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The time is now 1235. This is Polly Moore. Today is uh May 28th, 1969. The time is 130. This is interview 25 type seven side two. A meter reading is now 700. The interviewee is uh Doctor Clark Reed. That's re ad is that right? Uh Doctor

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Clark uh just so I can test this microphone. Would you mind giving me your uh a little bit, a little bit on your educational background? Where did you do your graduate work? I did my graduate work here at Rice. Uh I was an undergraduate student at

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Tulane University and uh then went to the University of Texas School of Medicine uh for a couple of years uh under the auspices of the United States Navy. Then uh left medical school and came to graduate school here, took my phd in 1950. Uh then went

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to the University of California to uh teach where I remained for four years. After that, I went to Johns Hopkins University uh for five years. And then I was invited to come back to Rice as Professor of Biology in 1959. And I've been here since 1959.

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Well, you've been, uh, you've been a resident on several Campi, haven't you? Yes, Campi. Oh. the purpose of our interview today is to get your, um, your, uh, recollections of this famous four day weekend that took place back in, in February, uh, as a little background

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on that, uh, uh, a clue to your attitude and outlook. Um, I'd be interested in your, your ideas about, uh what do you think the function, the role of the president of a university like Rice uh should be? Well, the president they had seen in my

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mind in this type of institution is the voice of the faculty to the trustees and the voice of the trustees to the faculty. And uh he serves uh as Clark K says, is the mediator for the factions of the university. Uh He, when it is necessary

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helps uh for understanding between students and faculty. But more often, I think he's the buffer and mediator between trustees and faculty. And uh this means that he has to be a man who has the confidence of both. And I think that was the root of the

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problem and the masters of the incident. Um Masterson was not a man who had the confidence of the faculty and uh my own personal uh prejudices if you will about Doctor Masterson were based on my experiences with him when he was the master of Hanson College.

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And I was an associate in that college. And uh this was some, some uh two years before uh the uh the question of his becoming president rose and he got the associates of the college together one day at a luncheon meeting and proceeded to lecture us

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on uh how we should not uh say anything that was critical of the administration of the university with regard to their specific handling of a student uh disciplinary problem. Well, this to me uh was unheard of uh I'm a mature uh professional member of the faculty

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and I do not have to be instructed uh by a man in his position on uh such things as not saying something. I, I mean, I, I have re retained the freedom to make a fool of myself. Uh If I'm wrong, I think my colleagues will

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point it out to me. But uh I, this to me uh indicated that this man was an authoritarian personality and I resigned as an associate of the college on the spot. Uh Subsequently, when he stepped out of the position as master of college and Professor Sass

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became Master Sass asked me uh to re aili with Hanson College as an associate, which I was quite happy to do. And I'm an associate of the college. Now, what was the reaction when you resigned on the spot? Uh He didn't seem to understand why I

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was upset. Uh I was the only one of the associates that reacted this way, several of them went over and sat down at Sammy's and complained about it, but uh uh let it sort of slide and I felt strongly about it that it wasn't something that

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you could let slide. Now, this, uh in addition to this, uh I served on the faculty council for five years and uh during that period, uh Doctor Masterson was Dean of the Humanities and I had the opportunity to observe him uh in what might be called

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a semi private discussions of policy matters. And again, I was uh I was not impressed with his capacity to serve as president of the university. So I was uh one of the signers of the, the petition that was presented to the in the faculty meeting on

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the Friday afternoon and uh which the group I believe has come to be known as the unholy 61 or something. Uh I was about name number three on the list. Did you help draft the petition? No, I did not help draft the petitioner. Uh I knew

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it was being drafted and was anxious to sign it. And uh it was amazing that we managed to get 61 names because it was raining cats and dogs that afternoon. And uh people had to run these around on the campus and they only, I think they

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only had about an hour to gather signatures for the faculty meeting. And it was quite amazing to me that they managed to find 61 people even on campus on a Friday. And I know a great many other people who later expressed the view that they would

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have signed, but they hadn't seen the petitioner simply hadn't been available. I mentioned your comment about your experience with Doctor Masterson doing in this faculty council. Uh uh First of all, what, what kind of committee is that and what is their purpose in? Well, this is

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a, a group made up of uh six full professors who are elected by the faculty to advise the president on policy matters. They also approve all promotions in the university faculty members. Uh They, they discuss and advise the president on uh all sorts of policy matters

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including things ranging from a change in the curriculum to uh rules governing student publications, to the whole whole string of things. They appoint the, they also serve as what you could call a committee on committees because they advise on the appointment of the membership of all

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of the rest of the standing committees on the campus. So it's a powerful group in terms of policy and president during President Pitcher's administration. I I know of uh very few cases in which he failed to take the advice of the faculty counsel. Uh He would

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sometimes join the argument uh which was good because then we could see the way uh he felt about something. Uh it was, it was not and still is not. A rubber stamp uh council. And I think that uh it's it served the university as a policy

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making group which uh has a strong faculty representation. And since the members are, are elected by the faculty, it uh has been, I think reasonably representative, there is a restriction that I believe two members are elected from the Science and Engineering division, two members from the

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humanities and two members at large does uh was was uh Masterson on this committee or did you speak with him? Other administrators sat in on the faculty council and uh the Dean of the Humanities. Uh The then Dean of Engineering, which subsequently became a Science and

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Engineering dean, um Chancellor, Cron and Dean Richter, dean of the graduate school. And these at that time, four administrators besides the president sat in on faculty council meetings. I think the numbers are a little higher now, but they've just revised the faculty council to add more

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faculty to it so that the faculty will continue to outweigh the administrators in terms of the vote. When you say that uh you're not impressed with his abilities to be a college president? Were these mainly administrative abilities or what uh what kind of things came to

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your attention? What qualities? Well, for one thing I frequently discovered inconsistencies in things which Doctor Masterson told young faculty members in the humanities and the answers to the same questions which he gave in the faculty council. Um There I don't like to use the term dishonesty,

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but uh I was not impressed with his uh his uh ability to be candid with people on things that really counted. And um sometimes these were things that were important to individual faculty members, um not face saving things or no, I would term it a two

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faced approach to two things. Now, that's bad for an administrator. He has to be in my opinion, uh able to not say something rather than to say something that's essentially dishonest misleading as well to say, simply say, well, I don't want to discuss that with you

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rather than to uh falsify it or put, put the wrong face on. And Masterson, uh uh he always reminded me of a book called What makes Sammy run if you talk to him for a little while and he was in the least bit uncomfortable, perspiration popped

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out on his forehead. Uh He was a very uh very sweaty palmed man. He was worried all the time. He wanted to be loved and I think uh failed in that particular regard. That's a highly subjective uh criticism. I, I know they, another thing which uh

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as an administrator I think he failed with was a tendency to come to the faculty council with a problem that related to the humanities. And uh then if the, it looked as though there were any opposition from the president, he would cave in immediately, he'd sell

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out his own people in the humanities radically very quickly. Uh If on the other hand, it was a matter of a few, a couple of faculty members who uh wanted to argue, discuss this with him, you know, well, he would sort of turn an appeal to

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the president for support. Uh There was a tendency to have a certain amount of uh of disrespect and per perhaps uh perhaps a stronger word than that should be used uh for faculty opinion and uh to kowtow to the administrator above him here again, I think

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this is a bad uh quality uh in a man who has to serve in a position between a board of trustees and the faculty. I think the faculty would come out on the short end of the stick regularly under such an administrator. I think you would

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bow to the wishes of the trustees and the trustees are not always right in the operation of the university. You um uh just an analogy of the book of what made Sammy run suggest maybe one other uh motive. And that's the, the, the possibility of ambition,

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a man of enormous ambition. Do you think that might have accounted for one of the reasons and who would use uh expeditious means to attain whatever goals appeared in sight? Uh I think he would sacrifice integrity to, to expediency uh when this was necessary uh with

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ambition as the driving force. Yes, I that's all part of what makes Sammy run. It's part of the syndrome. That's right. Yeah. When, um, you might do well in industry, some parts of industry. What was your reaction when, uh, when Kenneth Fitzer resigned? Uh, well, I

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was quite dismayed, uh, uh, because, uh, I had strong feelings about pitcher. Uh, I didn't always agree with pitcher but he was a man of enormous vision. Uh, he was ruthless when it was necessary to be ruthless but he was ruthless about the right things. He

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was ruthless about quality. Uh He demanded the rigor, uh intellectual rigor. He uh had little excuse and a little patience with, with people who were uh intellectually sloppy. And uh he had enormous uh capacities also for tolerating uh attacks uh tolerating idiosyncrasies of various people at

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the personal level. And at a university faculty, you have uh all sorts of idiosyncrasy. He could be attacked directly by uh uh people who didn't like what he had done about something and, and never lose his cool. Uh You mean in a person to person, in

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a person to person? How did you describing this quality? This is an unusual uh uh uh aspect of the, of the, of the administrator's uh bag of steel, so to speak. It's not one you run into very often and I haven't heard, I haven't, I haven't

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heard this analysis of uh you know, I, he, I have, I've heard him on several occasions not turn the other cheek I don't mean that, but, uh, not be excited by a direct attack and to then proceed to analyze it and explain his position and then

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leave it and that's my position, you know. And, uh, I'm sorry if you don't agree with it. And that takes, that takes a big man to do that. This Kenneth pitcher is a man who was not only big on the outside, but he was big on

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the inside. Sometimes you're disappointed with Big men because you expect them to be big on the inside and they're not, I'm not sure we have an in here. Let me get this. Uh, wait, I already asked you that before. Um That's another reason why we're doing

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it here. This is in, in this area. This is one place where it's, uh it's safe. You don't have to worry about turning on the, the system. I haven't heard that bug off yet, but I understand that it's a, it's a terr fire. The pitcher also

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pressed the faculty, I think for quality and that may have at times create difficulties for individuals. Uh but it's not something you can fault him for. Um He, uh I think had uh uh compassion when he had the case of a man, for example, who, whose

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qualities didn't uh really merit keeping him on the faculty if you're gonna maintain high standards. Uh But uh he didn't fold and, uh and uh do the easy thing which would be, to keep such a person. He was ruthless at the right places and he knew

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what a university was about. He, he, he knew what the give and take uh, of a university consisted of and he, I think understood the role of the president if he had a weakness. Uh and perhaps it is one, he had problems at first in learning

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how to delegate responsibility. Uh But then we've had a tradition of presidents who didn't delegate responsibility in this institution. I remember President Houston telling me once that when he came here and he asked, uh where are the files in the President's office? He was told there

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weren't any files, there were no personnel files other than those that were bookkeeping files in connection with salaries because Lovett ran the university out of his vest pocket. And uh you know, there it was a completely personal affair. Uh Houston at least uh put in files

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and then the pitcher uh when he first came, I think had problems with delegating responsibility, but then he learned how to do that rather quickly. That's another thing you could watch a pitcher grow uh while he was president, which is another exceptional quality. No, Doctor Masterson

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uh didn't fit this mold. He wasn't a man of this quality. Uh It would have been a uh it would have been a real drop in terms of the quality of a man who would be sitting in the presidency. Now, the president here is in a

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much more important position. It is in a school like the University of Texas where the president is far enough removed. Uh because of the sheer numbers of people that he may think that he presses a button in his office and something happens over in the zoology

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department or something, but it doesn't necessarily happen at the University of Texas. Yes. You have an enormous dilution factor. It has to go through too many deans and other places before it gets where it's supposed to go. And that's not true. Here, Pitzer, uh Pitzer wanted

