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All right. So today is October 12th, 2023. Our names are Karina Pan and Karis Lai and we're here today with Dr. Chris Lo on behalf of the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. So, just to start, would you mind stating your full name and

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when and where you were born? My full name is John Christopher Lo. I was born in London. I was born on the feast of Saint John the Baptist, hence the first name of John.

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And I was named Christopher in honor of my late father's seminary in London. So, there you go. That's quite a nice way to state your name.

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I like the Saint John. How would you describe the household and neighborhood you grew up in? Oh. When I was young, my late father was the headmaster of a boarding school in Hong Kong.

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And as was customary in those dim dark days, you—the headmaster, lived on campus. So, my neighbors was the first grade boarding class. So, they were put right next to the

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headmaster's apartment. So, whenever one of those kids cried, my—one of my parents would go racing in and seeing what was the matter. So, that was my early neighborhood,

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my—a–a room, maybe 30 first graders in boarding school. Which is probably unique, I don't know. I think that's very unique.

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What—how would you describe the demographics of that first grade class? Oh, I was very young myself. I'm not sure that I was–I was younger than them, actually, but so, I—it made me think,

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why, I suppose more in hindsight than I–than I was at the time, because it was at the time one thinks, doesn't every six year old go and live in a boarding school? But it was—as I grew older, it was more of a hindsight. Who on earth dumps a six year old in boarding school,

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and why? As life would have it, I would end up myself teaching in boarding schools later on in my life, and I got to know some of those answers sometimes. Maybe it's the old edict that money doesn't buy happiness.

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Maybe that–that comes to mind. Just because you're wealthy doesn't mean that you have healthy and happy family dynamic. But yeah.

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Yeah, that's definitely true. What do you think were some of the values that your parents emphasized in your upbringing, or some of the things that they raised you to be very cautious or important? Oh gosh, I think service is one thing.

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My–my–my—I alluded to my late father was an ordained Episcopal priest, and both of them were teachers, and my father was also a headmaster at–at the time of my birth. So it was a case of serving others

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and, whether it's you're dealing with wealthy boarding school parents on one side who own yachts and travelled widely and lived in luxurious mansions,

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or the other end where you have domestic staff working for the boarding school, at the other who–who lived in squalor. I know my parents employed two, and–and I think you can identify with these,

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two–two young ladies who lived on a junk, on a Hong Kong junk, out in the waters. And–And I'm sure you're–you're familiar with that concept of people who lived on these Chinese boats on the waters,

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and they employed two of them to–to be my sort of ammas, my–my, you know, people who looked after me as–as a child. So–so, you had–you had these—this diversity of people who lived on a squalor of a boat.

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And they went home there at night, along with people who lived in multimillion dollar mansions and–and I think my parents treated them equally with a case of service to both. I have another question too, in terms of you feeling like you were put in

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a boarding school like very early on. Would you say that you felt like the boarding school raised you more, or your parents raised you more? Oh, I didn't live in the boarding school.

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I lived—my–my parents—my father was the headmaster. So we lived in–in an apartment that was provided for us for the job, so I didn't live with the kids as such. I–I certainly have people who–who raised me,

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in the Chinese word amma of people who–who did that, and while both my parents worked and those were the days when the ammas were actually Chinese, but much later on, they all became Filipinos who–who–who–who

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came to work in–in those sort of circumstances. I–I–I don't—I mean the fact that my parents lived with—I lived with my parents. I mean, I saw them every day.

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It wasn't—and the people who looked after me went home at night. I mean, they didn't–they didn't stay the night unless my parents had an event they had to attend. And then I was looked after until they returned home.

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Yeah. Gosh, I haven't thought about some of these things for years. Thank you for reminding me. I was wondering too, is it correct that you are an only child? I am, yes, not by choice.

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Not by choice. My parents had two kids before me and they both died of SIDS, sudden infant death syndrome. So, I was a very unexpected child that came along seven–seven years later after the death of the second child.

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So, they weren't expecting or planning for me to come along. I just did. So, I became all the joys and all the disappointments rolled into one and, you know.

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I suppose that's what therapists are for, so. Yeah. I was going to ask you if you could elaborate, too, on your experience being an only child. Well, I didn't have a choice, and–and I—it's quite

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by coincidence I was on the U of H campus on Tuesday, and I had lunch with another lady that I was talking to about ministry at U of H, and it turned out she was an only child too. So, and I think most of us would say that the–the–the

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thing about being an only child is that you don't have a choice and–and you make do with the circumstances and, you know, neighboring children and whatnot and school friends and that sort of thing.

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Yeah, definitely. As an only child myself, I can totally understand. [CL: There you go.] Yeah, definitely. I mean, long ago, I was on a bus with my mother going from A to B and might

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have been going to school or to an event or something. And this random Chinese couple appeared on the bus, which we don't normally see on a Sydney, Australia bus line. Not-not where we were. And–and somehow they got into conversation with my mother

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and–and then they—the–the lady turned to me and says, "Ask your mother to have a few more kids." And I was very young and I thought about, how do you do that? But never mind.

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That's a–that–that was another question for another day for another time, so. Well that's certainly–that's certainly an experience. On a slightly different, I guess, sort of path.

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Did you grow up celebrating any, like, ethnic holidays and traditions, or was your, like, ethnicity a big part of your culture growing up? Yes is the answer. And I'll tell you one of them in particular. Now I'm going to-I might embarrass

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me—myself. What is the Chinese festival in which people carry lanterns? Does that mean Mid-Autumn Festival? Is that right? Am I right?

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I would like to say yes. Okay. In which you carry lanterns and you march around and–and one particular anecdote I want to give

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is since the boarding school where my late father was headmaster was a Christian one. It was an Episcopal boarding school. In the Mid-Autumn Lantern Festival, with all the elementary school kids, with their beautifully–with their beautiful

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lanterns that they've been presented by their parents or whoever for–for the year, we happened to—the school campus happened to be right opposite in Hong Kong, the Stanley Military Cemetery, where many of the World War Two deads were buried,

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and they included the headmaster of that school during the wartime. Sorry, the wife of the headmaster who died during the Second World War. They turned the–the–the–the high school boarding

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campus into a Japanese internment camp, and they locked up all the white people, all the Caucasian people in–in that boarding school as a prisoner of war camp. But as you can imagine, many of these kids were not Christians.

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They came to a Christian school, but they were not Christians. So one of the things my father did was that on this Lantern Festival, Mid-Autumn Lantern Festival, they had the kids march through the cemetery holding their lanterns as a way of telling them

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that–that Christians do not fear ghosts. So we walk from the elementary school campus to the high school campus and then back by the highway. And in doing that, we went—we shortcut through the cemetery to the high school. And it was a wonderful witness,

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in a way, with a twist on it that–that we don't fear ghost. Ghost has no dominion over us. That's enough. I really love that–that little story.

