no boss. Nice standing around. Um So we're actually getting pretty close to the end. Um You um keep a really active touring schedule. Has this always been the case?

01:02:03.449 - 01:02:18.139

Um Has the touring scene or gigs changed since the seventies which we kind of touched on a little bit. The venues have changed. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's all, yeah, it's all really, really changed. It's interesting. Of course, back then there was this whole coffeehouse circuit which

01:02:18.149 - 01:02:34.760

went all over the States and even around the world and, and, uh, I kind of, I, I tapped into that a little late but I did get to play a lot of those places on my tour. Um, a few of them are still left out there,

01:02:34.770 - 01:02:53.300

you know, they kind of become this nonprofit sort of historic sites that have been preserved basically, you know, and, and, uh, but that scene really, really changed a lot and of course, uh just, gosh, so many times, I mean, from the time I had that album

01:02:53.310 - 01:03:08.870

on Electra and that was again, sort of toward the end of that, er, little era of all these singer songwriters that were, were doing things, Eric Shape and James Taylor and Johnny Mitchell and Jackson Brown and all these folks that were uh kind of in the

01:03:08.879 - 01:03:29.320

mainstream as singer songwriters and then disco came in and uh those people who were established, you know, Paul Simon and people like that, they kept doing their thing but it got really hard for emerging people and that was kind of how, I mean, it was interesting.

01:03:29.330 - 01:03:41.919

I, I sort of bypassed that. Uh I, I, not immediately but there a couple of years and then I joined the band with Shake and, and we just had our own thing and I, we didn't have to worry about dis or everything else. We did our

01:03:41.929 - 01:03:58.000

deal and people came out so it was fine, but then I saw uh, even in, you know, the paths I took changing my musical directions along the way, but I was kind of going back to the singer songwriter thing. And now it's, yeah, I mean, I've,

01:03:58.010 - 01:04:14.320

uh, I noticed that, uh, every year it's about the same, you know, I play about the same number of gigs, play, all of the same places will have me back in a year or two and then always a new emerging coffee houses or, or house concerts

01:04:14.330 - 01:04:30.860

more often concert series. And, uh, and this year going in this year, I noticed there's a big uh change. There are a lot of openings in my schedule. They're starting to get filled in. But this year looks like it's gonna be a little more challenging to

01:04:30.870 - 01:04:54.439

uh to fill in as many dates as I normally do. And we're early in the year. So it's uh hard to say that I think, you know, like to go see a big concert used to be in the good old days, you know, you can go

01:04:54.449 - 01:05:08.620

see a concert, you could afford to see a concert, you might see several concerts in a year. Now. I mean, to go see a big major athletes coming through town, a lot of people that's where they'll spend their money on entertainment for the year. They spend

01:05:08.649 - 01:05:27.239

100 to $300 to go see you too, or stones or somebody coming through. And uh that's really, that's hurt live music a lot. I think the same is true with the, with plays and, and, you know, in New York, you know, you have to spend a

01:05:27.250 - 01:05:48.300

lot of money. It's like, it's entertainment, entertainment has been geared for people who have money, not people who don't. So that's an interesting environment that we live in and kind of deal with. Uh, but I'm fortunate that I have such a history. Uh, on the one

01:05:48.310 - 01:06:04.060

hand, sometimes I feel like maybe it impedes me a little bit because I'm, I'm getting older now and old white guy with the guitar is not necessarily the most the hand. But, um I think the experience that I bring and the stories that I have that

01:06:04.070 - 01:06:19.800

all kind of makes it something a little different. And, um, um, I think it's gonna continue to be a place for me to do that, but sometimes now you have to sort of create your own venues. Like I encourage, I go out to my, my fans

01:06:19.810 - 01:06:35.060

and I say, look, anybody interested in doing a house concert. If you haven't done one, we'll help you figure it out and more and more people are stepping up and doing that. Uh The audience is getting older and that's, uh that's a concern to people my

