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This is Polly Moore today is May 3rd 1969. Uh We're at b library time is 920. The interviewee is Mr Charles Myers. This is tape three side one beginning at footage 478. Uh Charles, we were just talking informally here about, um, uh how, uh, the process

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of education you, uh, came to re evaluate some of your ideas on, uh, on, uh, what an education should be and you were discussing some of some of the, uh, um, some activities you were engaged in last year while you were in student government. Uh, I'd

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like to hear a little bit more about, uh, how the process of education, uh, changed your ideas about education and how this affected your, um, impression of, uh, what rice could be and should be. Well, oh, entering here as a freshman. Mind of what education should

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be was fairly, fairly standard. I guess you'd call it because you come here and you, you learn certain things and you, you do well and then you get a degree and you go out and you choose a profession or graduate work or whatever you wish to

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do. And, uh, I'm afraid this is kind of the opinion that the board has right now and that their idea of what a good university is, is to, to try to maximize the average of uh sat scores of the entering freshmen and to try to uh

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maximize their salaries when they get out. And 20 years later say that uh rice graduates are making X $1000 a year. And I think this is what really constitutes a good university and, and it's reflected in their uh stipulations on, on publications by the faculty. And

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that I found here when I, when I first came here that there were a number of faculty who are trying to affect change, like uh B Woodward who is no longer here. He's a professor in biology, uh and Joel o'brady, who was a professor in English

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and he was kind of moved out of the university here and these were men who really had new ideas and, and it's, it's really hard to specifically state what I think education should be. But just briefly, it is an experience and that uh having gone through

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Rice University, the, the formal education that I've gotten, I think is really very unimportant and that the real facts and the real information I've gotten my transcript is really, is really fairly unimportant and that it doesn't really reflect what I've gotten out of the university. But

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what I have to really appreciate here is that uh dealing with the people and I consider maybe a dozen people in the faculty to be my good friends and, and the students I've met with, you know, I met and have, have dealt with and that we've,

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we've lived together and that, uh to me, education is, is first gain in perspective and that you have to have some meaning and some reason for doing all this before you really go about doing it and that you have to, you have to understand why you're

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going to go through all this, this rigor uh before, before you can really appreciate it. And before you can really understand anything from it, because I, I can't see that a lot of people here that I've known are able to go through and they can get

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a degree and they can go out and get good jobs and they can even go to graduate school in a curriculum and, and certainly they're, they're quite happy with it, you know, and that's fine. But, but there are, there is just, you know, this, this other

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something that you can get from it and it's, it's very intangible and yet just in dealing with the professors and dealing with the people themselves, it's something that to me is very valuable and that uh the boards image of education is, is very straightforward and quantitative

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and, and it's uh uh to them, uh a good university is made uh particularly by a good pr department and they and they have the, you know, the, the good uh image that they have to produce and, and that what's really inside, she doesn't seem to

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count too much to them because they don't understand this and that they are, they're businessmen, very conservative businessmen and, and, uh I've grown up around businessmen and I think, I kind of understand how they think and uh a businessman is, is adopted to a structure that

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is a hierarchy. And to him, he's used to, to every person has his duties and he has certain people under him and he has certain people above him and everyone's responsibilities are very well defined and you know, what your obligations are and you know, where your

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authority lies and it's all very, very strictly organized and they don't seem to realize that a university. And to me this is what a university is, is, it's a, it's a small democracy because you just can't have one person who can make all the decisions in

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a certain area. Simply because uh because of the intelligence you have here, you have a number of people who can be uh informed and can make the decisions on a, on a fairly representative level, I think, and if not, you know, trying to represent each, each

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person's views, at least they can make the decision on their own basis. And that within the university, on most instances, you'll find that major views are represented and that, that they can be expressed very well in committees. And this is uh 11 reason for having the

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committee for presidential selection is, is, you know, you, you had um three students and six faculty members, you certainly didn't have the same ideas. And yet I think I have agreed on on a basis for going about selecting university president because these are the people who,

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who were most idealistic about the university, who are most interested in it and who are really, you know, widely concerned with the future of rice. And uh the, this is where the real, the real rub lies is that the board has one idea of what education

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is and the faculty and students have another. And the president is in the middle and he is the one who, who has to keep the board happy because there his employers and yet he also has to represent the faculty and the, the university per se to

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the board. And this is where I think President Pitzer uh in the end did a really good job because he had, he had really come under a lot of criticism from students because he was uh kind of slow and, and he wasn't uh really a dynamic

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person and leading the university and yet in his own way, he very subtly instituted a number of changes. Uh you know, he put them, you might say he put them by the board, he convinced them and uh he created these changes within the university, uh, that,

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that, you know, all of a sudden you look around, you say, well, you know, here's what we have and, and it's, you know, and, and, uh, that you can, you know, I really didn't begin to appreciate President Pitzer until last year. But you can see that

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he was a very intelligent man and he didn't, he didn't know what we were working with and he, uh, most important of all, I think he knew how to work the board around. And uh perhaps toward the end, I, I think that the board realized what

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Fritz Pitzer had done to them because uh now there is the kind of reaction once he has left and now there's a general reaction on campus to try and move back to the old way. And this is, this begins to explain Masterson. And uh two things

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I want to go into ideas on uh uh a little more uh fully, one was uh you mentioned open house policy. Then you mentioned the faculty publications. Uh There's two things that you were working with doctor last year that liquor policy was an open house policy.

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It was uh almost non existent. My freshman year we had something like one or two open houses a month and just have women or men in your room in the dorm pool rooms. Otherwise it's, it's off limits. And uh they had a pretty liberal open house

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uh in the early sixties. And then, uh it was, uh, students began to abuse it and eventually it resulted in strippers in the rooms and a couple of gang bangs and, and uh finally the university clamped down. So they just weren't going to have any open

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house because they were worried about their image. And this is the board and the administration representing the board at that time is that, that they couldn't see Rice's image being ruined by the newspapers getting hold of, of some scandal, you know, that, that Rice Man had

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women in their bedroom, you know, and to them, and I guess it's their puritan morality that this was, you know, that understandably they were afraid that it would ruin the image, this would reduce the revenue in the university. And of course, that's something that, that goes

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into the balance sheet that they can look at and the numbers that they understand and, and they'd like to see the numbers go down. So, uh when, when, when pitcher was here, the students were just beginning, student governments were, were very responsible and I was very

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impressed that student governments did have, uh you know, they were very responsible about everything and, and they were slowly gaining open house policy. And uh so that now we have uh open house every afternoon and two in the evening and we're going to expand that eventually.

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And it's, it's kind of a hard struggle but, but uh uh Pitzer did a lot to convince the board to pacify them and, and mollify them about our changes. And the same thing is true of liquor policy that, uh, you know, although we'd all had liquor

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on campus before and no one had really objected. We finally got it admitted and passed. And, uh, this past year they agreed to let us have liquor parties on campus, which was a great change really. And, and, uh, of course, the fear from the board and,

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and from some of the people in the administration is that people in the outside world are gonna look at rice and say, look at all this sin and they're going to react by not giving us as much money, which is kind of silly judging by the,

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the general university uh attitudes evolved in the past two years. But at that time, you know, it was really important. And uh so, um now compare with other schools that you would compare it with residential. Well, of course, you know, I haven't, I haven't been to

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that many, but I have had friends at the, at other schools and, and I was raised in uh in Dallas and my parents and just my mother and my sister and brother in law, I went to SMU and that was my image of what the school

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was. And uh when I came here, it was changed tremendously just because the social structure is so different. And uh of course, the, the intensity of the students is, is a lot different. And here I think, uh, the faculty will admit and from what I've seen

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of other students is, I think we have the, the best student body. It's at least as good as any other school in the nation. Uh, the graduate departments still aren't as strong as they, as they should be, you know, for a really top university and that

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we don't really have an outstanding graduate school and in very many curriculums around here. Uh but uh and also I think our, our faculty is, is outstanding, although we, we really lose uh a number of good teachers because of this publications thing and, and other reasons

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that uh that I'm afraid the university isn't quite as interested in, in, in having good teachers as they are good scholars and they define a scholar by his, his number of publications. For instance, my, one of my professors this year, Dr Margaret who is chairman of

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the chemistry department, uh tell us in class that this man is really a good chemist. He has 10.5 inches of publications, you know, so you take their publications and stick them on top of each other and this is a good scholar. Uh And uh you know,

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certainly I just don't agree with this um because we have another number of faculty this year and, and in the past who have had their, who have not been grand tenure who have been excellent teachers because simply because they haven't published, you know, they, they've been

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good teachers but they, they haven't received their uh tenure because uh they, they haven't had the, those, those quantitative things that, that the administration and the, the board considers makes a good university and a good professor. So, uh that in, in a way is, is why

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I think, you know, that rice is behind this is that in a way of I've become very pessimistic about the university itself just because uh I see that, you know, we, we really could be good and yet it's just these outmoded concepts that's keeping us back.

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And that this is, this is why I think that, that as uh Doctor Ward said, we were on the must always remain on the threshold of greatness. And, and this is pretty much the way we stand is that we have potential and yet we still haven't

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really created a university. And by good, I mean, something like you'll get at Harvard or Yale or, or universities where it seems new ideas are always welcomed and that you have a faculty who is interested in, in implementing them and, and at least trying them out.

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And uh so that for that reason to make a, a qua you know, a quantitative ranking of, of rice, I would put it maybe 15th in the nation or something like that, you know, and this would hurt the board for him to hear it, you know,

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to hear this. But, but, uh, on that basis of something, you know, you really can't measure it's all normative and yet I think it's really, you know, generally agreed among, among most of the people here who really take it in and who really take the time

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to try to understand it. You know, we really are lacking a lot of things and Pitzer was just beginning to, to move us in this direction. He was putting students on university committees. We instituted this, let's see, it's my second year on the side. Um And

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uh uh he put two students on about seven or eight of the major university committees. And uh just before I came here, the undergraduate affairs committee was formed which had uh three students and uh five or six faculty that made the actual policy uh for undergraduate

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living. And this is the one, this is the committee that had to approve the uh liquor proposals and open house and proposals that we had changed. And of course, now they could be over, overruled by the administration, but pitcher never did it. He, you know, he

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was, I think in favor of these in the whole and he did a lot to convince the board of what we were doing and try to explain to them what it was. And uh considering the, the kind of people who are on the board and the

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very conservative old businessmen. This is quite a task, you know, and pitcher, I think, did a very good job of it. And, uh, so that, I guess comes down pretty much to, to what we want and in the way of a, of a president, you know,

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I was, I was sorry to see that Pitzer had resigned and I can understand why he did it just because he has a lot more leeway at Stanford and that there's not as much pressure from the board on him and that he can really do something

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with a good university and he can take Stanford, which is probably the second or third time, you know, school in the nation and, and he could, you know, do a lot with it and he has the resources and the freedom to do it that he didn't

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have here. And uh so we were, we were enthusiastic about, you know, getting a new, you know, a new president. You know, we were, we were sorry to see pitcher go, but we thought that, you know, there, there was a good man somewhere, you know, the,

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the philosopher King, who, who could come in and who could take us from the threshold of greatness and, and, and act as a dynamic guy in force. And we, we all realized, you know, what the board was like, but we didn't really think that they were

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quite as bad as it turns out. Uh I now think that they are quite as, as really reactionary and, and almost uh uh tyrannical and their way of running the university and the, our idea of what a president and by say, R I think that it