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I think that's really cool. I'm kind of wondering, going off of that, as you mentioned, kind of the role of having both, I guess your ethnicity also a strong Christian influence in your life.

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Like, what role would you say that Christianity played in your early life? Like, would you say you were a professing Christian since you were a very young child? Or did–did your relationship with faith, like, alter a bit according to, like, your parents' faith?

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For some reason—I mean, PKs, as we are often known as pastor's kids, I mean, we are–we are notorious. PKs are notorious for being rebellious, and–and–and–and for–for not keeping the faith.

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I'm an outlier to that, that I have and I mean, being quite stoic about it, even–even through my middle school and high school years. But, yeah, I've always sought, I don't know, a sense of refuge.

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You know, I thinking off the top of my head, I'm fond of—an idiom I learned some years ago that if you want to see God laugh, tell him your plans. And last Saturday evening, I was at Saint John Divine Church

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for a—in the afternoon for a church service, and I ran into someone who sang in a choir that–that I used to be the accompanist for, and, I asked how he was and he said, this is the third year that his wife has—is in hospice.

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She's having hospice care at home. And so his life is sort of lingering and, you know, on hold while his wife is receiving 24 hour care. Now, lucky for Ralph, he is a wealthy retired engineer,

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and he could afford this sort of stuff to pay for his wife to be in hospice like that. About a month ago at–at a church where I used to be organist, I attended the funeral of a 23 year old who—oh,

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not far from you guys at Rice on Kirby Drive. She came back from a concert and took a turn a little bit too fast on Kirby, which is very dangerous roads, some parts of it. And she ran into a brick mailbox and died.

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And she was an only child. And I went to show support for the parents and it–it's a case of—wow. I mean, these are not things you plan for in life.

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You don't raise a beautiful young daughter. You think about college and graduation and jobs and marriage and grandchildren and all the rest of it. You don't think about a child that's going to die on the road.

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You reach retirement and you don't think about your wife's going to waste away with Alzheimer's and be lingering there. I mean, these are–these are not issues in life that one goes out with a five year plan to achieve.

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Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think as a formerly rebellious PK myself [CL: Okay.], I can understand and sympathize very much with the PK experience. I just had a–I just had a text on WhatsApp maybe

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a month or two ago from–from the wife of an Episcopal priest up in Toronto, Canada. And in fact, their eldest child is now the Episcopal bishop of Hong Kong Island. And she texted and said that she was very

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concerned her grandchildren are not going to church. And that concerns her and I—asked me–ask me if I would pray for that. Pray for her grandkids that are not going to church. Yeah, definitely, definitely.

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I think pivoting to a little bit of a different subject. What was like the first memory that you have of being interested–interested in like music or playing the piano or the organ? Oh, fate! I think my–my–since my father was a headmaster,

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one of his former—parents of one of his former students said that the kids have left—have grown up and left home and they have a piano sitting around not being used. Would we like to have it?

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So, my father said yes. And so came the piano. And that that junk piano came with us to Australia eventually, but—and died there way after my college years.

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And the–the piece de resistance was my–my mother took me to a Baptist—her home Baptist church in Kowloon one Sunday, and the final hymn was sung to a tune that I now

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know many years later as "Go Tell Aunt Rhody" which would—and they they put some religious words to–to "Go Tell Aunt Rhody," which in American terms would be be quite quaint and sacrilegious, but never mind.

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And they found that I went that—after hearing that, I went home and started tinkling out, "Go Tell Aunt Rhody" on the piano. So they thought, we better get this kid piano lessons. So, that's how it came about.

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Were your parents, like, all together? Like, did they approve of you going to music, or even full time music career? I'm speaking to two lovely Asians, and you know the answer to that.

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The answer is no. Of course, every Asian parents want their child to be a–a doctor or lawyer or engineer or something that would make them a lot of money and be proud. You know, and there's a–there's a Chinese saying that you hope your child would grow up

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and be a judge, you know. In–in–in fact, many years later, I found out that there were—there was a conversation between–between two of my uncles when they found out that I was going to major in music,

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wondering whether they would–they would have to financially support me for the rest of my life. Now, neither of those uncles have sent me a red cent, but that's another story. So.

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Yeah, definitely. So, how did you kind of navigate that, I guess? In kind of balancing knowing what you wanted to do versus not really having the full support of your parents? I think my career guidance counselor in high school made me finally realize,

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it took a long process, that I really didn't have the brain to go to the law school. I really, deeply wanted to become a lawyer. I think more–more because I love watching courtroom dramas, and because I had any source of memory to be able to do that,

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not knowing that I would have to memorize chunks and chunks of stuff and–and to this day, I am not–I am not good at memory. I—especially short-term memory stuff.

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So, for example, if I'm conducting, I would–I would conduct from a score. When when I taught middle school and high school, I made, of course, in contests I had to make my kid sing from memory,

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but I used the score. So—which was allowed in contest. But, that's just Texas. I was wondering too, in terms of geographic location, when did you move to Australia and why?

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Oh, I didn't have a choice. I was six years old. My father accepted a job in Australia and we went. I didn't really quite know where it was, not at six. We went on a ship. That's how long ago it was.

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It took about a week or two, I can't remember. It was–it was fascinating. Awesome. Okay. So kind of pivoting a little bit more into, I guess, the rest of your education.

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So, I see that you attended Deakin University in Australia to pursue your bachelor's of education in music. So, I just want to ask, like, what drew you to this specific college and why education specifically?

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Well, in Australia, unlike the US, where it's a buyer's market, I mean your—the US system is that you applied for a gazillion colleges and then you have the right of refusal.

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In Australia, it's not. You take—well, back in those days, you take basically four public examinations and the complicated mathematical formula which gave you your–your mark at the end or your numerical mark at

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the end, determined what you were qualified for and the—so you write down on your list of preferences what—which course and which college you wish to

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attend. And one of them—you would only get offered one of those in your state unless–unless you wanted to apply elsewhere. And that's–that–that became a whole great deal more complex if you want to

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apply out of state, where we're in this country, you're–you're expected or encouraged to do so. In Australia, it was–it was very much an in-state thing. So, and, my numbers came up and that was the college that

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accepted me, so. One quick question, too, on just being in Australia. I was wondering what your experience was like being an Asian Australia. I just asked because my father also—he grew up in Australia.

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Really? Okay. Where was he in Australia? He was in Perth. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, he must have–he must have been an oil and gas man then. [KL: Mm-mm.] Oh, okay.

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Because every other American from Texas who goes to Perth goes–goes there for oil and gas. I–I was a child during the Vietnam War. And I was called in the playground—I

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used to be called the Viet Cong by other kids, and that was long before I took Asian studies at high school and understood who the Viet Congs were. You know, I was watching Batman and Robin on–on TV,

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and Here's Lucy. I had no idea who the Viet Cong was. So, it was the thick of it.