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to talk to the department chairman about something. He just picked up the telephone and called him up on the phone, uh all during his administration, I always had the feeling as chairman of the department that I can walk over and walk into his office if he

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wasn't busy and talk to him. Uh Here again, this was a, a highly personalized relationship for an administrator and uh I would never have been able to do that with Masterson. You seem to have an unusual grasp for uh the, the uh the administrative uh mind,

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so to speak, which uh in my translation, so unusual for uh uh for a scientist. Well, I've thought about it a lot. I see. As a matter of fact, I was leaving Rice before the Masterson crisis. I had informed uh they uh executive officer at that

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time, Dean Gordon, that it was my intent to resign from the University to accept the position as Provost of the State University of New York at Stony Brook. And uh this uh appointment had been offered to me informally, I had informally accepted it, it had because

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the salary was outside the scale. Uh They were, they were paying me quite a large salary to come there. It had to be approved in the legislature of the State of New York. And as a consequence, uh this was quite a slow affair and uh it

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went to the, it went up through the university channels in New York and, and got to the legislative budget committee in November of 1968. But when the Masterson incident occurred, uh it had not yet come back down and so the appointment had not yet been totally

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formalized. The Masterson thing changed my mind about leaving Rice. Uh To me, that's why I think for me, it was a very profound experience uh because uh I thought that it was unique uh in terms of what was happening in American universities. One, it was a

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situation in which the faculty and students cooperated to oppose uh something which an administration was doing, but to oppose it in an orderly meaningful uh manner and to come to a satisfactory resolution of it which uh without occupying any buildings or breaking any furniture or uh

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you know, engaging in any, any sorts of activities that could be construed as illegal or antisocial. And uh so I, yes, I thought a lot about being an administrator and I've, uh I've known some very good administrators and some very bad administrators. Uh I was a

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chair as chairman of the department here. I have had some, some experience as an administrator. Uh I think I was a pretty good administrator. Uh I asked to be relieved as chairman because I was tired of that particular job of paper, shuffling enough of any one

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thing is enough. And then there are certain advantages in being a professor. Uh That's, that's the thing. I think being a, being a professor is the best job you can have in a university. Were you um before the uh well, during this period, say of the

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fall semester of 68 did you engage in any uh activities about the presidential selection? Uh uh Well, I was not on the Presidential selection committee. I submitted some names to the Presidential selection committee. No, some, well, some of the names that I submitted were submitted in

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collaboration with other faculty members that is we had got together a few of us and talked about certain people. And uh well, for example, Doctor Kobayashi in engineering and myself uh submitted the name of a man who was the dean of the graduate school at Princeton.

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Uh he's a biologist and I knew of him professionally and uh Kobayashi knew of him as an administrator and we were both impressed uh because uh the type of man that I think uh we felt that we needed was not only a man who could do

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these things I have talked about as an administrator, but a man who would also command respect of the academic community as a scholar. Uh This again, my friends in the humanities tell me is not also an area in which Doctor Masterson is particularly a shining light.

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Uh He's probably an adequate scholar but not particularly brilliant. Certainly not of the caliber of Kenneth pitcher. Mhm. You know, I, I had no, I had no prejudices about whether the man should be a scientist or an engineer or a man from one of the humanities

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areas. I have no prejudices about that, whatever. But if he's from the humanities, I want him to be a man of scholarly stature here. Again, I think this was an area in which I didn't from what I knew of it. Uh I didn't feel that uh

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masters have met the qualifications. What other names besides the dean of the graduate school at Yale? Uh did uh you seriously consider was that, was that Princeton Yale? Uh There were, there were some other names that we submitted, the one man who is the vice president

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of one of the State University of New York campuses, a man who is president of Antioch College named Dixon. Um let's see, a man who is a professor of physics at Caltech that, uh Donald Clayton and several people in space science and myself are endorsed to

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the committee. Will Willie Fowler is his name. Uh, let's see, those are the ones I can think of. There were, there were at least seven or eight people whose names that uh I was involved with submitting. Were these men? Uh How would, how would these men

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compare, say in your mind with, uh, with Kenneth Fitzer? Were they right up there in caliber or were they about what rice good this time or how Willie Fowler uh is a member of the National Academy of Sciences. The man I mentioned first is the dean

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of the graduate school at Princeton and a man named Colin Pitt Andri uh is a member of the National Academy. Um I mean, these are men of really substantial scholarly reputation and I think a couple of them at least had administrative background as well. Dixon has

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been president of Antioch has been also Assistant Secretary of Health Education and Welfare. Uh He has both a phd and an MD degree. He has had a very broad experience in terms of student uh problems and uh as a as a proven administrator of great quality,

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high quality, like he would be a very strong Yeah, I mean, I think these were men, these names were men that were men of real stature. And I think the committee uh I, I have, I have an understanding although it's not an official understanding that Masterson

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was not in the top of this list that he was not among certain, the five names that they had sent as suggested types to the board. And, uh, Masterson, if they had a list of, say, 50 or 60 names, in my opinion, would have been close

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to the bottom if he was in the list. I don't know that he was in the list. Do you, uh did you have any special reason for thinking that uh any of these might be available or were you sort of leaving that out of your calculations

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for the time being? Just, just we were thinking of names. Um And uh I, I didn't really know whether any of these was a possible exception of Willie Fowler. I think there was some reason to think that Fowler might be available. And uh Clayton and I

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had talked to him socially about it a little bit, you know, to see whether or not how he'd feel about our submitting his name and he wasn't unenthusiastic. Uh which led us to believe that, you know, he might be available. Uh Pitt DRG. Uh I didn't

00:27:59.640 - 00:28:12.219

have a chance to talk to him before his name was submitted. Uh He didn't say that he wasn't interested after I told him we had, I told him we had submitted his name to a committee that was looking at a lot of names and he uh

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he didn't give a negative reaction. So I think there was a possibility that he might be available at Princeton. So they, uh I think the, the committee had available to it. A large number of names, uh men of a, of a proven ability, uh as administrators,

00:28:37.680 - 00:28:56.290

uh high uh abilities as scholars, uh men who would uh bring the qualities to the job that, uh that I think we need in a president. Did you, uh did you hear of any names that uh other people who were submitting names to the committee uh

00:28:56.300 - 00:29:10.069

were uh talking about? Uh yeah, some of these were, of course, a lot of names that I submitted that people that I didn't know or had never heard of. I heard of one name that was sent in which I was shocked about it. That was the

00:29:10.239 - 00:29:28.050

man who is the president of the university. What is the name of it? It's a school in Plano Texas. Uh I think it's called the University of Plano or something, you know, uh which is uh out here on the boondocks. And uh the president of Plano

00:29:28.060 - 00:29:46.390

Texas was the counsel to the assistant counsel to the Senate Internal Security Committee, which was his main claim to fame. He was a, a witch hunter at the time that uh Senator mccarthy was in his heyday. Well, this wouldn't recommend him to me uh as material

00:29:46.400 - 00:30:08.109

for a university presidency of not this place. And the University of Plano is not an institution of uh a caliber which would recommend it to me as, as a place of scholarly rigor and intellectual attainment. But that's the only one I heard of. Uh And that

00:30:08.119 - 00:30:28.160

was submitted by a member of the, one of the humanities departments who has that type of mind. Were there any other humanists or is that uh that you heard about that might have deserved serious consideration? Uh No, I know some were turned in but I don't

00:30:28.170 - 00:30:43.500

know any specific names, you know, and I have some of my colleagues in the, in the humanities uh who told me they had submitted names. I would have uh a high order of confidence that they would submit the same types of names that uh that I

00:30:43.510 - 00:31:03.479

would, you know, in the, in these general terms. And as I said, I had no prejudice about it, but my own acquaintance is much more heavily in the sciences than it is in the humanities areas. Do you recall what uh how you got the news uh

00:31:03.489 - 00:31:20.030

or first heard the rumor that the board had acted and not only acted but had selected the masses? Yeah, I think I heard it around uh 10 o'clock in the morning on the Friday morning. Apparently it was announced the night before or became known the night

00:31:20.040 - 00:31:38.420

before, but I didn't hear of it. And uh I think I heard it at Sammy's uh and over in the coffee shop about 10 o'clock in the morning when, uh, one of the, uh, junior members of the English Department came rushing over and asked me if

00:31:38.430 - 00:31:53.900

I knew whether or not there was any truth to the rumor. And I was horrified at the rumor because I hadn't heard it before. And I, I think I responded by saying it isn't possible. You, that's the silliest rumor I've heard of, you know, it, I

00:31:53.910 - 00:32:12.589

also had heard that uh Lyndon Johnson was going to be the next president of the university. And there's more likelihood of that than there would be for master. That was the type of response I think I gave. Then, of course, I heard it repetitively between uh

00:32:12.599 - 00:32:35.719

that time in about one in the afternoon. And uh then I heard that uh this was from some senior members of the faculty that this was indeed true and that a petition was being prepared to ask the trustees to rescind their, their decision. And uh so

00:32:35.729 - 00:32:58.609

by telephone, I discovered who was making up the petition and expressed my desire to sign it and if necessary help circulate it because I felt very strongly about about this uh before the faculty meeting ever occurred. The, the faculty meeting itself was one of the best

00:32:58.619 - 00:33:17.510

attended faculty meetings we've ever had in the institution. Of course. And I think the only people who weren't, there were faculty members who happened to be out of town at the time. This is the one that convened around four o'clock. Yes, that's right. So, between, between

00:33:17.520 - 00:33:37.479

10 and, and four o'clock, well, around one o'clock, uh, you say you began to take the rumors serious the petition, uh, the petition, I think they, they didn't get the petition, uh, prepared until after 230. That's, yeah, it was quite late and, you know, and I

00:33:37.489 - 00:34:02.020

didn't see it until after three and then I took it around in the, in my own department and got uh two or three more signatures on it. The uh did you speak at the um at the faculty meeting? Um I spoke briefly in, in uh opposition

00:34:02.030 - 00:34:21.929

primarily to Professor Dessler uh of the Space Science department uh who adopted the position that uh well, it was a fait accompli that uh yes, it might not be uh the best way to do things, but it was a fait accompli and we might as well

00:34:21.939 - 00:34:36.500

make the best of it. Well, I saw no reason to make the best of it. This was a man that we would have to live with. And uh if the trustees had made a mistake. And as a matter of fact, Mr Allen, of course, told the

00:34:36.510 - 00:34:50.698

faculty in this faculty meeting that yes, maybe the trustees had made a mistake in the way they had done it, but uh fellows, uh we've done it. And so I'll ask to ask you to just make the best of it and Dessler, uh, got up and

00:34:50.708 - 00:35:13.409

made essentially the same, you know, used the same approach and, uh, I got up and spoke briefly against that view and for the, the adoption of the resolution that was contained in the petition, which was essentially to ask the board of trustees to rescind their decision

00:35:13.419 - 00:35:34.899

to, to take it back. But what point did you, did you make in this, uh, in this talk? Well, as I, as I recall my remarks, they were directed to the fact that because a mistake has been made is not a reason to continue to live

00:35:34.909 - 00:35:58.750

with the mistake if it can be corrected and that there would undoubtedly be some embarrassment. Uh There would undoubtedly be some loss of face and perhaps some difficulty in rescinding the decision. But uh the the penalties which the university might pay uh in other kinds of

