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See, this is Poly MRE. Today is uh May 8th, 1969. Uh This is interview number 18, Mr Buford Alexander tape five side one setting. 780 time is 125 in the afternoon. Now, be good. Uh Why don't you just read me your address and let me check

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this microphone setting. Ok. Buford Alexander USA WC box 438, Carlile Barracks, Pennsylvania 17013. All right. Thank you. Well, we were talking informally just a moment ago. Um, uh sort of getting acquainted and giving you an idea of what we're after in this project. I mentioned that,

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uh beside your, your recollections of your own activities during the four days, say between Friday and Tuesday. Uh We'd like to get a background on um what attitudes you brought to bear on on this issue since you're a junior here. That means you would have been,

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you would not have been here when Masterson was here. Uh No, I wasn't not at all. Let me ask you this. What was your impression? What was your reaction when you first heard that? Uh Kenneth pitcher had resigned, for instance, my first reaction when, uh, well,

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let me tell you where I, I heard about the resignation first. It was after I had returned to Rice uh, during freshman week. Uh I had, I'm not exactly sure when the resignation occurred. Uh And uh I was informed at that time by a couple of

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my friends and my reaction was just mainly that I hated to see him go because, uh although an undergraduate student really, for the most part, doesn't have the opportunity to get to know the university president. You, you do kind of feel the effects of his administration

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on things like uh well, especially for us, things like open house and the liquor policy that had been established uh under President Fitzer and uh things affecting undergraduate life like that. And then also from just faculty members, uh descriptions of the man and from students that

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have met them in, you get an impression and all the impressions I'd gotten were very favorable. And so I was kind of disappointed although I could understand why he was going back to California since it is his home. Did you um were you active at all

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in um the um discussions of uh of a new president versus when the faculty advisory committee was formed and the student committee uh was invited to be formed. Uh uh only to the extent that I was on the uh diet of will rice and the diet

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interviewed our representative to the student committee. And actually we had some pretty lengthy discussions during those, uh, um, interviews and, and I guess some of the major things were that were brought out were mainly the idea that, that most of the students seem to feel that

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we wanted a president who would, uh, uh cut down on what may be. I'm not sure if it is the mythical one third, one third, one third ratio of Houston people, Texas people and out of state people for admissions. Because I think a lot of the,

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the students, especially out of state students like myself, uh would like to see more out of state students brought into the university to, to give it a wider background than just Texas. And uh during these discussions, the diet and with the various people who are applying

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for the position, that seemed to be something that was universally held by everyone. Uh We didn't discuss things like the fundraising role of the president or something like that, that much at all, what we were concerned with and mainly what would be his attitudes towards the

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undergraduates quite naturally. Um Well, how many people did you interview for this? Um uh over at uh will rise, we interviewed three and uh all three of them were, were quite excellent. I, I thought uh the guy we finally selected was one that, that did, as

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a matter of fact, keep harping on this idea of the, the out of state people who was selected from John. John. He was on the 11 man undergraduate student committee, but he was not selected for the faculty student presidential selection committee. I'm not sure that I've

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heard his name before. Uh I, I uh I think we wanna have a chance to talk with him. Do you know whether he'll be back next year or does he graduate this year? He'll be next year? The uh people who interviewed for this, uh, are, are

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they, did they self volunteer or? Yes. Yes, very much. Uh, there was a certain amount of recruiting in the sense that we went out and asked people we thought would be good if, if they would uh be interested. And uh, some of them said, yes, one

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of them did and I can't remember who it was right now and then, but most of the others felt they didn't have the time that would be required to put into. But you did interview three and all from the, the rice, right? This is for the

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Will Rice representative to, to the committee. OK. So, uh, did you maintain any contact with this uh uh committee? Um, as well? We didn't, we didn't maintain that much contact. Um, we kind of picked the guy and then, and then let him operate on their own.

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Really? Uh, I know that, that John went around and talked to a few people in the college. I didn't talk to him very much on it. Uh I really, until this thing broke loose I didn't have that big a role in, in uh anything concerning presidential

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selection. I would just uh mainly just ask, uh, people I knew who were on the committee, especially Greg White, who's a friend of mine, how things were going. And he would say, well, we have certain so and so many applications and uh suggestions for, for uh

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presidents in, we're compiling the dossiers and everything and, and uh that would be the extent really of, of anything that uh we discussed. Did you have any uh names that you suggested? Uh No, I sure didn't. I didn't suggest any. I'm not too sure how many

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were suggested from the college either. I think just a few. Did you talk to anyone who had any strong feelings about it and who had uh suggested some names? Uh I know that, that there were people who had feelings, say that that someone like uh uh

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well, I heard Dean Gordon's name brought up uh repeatedly by the past president of Will rise Tom Plant who had dealings with him, who thought that he, although Dean Gordon is not maybe a dynamic speaker that, that he would be a good president. He, he tended

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to favor him. Now, whether or not he suggested the name, I don't know. But uh otherwise there weren't too many specific suggestions. There was a, a big rumor floating around about Lyndon Johnson that had everyone scared for a while. That was, that was about the extent

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of the personal names. And did you hear any other, uh, names suggested? Uh, uh, did the rumor mail have any other names uh going around or the, uh presidential selection? No, no. The only one that I can recall right now is, is, uh, is President Johnson.

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And then, well, possibly, I think some people thought that again, the Dean Gordon might be since he was selected as, as the, to be on the, actually just the executive committee. And there weren't really too many rumors flying around except the big ones like that. Otherwise,

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I think things kind of stay pretty, pretty well quiet. Did this seem to be a subject of much interest around? Was it talked up very much at dinner, dinner time or? I don't think it was really, uh, I, I really think that, that most of the

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people knew who they didn't want as president or something and, and they would, they would talk about him maybe. But, uh, uh, that was about the limit of it. Uh, I think there was some curiosity in who they would finally select and I think most of

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the students felt really that, that with the appointment of this committee, that, well, the attitude was that, that the committee would suggest a name to the board and that the board probably wouldn't find the guy objectionable and that's how the president would be selected in other

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words, there was a great faith in the committee itself to actually come up with the man as opposed to, I think maybe the board saw it from the standpoint of them coming up with the man and then going to the committee and asking the committee's opinion

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on it. But, uh most of the students seem to feel it was, it was the committee was, was the thing that was actually selecting the board would just kind of rubber stamp it. That that's the way it was done, prevailing attitude. Did you ever hear Mason

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name in, in relation to this? Uh I, there's one interesting thing that I can recall that I, someone picked up a copy of the Sally Port, which was the uh I think that's the name of the Alumni magazine and Masterson had just been selected president of

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something, the Alumni Assoc Association or something. I'm, I'm not exactly sure. But anyway, his picture was on the, on the page uh front page and it said Masterson selected president and someone told me that he saw the alumni magazine with a thing that Masterson had been

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selected president of the university. This was all say in October. So, and I said, oh, well, that's interesting. I didn't know much about the man except that he was a history professor and that he had been master of one of the colleges and I talked to

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one of our resident associates, uh Doctor Cut present who and mentioned that to him that, that, that uh someone had told me that masters had been selected. He thought that it was an excellent choice and I didn't know too much about the band at that time.

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My feelings were that because he had been on the faculty at rise and because he had been a master of the co of a residential college and dean of humanities. And in a way because he was uh a humanities man instead of a, a science man,

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I thought that maybe it would be a good thing for the university uh to, I don't know, I, I personally feel see that the university should be broadened up to a wider uh type thing to become a university instead of an institute and to pick up

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more uh departments along humanities and the arts, things of this nature. Uh But I really, I didn't think about it too long. I mean, the, the rumor was dispelled very quickly. And so these were just kind of my first reactions not knowing the man at all

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or just from the appearance of things. Had you uh heard anything about Masterson as far as strengths or weaknesses as an administrator or as a uh as a scholar? Well, uh do you mean prior to all of uh say February of this year? I had heard

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quite a bit about him in his say, administration of, of Hanson College and uh most of it was on the negative side really, uh from just students who tell me that, that when Masterson was, was master of the college, that there was a ruling clique over

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there in, in Hanson, uh, many of the students were cut out from the action and, and a lot of them resented that and a lot of them didn't like Masterson simply because he was well, too strict on him and, and wouldn't give him the, uh, uh,

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sometimes is lenient and open house policy as some other colleges and things of this nature. Plus, uh, plus there was a rumor going around that, that in history, I believe it was, uh, 110 that he taught. I, I'm not sure one of the freshman history courses

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that, that, uh, oh, they used to grade on, on a year basis instead of a semester basis. And a guy once got a one in, in, uh, the first semester course and then, uh, he was gonna get a five in the second semester course and then

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it would average out to a three, which is what the guy wanted in his history course overall. And that, uh, Masterson to combat this little thing gave the guy a 10. So it would average out or a nine. So it would average out to a five

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and, uh, uh, the guy would flunk the course. So, I don't know, these are just the sort of rumors that float around among the students. I think, and that's the sort of thing I heard, I, I heard really about the man before, you know, before any

00:14:13.349 - 00:14:33.489

of this business about him being selected. You know, I personally tend to disregard things like that because they're hard to substantiate. I mean, they're just, they are rumors really. But, uh, rumors do have some foundation when they're all of the same nature. You tend to wonder