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was fairly agreed on, on the student advisory committee and on the presidential selection committee that uh we wanted a man who would, would further these changes at rice and who would really, you know, be willing to listen to students and professors and, and act as a

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representative of the faculty and not an employee of the board. And uh so everyone went about the, the process fairly idealistically and, and then it came out in a, in a rumor for the first day that, that Masterson had been selected. And this goes back to

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my freshman year when I was uh in the student government on the Senate then and um also in the Baker College cabinet. And I remember, I remember we were dealing with Doctor Masterson and in several cases, I can't forget what it was, it was fairly minor

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things, but my impression of him just then was that, that, you know, here is a, an old grouchy, old man. You might say that, you know, in a way he was very nice and yet yet you knew that he, he uh said, well, you know, I'll

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be willing to listen to you. But it, it was, uh I'm afraid and he listened and that was it, you know, and that he really, he really wasn't open minded and that, um, you know, he just certainly wasn't that, that idea of, of what we want

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for a president. He was, uh, you know, to me just, uh, he was a member of the old guard around here and he was part of the old administration in the late fifties and early sixties and, and he was, what we were, were changing from, you

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know, and here the board has elected this man to come back to them. And uh from my viewpoint, Masterson was a good friend of the, a number of members of the board. His family was a part of the Houston establishment and he was just, he was

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a member of the board except he wasn't a businessman, he was a, an uh professor. And, and at that, he, I think he was a fairly second rate teacher and a second rate historian and most of the people in his department will agree to that, that,

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you know, he's just not a, a great historian and not a great man. So that what it seemed to us then was that they were getting this man to, to uh install the old ways of meter nick and to, to uh move the university back to

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where we were and to try to established the good old days of stability. And this was the beginning of the reaction and the board knew that he would do what they told him and that he represented their interest. And I think we in the faculty all

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realized that he didn't represent ours. So this was uh of, of course, a very great con a source of great consternation when we first heard this. And, and also I was very uh disturbed that the committee had been bypassed. And essentially what it looked to me

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like they had done is that they said, well, you know, students and faculty, you can, you can have a committee, you can help us select the president because we want your help. And here they turned right around and just kind of, uh, you know, that they

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just ignored us and they said, well, you know, we'll hope you all had fun playing your games, you know, but now we're going to get down to the real serious business and this isn't any place for you. And this is kind of the way it seemed

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to me, you know, it's just that, that, uh, that they had had, it was just a direct insult to the committee itself because they had and told us, you know, what they were going to do and, and, you know, made us think that we were going

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to have a same selection process. We would have a chance to really, you know, this would be a step in working for our university. You know, so many students and faculty here have really put forth so much time and, and I know, I, and a lot

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of other student leaders around here have put, you have sacrificed grades even to the point, you know, of, of trying to do things for the college and trying to build up the, the university to make things a little better around here. And, and, uh, so we

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were just all bypassed, you know, and the board, it seemed made their own very, uh spontaneous decision, you know, and, and I think that that Masterson was exactly what they wanted. And as soon as they found out that he was going to be in a position

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where he would accept a, a presidency. And, and they said, well, this is just the man we want because as, as it turned out, he was selected in Malcolm Lovett's hospital bedroom. And one day they all decided that Bill Masterson was just a great thing for

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them. It was just about four members of the board. So, uh when this one of the faculty advisory committee was uh making its deliberations, were there ever any rumors going around about uh um people being considered? Did, did you? Yes, I knew, I knew certain, certain

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people who, you know, who were being considered and, and, you know, we had the, the committee itself and had made dossiers on about 60 people and they had presented five of these to the board selection committee and asked them, you know, this is, this is kind

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of the idea of what we want for a president, you know, what do you think of these men? You know, what do you think their qualifications? What do you think of their ideas and, uh, you know, the, the, you know, these were presented to the board

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and, and yet the board never acted on them, you know, the, the selection committee of the board just at, at, uh, ignored them, you know, or I'm, I'm certainly, they, they looked at them but they kind of said, you know, well, this, this isn't at all

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what we want and they just kind of quit, you know, that the uh uh board committee had promised to meet with the faculty student selection committee in December and they had uh cancel that meeting when they said that Herb Allen, one of the members of the

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board committee uh was sick. Although the next day he was handing out words to the rice man and then they said that they would meet with us in January and that meeting was canceled because Malcolm Low had fallen and had, had hurt himself and he was

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uh in the hospital. So this brings us to February and, and they were going to meet again and they never got around to that other meeting. But uh although the board selection committee did manage to meet in, in his, in his hospital room, did the student

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selection committee um uh collect any data on possible applicants or what was their role in this. Uh the student selection was a set up to try to act as a channel for ideas and, and uh suggestions from the whole student body and bring them to the,

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the two members. We elected two members of our own who were going to be on the actual committee itself. And uh as far as, as that matter, when I, I, you know, at lunch and dinner, I would try around sitting around the table, try, uh, to

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create a conversation with the people there and ask them, you know, what they thought the university president should be if they had any ideas. And as it turned out about 80% of the students I think, really didn't care, uh, too much who was selected as president

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of the university or they, they weren't that concerned about it at that time, you know, and not enough to really say, well, you know, I think, you know, to express their views, you know, uh, they may have been interested but, but it was a very minor

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interest, you know, and perhaps they were more interested in eating and that they would rather study or, or work on their grades and they were really participating in, in the selection process and there were a number of, of ideas who, you know, you could get from,

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from a few people in, in every college, you know, who are really interested, you know, and who had taken an interest in the university. And uh this was channeled to our student representatives on, on the faculty student committee. And other than that, we were, we were

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supposed to, you know, help, help the committee in preparing these dossiers. And actually, we didn't do this too much in a way that was uh the fault of the two students on the committee who, who really didn't come back to us too much for, for help,

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you know, I mean, they talked with us and, and it was all informal, you know, and we told them our ideas and, and they conveyed this to the board, but in the actual operation of, of the selection committee, I think that those two students really represented

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fairly well with their ideas, what the students who are really concerned, believed. And I don't think they, there weren't, there were, there really wasn't any opposing view, you know, I don't think there's too many views on this campus that really did want us to go back

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to the old days, you know, I don't think anyone really want that. So that, um, did you think that there was any po, did you think there was very much sentiment on the campus at this time that, uh they thought there was a possibility we might

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go back? No, no. II, I think that, uh, to really understand this, this relationship with the board and everything, to really understand it, you have to be involved in it for a while, because it took me about two years of student government here to, to really

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begin to understand and to grasp what was coming off, you know, and to really scope out the situation and, uh that, that uh a minority of students here really, I think have a, a good grasp on what the whole situation is. Uh, you know, a number

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of them know what they want from university, but I don't think too many of them have really thought about it, you know, and that therefore they're, they're pretty indifferent, you know, you may get a specific case of one course or one professor that, that does something

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to them that they don't like, you know, that, that they don't think is fair. But, but on the whole, to really be interested in, in student government around here, it takes a fairly great effort and you have to give up a few things and therefore there's

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not a great number of people who will do it. And uh that in the past, in all my experience that the student government and the changes around here are carried on the backs of, of a very small percent of students that really, you know, do the

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pushing and that, um, you know, you, you may represent, you know, other, other students and the majority may agree that it's, it's in the best interest of the university and then it's good, but they won't really put forth the effort and this is why that uh

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Greg and Burry who I represented and also George Forestall, who was a graduate student and he was, uh, I knew him and Baker, he was a senior in my freshman year. And uh these people, I think, you know, they, they very well represented the uh ideas

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which had been brought out among a small group of students who had really been interested in the university. And I don't think they really had ideas which were really contrary to anything the, the rest of students wanted. And as it turns out I found out there

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were a few students around here who were, who were fairly conservative and yet, uh, I can get to them later, you know, they were the ones who I, you know, I never had too much respect for and, and most of them I didn't know too well

00:25:54.949 - 00:26:08.130

because I haven't really done anything. They're, they're kind of mediocre students and, and they're fairly innocuous, you know, and, and therefore I don't, I don't pay too much attention to them, you know, which just to say, I, I have certain standards of people I listen to

00:26:08.140 - 00:26:22.939

about ideas about the university, you know, and, and, you know, I've, I have a number of good people who have ideas different to mine and yet they can, they can explain it very well now. Whereas there, there's a, you know, a conservative element which really isn't

00:26:22.949 - 00:26:36.359

present on the campus. You know, just a few people maybe. But on the whole, I think that's how you'd split the, the students, you know, but you didn't think there was any, uh, any general alarm throughout the student body. Uh, I fear that, uh, this, uh,

00:26:36.369 - 00:26:53.670

presidential selection might, might be a return to. No, nobody was really worried about that. They expected it to be an ongoing thing. Well, I, well, I mean, what I mean? Absolutely not. I mean, there wasn't this, you know, conservative, there wasn't a conservative desires among the

00:26:53.680 - 00:27:03.579

students to bring us back. Now, whether there was a fear that I think, uh, when the committee was formed, it was a great deal of skepticism on students saying, well, do you really think they're going to let us have any say in this, you know, how

00:27:03.589 - 00:27:17.609

the board is? And, uh, and then I would say that there was a great deal of skepticism and that, uh, in a way this is one of the things that, that incensed me when they went ahead and selected master and that I had, had spent a

00:27:17.619 - 00:27:27.420

great deal of time and, and kind of gave my own personal word to a number of people saying that, well, I really think, you know, they're going to listen to us and I therefore, I think this committee is worthwhile and I would like to listen to

00:27:27.430 - 00:27:40.310

your ideas, you know, because usually the, when I would, you know, ask people at dinner, what, what their ideas really say, you always think that they're going to listen to us. You know, and I always put my neck out and say, I really think they are,

00:27:40.319 - 00:27:52.859

of course, then when they turn right around and, and, you know, and just, you know, as I told Herbert Allen in his little meeting, you know, before the major meetings, you know, when he first told the committee, uh what had happened that they had selected a

00:27:52.869 - 00:28:08.130

president, you know, I told him, I felt like a sucker, which is, I guess, a fairly good description of how I felt, you know, and just that, uh, you know, we'd, we'd been led to understand one thing and they turned around and done the other and

00:28:09.510 - 00:28:26.239

I don't think they had really plan it that way. Uh I don't, judging by the reactions of, of the people after it all started, I would say that the board didn't, didn't think that that in giving us a say in the selection of a president that

00:28:26.300 - 00:28:35.680

they didn't think it was a very important thing, you know, and it was something like, well, if we have a man, we'll, we'll put through, we'll go ahead and just bypass these people and they won't mind, you know, I mean, they, they make a plan a

00:28:35.689 - 00:28:50.609

little bit but they won't really mind, you know, they underestimated uh a personal feeling in this, you know, there is a certain amount of of integrity that you, you have to maintain of all of the people that were considered, uh, who would have been your, uh,

00:28:50.760 - 00:29:06.660

your choice for the man who, um, your opinion was best qualified to, uh, director R for the next few years. Uh, I think to pick one man, I, I couldn't, I couldn't tell you one man who I was hoping for. I just hadn't thought that much

00:29:06.670 - 00:29:24.160

about any one person. There are people like, like Martin Meyerson, who is the president of the State University of New York. Uh, and Ramsey Clark from what I know of him, he was going to be available even at that time. You know, to me it was,