01:06:35.070 - 01:06:55.620

age, you know. Yeah, you wanna stay pertinent and you wanna keep appealing to younger people. Um, that gap, I don't, I haven't figured out how one bridges that gap. It's just, there exists. I know that when young people happen to show up in an audience, they're

01:06:55.629 - 01:07:18.469

usually really taken with it. I like it. Uh, put on a broader scale, you know, so everything, radio, the, the music business itself, how the music is delivered, uh, from wire to, to vinyl, to cassette, to H eight track tapes. Like, and then, you know, to

01:07:18.479 - 01:07:40.340

C DS and now that's going to become obsolete and what will, you know, what will artists sell? Mhm. Uh You know, there are, there are a lot of concerns uh for people like myself out there. I mean, I think that older people definitely will have to

01:07:40.350 - 01:07:53.659

learn how to download music. A lot of them just resist it. People like to have a CD at a show that's where I usually sell them and because it's a souvenir, the fact that you're there and you're there, you autograph a form and it's kind of

01:07:53.669 - 01:08:10.090

a thing, you know, but when that goes away, I don't know what, what there will be. But I've always really, I've always tried to think ahead and think outside the box a little bit and uh find ways to keep, keep it going so, so far, so

01:08:10.100 - 01:08:31.560

good, cheaper, keep playing who to, whoever will listen. When you think back over the music that you've written over the years, can you talk about kind of the changes that's gone through for different kind of lyrical themes? That you've been attracted to at different phases. Have

01:08:31.569 - 01:08:48.240

you changed the way that you play? Uh, yeah. Yeah. All that. Uh, for sure. I, I, uh, the writing part of it, um, you know, when I first started writing songs, I'm pretty sure I wrote lyrics out first or wrote a poem or something and then

01:08:48.250 - 01:09:07.049

I'd find a way to put music to it. Uh, occasionally that would be the case but it's all over the place now, how I write a song and I take more time with songs often now. Uh Occasionally, well, it just happened and I'll write it in

01:09:07.060 - 01:09:23.668

a day or a few hours, but uh very often, um I'll have an idea. Now I get a lot of musical ideas and I'm always capturing those on the lower quarter or whatever. Uh And then I'll kind of review those, but that whole writing process has

01:09:23.679 - 01:09:50.139

definitely changed. It kind of continues to. Um So, uh and the themes themselves of course, uh have gone from teenage love and teenage angst to adult love, adult angst and, and, uh, and uh II, I tend to, um I'm not sure how much I'm really conscious

01:09:50.148 - 01:10:07.589

of this, but, but I guess I'm gonna try to write songs that, uh, are uplifting to people. Sometimes I'll write just a depressing song and, but I do, I, I want to, I want to evoke some emotion in people and I want it to be something

01:10:07.600 - 01:10:27.700

they can relate to personally. So I think the songs have, my songs have gotten more and more personal, you know, from the viewpoint, I'm writing them. Um, I, I really want to, I'm kind of, I'm getting to a stage where I want to write more story

01:10:27.709 - 01:10:44.319

songs. I've done some of that, but I really want to write about some other characters. Uh, and, uh, not necessarily from my point of view and, and I enjoy doing that. I, I'm, I'm making a point of doing that uh coming up here. But uh a

01:10:44.330 - 01:11:02.620

lot of my stuff is, it's, yeah, it's real personal. It's from my own personal viewpoint. And I think if uh the songs I like of, of other writers, um Joni Mitchell, for instance, is a huge influence on me, Paul Simon too. And I think their songs

01:11:02.629 - 01:11:20.859

are that way. They're very, they're not necessarily story songs. They're very, very much from inside themselves. And uh but other people can relate to that. So that's always kind of what I'm after. And the playing part of it really has changed a lot too because uh

01:11:20.870 - 01:11:37.009

I went back and listened to, uh this is quite a few years back now, but I went back with some very old early recordings and I started out playing with thumb and finger picks in an old kind of folky finger picking style. And, uh I don't

