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Today is June 20th, 2022. My name is Kevin, and I'm with the Houston Asian American Archive. Today I have the pleasure to be talking with Bruce Wang, who is a doctoral student at Texas Tech University, and he has

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been featured in various media outlets, such as the Houston Chronicle and Al Jazeera, as a Chinese cowboy. So thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to talk with me today. No problem, Kevin. Glad to be here.

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So I'll start off with a few questions about some of your early experiences. So you grew up in the city in China called Kunming. So can you kind of tell me about the city and some of your early childhood

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experiences? Sure. I–I mean, the city I came from- it's the capital city of Yunnan Province, and yeah I grew up in that city. I lived there until I was, like,

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15-16-ish, and then I moved to central China for high school. Yeah, but the city where I came from, it's a middle city, in China, but when

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we say middle over there, it typically means like a few million people in terms of permanent population. So yeah, that's the place where I came from. Pretty much a more

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or less a concrete forest. Yeah. So when you are growing up in Kunming, what kind of expectations did your parents have?

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I mean, I probably think they–they never thought you would kind of take on this, like, Asian cowboy identity. Well, I mean, definitely, like a lot of Asian parents, they––I mean, my mom, mostly because I was mostly

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raised by her. Like, she would have certain level of expectation, like in terms of how well I did in school, but it's not like very unbearable, right, like––so like, pretty much as long as I can pass or getting some like, B or

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C's, and sometimes– sometimes she's just happy about it, and my mom––well, actually my step dad right now too like––caus' for them, as long as I don't break the law, and I can find a way to feed myself and they're happy.

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So yeah, I–I think it's kind of interesting to see this–this dynamic where like Asian parents over here, like, some of them, they–they still put a lot of school pressure on their kids, while in China some parents are actually

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getting a little bit more liberal, and really don't put that much emphasis on their kids' formal education, but maybe their experiences in–in a sense of say, what they're trying to put into their kid's life.

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So as a child, then, you know, growing up in Kunming, would you say that you were happy? Did you ever face any like hardships of any sort? Well, my mom, for–for the most part, like, you know, she's a single parent, so there's definitely the challenge

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over there, but for other parts, I–I mean, I think it was kind of fun, especially during my primary school year, but in middle school, that was when, you know, I started to get a little bit more rebellious, and–and that

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was also when, you know, you hit puberty and all of a sudden, like, you know, everything, right, and, yeah, so in junior high, I actually dropped out junior high for like, one year, caus' I really did not like the exam system like so

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basically, in–in China, like you take two big exams, which would determine which high school you would go to and later on, that would determine like which university you would go to, right. So for the high school entrance exam, that's the

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one that you're gonna' to take when you're in junior high, and apparently, I was not a big fan of the educational system over there, and I was getting quite rebellious and, yeah, dropped out of junior high.

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Yeah, and but after one year, like a few of my classmates at the time they went––they actually finished Junior High, but came overseas, I think a few of them––one of them went to the

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UK, and probably a few of them went to like Europe or here in the States, and like I was––like growing up, I loved to watch things like National Geographics and the Discovery

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Channel right caus'–caus' I think there was this Taiwanese company that would translate everything from English to Mandarin, right, and some of the TV stations in mainland China, they would buy licensing from probably the–those Taiwanese companies,

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and–and the mainland China TV stations, they would air these shows for kids and stuff. I mean, since I–I was a kid, like I was, you know, fascinated by, "Oh, how would people live, you know, outside of

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China, right, so, yeah, that–that was one thing, and like my mom, she used to subscribe to this journal where it's just basically photo essays around the world about different

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cultures, and when I was a kid, like there was, at least for a few years, that was a big part of my life, where I just couldn't wait to, you know, receive the new journal and just flip through it and see pictures of different people and

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different continents. So, yeah, in junior high, I was quite rebellious, but, you know, learning that some of my classmates were going overseas, I was like, "Oh, crap.

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Now it seems like I needed to, you know, get back to school in order to, you know, be able to go somewhere else." So went back to school. Yeah. And then went to a

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offshore Canadian High School in central China. Wuhan actually. Yeah, I went–went to Wuhan for three years for–for high school over there. It was a Canadian offshore High

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School, so most of our curriculum, they were taught in English, and we learned about like, Canadian history, but we also learned, you know, things like science, calculus, where it's like, natural science, where everybody shares

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the same thing, right, so yeah, after that––so upon finishing high school, like after about half a year or so then I came here to the States. And you mentioned you’re kind of rebellious phase in junior high.