00:29:24.170 - 00:29:49.280

it was very impressive, uh, as, as far as specific people go, I hadn't thought about, you know, saying, well, he would really be good, you know. But, um, I think that, that, that the idea was fairly, was fairly stable, you know, they didn't solidified within my

00:29:49.290 - 00:30:04.400

mind, you know, of what kind of person I wanted, uh, as far as who was really available. And, uh, you know, who, who might accept it was something that, that we had to find out and do a lot of research on. And this is what the

00:30:04.410 - 00:30:20.030

committee was trying to do in preparing the dossiers, was find out who was really prepared. And, uh, do you have any opinions about William JG operations? Uh, he was, I mean, he was one who, who I don't, I don't know that much about him really. Uh,

00:30:20.040 - 00:30:33.280

I read, you know, a few things and he was, uh, uh, you and, and all this and, and, uh, you know, certainly from what I know about him, he seemed to be pretty good but I couldn't say that, that I thought he was good because I

00:30:33.290 - 00:30:47.140

really hadn't, I really hadn't researched into him that much, you know, and that I do know, uh, quite a bit about Myerson and Ramsey Clark. And this is why I can give you these two specific names. But I really can't say I can't give you any

00:30:47.150 - 00:31:04.079

other specific name just because it to, you know, before committing myself, I'd have to satisfy myself, you know, a lot of questions and I can't do that with any anyone else really who I really thought about. You mentioned just a moment ago, this, uh, this meeting

00:31:04.089 - 00:31:14.760

that we had with Herbert Allen. Why don't we start with that? And this was, I guess this is where the action really started as far as the events that went on. I knew that that morning we had the rumor had been going around and it had

00:31:14.770 - 00:31:26.599

been over the radio that M Masterson had been chosen as President for Rice. And of course, you know, I told you my feelings on all this, you know, what would happen if they, you know, this, this seems like something that the board might really do, you

00:31:26.609 - 00:31:41.939

know, they really would blow it bad, you know, and, and just go ahead and try something like that. And, uh, so an emergency meeting was called, they said that, you know, we would meet in, uh, in the space science building in a room at, at 330

00:31:41.949 - 00:31:54.569

in the afternoon. And, uh, so, you know, I, I wasn't sure but I figured that's what had happened. And so I went to that meeting and uh got into the room and there were a lot of students around the room and they would only let the

00:31:54.579 - 00:32:10.239

students who were directly involved with it, get, get into the room. And so we, we went on in there and there were the college presidents and the, um S A and, and the members of the committee and uh the faculty members of the selection committee and

00:32:10.250 - 00:32:25.619

from the board there was Teague and Allen. Yes, I think that's, that's, that's all, that's all that were there and there was mcanany and a few of the other administration here, but they were all part of the, you know, the workings there and workings. And so

00:32:25.770 - 00:32:38.920

the general atmosphere of course was, I would look around to my friends and, uh, you know, who we work with all this, you know, and, and we just kind of had a very disgusted look on her face, you know, and, and, uh you know, to be

00:32:38.930 - 00:32:49.060

quite honest, I was just really very insensitive the board, you know, at this time, just because there are these men who had tried to do this to us because I knew that's what they were going to do. So Herbert Allen got up and at this time,

00:32:49.069 - 00:33:10.420

he was, I don't think he realized the sentiment that was uh there. And so he in his fairly awkward way, just informed us that the board had decided to select William Masterson as a president and that there are reasons for choosing him or that he was

00:33:10.430 - 00:33:24.010

uh uh he would help. He was well known in the Houston community and he stressed this and that a good president had to be a, a, you know, a fundraiser and that he would certainly William Masterson could do this. And he was uh he, he was

00:33:24.020 - 00:33:40.430

glad to see that rice now could choose one of its own. And this seemed to be his key phrase, uh which would, to me imply that, that, that they thought that rice was good, was good enough now to where they could choose one of their own.

00:33:40.439 - 00:33:54.359

I don't know if this was a line he was giving us, you know, that, that this was one way of trying to mollify us with the decision of what, but he seemed very sincere and explaining this to us. And uh was this the first time he

00:33:54.369 - 00:34:08.310

hadn't made the announcement to anyone or had he made it this, this was the, this was the first announcement and it was really public. But see, it had gotten out before then in the chain of papers and in the Houston papers that he had been selected.

00:34:10.169 - 00:34:25.530

And, uh, so Allen had announced this to us. And then, right then my thoughts were that, that just a month previously, Malcolm Lovett had had talked to Doctor Bronson and he said that one of the things that, you know, I was very encouraged after that little

00:34:25.639 - 00:34:37.459

interview that, uh, Lovett had with Bronson because he had said that the board did not feel that the president had to be a fundraiser that the board could take care of this and that, uh, they didn't want someone from public office, you know, and we were

00:34:37.469 - 00:34:50.840

kind of afraid they were going to get a big name like Johnson or somebody and had told Levi had told, had told, and this was rel to us by our committee that, uh, that he didn't need to be a fundraiser. And that, uh, you know, and

00:34:50.850 - 00:35:02.979

he gave us, you know, a few, few little qualifications that we were very encouraged to see. You know, we thought that, well, maybe they're, you know, maybe they, they aren't, their ideas aren't quite as different as we thought, you know. But then here her gets up

00:35:02.989 - 00:35:15.889

and says that, you know, you stress the Houston community and of course, this is completely contrary to what we want rice to be a national university. You know, and, and I think they would like to have rice, you know, although they want to be a national

00:35:15.899 - 00:35:31.030

university, uh, their sphere seems to be fairly limited to this part of the country. Let me ask you something. Do you, uh, on the basis of your working with the board in your junior year? And then also, uh, this experience, do you have any reason to

00:35:31.040 - 00:35:48.330

believe there might be a, uh, some basic disagreements between Lovitt and Allen? Uh, of course, now, I never, we never have worked with the board. The board has always remained aloof from the university in the past. Uh, as far as disagreements with Alan and others. Uh,

00:35:49.830 - 00:36:04.169

I think that, that my impression of Herbert Allen before all this started was that he was probably the most liberal of any, any people on the board as far as, uh, being interested in students went. And, uh, and yet, you know, I, I really think he

00:36:04.179 - 00:36:16.000

was sincere in his interest and yet still as a result of all this, we see how far away he really is, you know, in the district that's been saying that he's, he's liberal just relative to the rest of the board. And that Malcolm Lovett to me

00:36:16.010 - 00:36:38.760

is, um, almost, uh, paranoid. Well, I don't know if I, I couldn't say paranoid but, um, his idea of the university is, is that you just keep it the way it is and that you know, uh, that, uh, his images is, you know, certainly the, the

00:36:38.770 - 00:36:55.219

epitome of the old guard, if not worse, you know, his is really, really bad and a t, uh, I have almost no respect for him but, I mean, he's a businessman and, you know, not even, not even a great businessman and, uh, that's incidentally kind of

00:36:55.229 - 00:37:06.909

true of a lot of these people on the board is that, that they're not even the top businessmen in the community because they are. So, it seems to be narrow minded that they're, they're even behind in their businesses as far as the really, you know, being

00:37:06.919 - 00:37:30.659

AAA good corporation goes. But that's really important really. Uh But that, uh I love it now. I think they may disagree, you know, and that, that, uh it, it ii I can't, you know, I couldn't explain it because it's, it's, I'm sure it's live, it's personal

00:37:31.300 - 00:37:47.649

and uh my main source of information has been from, from various professors. Kind of my, my little great mind that I've managed to create here, you know, getting the rumors and everything into me and, and that, that, uh Allen and love it. I think they do,

00:37:47.659 - 00:38:05.310

they do disagree but it's not anything violent or open and that their ideas compared to ours may be fairly similar, you know, that they may, they may be different but compared to the difference between them and us, you know, it's not too great. Uh So, I

00:38:05.320 - 00:38:21.909

don't, I don't really feel that they, uh, that there's any great resentment among them, although I couldn't say for sure because it, with these people, if there were, it would be more personal and, and more what, what, what they did then, uh, maybe their ideas on

00:38:21.919 - 00:38:36.649

the university, they wouldn't let their ideas on the university get in the way of, of their relationship on the board. So, back to this meeting, um what uh what took place after this was the announcement and, and then he kind of, uh we said, uh I,

00:38:36.669 - 00:38:53.250

I don't remember if you asked for questions, I don't think you did. Uh or maybe you said, well, do you all, you know, how do you all approve of the appointment? And then five minutes, it had become very evident to him that there was great hostility

00:38:53.260 - 00:39:20.820

toward him. There was just, I believe it was Barry Kaplan. And then, then either I spoke or I think I spoke next, I asked him a question and I said, uh uh I, I just asked him, he said that, uh Masterson, you, you'd mentioned that Masterson

00:39:20.830 - 00:39:33.320

was very outstanding in the Houston community. Now, does this mean that you, you don't think that, uh is this, does this mean that you were considering rice to be, uh uh you know, kind of constricted to just this area of the country, you know, and, and

00:39:33.530 - 00:39:44.340

Allen just stumbled around and didn't really answer the question. But he, he just said that, well, you know, most of our money does come from Houston and therefore we need to have, uh, went back to his money raising theme that, you know, therefore he is good

00:39:44.350 - 00:39:57.820

at raising money within Houston, you know, and did anyone bring up at this meeting to Herbert Island? The fact that Lovett had earlier told a member of the committee, the chair? No, no, I don't think that was mentioned at the time as I remember. And what

00:39:57.909 - 00:40:12.560

did say he was at this meeting, wasn't he? Yeah, he didn't say much. He, in fact his position there, I think he was, he more feared that we would do something to Herbert Allen and, and Teague than uh I mean, he was afraid that we would

00:40:12.570 - 00:40:27.350

really insult him and just get, you know, maybe not, if not physically hostile, you know, at least very verbally hostile to him. And so he was, uh he kinda, I don't remember exactly what it was, but I think he just said, well, uh their decision has

00:40:27.360 - 00:40:42.570

been made and, and, uh you know, uh we'll have to see what happens from here. You know, he was, he didn't, he didn't take a, a leading stand at all. I mean, he was just sitting against the wall and he was fairly quiet who had the

00:40:42.590 - 00:40:54.580

most to hope. But among the faculty members there, the faculty didn't say too much students took care of everything very well. I mean, the students were the ones who, uh, students around here just, you know, now just aren't afraid to speak out, you know. No, I

00:40:54.590 - 00:41:09.110

don't care whether it's Herbert Allen or who, I mean, we think, uh, they don't intimidate us maybe because we don't have anything to lose, you know. But, uh, anyway, this was Herbie Allen had, had, you know, finished his speech and, and we just kind of directed

00:41:09.120 - 00:41:23.229

these questions at him and I told him, I felt like a sucker, you know, and, and, uh, he told me he thought I was overreacting, uh, told you that, that Allen told me t, didn't speak. He just kind of sit back there and, and looked, my,

00:41:23.239 - 00:41:37.760

my impression at the time was, he looked fairly senile, but I wasn't the one to, to, you know, that was maybe I was a little bit prejudiced at the time. But, uh, within 10 minutes, I think Harian was kind of standing up and he just kind

00:41:37.770 - 00:41:47.699

of, it kind of looked like the kid who had broken the cookie jar and he just kind of hung his head down and said, well, I'm, I'm sorry, you all like this. I really think you're reacting. But, um, perhaps we screwed it by not consulting the