00:35:58.760 - 00:36:21.459

losses if the decision stood far outweighed the significance of the loss of face and uh that the trustees should, should uh reconsider on the basis of how the faculty felt with this uh appointment. It was uh something the faculty had to live with every day and

00:36:21.469 - 00:36:40.620

the trustees had to live with occasionally. And uh that because of this, that the faculty opposition to the thing was the only course that was left open to us and uh that I would not be able to co-operate with this man uh feeling as I did

00:36:40.629 - 00:36:58.229

about him as a as a scholar and as an administrator and that I, I felt that it would be an enormous mistake for the long, in the long run for the university. I didn't talk very long when you say uh the cost to the university of

00:36:58.239 - 00:37:17.600

keeping the uh the decision of the trustees. Uh uh Did you make it explicit, what kind of cost you cost in the loss of, of uh faculty members who are already here? The cost in trying to recruit uh new uh men on the faculty of high

00:37:17.610 - 00:37:40.689

quality uh the cost uh in terms of the loss of understanding between administration and faculty uh in implementing educational policy, the loss to the students of having an administration, which was not likely to be as responsive to their needs as it was responsive to the needs

00:37:40.699 - 00:37:57.179

of the boards of trustees. Well, that's, that's a considerable cost. Yes. Yeah. Yes, I thought it would be fatal. Did you feel like that may be overstating it a little bit? Did you feel like your uh your, your points got uh uh were we were well

00:37:57.189 - 00:38:18.899

received? Oh, I think so. Yes, I think it became obvious rather quickly that faculty feeling was quite strong uh on this. And uh I remember Dessler and con and uh perhaps one other person really got up and spoke in favor of this view that, you know,

00:38:18.909 - 00:38:36.560

it's a fait accompli. So let it stand and uh many more people got up and objected that people who people who objected, however wanted to split the resolution. So there was, there was mixed feeling about that. There were some people who wanted to split the resolution.

00:38:36.570 - 00:38:52.610

It was in two parts. The first part dealt with the fact that the faculty essentially deplored, you know, the action. And the second part dealt with the uh essentially the demand that they rescind the decision, right? And uh so those, those two items were voted on

00:38:52.620 - 00:39:16.199

separately. We did, we did vote then finally to split them. Do you recall what that vote was? It was, well, it was quite high, uh, on the basis of the first part, they didn't count the vote as I recall. It was, yes, it was, it was

00:39:16.209 - 00:39:35.540

a massive vote and there were no more than half a dozen hands that voted against adopting the first part. The second part, it seems to me the vote was 90 7 to 51 or some number like that. It was almost 2 to 1. Is it, is

00:39:35.550 - 00:40:17.070

it your recollection that the figure that was reported in the, um, in the threshold was correct? It's, I'm gonna take advantage of a little break here and, uh, change this tape testing, testing, testing, testing 54321, testing, testing at the sound of the word.

00:40:17.080 - 00:40:46.080

Now, set the, um, dial two at the sound of the word. Now that the dial 20543210. Now, this is ta eight continuation of the interview with uh Doctor Clark Reed, May 28th, 1969 time is now 215. Good. You know, dude, I think that uh that ought

00:40:46.090 - 00:41:03.800

identify the situation for our kind of him. Um We just uh talking about the vote at the faculty uh meeting being uh correct. Put in the uh in a, it was correct. I'm not as positive about those numbers, but the, the, the thresh account of the

00:41:03.810 - 00:41:20.939

numbers was, was correct. I remember that kind of stands out in your mind at that particular faculty meeting. Any other speeches that were made of positions that the individuals took? Well, there were a lot of strong statements and uh I was impressed, for example, with uh

00:41:21.590 - 00:41:40.540

the position of professor Brock uh Broughton uh had been uh dean of engineering and uh had been uh had gotten out of that position a year or so before, when he went on leave of absence at his own wish and come back as a professor. And

00:41:40.550 - 00:42:00.340

uh when the, when the committee to assist in the selection of a president was uh was selected, uh Bronson was elected and was chairman of this committee. Now, it would have been easy for Bratton to, to take an administrative uh viewpoint uh on this. And uh

00:42:00.350 - 00:42:22.010

he was questioned by the faculty at this faculty meeting quite closely about uh the events that had occurred. And uh how this had been handled in relation to that committee. And Roman gave a very straightforward, analytical and honest uh set of statements on this. You didn't

00:42:22.020 - 00:42:39.040

pull any punches. And this was with uh I met two members of the board of trustees sitting on the platform was not an easy thing to do and which I happen to know he for which he's been criticized since that time by members of the board

00:42:39.050 - 00:42:55.000

of trustees, they consider him as a disloyal to the trustees or something. Uh Because of this honesty, I admired his honesty because he told the faculty what they needed to know. And he didn't, he didn't attempt to soften any blows. He was not offensive in any

00:42:55.010 - 00:43:17.100

way, but uh told the truth. And uh that was uh that was very impressive. The fact is, of course, Bronson has enormous stature with this faculty uh as a person. Uh It was only two years ago, I think that, that he was approached by a group

00:43:17.110 - 00:43:31.169

of people in the humanities who ask him that when he quit being Dean of Engineering, would you agree to be dean of the humanities? Which is quite an exceptional compliment for him? I think it is. Um, Bratton was of the stature that could have been president

00:43:31.179 - 00:43:56.080

of the institution. I look, and as I say, in that meeting, Broughton's uh reactions, uh ST stand out in my mind as being uh quite important, I think in uh solidifying the feelings of the faculty. What uh could, could you point to any particular information that

00:43:56.090 - 00:44:15.540

it is the faculty that was especially weighty? Uh Was it the uh the lack of liaison between? Well, he described, he described the uh numbers of meetings that the committee had, had the work the committee had done in terms of trying to select or get together

00:44:15.550 - 00:44:35.560

a list of possible candidates and then to rank, order these people to decide, you know, who looked like the very best and rank order, the 1234 and so forth. Uh, then, uh, he pointed out the fact that the two, meetings, uh, scheduled with, uh, a committee

00:44:35.570 - 00:44:51.909

of the board of trustees had been canceled and, uh, in one case, uh, Mr Allen was ill or something. In another case, Mr Lovett was ill or something. And at any rate that, uh, that the board committee had never gotten together with him at all. Uh,

00:44:51.919 - 00:45:16.739

then he, uh, pointed out that, uh, they had finally in desperation sent a list of five names to the trustee committee. Uh, not as, not as a nominee, but to, uh, indicate to the board, the kind of men that they were considering or purposes of recommendation.

00:45:17.350 - 00:45:37.439

Uh, these, these names were sent up with a large amount of information on each man which they had gathered as to the quality of the man and moving on and so forth. And, uh, then the uh board informed them uh orally or Mr Lovett did that.

00:45:37.449 - 00:45:52.449

Uh they appreciated the work and so on. But that the board had now selected the president and that they had already taken care of this. They thank the committee very much for their uh for their efforts. But that the the board had uh already solved the

00:45:52.459 - 00:46:16.429

problem and informed of uh doctor Broughton of the, of the name selected Robson was horrified according to what he said, privately, he did not say that in the faculty meeting but surprised, I think was the term he used that the board had asked the faculty to

00:46:17.239 - 00:46:39.229

uh select a committee uh to aid in, in selecting a president, but then had proceeded to operate in a totally uh unilateral fashion. And that uh the committee therefore felt that they were as of this point, dissolved uh having worked for several months for nothing. And

00:46:39.239 - 00:46:55.530

uh I believe he sat down at that point, he, he was then asked a number of questions by individual faculty members. Did the committee do so? And so uh did the committee do this, did the committee do that? Uh He answered these questions in a perfectly

00:46:55.540 - 00:47:15.340

honest and frank uh manner uh without violating what I call the confidence in terms of who people were that they might be considering. He didn't, he didn't read out any names of possible candidates which would have been quite improper. I uh because it could have embarrassed

00:47:15.350 - 00:47:40.479

somewhat but uh brought in, uh I think laid out uh quite systematically to the faculty exactly what had occurred. And Mr Allen, uh essentially confirmed this, the sound of the trustees of the things that he said, uh what did he say that, that you uh would

00:47:40.489 - 00:48:04.100

think the trustee was supposed to get to? He said earlier that he'd been criticized for his uh statement, he was criticized. Uh I know he's been criticized by Mr Levitt. Uh Mr Lovett made a remark to Broughton. No, that uh he had been disloyal during the

00:48:04.510 - 00:48:27.040

Masterson, which I think uh bothered Frans Broen a bit. Uh He uh he was somewhat uh wry about it when he told me about it, but uh I think it bothered him uh because it showed a total lack of understanding and it was quite unfair, of

00:48:27.050 - 00:48:48.100

course, because unless you love, it wasn't present during this period, he was in the hospital and uh I don't know what the basis for that sort of feeling is other than a straight feeling from the board that if you don't agree with their decisions, you're disloyal.

00:48:48.110 - 00:49:10.889

I think there is some element of that, particularly with Mr Lovett. Of course, he speaks of the university of my daddy's university, you know, I'm sure did uh did the question come up or anyone uh ask the doctor about anything about the different criteria that the

00:49:11.100 - 00:49:30.219

committee is going to be using uh different from what the trustees were using. Well, he outlined the criteria that the that the faculty student committee had used. Uh that is qualities as an administrator, qualities as a scholar, uh how these qualities would fit into the rice

00:49:30.229 - 00:49:51.139

university environment and uh and help us in terms of uh uh continuing development under under the 10 year plan for the development of the university, uh the projections for the future which uh are are well alone at this point. And uh I think, you know, I

00:49:51.149 - 00:50:05.750

think he gave her an outline of the kinds of things they were looking for in a, in a man. And I think they were things that the faculty would uh you know, generally go along with and Doctor Allen made the announcement in front of the committee.

00:50:05.760 - 00:50:30.050

Uh Well, maybe I'm assuming something here. Um How was the announcement made at the faculty meeting? Uh The announcement was made by uh Chancellor Krohe introducing Mr Allen on the board of trustees. And uh Mr Allen said, started off by saying, you know, I assume now

00:50:30.060 - 00:50:51.510

by now you've all heard that uh we have selected the new president and he gave a little talk about this and how happy they were about it. And so what sports and so on and then uh then the uh question immediately came up from the floor,

00:50:52.510 - 00:51:16.060

uh how did uh the board arrive at this decision? And uh Mr Allen, as I recall said, Well, we uh we talked about it and then the board voted unanimously to select Doctor Masters. Then the question is asked was the faculty uh student committee for selection

00:51:16.070 - 00:51:34.699

of the president consulted in this. And he said, no, they weren't consulted. Then the question was directed to Doctor Bracken. And Mr Allen said, well, if you don't mind, then I'll sit down and he sat down chance of con I then took the, the uh gavel

00:51:34.709 - 00:51:50.290

again and uh ro and then arose from the, on the floor and answered these questions, spoke about the role of the committee and uh answered questions from the faculty on what had happened. Hey, Doctor Allen, maybe not to say anything about the boy's desire to get

00:51:50.300 - 00:52:07.520

AAA an alumni. Uh He an alumnus, he made the remark to the effect that, that uh they wanted a local man. And they also were anxious to have a man who would have good relations with the community. He seemed to be, they seem to worry about

00:52:07.530 - 00:52:26.050

that whatever that means. I think he's thinking about the community outside the university. He's not talking about the university community. Uh That, that was, that was emphasized, they wanted, they started looking around and then he said, uh we found we didn't have to look very far.