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too, what was your reaction when you uh heard the messers had been selected? Uh It was on that Friday and I heard it at noon in the commons when Tom Plant, the past president came in and got me. Uh my reaction was mainly that I didn't

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really feel I could say anything about Masterson himself because I didn't know the guy. And the only thing that, that I could base any opinion of him as president on it was just these rumors and then, then things that, like I, I told you my first

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reactions on what sort of man he would be just looking at the, the uh objective facts of what positions he had held in the university. And uh so I didn't really have any, any opinion there. Uh except for the fact that I thought maybe it would

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have been better if we had gone out and gotten uh maybe a more famous figure for its, for its president. And that was the only reaction I had maybe to the man, the thing that I was displeased with really. And I think plant was at that

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time was, uh, just the way, you know, we heard that, that he had been chosen, that the committee hadn't been consulted because, uh, although, like I said, I, I hadn't taken much part in, in the activities of the committee. We did have this, this kind of

00:16:08.690 - 00:16:26.169

feeling among the students that I described to you before, that the committee would actually make the decision and, uh that this is the way things are. I, that feeling of course, isn't justified at all, I guess. But nevertheless, it was there when it was just broken

00:16:26.179 - 00:16:43.580

like that. There was a big uproar, especially from the, the, the students who had worked with this thing a little more than I had and, and, uh, just their feelings that, well, they've done all this work cut off. How, how did you get this news? Was

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this at the, uh, did you attend the, um, prior meeting with Mr Allen and Mr Teague? We got it to the, uh, 330. Yes, I walked into that thing late with Tom, but I'd heard about this in the selection, uh, from Tom, like I said at,

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at noon and I don't know where he got it. Someone called him, uh, when Tom first told you, did he know at that time that the committee had been bypassed or was he? Yes, he did. He did know. So you knew that I got to meeting.

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Right. I didn't know, uh, I didn't know where he got his information either. I assume one of the people, one of the other college presidents and one of the people on the committee might have called him, uh, at that meeting. What was your impression of, uh,

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of, uh, Mr Allen's, uh, announcement? What, how did he impress you as a man and also as a member of the board and in giving this information, uh, I, I'll tell you what I said to, uh, to Tom, as I walked out of there and, and

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it, it's unfair, I think now, but I said, boy, these board members really are a bunch of hicks, aren't they? And I, I think it was, you know, it's a cruel thing to say. But, but you go in there and this guy with this long draw

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was, was telling you this is the, the way things are and that we aren't gonna change it. And that, uh, he, he kind of said, well, maybe the mistake has been made but we're sticking with it and it was just, uh, it was a hard line

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to take and, uh, and, uh, I don't know, I just, I guess you could say turned everyone off, just the idea that this hard line that, that, that they would not renege on it at all. And I don't, that is the way Mr Mr Allen impressed

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me at that meeting. Really? Did, did anyone speak up or talk back or what, what went on after the announcement. Uh He made the announcement, uh several students, uh mostly uh student members of the committee, uh like Barry Kaplan, uh Mrs Barry Kaplan uh brought out,

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you know, the arguments that, well, gee we had done all this work and we're sorry that you bypassed us. And then, uh let me see, trying to think of what professor said to. I can't recall too much. Uh Charlie Myers. Uh It was all the, the

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same basic argument, mainly Char Chalie Myers really just repeated what Barry had said and said, why did you go around the committee? Why didn't you consult with, why, why didn't you ask us what we thought? You know, and then a lot of this, this strife could

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have been uh averted if, if, uh you know, the committee had been approached and, and maybe even agreed to Masterson. Uh And I remember that it got kind of heated there for a while and that, that uh Doctor Broaden stepped in and tried to cool the

00:19:54.750 - 00:20:08.510

whole thing down but, and Broaden was in a, in a mood that I've only seen him once. He's usually very calm and very rational, but he looked like he was gonna explode. He really did. He looked like he was really mad and he, and he was

00:20:08.520 - 00:20:21.869

red in the face and he was looked like he was holding back a temper and he just stepped in and said, I think we are getting, we are getting too uh explosive here and, and this thing must stop. Uh And, and thank you Mr Allen for

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coming and explaining. Then he cut the meeting off like that at four o'clock. Uh really at that meeting there. Uh Yeah, there's not too much to say about it except that the announcement was made and that there was just a bad reaction to it from the

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people in the room. Uh, all the, I would venture to guess at all the people in the room certainly knew both the master Masterson had been selected and that the committee had been bypassed before they went into the room. I just feel certainly do. What was

00:21:01.270 - 00:21:27.359

your impression of the, of the real cause of the resentment at this point? Was it was the resentment, uh, because, uh, a procedure or was it because by failing to use a procedure, uh, they got the wrong man. Uh, well, I think, I think there was

00:21:27.369 - 00:21:45.000

a little bit of both. It depends on, I can tell you what I felt. What I felt at that point was, was just simply that, that, uh, I had a pretty big resentment about the procedure, you know. Uh, now there were other people who seem to

00:21:45.010 - 00:22:00.780

have known the man or something. They, they had other feelings in there and they, that later played a big part, I think in, in coming to bear. On the situation, but from my own opinion right there, it was just a bad procedure to use. And from

00:22:00.790 - 00:22:13.359

the first, from when I heard about it, I kind of felt, well, you know, we can do what we can about it but I bet we're stuck with the guy, you know, just, just like that and I didn't know that it would be that, that big

00:22:13.390 - 00:22:30.849

a, uh, you know, crime or whatever to be, to be stuck with the guy actually. Uh, because I didn't know that much about the man and, and I was just simply upset with the procedure that was used at that time. Did you attend the four o'clock

00:22:31.020 - 00:22:56.930

meeting? We walked over there and, uh, well, I don't know what I can say about that meeting except that it was, it just, it amounted to in a way the college presidents getting up there and I don't know, exhorting the masses or something, which is always

00:22:56.939 - 00:23:14.000

kind of, uh, uh, well, I, I've never liked things like that too much. I, I, and, and Will Rice, uh, if I can skip on to the later, later meeting at Will Rice at night, the way I've always tried to approach things is just tell them

00:23:14.010 - 00:23:28.420

what I think and let them decide for themselves what to do. And I really had the feeling at, at the four o'clock meeting that, uh, well, the, the, well, the student leaders were being leaders in the sense that they were trying to get everyone else to

00:23:28.430 - 00:23:43.170

follow them into this thing. And that's something you have to do in something like this. But to be completely honest about it, I think you, you have to let most people decide for themselves and I guess most people do. Did you think that they misrepresented anything

00:23:43.180 - 00:24:07.459

in any way or not? There was a, quite a bit of emotion there. I felt, uh, Tom Plant got up there and said, uh uh we, we led you to believe that that uh this committee would, would have the say in picking the president. And we,

00:24:07.469 - 00:24:21.380

we led you to believe this and we led you to believe that. Well, I'm sorry, we were wrong and that, that sort of tone I think has, has a certain amount of emotional impact to it. And in a, when you look at the situation, you know,

00:24:21.390 - 00:24:38.400

you need to, if, if you're gonna lead something like this, you need to bring in the emotional type type appeal to really get the, get the thing rolling. But like I say, I've never felt that, you know, emotion brought into anything like this is completely honest

00:24:39.030 - 00:24:57.219

in the sense. But I also believe that most people there have have enough sense to, you know, make their own decision and not do anything simpler because, you know, someone else is doing it. We might be at a good uh uh pausing place right here. You

00:24:57.349 - 00:25:15.260

would let me flip over this tape. This is a continuation of the interview with Buchert Alexander. Uh This is tape six side one. Ok. I'm sorry for the interruption. But, uh, you know, if we're wasteful with tape, we might run out of money before we finish

00:25:15.270 - 00:25:37.160

it. Yeah, that's, that's true. Very true. So, we were, uh, we, we've gotten up to the, um, the, a four o'clock meeting at the gym and we were talking about um the performance of the, of the student leaders in, in mobilizing opinion and your reactions to

00:25:37.170 - 00:25:55.680

that were, did you make any uh speeches at this time? Uh No, uh what essentially they did was, was have the SS A president one and then the four sorry seven college presidents. Uh Well, let me see. I don't think the two girls spoke but the

00:25:55.689 - 00:26:16.250

five guys got up there and spoke and uh Tom Plant, you know, represented will rice in this and just gave their views. Who else spoke among the uh student buddy. Uh I believe uh Mrs Barry Kaplan uh spoke and uh which was really an emotional appeal.