00:41:47.709 - 00:42:00.949

committee first. But, and he, he said that, you know, I think we screwed it. But, um, uh, with the decision has been made and I hope you will accept the decision of the board, you know. And so I think it was fairly obvious to all of

00:42:00.959 - 00:42:13.439

us, you know, where we stood at the time. And, and so we left me lasted maybe 2025 minutes because he had to get to the faculty meeting where it was going to be officially announced to the faculty. And then we had a student association meeting at

00:42:13.449 - 00:42:25.219

four o'clock in the afternoon, Although I didn't know about it at the time until I got there at the meeting. And it was called very hastily within, I think it was called about two o'clock and it was called just by people running through the college halls

00:42:25.229 - 00:42:39.949

and, and the interns saying that there would be a student association meeting. So that uh after that initial meeting with Alan, you know, I think we all, we all knew where we stood, uh Dean Pfeiffer was there and, and I respect him very much and I'm

00:42:39.959 - 00:42:54.520

really good friends with him and e you know, I asked him what he thought and he, you know, he, he wasn't going to take a, he wasn't going to come out and say, you know, he thought it was terrible or bad. But, but I could tell,

00:42:54.530 - 00:43:08.260

you know, in, in his own way that he obviously didn't like it. And, you know, he, he knew what had happened. You know, he's intelligent enough to know what we've been. He put all his names. Yes, he, he, he recognized the significance of it. So, students

00:43:08.270 - 00:43:21.810

head to the physics amphitheater for the S A meeting and the fact and Allen head to the Kim lecture hall. And uh so I went on into the physics amphitheater and I was very surprised to find that I guess 400 people were there. If not more,

00:43:21.820 - 00:43:32.310

I would say, I would say between 404 150 people were there, you know, and this to get this many live students in one place at one time for something like this on such short notice, it's almost impossible, you know, and I was very encouraged to see

00:43:32.320 - 00:43:47.199

that enough students were upset about it to, to take off, you know, on a Friday afternoon and come to the meeting. And so at this meeting, uh Warren, uh you know, assumed the leadership of the meeting and uh he did a very good, you know, a

00:43:47.209 - 00:44:03.979

very good job because Warren is a, uh have you seen a man or talk to him? Well, he's a, he's a very good leader, you know, and uh uh he's, uh you know, his, just his physical presence and his voice, uh make him a very good

00:44:03.989 - 00:44:19.080

leader, you know, and, and so, uh you know, that he didn't say too much in the meeting, you know, but, but yet I think, you know, you, you had a, you know, you had some leadership there and then of course, you had the college presidents who,

00:44:19.399 - 00:44:41.209

who, uh, about, I would say half a dozen people burying Ray Watkins who was on the committee and Jim B and myself and, uh, I forget who else spoke. But, you know, we each kind of just talk to the students, you know, and, and, uh, you

00:44:41.219 - 00:44:56.560

know, the sentiment was all fairly unanimous, I think. And, uh, at this time, uh, it was pretty much in the leader's hands, I think, because what we said at that meeting, I think would, would have affected what students did. Because if we'd said, well, you know,

00:44:56.570 - 00:45:09.370

what can we do? Most of the students would have gone home. And if we'd said, well, you know, let's, let's, you know, like we did, let's do something then, then the students were willing to go along. And, uh, uh, I think Aunt Penny Johnson also spoke

00:45:09.629 - 00:45:28.540

and, uh, she was, she's a member of the SDS here and a very intelligent girl. And, uh, and I think someone else from the SDS spoke and, uh, Caro and Kendrick, who was with the group also spoke and I think they kind of implied saying, well,

00:45:28.939 - 00:45:40.310

they're gonna have a press conference tomorrow at 12. Uh, why don't we meet him there? And I think they were kind of implying that we might, you know, she didn't say that things would get rough, but I kind of felt that this is what they were

00:45:40.320 - 00:45:56.459

suggesting. You know, is that we would make a very, uh, vocal demonstration at the least. And what happened from there, I'm, I'm not sure, you know, but, but our SDS, although they won't take the initiative, I think they would, they would like to have seen something

00:45:56.469 - 00:46:12.929

blow up on the campus. But, um, this bothered me and, and then when I just kind of gave my, a little talk, I just said that, you know, we, we're operating on, uh that, that, you know, what really happened here is that ideals have been violated

00:46:13.159 - 00:46:31.310

and that, that, you know, that we have, we have, it's our integrity really that, that's been insulted and that, that the due process has been violated and that we can, I think we can, you know, achieve something with this uh in our protest, you know, if

00:46:31.320 - 00:46:43.979

we keep it on a high level, but it's very important that we keep it on a high level and that, that remain uh on the, on the ideals on the ideological nature and, and, you know, you know, on exactly what has happened on the due process

00:46:43.989 - 00:46:56.810

has been violated and that, that uh our trust has been violated by the board and that if we keep it on this, I think that, you know, we'll keep the faculty with us and that, that we will have a good, good case because I think it

00:46:56.820 - 00:47:12.560

was all fairly obvious that we did and uh other people, you know, he made some, just some very good talks, you know, Jim Bonney, I think, had a, a good short speech, you know, and, and that, uh I forget specifically what he said, but it was

00:47:12.570 - 00:47:29.530

just, you know, generally, you know, this is, this is what's happened to us and, and he mentioned it from uh uh the viewpoint that, you know, that, you know, we, we need, we, we were gonna have to do something, you know, if we're gonna have a

00:47:29.540 - 00:47:44.919

university, you know, this is important, important point in the university. And so this went on and it was agreed to hold a general essay meeting. You want to call an essay meeting, uh for, uh in the gym that next morning. And, uh, there would be a

00:47:44.929 - 00:47:59.750

teach in, uh originally, the plans were to have a teach in at 10 and an essay meeting and the quadrangle at 12. So we could go over and meet the, uh press conference as, you know, as it came out at least be seen by the press,

00:48:00.120 - 00:48:11.219

uh, as it finally turned out when the plans were finally made, we would have a, an essay meeting, uh, where you'd have a kind of teaching where, you know, just, you know, those professors gave their speeches at 10 o'clock in the gym that morning, then we

00:48:11.229 - 00:48:26.000

would march or move 10 or 11 or something like that. I forget the exact time. But anyway, whose idea was it? To wear coats and ties. How did that come up? That, that I don't think you can say was, was one idea. I know that, uh,

00:48:27.330 - 00:48:40.270

I was, I was, I went over to college meeting at hands at about 1030 that night and it was suggested that we wear coats and ties, but that they had been, uh, announced on KL before then, you know, everyone should wear coats and ties and, and

00:48:40.280 - 00:48:54.219

of course, this was just in line with, with what we really should do. I mean, I think that, that so many of the, the ideas for what we were not individual, you know, that the, the, the interesting thing throughout this whole, uh, crisis was that there

00:48:54.229 - 00:49:06.840

never was too much of a question of what to do next. Uh, in a way, I think we all know, we all knew how to, uh, what, what steps it would go through, but we kind of had to go through those anyway, you know, you had

00:49:06.850 - 00:49:17.600

to first file petitions and then have them refused and then you had to, uh, make a, a bow to the student body and a student association meeting and present that and have it refused. And then, you know, you had to do all these things, we all

00:49:17.610 - 00:49:30.669

knew what was gonna happen and you had to go through it, you know, because in a way it was due process and, and, uh, this is the, you know, that that's the, that was the best way to get it done. Uh, but the coats and ties

00:49:30.679 - 00:49:48.310

were not mentioned at that first meeting, but it was kind of just general, you know, I, I can't say this specific, uh, uh, source because I know some people have said that this one person at hand and I forget who it was, suggested it. Uh, but,

00:49:49.969 - 00:50:02.320

uh, I'd heard it before then, you know, when it was announced on C and uh so that I don't, I'm not sure who really thought of it. I think, you know, I, I would imagine 100 people could have had the idea and someone started said it

00:50:02.330 - 00:50:13.810

first, you know, so it'd be hard to trace it. It was, you know, if you're gonna make it a protest, we, we just knew we didn't want to have a uh a rabble protest, you know, we, we maintain it on high plane. In other words, you

00:50:13.820 - 00:50:28.429

know, this was, you know, what, you know, this, this is the way we knew we had to, to carry it out. And I don't think there was really any disagreement among the student leaders, the established student leaders and how I do this, you know, SDS may

00:50:28.439 - 00:50:42.850

have won something a little bit different. But they fortunately saw that if they had, had taken a official role in it, that they probably would have have, have turned away from it. So they just kind of kept quiet which was, you know, very, very good from

00:50:42.860 - 00:50:57.959

our point of view, you know, when there's a specific reference made in any of these speeches, uh, to the fact that, uh, uh, that you wanted to avoid making the kind of presentation that had been made by other student bodies and other colleges recently. That was

00:50:57.969 - 00:51:10.439

it, or was this just in the back of everybody's mind too? That was in the back of everybody's mind. None of us wanted to tear the place down or to have the violence, you know, because we just r students just aren't that way or too conservative.

00:51:11.350 - 00:51:28.850

And, uh also at this meeting, uh, Dean Pfeiffer spoke and, uh, he just kind of cautioned us, you know, and, and said that, well, you know, whatever, whatever you do don't do something that will, will hurt your cause because, you know, you, you have a good

00:51:28.860 - 00:51:46.060

cause and, and just without being able to remember exactly what he said, uh he essentially what, what he he implied was that, you know, you know, go along and do what you want, you know, let's don't tear anything up. You know, I'm not gonna stand in

00:51:46.070 - 00:51:59.699

there, you know, he didn't, he didn't stand up and say, you know, if any violence is created, then we'll have to take disciplinary actions. Uh Somebody asked him the question, that's what started it was. They asked him, uh uh does the university intend to take any

00:51:59.709 - 00:52:19.320

discipline against demonstrations and he said that, you know, uh, but as I think you said, don't, uh, don't do the wrong thing for the right reason. Mhm. And, uh, this toy implied that he was, you know, on our side I think we, we knew where he

00:52:19.330 - 00:52:36.469

stood and, uh, but of course, you know, he and no one else wanted the violence or anything that might happen in such a protest. But, you know, he was there and, and, you know, he, he could have said, you know, don't, you know, don't do this,

00:52:36.479 - 00:52:53.300

you know, but he didn't. And uh of course, doctor, I have a great amount of respect for Doctor Pfeifer because he, as a result of, of being tried to pressure into cracking down on the students, he's now resigned and uh and although it's not official and

00:52:53.310 - 00:53:04.419

that is the reason that, that he did resign. So they wanted to get talk with the students and, and he didn't want to do it. And the man is, you know, he's in a very tough situation. I, I really respect him for the way he's handled

00:53:04.429 - 00:53:16.629

it, you know, and in that particular case, he, he kind of stayed out with his dance students and he was a member of the faculty. As he said, I saw I'm a Baker Baker Sunday night and he just said, well, I'm a faculty member in this

00:53:17.709 - 00:53:34.260

and, you know, that was, you know, good to hear that he was gonna do this anyway. So that meeting broke up and, uh, we all decided to march to the Kim lecture hall and wait for the faculty to get through their meeting. And so we waited

00:53:34.270 - 00:53:50.229

out there for about 20 minutes and, uh, Mary Watkins was in the door and she was in, you know, kind of announcing what happened and told us about the faculty to faculty votes, you know, what happened. And, and uh uh when you say Barry Watkins, is