00:52:26.060 - 00:52:44.610

We had one of our own people who would be a good man. That's because I remember the way you put it one of our own people. Mhm of course, uh, that didn't go over too well. Uh, that didn't help the position of the trustees on this

00:52:44.620 - 00:53:01.100

because, uh, that, that's not a valid criterion for selecting a president to get someone who has to be a, uh, in Texas. He's a local boy. Well, I imagine that the, the, the differences in point of view must have been quite striking between what Robson said

00:53:01.110 - 00:53:20.250

and what Alan said that they were looking for. And of course, they, uh the trustees had never given the committee, uh any guidelines of that sort uh to be used in selecting candidates for a president. As a matter of fact, if they had given them those

00:53:20.260 - 00:53:40.120

guidelines, they might have uh argued with the trustees about it. Uh If they had accepted such guidelines, I think they wouldn't have, they wouldn't have selected this particular local boy. I think there are some other possibilities. I think they would have gone after someone like Maurice

00:53:40.129 - 00:54:03.770

Ewing who is uh uh head of uh the Osborne laboratories at Columbia University, but who is a local boy. Uh but a man of thatcher who, by the way may have been on the list they considered anyway, I don't know, Laurie, but there are rice products

00:54:03.780 - 00:54:19.949

and local boys and other places who uh would have been considered if that had been a criterion committee. And uh I read somewhere, I don't remember which right? Or, or what publication it was in, but I think your comments on it. Uh, I guess it was

00:54:19.959 - 00:54:36.909

made at some point that someone suspected that, uh perhaps, uh ma knew that it was with the understanding that he, you know, go to the college and get a little bit of it. I heard him, I heard that rumor. I didn't, I didn't give any credence

00:54:37.449 - 00:54:57.020

to this. The, uh, there are always, of course, the rumors of this kind that float around, uh all sorts of uh many atrocity stories. And uh no, I don't think any such understanding was uh formulated for several reasons. One, I don't think that they foresaw that

00:54:57.030 - 00:55:15.919

uh doctor pitcher wasn't gonna be here. I don't think that was uh any kind of foregone conclusion pitcher had given pitcher had turned down the presidency of MIT two years before, uh which is not an inconsiderable job. And uh I think it came as a great

00:55:15.929 - 00:55:34.989

shock when he checked his form as President Stanford, even to the trustees. I know that on the first of July, they didn't know that he was going to Stanford that, that late, that late. Well, of course, of course, Stanford is uh well out of university, the

00:55:35.159 - 00:55:59.780

alumnus of Stanford and he, yes, he owns a home in Palo Alto. He did while he was president here, uh his son uh graduated out there and uh he's, and he has very strong, has very strong regional uh allegiance to Northern California. And I think that

00:55:59.790 - 00:56:16.729

had something to do with him. He admires Stanford and Stanford is more like rice and mit is like rice. Uh There are some differences, it's a much more elaborate institution. But uh I think that uh another element that became involved in it was the difficulties that

00:56:16.739 - 00:56:35.919

pitcher had with the with the reconstituted board of trustees. After Mr Brown stepped out as chairman of the board, the board really changed. That was a very important change. And uh it was perhaps bad that Mr Mr Brown and, and then like Newton Razor, uh went

00:56:35.929 - 00:56:54.719

off the board uh at almost the same time. And uh these were men of uh considerable vision who also understood that there are areas in which the board of trustees shouldn't mess around that uh that the president had to work these problems out with the faculty.

00:56:54.729 - 00:57:10.830

And uh they didn't, they didn't put their fingers in. Uh Mr Lovett puts his fingers in, he put his fingers in now because the dean of students on the phone tells him to crack down on the students uh in a direct fashion. Well, we that sort

00:57:10.840 - 00:57:29.610

of thing, I think also had a lot to do with pitcher's decision. The board had become more difficult to work with. Also a P told me one time that uh the university administrator comes into, into his job and he has, he has a bucket of goodwill

00:57:29.620 - 00:57:48.550

which he's carrying. And as he's there, he ladles out of the bucket and after a period of time, the bucket gets nearly empty and when it's empty, you better move somewhere else. And I think he felt that his bucket was, was mighty low. Well, that's about

00:57:48.560 - 00:58:08.409

as, as after next description, as I've heard of that, that experience the faculty, the faculty meeting though, I think uh uh it was harder to remember than some of the things that happened later because of uh everything else that happened on the weekend was sort of

00:58:08.419 - 00:58:26.750

a consequence of what happened in the family, the vote of the family. And uh it was amazing to come out of the faculty meeting and see this large group of students standing outside cheering, which was the first time problem with the students and cheered the faculty

00:58:26.760 - 00:58:46.669

in years. Yeah, that was his pride. That was a surprise. A matter of fact, when the vote was taken, we could hear the students cheering outside and when the results uh percolated out the back door, that must have been someone inside. Yeah, I think so. I

00:58:46.679 - 00:59:06.239

think that sort of sets a tone for the weekend. Uh because uh the uh faculty felt that the at least at least a large number of the students were uh were with them. And uh many of the students, of course, didn't uh didn't know Masterson uh

00:59:06.270 - 00:59:26.689

didn't know much about him. And uh there was a certain expression of confidence here on from the students. The faculty was, was, uh, behaving properly. Did you attend any of the, uh, college meetings that night? That was sort of, uh, quickly, uh, called together. No, I

00:59:26.699 - 00:59:41.669

was over on the radio a good part of the evening. That's right. That was that night that, uh, on Friday night we had a panel discussion over there. I guess you'd call it a panel discussion. It went on for quite a long time that, uh, that

00:59:41.679 - 00:59:59.159

radio station was fantastic. See, I only live two blocks off the campus and so the radio station, uh I could hear it quite easily at home on the radio and, uh, weird things would happen on the weekend. You know, because, uh, suddenly they'd be playing music

00:59:59.169 - 01:00:21.360

or something and someone would, uh announce, uh, uh, Doctor Reed. Would you come over to the student center? That's right. You get someone, someone because I knew I had the radio on, well, there were several of us that were over there that night. Donald Clayton and

01:00:23.239 - 01:00:52.379

myself, Alan Grove was there for a while from the English Department trying to review I think what we did was to review, uh, the reasons that, uh Mattsson seems unacceptable. Um, you know, to each of us, uh, the reasons were not identical and uh also to

01:00:52.389 - 01:01:12.389

discuss the significance of the mode of selection in terms of its propriety from the standpoint of uh, faculty and students. Uh I think we tried to describe the fact that the faculty had made, had first been asked to form a committee and then we had insisted

01:01:12.399 - 01:01:39.989

on adding student members uh to the committee so that uh that the students would have at least uh some, some representation and some feeling of participation in selecting the executive of the university. And uh we carried on a dialogue really is what we did interrupted occasionally

01:01:40.000 - 01:02:00.729

by Beatle Records. Well, then Saturday was the day of the, um the 10 o'clock meeting in the gym. Uh I tell you that didn't, I spoke that I was one of the speakers as a matter of fact, uh I think I introduced 22 phrases that stayed

01:02:00.739 - 01:02:18.169

on and were used uh uh quite a bit uh on the next two or three days. Uh One was the term uh due process. Uh a, a term which I'm very familiar with and use all the time because I'm chairman of the American Civil Liberties Union.

01:02:19.120 - 01:02:40.239

And uh this seems to me to be a, a beautiful case of the violation of what is constitutionally termed due process. And uh and the other one was a phrase that uh I think we posed the question that rice was rice uh destined to remain forever

01:02:40.689 - 01:03:07.179

poised on the threshold of greatness or something like that. That was well worth the seeing. And uh that, that, uh that meeting on Saturday morning was uh very well attended by both students and family. And uh I think the vote there was, uh primarily it was

01:03:07.189 - 01:03:24.139

a vote of the Student Association itself and I think the total vote was around 1000 voting people. Something on that order committee of the whole. Yeah, that's right. Uh The faculty who were there did not vote. That was strictly a student vote. And it was a

01:03:24.149 - 01:03:45.209

student vote to support the faculty resolution. And the vote was 900 something to some very small number 20 or 50 or something like that. And then there was the march over to the, then we marched uh in an orderly fashion uh up the street and out

01:03:45.219 - 01:04:02.080

on the other side of le Hall. And uh some of us had bullhorns and carried on dialogues out there, Doctor Grove and I had a dialogue out there for a while. I'd be interested in what went on there. Uh It's that, that's been been hard to

01:04:02.090 - 01:04:17.540

get at. Uh uh There were a lot of impressions about people milling around, I guess. And then, yeah, and the group, uh the groups changed, people would move from one group to another. I think there were sets of these dialogues going on on the grass in

01:04:17.550 - 01:04:41.330

different places and uh Grove and I, I think got what amounted to a dialogue going. We weren't making speeches. Um We, we were trying to compare uh one thing we tried to compare was the rise with other institutions and why the needs here for a president

01:04:41.340 - 01:04:59.669

were different than we are in some other kinds of places. Uh why uh the students feelings were as important as the feelings of the faculty in terms of the fate of this institution. Also the we, we had, we had some people who started shouting strikes. Uh

01:04:59.679 - 01:05:25.699

We uh carried on a dialogue on the stupidity of a strike uh that we had not given the administration's sufficient time to mull these things over uh that we should use restraint patients. Uh but we should keep the pressure on them. And uh this, I think

01:05:25.709 - 01:05:45.800

the, the dialogue groan I carried on was pretty much along this line. Then, uh Doctor Deb Breacher from the geology department got the microphone and he was one of the strong persons who uh favored the strike idea, uh which I still feel would have been stupid

01:05:46.689 - 01:06:05.370

and, and then looking back on it clearly, it was, it wouldn't have helped. We wouldn't have gotten the problem solved as I think, as quickly as we did and it could live with some other things that might have been unpleasant and unnecessary. Well, I have then

01:06:05.379 - 01:06:23.520

proceeded to have an argument, passing the bullhorn back and forth with the beer on this, on this idea of a strike. And that went on for another 15 to 20 minutes, I guess what? You propose a walkout of cla on some classes, you know, professors refuse

01:06:23.530 - 01:06:38.709

to teach and the students refuse to learn and this sort of stuff. And my point is this is a university. We're not talking about a steel mill. This is a university. When you close down the classes, then you've, you've closed down the university, you're not talking

01:06:38.719 - 01:06:58.229

anymore in terms of an establishment of, of the mind. And my, I contended that the, that the only form of strike that would be acceptable and would be one in which you talked about the problem uh in, in classes, you analyze the problem and you ask

01:06:58.239 - 01:07:16.350

questions, you know, what's the university for, uh what is the aim of the university? And what's the aim of this particular university? And what are the problems of this university from the standpoint of uh individuals? Um, are we doing anything to actually make people go or

01:07:16.360 - 01:07:29.389

they just come here and they're already good and they do very well because they're good and they go away and they haven't been touched. We have students like that, of course. And uh this thing to me, you wanna kind of strike if you wanna call it

01:07:29.399 - 01:07:49.629

that, that would be uh acceptable to people who were presumably dedicated to the life of the mind. The, the faculty weren't dedicated to the last of the, of the mind and they probably didn't bomb here. Well, what the benefit is, we actually we part to that.