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We—I know my–my parents had–had thoughts about whether my third grade teacher was a racist because her–her son was a–was actually fighting in Vietnam at the time.

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And whether seeing an Asian face brought back bias, memories, I don't know. I–I remember those theories being pondered. It was an interesting time.

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It was also a time when Australia had a, what it was, known as a White Australia policy, which was something that happened right after the Second World War, in which the right-wing government at the time, ironically called the Liberal Party,

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which was—it was liberal in name only, they were the Conservative Party, believed that if you can prove yourself to be white, and that formula was very flawed as well, because if they wanted to prove you weren't, it

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was very easily done. So they–they really wanted a certain type of white people to migrate to Australia. And the theory was that if they filled Australia with white people wanting to escape Nazism and Communism, that would be

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a–a strong repellent to the possible invasion by Red China at the time, and there was a–a theory, a–a concept that somehow China was going—they were going to

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win the Vietnam War. They were going to invade Thailand and Cambodia. Sorry. Thai—yeah, Cambodia, Thailand, Malaysia. Come down. Somehow convince all 128—20,000 Indonesians to be communists and then invade Australia.

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That was–that was the right-wing theories at the time. So, it wasn't a happy time to be Asian. Now things changed in 1972, just as

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President—who was it? Was it Richard? Well, it was Jimmy Carter by then, but it was Richard Nixon—after Richard Nixon's trip to to meet Joanne Ly in China and under–under President Jimmy Carter and all that,

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the recognition came of China and lots of Western countries started to recognize the People's Republic. And then things changed. It was a left-wing government in power in Australia at the time.

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And suddenly, wow, we were considered—we were announced after being so anti-China for so many years. Suddenly Australia was part of Asia. I mean, fancy that. We were suddenly sort—saw it

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on—in our political statement and in the news that we were trading with Asia because we were part of Asia. So, there you go. So. You know, what did they say?

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The–the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So, go figure. And–and now I'm so freaking old, I remember—I mean, since this particular week, we're looking with horror at the Hamas invasion

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of–of Israel. I mean, I was very young in the '73 war, uh, when the Palestinians invaded after Yom Kippur. And–and the '74 is Middle East

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War that resulted, which resulted in a horrible oil crisis which sent gas prices skyrocketing, but I digress. No, thank you for sharing. I think it was very interesting to track, like, the historical trends and then kind of

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connecting it back to your own experience and kind of tying back, jumping back to your college experience. Were there any defining moments that you had in college, or were there any, like, meaningful academic or extracurricular things

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that you participated in during that time? Oh, just thinking on the top of my head. One of the books that I read as an undergrad,

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which I—not hated but I disliked because it was so hard to read, was call—entitled "A Philosophy of Music Education" by an American from Northwestern University called Bennett Riemer. Now, I was to–to read

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this book again, twice again. One for my master's degree and one for my doctorate. Neither—many decades later, and I have to confess that neither time was it any easier reading.

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But in this process, at one of the conferences I attended in Edmonton, Canada, I actually met Bennett Reimer, who–who wrote the book and the guy who was my major professor at University of Houston for my doctorate,

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was one of Dr. Reimer's doctoral students. So in some regards, I had come full circle. I mean, the textbook of someone that I had read as an undergrad I got to meet as a doctoral student and know his influence,

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and then I knew—I'm–I'm digressing into the weeds a little bit. There is a—there—in the music education world, there is–there is rivalry between the interpretation

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of aesthetic–aestheticism, and there's one–one side that is psychologically grounded, which they argue that aesthetic education can be documented and proved

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scientifically through–through–through–through research, through experimental research. And there is the other side, which proves that no, it's merely a philosophy.

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You can't scientifically document this. And Bennett Reimer stood for one side of that formula. And in my master's degree, I happened to study with the leader of the other side of the argument, who argued that you can't scientifically

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prove aesthetic appreciation. So, I had this unique—what do you call it? Juncture, that I met both sides of this argument.

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And for some, it's really is a needle in a haystack that is fought among maybe, I don't know, a few hundred people that really, really concerned about this, but I–I got–I got to meet up front both sides of this argument.

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So. Wow, that is such a cool experience. Just getting to track that, and really just see firsthand what that's like.

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I mean, the–the–the–the joke of this is that I remember attending a–a conference in San Antonio, the Texas Music Educators Association conference, and I remember somebody getting up to advocate for a certain person running for office, one of the office of the

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society in which they–they said that this person was a true classroom teacher, not an academic that spends his time in an ivory tower. And I thought, okay, all right. Now, now we've come to the–to the–the rock bottom

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and the base of the pyramid, so. All this highfalutin stuff really doesn't matter to the people in the fields. Yeah, that's so interesting.

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Just seeing how that plays out in, I guess, this very broad field of music education. [CL: Yeah.] Yeah. I think just moving on a little bit, I see that you came to the US to actually get your master of music in choral conducting at Florida State University.

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I'm just wondering why you decided to move to the US for music education instead of staying in Australia. I had met the professor I worked with at Florida State when I was in high school. He came and did a masterclass with my high school choir.

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And I thought this guy was amazing. I—how did he move his hands in a way that he got the results that he wanted, while, dare I say, my high school teachers and others had to do a lot of yelling and shouting to get us to

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sing in the way in which they wanted. And how did this guy just merely use his hand and say very little words, and do this? And I thought, as a 16 year old, whatever at the time, I–I want to study with this guy.

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Now, it wasn't for another—more than a decade later before I did so, but that was always in the back of my mind, and I'm glad I did. Now at the time, this particular professor was working at

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USC in Los Angeles, and I did the sums, I looked at the books and there was–there was no way I could afford USC. But then, as though fate knocked on the door, he moved universities to a state university in Florida and I

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thought, "I can afford this." Well, not without sacrifices. It was a lot of sacrifice, still, but much more so than had he stayed at USC, so.

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That's really interesting. As someone who has done choir for a long time, I'm just also interested in your experience. Like, did you ever then conduct choirs, or, how did, like, I guess, your interest in conducting—when did that start?

00:32:37.740 - 00:32:52.410

Was it by seeing this man? I think, yes, I've always conducted choirs, but when I–when I graduated and started teaching, I conducted choirs in middle school and high school.

00:32:52.620 - 00:33:09.690

And I suppose being a youngster, I was more concerned with how can I do this to the maximum effect? And I wanted–I wanted to know how to do that and I wanted—I–I was fascinated by the American concept that you can take,

00:33:09.690 - 00:33:27.300

well, band, orchestra, and choir as a classroom subject, whereas in Australia you can only take academic music as, like a–like a musicology course or music theory course with–with the only practical thing you can do is,

00:33:27.300 - 00:33:42.030

like, take an instrument as–as–as a subject. There was no—all the–all the–all the ensemble stuff, the choir, bands, and orchestra was done as an extracurricular activity.