00:53:50.239 - 00:54:08.899

this Barry Kaplan? Oh yeah, Barry Kaplan, that, that's Barry Watkins Kaplan. OK. And uh so, uh you know, finally the announcement was made that, uh you know, the faculty had voted to uh you know, in protest of the whole thing and a cheer went up from

00:54:08.909 - 00:54:18.820

the students and, and it was very ironic, you know, I guess it's my sense of history, but at that time, the whole day had been raining just at that time, the, the sun came out from below the, from below the clouds as it was saying, you

00:54:18.830 - 00:54:31.810

know, and this was all very symbolic, you know, so, so symbolic. It was really funny. And uh uh and then about five minutes later, the faculty started coming out and they just came out to the applause of all the students who were about, I guess 250

00:54:31.820 - 00:54:44.340

students around the Kim lecture hall. What was your reaction, the action taken by the uh by the faculty we were just very glad to see that they were with us and that, uh I knew that if we were going to really accomplish anything, the students and

00:54:44.350 - 00:54:55.699

faculty had to go together, we couldn't lose the faculty. And this was, this was very vital and, and yet here we saw that the faculty was, you know, with us and as it turns out, I think they were a little bit more rle than perhaps we

00:54:55.709 - 00:55:09.729

were. But, uh, they came out to the applause of, of all the people, you know, and, and they're as the faculty members who have been favorites of students, you know, who have been liberal and who have spoken out, uh, came out, you know, they got a

00:55:09.739 - 00:55:22.560

little more and, uh, it was kind of ironic that, uh, I was saying on this, uh, uh, standing off off the sidewalk on the grass, uh, leading between the cheer hall and the library and, you know, some of the faculty were walking through, you know, and,

00:55:22.850 - 00:55:38.290

and as Doctor Vandenberg came through, there was a general hiss, you know, as he came through, uh, you know, maybe as a foreboding of what was, you know, an ironic foreboding of what was to come, you know. But, uh, uh, anyway, you know, he, he was

00:55:38.300 - 00:55:59.020

hissed, uh, goodbye, you know, a few students, you know, and people knew and, uh, uh, so that, that broke up meeting and we went back and, and ate dinner on the colleges and, uh, it was, you know, the atmosphere is something that, that you just, you

00:55:59.030 - 00:56:11.360

know, haven't had around here, you know, since I've been here. You know, is it, everyone was interested in it? Everyone was talking about it. Uh, everyone was very involved in it, you know, or if, if not directly involved, at least they were concerned, you know, and,

00:56:11.449 - 00:56:25.429

and they knew something was happening and they were willing to participate in it. So, uh but there's just a, a kind of spirit, you know, that you don't have around here, but it was, it was there nevertheless, you know, suddenly the, the student body had solidified

00:56:25.610 - 00:56:48.929

behind one thing. And uh so, uh we had a, but we had a college meeting that evening uh after dinner and, and things are just generally discussed. Uh Let's see, I don't think it was immediately after dinner. I think it, we wait, we wait a little

00:56:48.939 - 00:57:04.030

while and uh this, this is all still pre yes. And this is the student leaders got up and everybody kinda told them what had happened, you know, and kept everybody informed of what happened and tell our, our feelings on, you know, and, and like, uh on

00:57:04.040 - 00:57:15.129

that first day, there were some of our, our more conservative members in the, in the student. But, you know, you know, my friends who, we were kind of surprised, you know, like one of them said, you know, try, I never have seen you like this. You

00:57:15.139 - 00:57:24.209

know, why, why are you so upset? You know, I didn't like you, you know, and so I, you know, I told him, well, you know, I think this is pretty important and it turns out this, this guy eventually came over, you know, and this was, I

00:57:24.219 - 00:57:39.610

think the fact that, that, you know, so many of the, the student leaders, you know, who, who I think are, are, are respected around here were, were adamant about the situation that, that, that did a lot in bringing the rest of the student body over. And,

00:57:39.629 - 00:57:52.090

uh, so after the, after the Codine, we got some paper and we made a few signs of, you know, we, we were going to try just, you know, that there was an atmosphere that you had to create. It was, you know, at least it was there,

00:57:52.100 - 00:58:05.379

but you had to formalize it. And, you know, like, uh we wrote something like, uh education without trust is impossible or something like that. And we hung that up on the physics building. You know, this is, this is just one of the little things that they

00:58:05.389 - 00:58:21.250

put them all together and it, it does stimulate the atmosphere, you know, and uh 1030 that night, I went over to Hanson for their college meeting and there were about 250 people there and, and it was just, uh the college presidents, most of the college presidents

00:58:21.260 - 00:58:39.189

were there and, and Warren and, and Barry and some of the others and, and in all these meetings, you know, uh everything was just kind of discussed, you know, and, and ideas were repeated and yet it was, you know, everything was kept alive. So formal final

00:58:39.199 - 00:58:57.209

plans were made for the uh uh S A meeting to be held that next morning. And, uh Warren asked myself and Jim B to come over to the essay office at eight o'clock Saturday morning to help write a press release. Uh And so for that, uh

00:58:57.219 - 00:59:11.000

I went back to my room and, and I wrote up a, a draft and you may have the, the first press release that we had when it was 12 pm Saturday over that morning, we, we changed and that was gonna be the first press release and,

00:59:11.449 - 00:59:30.370

and effectively, it, it uh it stated the initial position and it was not against the man, it was against the method by which he was chosen. It was very idealistic. He said, you know, our ideals have been violated, the trust has been um um betrayed and

00:59:30.379 - 00:59:45.149

it was all, you know, it, it was kind of the, the first step in the movement. And I think at this time, you know, just to say now that, that all this excitement wouldn't have been as great if it had been someone good. But people who

00:59:45.159 - 00:59:59.310

knew Masterson just, you know, he just wasn't the man. And, uh, and so therefore that was one of the reasons for all this, all this bigger. And, uh, we all knew that it would eventually be against the man, but yet we really couldn't oppose the man,

00:59:59.320 - 01:00:11.479

you know, on, on, on grounds, you know, and that, that we really had to start, you know, maybe, maybe he's not that bad, you know, I wasn't, I was, I wasn't positive and I was pretty sure that mattress want what we wanted, but, but just the

01:00:11.489 - 01:00:27.760

fact that due process had been violated was, you know, enough to, to keep us, uh, going. What did you understand? Um, the, uh, the ultimate goal to be at this point where, uh were you consciously working toward, uh, getting his reservation, getting the decision reversed? I

01:00:27.770 - 01:00:45.939

think it was the, the goal, I wasn't real optimistic about it, but yet somehow, you know, maybe it's hard to explain, but I spent the next four days doing nothing else. So, obviously, I must have been some, some way optimistic, you know, or at least enough,

01:00:45.949 - 01:00:57.510

uh, panicked. Well, I don't know if I was panicked about it but, you know, just interesting enough to, to go to all this trouble, you know, and all these people that, you know, we put forth all this effort on it. So, so obviously, we must have

01:00:57.520 - 01:01:11.550

thought we had some, some hope. Did the student leaders talk uh consciously about? Uh uh, well, you know, this goal and then what step short of that? Uh, no, I think it was, that, that was that goal and that was what we were all shooting for

01:01:11.560 - 01:01:26.070

and, and no one really said, well, this probably ain't gonna work, you know, and, and, uh, certainly, and I wasn't any more sure that it wasn't gonna work than I was that, that it would work. And, uh, you know, as long as there was his chance,

01:01:26.080 - 01:01:42.280

I was still gonna be willing to try. But anyway, uh that, that, that, that press release was our first statement of, of position, our first official statement. And, um after that, we went on over to the, to the gym, you know, and I was very happy

01:01:42.290 - 01:01:58.270

to see, I would guess between 12 and 1500 students and faculty were there. And uh before we'd had this convocation for the re evaluation of the undergraduate curriculum, they, they called an all school meeting in December. And at this almost, I guess about 15 people, 100

01:01:58.280 - 01:02:10.739

people came to this, you know, and this was really surprising to see this many r students who would, you know, put, put forth the effort to go to this meeting, you know, and, and, uh so I was, you know, very happy to see r students that,

01:02:10.750 - 01:02:28.530

you know, again taking that interest and, and showing up in the meeting. And so we had about 10, 10 speeches, you know, mostly faculty who had presented them and, uh, most of them were against Masterson, you know, and one casting it was, it was very pro

01:02:28.540 - 01:02:44.820

establishment oriented. He spoke out in favor of him and it was all very democratic nearby was in their coats and ties and dressed up and, uh, the reporters were there and, you know, it was all this and it ran very smoothly and we had the vote

01:02:45.149 - 01:02:57.729

and, uh, you know, of course, you know, the vote came out, this was the vote also was 951 to 7. You know, it was the, the same resolution, you know, that we don't improve the way he was chosen to ask the uh reconsider their, their uh

01:02:59.209 - 01:03:20.030

um opinion was it. And uh so after that, we organized the march and went by corn house and, and uh you know, obviously it was impressive just to see that many r students there. And, and uh then we stood in front of the front of at

01:03:20.040 - 01:03:36.290

home on the lawn. And uh so we milled around there for about 45 minutes to an hour while certain professors had groups around him. And we're kind of, you know, just doing talks, you know, and uh did they have the bull horns out at this time

01:03:36.300 - 01:03:53.870

or was this just uh yeah, they had bull horns, two bull horns and uh gradually people started going out for lunch. So that by about one o'clock, there were maybe 250 people around there. This was the time which Masterson came out. And so he came out

01:03:54.330 - 01:04:06.139

and he, you know, was, was treated cordially by the, by the crowd and he got an applause as he came up. And so he got a bull horn and stood up in front of it hall and, and said, you know, the first thing you wanted to

01:04:06.149 - 01:04:21.790

do was restore communication. And, uh, and, uh, you know, he gave a very, very poor talk, you know, as far as accomplishing anything, it was about all I think Masterson was capable of. But the, you know, he gave his little Southern talk and he, he started

01:04:21.800 - 01:04:38.080

off the conversation with some, some joke. I don't know what it was. But anyway, it was, you know, really bad, you know. And, uh, so that lasted me three or four minutes and then students started asking them questions and, uh, you know, they're very direct questions,

01:04:38.090 - 01:04:53.370

you know, due process was violated. You know, what do you think of that? So, he said, well, you know, if the board's product of choosing when they want and he just dodged the questions and it became very, you know, it became apparent very rapidly that, that

01:04:53.379 - 01:05:09.590

his idea of communication was one way and, and we'll go by the book as long as it's my book and uh his, his answers just weren't satisfactory. And here was a man who, you know, I don't think you realize the opposition to him. Uh Well, in

01:05:09.600 - 01:05:22.649

fact, I remember ask him a question that in view of all this opposition to him, did, did he still feel that he could accept the position? And he said that thus far, he hadn't seen any real opposition, you know, this was after the march and he

01:05:22.659 - 01:05:37.449

had all these people around, you know, and, and so what do you do when the man says something like that? You know, how do you count for that statement? Uh Just, it, it fits in with, with my image of master and the man is just narrow

01:05:37.459 - 01:05:53.610

minded and his, his view of, of the university hierarchy as you know, president up here, students, family down here, you know, what, what do you think he thought those students were there for, to welcome him? Well, I don't think that he really wanted to admit it.