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So during that one year period, could you share with us I guess, what you were doing during that time, or did you just kind of take like a break off? Well, I mean, I–I guess well, most of the time I was––well, I

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worked at an advertisement company that my uncle had back then, right, so yeah, helped them organize stuff or just passing on files, you know, like little things that you would do as an intern.

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So I worked over there for like two months or something and I was tired of it––didn't like it that much. And I––well actually, one of the reasons or you could say excuses, I used back then to

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get out of school was I felt our education was more like factory work, right, and you–you were being filled up with all this knowledge where you don't have a good connection with

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whether it's––especially things like, you know, math and physics. Besides, you know, punching the numbers, I–I think more or less would be a deeper understanding between you and the mathematical

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or physical reality that you're trying to understand. That takes time for you to reflect on whatever principles that you learned at the time right, but it just felt like we didn't have time to do that, and same thing with, you know, chemistry

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and back then I was also getting interested in like psychology, right, so––yeah, for––I worked at my uncle's company for like a few months for like about two months, and then I quit, I was like no, this is not something I wanted to do.

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And yeah, I just spent quite a bit of time you know, reading and learning English as well, and in terms of how I learned my English like, I was quite rebellious towards the way my English teachers were teaching me right like

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it's always okay you listen to this, you––simp-like somewhat memorize an article or memorize some vocabularies, and then take your exam, and–and to me, that's frustrating too caus' once again, you

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don't have that good connection with the language that you're learning, right, so yeah–yeah, like those things kind of accumulate over time it was like, well, I don't want to do school anymore.

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A–actually similar things actually happened to me when I came to America, right, during my undergrad years, it was––there was a similar situation where I was an engineering kid, but I just felt I was becoming more of a human

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calculator, you know, rather than say, let me have a better understanding of, you know, physics and math and that sort of stuff, right, so, yeah, caus' initially, especially for people of my generation, right, like, growing up, we had

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this understanding where, you know, Western education is a little bit better, right, but it's kind of sad to say, but at least at an undergrad level, I don't think there's much of a difference between like here and China, right, so yeah

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in–in my undergrad years, I–I just for–for the most part, especially when I was an engineering kid, I–I didn't like the stuff that I was learning. I mean I like the topics.

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But, once again, you don't have that good philosophical and thoughtful connection with what you're learning and the grade that you're getting, right, so yeah, I was–I was quite frustrated with the educational systems and like, both here and over there in

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China, right, caus' at least–at least for me, I came over here hoping that things would be a little more different, but I–I think fundamentally, like, well, formal education is formal education, and it's–it's quite similar, at least,

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between China and America. So would you say that the initial immigration to the US or your initial arrival to the US was kind of motivated by, you know, education?

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Yeah–yeah–yeah, it–It was mostly motivated by education, and, yeah, but like, o–over time, just intellectually, especially when I was an engineering student, it was just––it was like, intellectual it's not fulfilling,

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and plus you find, you know, girls, you know, and parties, right, and so, all of the things are combined, it just feels like you're, at–at least to me, there was a period of time I

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was not growing holistically as a student. It's like, either, okay, well, let me work on school stuff and forget to be what being a human being feels like, right, or, like, okay, let me, you know, go–go to all these parties, and then getting

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horrible grades from my report card. So, yeah, you––I–I think that–that balancing is not really, you know, well taught, either here or over there in China.

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So, when you came to the US, what sort of culture shock, if any, did you experience when you–when you first came, and how did they kind of compare to your expectations of the US that–that you had previously?

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Oh, well, caus' initially, I went to Oklahoma, right, so I–I mean, like, you know, growing up you you watch these Hollywood movies, and you either see, you know, the Midwest, you know, cowboys, Native Americans, or,

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you know, New York, San Francisco. So, like Oklahoma, kind of, well, it has a little bit, you know, of–of the Wild West, but it's not that wild, and like, I was kind

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of anticipating to see cowboys and Native Americans, but that didn't really happen, right, so and I–I guess the biggest thing––the–the hardest thing to adjust was food. Right, like back then, there was a period of time that I put chocolate

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pudding on my burgers for about one and a half years. I mean, it may sound it may sound gross, but I mean at the time that–that's what helped me to kind of build that transition between Chinese food and an American, right, so

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yeah, food was–was–was kind of hard to deal with. Let me think––what, and more or less you feel this cultural barriers, you know, between you and the local people, and especially your local students, not necessarily like the

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older population, because they're often friendly, very friendly from time to time and just like you're all in the age group, to me, it was more or less a little bit hard to, you know, have relationships with, say, American