00:26:16.349 - 00:26:37.829

And then Greg White got up there and I thought, gave a rather uh uh good rational argument explaining exactly how he felt what the circumstances were and sat down, which is kind of thing that appeals to me really as uh as issues emerging from this. What

00:26:37.839 - 00:26:59.969

was your impression of uh of the issues at this? Point of the issues. I, I don't know that at this point, the thing had developed that much, um, I might add that, that at 12 o'clock when Tom came and got me and told me about, we

00:26:59.979 - 00:27:18.270

went over to the thresher office and it was there that, that, uh, you know, we really start talking about this and, and, uh, I guess that's coming fairly important thing left out. Uh, most of the college presidents were there, Dennis Baylor from the thresher, uh, Warren

00:27:18.280 - 00:27:40.410

scan, Doctor Rudy, who's the new master w uh dropped by. And, uh, we were just giving our first reactions. Uh, I didn't say too much. Uh, really, I'm kind of new to the whole thing just having been elected the Wednesday before. Uh, most of the talking

00:27:40.420 - 00:28:03.849

was done. I really by Barry Kaplan and she, at that time, um, I was, I was unimpressed with her at that time, I must say because, uh I felt that that she was going back to her emotions too much, uh, as opposed to the reason and

00:28:03.859 - 00:28:21.319

just simply the fact that the committee had been bypassed, but I could understand her position because she was on the committee and she felt just horribly slighted. And, uh, she kept saying over and over that the ironical thing was that the committee hadn't been used at

00:28:21.329 - 00:28:34.829

all. Some people were making uh, remarks in the fact that, well, the committee had been used as, as kind of a front for the board and she says, and the horrible thing was that the committee wasn't used at all. They didn't even pay any attention to

00:28:34.839 - 00:28:55.079

it. And so I think I can understand her feelings and that, did you get the impression that, uh, that her personal, uh, uh, hurt at being, uh, slighted, uh, was, was being generalized into a university problem, uh, to give it more, uh, dignity or? Well, I

00:28:55.089 - 00:29:19.500

think uh her, her personal hurt in being slighted uh played AAA big role in, in her position on this. And she uh was, I guess you might say one of the, the foremost leaders in the thing she did speak her, her mind quite a bit. And

00:29:19.510 - 00:29:33.640

uh well, I don't know, I think it was part of her motives and the thing I really do, I also think that from the beginning that she didn't like Masterson, I don't know, for what reasons I really don't. These are just impressions that I have from

00:29:33.650 - 00:29:53.760

talking to her because even at that 12 o'clock meeting the thresher office, she, she made comments about Masterson, what, you know, lousy president, he would be and, you know, as well as the process. But I personally, I was influenced by her. But I, I personally, at

00:29:53.829 - 00:30:12.170

that point and really most of that day, well, the whole day, certainly, I felt that, uh you know, the only issue at hand was really the fact that the committee had been bypassed and I felt that all the way through and including our college meeting that

00:30:12.180 - 00:30:38.099

night after that four o'clock meeting, uh, things in will rise weren't, well, we're mostly in the form of just discussion at dinner and, uh, then after dinner, a few people stayed around in the comments and discussed it. But, uh, we didn't have any, any big meetings

00:30:38.109 - 00:30:53.609

after dinner. Like, I believe some of the colleges did immediately after dinner. We had one later that night. Uh but I think in, in Will Rice, most, most everything took the form of just informal discussions. Went to this meeting at four o'clock among the students. Did

00:30:53.619 - 00:31:11.209

you get over to the faculty meeting or hear about their action? And I went over there after, after the end of the student meeting. And uh well, I think uh most of the students felt just standing out there and the faculty came out, you know, and

00:31:11.219 - 00:31:27.589

they applauded and everything. I think that the, the students simply felt well, here it is the faculty backing us up on, on something that, that we had felt too. And it was a, a very, you know, tremendous feeling that, that here we had gone out, we

00:31:27.599 - 00:31:47.140

were taking a position on it and sure enough there they come in the same position. It was, it was, it was mainly just a good feeling. Yeah, I, I think from that was the moment that the students really started appreciating the faculty in this really was

00:31:48.349 - 00:32:15.290

before that they were kinda operating independently after all this. I, uh, well, I went back and I can't really recall what I did between, uh, dinner and that 10 o'clock meeting over in hands and cons, uh, I think I was, spent mostly just talking to people

00:32:15.300 - 00:32:36.689

about it, um, about the situation. But, uh, and that, that meeting at, at Hanson, it, it, uh, 10 o'clock was very, uh, kind of unique situation for me because I walked in there to see what was going on. And, uh, you see, I was in a

00:32:36.699 - 00:32:53.510

weird position because I was the president elect of the college and I had no official function in all this whatsoever. Uh, well, the president wasn't there so they grabbed me and sat me down up there and, uh, uh, all the college presidents got up and, and

00:32:53.520 - 00:33:11.770

said what their colleges have been doing, uh, concerning, uh, the, the events and everything college meetings have been held in the opinion and, and I think a couple of colleges taking votes on it. And, uh, really at that time it, it, it was weird. I, I

00:33:11.780 - 00:33:29.819

really felt the loss for, for getting up there because we, we hadn't had any, any sort of meeting to that point and there wasn't any synthesis of, of, of the feeling within the college. I, I think Will Rice has always operated mainly now. It's been called

00:33:29.829 - 00:33:50.810

the college of individuals and it's, it's operated mainly by the students forming their own opinions and doing what they want as opposed to maybe, uh, there being an official thing of what the college is doing and that's the way we were kind of operating in Will

00:33:50.859 - 00:34:11.389

Will Rice College is, is sort of a political. Yeah, it really is. It's a government is kind of a dirty word and, well, right, you see, it's, it's kind of one big anarchistic state and, and, uh, you know, it's, you don't want any strict controls on

00:34:11.399 - 00:34:33.169

anything because it's, it's, you know, it's just not the way anyone runs anything over there. We look at Hansen as being completely different but after this 10 o'clock meeting, um, which was decide, uh, it was decided to, to hold the, uh, march the next day and

00:34:33.179 - 00:34:51.010

then the, uh, teach in, of course, the teach in was scheduled before, but it was broadened at that time. Uh, I started thinking, I thought, well, just from the point of information that we ought to have a college meeting and I was on very tenuous grounds

00:34:51.020 - 00:35:06.320

here because, like I say, I wasn't the president but I called one anyway because the president was out of town and we, we met about 1130 that night and had about an hour long meeting. And, uh, see, I'm confused about one point I was saying that

00:35:06.330 - 00:35:24.449

to plant was, uh, was, I was saying he was president of, uh, was he out of, he, was he out of town on that Friday night? He, yes, I, I've forgotten exactly what it was but he had some very important engagement that night and after dinner

00:35:24.459 - 00:35:40.570

he left to go to this thing and I didn't see him until very late that night. And, uh, he told what he told me was at, at dinner. He says if anything comes up, take care of it like that. So I was, you know, I'm kind

00:35:40.580 - 00:36:03.600

of in a nebulous state in there with just doing things based on a verbal kind of OK for the and, uh, well, we had our meeting at 1130 the way Greg and I ran the meeting really Greg White since he is from well rise, he lives

00:36:03.610 - 00:36:23.300

in the college. Uh I, I really felt at that time to just, just pass on what I knew and make it kind of informational type thing. And like, you can, like, you can see, I, I've got kind of an aversion to get, getting up and making

00:36:23.310 - 00:36:40.530

an emotional appeal and I must say that, that you can see from this address, my background. I've got an aversion also to two things like, uh marches, you know, and student protests and things like that. It's just, it's the very antithesis of my background. It really

00:36:40.540 - 00:36:59.699

is. And when I went into that meeting that night, I knew that I was getting up there and I was, was saying what I was gonna do, which was partake and, you know, participate in all of all of these marches, things of that nature. Uh And

00:36:59.709 - 00:37:14.709

I was, I was getting up there and I was gonna suggest to other people that they do the same. Uh And to me that was a, uh it's hard for me to express to you what a strong line that is for me to take, to do

00:37:14.719 - 00:37:34.820

something that much to, to buck the, the stream and everything. Um But, uh, well, at that meeting, I, I tried to approach it in that sense and I did make comments the fact. Well, if I'm going out there, you know, you know, that it's OK and,

00:37:34.830 - 00:37:51.290

and Greg is, is always impressed me because he's extremely rational and he got there no emotional appeal whatsoever. He just simply told him what he thought. And in a way I thought it, I thought it was just much more convincing than, than almost anything really. Uh

00:37:51.300 - 00:38:07.290

There were, I, we counted about 100 members of the college there, which is surprising for a Friday night at 1130 that uh we called the meeting 15 minutes. And so that's, that's really good attendance. I think. How do you go about calling a meeting like that?

00:38:07.300 - 00:38:22.959

Uh You turn around and say, uh I said to my communications committee chairman, I said, we're gonna have a meeting 15 minutes and he says, right. And that was, that he got him down there and people running up and down the hall, he, uh, he organized,

00:38:22.969 - 00:38:42.860

he was extremely efficient and, uh, just got everyone out and the students, you know, themselves felt the need for the meeting and it was, it wasn't that really, I don't felt that I, I didn't feel that I was leading the situation at all and I felt

00:38:42.870 - 00:38:57.310

that I was responding more to, to, to the feeling at the time because, because I just said to some guys, let's, let's have a meeting. I think we should. And they, they all agreed, they thought it was a good idea and you really didn't have to

00:38:57.320 - 00:39:14.929

say anything to them. I mean, they got, they went, uh, five or six of them that were standing there, just went to all the rooms automatically and got everyone down there because they felt that this is something, uh, that need to be discussed. And like I,

00:39:14.939 - 00:39:31.379

my attitude going to that meeting was mostly, like I said, uh, just an informational type thing. I wanted everyone in the college to know exactly what was going on as I saw it and as Greg saw it and, and that was the main thing, if it

00:39:31.389 - 00:39:48.080

really didn't bother me at all, if, you know, if half the college decided not to go to the thing tomorrow on Saturday as it turned out, I think they all did. But, uh, to me, that's, that's kind of a personal type decision. I just simply told

00:39:48.090 - 00:40:00.090

them that I was going and, you know, they could do what they wanted to and that's the way things work and we rise in your discussions with them. What, what points did you bring up? You uh had had by this time uh been through the meeting

00:40:00.100 - 00:40:15.250

of 330 with Alan and Teague, you went through the four o'clock meeting, you knew, knew about the faculty resolution. And uh you've been in the Henson meeting so out of out of this experience, uh what, what synthesis did you present to your uh to your meeting?