01:07:51.260 - 01:08:06.590

Oh, yeah, I think his argument with that was that, you know what I was talking in terms of a theory, uh that, uh this was not, this was the case in which you had to be hard nosed and rough with the trustees or they wouldn't know

01:08:06.600 - 01:08:23.220

what you were talking about. And I contended that it wasn't important as to whether they knew what we were talking about because I didn't think we were going to re educate trustees over the weekend, uh, or even over the next month that, uh the trustees were

01:08:23.229 - 01:08:42.910

like the students, they don't stay forever on the board of trustees and they rotate early and uh they retire and uh they come and go. But that we were, we were talking here about, not necessarily, they're understanding that, but, and they're realizing that they simply had

01:08:42.919 - 01:09:02.819

to walk on eggs as trustees that they had to respect the institution. Whether they like, whether they understood or liked the institution is immaterial. If you look at an analysis of the makeup of boards of trustees and colleges and universities, you find that they tend to

01:09:02.830 - 01:09:26.370

fit up a certain pattern anyway. They're uh almost invariably republican. They're almost invariably wealthy. Uh, they're almost invariably men past the age of 60. Uh Well, this uh this creates a homogeneity of, uh, of a, a worldview uh that uh is going to be different from

01:09:26.419 - 01:09:39.279

that of the faculty. And I, I hope that the trustees learn something from being on boards of trustees. But I don't think we, we, we re educate them in terms of the way they look at the things in general and they don't live a life of

01:09:39.290 - 01:09:55.740

the mind. That's not their job. They don't live for the intellect. They live for something else and they just have to serve four hours a month on the board of trustees. It isn't a career. It's a hobby. So, the way a strike to me was out

01:09:55.750 - 01:10:16.569

of the question, it was ridiculous. It would be the one thing that they would only understand in times of uh uh that would be unacceptable to us. They, a strike would be understood by them as rebellion, uh revolution that must be handled. And if it, if

01:10:16.580 - 01:10:36.970

things got out of hand, it would be handled ultimately by the police, uh that I thought was playing with fire. Now, the r students were not, were not very easily lead to the idea of a strike. Anyway, they're a highly intelligent group of people. And when

01:10:36.979 - 01:10:54.640

uh you get down to the facts, they uh are not prone to be pushed into hasty uh ill considered action service. And there are a few of them that are, I'll tell you about that in a minute. On Sunday, I went to the SDF meeting. You

01:10:54.680 - 01:11:11.370

got into a debate about a strike. And because there are a few of these people that uh on the strike, uh Warren Scarum who was president of the Student Association had a result of this meeting. He I spoke against the strike and then Scarum got up

01:11:11.379 - 01:11:32.759

and said, uh, now I don't, I don't believe in violence but he said I'll personally take on anybody that wants to start a strike, which was a somewhat more direct approach. Well, I think it's only, it's, it's ok to break to chronology. And, and what about

01:11:32.770 - 01:11:47.750

this SDS meeting? That the, the, the topic of strike, you know, the sds of course meets on has met on Sunday afternoon at two o'clock regularly. Uh, once in a while during the year, I've gone to one of their meetings more out of curiosity than anything

01:11:47.759 - 01:12:05.819

else. Uh, because, uh, there, there's perhaps a hard core of less than 10 SDS members on this campus. And by this, I mean, the ones who actually belong to the students for a democratic society, then there are a few hangers on that, you know, occasional, but

01:12:05.830 - 01:12:24.560

I always, uh, sort of enjoy listening to them because they talk in slogans. Uh, well, some of it is Marxist dialectic without I think a very deep understanding of what it means. And, uh, I was interested to see how they were gonna react to this because,

01:12:24.569 - 01:12:40.540

and a lot of other students were, and they had announced this meeting and the attendance at the meeting was surprising there were perhaps 100 people there, uh, many of whom of course were not in the F DS, but they were looking for action and, uh, So

01:12:40.549 - 01:13:02.290

they, there were a variety of things debated at the SDS, uh conclave, uh, ideas of another demonstration, uh, a strike, uh, you know, various alternatives of this sort. There was no suggestion in that meeting of anything that I would say could be construed as violence. But,

01:13:02.299 - 01:13:18.279

uh, and the number of people who actually espoused the strike in the SD DS meeting was probably no more than half a dozen when it came down to it. And the SDS doesn't vote on things. You know, they have sort of a consensus method of approaching

01:13:18.290 - 01:13:34.970

and after they shout at each other a while, then people begin to see who, who has the most uh voice on which side of the question and they never resolve the question. They sort of end the meeting by sort of dissolving and uh then everyone goes

01:13:34.979 - 01:13:57.979

away without there ever having been any formal action taken on anything. It's a, yeah, it's a very loose uh type of arrangement to make for decision making and the poor one for decision. But that those two times were the only times that I was seriously involved

01:13:57.990 - 01:14:18.009

in opposing the idea of a, of a strike out on the grass on Saturday morning, Saturday at noon, I guess it was by that time. And uh then the following on, on Sunday afternoon, the SDS were the proposals that were made at the SDS. They, they

01:14:18.020 - 01:14:37.720

somewhat go along the lines that the book had suggested just whole, uh, just everybody off the campus. That's right. Yeah, pretty much. Uh, I think they wanted to accompany it with a demonstration of some kind which was never defined. Uh, the word demonstration was used, uh,

01:14:37.729 - 01:14:59.950

one suggestion was, which was hooted down but, you know, we should occupy a building. Uh, but this was a, this was hooted down instantly, you know, and, uh, was not taken seriously at all to go back to the, the, uh Saturday morning. After this, of course,

01:14:59.959 - 01:15:25.839

Doctor Masterson appeared on the scene and uh was handed the bullhorn and I was in, I was absolutely astonished at his approach to the stems. He uh threw the bullhorn, everyone gathered around and he started by saying, uh, well, I'm so glad to be here, see

01:15:25.850 - 01:15:46.359

all of you people out here this morning. And, uh, and he looked as though he didn't understand what was going on out there. Now, I know that he must have understood what was going on out there. You know, I can't believe that he didn't, that I

01:15:46.370 - 01:16:05.189

can't believe that, uh someone hadn't told him what was going on out there that all this mass of people marching up the street out there were not here to welcome him as a visiting dignitary. This was the approach he used. And uh then, um, a student,

01:16:05.200 - 01:16:26.240

this was an unfortunate thing. I think the student shouted an obscenity at that point. Uh But he was looked upon with such uh, gross disapproval by the entire crowd that he subsided and never made another sound again. Masterson then went on, uh, was asked some questions

01:16:26.250 - 01:16:46.180

from the crowd, asked whether he was willing to resign and back off from this. And he said, no, he wasn't. He understood that there might have been a, a mistake made and, and an unfortunate, how was it, how was the term or that there, that there

01:16:46.189 - 01:17:05.990

might have been some unfortunate misunderstandings, uh selection procedure, but that he knew these were just misunderstanding and he had no intention of backing away from this, that uh he had been appointed president of this university and that he was going to serve as president of this

01:17:06.000 - 01:17:26.250

university. Of course, this didn't go over very well with the crowd. Uh But I think in general he was treated with uh if not respect, uh at least general courtesy. No one, no one really insulted him. They asked him questions and he attempted to answer them,

01:17:26.259 - 01:17:48.500

uh knowing him, uh reasonably well, I can begin to see the symptoms of, of his discomfort to her. And uh he finally just turned and walked away and uh we didn't see him anymore. Then the crowd, everyone, by that time it was getting past lunchtime. So

01:17:48.509 - 01:18:08.709

everyone just burst and, and uh went away. My wife had been over here with me for the, the march up the street and uh we went, we went home, the astonishing thing was that uh he was asked during this uh one of the questions directed to

01:18:08.720 - 01:18:28.810

him. So what would he meet with the faculty committee to discuss this? Mm And the committee for selecting the person. And he said, no, he had no intention of discussing this with, with anybody on the faculty. Uh Which uh again, I think many of us thought

01:18:28.819 - 01:18:53.069

this was foolish on his part guard everybody up. Yes, he later met with students, of course, uh that was a meeting that went on. I understand for many, many hours. And uh perhaps if you talk to scaring them, I had about 10 minutes, you would uh

01:18:53.879 - 01:19:13.470

no, this was a painful and long and drawn out experience. I think Barry Kaplan was also there. You might have talked to her uh again, when he was asked by the students, I was told that he refused to, to um discuss or I said he would

01:19:13.479 - 01:19:34.259

not discuss anything with faculty. Um But that he would, he would talk with the student committee. What this was, this was completely consistent with Masterson's character. I think he thought he would co opt the student leadership and split the student faculty coalition. And then he would

01:19:34.270 - 01:19:57.000

uh then he would handle the faculty. And if necessary, uh he could, he could apply uh forms of pressure to faculty. Certainly, it had been simple to apply uh discriminatory pressure to younger faculty members who do not have tenure or to apply, uh, economic sanctions against

01:19:57.009 - 01:20:18.129

more senior members by cutting off salary raises and, and taking away space and, uh, you know, things of this sort, which I think he would have been perfectly capable of doing, uh, after he had split off the students. But that didn't work. Um, he wasn't accustomed

01:20:18.140 - 01:20:40.979

to dealing with this type of student. He shouldn't have gone to Chattanooga. He'd forgotten what these, some of these rice students are like and he couldn't go up particularly scar up. And this young Mary Kaplan who was quite an exceptional young woman, uh, and these two

01:20:40.990 - 01:21:08.319

people scared and, and this camp are tough people. There are people who are, who have a great deal more integrity than Masterson. He's not in their class. And, uh, so that failed, that ploy failed. And, uh, the last I had heard on Saturday night was that

01:21:08.330 - 01:21:28.000

this was, uh, you know, still going on this meeting. The things were relatively quiet that Saturday night and, um, then the following morning I got up and came over on the campus when I was summoned on the student radio and, uh, talked a little bit on

01:21:28.009 - 01:22:00.319

the radio about the reviews, some things that had happened, then went to, uh, the new meal over in Hampton College with this new mail that the, uh, report of the student leader, uh, was read. Uh, yes. So they pronounce math unacceptable. That's unacceptable. And, uh, there

01:22:00.330 - 01:22:19.169

are a few talks made at that new meeting or, or no luncheon in, in Hampton College, uh, very brief, you know, talks, not very excited, sort of little progress report type things. I've heard this and I've heard that but, uh, it was relatively quiet and then

01:22:19.629 - 01:22:39.870

there was an announcement made that the SDS was holding their usual meeting at two o'clock and this meeting was going to be to be concerned with the, was it alternatives in the present crisis? So, after finishing the lunch, uh a couple of uh other faculty members

01:22:39.879 - 01:23:08.069

and I wandered over to the, the sds and uh I had to, I think I at that new meal over at Hampton College that I had um told the students that uh that I was proud of their behavior and uh that uh I was so impressed

01:23:08.080 - 01:23:30.859

with the, with students at this point that uh all a good, many of the students knew that I intended to leave rice and that I felt some, you know, reluctance to get very deeply involved in this uh presidential crisis, but uh that there, the general behavior

01:23:30.870 - 01:23:53.490

and that of the faculty had, had made me really begin to ask myself again and over again, did I really wanna leave this place? And uh somebody ran over and put that on the radio, which uh which I didn't expect. And then, um as I started

01:23:53.500 - 01:24:12.799

over to the SDS meeting, um a group of young, uh faculty members from my own department suddenly appeared on the scene and, and said they had been listening to the radio and they heard that I was considering not leaving the university and they wanted to rush

01:24:12.810 - 01:24:32.140

over to assure me that, uh, that, that would be the best thing that could happen, which made me feel very good. Indeed. What, uh, when you, when you made that statement at, uh, the hands and lunch, uh, uh, uh, how the size of the sputum, um,