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students, and I think probably for the first two and half years––for the first year, I lived in this–this bubble of Chinese students, I guess, you know, like overseas Chinese students, and I feel like, well, I didn't come over here to meet Chinese people like,

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hey, if I really wanted to do that I could–could just stay in China, and then next year, I expanded to other international students, right, like, and that kind of went on for maybe two years or

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so, or even–even when I came to Texas, which was like eight years ago, my roommate was from Africa, or like once I learned that he spoke French, and he was from Africa it was like, not a problem we're my roommates, right, so yeah

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so there was a period of time that I had a lot of international friends, but after I came to Texas, act–actually, for the first year and a half, very strangely, I had lots–lots of African friends, I–I guess, mostly because my roommate, and

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yeah, I guess that's–that's kind of a transition before the whole cowboy thing, right, but eventually––well, it was a time when the oil industry was really bad, right, and some of my African friends, they were Petroleum Engineering major, like,

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including my roommate, right. So i-it was a hard time for them, but––which also meant they had the time to, you know, come to our apartment and sit down and have conversations, right, but then eventually, many of them,

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you know, graduated over time, and yeah––and like the–the industry, the oil industry as a whole just got better. So they just, you know, vanished one by one. So after that–that transition,

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then I started to realize, hey, like I–I haven't made many friends, like, in terms of like, say, American students, right, so that–that was another transition. And, you know, before we get into the whole cowboy thing, which you briefly

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touched upon, you know, you first went to Oklahoma, and then you later transferred to Texas Tech University, where you pursued Multi-Disciplinary Studies, and you received a Master's in Mass Communication/Media

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Studies, so what kind of––I mean, you touched on this a bit earlier, but can you describe, again, kind of what caused the shift in academics, and what Multidisciplinary Studies entailed?

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Well––that yeah, that's a–that's a good question. So, well, this multi-so before I switched my major to multidisciplinary work or–or slash interdisciplinary studies,

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I was an engineering kid, and I was getting ready to drop out of college and leave America for good caus' I mean, like, well, apparently, America was not providing me what I was looking for as a–as a young man, right, I wasn't think-even thinking

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about even going to some Caribbean countries, you know, and start a business that I had no idea what I gonna' do it, right? So yeah, but at–at the time, my mentor, that's the guy that appeared in the AJ+

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documentary––like he told me, "Hey, man, just at least finish your undergrad, right?" Like, here's––it's fine you don't want to do engineering, but here's this interdisciplinary, you know, major, where you have three minors instead of one

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major, and I thought, well, maybe that's not a bad idea, right, so that's why I went with that major, and I also did one of those tests that you're gonna' take and–and the results would tell you what kind of career that you

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should have. So I took those tests like twice and both came out––both results came out and indicated I should be doing something related to media, right, so I was like, "Oh, yeah, media

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strategies, then there it is, that will be my minor––one of my minors right." And I–I took enough math classes like I took two more and it could be a minor, and then––I mean, with engineering, I think it was similar situation,

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but I–I just didn't want to do it like it was–it was too much, right, so, math and integrative studies by itself is a minor that you would have to take if you decide to use multi-disciplinary study as your major, right, so

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there-there's that, and after graduating, like, I was able to kind of slowly build my way into the cattle industry. So worked as a cowboy for maybe like last a year or so

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before I went back to school for my master's degree, right. A-actually the–the cowboy thing actually yeah, I was thinking about the other day the whole cowboy experience was the reason that––the reason why that I wanted to

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stay here caus' before going back to school for my master's degree––before me deciding to say, hey let–let me apply for master's program. Yeah, I was actually thinking about leaving again, right, caus'––well,

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at the time, you know, like horizontal comparison, right, like some of my primary school classmates back in China, they already had, you know, relatively stable jobs. And from well, whatever pictures they posted on WeChat, right,

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felt like––well, they ate a whole lot better than what I was eating, right, so I just–just, you know, once again, I–I didn't feel well, you know, maybe America was not fulfilling my dream, even though I didn't even have a very clear picture

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of what that dream is, right, but at the feedyard where I worked at, you know, the place where I started to gain a cowboy experience. I was taking pictures at the same time, right, and this one night, I was just looking at pictures and

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stuff, you know, so the cowboy, his family, and everything, and at that time, I was like, well, you know what, let me stay a little bit longer and–and see what this cowboy thing would do to me. Right? Yeah, otherwise, I think you know, probably

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after–after, like, caus' after you graduate as an undergrad student, you have like, one year of optional practicus-practical training. After that one year, like you have to leave.