00:33:41.550 - 00:33:59.260

And which I knew prohibited its maximum potential because you were rehearsing basically one night or two nights a week, whereas in the American situation you had at least 45 minutes a day, and

00:33:59.260 - 00:34:18.040

obviously you can do a lot more in that time period and, you know. And, if you can't change the paradigm, you have to change the–the situation. I suppose I felt I needed to be in a place where I can do that.

00:34:20.370 - 00:34:36.880

But of course, the irony is that you're—when you're in that situation, you are also the recruiter. And the irony is not lost on me. I don't know what your middle school and high school experience were,

00:34:36.880 - 00:34:55.550

but basically we had six minutes to entertain ten year olds, eleven year olds, in fifth grade who came on a tour of our classrooms at the end of the spring, to attract them to take our elective in middle school the

00:34:55.550 - 00:35:14.470

next year. So you had six minutes to sell to a ten year old, to come and take your elective and that sales pitch decided on your teaching load the next year and your worth.

00:35:14.800 - 00:35:31.370

No pressure, huh? And, you know, they could also take that shiny brass instrument or go and play an orchestra or go and take art or drama or shop or whatever it was. And, yeah. Which is the

00:35:31.370 - 00:35:46.590

other–which–which is enough to give you an existential crisis that you–you have to appeal to a ten year old mentality for six minutes, which. That seems like a very formidable— [CL: No pressure,

00:35:46.590 - 00:35:57.340

right?] No, not at all. I was wondering along those lines, like, what would you say, like, defines a good conductor? I think a lot of people just think, oh, conductor,

00:35:57.340 - 00:36:10.090

like, you wave your arms, you keep the beat. But I'm sure, like you, with all your experience, could kind of give a definition of that. And as well as the idea of like, to what extent is the strength of a choir based off of the conductor versus like the actual singer?

00:36:10.120 - 00:36:27.610

Oh, since I'm not an orchestral conductor, I mean, I attend many orchestral concerts, including those at Rice. As a choral conductor, I–I was told many years ago, you can probably tell whether a choir is worth listening to by the first

00:36:27.610 - 00:36:44.910

five notes that they sing, and I–I think that is correct. Still, to this day, you—just the first five notes is enough for me that it's, wow, is this a good ensemble or not? Or, do I have to put up with it?

00:36:44.460 - 00:37:02.220

True anecdote. About a month or two ago, I had a composer friend in New Zealand who wrote to me to say that some choir, some community choir, was singing one of his pieces and invited him to–to be present for their performance on—of

00:37:02.220 - 00:37:19.500

his composition, which he wrote back and after the first performance, and said it was really awful, and the fact that he had to go back the next night to hear it all over again, to–to wave at the crowd, was–was just a mind-numbing experience that he was not looking

00:37:19.500 - 00:37:32.810

forward to, so. Wow, yeah. I can't imagine what that must be like. I do notice that you switched from, like, the piano to the organ at some point. So, can you just, like, kind of describe, like,

00:37:32.810 - 00:37:46.360

I guess, why you decided to switch? Karina, you're very perceptive. Thank you. Wow. Wow. I'm—you're very good. I think it's the full realization that I

00:37:46.480 - 00:38:02.980

was going to suck at romantic 19th century literature. I actually auditioned in my high school year. I auditioned for a performance degree, and I was—that particular college, only accepted two pianists— one pianist a

00:38:02.980 - 00:38:21.430

year, and I was the runner-up for that candidature. And they accepted someone else, for which I'm grateful, because that meant that I ended up in music education at the end, because, had the truth been told, had—was

00:38:21.430 - 00:38:35.680

I—had I been on the market as a concert pianist, that I had to make a living from being a concert pianist, I would have really sucked and-and-and maybe been sort of, been on the streets or something, because that wouldn't have worked out.

00:38:34.840 - 00:38:51.250

And I–I think I soon realized that I could reach a certain level. I–I could not master the–the complex 19th century literature, the Rachmaninoff, the Liszt and–and all that Ravel stuff that people are supposed to

00:38:51.250 - 00:39:04.490

churn out at–at–at the Cliburn competitions and the Tchaikovsky competitions and whatever. I–I could not have mastered that. And I decided I–I needed to–I needed to go sideways

00:39:04.490 - 00:39:14.930

and–and do something else that didn't–didn't require my hands to dance all the way around the keyboard and practice six hours a day and–and hope that I might be able to do it. So.

00:39:16.090 - 00:39:26.320

Yeah, definitely. Kind of just a lot— Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say. Oh, yeah. For sure, for sure. I think like, what is like, something that you would say is, like, the

00:39:26.320 - 00:39:40.220

biggest difference in between, like, playing the piano and playing the organ. Oh, that's easy. In the piano, you're–you're making a hammer hit a string to create a sound.

00:39:40.220 - 00:39:57.650

In an organ, you're releasing air from–from a valve into a pipe that makes a sound. So, the technique is very different. And the organ–the organ sustains, it does not have

00:39:57.650 - 00:40:14.900

volume control. While as, piano, the sound decays after the string–string is struck. If you don't let your hands go on an organ, the–the–the sound will go on forever. So, that's one of the major difference.

00:40:14.900 - 00:40:30.350

And inevitably—obviously, it requires a very different technique to master that than—and plus the fact that you have 32 notes on the pedal board that you've got to control as well. So, you've got two hands and feet and—two hands and two feet to–to

00:40:30.380 - 00:40:50.020

maneuver and it's a different technique. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I remember I got to see a trumpet recital and, like, they had the organist accompanying and, like, seeing the feet move was crazy to me. Yeah. Yeah. And there's some excellent—I was–I was at–at Shepherd school not long ago

00:40:50.020 - 00:41:00.640

for a recital. You have some wonderful things going on in–in—at the Shepherd school. I just wish your ticket prices are not so expensive, but that's a different story.

00:41:01.420 - 00:41:13.750

We can take that up with Rice after the interview. I was wondering, in terms of just your general experience in the US, what was it like getting used to the US? Was it what you expected?