01:24:33.450 - 01:24:52.120

oh, I got, they applauded vigorously, you know, they, they, uh, of course, at that time, I think they would have quoted anything that, uh, you know, that, that sounded good because people were very, very tense about everything and, uh, and no one had any answers as

01:24:52.129 - 01:25:05.560

to what was going to happen, whether the trustees were gonna back down or whether they were gonna try to go ahead and force this down our throats. So there was a great deal of tension. So I've heard it described as Nova and I suspect that your,

01:25:05.569 - 01:25:26.899

uh, that your description is a, is a little bit, uh, a little bit on the shy side. Well, they, uh, they have clouded somewhat warmly. Yeah. Yeah, I have good relationships with the students over there. I think, I, uh, I think that I have, I think

01:25:26.910 - 01:25:47.910

I have a pretty good reservoir of respect for student as a, as a human being, but probably not do it. For stuff and la it out, ladle it out like you do. If you're, if you're, uh, the president of North, if you, you unload it, fill

01:25:47.919 - 01:26:01.950

it up again after a real effort. Well, let's see, after the meeting, uh, then with the sds, I think they were, the general college meeting was that night. I was at that meeting. I didn't speak at that meeting because there were a lot of other people

01:26:01.959 - 01:26:20.569

who, who wanted to speak, who hadn't been speaking and I didn't really have much offer. I was, uh, I was a little put off by some of the speakers. At that point. It had become clear to anyone who knew what was going on. We've been in

01:26:20.580 - 01:26:43.169

contact with the students that we were not in danger of having any kind of violence. We weren't gonna have any strike. This had become obvious. Uh, but Doctor Norbe who were formerly Dean of Humanity got up and made what I thought was a ridiculous speech, uh,

01:26:44.109 - 01:27:03.359

exhorting the students at length to not to go on strike and exhorting them at length to not do anything violent and exhorting them not to do all sorts of things, which they weren't gonna do. And, uh, I thought this was bad. This is psychologically bad to

01:27:03.370 - 01:27:21.970

get up and exhort people not to do something. It's almost the same thing as exhorting them to do it. What he got it in, uh, uh, of, of what was going on. Uh, I, I don't know. Professor Khan told me, uh, later in the German Department

01:27:21.979 - 01:27:37.020

that he made a similar speech over in one of the other colleges and the reason he made it was because Norbeck had called him up and, and had told him that there was real danger that the students were gonna go on strike. Mhm. There, I, I

01:27:37.029 - 01:27:51.890

never saw any evidence of this. Did you see no back around on Saturday or no? I don't know whether he's here, Khan as a matter of fact, had not, he'd been gone for part of that weekend and didn't get back into the city until about six

01:27:51.899 - 01:28:04.830

o'clock on Sunday evening. So he really didn't know what I was doing. So when Norbeck told him that it was perfectly understandable that he was accepted to place value and I think he talked to Will Rice College along the same lines he told me and then

01:28:04.839 - 01:28:23.390

he was sorry that he did because then after he realized that this, you know, was inappropriate for, well, maybe we can check to find out whether he not that not, not got his information. So, yeah, I that was a curious phenomenon. Um There were the, the

01:28:23.399 - 01:28:44.569

speeches that were made by various faculty members so buried uh in intensity. The uh I su I suppose the man who spoke with the greatest passion with Alan Grobe, who the English Department who had already spoken uh with uh great effectiveness on two or three other

01:28:44.580 - 01:29:08.009

occasions with students. And uh then some of the student leaders spoke Warren SCN, the President of the Student Association, uh talked briefly about their experiences of the day before with Doctor Masterson and uh his uh his failure to respond uh to their uh uh request, I

01:29:08.020 - 01:29:30.259

guess is the word their, their demand. OK. You understood to be too well, ultimately, that that demand was made, Uh at first they, they had restricted their demand to the idea that he should meet with the, with the faculty group and discuss this. And then uh

01:29:30.270 - 01:29:48.520

then he refused, I think the faculty, was it the faculty advisory? I think they wanted him to meet with the faculty committee on selection of the president first with the possibility of meeting with perhaps uh uh other faculty groups after that, depending on, you know, what

01:29:48.529 - 01:30:07.259

kind of discussion might come out of it. They uh they ask uh the possibility of his resigning and uh being reconsidered by that committee, the understanding that you would be reconsidered, he said he would only do that if it was understood that uh that there would

01:30:07.270 - 01:30:29.160

be no other person selected, which of course, would have simply made it an exercise. And uh they're in futility and uh they found that unacceptable. Then their final conclusion was that he was not an acceptable person for the job on the basis of their experience and

01:30:29.169 - 01:30:47.310

their direct experiences with him as a student group. Did you, did you hear anyone suggest or did it occur to you that when Masterson, uh, left town to go back to Chattanooga on Sunday morning that, that he may have by that time realized, uh, the, the

01:30:47.319 - 01:30:59.009

serious situation that he was thinking that he would have to lose out on this thing is going back to see if it, I don't think the old position was. No, I don't think so. I think that he felt at that point that uh and there's some,

01:30:59.020 - 01:31:23.560

I think I've got some evidence for this that uh hm had not been involved in the selection of himself as president and that it was the trustee's responsibility to, to defend their selection. It wasn't his position or his responsibility to defend it, which I think is

01:31:23.569 - 01:31:52.839

probably got some merit at that stage of the game. I thought of that. But, and then the, he felt that maybe the, maybe the trustees would apply pressure and do what was necessary to ratify the election if that's what was necessary with the faculty. Mhm. You

01:31:52.919 - 01:32:15.879

think it ultimately making change tonight? No, I think that the uh there were men who were in favor of matches. Mhm. Uh I understand, for example, with Doctor Castaneda, who was uh one of uh Masterson's uh enthusiastic supporters by Monday, had reached the conclusion that this

01:32:15.890 - 01:32:32.790

position was untenable and uh I've been told that he called him on the telephone and told him that, you know, that your position here, uh, is simply not one that's possible to assume. And, and I would advise you as a friend to, to, you know, back

01:32:32.799 - 01:32:50.490

out of it if you can and see whether you can arrange to stay in Chattanooga. But it won't work. You come here, it won't work. And I know that a number of men who favored Masterson's appointment began to feel that by Sunday night and more of

01:32:50.500 - 01:33:15.879

them by Monday. But, uh, he was in an impossible situation. Some of our more reactionary friends in the humanities such as, uh, Doctor bourgeois, uh, and some others. I don't know that name. How do you spell it? Vur Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Just like, just like,

01:33:15.919 - 01:33:46.379

just like that. He's a professor of French. He took no part in anything trip in the faculty meeting on Friday when he voted to, against the majority on both issues. Uh, he was a Masterson enthusiast of some sort, Castaneda. Uh, is an honest man who, uh,

01:33:46.629 - 01:34:01.430

I admire him taking the position. He did because he never made any bones about it. And he got up in the Saturday morning meeting and spoke in favor of Masterson and, uh, his reasons were straightforward. You know, I think this is a good man to be

01:34:01.439 - 01:34:22.560

president of the university. Well, I can't, you know, you can't argue with that position and I respect Castaneda position on that. But But by Monday, Jim Castaneda was convinced that the job wasn't uh one that could be done by Masterson. And um that the solidification of

01:34:22.580 - 01:34:43.770

feeling was just too strong. Also by Monday, you know, many staff members were saying, well, if this goes through, I'm moving, you know, they were saying this, I'm, I'm going to not going to stay here. I'm going somewhere else. I think Castaneda was impressed with that.

01:34:43.779 - 01:35:02.009

People like Castaneda were impressed with that, that this, this represented a solidification of feeling that was quite deep and uh was no longer something where people were just bickering. They're gone far beyond that and these people would be, would be real, real losses to the university

01:35:02.020 - 01:35:16.959

if they did. Uh Yeah, if we had a sort of a massive exodus around here of uh uh some of the people of quality, uh it would be a loss and it would be one that you couldn't easily uh replace under the circumstances because academicians have

01:35:16.970 - 01:35:39.140

this big rumor system that goes and the word passes around very quickly that, uh you know, things aren't as good as rice as they were last year. It's amazing how quick the grapevine handle for these things. I had people, I hadn't even formally made the arrangements

01:35:39.149 - 01:35:58.069

to move from here to Stony Brook and I had people writing me inquiring about jobs at Stony Brook as early as last December, which, and it was, you know, on the basis of, uh, rumors and leaks. I had, I hadn't announced the fact around here in

01:35:58.080 - 01:36:11.470

November at all to any of my colleagues, but a man in electrical engineering came to me and said I was just at a meeting in Chicago and I hear you're going to Stony Brook. I've been very interested in the experiment that's going to be taking place

01:36:11.479 - 01:36:26.720

up there. I guess it's already been going on a year. Is it, uh, this campus? It's, it's five years, five years now. Well, they've had more experience with it than I realized. Yeah, they're doing some interesting things and they help some, they've gotten some very, very

01:36:26.729 - 01:36:48.310

good faculty, some really outstanding people. They, uh, their salaries are good and it's in a pleasant place. It's far enough out on Long Island. So it's out of the commuter belt. You know, it's, uh, it's just too far to commute either way. Uh, Stony Brook was

01:36:48.580 - 01:37:11.160

a fishing village. Reminds you of New England. They organized? Yeah, it's an attractive place. But I, uh, think I made the right decision not to go. Well, uh, does that mean that, uh, that you're pretty optimistic about, uh, what, what can be done here at Rash?

01:37:12.490 - 01:37:33.149

Yes. I don't know who they'll select for president or whether they will go ahead and operate with a pro, with due process. Uh, the committee is reconstituted, is that the same members or new members? And, well, it's got slightly different membership. Uh bro is still chairman

01:37:33.160 - 01:37:52.540

of it. Uh But it has, it has somewhat different membership. They uh they decided the faculty decided recently that uh the members of the faculty council, current members of the faculty council would be a more representative committee than the one that was elected. And this was

01:37:52.549 - 01:38:21.259

done in part so they could get Dean Topazio off of the presidential selection committee. I see because he's now a vice president and he shouldn't be on a faculty committee. They uh one of the interesting side things that happened out of this Masterson incident was the

01:38:21.270 - 01:38:46.209

series of events that occurred in the German Department which uh later led uh quite recently to an investigation of the discharge of two young members of the German department. And I was chairman of the A AUP committee that was asked to carry out the investigation. And

01:38:46.220 - 01:39:05.470

uh they, these two men allege that 15 minutes before the Friday faculty meeting, the chairman of the German department called everyone in the German department together in a brief meeting and told them to go over there uh and keep their mouth shut. That Masterson's appointment was

01:39:05.479 - 01:39:22.669

something that was done and they might not like the way it was done but to go there and not say anything about it. Well, both of these men. Well, so I guess most of the men and the department were upset at this sort of oat, some

01:39:22.680 - 01:39:39.040

of them then proceeded to go up and speak. Uh, one or two of them felt obligated to, I think otherwise they might not have as a sale of the meeting, you mean? Yes. Yes. Right. Well, subsequently a decision was made to give these men one year's

01:39:39.049 - 01:40:03.330

notice. And so the question was, did this arise from their failure to kowtow our bow to the wishes of the chairman of that department? And if the, if it had this would be essentially a violation of their academic freedom. Well, we went into the whole matter

01:40:03.339 - 01:40:20.450

in enormous detail. We ended up with a pile of paper about six inches high, including everyone was quite open with us. And so we had access to all the papers that had been concerned and it had been around to this committee and that committee. So there

01:40:20.459 - 01:40:39.379

was a lot of paper and we found that, uh, yes, the German department chairman had acted in a somewhat idiotic fashion, but that academic freedom had not been violated because one, these men didn't pay any attention to what he said to them. And two, this had

01:40:39.390 - 01:40:56.729

nothing to do with the reason for their termination. So there, there, there was an attempt to violate their academic freedom, but there was no real, uh, uh violation of it. It actually failed. And, uh, that's right. The termination contact was for different reasons. That's right. Mhm.