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Right, like I was thinking, yeah, after that one year I'd–I'd be gone, I'd grab my ass and leave, right, and––but it was that cowboy experience was like, well, okay, yeah, maybe I should try to, you know, stay here for a little bit longer,

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right, and back then I wasn't very clear about my intellectual interest in Media Studies, Mass Communication Studies, yeah, but yeah, at the same time, you know, applied for grad school, right, and that’s––and eventually, like,

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here's where I am right now. So, you know, can you tell me more about the moment, if there was like, an exact moment where you thought that, hey, I should, you know, become a cowboy, you know, or–or

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take on this southern accent, this identity? Yeah–yeah sure. I mean, i-it was during a time, you know, well, we're kind of going back and forth along my

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memory lane, but––so, it was during a time when I just decided to switch my major from engineering to interdisciplinary studies. Right, so during that semester,

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my appendix was about to burst, so I had to––towards the end of semester––so I had to go to the emergency room, but at the hospital, I–I had the chance to kind of just enjoying the quietness, you know, let the quietness kind of

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surround me, and I remember this one day where the clouds were getting thicker, you know, outside of my window, and then just raindrops started to tap on the window too, and just feel this sense of

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dark just started to close on you––close on the whole hospital building, and that was, I–I guess one of the moments that I was thinking, well, maybe I was very judgmental towards American society, which I didn't know much,

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right? And I shouldn't–I shouldn't be doing that, right, and also at the time––well I a-actually run out like, i-it's kind of strange to say that I do go to church, you know, once in a while, right now,

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but I used to go to church like more often when I was a, you know, an undergrad student, but I'm–I'm not really a–a Christian, you know, in a sense of religion, but yeah, I–I think

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religion was one of the things that was kind of repelling a little bit strongly, you know, when I was younger, but personally what really helped me navigate all these difficult things a-as a young man who didn't have very––well,

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I have some sort of support system over here, and––but there were times that I ruined the support system as well, right, so––but yeah, but the philosophy of Buddhism that really helped me a whole lot, right, and especially

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say, this Buddhist monk that traveled from China to India, right, and got all of these amazing Buddhist scripts from India and took them all the way back to China, right, so I was thinking

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about, similarly, like, what kind of thing can I learn from American society, right, to kind of enrich myself and inspire others? So I-yeah, it was at around

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that time period where I was staying in a hospital and also, you know, started to get a little bit more into Buddhism philosophy. Yeah, and then I think that cowboy trans-transformation kind of came from that period, and

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also, during that time, most of my A-African friends, they were leaving, you know, mostly for jobs, or they were graduating. Right so, yeah, like, it wa-was a time for me to kind of, you know, reshape my social

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circle again. You know, when you say like reshape your social circle, can you kind of describe some of the most like meaningful connections that you've made, you know, as a cowboy?

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Oh, sure–sure. I mean, one very meaningful relationship I have, well, I still have the relationship with my mentor, who was the guy who, you know, was in the AJ+ documentary. Not the cowboy mentor, but the–the

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white guy who is, you know, talking about “Oh, Bruce is going through some kind of, you know, identity shift or whatever,” right, th-that's the guy caus' we've known each other for almost like 10 years. Right so like he knew me

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before for my cowboy transformation, and also, after my cowboy trans-transformation, and he was also the–the guy who drove me to the Western Wear store and got––where I got the first pair of cowboy boots, and first cowboy

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hat as well. Right caus', I–I mean, the first time when I put the cowboy hat on, man, I mean, it's a lot of conflicting feelings, right, like–like, on one hand, man this is cool, this

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is badass, but on–on the other hand, like, I had a lot of regret as well, you know, like, well, I judged his culture so much that why–why did I do that, right? Why wasn't I opening my––opened up my eyes, you know, to a

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culture that was a little bit more judgmental. Right, so yeah, there–there was that. Yeah, I guess–guess that there was a-also, you know, a strong,

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meaningful relationship, right, like me and my mentor, before and after the cowboy transformation. And another guy. His name is Sam, you know, like, we used to hang out when––so I––when I switched my major, I pretty much stopped

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taking classes from the engineering department, right, and then to, you know, other department on campus, and in this one class, I had a classmate of mine that we had a good relationship, and like we would go on, you know, different

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bars on like, Tuesday, Wednesday night and even drinking, and you know, flirting with women, you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, but like his family.