00:40:15.270 - 00:40:36.850

Well, I presented simply the, the facts as I saw of these meetings, uh what had we reviewed what had occurred at the four o'clock meeting and the faculty resolutions. And uh then I just really, I didn't make a big appeal except when I had finished presenting

00:40:36.860 - 00:40:58.429

the facts as I, as I saw them. And when, when Greg had finished presenting his, his views of the committee, I just simply said uh that because of, of this uh uh the method by which the selection was made, I still very, very firmly felt that

00:40:58.439 - 00:41:18.500

that it was, it was simply a matter of the selection and that the guy had to stay out of it. And for this reason that uh that I thought that that uh the planned activities for the next day were very much justified that, that, uh, we

00:41:18.510 - 00:41:34.649

should, you know, go out and do this. Uh, there's something I've, I've learned in the last couple of months here that, that in any system, government system, there's delicate powers and one guy has a certain amount of power here and the other guy has a certain

00:41:34.659 - 00:41:55.629

amount of power and it's kind of the way things are organized on paper and in constitutions and by the law and you can do everything from a legal standpoint and it's, well, it's just fine, I guess, except that what is really important is, is maybe the

00:41:55.639 - 00:42:15.189

attitude uh of the people you're dealing with and their attitude is not gonna be good. If you press your powers to the full legal extent, it's gotta be a give and take situation and it's, it's gotta, well, you've gotta stop just, just clashing your full power

00:42:15.199 - 00:42:33.389

with someone else's full power and work the thing out. Uh Not necessarily in some sort of compromise, but at least get together and meet on whatever particular issue is at hand and arrive at a solution. That's, that's uh agreeable to most of the people, whether you

00:42:33.399 - 00:42:55.100

have the final say or not. I, I really think this is important uh because I, I governments, it seems to me just will not operate properly unless they uh they approach things in this manner uh to try and create a good attitude going along along with

00:42:55.110 - 00:43:11.780

the thing, not necessarily pressing each guy pressing his power to the fullest extent. And that's something that I'm glad I learned when I did because I've been trying to work it out within the college, which is hard. It's the same sort of situation really. Uh, you

00:43:11.790 - 00:43:28.409

know, you have one group that, that doesn't like you or something like that, you've gotta, you gotta, or two groups fighting among each other and you've gotta work it out somehow and if you just start throwing power around it doesn't always work. And so what I

00:43:28.419 - 00:43:46.360

said about the, uh, uh, the selection is simply that the board had done everything within, within the law and within their legal rights, but yet something was missing there. And that was this extra sort of thing that I believe that, that they needed, which was just

00:43:46.370 - 00:44:01.899

sort of, well, I don't know, this good faith in working things out. Good faith is the word that people tended to use. I think it was very, uh, uh, a good expression for it really. And that this had been, uh, just simply ignored and that I

00:44:01.909 - 00:44:20.080

thought that it was necessary to make it clear to the board that, that, uh, this is important and especially now in this time, as opposed to maybe 20 years ago, it's, it's extremely important. There's something I, I feel here that I've kind of learned from all

00:44:20.090 - 00:44:42.760

this and that is that I get the feeling that, that the generation of my parents feels that if there's a law and, and things operate by the law, it's correct and it's right and it's morally right. But I, I think that my generation doesn't feel that

00:44:42.770 - 00:45:04.050

at all, uh, they don't, they separate the law from morally. Right. And if there's a law against it or a law concerning something and yet they feel that it's, it's morally right in, in doing something that's in opposition to the law, I think, uh, you see,

00:45:04.060 - 00:45:18.479

from the Vietnam situation, draft card and all burn and all this sort of stuff that, that there are people who are following, kind of what they think is morally right, as opposed to what's legally, right. And I, I, it just seems to me a lot of

00:45:18.489 - 00:45:39.929

is that it's, people aren't, uh, that in the older generation, I guess, don't, don't separate these two things like the students of today do. And that's where a lot of the difficulty and lack of communications come from. Personal theory. All that, I don't know. To me

00:45:39.939 - 00:45:54.689

this, this thing was the same sort of thing. I just, there was a law on the, and the board worked by the law, but yet we were looking for something that more than just the law. We were looking for the right way of doing it and

00:45:54.989 - 00:46:14.870

I felt that it hadn't been done the right way. And that's simply what I told him that he, the college were these, uh, the same points that Greg uh emphasized or did he, uh, add another perspective, Greg mainly talked about the committee and just had said

00:46:14.879 - 00:46:32.590

that I believe the committee had met Thursday with, with, uh, members of the board. I'm not sure who exactly. And, uh, he just said that at that time, he was informed of the selection that they had been bypassed. And the, the, the committee, he, he talked

00:46:32.600 - 00:46:49.149

about the work the committee had done preparing 60 dossiers and, and uh suggesting five to the board because he felt that the, they had felt that the board wasn't uh moving fast enough on this matter and that they had to get the board rolling and they

00:46:49.159 - 00:47:02.840

wanted to put in these five names to just kind of get the board thinking about it. And that the main thing he said was just what a surprise and a letdown, it was to find out that they had really been moving on the thing and that

00:47:02.850 - 00:47:27.949

it was uh no, no, no, it was, it was a letdown or something at the meeting, the Saturday morning, uh meeting over in the uh gym. Were there any speeches of the faculty that particularly stand out in your mind? Um Well, Doctor Castaneda, uh does simply

00:47:27.959 - 00:47:42.810

from the standpoint that he was the new master of W Rice and he had just been selected a week before and I hadn't had an opportunity to talk to him and I didn't know him too well. I, he knew my name and I knew his and

00:47:42.820 - 00:48:01.840

this was getting to be my first impression of him that he was, uh for Masterson as president and he didn't think we should be doing what we were doing. And so in that sense, it did stand out very much online. Um, other than that, uh how

00:48:01.850 - 00:48:23.530

did you evaluate his reasons for this position? Uh I, I simply feel that well, that he came to rise when, when uh Masterson was Dean of Humanities and that, uh he had known the man real well and uh I guess they had been friends. I, I'm

00:48:23.540 - 00:48:43.489

throwing a lot of my personal guesses into this really. Uh and that they had known each other pretty well and that ma uh Castaneda thought Masterson would be an excellent president and liked the man a lot. And uh for that reason, I thought he stayed out

00:48:43.500 - 00:49:01.439

and spoke his mind on it, which was, which was good as far as I was concerned. Were there any other Pro Masterson speeches that you recall? Um, not really the audience reaction to Ca Castaneda kind of bad. Yeah. Really? Was, uh, I think there was even

00:49:01.449 - 00:49:20.540

some bullying I can't recall right now, maybe a little bit but uh it was, it was quite negative and by that time people were beginning to, you know, get on the bandwagon, kind of, it was things were starting to roll by its, by their own momentum.

00:49:20.550 - 00:49:41.110

And, and uh I think also that, that meeting, that in a meeting like that the people who are likely to show up are, are people who, who feel, you know, that, that Masterson say shouldn't be president of the university as opposed to those who felt they

00:49:41.120 - 00:49:58.239

should, they wouldn't, they wouldn't go to the meeting because they might think that that was some sort of, uh sign that they agreed with everyone else there. But in, in, in a way, I think maybe that explains the strong vote that was taken there at, at

00:49:58.629 - 00:50:20.750

the meeting. But uh when you, when you use an expression, like uh you know, people, by this time people were getting on the bandwagon, things started rolling. Um Would I be correct in, in thinking that um maybe your view of this is that, that the mobilization

00:50:20.760 - 00:50:50.340

of mass opinion has an intimidating effect? Yeah, I think it does. I really do. Um Well, Masterson him himself told us later on that. He, he thought that the uh um seeing all those students out there was, was quite surprising to me and that I think

00:50:50.350 - 00:51:15.149

it, it did have some effect on him also uh uh in recent discussions with Doctor Vandever, um he mentioned the fact that he thought the board had been really quite surprised and impressed by uh the 1200 students who uh who did show up in front of

00:51:15.159 - 00:51:36.600

them at home that day. And also the fact they showed up co and times, you know, instead of the, what could be construed as, as, uh, some sort of hippie gathering or something. I don't know, one thing that going back to that 10 o'clock meeting at