00:41:13.780 - 00:41:32.670

Were there any things that were, like, major culture shock to you? Let me give you one, maybe quite flippant, example. I was—when I arrived—I don't know whether you know this, but in the Southern hemisphere, the academic year basically goes from

00:41:32.670 - 00:41:49.230

February to early December, late November. And in–in–in of course, in the US, the academic year starts in August. So I had some months to play with, and I–I was wondering what to do with eight months in my life. And I had a–a newfound friend who was a

00:41:49.230 - 00:42:04.860

headmaster of a boarding school in–in North Carolina, and he said, I can't pay you very much, but come and be my musician in residence at this boarding school in North Carolina. And, so, one,

00:42:06.050 - 00:42:23.650

hot January in Australia, I left, and I arrived into a very icy cold January in North Carolina, and I was teaching at the school when—two of my cultural shock was—in Australia we drank tea with—which is hot—with milk and sugar,

00:42:23.660 - 00:42:40.550

and–and–and in North Carolina, being a good southern state, they drank sweet tea, cold, sweet tea. And it took me a little while to embrace this, I wasn't quite sure how I would take this—it was

00:42:40.550 - 00:42:57.140

such a—I don't know—such a strange experience. It was some weeks before I dare tried it and obviously I–I soon realized that was the easier, easier beverage to go and get to drink. Everything else was more complex, so I–I learned to drink sweet tea

00:42:57.140 - 00:43:11.380

and–and then, of course, I realized that not everybody drank sweet tea, and–and–but I've stuck to it. 30 years later, I've stuck to it. The—what was the other one?

00:43:17.010 - 00:43:32.200

... Oh, I was going to say something about–something about peppers. But never mind. It may come back to me later. No worries. Well, yeah. That is so interesting. I never thought that, like, tea would be like a culture shock, but wow.

00:43:32.200 - 00:43:40.210

And so I— And I recently learned. Just to cut you short. Sorry, Kar-Karina. I just recently watch-watching a

00:43:40.210 - 00:43:56.150

documentary on the BBC that—in India, one particular part of India, and I forget which, produced a tea that was more bitter for the Brits to tolerate.

00:43:56.150 - 00:44:10.160

And that's how come—they come to add milk and sugar to it, because they couldn't stand the bitterness of that Indian tea, and hence that c-custom became the norm, when Queen Victoria drank it, so.

00:44:10.630 - 00:44:19.700

Oh, wow. That is so interesting. [CL: Who knew? Right?] Interesting. A little history lesson. [CL: Yeah.] So, I think overall, how has living in the US,

00:44:19.700 - 00:44:39.970

like, changed you? And would you say, you're like, for the better or like, for the worst? Long ago, I—as an undergrad, I got to meet this famous Japanese music educator called Shinichi Suzuki.

00:44:40.150 - 00:44:55.540

He was the inventor of the so-called Suzuki method, which there are lots of practitioners in Houston, and I know some of them that teach Suzuki method. And, I dutifully purchased his

00:44:55.540 - 00:45:11.260

autobiography. And, when I met him, and when I–when I finally met Dr. Suzuki—bless him, he's dead now, long dead now—he wrote in my copy of his autobiography, "Man is the son

00:45:11.290 - 00:45:28.230

of his environment." And I've reflected on that over the years, many, many times. And I think that is true, it's the people that you encounter, that

00:45:28.230 - 00:45:44.140

come—that come across your path in your sojourn of life, that affects how you think, that affects how you perceive, and how you

00:45:44.140 - 00:45:54.910

react. I mean, one of my–one of my friends from Florida State told me that he, after graduating with a degree in computer science,

00:45:54.910 - 00:46:11.410

he took a job in–in Rochester, New York, and being a good southern boy, he–he told me that he soon learned to lose his southern accent if he wanted to be taken seriously in Rochester. Now, you know, everybody asks me,

00:46:12.610 - 00:46:27.970

tells me that I have an accent, a-and I–I–I don't—I can't go anywhere in my life without being asked where my accent is from, and it's–it's obviously not a pure accent belonging to any group of people.

00:46:27.970 - 00:46:43.000

So, that always is a good opening point. I don't know whether you nice ladies saw the movie Crazy Rich Asians, which came out a few years ago, by Kevin Kwan.

00:46:43.270 - 00:46:59.320

I don't know whether you knew Kevin Kwan grew up in Houston. In fact, he grew up in Clear Lake, and I have it on good authority that his mother still lives in Clear Lake and teaches the piano, around here. I have not met Kevin Kwan.

00:46:59.320 - 00:47:16.270

I don't run in those esteemed circles. I understand he did attend Clear Creek High School and attend–and attend University of Houston, Clear Lake. He got his, his creative writing

00:47:16.270 - 00:47:34.690

degree from there. And when I-I read the book–and when I read the book, I was able to identify with most of the scenarios he talked about. I had met most of the people—types of people that he

00:47:34.690 - 00:47:51.610

stereotyped in his book. Not, maybe not down to a T, but I, yeah, I–I and–and–and I had this wow experience, sort of.

00:47:51.730 - 00:48:06.520

He–he made a composite of these people that he encountered and–and I could–I–I have seen people like that in my life, I wouldn't say they were bosom buddies, but I have–I have met people that are like that.

00:48:07.960 - 00:48:25.980

And I—and you may have too, and you suddenly have to—what–what–what's the word for it? Code switch in dealing with that ... I mean, I—wait, I had a family wedding here,

00:48:26.610 - 00:48:43.260

about a month ago. And I, I suppose being a senior citizen, they, they sat me next to two at a–at a family dinner—they sat me next to two other senior citizens whom—one was directly related to me, was my aunt,

00:48:43.260 - 00:49:00.330

and the other one I didn't know as well, was the uncle of one of the great uncles of the groom. And soon in the meal, it sort of became obvious to me that the–that this great uncle of the groom really

00:49:00.330 - 00:49:19.320

expected to be revered in that ancient Chinese system of–of being a senior citizen, that you're supposed to revere him. And I sort of thought, wow, okay. It—I mean, there was a little code switch go off in

00:49:19.320 - 00:49:34.270

me. Now, I was not—I didn't know him well at all, I've met him before, but I didn't know him well, but, I mean, I was—I, well, I know lots of old people, and they don't expect to be treated in that

00:49:34.270 - 00:49:47.840

sort of revered way. But that was—yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Wow. I think I definitely have seen kind of experiences like that too,

00:49:47.840 - 00:49:59.420

as sort of like an Asian American myself. And I think it's really interesting what you talked about in regards to Suzuki, because I did grow up with the Suzuki method. [CL: Oh, okay.] About six, seven of his books learning the violin. [CL:

00:49:59.660 - 00:50:08.480

Oh, okay. Okay.] Yeah. So, it was really cool to hear that you had a chance to, like, you know, get a copy of his biography and, like, kind of just track his career like that.

00:50:08.480 - 00:50:18.200

But that's really cool. I–I–I–I love his repertoire. I–I think they're very well graded. [KP: Right, yeah.] I actually met the lady who

00:50:18.200 - 00:50:34.560

translated that—I mean, he was a violinist, Suzuki himself was a violinist, but—and the lady's name escapes me right now, but she–she took that and made, and created, the equivalent in piano.