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Well, he's not a cowboy, but his family––I guess most people over here like their families, you know, have more or less a agricultural roots right, like similar–similar to, I–I guess China too right, like a lot of urban population right now, they actually have a strong connection with rural

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roots. Like over here, I guess it's the same thing, but especially for–for his family. So he was kind of showing me around things and, you know, like, lending me, you know, cowboy hat and cowboy jacket,

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yeah that attire and stuff kind of helped me and plus, you know, we were kind of imagining ourselves as Jackie Chan and well, what's the other character's name in that movie where they travel around the world for like, 80 days?

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Yeah, so–so that movie, right––like, eventually, you know, this whole cowboy thing was––I was just thinking, well, maybe this is just for fun. You know, like, the accent thing would be for fun, too. I wasn't thinking to stick with it so much, right, but then the

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more I learned about it, the more I immersed myself in the culture, I realized, hey, this is one of the, you know, cultural heritage, and also linguistic heritage as well, in America, that a lot of people they're just not really paying attention to.

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So, you know, from like, a cultural standpoint, you know, you speak in this like Southern drawl. So can you kind of tell us about how you developed this–this like the southern accent, and what exactly is, you know, distinct

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about it? I guess in your words. You–you mean like what makes southern accent–accent like quite special for me? Yeah, or like, you know, like, from a verbal standpoint, or to you like, why is the Southern accent important,

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and maybe how you developed the accent, as well. Okay–okay. Yeah. I mean–I mean, first of all, I–I thought it was just funny, you know, like, I–I think a lot of Americans, they think it's funny, too.

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And as a dang foreigner, I think it's–it's funny as hell, as well. Right, but, yeah, so I started to, you know, learn like a few words here and there, and I feel like, well, this actually sounds a whole lot better than your, you know, standard American accent like to me,

00:32:52.670 - 00:33:07.590

right. It's–it's soft, it's gentle, and it–it sounds very friendly, right, and there's actually researched on this, like, yeah, Southern accent is, you know, one of the friendliest accents among the English language, compared

00:33:07.590 - 00:33:21.890

to say, you know, the British accent. Like, yeah, they may sound smart, but they–they sound cold, too. Right, so like Southern accent––yeah, it's–it's not. It's not like that. A-and plus, if you think about the stereotype

00:33:21.890 - 00:33:34.470

of, you know, Asian people, right, and I was thinking, well, if I'm an Asian person who has a thick southern accent, how would that make people feel? I was very curious

00:33:34.470 - 00:33:44.550

about it, too. Right, so like, I just, you know, starting to spend more and more time learning, you know, how to master the accent. Yeah, so there's that.

00:33:46.720 - 00:34:04.330

A-A-And speaking of, you know, culture value, I do think it is one of the most important linguistic heritages you know, here in–in the States caus' I–I think America sometimes, it takes on this label

00:34:04.330 - 00:34:19.830

where, you know, America doesn't have culture, which is not true in every human society, or even animal societies they could have culture and not to mention human societies, right, so a-and I think, you know, the southern accent

00:34:19.830 - 00:34:37.470

is just–just a blender a mixture of part of American history, right, like as––like back then there were, you know, Irish immigrants, German immigrants, and African Americans, Native Americans, right. Everybody was here, and

00:34:37.470 - 00:34:52.080

also you–you have your Hispanic immigrants as well, that everybody kind of blended together, and that's how everybody sounds like eventually. Right, so yeah, i–i-it is a great reflection of a certain

00:34:53.280 - 00:35:08.610

history of America, but sadly, you know, like it's been not recognized or how are you gonna say that let me think. Like, i-it doesn't have enough recognition, right a-and positive recognition

00:35:08.930 - 00:35:26.140

among people, and it's been as often associated with, you know, people not smart, or just people not being, you know, educated well, which I'm–I'm not saying it's not entirely, you know, false, but it's not entirely true either.

00:35:26.670 - 00:35:40.250

Right, so––and plus, you know, racism a-and just a lack of willingness to accept new things, right. That's all the bad things that's associated with the accent, which,

00:35:41.400 - 00:35:56.570

from my experience is just not really that true. So during your transformation into a cowboy, did you ever have any doubts along the way, where you thought, oh, maybe I should give this up and do something else?