00:51:36.610 - 00:52:01.810

Hanson the night before, uh, one thing that, that really concerned us, there was the press in a way and, and what they would think about it and, uh, what, what people in general we were concerned with opinion. We really, we really were. Uh and that is

00:52:01.820 - 00:52:18.020

why this coat and tie thing kind of came into it because we wanted everyone to know that it wasn't just some faction out there that it was the, the hardcore anti revolutionaries, you know, uh we were just bending over backwards to do something like this. And

00:52:18.030 - 00:52:34.399

one freshman came up to me, he's got fairly long hair and he's, he's, now he's a member of that you left, you might say or something. And uh he said, you know, in all he said, to be honest with myself, I can't go out there and

00:52:34.409 - 00:52:52.250

go and die. And I said, well, yeah, I know what you mean. But really, you know, I if you can bring yourself to do it, do it because it does matter what, what they print in the papers. And I, I'm sorry, it's, it's a realistic way

00:52:52.260 - 00:53:05.560

of looking at it. And uh I figured he'd show up in his regular, you know, clothes and sure enough the next day he was out there in a coat and tie. It's amazing. It really was. Did he, uh did he get his hair cut or anything

00:53:05.570 - 00:53:27.399

or you better believe that that would have? Really? Yeah, he did. And that, I think he, he just realized that, uh you know, the, the realistic outlook in this thing also something that influenced us at night, this weird sort of way was there was a, a

00:53:27.409 - 00:53:47.899

rice alumna there who had just come from a, let me see, a cub scout meeting or something like that. And she got up and, and pleaded uh with everyone to uh please don't destroy your image because the people of Houston love rice people. And I never

00:53:47.909 - 00:54:01.699

knew they did. I kind of had the opposite impression. But anyway, she said that and that, you know, got people thinking, yeah, I guess we better watch that, you know, and she said, don't go out there looking bad and, and making it look like a riot,

00:54:01.709 - 00:54:19.479

make it peaceful and orderly and, and that's what's really gonna count. And she was right. She really was after the meeting at the uh gym on Saturday morning. Then you all went over to um wait outside lit hall. Was there any uh uh reduction in the

00:54:19.489 - 00:54:34.050

crowd? I, I understand it's getting to be around noon today or did it hold up pretty far? About 1200 or uh I thought there were just a, 1000 in the gym and then the papers came out with 1200 they might have just boosted it up a

00:54:34.060 - 00:54:52.989

little bit for, I don't know, sake of the press or something. I don't know if that 1200 figures, uh, exact or not, but it seemed to me to be holding up, uh, pretty well, uh, for at least an hour or so. And I don't know, I,

00:54:53.000 - 00:55:09.560

I thought most of the people went out there stayed around the time when people start, really started to leave was when it started to get towards lunch in the colleges. And, uh, they would say, well, should we leave or should we stay? Have we made our

00:55:09.570 - 00:55:27.239

point? And I, I remember talking to Warren about that and he said, well, those people who wanna go can't, we're certainly not holding anyone back. And I think we've made our point and, uh, you know, so that I might remark here that, that one was really

00:55:27.250 - 00:55:44.739

the leader in the thing. I mean, in the past there's always been a big fight between college presidents and the s a president over who has, you know, what authority and, and, and is, uh, most people tend to look at them on the same level. Uh,

00:55:45.149 - 00:56:00.679

at least that's the way we hope they do. But one really, i, it was war not because he was s a president really. But because he was warned really that, that made him stand out in front, I think. And uh also his position of S A

00:56:00.689 - 00:56:19.840

president made it logically fall upon him. But uh there was no doubt about it. He was, he was the leader in this thing, the student leader in any of the meetings, all of it, the, the final analysis. It kind of, there was a, a synthesis of

00:56:19.850 - 00:56:43.429

opinion and everyone kind would agree on things, but it would fall back on one pretty much. What was your impression of, uh, of, uh, Doctor Masterson when he came out? Uh, quite bad. Well, he just, uh, I don't know if it's the right thing to do

00:56:43.439 - 00:57:06.379

or to approach a crowd like that and, uh, just say, get up there and say that that you're not going to renege and, uh, well, his attitude was what got to me, I think it was, it seemed to be, uh, well, I think I know how

00:57:06.389 - 00:57:21.169

you feel about the way you were bypassed in the selection. I don't know if he knew that yet, but that's the way we kind of interpreted it. Uh, I, I know how you feel but we'll work things out sort of thing and that's sort of the

00:57:21.179 - 00:57:39.469

impression I got of, of him as he was talking and I was, I think most of the people there kind of felt. Oh, yeah, we won't work things out. And, um, then there was also just the idea of, of, of the, uh, by that time, all

00:57:39.479 - 00:57:58.649

this protest kind of led to, uh, hello, feeling against him too. In this, in this, you can't get out there and walk around and protest one thing without, uh, the, just, just the procedure without kind of bringing the guy into it, especially when he comes out

00:57:58.659 - 00:58:17.830

there and confronts you because, you know, you, you've got something, you tend to build up a barrier against everything concerned with it. You know, the board Masterson, the procedure, everything and lump it all in together. And when he got up up there and said things that

00:58:17.840 - 00:58:35.219

didn't appeal to the audience that just, uh, it, it, it really made him look bad in the eyes of, uh, in my eyes and everyone else is there. I think that I talked to, we were really quite disappointed there were remarks made at that time like,

00:58:36.189 - 00:58:53.860

well, a pitcher would have handled it better and things of that nature and I don't know if a pitcher was, but I, I can remember that statement exactly at lunch during that day and at lunch, most of the people were really very much disappointed, you know,

00:58:53.870 - 00:59:09.080

because they didn't know what was gonna happen, uh next. And uh, no, they just didn't know what to think and really didn't. Were you involved in, you were involved, weren't you with the specials with matches later on when they, when did they convene? Let me see.

00:59:09.090 - 00:59:26.629

It was two o'clock I think we started, um, well, we met at two o'clock and Razor and I don't think they really started until 230 or something. Uh, Masterson came in with, with, uh, Lee Estes and, uh, Doctor Mac, uh, Mr mckinney. And, uh, all three

00:59:26.639 - 00:59:50.899

of them came in later. Uh, Warren, the college presidents, uh, myself president elect of Will Rise and Anne Jones, president elect of, uh, uh, Jones was there along with Larry Flournoy, who is the executive vice president elect, I guess of, of, of wise. And then the,

00:59:50.909 - 01:00:16.310

uh, three student members of the student faculty committee, Barry, uh Kaplan, George Forestall and Greg. And, uh, well, that meeting when I think back on it just strikes me as kind of a, a merry go round, you know, just, you, you talk for a long time

01:00:16.320 - 01:00:39.060

and everyone gets kind of tired and you don't really reach any agreement except that, that, uh, Masterson, uh, uh, said something about, uh, thinking over, uh, what had been said and making up his mind one way or the other on, uh, by Tuesday and no one

01:00:39.070 - 01:01:00.989

was clear. I've got a couple releases here. Let me just, we wrote a release. That kind of, we tried to synthesize what he said but, uh, I guess, I don't know if we ever released this or not. Oh, he just said that he was gonna, uh,

01:01:01.000 - 01:01:21.800

discuss with members of the board, the attitudes on campus and, and how people felt and, and by Tuesday night he would have some decision made on what we do next. And which was kind of a, at that time at the end of a long meeting, you

01:01:21.810 - 01:01:40.590

think? Well, ok, that sounds ok. And, and you, you come up with something like that and then later after you've gone to dinner and you come back at 10 o'clock and think about and reread what you'd written earlier and try and see what it says. You,

01:01:40.600 - 01:01:56.469

you look at it and you think that doesn't say anything. And, and that was, I think one of the contributing factors to this really, this change of attitude between the afternoon meeting and the evening meeting. It's just, uh, well, we had time to think about it

01:01:56.479 - 01:02:20.080

and we saw what, what, what we had done, the press release we had written and it really said nothing and, and, uh I just gave us all a bad feeling also. Uh, uh we had given Masterson the opportunity to go talk to members of the board

01:02:20.090 - 01:02:40.699

about this. And there are some people who felt that, that we shouldn't have uh uh done that and that he had Hoodwinked us. And, uh uh well, that just kind of contributed to the, to the feeling at 10 o'clock when we met again. What did you

01:02:40.709 - 01:02:58.729

understand to be the, the students side? Uh What, what, what did you understand their goals to be at this meeting at the at the, at these meetings with Masterson. Oh, ok. Well, um, what we had thought was, was simply that it's gonna take some time before

01:02:58.739 - 01:03:16.139

the faculty gets organized, you know, to do anything and if something's gonna be done that the, that the students would have to do it, uh, simply because we, we had our organizations there. Uh, so we decided to do something about it. Warren called the meeting. Really?