00:50:34.570 - 00:50:49.400

And my–my college in Australia was very much the headquarters for the piano school for Suzuki. [KL: Oh wow, that is cool.] And, I–I–I can see, I can see the strength.

00:50:49.410 - 00:51:09.450

I–I use the repertoire myself, I taught using the books, but I–I—we also have this—well, you're talking about this cultural codeswitch before, I mean one of the–the issues, as you–as you will remember, Karina, that Suzuki em-emphasize a lot on memory

00:51:09.960 - 00:51:22.770

and of listening. And i-in the Western education, we–we–we teach the concept of sight-reading and–and–and visual recognition a lot earlier than the Japanese.

00:51:22.770 - 00:51:37.270

So that was one of the bridges that we were constantly crossing. How do you, I mean–I mean, you know, you've heard–you've heard of people say, well, I play by ear. Well, Suzuki is the best example of that teaching method.

00:51:37.270 - 00:51:52.620

You play by ear, but it's relating that to–to reading as well to make it effective. I mean. [KP: Right.] Yeah. Just the other day, I was—oh, when I was on UH campus,

00:51:52.620 - 00:52:07.190

somebody said to me, oh he said "I'm a drummer," to which my follow-up question was, "Do you read as well?" I mean, i-it-it's quite often we have to employ a drummer, but a drummer that doesn't read is really frustrating.

00:52:08.960 - 00:52:23.270

Yeah, definitely, I can imagine. Yeah, I think moving on a little bit more, too, I see that you later decided to complete your Doctor of Musical Arts here at U of H. So, how was that experience for you and what was it like kind of

00:52:23.270 - 00:52:36.150

moving from Florida to Houston and what, like, made you decide to make that switch? Well, let me–let me correct you for a minute. I–I did, but the sad part of it is that in–in–in–in–in

00:52:36.170 - 00:52:52.930

complete honesty, I did not complete my doctorate, I finished my–my–my comps, but I never completed my dissertation. I had a—my—two of my professors, one resigned and one died, and just for the circumstances of

00:52:52.930 - 00:53:09.140

replacement I–I was among a number of doctoral students who never got to finish my degree, but that–that's trauma for more therapists to sort out later on in life. But such is life.

00:53:06.240 - 00:53:22.010

Going back to what I–what I mentioned before, when you go into this sort of thing, you don't, you don't foresee what may happen years later or what may interfere. I actually—I knew one of my foreign student counselors at U of H

00:53:22.850 - 00:53:40.410

actually told the anecdote that he made sure all his professors signed his dissertation in a particular week. And the week after one of his professors, that signed his dissertation, committed suicide.

00:53:40.440 - 00:53:56.280

So yeah, whoever would have–would have thought, I mean, had–had he not got that professor to sign off on his dissertation the week before, he–he might have been in more limbo. So, you know, life–life does

00:53:56.280 - 00:54:15.630

that. I–I was a foreign student, I was using OPT, optional practical training, and I was teaching in Cincinnati and after my master's degree, and it was obvious that

00:54:15.630 - 00:54:32.860

they were not going to support me for an H-1b visa o-or a green card. And that's one of the things they don't tell you in–in education: they're not going to do that for you. So, it was a case of uh oh, my OPT is running out,

00:54:32.870 - 00:54:51.970

what do I do? And in the spring semester of that year, I quickly decided to apply for all the doctoral programs that I saw advertised in an–in an American Choral Directors Association directory.

00:54:49.270 - 00:55:08.190

And so, it was very much in those primitive days—I sent out videotapes of me conducting to all these schools and some of them said yes, but we have no money to pay you.

00:55:08.790 - 00:55:22.650

Some of them said, no, we don't like the look of you. And University said—University of Houston said—yeah, you can come and we'll pay you as well. So, that was—then I went and looked up on an atlas,

00:55:22.680 - 00:55:40.180

in those days—I don't think you can pull—Google Maps was not invented by—at that stage—pulled up an atlas and actually found out where Houston was. That's really crazy. Like–like you said, it's things that you can't make up.

00:55:40.210 - 00:55:59.900

Honestly, I'm wondering too, like, what do you feel like is the most challenging part about teaching music? Oh, gosh ... I suppose the idea

00:55:59.900 - 00:56:15.960

is getting your message across: communicating what you want the other person to do. To sing in a certain way, or to play in a certain way, and whether they can duplicate that.

00:56:19.160 - 00:56:33.010

And it's–and it's your interpretation, right, at the end of the day, right? You see a play. It is—the play is the interpretation of the director.

00:56:34.720 - 00:56:52.360

A performance is the interpretation of the conductor or the performer. So it is a way, it's not the way. That's why we keep going back to see a Houston Symphony performance or a Houston Grand Opera

00:56:52.360 - 00:57:04.830

performance, because it's been interpreted in a different way. And, I mean, there is, for example, there is–there is an anecdote that

00:57:04.830 - 00:57:22.180

Elgar conducted his own composition of the Enigma variation earlier on in his life—he composed it when he was quite young, and he–and he conducted another recording of this work when he was quite old. And the tempo for both recordings are very different.

00:57:22.450 - 00:57:41.730

So even in life, you can–you can change your perspective a-and–and–and interpret music differently. Robert Shaw, the late, great choral conductor, used to say

00:57:41.730 - 00:57:59.170

that he likes to spend an hour with Bach every day studying, score studying. I mean, this is a man that's famous for his recordings and for being the music director of the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra.

00:57:59.170 - 00:58:14.470

And yet, in his old age, he's–he still said he likes to spend an hour studying Bach scores every day. So a long way around to answer your question is that it's—you never finish interpreting, you're always

00:58:14.470 - 00:58:28.670

revisiting something. And–and–and–and it's something new. I mean, for example I—at church the other day, I played a piece that I had known since I was at least 17 or 18,

00:58:28.670 - 00:58:45.440

and I was having–I was having psychomotor problems getting my fingering around a–a piece that–that I could have done from memory in my youth, and I had to really think about that. So, that's the thing about music.

00:58:45.440 - 00:59:02.510

You–you–you got to keep working on it–it doesn't–it doesn't stay, the muscle memory doesn't stay in long-term memory. And ... you—yeah, it has to be kept fresh.

00:59:03.650 - 00:59:11.780

No, I think that makes a lot of sense. It has to be kept fresh, and it can always have a new, fresh take on it as well. [CL: Yeah.] Yeah, I was also— [CL: And–and—] Yeah,

00:59:11.780 - 00:59:24.500

go ahead. Oh, I was going to say and–and–and what you think is one interpretation when you're younger is when you come back to it when you're older. Since you're a violinist, Karina, I–I–I have to tell you,

00:59:24.500 - 00:59:39.520

one of the pieces that they made me study in–in sort of a musicology class was the Alban Berg Violin Concerto, which is, you may or may not know, is heavily twelve-tone. It's not the most pleasant piece to music—of music to listen to at all.