00:35:57.360 - 00:36:14.760

Oh, yeah–yeah. Like, during the tran-well the transformation came with learning the accent at first, right, so I think it probably took me about two–two and a half years to actually feel really comfortable, you know, speaking

00:36:14.760 - 00:36:27.570

with the–the accent. Yeah, and there were times like, when I still–I still sound Chinese like, regardless, right, and from time to time that could be a little bit discouraging,

00:36:30.870 - 00:36:45.390

but–but, and y–you know, well, first of all, there's nothing wrong sounding like a Chinese person. There's nothing wrong sounding like anybody, right? That's the thing. Right, so there's nothing wrong with that, and

00:36:45.390 - 00:36:58.910

second of all, I get it––I think I–I have to kind of keep reminding myself hey this is a process that you're gonna go through. If it works, hey, it works, and that's great. If it doesn't work, hey, whatever, you do something else.

00:36:59.500 - 00:37:19.870

Right, so with the learning of the accent, we kind of went through that–that spiral, where, like, for a certain period of time, I feel good about myself, and for some other time, I feel like crap, and when I started to do

00:37:19.870 - 00:37:35.840

the cowboy stuff, it's–it's a very similar process where there are days like you feel like oh, man, I'm badass, and I'm literally whooping ass, right, like, you–you whoop your–your horse ass you

00:37:35.840 - 00:37:51.260

whoop, you know, the cow's ass? I mean, of course, you don't do them like very often write––you–you stress out the animals too much. Yeah, but yeah, your–your date, and like, let–let me think, yeah, and there are days that you get on, you know, a

00:37:51.260 - 00:38:07.470

tractor or loader and bobcat, you know, you just feel like, man, I am the man, I can do anything. But there are days that you run into a situations like yeah, that would really question, like–like a situation where the cows they

00:38:07.470 - 00:38:22.710

just don't want to work with you, or the horse she just doesn't want to listen to you, or just machines that just breaks down at the time then that you–you need it. Right, so tho–those types of situations that it does make you question

00:38:23.430 - 00:38:40.790

a–a lot, right, and also there were things that you're being taught, but for some reason, like it's just not processing in your brain, and that's frustrating for both–both you and whoever is training you. And,

00:38:41.290 - 00:38:57.160

you know, can you tell me about your time at the Cochran county feedyard as a cowboy and some of the, you know, like essential duties that you had while you were there. Yeah, I mean, essential duty, I say,

00:38:57.160 - 00:39:15.020

you know, 50% of what I was doing was like cowboy work, going on a horseback check–check on cattle, or sometimes, you know, the feed department, they need help, caus' well machines, they break down all the time, and sometimes they would, you know, need

00:39:15.020 - 00:39:30.140

help over there, and that's what I did for about 50% of my time, but another 50% I was making media content for the feedyard, you know, like videos, photos, that kind of stuff, and while I was

00:39:31.360 - 00:39:47.950

in my Master's program, right, so besides–besides like, the regular work that I was doing for, you know, the cowboy work and media production work, I was also working on my Master's Thesis.

00:39:48.480 - 00:40:04.420

Right, so yeah, I was––it was quite stressful. It was––yeah and it also it was one of those times that you would question to yourself, like is this cowboy thing really for me. Right, so, yeah, that's yeah, just

00:40:04.420 - 00:40:22.110

mostly in terms–in terms of jobs, just 50% cowboy stuff and 50% video/photo stuff, and during my master's program now on top of that, you know, classwork or–or

00:40:22.110 - 00:40:40.250

thesis hours. Yeah. So, in the end, you know, once you underwent this transformation, how have people, you know, reacted to your like cowboy identity in like China and the

00:40:40.250 - 00:40:54.130

US? Do the reactions differ at all or are they kind of similar and supportive? I–I think it's very rare to see a person who is not supportive from either side, right?

00:40:54.130 - 00:41:04.850

Cause, initially, it was one of my concerns like, well, you know, would people over here in America, would they think it's inappropriate? Right, like, what people in China think is inappropriate?

00:41:06.350 - 00:41:22.690

I mean I'm sure there are people who think like that, but they're a very–very small portion, among the majorities who would just say, well, this is–this is cool, right. This is–this is cool, it's something that I–I might not do, but I think it's cool.

00:41:23.200 - 00:41:39.030

Right, so that–that–that yeah that's kind of interesting, I'd say the shock mostly, you know, just came from the initial interaction. Right, so like after that point on, then I think it–it comes more down to the personal level, like

00:41:39.570 - 00:41:55.210

how you handle yourself, how you conduct your behaviors, which would be not too different from you know, other communications or interactions that you would have with another person, whether the person is a cowboy, or not, right.

00:41:57.250 - 00:42:10.420

You mentioned that the reactions are, you know, mostly positive for the most part, which is good. If they're––you know, were––I'm assuming there were maybe a couple negative experiences, would you be willing to

00:42:10.420 - 00:42:27.020

share maybe one of those or–– Sure–sure–sure. I mean, let me think. Like, negative experience, like, specifically–specifically towards my cowboy identity?