01:03:16.149 - 01:03:42.320

He got, uh he had uh gotten in touch with uh Masterson. So uh we simply at, at this meeting wanted to impress upon Masterson, our feelings that we had been bypassed in the selection and that things on campus were in a bad state of affairs simply

01:03:42.330 - 01:04:00.050

because of this bypassing. And that we felt that that because of the mood on campus, if Masterson did wanna come to rise, he was gonna have to make some gesture somewhere to uh well, to kind of make up to the students or something. And we were

01:04:00.060 - 01:04:15.969

looking for anything. Uh at some point in the meeting, I think it was at the beginning, I think we asked him if he would resign, first of all to get that straightened out. He said no. And, and we were just probing for something, you know, to,

01:04:15.979 - 01:04:31.919

to help better the situation when he was asked if he would resign, was that question put to him in a way that he could interpret, uh which, which of two ways that that he should resign and just give up all hopes for ever coming here as

01:04:31.929 - 01:04:56.280

president or that he should make a motion to resign and let the faculty advisory committee uh consult his credentials and then if they approved of him, well, then uh you send another invitation to both of those came out. Uh uh He felt that the second uh

01:04:56.919 - 01:05:15.090

the latter of what you just said that that if, if there is some move like this to go back to the committee that, that any sort of move like this could be just looked upon as, as the board buying off the committee, you might say, just

01:05:15.100 - 01:05:31.459

simply going back and getting the committee's endorsement for their candidate after they had announced their candidate. And he fully realized and I think everyone there did that this was uh would be a bad thing really and the people wouldn't accept that. I mean, they're not, uh

01:05:31.469 - 01:05:58.020

students weren't dumb, they really weren't. Uh And so Masterson himself, I think was against the second sort of thing. Uh As far as the first one goes, uh resigning completely, uh He kept going back to the fact that that if that the board had put a,

01:05:58.030 - 01:06:20.340

a big trust in him, uh that if he were to resign now it would be making a mockery of the board. Um that no uh distinguished man would ever come to be president of Rice University simply because uh of the board that it had been kind

01:06:20.350 - 01:06:35.889

of, uh, forced to back down. He says the president would want a strong board to back him up and, and that this would really hurt the university and, and he didn't want to hurt the university. The other thing he said was that, uh, he had to

01:06:35.899 - 01:06:50.110

consider his wife and Children in this and, and, uh, you know, he would have before he made anything, a statement like that, he'd have to talk it over with them. And, uh, then the other thing was that he had already resigned from Chattanooga and he just

01:06:50.120 - 01:07:08.129

simply could not go back there and ask them to take him back that he, he, he said that the decision has been made. I am going to be your president. And after that was established, we were looking for ways of, of trying to better the situation

01:07:08.139 - 01:07:34.020

somehow. Did you have any concessions in mind that you thought would, uh, uh, ingratiate, uh, uh, Doctor Masterson into student affections? Well, yes. Um, I, at that time I thought that he ought to go back before the committee and just, just kind of explain that, uh,

01:07:34.729 - 01:07:51.820

you know, let them ask him his views on, on the presidency of Rice and, and so they could get to know him from that standpoint. And, uh this in a way, uh I'm not too clear on this at all. I've kind of forgotten, but this in

01:07:51.830 - 01:08:14.699

a way I think is what, what he had wanted time to think about until the following Tuesday, when we broke up from that afternoon meeting, whether or not he would go back to the committee in any, any form whatsoever. Uh, I personally couldn't think of any

01:08:14.709 - 01:08:32.500

other concessions that, uh, he could have made. Uh, one thing that was brought up, I didn't bring it up was, was, uh, uh, some sort of of, uh, meeting before the faculty, let the faculty ask him questions or something. But he kind of looked upon this

01:08:32.509 - 01:08:47.939

as, as being futile, you know, the you're selected as president and you go before the faculty and let them grill you and, and uh what good's it gonna do in a way? I kinda see his point out. What good would it have done? It probably would

01:08:47.950 - 01:09:12.180

have gotten more people even more, more angry. Uh Except that if he could have really handled himself well, maybe he could have smoothed things over it. Was it a meeting such as that would demand a great deal from the man? It really would. I uh that

01:09:12.189 - 01:09:31.580

afternoon meeting to me in a way was kind of a waste because I, I don't see anything that would really got done. It was just like I said, a merry go round. Did anyone suggest? Uh well, um they probably did, but do you, do you recall

01:09:31.589 - 01:09:48.870

anyone talking about the difficulty he would have had as an administrator of uh at rise, the administrator at Rice because of the uh antagonism, right. That's, that's one of the things we just kept hitting back uh on him is just the idea that that the way

01:09:48.879 - 01:10:05.729

the opinion was mounting right now, that that uh and because of the way in which he had been selected, we weren't at all questioning his integrity. And I think one made that clear at the beginning that uh there would be faculty members who possibly would resign.

01:10:05.740 - 01:10:22.299

Uh They would resign because of him, not because of the way it was selected. But uh and then students would be very much against him and, and his kind of attitude on that particular issue was that, well, I just will do my best to help smooth

01:10:22.310 - 01:10:36.410

things over after, after I get here. And that was the same sort of attitude that I said that I thought I felt earlier when he spoke to the whole crowd. He says, well, I'm, I'm coming and we've had a bad start together, but we're gonna, we're

01:10:36.419 - 01:10:59.839

gonna make it up later and we just doubted that he could, you know, what factors in, in the student opinion at this time, do you think were, uh uh were the most significant threats about having this man, uh assume office as president of Raj? I think

01:10:59.850 - 01:11:25.549

the uh threats were, were mainly just that many of the college presidents would uh feel that after this. They, and especially the two new ones kind of myself and the ambulance, we, we couldn't work with the man too well and on certain things and, and getting

01:11:25.560 - 01:11:45.799

major policies of the university change, we would have to. And I think a lot of the students in this meeting uh felt that they also had to represent the faculty somewhat and I, I think what the faculty thought had a big effect on what the students

01:11:45.810 - 01:12:05.319

thought and that the students because they had gotten organized and had this meeting felt that they were representing the faculty somewhat in here, which might have been wrong. I don't know. Uh And we felt that part of the threat was just uh the idea that some

01:12:05.330 - 01:12:20.390

faculty members would be leaving, the faculty would be hard to deal with, the president would have to deal with faculty. Did, did he say anything in the course of these meetings, either the afternoon or the evening meeting to uh reassure you in your own mind about

01:12:20.399 - 01:12:35.680

uh what kind of president he would make? Did he, did he did anything reassuring in the way of his, he, he said it later on in the evening meeting. Uh I think, I think it was in the last 15 minute segment about 1 1230 or so

01:12:35.689 - 01:12:56.370

before the whole thing broke up. And well, when we came back after dinner and we had these really strong, I think we felt, let me just start with that whole evening meeting here. We, we felt that uh uh we had kind of been pushed around, you

01:12:56.379 - 01:13:14.779

know, and I think our, our, it hit our ego a little bit. And uh so we sat in there in the room, we all met at 10 o'clock in the conference room, third floor at the Allen Center and um discussed, you know, how we felt our

01:13:14.790 - 01:13:32.049

reaction. Everyone kind of felt like we had been on a merry go round that we had to take a harder line. And so when he walked in, we weren't as, as nice and polite as we were before and he, you know, snapped us up right away

01:13:32.060 - 01:13:55.950

and certainly realized it. And uh for some reason, he left for a few minutes. I can't remember what it was right now. Uh after we'd just kind of been batting our heads together for a while and then he came back and he said, uh something like

01:13:55.959 - 01:14:17.890

uh it is real, he was, he was upset and he was very upset and also quite tired like everyone else. And he said, uh this afternoon, I thought we had a nice meeting, but this evening, I realized a change in attitude and you seem to now

01:14:17.899 - 01:14:43.870

be questioning my integrity and worth as a university president. And I will never let you question that. And uh he just, he said, he says, if, if you want to discuss my views on certain things concerning the presidency, uh I will be prepared to discuss them.

01:14:43.879 - 01:15:04.919

I will discuss them with the committee, but I shall never discuss my credentials or my integrity in this matter. And from that point, we said, ok, let's discuss your views. And for 10 minutes or so, he, he started bringing them up, he said exactly what we

01:15:04.930 - 01:15:27.140

wanted to hear and it really, uh, it was, it was a reverse situation just very quickly and, and you, you started to, to have sympathy with the guy. Yeah, you didn't want to in a way, by that time, we've really been getting antagonistic towards the man.