01:11:37.020 - 01:11:54.180

even remember when I quit doing that, but it was pretty early on, uh, when I was playing coffee houses, I started II, I listened to some flat picking players and so I wanted to, to learn that. So I started to do both and it's sort of

01:11:54.189 - 01:12:07.660

morphed into the same where I, I don't, I really never use some of my finger picks. I have someone at home occasionally I put them on and I'll play and it just feels so unnatural to me because I develop my own thing. Now, I'm comfortable with

01:12:07.669 - 01:12:22.029

it. So I just use a flat pick and then I can finger pick as well. And then sometimes I'll, you know, palm it and then I'll, and use my thumb and, and fingers for a softer sound for dynamics. But those are kind of unconscious things that

01:12:22.040 - 01:12:42.209

just happen uh over time and uh I can't go back and, and, and play the way that I, I did in the beginning. Uh So it's kind of interesting and of course, uh I've learned a lot over the years, there's plenty to learn, but I work

01:12:42.220 - 01:12:57.330

a lot of open tunings which I, it started out with the intention of never doing that. Then when I started playing with a couple of them and say, I'm, I'm just gonna limit this. I'm not gonna get too independent and I'll play gigs sometimes for, I

01:12:57.339 - 01:13:12.770

could play all night with, without ever playing in standard tuning. I do still write songs in standard tuning too, but I have so many now and so many different tunings. Uh, but I like that and as a solo person and I have my limitations as a

01:13:12.779 - 01:13:30.399

player, I've, I've found that, that it's really helped me, uh to, um, to write songs to find different voicings that I just couldn't find in them for standard tuning. And, uh it's a little bit of a pain to go in and out of these things. But

01:13:30.490 - 01:13:47.700

then I've incorporated that. That's a good time for me to tell a story or, you know, it takes people, I don't have to stand there and concentrate on chanting for five minutes. And uh so that's all. Yeah, it's, it's all just kind of evolved into and,

01:13:47.709 - 01:14:07.500

and to what I'm doing now, it, it, it's kind of interesting to dissect it. So, is there kind of anything else that you would like to talk about? Anything else you feel like you need to put out there? Oh, I don't know. I'm, I'm not sure

01:14:07.509 - 01:14:27.729

what it would be. I don't have any real pearls of wisdom for anyone. Uh I do think I, you know, it's interesting. I, I remember when the birds came out doing Bob Dylan songs and there were pop hits. I remember uh uh someone was asking about

01:14:27.740 - 01:14:45.520

that because they called folk rock and, and talk about the purity of folk music, you know, and, and he said, uh it's all folk music, folk music is music of the times I thought that was an interesting perspective on it all. And in that sense, you

01:14:45.529 - 01:15:04.200

could say pop music was definitely folk music and in a true sense of, of, uh, the history of folk music being socially conscious and, and, uh, or that aspect of it being political and all that. Uh, yeah, it really was, it really was folk music. Uh,

01:15:04.759 - 01:15:21.560

and, uh, but, you know, I've always kind of butted up against that where I felt like that's just always been an issue is it's where, what I do fits. It was an issue when I was on Elect Records. It's always been an issue with record labels

01:15:21.569 - 01:15:33.450

through the years. It's like, well, yeah, but, you know, it's too eclectic. You're doing this and then you're doing that, you know, you just need to do this and I, I'm just, I get bored. I, I don't want to do that. I want, I want to

01:15:33.930 - 01:15:54.689

do other things. So, oh, for some of the folk purists out there, uh, I've not been impressed by a lot of them over the years and I'm actually the next recording I'm making, I'm making all acoustic. There's not gonna be any electric instruments on it at

01:15:54.700 - 01:16:14.209

all. Ok. With this idea of, well, maybe if I do that, maybe folk radio, what exists, if it's still out there will embrace this. Maybe. And, uh, but I, I don't know. Plus I've just, I wanted to do that for a while. And, uh, but I