00:42:27.920 - 00:42:44.300

Yes, correct, or, you know, any negative experiences along the way? Yeah, there–there was this one time, like, at a student fellowship center, you know, this guy he was not very happy, you know, like, seeing me in cowboy attire,

00:42:46.170 - 00:43:05.320

but–but his friend, like, kind of quickly pulled him away, you know, say, “Hey, like, stay out of this, this whole thing?” Yeah, I think that was a close personal encounter, where, you know, things could be a little bit more dangerous, and, I mean, online I've

00:43:05.320 - 00:43:16.560

seen some mean comments, you know, about me being a cowboy. I mean, that's online so, you know, whatever. Yeah, on the internet, you know,

00:43:16.560 - 00:43:29.830

once in a while, they would say, oh, this guy, you know, wants to be, you know, American so bad, you know, whatever, but it's only a five minute documentary, or, like, I don't expect everybody to know me that well because

00:43:30.150 - 00:43:48.760

of five minute video, right, so, yeah, they're–they're–they're those things, and once in a while, you got a fan that––that's a little bit, you know, crazy, you know, and, yeah, once in a while that–that type of thing happens as

00:43:48.820 - 00:44:05.370

well, but–but o–overall, it's–it's not too bad. It's good to hear that, you know, you're mostly getting support, which is really good. I have a question about, you know, your cowboy identity and maybe your non-cowboy

00:44:06.240 - 00:44:18.240

self. So, if you're speaking in Chinese or if you're speaking with, you know, your Chinese friends or parents, do you ever put aside, you know, this cowboy identity or this like Southern drawl?

00:44:18.760 - 00:44:31.910

Is there ever feel––a feeling of dissonance between these two selves, your cowboy self and your non cowboy self? To–to me, not really, but–but I imagine, you know, to–to others, it would be quite shocking really.

00:44:31.910 - 00:44:48.270

And like, well, in this minute, you're this cowboy and in the next minute and then you're someone who is not often associated, you know, with a–a cowboy identity. Right so there-there's that, but I mean, to–to me personally, naw,

00:44:48.480 - 00:45:06.280

not really. And like and even––caus' my aunt she speaks like fluent Spanish, right like and she had some communication with the cowboy who trained me as well. He's gettin-, he got used to, you know, listen to me

00:45:06.280 - 00:45:23.050

speaking Mandarin to my family, like all the time, and, you know, he also got a chance to talk to my aunt and you know everything and just I didn't feel anything that's, you know, not a balanced picture like to me personally, I-I'm

00:45:23.220 - 00:45:39.980

pretty sure for some outsiders like, whoa, this is a little bit too much, right? Now I'd like to move on to a few questions about your family and personal life. So do you have a significant

00:45:39.980 - 00:45:58.090

other, and if so, how did you meet them? Oh, I–I do have a girlfriend, right, like she's–she's also in the PhD program, right, so we met via––well, we actually had some conversations, you know, here and there caus'

00:45:58.470 - 00:46:19.300

our office areas, it's pretty much the same, but then we went to an art show, you know, and that's when we kind of started dating or starting from that point on. And then, do you have any siblings, and if so, are they in the US?

00:46:20.110 - 00:46:33.790

I–I do have a few half siblings, and a step brother as well, but–but I've never met them in person, and they're not here in America to my knowledge.

00:46:35.230 - 00:46:47.120

Okay, I see–I see. So you were an only child then growing up? Yeah, pretty much–pretty much. Gotcha, okay. So, now I'll move on to a few questions about

00:46:47.560 - 00:46:59.240

your perspectives on, you know, current issues and topics. So how would you feel, you know, especially as this, like, Asian cowboy, how do you feel about the intermeshing of cultures?

00:46:59.870 - 00:47:15.370

You know, some examples I can think of are like, you know, Chinese rap or metal music drawing up–upon like Hindu imagery. So from like a more personal standpoint, have you ever thought about infusing Chinese culture with your cowboy identity, and do you think

00:47:15.370 - 00:47:27.750

certain aspects of culture should stay isolated from each other, or do you think they're able to be meshed together, or do you think they should be separate? Honestly speaking, I–I think it really doesn't matter.