00:59:39.520 - 00:59:54.960

And I remember, we had to study this. Not to play, but as a–as–as a musicological analysis, when I was 17 or 18 or whatever. And I remember remarking to a violin teacher that

00:59:54.960 - 01:00:11.630

this–this piece was so hard to swallow, and–and–and she looked at me and says that, yeah, you—you're 18 and you haven't, you know—17 or 18—you haven't had this experience, anything of life, and you haven't had the sort of

01:00:11.660 - 01:00:27.450

great suffering. I mean, this composer wrote this piece after the loss, after the death, of his daughter, and that sort of thing, and yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think–yeah, I think music does have a way in which you kind of have to grow into a

01:00:27.450 - 01:00:41.940

lot of the pieces. Like, I think back to when I learned viola, I also used Suzuki method, and there was similar in which, like, a lot of times you're not fully comprehending, like, the gravity of what you're playing. Kind of moving on as well, I saw that you were music

01:00:41.940 - 01:00:54.400

director of the World Vision Youth Ambassadors tour. Could you just tell us a little bit of how you got that gig, and what it was kind of like, what you did? Well, I'll tell you how I got that gig.

01:00:54.400 - 01:01:10.570

The–the regular conductor turned them down, had a falling out with World Vision or that, or the director of this program, and they were hard pressed at short notice for a–for a director, and the director of this program lived in

01:01:10.570 - 01:01:25.970

Hawaii and–and he approached the–the–the–the conductor of the Hawaii Symphony—Honolulu Symphony—and said, "Would you conduct this tour for me?

01:01:26.000 - 01:01:42.260

I–I did need someone to lead a choir tour." Well, Samuel Wong, who is a dear friend and still communicates with me at least–at least once a week, if not more, said to–said to him 23 years ago, well, try Chris Lo.

01:01:42.260 - 01:01:56.660

And–and that's how I got the gig. I was a doctoral student at U of H at the time, and I think I had about a month or two's notice to–to–to embark on this world tour. So that's how I got the gig, because someone

01:01:56.660 - 01:02:16.010

else had a fight, so. Yeah. Wow. I think, switching gears again, I noticed that you're involved in the Foreign Policy Association's Rice Village Great Decision chapter. So can you kind of share about your passion for,

01:02:16.010 - 01:02:31.940

I guess, foreign policy, like how you developed an interest for it and just kind of the work that you do within this organization? Right. I don't know whether—since you're both Asian—I don't know whether growing up, your parents told you to stay away from politics?

01:02:33.500 - 01:02:46.250

I'm actually a political science major, which is really funny. Wow. Okay. For you. Okay. I'm glad you got to embrace that. I really—I was, as a high school kid, I was involved with the parliamentary

01:02:46.250 - 01:03:01.660

association at my school, which sort of greatly disgusted my mother and brought her to tears on many occasions because, she had–she had it down to—her logic was that being an Asian, I should not be

01:03:01.660 - 01:03:16.810

involved in politics. And it was always a back burner. And obviously I–I–I left it alone. I went into music and then, I don't know, maybe about a decade or a

01:03:16.810 - 01:03:29.580

little bit more ago, one of my—I sang with the Christchurch Cathedral Choir, and one of their members was a retired sociology professor at University of Houston. And she invited me to this group

01:03:29.580 - 01:03:48.470

and–and we've ... Well, we—our–our topics are set by the Foreign Policy Association. They publish a–a book that has eight chapters in it.

01:03:48.470 - 01:04:04.970

They're all written by academic professors and cover–and cover a different topic every year. Although, I've been in it long enough to know that you can bet that there'll be a chapter on China, there'll be a chapter on Latin America,

01:04:05.300 - 01:04:19.410

at least every year. And–and more recently, Korea, Korea Peninsula. It's just a different variation on it. And, so, since I've taken the

01:04:19.410 - 01:04:34.310

helm at that group, I've, instead of just the members discussing, and I've always invited an expert, sometimes the author of that paper, to come and join us for the discussion. And

01:04:34.310 - 01:04:50.490

the–the–the Baker Institute has–has been a good friend. In fact, I just got a–I just got an email yesterday from Dr. Steven Lewis telling me that there's some great shindig on the 23rd at

01:04:50.490 - 01:05:02.940

Baker Institute about China. Or is it? And he's invited me–me and my—and the Rice Village Great Decision Group to come along. I hope to be there. It's actually one of our meeting nights,

01:05:02.940 - 01:05:24.150

so I'm going to see whether we can postpone that for another time and–and come to that meeting. I came to it last year, and I very much enjoyed it. And the Baker Institute invites lots of good people around. [KP: Yeah, that's—] I love listening to people who know what

01:05:24.150 - 01:05:39.840

they're talking about from an academic perspective who have researched, and rather than mere talking heads, who shouldn't be talking heads, but never mind. That's why you're in college. That's why you're getting educated. That's wonderful.

01:05:40.700 - 01:05:51.590

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think the Baker Institute is really great. I'm interning with them, and like, I also attend a lot of their events. So it's really cool that you're really involved with them too.

01:05:51.980 - 01:06:03.980

And so, I think one more question I have about, I guess this, foreign policy, is what areas do you think you're most interested in or passionate about, and what do you kind of tend to follow more closely?

01:06:07.500 - 01:06:21.090

I'm also–I also get pampered with the Asia Society publication. Do you know that–that group, the Asia Society? There's one in—here in Houston. There's one, it's–it's–it's in the museum district.

01:06:21.090 - 01:06:32.310

And there are—there's an Asian society. Well, the ones that I–I happen to end up on the mailing list, well it's one in Switzerland, and one in Australia, and I understand there's one in Hong Kong and New York as well,

01:06:32.310 - 01:06:47.640

which–which I-I'm not on their mailing list. So I'm–I–I do glance at a lot of their activities and seeing—being Asian, I'm–I'm curious as to know what academic discussions they're raising.

01:06:51.550 - 01:07:08.020

I mean, it's ... I'm not naming names, but I–I–I can certainly tell you the frustration that, quite often these days, being ethnic Chinese, it's easier to talk to other Asians than ethnic

01:07:08.020 - 01:07:22.800

Chinese Asians. Because you're—apart from the fact that you're wondering whether they just want to sell you cryptocurrency or just want to rip off your personal details for their nefarious

01:07:22.830 - 01:07:39.430

intentions—it-it's easier to–it's easier to talk to a Malaysian or an Indonesian or a Japanese and–and just–just come off as random strangers

01:07:39.450 - 01:07:53.890

or–or–or people you meet socially and–and have a conversation without worrying about: What, are they really a Chinese communist spy or what? What's their nefarious intent?