01:40:57.560 - 01:41:17.959

Now, they have reviewed the terminations and, and uh I understand now they may reverse this, uh in one case and probably not in the other, but for different reasons entirely. But there, this was a little side thing that grew out of the master business and created

01:41:17.970 - 01:41:37.379

quite a turmoil and, and uh there was a great deal of rumor passing that this was the first in a series of heads on the block, you know, that sort of thing. And, uh I don't, uh I don't put any stock in that if this was

01:41:37.390 - 01:41:58.220

the first, it got such a going over from the faculty that there won't be a second. And I, after really looking at it, I don't think this was on the vote that was taken in the, um, taken in the various departments uh on Monday. Uh Have

01:41:58.229 - 01:42:16.830

you formed any estimate on the basis of your talking with different people? Uh about what about how the vote may have turned out? I guess it will always be uh confidential. But uh one of the people who was a teller who counted the votes, uh these

01:42:16.839 - 01:42:36.029

were carried over by the department chairman who uh informed me that it was overwhelmingly uh against the appointment of this, that the vote was much higher than it had been on a proportional basis in the faculty meeting. There were more votes cast than they were counted

01:42:36.040 - 01:42:53.290

in the faculty meeting. And uh the ratio was something on the order of 10 to 1. It was, you know, quite overwhelming. Right. And I think that's consistent with the idea that by so many people felt that, you know, who might otherwise have been on the

01:42:53.299 - 01:43:17.200

fence, that, uh Masterson's position was no longer possible that they voted to for, uh, rescinding the point. You start out saying that, um, you thought that uh, this situation that had taken place in the rice was, uh, was unique uh, in you, you, in the course

01:43:17.209 - 01:43:33.939

of the conversation, you mentioned several things that were unique about it. Um One of the things that uh is unique is the fact that perhaps it wasn't carried out by uh uh an organized faculty movement that it was the students who were organized that uh well,

01:43:33.950 - 01:43:54.270

the faculty was, was only organized on that Friday afternoon. And from that point on their organization depended on the students organization. Now, one thing that did occur uh and this, I think this is another thing that makes your price unique was the level of communication was

01:43:54.279 - 01:44:14.759

extremely high. Um And part of this is attributable to that radio station because uh on uh Saturday and again, on Monday, uh you'd see a faculty member with a little transistor radio walking around on campus, you know, listening to what was coming off of the uh

01:44:15.390 - 01:44:33.149

kowl over in the, in the memorial center. And if there were going to be a meeting of this or that or anything, you know, in the latest development, this was immediately put on the radio. And, uh, so there was a very high order of com communication

01:44:34.970 - 01:44:53.439

and this, of course, uh, at times, rumors were communicated, but the radio station did a pretty responsible job in trying to check these things out before they would, you know, put them on the air. And, uh, if they'd made a mistake, they would rescind it. They

01:44:53.450 - 01:45:13.870

would say we were mistaken about such and such. So that, that, that the communication was, was excellent. That made an enormous difference. Now, on many campuses, you don't have that kind of communication and on the campuses where disorder has occurred, I don't think you have this

01:45:13.879 - 01:45:33.129

kind of communication at all. I think that, I think that had a lot to do with the unique character of other thing here. I know that it had a lot to do with the feelings of solidarity that people had that uh they're feeling how bad that

01:45:33.140 - 01:45:53.109

the students and the faculty were actually cooperating with each other because of communication is extremely important in that. And there was communication at a different new level than we've had before. It wasn't all downward, it was, it was upward and downward. We weren't just explaining to

01:45:53.120 - 01:46:15.040

the students why the administration had decided, you know, to do this or do that. Uh We weren't arguing with the students about anything and it was something too that was, uh, the students talk about relevance. Well, this was something relevant to everyone, everyone was concerned with

01:46:15.049 - 01:46:41.970

it. It was an immediate relevant issue and, uh, with a high order of communication, with, uh, students, uh highly organized, the faculty less organized, but with their organization, the students supporting a faculty position, that's what it amounted to. But this whole experience, uh, taught you anything

01:46:41.979 - 01:47:04.970

that you didn't know before about, uh, how to mobilize opinion or how influence passes from mind to mind, person to person. You know, it's difficult to verbalize that. Yeah, I think I learned something from it. I think I learned a lot from it. I learned a

01:47:04.979 - 01:47:22.810

little bit more about uh how to pin down relationships with students to get away from the generation gap a little bit, which is constant. It's the sa professors have the same problems that other people do that are past 30 with the generation gap. That's why I

01:47:22.819 - 01:47:40.189

relate so well to the black students at TSU. They're so worried about being men that they refuse to recognize the generation gap. So they will talk to you man, to man. Uh that's harder to do with white students. Uh They, I think that's the biggest thing

01:47:40.200 - 01:47:58.000

I got out of it personally was, was AAA feeling for students that allows me to break, break through this, you know, and say to them, you know, look, I'm talking to you, you know, why don't you talk to me uh in a more honest fashion and

01:47:58.009 - 01:48:16.870

uh get off my dignity a little bit with students. Yeah. I, I, uh, I learned something along that line and I think there's some intangibles that I find it difficult to put my finger on that. I learned, I learned a new loyalty to the institution. You

01:48:16.879 - 01:48:36.109

see, most professionals in modern American universities have virtually no loyalty to their institutions. That's the hallmark, their loyalties to their profession is really right then. Oh, yeah. Sure. Yeah. When you asked me what I am. Well, I'm a biologist. I say that before, I say I'm

01:48:36.120 - 01:48:56.040

a university professor. And third, I say I'm in rice. Well, I'm more likely now, I think to say I'm in rice. You know, I, I feel more strongly about this place though before and it wasn't just this hang up that uh that some of the kids

01:48:56.049 - 01:49:14.939

get uh where are they? Well, for example, after the Columbia Ruckus, the first one, if you read this book uh up against the ivy wall when one of the students is describing his experience and he says, you know, well, we were turned on, it was the

01:49:14.950 - 01:49:30.270

biggest thing in our life. You know, we went and occupied a building. Well, uh and we had uh togetherness of some kind. Well, that this isn't what I'm talking about. This is not the biggest experience in my life by any means, but it was a profound

01:49:30.279 - 01:49:49.910

experience which uh affected my feelings toward this place, the possibilities of this place. Uh And the students in this place and my fellow faculty members and I, so I have a new kind of loyalty to the place that I didn't possess before. Uh, I've been here

01:49:49.919 - 01:50:09.500

10 years without developing this. I didn't have much loyalty to rise as a graduate student. I had a lot of loyalty to the professor. I was working under again. This was professional in character. Mhm. That's, that's very, that's very interesting. Well, when I think some other

01:50:09.509 - 01:50:30.109

people got that feeling, uh, from it and, uh, I know, I know, for example, Dr Grove got, and I'll probably stay here permanently for that reason. I wonder if part of this might be because you, uh, uh, you mentioned that it's hard to verbalize on, but

01:50:30.120 - 01:50:42.680

I wonder if part of this loyalty might not be the fact that you've helped create something here, which wasn't here before. Uh, you, you may be a little made an investment in that. No, that's true. That's true. I don't think there's any question about that. You

01:50:42.689 - 01:50:58.890

may be a little shy of talking about this, but I've gotten the impression that, uh, that you're one of the most important opinion mobilizers in this whole affair. Well, as far as, as I think, I think there's some element of truth in that. I think there's

01:50:58.899 - 01:51:16.919

some element of truth. One of, uh, of course, I think for a long time in, in the framework of this institution, I, I haven't been an easy person for the administration at times, uh, because I get involved in things in the community that are quite controversial.

01:51:18.640 - 01:51:33.790

And, uh, a pitcher used to laugh about this, you know. Well, I had another one call up today and asked me why I didn't fire you, you know, and he'd say, well, he, I told him, I just can't do a thing with him. I tell him

01:51:33.799 - 01:51:55.209

and I tell him and he just won't listen to and this was sort of a joke. Uh, but, but some of the students, I think a number of, uh, respect me for this involvement and because it's a, it's a, it's an involvement that a lot of

01:51:55.220 - 01:52:11.689

professors don't have not interested in. That's, that's what it amounts to. It's a matter of whether or not you're interested in. And so I have, I had a certain reservoir of, of respect from students at a, at a distance. And I think that you see the

01:52:11.700 - 01:52:33.140

right, the Masterson thing reduced the distance to zero. And I communicated with people that I had, you know, nodded to on the street occasionally. Um, that I didn't know well, at all that I'd never talked to. Now that's continued right up to the time that the

01:52:33.149 - 01:52:51.330

students left the campus a few days ago. They, uh, I had made hundreds of friends among the students. Well, this will change my relationships with students permanently. It isn't just this crop because it's changed the way I behave towards students. Do you mean that, that, uh,

01:52:51.339 - 01:53:10.339

uh, you had, you had less of this in your attitude towards students before the Masterson case than you have now, you used the word shy a while ago, bashful or what was the word you used? Uh, I don't, I don't do well with students in that

01:53:10.350 - 01:53:27.100

way, uh, or haven't in the past. I am shy of students. You know, if people don't meet me at the halfway mark, well, I don't really tend to put myself out to go over the 50%. And I discovered from this experience that you, if you put

01:53:27.109 - 01:53:40.470

out just a little more than this, you know, that it has enormous return value, it makes a big difference, the students because they're afraid of you too. I was gonna ask you, you're afraid of them and they're afraid of you. I was gonna ask you if

01:53:40.479 - 01:53:52.649

it ever occurred to you that you might be awe inspiring, you know, and that's the reason they're a little shy about staying on their side of the fence. I hadn't thought of it in those terms. I thought of it, the fact that I was a professor

01:53:52.660 - 01:54:14.779

and older, you know, this early, but I don't know how, I don't know how you, you, that's difficult to evaluate. Uh, you, you're always trying to know yourself. You know, I hadn't thought of myself ever as being awe inspiring for any. I, I suspect it might

01:54:14.790 - 01:54:29.169

be a possibility that that would account for the remoteness of students, uh, or a great many of them. Then the pre mattress and affair and then, uh, during the mattress and affair they, they, they found out that, you know, you really didn't buy it. Yeah. I

01:54:29.180 - 01:54:46.859

think there's, there's the element there that they found out I was a different sort of person. They thought, you know, they have some kind of image of you, which I, you don't know what it is. Uh And you have an image of them uh individually which

01:54:46.870 - 01:55:07.140

may or may not be accurate. And when they are standoffish you sort of tend to feel, well, they, they're putting me away, you know, they're, they're holding me off and what you may be doing is, is misreading their own shyness, which is what I think you're

01:55:07.149 - 01:55:24.149

saying. Yeah. And I think I learned that, that there is a lot of truth in that, that, you know, that by putting myself out a little more that I overcome tremendous response, the response is there and it's a matter of uh tapping it that they're eager