01:15:27.629 - 01:15:44.669

And uh he, he got up there and he said, he knew he had seven college presidents and there were over nine actually, he said, uh he said these colleges, these colleges like that says we need something to give a boost to these colleges to let them

01:15:44.680 - 01:16:02.895

develop. And I, I think a half million dollar grant at least would, would help this thing along the physical development and then, then just help from your pre as matters. And he spoke about the graduate school and how the graduate school needed to be expanded in

01:16:02.904 - 01:16:23.299

order to have a, a great university. And these are all things that everyone wants. I mean, and we just thought great. So uh at that point, uh he, he had said that yes, he thought he would meet with the committee tomorrow afternoon uh to Sunday afternoon

01:16:23.310 - 01:16:42.810

to discuss his uh ideas on the presidency and uh the meeting broke up and he walked out the door and I kind of thought to myself, I was a bit confused. I, I thought, well, gee, he said all those nice things but yet, I don't know,

01:16:42.819 - 01:17:02.270

you know, and Larry F, Lenoy got up and said, uh something like he pulled a fast one on us or something like that and just made some very strong comments if you realize what he just did, you know, just a statement like that. And I don't

01:17:02.279 - 01:17:17.140

know, you, you get, you get all these, these, these hard, hard lines in there and uh just thinking about it, that's the way it seemed, it really did. But he, he had, he knew what we wanted to hear and he said it and it, for a

01:17:17.149 - 01:17:31.819

while there, it seemed to change our, our, our minds about all day. So we, we decided to break up and, and meet again tomorrow. I don't know, I don't know if we decide to meet or not, but I think we left things in one's hand and

01:17:31.830 - 01:17:52.529

warned and Ron that, that, that uh Lee Estes would call Ron and inform him of when to uh call the meeting for the committee. And uh you know, everyone just, it's, it's kind of a confusing situation really. We, at that point, we didn't know what they

01:17:52.540 - 01:18:07.970

uh I think Greg and I walked back to Will Rice after that together and we kind of felt that the distrust in the guy because he had just pulled this at the opportunity minute, this talk about the colleges and what needed to be done at the

01:18:07.979 - 01:18:26.379

university. And it, and we just didn't know if we could trust him. That's, that's how we felt. Did it seem odd to you that it took so long to get to that subject? Yeah, it does somewhat. Uh, I guess it does. I, I've never really thought

01:18:26.390 - 01:18:44.850

about it but it, it really does. It, it, it, it, because that, that was just in the very latter portion of, of the meetings and it does seem to me that that is, of course, what matters in all of this, uh, except that we were being,

01:18:44.859 - 01:19:04.919

I don't know, maybe kind of hard headed at the beginning feeling that, uh, we were out to stop the guy because of the way he'd been selected and that this was our main goal or, or maybe we should have been, uh, looking for ways of, of,

01:19:04.930 - 01:19:23.439

uh, getting his views across the students and, and maybe pinning him down on some of this stuff. So he would have to go through with it later on, uh, you know, like a half million dollars to oncologist. Did you come away from this feeling? Feeling like

01:19:23.450 - 01:19:42.540

he was the boards man. Well, or would that not be an accurate to? I don't, yeah, pretty much. I mean, we all seem to feel that, I think from the beginning that just the board had selected him that, that he was their guy. And that, uh

01:19:42.549 - 01:20:00.290

he had talked earlier about acting as a cushion between the president as a cushion between the board and the students and students and faculty board. And, uh that struck me as odd that he would bring it up because we regarded him as the boards man, not

01:20:00.299 - 01:20:24.910

being able to act as a cushion at all or just a one sided cushion if anything. And, uh, well, then the next day, uh, I was awake by a phone call about 10 o'clock. Uh, it was from Ron Boseman and he told me that, uh, Masterson

01:20:24.919 - 01:20:43.770

had left town to go back to, uh, Chattanooga. And we, my reaction to that was, oh, no. You know, here he said he wanted to get together with the committee to do something and then he leaves town, you know, and that, that right there just compounded

01:20:43.779 - 01:21:03.959

with it our feelings the night before, uh, what Greg and I had talked about this, this thing that maybe he Hoodwinked us at the last minute, just made us very distrustful of a guy, extremely distrustful. And, uh, we met over at, uh, at Warren's house then

01:21:03.970 - 01:21:18.750

at 11 and wrote up that statement in which we said that he was unacceptable and that the, we felt that the guy was unacceptable because we felt like we couldn't trust him really. That's, that's how I felt. Now. I'm not exactly sure how some of these

01:21:18.759 - 01:21:37.399

other people felt. I think some of them had their minds made up beforehand. Maybe. Did you, uh, did anyone ever suggest or did it cross anyone's mind that, uh, that, uh, maybe he was, was really beginning to, to cave in on his decision to, to come

01:21:37.410 - 01:21:55.629

here and he was going back to retrieve his child that I didn't think of that at all. And I don't remember anyone bringing it up. Uh We just thought he was being kinda thought hard about the whole thing. At least I thought he was being kind

01:21:55.640 - 01:22:09.700

of hard about the whole thing, just, just going back and ignoring the whole situation. And I felt that he, he just planned to go back and let it blow over and then come back and be inaugurated. And that's that uh because he had essentially until next

01:22:09.709 - 01:22:31.149

September to uh to let things blow over. And uh well, that, that's the way I looked upon at that time. And for that reason, I felt extremely distrustful of, of the guy. And that is why I agreed with the statement that we put out that quality,

01:22:31.379 - 01:22:51.229

not acceptable. Do you know if any one of them talked to him after you dis disbanded from the meeting? And I, I don't think anyone talked to him. I think Ron talked to Lee Estes and Lee Estes simply said that uh uh that this was Sunday

01:22:51.240 - 01:23:09.520

morning that, uh, Masterson had felt awfully tired and then, uh, he and his wife had decided to return to Cha, uh Chatham. And, uh, but I don't believe anyone to talk to him. Ok. Now, when the meeting broke up the night before that Saturday night or

01:23:09.529 - 01:23:28.160

early Sunday morning, um, did any of this, uh, um, change of mind from a sort of benevolent feeling toward him on the part of the students, the switch to maybe he's really betraying us was, was this evident to him? Could this have been evident to him

01:23:28.169 - 01:23:54.759

before he left or did this happen after he had disappeared? In other words, what, why, what, what would, how would he have interpreted the student leader reaction at the time? He left, uh the reaction to his leaving? Uh I think that I, I would think that

01:23:54.770 - 01:24:11.560

he would, he would think there would be a negative reaction to it, but because he said that he planned to meet Sunday afternoon with the committee and was just really going back on what he had said the night before and that, uh for no other reason.

01:24:12.529 - 01:24:30.950

Well, regardless of the reasons he gave uh for going back, which were that he was tired and everything that uh he should have, I would think that he would realize that there would be a bad reaction to just kind of leave it down. Well, when he,

01:24:30.959 - 01:24:46.149

when he left your company on the Saturday night, uh, did he have the feeling that, uh, you all are pretty positive toward him, say more positive than you've been? I think he did see, he, I think when he left, I would think that when he left

01:24:46.160 - 01:25:02.049

the afternoon meeting, he felt, well, maybe I'm getting somewhere and then that evening meeting he walks in, he was feeling pretty good at the beginning of it and then he left for 15 minutes and came back at which time he said, I noticed there's a change

01:25:02.270 - 01:25:21.350

and you're questioning my integrity and, and my uh, credentials qualifications as president. And at that time, I'm sure that, oh, I know he, well, he said he realized that, that our feelings and then I think he was able then to kind of turn the tables again.

01:25:21.359 - 01:25:42.919

And when he left, I imagine he didn't feel as good as maybe he did after the afternoon meeting. But I would think that he, he, he certainly felt that he had made a better impression than he had earlier during that, that same later meeting. You know,

01:25:42.930 - 01:25:57.069

because I see it's getting on to three o'clock. You've been at this for two hours. Do you realize that? Yeah, I guess so. You feel like I don't recall anything like, you know, this thing like this, this is, this is an exhausting process. I realize since

01:25:57.080 - 01:26:10.640

you're going to be coming back here, late July or August, we can, we can postpone the half of this issue if you like, because I know that, uh, there, there's still a lot, uh, we've got the, um, Sunday not meeting to go through and then the

01:26:10.649 - 01:26:26.859

Monday and then, uh, whatever you might have done Tuesday. So there may be another hour or an hour and a half that, uh, the things that you may want to contribute. Ok. I, I'm just thinking back, I don't think that there's that much that I could

01:26:26.870 - 01:26:49.169

say really about Sunday night and Monday, that's see, the Will Rice meeting on Sunday night. That was tape, I believe, wasn't it? Yes, I don't wanna hear the tape either because I was, that was last night. I was trying to recall that meeting and meetings are

01:26:49.180 - 01:27:02.750

very hard things to recall, especially when you're standing up in front of 300 people. I wanted to give a very accurate description, Reagan. I decided we'd do it Humpy Brinkley style and it didn't really work out too well and I kind of stuttered around a couple

01:27:02.759 - 01:27:28.580

of places and it wasn't one of my better moments. Uh, but, uh, we can wait for that. I guess. I really don't know that there's not much more that I could say about though if you have the time right now. We all right, go ahead. Now,

01:27:28.589 - 01:27:48.839

we, we, we've gotten as far as you're uh drafting the meeting. I mean, the, uh, the war. Um Well, let me see after that meeting, I went back to lunch to give the announcements at lunch and I read that thing we just drafted and uh, when

01:27:48.850 - 01:28:12.129

I read the, the word unacceptable, which was the next to the last sentence, there was an applause like I have never heard from that comments. And uh it, it was weird. It really was. And uh well then after uh dinner, Doctor uh Salzburg of the chem

01:28:12.140 - 01:28:33.580

department who's an associate of Will Rice uh spoke his views on the whole matter. Uh Salzburg came off really well in this with the members of Will Rice. They uh because he was, he did not do anything like slandering Masterson, which a lot of people real

01:28:33.700 - 01:28:51.439

well, you know, cutting him down, which a lot of people did. He, it was obvious that he was opposed to the man, but yet he spoke in such general terms, they really conducted himself well and people in the college appreciated it. And uh we had a