01:07:52.990 - 01:08:09.400

Or, even now, from people from Hong Kong, whether they're, gosh, whether they're pro-democracy or whether they're–they're pro-Beijing. I mean, these are delicate waters. I mean, I mean, I realize that in Texas, we've–we've come to that as well.

01:08:11.600 - 01:08:26.760

But gosh, one doesn't expect these things. So it's–it–it is a cultural shock in–in that regard. [KP: Yeah, right. Definitely—] I mean, I–I have one cousin who is,

01:08:26.970 - 01:08:43.300

she's older than me, and very recently, she took up the British government's offer, and she's migrated to the UK. Wow. Wow. That's a change. I mean, I don't know whether you knew, but the UK government has offered anybody

01:08:43.300 - 01:09:02.060

that was born in Hong Kong before the–the reclaiming by–by Beijing that they can settle in–in the UK. And my cousin has taken that offer. So. [KP: Wow.] I mean, yeah, I mean, she's older

01:09:02.060 - 01:09:16.400

than me, so imagining fitting in into a new environment with nothing. That must be such a big change for her. Wow. Yeah, I mean, it-it's what drives someone to do that so late in life.

01:09:16.410 - 01:09:30.530

I mean. [KP: Mhm.] And that's–and that's one of the complexity of being ethnic Chinese. I agree. Yeah, it's definitely, there's a lot of nuances that go in, you know, with that. And I think–I think pivoting to sort of the last little

01:09:30.530 - 01:09:49.210

segment of our interview, what do you feel most proud of when you look back at your entire life? Maybe that I'm still alive. When you—as I told pe—young people your age, take lots of

01:09:49.210 - 01:10:05.930

photos, because you'd like to be remembered at your best. So. I remember–I remember a middle school kid I taught who–who showed me a photo of his father at 21 and–and then remarked, that's when dad was hot.

01:10:06.170 - 01:10:21.470

And, life is a bit like that. And–and you realize that, as you grow older, you have—your body does strange things to you, and you–you have to be under the care of lots of people who call

01:10:21.470 - 01:10:34.550

themselves with the name ologist at the end of it, and-and they take care of your medical needs, or you worry about your–your–your survival and–and, you know.

01:10:33.380 - 01:10:49.400

Apart from the ageism—I mean, I'm–I'm glad I'm still holding a job, touch wood. Because even in my profession, there is–there is a preference, and certainly

01:10:50.210 - 01:11:06.920

one of the reasons why I'm no longer teaching is because I sort of aged out. They could find younger people to do this for a lot less than I was being paid, and I–I happened to be let go at a time when about

01:11:06.920 - 01:11:23.480

30 teachers, maybe all of them older, were let go, supposedly because it was a recession. But, you know, there is certainly that, but I'm glad I'm doing what I am. I'm sure I'm—at my church,

01:11:23.480 - 01:11:43.370

I'm not everyone's cup of tea because I really don't know a great deal about–about contemporary church music, which a lot of them prefer. But that's a whole different conversation ... Staying alive, and one

01:11:43.370 - 01:12:00.260

of—maybe I'll just conclude this a little bit with an anecdote. One of my dear friends is—her name is Anne Thompson, I can name her—she's 92 years old. She used to be the lady who gave the pre-opera talks for the Houston Grand

01:12:00.290 - 01:12:16.250

Opera. And Anne has sort of adopted me like a wayward child. And I get—whenever I have something in—that need to stay over—she lives in Spring Branch. If I need to be on that side of town, I do stay with her,

01:12:16.250 - 01:12:29.180

and I save me a lot of driving. But at 92, she–she is determined. She still drives and sees her children. One is in Los Angeles, one is in Atlanta, and she

01:12:29.180 - 01:12:42.740

still holds a class in her house. Once a week she give opera lectures to other geriatrics who come to her house once a week. And she's a role model.

01:12:42.740 - 01:13:01.300

She–she keeps sprightly, and she loves to cook for me when I come. And I hope that I can return the favor to others in–in the fullness of time. For the last three years, I've been helping one of my former

01:13:01.300 - 01:13:20.710

students, who is a one car family and her–her husband had to take their son on a Tuesday night to trail life at church. And, so in order to help the older two girls,

01:13:20.710 - 01:13:39.140

I drive mom and the two girls to a youth choir practice on Tuesday night. That's my contribution to society. So, we do what I can while we have the strength to leave this place better than what we found it.

01:13:41.110 - 01:13:57.130

I love how you're—what you said your parents instilled in you. First, the service comes back full circle. I was also wondering, when and where do you feel most at home? I think the answer—I have lived in, what is it, 11 cities and,

01:13:57.520 - 01:14:12.150

I can't remember, four countries or whatever in my life. I think home is where you are. And it may not be where you want to be, but it–it is, you've got to make peace with home being where you are and the environment

01:14:12.150 - 01:14:29.330

you're in. And–and I think, if you don't make an effort, or do something about that, I–I think you're going to be at—the person at–at a lost ...

01:14:35.480 - 01:14:52.290

I mean, I-I've–I have been helping two young men, one is a doctoral student, one has just completed his undergraduate degree, one is from mainland China, but he's doing his doctorate through a

01:14:52.290 - 01:15:04.620

university in Thailand. And one is–is Cambodian, who did–who did–who also did his undergraduate degree in Thailand. And I have been helping them with

01:15:04.620 - 01:15:17.840

grammatical revisions of academic papers, and they–they're both wanting to get out. They want to go, come to the West.

01:15:17.840 - 01:15:34.450

And–and it's very painful for them. They want to–they want to leave their environment that they're in. And it's not easy, as you know, to get here. And I had

01:15:34.450 - 01:15:49.630

to–and I had to say to this one young man who asked me, he–he just got a new job in Cambodia, in Phnom Penh, with the airport. And–and he said, but there's this opportunity for me to go and do a master's degree in Korea, and should I go and take it?

01:15:49.630 - 01:16:06.880

And I said, you're just starting a job. If you leave now, it will look horrible on your resume because your first job, you're only employed for 14 months and then you're leaving a second job before you—just after you've taken it, so it's not going to look good for you.

01:16:06.940 - 01:16:17.490

So stick it out for a bit longer. Thanks for sharing that. As we wrap up the rest of the interview, is there anything else that you would like to share?

01:16:17.910 - 01:16:31.770

Well, thank you for your time. I've really enjoyed talking to the two of you and I–I–I'll be–I'll be fascinated to see how—what kind of world leaders you're going to end up doing. And will I be reading about you in the media,

01:16:31.770 - 01:16:50.590

and leading this country or any other country? It's so nice to be, yeah, talking with smart, intellectual people who are–who are going to guide this world in–in the near future.

01:16:50.590 - 01:16:53.650

And I'm honored to be talking to you two today.