01:55:24.180 - 01:55:43.419

to make, make it known that you're accessible. Yeah. And it isn't that you, it means that you have to make yourself uh physically acceptable around the clock or anything of that sort. Well, I started something, you know, after the master's in affair, I have an open

01:55:43.430 - 01:56:02.529

house every Sunday night. Well, that's interesting to know that for students. And, uh, it's been interesting because not all of the same students always come, you know, they have other things to do on, on Sunday nights. But we've had, uh, that we've had never less than

01:56:02.540 - 01:56:24.620

20 students every Sunday night. And, uh, it's been a regular thing and I enjoy it. We talk, it's a conversation group, we talk about all sorts of things. Very few of them are in biology. You know, it's a min a minority of our biologists. So it's

01:56:24.629 - 01:56:42.759

not just people that wanna come over there and talk about professional things uh that are related to my own specialty. I think that's a very great tribute to uh I, I can see where this, this experience is, uh has made teaching it rise a far more

01:56:42.770 - 01:57:05.240

gratifying experience than it was before. And it also, uh it also made me examine my own teaching responsibilities. I think it may, it has probably made me re examine what I, what I do in courses. And that will, that's fruit that I think will, will come

01:57:05.250 - 01:57:21.839

in the future. Uh because I look at the students differently and I now will be a different person as a teacher in the classroom. Uh That's irreversible. You know, I think the change is permanent, the change is permanent in, in me and, and, and this relationship

01:57:21.850 - 01:57:37.319

to the students and, and in my relationship to the university. And that's really the same thing you know, one of the most interesting things that come out of this, this uh whole experience is the different ways that groups perceive each other and, and how they can

01:57:37.330 - 01:57:51.529

perceive each other if they just have more information about each other. Now, the fact that this has happened between students and certain faculty members where it didn't exist, at least to this extent before, do you suppose there's any way that it can be? Uh, yeah, I

01:57:51.540 - 01:58:08.100

would love to know you see what some of the students said. I really love because, you know, I, I think I would maybe get some in some insight that I don't have uh that I'm still struggling with. Uh I was wondering if this group perception and

01:58:08.109 - 01:58:22.229

the changes in group perception uh could be applied to the board or to the administration, what kind of information would they need to, to change their outlook and attitude towards faculty students? Well, one of the things they would have to do would be to communicate in

01:58:22.240 - 01:58:41.899

a meaningful fashion with us. Uh and not uh not from the standpoint of authority. Uh they have come back to us, you know, most just recently a few, just a few days ago and, and informed us that uh they want the Presidential Selection Committee to continue

01:58:41.910 - 01:58:54.850

its work and so forth. But that, and then they carefully put on this thing to remind us, but it must be remembered that the Board of Trustees has the legal authority, you know, to do so. And so, well, this is no one's ever argued that they

01:58:54.859 - 01:59:13.680

have the legal responsibility. We just want somebody the fact they've cra that's all, that's right. Now, you've got to remember of course, that the trustees as I indicated earlier, don't do this for a living. Uh If, if anything, there are motives, uh if you examine what

01:59:13.689 - 01:59:31.149

are the motives for being a trustee, uh there must be uh ego satisfaction to be gained from the honor of, of being on board of trustees of a prestigious institution. They always make a big thing out of the idea that uh that there's a service element,

01:59:31.709 - 01:59:49.479

you know, they, they're doing service. Well, yes, they are doing service. But I doubt seriously if that is a driving motive, I think driving motive is uh is ego satisfaction and put this together with the fact that then, then they are told that they have legal

01:59:49.490 - 02:00:09.970

responsibility and that they devote no more than four hours a month to the average trustee four or five hours a month. It's very difficult to come to understanding under those circumstances with this large and to them amorphous band of people here, students and faculty uh who

02:00:09.979 - 02:00:28.589

seem to be upset at times about issues which to them must seem to be Mickey Mouse and fatal and, and of no significance in the big real world as they put it. Mr Lovett has made, made the remark once in my presence, that university professors are

02:00:28.600 - 02:00:49.870

like a bunch of Children. Well, they're not like a bunch of Children. They're just not like the adults that he normally associates with. Mhm. They are a different kind of adults. And, uh, it's difficult, that's, it's difficult to attain understanding. You didn't want to know though

02:00:49.879 - 02:01:07.680

that, that, that evidently George Brown had a little different attitude. At least he had a hands off at it. George Brown never pretended that he understood the minds of members, but he understood that they were different people. Now, he's Brown is a highly individualistic person himself

02:01:07.859 - 02:01:28.750

and he respects individualism. Um, no, I don't think he ever made any pretense of saying I understand, you know, but he did understand that the thing could only operate if he, as I said, walked on eggs and didn't put his fingers on it and didn't try

02:01:28.759 - 02:01:47.319

to impose his own quirks and individualism on my experience with Mr Brown. The first experience with him the first year I was here and I didn't know Mr Brown from Adam's off ox. It was an interesting one. I came to a classroom in which I had

02:01:47.330 - 02:02:01.839

a class. I opened the door and the room was filled with middle aged men and there was a white haired gentleman up in the front who was talking to them and, uh, the white haired gentleman it turned out was George Brown. I didn't know this at

02:02:01.850 - 02:02:16.660

the time, but I came on into the room and informed them that they would have to vacate the room because I was going to teach a class here. Mi Mr Brown came over, he didn't introduce himself. He just apologized to me and they all got up

02:02:16.669 - 02:02:36.759

and some of these businessmen looked rather uh peculiar, but they've got up in Mr Brown's urging and left the room and went somewhere else. Uh Two days later, I get a letter from Mr Brown apologizing and then I realized who he was. Well, I was a

02:02:36.770 - 02:02:51.660

little embarrassed. I probably would have behaved a little differently if I had known that this was a member of the board of trustees and that uh someone in the development office had made a mistake and put them in there. It wasn't his idea, but I was

02:02:51.669 - 02:03:06.339

impressed with the fact that with his behavior. Did you ever find out what this group was for? Oh, it was some, you know, group of engineers or something that was having, it just turned out he was having a meeting here on the campus and had been

02:03:06.350 - 02:03:22.479

invited to speak to them about something they were meeting all day long or something. And uh the development office had arranged the room and so on, but they hadn't bothered to check on whether the room was in use at that particular time of the day. It

02:03:22.490 - 02:03:40.350

was a regularly scheduled classroom. But Mr Brown knew how to now that we had another member of the board who did have a lot of understanding that was Newton Razor. He, he's an exceptional person. Is he still alive or is he, he's retired and retired from

02:03:40.359 - 02:04:07.049

the board? But uh now Mr Razor is a different, he has a scholarly mind. He's a lawyer. Um and somehow was able to, you know, at least project the notion that uh that he could approach problems with a great deal of understanding. That's a rare thing

02:04:07.060 - 02:04:29.399

for the average trustee in a university. From what you said, it sounds like the composition of the board is quite different now. Yes, quite. How do you think the presidency will ultimately ultimately work out? Uh uh Do you think that uh that the board will live

02:04:29.410 - 02:04:45.430

by its word to uh to consult with and get the approval of their, I hope they will for the, you know, the long range health of these institutions uh because it's going to make it, it's going to make it difficult. If they don't, it'll be difficult

02:04:45.439 - 02:05:05.990

for the board and it'll be difficult for the faculty, it'll be a little less difficult for the students. And I don't think that they will be faced with the same difficulty because they graduate off every four years, or at least a large proportion of them. Depends

02:05:06.000 - 02:05:19.259

on, I hope the board doesn't do something which I think would really be bad, uh which would be to rush out and make an appointment this summer. Is there any possibility that they might, I don't think they will. Do you think they might have learned just

02:05:19.270 - 02:05:35.399

that much anyway? Yeah. If they learn that much they will have learned a lot. They will have learned really all we could expect them to learn from that experience. I don't know what you say this quite a lot. Yeah. That would be a lot. They learn

02:05:35.410 - 02:05:54.890

that you can't cram something down the throat of the faculty and stews in this fashion. Then they would have learned a lot. Well, I realize, uh, that I've taken quite a lot of your time not to read. And I, um, I really appreciate you coming in

02:05:54.899 - 02:06:13.399

on the, before you, uh, get away from the, you said you'd be here until, uh, Monday. I'm taking off for Woods Hole, Massachusetts. I work there in the summers every year. I'm not exactly sure that we're gonna have this transcription done. Uh, uh, before that time,

02:06:13.759 - 02:06:23.779

the ratio you said there, we put a lot of stuff on tape and I don't think our tran will work on a Friday. That's a holiday. You can send it to me if you like. Well, why don't I get your address? Because I'm, I think that's

02:06:23.790 - 02:06:59.279

much better that way. Marine biological laboratory. Mhm. Woods Hole, that's two words, Massachusetts. Then I don't get it. That's all I need then. Well, you didn't do anything special. Interesting up there. I have, I've been going there every summer for 10 years. I guess. I have

02:06:59.290 - 02:07:21.759

a lab that's all set up there so I can walk in and go to work just I'm working on sharks at the moment. Sharp Hambo called a physiological urmia. They, um, they run around normally with the concentrations of a substance in the blood gon urea, which

02:07:21.770 - 02:07:39.830

is uh uh at levels that if it's present in a human kills you and appears in humans as a consequence of all different kinds of kidney disease. And, uh, one of the problems we're working on is to try to figure out, uh, what it is about

02:07:39.839 - 02:07:59.240

the proteins, the sharks that are not knocked out by urea and we're interested in it. You know, it's a general relationship to problems of kidney. Well, that would be a fascinating, it's a summer project that I've worked on and it comes along slowly, but it's a

02:07:59.250 - 02:08:12.649

good place to go because there's, uh, they have a supply department that go out and collect these sharks for me and we hold them in enormous tanks and, uh, 20 or 30 at a time so that, uh, I have a lot of material to work with.

02:08:12.660 - 02:08:27.459

I couldn't do that here at all. There's no place at Galveston work. Well, I guess the, uh, w Woods Hole is just sort of unique in the world for what it, uh, what it has it is, you know, I have a lot, I have a lot

02:08:27.470 - 02:08:40.390

of attachments to that place too. I own a house there and, and I'm a trustee of the laboratory. And, uh, so I, I have a lot, I'm, I'm deeply embedded at Woods Hole. My Children, as a matter of fact, I think, think of Woods Hole more

02:08:40.399 - 02:08:58.589

is home than any place else because, uh, certainly my oldest child had more continuity going to Woods Hole. We, you know, we were moving about and she was born in Houston when I was a graduate student and we went to Los Angeles and then Baltimore and

02:08:58.600 - 02:09:13.669

then Houston, you know, WW. Woods Hole was constant all the way through. Yeah. They associate the winter sessions with school, you know. Well, then the W hole becomes really the. Oh, yeah. And they all have jobs. My 15 year old son now has a, he's a,

02:09:13.680 - 02:09:34.649

has a job this summer and as a mailman at the laboratory, uh, my 16 year old daughter is a chambermaid in the dormitory. And so they're, they're, they're deeply embedded in the place too. It sounds as though you worked out things very well for, uh, for

02:09:34.660 - 02:09:52.899

a fine, productive, gratifying life. Well, reasonably well, it goes up and down. But I wouldn't, if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't make some mistakes I've made. But I'd do the same thing for a living. Well, I certainly wish you a fine summer

02:09:52.910 - 02:09:58.779

and thank you, it, it's been a real pleasure. Well, I've enjoyed it. I like to talk.