01:05:53.620 - 01:06:04.840

Uh Maybe, maybe he did think that they were there to welcome him. You know, I'm not really sure what, you know, obviously, you know, he couldn't have thought they were there to welcome him after, after the initial questions, you know, and, and by the time he

01:06:04.850 - 01:06:21.770

was asked that question, uh you know, there's, you know, you know, anyone could see that there was opposition, you know, but I think, you know, it just kind of like the man filled his arm saying, well, I don't see it, you know, you're right there. In

01:06:21.780 - 01:06:39.719

front of his nose, but he says, I don't see it, you know, and, uh, that is probably, you know, that is my opinion of Masterson that he's talking about who, you know, see something he doesn't like. And he, you know, when you get to be 55

01:06:39.729 - 01:06:56.929

set in your ways and things like that and, uh, then he went off and so it was at this point that he went to the meetings with the college presidents and s A officers in the committee. And, uh, my roommate was, and I didn't go to

01:06:56.939 - 01:07:10.100

that meeting, you know, I was one of those and, uh, President Baker lives across the hall from me. And of course, I talked to other people and just my general impression after all that was that the master and pretty much perform the way that I thought

01:07:10.110 - 01:07:23.409

he would, you know, and that he had just, you know, I understand first and he had the students believing that he really was interested in restoring communication. But when it came really down to two specifics, you know, he just, yeah, he said, well, you know, I'm,

01:07:23.419 - 01:07:44.020

I'm, you know, I, I really, you know, of course, I want to talk to students, you know, but I'm gonna do what I want, which isn't our idea of talking. So, you know, they talked all through the evening and, uh, uh, that the Sunday morning then,

01:07:44.030 - 01:08:01.550

of course it was, he was disposing with the committee and, and, uh, he called Warren and said, well, I'm going to go back to Chattanooga. I'll be back sometime in spring and left. So that I think, you know, of course, solidified any, any doubt whatsoever. And

01:08:01.560 - 01:08:18.100

that it was very important because we'd start off the day before on, on the ideals. And here we see that mattress and operating in the, in the university was not willing to go by due process. And we saw how he reacted to, to opposition to, to

01:08:18.109 - 01:08:34.149

ideas, you know, to the suggestion that he wasn't right. And now you can impose Masterson because you could see that the process by which he was chosen was wrong. And now you can see that the man being placed in the environment of the university himself is

01:08:34.160 - 01:08:54.208

wrong. And this was very important that not, you know, it was very important that we not oppose Masterson at first because you couldn't really logically justify that opposition since very few people really knew him. But now that he had performed for students, uh and everyone had

01:08:54.219 - 01:09:10.040

seen what the man was lying, you could oppose the man and it did fit in very well, you know, to our opposition. So, uh you know, I I just think it, it at this time and the start if the board, uh you know, as evidence, the

01:09:10.049 - 01:09:25.279

board and Masterson really don't realize what's going on in the university. If the board had wanted to get Masterson in, as president, they could have done it very easily and they could have waited until the summer appoint him. There would have been grumbling over the summer

01:09:25.459 - 01:09:40.490

and when students came back to school, but he would be president and there wouldn't be any, you know, he would be here and anyone, anyone who was really, uh, who really had any cognizance of what was going on here in the university could have told you

01:09:40.500 - 01:09:53.738

that. And then, you know, he could have, the board, could have gotten mattress in it very easily. And in fact, I think that that even once they had a point, Masterson and he came here and after, after his press conference that if he had used his

01:09:53.749 - 01:10:12.919

hand, he could have solved the situation. And yet, I don't think I've, I've seen any man who has performed more adverse to his own interest, you know, although he didn't see it that way, you know, he didn't recognize it. Uh, you really have done a worse

01:10:12.930 - 01:10:25.600

job when yet, yet Masterson managed to do it. You know, he really, he really blew it. You know, he did a good job of blowing it because he, you know, he could have, he could have salvaged it. Then we talked to the student language, but he

01:10:25.609 - 01:10:39.939

didn't. So, uh, you just a moment ago that when he, uh, left, he did, I understand you correctly to say that he told Warren scare, that he was going back to Chattanooga and he'd be back sometime sometime in the spring and, and to us this was

01:10:39.950 - 01:10:57.009

his idea of communication, you know, so that, that, that solidified the whole, the whole thing. Now we could oppose Masterson, uh, and the president's came out with their statement in a press release at 11 o'clock in the afternoon that they now find that Masterson is not

01:10:57.020 - 01:11:14.649

acceptable as president of Rice University. And, uh the afternoon, my activities primarily were spent, uh trying to get the faculty organized because I have a number of friends on the faculty and people I know and what's, what was holding us back is the faculty were all

01:11:14.660 - 01:11:33.390

running around shaking their hands and yet they really hadn't taken any concerted action. And, uh, so this was very disturbing to us but, uh, we weren't, you know, this, it's, it's so hard to get these men uh organized because they are far more independent, you know,

01:11:33.399 - 01:11:53.180

of one other than students are. And, uh, you contact the afternoon. Who? Yeah, who did you call? Well, all the Baker associates, we have about 15 or 16 of those been contacted and, uh I talked primarily with them and, you know, I can, I can give

01:11:53.189 - 01:12:08.350

you their names but there, there's so many and, you know, and they were all, it was just all good to see all these men uh opposed, you know, and, and, and what was really impressive at this time was that the faculty and students were really united

01:12:08.359 - 01:12:19.720

and you never have felt quite so close to the faculty. You know, we've had associates in the college, you know, and, and of course, I'm, you know, I've developed a number of friendships with them which, you know, isn't the average for, uh, you know, a lot

01:12:19.729 - 01:12:34.549

of students who go through here and, and I really need a professor informally and yet at, at those college meetings that were held on Sunday, um we had one Sunday night, you know, and you and the faculty were together, you know, and you really felt like

01:12:34.560 - 01:12:49.129

a friend of your associates of the faculty. And, and so I guess I must have talked maybe between 3040 faculty members who I had known, you know, and, and knew at that time and just trying to tell them to get organized, you know, and, and like

01:12:49.140 - 01:13:00.060

I talked to Mr Gruber who's Master Hanson, I'm taking this course and he was a Baker associate last year and we were good friends and, and, uh, and he said, yeah, I know it, you know, and there's not too much we can do in the master's

01:13:00.069 - 01:13:16.859

work we're meeting and, and, uh about that afternoon, it seemed that finally the faculty was beginning to get organized on a departmental basis, you know, the departments were holding means and deciding what to do. And, uh so it continued through the evening, we had a Baker,

01:13:16.870 - 01:13:31.069

a college meeting Baker late that evening. And, uh, just, you know, everything was recapped and students were updated on what happened and Bach was there and we had a, uh, Dan Gordon who was acting president of the university at the time and also Baker's associate was

01:13:31.080 - 01:13:47.250

there. And, uh, again, you know, just everything was, we knew where we were, we knew what had to be done. Uh, although at this point, we were kind of running out of things to do because we were going to have to escalate, you know, something else

01:13:47.259 - 01:14:02.899

had to be done. We had, we had refused it. And, uh, and of course, we've been ignored. So, you know, it's kind of a question of what do you do from there? Perhaps you're not quite sure what to do and this is where the ESS A

01:14:02.910 - 01:14:14.899

and, and colleges and everybody, you know, we kept putting out material and, and then they started putting out press releases, you know, organizing the press communications and, and went through all this activity, you know, it was just a vast amount of work, you know, and sending

01:14:14.910 - 01:14:34.600

out letters to alums and to the rice associates trying to explain what we were doing and we, uh, took these packets to each of the board members and, and, ah, it explain our situation, uh, looking at from a, you know, from an overall perspective, all these

01:14:34.609 - 01:14:52.290

activities were fairly unimportant and, and absolute scale because they didn't, they didn't really in themselves accomplish anything. But what they did do was keep the atmosphere up. And, uh, so it was decided to hold the referendum, the poll for students and faculty. Uh, this was on

01:14:52.299 - 01:15:11.950

Tuesday or was it Monday? I can't remember. I think the vote was, the vote was on Monday. And, uh, so everyone voted, you know, and there wasn't too much else to do really Because as far as escalation went, you know, if, if he didn't resign, there

01:15:11.959 - 01:15:29.229

wasn't anything else you could really do. You know, the faculty could threaten to resign. And yet, oh, almost all the faculty really agreed to stay there and invited. And this is one of the things that impressed me that a number of our young young faculty members

01:15:29.240 - 01:15:43.540

were, uh, you know, their, their careers, at least at Rice were on the line. You know, almost any, any faculty member here can get a job someplace else, you know, if he wants it, you know, any time he wants it. But, uh, they knew their careers

01:15:43.549 - 01:15:59.750

at Rice were on the line like Dr Baker of Geology, uh, who was an associate Baker, you know, and he was very adamant in this and he, hey, uh, he said, you know, that he knew that, that, you know, the future of life was at stake,

01:15:59.759 - 01:16:12.919

you know, and all these people were willing to, to stake their careers on, you know, and either they were gonna get rid of Masterson and, and try to continue university or else, you know, it wasn't, we were staying because I think everyone realized what was going

01:16:12.930 - 01:16:26.259

to happen to the university became, you know, what the, what the trend was. Did anyone suggest this time that the vote might be used as an escalation that uh it might be presented to Doctor Masterson privately with the idea that if he didn't take the right

01:16:26.270 - 01:16:43.040

action, uh or maybe the level, but if he didn't take the right action, they'd make it public. Uh No, we, we knew that, uh you know, the bo the student Association, you know, it was, that itself wasn't convincing, you know, just we, we had half the

01:16:43.049 - 01:16:57.720

student association there and took a vote. But that was, that in itself wasn't convincing. So we had to have a democratic secret ballot uh of all the people and this with this Ding Gordon could go Ding Gordon Warren. We go to the board and say, well,

01:16:57.729 - 01:17:17.290

look, here's the feeling. Now, what are you going to do about it? And this is in effect what they did and these results were, were given to Masterson. And uh as I understand he made, he made his decision on this basis to resign. And, uh the

01:17:17.299 - 01:17:28.060

general feeling of the board is that you let us down, you know, because they were quite willing to stay and fight because they didn't care. You know, they were going to have their way and they didn't realize what it was doing at the university. They could,

01:17:28.490 - 01:17:48.220

they could lose some professors, you know, but they're just employees so you can hire them back. Good university, like rash is better than one. Well, they like to think that. But, uh, anyway, I mean, but we, you know, as, you know, from, from what I've done

01:17:48.330 - 01:17:59.160

in the student government here and working for something and, and what the number of the faculty, you know, the hopes they have for us, you know, this is their future, you know, they have more to lose and, and other student leaders around here. I think we

01:17:59.169 - 01:18:12.259

all know that, you know, that rice was a steak right here, you know, and it was all very obvious, maybe that was what, what was the source of all of our, you know, the, the resulted in all this, you know, this is what happened. But uh

01:18:13.049 - 01:18:38.350

he resigned and uh we were hoping the board would learn something from it. Uh Unfortunately, as it turns out now the reactionary measures are, are greater and, uh, you know, like we may not say the university as it turns out because certainly random. He's in a

01:18:38.359 - 01:18:55.919

line with masters and I'm a little bit smarter. He knows, he knows what to do a little bit better. Uh, but, you know, there's just this, this fear now that I have that, that the border is beginning to crack down, you know, they, they got rid