01:16:14.220 - 01:16:25.109

tell you what, it's hard, it's hard for me to do that because I part of me kind of riddles that it's like, yeah. But, you know, I want to put something to be to some of these songs and, but, uh, I think we can make an

01:16:25.120 - 01:16:43.830

acoustic record that has an edge to it, but still acoustics. So it would be an interesting experiment. And, uh, I've just never been too concerned with what it was called. You know, the style of it's, would you put yourself like, um, in that kind of that

01:16:43.839 - 01:17:00.259

broader genre, that kind of popped up in the nineties called Americana? Well, a lot of what I do does get classified as that and, uh, but then this last record I did, I, I, you know, we pitched it to American radio and about a third of

01:17:00.270 - 01:17:20.910

the stations played it. Um So I don't, I don't really know that again. There's just the problem is it Americana, is it? I haven't thought of it as folk music for a long time but, uh, um I think probably with categories being what they are. Americana

01:17:20.919 - 01:17:48.899

probably does probably fits there as well as anywhere. Um, but then I'll throw a curveball and, you know, that's not OK. Well, um, I guess we can leave with if you want to play something from the upcoming album if you feel comfortable. Yeah, I could do

01:17:48.919 - 01:18:15.850

that. Yeah, I could definitely do that fine. I should appreciate you doing this. Um, and, uh, yeah, this, this might be a good one to do. It's, uh, um, well, you know what I'll do, uh, instead of that one, I'll do this other one that's also

01:18:15.859 - 01:18:42.259

gonna be in the new record because this is, I, I, I kind of like the, this is kind of a rallying kind of a song to me and therefore it sort of fits into the f brother and sisterhood. And especially since we're sitting here on Inauguration

01:18:42.270 - 01:19:04.169

Day, the end of the world is raining toads outside right now. Flames are leaping up from the ground. Uh But, uh, yeah, this is called I'm a traveler too and, uh came out of the something I heard this homeless lady say one time we walked by

01:19:04.180 - 01:19:21.149

her in a parking lot very shy and she looked at the ground and she said, do you have a dollar for a traveler? And it really touched me and, and it just, you know, it was such a, that idea that we are all, you know, like

01:19:21.609 - 01:19:37.080

that, all part of one big soul, all part of the same plan and no matter what we believe or think of beat one another. We're here in this time and space, this place together, something very special that we all kind of take for granted. And so

01:19:56.720 - 01:20:21.520

it's a cloudy all day, the sun shining in my heart, a smile. On my face but the mirror says I'm falling know I gave everything away. What else could I do? I'm a clothes are all free. I got a shine on my worn out shoes. Hello,

01:20:21.529 - 01:20:59.209

unraveling. I'm unraveling just like you. Hello? Traveler? Oh, I'm a traveler. All these folks in a hurry. Tommy Roe. You got trouble and worry following us where we found myself stranded, broke down a busted flat. Some child pulls over and reaches out of helping you out.

01:21:01.240 - 01:22:00.680

Hello, unraveling. I'm unraveling just like you traveler. I'm a traveler. An act of kindness can make me start to cry. But that don't mean um the thing that defines us in this uncertain life is a love that inside and you trouble. So that how

01:22:00.890 - 01:22:32.939

are you doing down the road? But you know, it's shorter than the road behind. If there's something to be said right now, there will be time a wonderful life pay. I'll get worried sometimes waiting for someone to say hello. A rattler. I'm not rattling just like

01:22:32.950 - 01:23:28.100

you. The moon traveler. I'm a traveler too. Hello? Oh, I'm a traveler to, you know, sure time you travel, travel. So I'm a all right. Well, thank you so much for coming in and doing this oral history. Thank you really appreciate it. It's been a really

01:23:28.109 - 01:23:30.580

great experience. Thanks. Thanks. Appreciate it.