01:28:51.450 - 01:29:11.930

short meeting after lunch for those who are interested in Salzburg's views and, and he, he was on the committee I believe. And uh he talked about that and he talked about the faculty. So yeah, just uh we what he kept talking about what would happen if,

01:29:11.939 - 01:29:29.410

if Masterson King uh faculty resignations and he sounded kind of forlorn, you know, he says I've been here, I can't remember. He said 16 years or 19 or what. And he said I've been here 16 years and, uh, you know, I don't know what I'm gonna

01:29:29.419 - 01:29:48.629

do if I'm gonna stay or what. And it just, or you might say that the student's hero like that to get up there because he's an excellent teacher and very much respected and say something like that. It, it has a big effect on, uh, uh, that,

01:29:48.640 - 01:30:05.649

that it would, that this man as president would mean that much to him that he might, might have to, uh uh you know, resigned, which is certainly implied. Then also I spoke for a few minutes on the meeting the night before and we had agreed not

01:30:05.660 - 01:30:25.540

to divulge anything. But I told him most of what, you know, I felt was ok to tell him, which was, I don't know, I didn't tell him the intricate details, but I, I was kind of my impressions on if we had things worked out and I

01:30:25.549 - 01:30:46.200

said, not really. Uh and then, uh that day just pretty much drifted along as far as I can recall until the meeting later that night. When, once again, uh I got up and with Greg and we just kind of spilled the whole meeting just told him

01:30:46.310 - 01:31:00.200

our impressions of it. And there were a lot of people I can remember that there was a guy in the back uh back there that, that was trying to bait me to get up there and say that I didn't like Masterson, the man, you know, and

01:31:01.000 - 01:31:19.160

he wasn't, he was doing it because he obviously didn't like the man, not because he didn't want to make me look bad, I don't think. And he wanted the speaker from the podium to agree with this view. And it's a hard thing to express your, your

01:31:19.169 - 01:31:37.140

feelings towards this guy when you've really just talked to him kind of under duress for such a long period of time. And I had some trouble there expressing him and that, well, I, uh he, they asked me why I felt the guy was unacceptable. And I,

01:31:37.149 - 01:31:56.149

I said not so much because of his earlier record or anything like that, but because of, of, well, the attitude among the faculty and among the students at the time. And uh then also the uh just the feeling I had gotten from the meeting and I

01:31:56.160 - 01:32:12.759

did say that, that I didn't think that, that you should hold too much stock in the feeling I got from being there is a lot of people who wanted to, to, uh get me or someone else from the meeting to say that that, well, it was

01:32:12.770 - 01:32:27.299

obvious from the outcome of the meeting that the man was bad and they, they, they wanted to know what we thought of the man on the basis of, of that, that meeting. And to me to, to make a character judgment on the, on the basis of

01:32:27.310 - 01:32:43.830

some meeting like that is just not, well, completely crooked? Uh Are you saying that, that you got the idea that at the meeting that people wanted, that people wanted to believe that Masterson was evil? I kind of think so. Yeah, that's, I got the feeling from

01:32:43.839 - 01:32:58.470

a lot of people that I was being, they wanted to drag out of me the fact that, that, that I didn't like Masterson or something like that, which was not really the case. I felt he was unacceptable because he was of the attitudes mostly on campus.

01:32:58.479 - 01:33:14.870

And then also I distrusted him somewhat as of this feeling I had that to base something like that completely on a feeling is something I don't like to do. And Greg said something completely the opposite. He said that uh my statement is I said after Greg,

01:33:14.879 - 01:33:30.779

it was, if you listen to the tape, it's quite a contradiction. Like I'm cutting Greg down, which I didn't intend to do. But uh he says that he, he felt that from the basis of that meeting, he could make a judgment that uh um he didn't

01:33:30.790 - 01:33:52.879

like the guy and didn't think he'd be a good president, but that's all there was to it. I I just can't do that from the meeting. Sorry. Um After that, a few faculty members spoke, um Khan spoke for Kaneda spoke from the back of the room

01:33:52.890 - 01:34:14.370

for him. And then uh Salzburg spoke, Levin spoke uh mostly uh against the uh the, the way things were and that we just couldn't accept him as president because the way certain many of the faculty felt and the attitude on campus and this sort of thing

01:34:15.209 - 01:34:33.120

at this time, did you know what, how the product would be worded the next day that they were working that out? Yeah, I, we had a meeting earlier, uh, that I didn't get to, uh, I think in which they worked that ballot, uh, out. Uh, then

01:34:33.129 - 01:34:47.450

Warren came in and, and made some corrections on it. I Tom had the podium. Tom wasn't in for all these other meetings, Tom planned. Uh, and so he kind of handled that part of it and I wasn't paying that much attention to it. Tell you the

01:34:47.459 - 01:35:08.779

truth. And I didn't get into that, that, uh, dispute on how the ballot should be worded that much. I, I, I was feeling extremely tired that night but, and it was, uh, well, I was tired of talking so I just kind of accepted the ballot as

01:35:08.790 - 01:35:34.279

it came out the next day. Uh, there's one thing else that I, I would just like bring up and, and all this and that is when I think back on the resignation and everything, the Masterson, I, I know personally from faculty mem members, I've talked to

01:35:34.720 - 01:35:53.350

that very close friends in Masterson that, that they were planning trips to Chattanooga to talk to him calling him long distance. And I really think that that had more effect on Masterson than anything else. This one guy I talked to and I, he told me not

01:35:53.359 - 01:36:09.250

to tell anyone this, I realize this isn't gonna be divulged in two years. But I still don't want to mention his name. Uh He told me that, that, uh, he's one of the older professors here that, that, uh, he had talked to Masterson and that, that,

01:36:09.279 - 01:36:23.109

uh, a lot of other people have been talking to Masterson and I got the feeling from that, that maybe that, that had a great effect on, on Masterson's final decision because after all, when you're friends of a lifetime, call you up and say, listen, uh Bill

01:36:23.120 - 01:36:43.850

uh don't, don't come, uh you know, that could be stronger than, than any student demonstration or anything like that. I also tend to think the ballot uh was very, uh although it was never announced what the results were that the balloting was extremely uh strong and

01:36:43.859 - 01:37:03.029

this, this Masterson, uh I found out from someone told me that, that he had, he had learned what the balloting was and that this had a great part in his, in his uh resignation. Uh at that time, I also thought that that maybe the board kind

01:37:03.040 - 01:37:24.640

of understood the way things were and that, that they had worked it out with Masters. And in the meantime, I, I kind of think that the board has never budged from its its original position in this. And that, that the, the seven trustees and just never,

01:37:24.700 - 01:37:42.759

absolutely never would have reneged on the appointment in any way. Uh, it would be bad for them to, to renege on the appointment, uh, from the standpoint of leave Masterson out in the cold and that it, it would have to come from him. And, uh, you

01:37:42.770 - 01:38:05.390

know, that's where it did come from. What did all this experience teach you? Uh, well, uh, tell me what a university president is. I'll tell you that he's a guy who's caught in between a board that looks at a place as a sort of financial institution,

01:38:05.399 - 01:38:25.410

uh, who members who really feel that just, justly, I suppose that they're giving all these bright students a free education because I think the facts or something like we, we pay actually 1/7 of, of the cost of the education in tuition and the other 6/7 is,

01:38:25.419 - 01:38:40.689

is given to us, uh, by the board. I think that's how some board members probably feel about it here. That the other side he's caught between are all these, the faculty and the students who the thing they cherish most more than anything else is freedom of

01:38:40.700 - 01:38:59.790

speech and, and, uh, uh, having a say in things and when you've got two groups like that and you're caught right in the middle, you're in a tough job. That's why you don't feel in sympathy with anyone who has it really. Um, the other thing is

01:38:59.799 - 01:39:15.390

what I I mentioned earlier, which is just this idea of, you can write down on paper anything you want to about one group having a certain amount of power and one group having another amount of power. But if, if they do it strictly by the paper,

01:39:15.529 - 01:39:33.339

you know, and just, just one group yield throws its power around as much as it can. The other group throws its power around as much as it can, uh, say, like the board, uh, using its legal right to pick John Doe for president of the university

01:39:33.350 - 01:39:50.970

if they want to and forcing upon the university, that things are just not gonna work. Right. And, uh, it's not really the proper way of going about it. There's, there's something else that's got to be in there and I think that that was really what was

01:39:50.979 - 01:40:09.779

lacking in, in the whole business. The, the idea that, well, the board had, had raised the hopes of the students and faculty when they appointed that committee and then they ignored that committee and, uh, by doing that, they just kind of crushed everything that had been

01:40:09.790 - 01:40:26.649

built up before and a lot of people, we're disappointed more than anything else, I guess. Well, I certainly appreciate the time you've taken, uh, here at the end of the, the school term to, uh, come in and talk to us at. Uh, well, I don't know

01:40:26.660 - 01:40:37.330

if I did you any good. It's, uh, II I think you have uh some deep insights for young men your age and I, I certainly wish you the best of success in your, in your new presidency and I'm sure you're going to enjoy it. Thank you.

01:40:37.339 - 01:40:39.669

I'll need it. I really will.