01:18:55.930 - 01:19:15.870

of Pfeiffer and they didn't get rid of him, but he resigned and, and they were going to take away some of his authority and let him be responsible for traffic tickets. And, uh, they're getting worried about the, um, as I understand they're, they're, they're next year

01:19:15.879 - 01:19:31.459

they may, they may start trying to revise the, uh, open house and liquor regulations to make them more reason to make them more restrictive. Although this is, I've had a rumor from two different positions. And so I don't, I don't put that very high value until

01:19:31.470 - 01:19:45.160

I get a little more information on it. But, you know, it, it is just a rumor at this time but you, you can just see how the board was reacting, you know, with the Charlie Freeman case where a man like Mr Teague will uh say that

01:19:45.169 - 01:20:03.330

he thinks that uh well, Negros are good athletes anyway. And then he thinks we gotta get some bass bey *** here. And uh you know, what do you do? Uh this is the way that people think and, and this is very depressing to the student leaders,

01:20:03.339 - 01:20:18.209

you know, put all of our time and effort on this and, and uh see it all go, go for almost not, you know, the student leaders have done this magnificent job uh mobilizing opinion on this. Uh Do you think that they could mobilize an effort to

01:20:18.220 - 01:20:40.939

change the attitudes on the border. Well, it's a different, uh, it's a whole different situation. You see that the opinion here on, on campus during the master in crisis was, was unanimous. And uh the fact that we have such good student government and it was so

01:20:40.950 - 01:20:58.830

well organized, enabled us to react. And yet, you know, the opinion was formed by the student leaders and yet it wasn't, you know, why students aren't led very easily. So, it was something that they felt, it was just the leaders that kind of prodded people into

01:20:58.839 - 01:21:13.129

action and keeping up with it. Whereas with the board, you know, for all of our efforts of public relations and for all of our material that we printed and sent out, uh, we didn't, we didn't really, uh, communicate our position with the outside world. You know,

01:21:13.140 - 01:21:30.109

the Post, of course, was the Hobby Press and that was, you know, completely, uh, still the news, you know, it was obviously changed. I mean, you know, no one can doubt that, you know, it's unfortunate to see a, a newspaper, you know, with the influence that

01:21:30.120 - 01:21:48.319

the Post would have. It's so, you know, they're, they're, you know, that, that just, that ain't right. You know, the way they, they slant the news to their own interest. Uh, and, uh, yet as far as the board goes, you know, we're not going to change

01:21:48.330 - 01:22:04.459

their opinions. I mean, they're in a whole different world and although we can try to explain to them what the university is, I don't think that, I don't think we're gonna reach them and that, uh, it's, it's, uh, you know, it's all to me, you know,

01:22:04.470 - 01:22:22.029

it's very, it's very depressing to see that, that, that the board is like this and that after all this trouble that you might think they would, would learn that, that, you know, that they're just not, they're missing something here on campus. But, um, they, I don't

01:22:22.040 - 01:22:37.479

think they, they recognize that. I think maybe they're just looking at their wounds and they're, they're getting ready for revenge. Ok. Uh, so, you know, with a man like, like Malcolm Lovett, you know, I don't know him. So it's just a completely an impression but he's

01:22:37.490 - 01:22:55.240

the type of man who, who I, I think would, you know, would hold a grudge and who would, you know, who would really like to, to get, even with somebody Herbert Allen. I don't, I don't think it quite like that but, uh, you know, it's very,

01:22:55.250 - 01:23:16.259

very great. What would it take to, uh, uh, to restructure the board? Just, uh, uh, you're gonna have to get people on it. A businessman like Stanley Marcus, you know, somebody who had, who knows something other than business. Now, you know, there's no way that you

01:23:16.270 - 01:23:35.220

can, you know, legally they're right. And so there's not anything we can really do. Can you get faculty or student representation on the board that they never would. I see no hope whatsoever they ever to that. Now, our main hope is getting a president who can

01:23:35.229 - 01:23:47.500

communicate with the board and who can, you know, who, who, who like pitcher was doing, you know, could begin to convince him, you know, I think that, you know, he had him convinced and they have, they didn't realize what all he had done until they kind

01:23:47.509 - 01:24:00.580

of took a look around and maybe this is why the reaction was so strong. But uh that our, I think our main hope is in a really good president. You know, this is why it's so important, you know, this is why from the story, it was

01:24:00.589 - 01:24:26.779

so important knowing all that, you know, now who would you like to be uh who would you like to see the president? And I haven't checked. This is tape four side one, a continuation of the interview with um Charles Myers. OK. Charles, we were just discussing

01:24:26.790 - 01:24:40.859

uh um whether you thought uh there'd be any uh anything to be gained by uh having representation on the board. Uh Well, yeah, I just said, you just said the president, it's up to the president. I mean, we're not gonna get any students on the board

01:24:40.870 - 01:25:00.660

and we have any family on the board because they uh they wanna control things. But I think that using a little, a little maneuvering and AAA smart precedent that we can accomplish a lot like fitr did. And that, uh, you know, that, that actually we have

01:25:00.669 - 01:25:13.040

an education process with the board bound. I don't know how, well it's gonna go over with them. And, uh, you say you have an education, well, you educate the board. Yes. But, uh, you know, I'm not, I think, I don't think you're gonna learn. I think

01:25:13.049 - 01:25:35.359

they're too set in their ways about what the, their idea of the university is. Oh, just generally about the, the whole situation. Uh you are after, you know, after being in student government for all this time and, and been on the center for three years and,

01:25:35.529 - 01:25:47.379

and doing all this work, you know, it's kind of normal work in a way, a lot of the things we do, you know, like SCP reports and student discount services and things like this, you know, there's a lot of work to it, you know, and there's

01:25:47.390 - 01:26:00.919

some good but there's still a lot, I can only work to it, you know, and, and um it was very graph on to see that, that, you know, students could, there, there was this unity that I really, I wasn't sure that it was there, you know,

01:26:00.930 - 01:26:14.709

because uh so much of what student government has done around here has been done by a few people, you know, and the rest have been very apathetic, you know, it's the general complaint around license apathetic people and yet, uh so many people did, you know, become

01:26:14.720 - 01:26:26.319

involved in this. It was, you know, it was, it was good to see that uh that all this and this work we've done, just maintain the structure of student government has actually paid off because I think that, you know, if we didn't have a strong student

01:26:26.330 - 01:26:42.040

government, we couldn't have done anything and that it was the respect student government has among the faculty and among the students that, you know, you know, it helped us a great deal and, uh, we had all, all this time, you know, I don't, I don't think

01:26:42.049 - 01:27:01.450

that we really did anything that was, uh, opposed to very many students opinions that we may have had, uh, half the university voted, you know, went to S A meeting and to me that's very good, just because you can count that, that the other, you know,

01:27:01.459 - 01:27:19.189

of the remaining group, probably 75% were apathetic and only a very, very small number I think were really, you know, in favor of masters and are opposed to, to students doing anything. And, uh, we have some, some students on the campus who, you know, they just,

01:27:19.200 - 01:27:34.620

they choose to not participate and they're, to me they seem to be very selfish. I mean, they're here to, to get their degree and, you know, they don't think students are having to say anything and, and, uh, these are the, these are the knock and los

01:27:34.629 - 01:27:50.450

next year I get, uh, you know, in the future, I guess. But anyway, it's like, like Paul Malloy who, uh, was quoted in the Houston paper and this is, you know, as the news is manipulated, this is the most non represents student who probably went on

01:27:50.459 - 01:28:06.609

the campus. Uh, I don't know if you've talked to him yet but, but, uh, I really didn't, didn't know who he was before all this started. Uh, other than, than this was, you know, a person who I didn't know too much about, you know, it kinda

01:28:06.620 - 01:28:23.350

seemed a little weird but then I never make impressions like that. But, but then, uh, he was quoted saying that, well, this is just the same group that, that, uh, doesn't like, you know, that, that demonstrates against everything that goes on here, you know, here's 1000

01:28:23.359 - 01:28:36.930

people and of course, you know, that never happens at rice. You know, there's just not that the same group is always so small in almost anything, you know, and, and he was just, you know, very inaccurate and, and it, it hurt, you know, it really, it's,

01:28:36.939 - 01:28:54.500

it's very discouraging to see, uh, students who won't, won't even, you know, recognize the situation or who won't even know who's so, either selfish or, or apathetic. I don't know what it is, you know, they just refuse to admit that, that, that you can, you know,

01:28:54.509 - 01:29:09.529

something can be done, you know, and that that what we're doing is maybe worthwhile. And, uh he just, no, he's actually, he was a minor character in the whole thing and yet he got quoted in the post on the front page, you know, and, and this

01:29:09.540 - 01:29:20.419

is the one that made all the readers feel good, you know, with some students saying, well, this is just a small group that, you know, it's always complaining about everything, you know, it's half the university, you know, and over half the faculty and as you know,

01:29:20.430 - 01:29:39.410

as it turns out, I'm sure that probably in the student bo 80% of the students and probably 85% of the faculty oppose masters in. But uh you know, just, and it's kind of discoing to see people like this. There's not, you know, it doesn't hurt anything

01:29:39.419 - 01:29:55.680

really. I guess it makes it interesting. Did I understand you correctly that to say that that probably about 85% of the students, about 80% of the faculty. Now, is it based on that last, is on the last poll? Now, this is uh an estimate. But uh

01:29:57.759 - 01:30:12.930

I put it together from a number of sources, you know, that I can kinda from my various ends of the grapevine that I can collect and put all this together. And I think it's a within, within 10% it's very accurate. So that, uh you know, I

01:30:12.939 - 01:30:34.020

think, I think that was a pretty good estimate between of those voting between 80 to 90% of the students opposed him and about 85% of the faculty. So it was about, about that divide. Did you ever hear, uh, how many students in all voted? Uh, the

01:30:34.029 - 01:30:56.890

results of those polls were supposed to be sacred and uh even the point of how many voted? Well, yeah, I assume that that is secret. But, uh I think you can, can estimate that maybe 1530 g between, I guess about 15 would be a good estimate,

01:30:57.089 - 01:31:16.890

give or take to 200. And uh and of course, almost all the faculty and that's out of a total of uh in, in nearly 100 100 gras, I think. And of course, that's more than we've ever had to vote in an election for that. I guess.

01:31:16.899 - 01:31:36.310

It's, it's about all I can think of right now. One thing I'd be interested in getting, getting, getting your ideas on, um um you mentioned earlier that the students started out being so apathetic and um then they began to get involved. Uh Could you elaborate on

01:31:36.319 - 01:31:49.370

your, your experience in this a little bit? You mentioned earlier that there, for instance, in uh in Baker College, there was a fellow who uh uh asked you, uh when brought up and then he had been very conservative, but he swung over eventually to, uh, well,

01:31:49.379 - 01:32:08.750

the majority this from, from what I collapsed is that, that uh we work so hard, like to get the course review, we just get, it's a student committee on educational policy. And every year, uh, we put out a 350 page course review, you know. And, uh,

01:32:08.759 - 01:32:26.060

in the past few years it was a statistical survey we'd mail out, uh, four page questionnaires to, uh, uh, students and they would be compiled and, and, you know, you, you'd have a, you know, was statistically done where you could have a, a, the general profile,

01:32:26.319 - 01:32:41.259

want a profile of opinion in the course. And then you had essays written on each course. And this was really very valuable to, uh, uh, the faculty used it a lot to, uh change their courses and see how students liked it. You know, it's a good

01:32:41.270 - 01:32:57.669

way to learn what courses you want to take. And yet, uh, so many students didn't even bother to fill out these forms, you know, here they have the opportunity to, to, you know, to help others, you know, it's taking an hour to fill out these forms

01:32:57.680 - 01:33:12.750

for all your courses and, uh, they didn't do it. And this is the true of, of so many things, you know, I've been trying to do and, and others have been trying to do in student government, you know, trying to build a TV room over in

01:33:12.759 - 01:33:29.390

Baker College, you know, and how many people can you get to help you? You know, there are 20 people watching TV, you go in there and start work and everyone leaves and, uh, you know, this is, it's kind of, you know, disappointing because, you know, I

01:33:29.399 - 01:33:46.160

guess maybe people are more selfish than I am or, or maybe they don't get as interested in, in a, in a project or something. But, you know, they are apathetic as, as far as really taking efforts to, to try and make the situation a little bit

01:33:46.169 - 01:34:03.990

better. And uh this was, you know, this is one reason why, you know, if you can get this many students doing something. Well, I think it's very important, you know, it, it always indicates that, you know, how the uh student body views the, the situation, the

01:34:04.000 - 01:34:23.939

importance it assigns to it. This is uh you know, this, this, this I think is a very good indicator. Do you recall any specific instances that uh stand out, especially in your mind of people whose attitudes changed as a result of the uh the events who

01:34:23.950 - 01:34:44.950

started out uh maybe indifferent um uh as things progressed they became um uh I don't know, diligent workers in the calls. No, actually, I don't think we have any more diligent workers. Uh And why uh this year we've had less actual work being done on these

01:34:44.959 - 01:35:05.839

little projects. You know, we uh the student discount service wasn't continued and the skep wasn't done this year because the, the guy just, you know, didn't wanna do it he's too lazy. Um, you know, and, uh, you know, I just, during this time when all these

01:35:05.850 - 01:35:17.810

people were, you know, you'd have 20 people up in the USA office working on, on, you know, logging only stuff, you know, typing or writing off Migra sheets or addressing envelopes or something. You know, if you could just harsh this energy each year, you know, for,

01:35:17.819 - 01:35:30.250

for two or three days, you know, look at the things you can do and yet we can't do it. So that I think we kinda woke up and stuck our head up for a while now, you know, going back down to sleep. It's, it's nice to

01:35:30.259 - 01:35:49.680

know that the spirit lies there underneath, you know, when you really have to have a chin count, but it takes a lot to wake it up. This word you're using the gnome work is this gno ma gnome. Uh It, it's one of the rices gnome work

01:35:49.790 - 01:36:09.660

means just, it's uh well, well, our janitors around here are called gnome, uh which comes from the uh I get done and, and the uh early 17th century English that you had the gnomes and, you know, and, and mythology and, and spelled gnome. And so we

01:36:09.669 - 01:36:24.990

just call them gnome and, and uh this is pretty much what the jazz resort is. You know, most of them are Mexicans and they just kinda get always, you know, you never see, you know, who run, you know, pick everything up, you, everything you need. You

01:36:25.029 - 01:36:49.089

know. And, uh, anyway that you only work is just kind of trivial work. But, uh, the way I was, I was kind of disappointed because, uh, you know, I've, I've been good friends with a number of the people in student government in the past and, uh,

01:36:51.100 - 01:37:00.689

you know, we've done a lot of work and, and when you leave it, you know, when you, when you go away from it, my, my friend last year was president student by here, you know, and did a lot of work trying to keep all of it

01:37:00.700 - 01:37:16.750

going, you know, and it's a full effort just to do that. But, uh, you know, perhaps two years from now I'll look back on all my efforts and it will be fairly unimportant. I will be kind of a, a stupid, you know, a stupid kid to

01:37:16.759 - 01:37:27.720

try to spend all my time doing this and yet I really learned a lot from it and I've gotten so much from it, you know, that on an overall scale, I've gotten more from that than I have from a lot of my courses and that, that,

01:37:28.589 - 01:37:49.970

you know, although I've, I've sacrificed some grades, uh, I've gotten an education which is, uh, you know, to me is, is very valuable. But, uh, that, you know, my, that all this has been a great experience for me in, in student government. And, uh, I was

01:37:49.979 - 01:38:09.990

kind of disappointed this year that, that it hadn't been, you know, contained that to me. Well, it's, uh, I already gets warrant for a president. See, and, and my approach to student government was that these things, you know, help because when you fight for a course

01:38:10.000 - 01:38:25.669

evaluation and that you want the right for students to participate on university decision making that you have to go through the, the little administrative procedures to, to implement these ideas. And because of this, I, I formed a student discount service and everything and they hadn't been

01:38:25.680 - 01:38:40.970

continued this year, you know, and it just been dropped, you know, and all that work would be gone for nothing now. Uh, so good, you know, I was, I was very disappointed, you know, in, in student government before all this happened. Uh, you know, I've kind

01:38:40.979 - 01:38:56.310

of gotten, well, let's say mellowed in, in my old age or something. And, uh, and yet, you know, I, I will say that, you know, I think Warren did a very good job of leadership. You know, he's a cranky administrator as far as student government goes

01:38:56.319 - 01:39:12.189

yet. He's, he is a leader, you know, and I will, you know, certainly, certainly think he did a good job in it. I think the college presidents, uh, you know, just as leaders, you know, and as, as maintained in respect of their uh college members that,

01:39:12.200 - 01:39:28.120

that they did a very good job in and that, you know, it, it was gratifying to see that we were a community really. But, uh, there is something there that, that, that's underlying, you know, and just because it doesn't always show itself, uh, doesn't mean that

01:39:28.129 - 01:39:40.310

it's not good because we know that it's there and I will, I don't know, you know, I, I'm, I'm ready to leave rice now. You know, it's a nice place to visit and, uh, I don't see a whole lot of hope for it uh in the

01:39:40.470 - 01:40:01.600

immediate future, the only, the only hope for it is to get a really good precedent. Uh Otherwise we're gonna be on the threshold of greatness. And this one girl mentioned another stop on the Azalea trail. Uh but, you know, it, it does have a great potential,

01:40:01.609 - 01:40:14.419

you know, and, and now I'm kind of looking forward to going to, to a part of the country where there's civilization seeing what, what a university is like there. And then maybe I can see what, you know, I can get an overview of what rice was,

01:40:15.000 - 01:40:29.350

but most of the people who have, have been here in life, my good friends whose judgments is and I respect, you know, rice is a, in other words, the Wall Street Journal, it's a small Southern conservative school and, and that is what it's gonna be for

01:40:29.359 - 01:40:46.089

a while until someone wakes up. But at least we know we did our part to, to try to delay that for a while. We'll just have to see what the future brings. Has this experience, uh, this four day weekend of the presidential selection crisis. Has this,

01:40:46.100 - 01:40:59.990

uh, radicalized you or do you find your attitudes about the same now? Well, no, it, in a way it, it, it, I wouldn't call it radicalize me. But, but I'm, I'm not really a conservative or I'm not liberal. I'm kind of stuck in the middle and,

01:41:00.189 - 01:41:16.729

and don't even wanna try to classify my ideas. But, uh, it's, I've learned something about newspapers that now I don't believe what I read in the newspapers. I, except for, for some of the national magazines, maybe the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal who,

01:41:16.740 - 01:41:31.009

who I, I think I can still respect, you know, the Houston Post, you know. Well, I, you know, I don't have any respect for them. The Chronicle, I'm sure mens the news the same way, you know, it's very discouraging because when you read about, and you

01:41:31.020 - 01:41:43.390

read in the paper of, uh, like the, the Valley news down the valley, uh, had a headlines rise during the riot. So, I mean, what do you do if that's your major source of information? You just can't believe it, you know, in a way it's very

01:41:43.399 - 01:42:02.279

discouraging to, to know I might have got in the world and it's gonna be so hard for me to get any real information about what's happening. And also, uh, I see the value of demonstrations and, and although I, I recognize the value before I can, you

01:42:02.290 - 01:42:17.839

know, in organizing one and then, and molding opinion, uh, it was very valuable for me just to see how, you know, how it can be done, how it was done. And I don't think opinion wasn't really molded as much as it was just, people were, people

01:42:17.850 - 01:42:36.410

were kicked in the ass and made you really uh express their feelings for once, you know, which is something that hadn't been done around here. And uh that, you know, I think I've, I've learned a lot from and it's, you know, and just again, you know,

01:42:36.419 - 01:42:50.859

my relation with the faculty was very good before that so that it hasn't changed this much, but it was good to see that coalition form and then at least the coalition reveal itself and has been here. And I think that b the student relations will be

01:42:50.870 - 01:43:04.870

much better as a result of it. Um But unfortunately, we still have the board and that's the great nemesis of us all. So as uh as far as a challenge to the power structure is concerned, the, we feel the power structure one and it likely to

01:43:04.879 - 01:43:23.549

remain in the c well, yeah, the power structure hasn't, you know, we, we didn't reach it. They still meet downtown. They still don't come on campus very often and they, they still wanna have high sat averages and uh it's, it just, I guess this has impressed

01:43:23.560 - 01:43:44.089

me about what an almost hopeless battle it is to try to educate the board, you know, and, and almost, you know, when I get out it, it may be worth it to try to two, you know, 30 years from now when we, you know, Taylor work

01:43:44.100 - 01:43:56.950

for the takeover of the rice board of trustees, which is, I think is probably impossible and not worth it. And what frightens me more is that I'm going to business school, you know, which, which, you know, I see how my ideas are now and I wonder

01:43:56.959 - 01:44:06.129

if I'm gonna be one of these dodgy old men 30 years from now, you know, and if I am, I'm, you know, I don't know if that's what I wanna do, you know, it's a, it's a fear I have almost, I wanna be very defensive for

01:44:06.140 - 01:44:24.379

the rest of my life now. Uh of getting two locked up in the business hierarchy and in the business world and not, not being concerned about what really is, is going on in the university. It, I mean, it's, it's helped me personally just because I see

01:44:24.390 - 01:44:43.149

what a businessman can be like. And it's very frightening. That's not what I want. So you can learn from negative examples as well. You know, I it's, it was a, it was a good experience. I'm glad that I could go through something like this before I

01:44:43.160 - 01:45:02.180

left Rice because I'm afraid I would have left it with, was still vague uncertain notions. And now I think it, it helped to solidify some ideas. Certainly. I can't say they were all positive but, but at least solidify them in terms, I think you have given

01:45:02.189 - 01:45:13.580

us an excellent interview and I really appreciate you coming down here on a Saturday morning, uh, middle of the exam week. Uh, uh, when you're graduating, are you through with all your exams? You still, you still have another one. But, uh, you know, at this stage

01:45:13.589 - 01:45:28.100

of the game it doesn't matter anyway. So I think you showed amazing insights for young men your age and I, I really, really appreciate your, uh, uh, I help you in that way. Be sure to call me. You know, if I think of anything else inside

01:45:28.109 - 01:45:39.669

I'll try to communicate to you in some way or something. But, uh, I, that's my initial impressions. Thank you very much. The time is now 1110.