00:47:28.420 - 00:47:46.500

Right, like th-that's how human societies in general you make progress, when you mesh things, you know, when you mesh things together, like even say, for Chinese culture, where, like a lot of things where we perceive as you know, very

00:47:46.500 - 00:48:01.970

Chinese, its origins probably did not come from China. Right? So, yeah, I think meshing things is great, and have this you know, phenomenon

00:48:03.590 - 00:48:16.850

where different cultures, you know, integrating with each other. I think it's–it's a good thing. What would be dangerous is well, not according to me, according to you know a–a Jewish scholar that I

00:48:16.880 - 00:48:26.670

cite a lot in my papers. His name is Harare , a professor who–who teaches at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Like according to him, like,

00:48:27.940 - 00:48:44.320

what-what's really dangerous is when people start to say, you know, pure, you know pure American, pure Christianity, pure Chinese, pure Japanese, you––when you start to have this–this concept of purity, a-a-among

00:48:44.990 - 00:49:01.420

a society that's–that's when you––when things get a little bit dangerous, right, o-otherwise, you know–you know, having mixed cultures, I think, more or less, it's a necessity, you know, for, especially today, you know, for us

00:49:01.420 - 00:49:14.670

to–to make progress going forward for–for any society, right? It doesn't have to be American society. I-It's the same thing for China, if China wants to, you know, keep moving with its economy and it's the same thing for

00:49:14.670 - 00:49:34.100

India, and, you know, other major economies around the world. Do you think that cowboys have a future in the US? Well, honestly speaking, I think as a culture image,

00:49:34.800 - 00:49:49.100

yes, but as a career, I'm feeling doubtful. Yeah, I'm feeling doubtful. Caus' like right now, right, there are already less and less cowboys here in America.

00:49:50.040 - 00:50:06.620

From what I know, right there–there are probably more people moving out than people going in. Right, i-it's hard work and sometimes, you know, you don't get paid very well? Well, depending on the areas, right, depending on

00:50:06.690 - 00:50:20.680

ar-some––in some companies, they pay you really well, in some companies, not–not so much, but it's–it's very demanding on your body, right, and I've heard there were cowboys that have missing fingers because of roping.

00:50:21.320 - 00:50:38.910

Right? So yeah, i-it's very physically demanding, and knowledge demanding as well, right? Like, caus' you're dealing with an animal that has its own brain, and four legs that enable it to move around.

00:50:39.590 - 00:50:55.790

Right so yeah, like, it can be dangerous, you're dealing with large mammals, either your horses or cattle, they can be lethal, right? They can be lethal caus' horses and cattle, if I remember correctly, they-they're

00:50:57.030 - 00:51:11.460

ranked as number three, in terms of animals, that––number–number one or number two, like that kill people here––just here in America. Right, so can be dangerous, and

00:51:14.030 - 00:51:34.250

in terms of technology, what would concern me is, you know, like some of the jobs––some of the cowboy jobs, I could see, you know, more or less, maybe replaced in the future, and in terms of animal protein production, what concerns me

00:51:34.250 - 00:51:51.380

is this technology called cultured meats, or–or lab grown meat. So instead of raising a live animal where you butcher it and–and get its meat, you will––you grow meats in these

00:51:51.630 - 00:52:06.520

laboratories, right and if the technologies become-becomes more, you know, market–market available, and to my understanding it's going to save a lot of resources, or it's going to save, you know, water, it's going to save feed

00:52:06.520 - 00:52:23.730

input. It's con–controlled environment, right? It saves other energy, right, you don't have to deal with animal carcasses. Right, so yeah, to–to me that–that's a very big future challen-challenger for the meat

00:52:24.000 - 00:52:36.170

industry in general, and actually, in Singapore, they already legalized the sale of cultured meat. Right, so like, it may have over here. In America, I see a lot of pushbacks,

00:52:37.390 - 00:52:57.100

right but it may happen over here in America, and I mean, it's developing in Israel, and probably a few European countries as well, right? So culturally, you know, you say that, you know, this cowboy

00:52:57.140 - 00:53:12.290

identity or cowboys will persist, but would you yourself, like to see cowboys persisting not just culturally, but also, you know, as like an actual profession, or is just like the cultural image enough?

00:53:14.050 - 00:53:30.080

I see, well, I–I mean, still, I think, in–in terms of being a culture image, the cow-cowboy image, it will persist, but in terms of actual career, like, especially in agriculture, and right now, I mean, you know the war going

00:53:30.080 - 00:53:48.750

on between Russia and Ukraine and grain prices are super high, right and, you know, gas, diesel prices are really high, like, during the pandemic, it–it was already hard for a lot of beef cattle producers to–to make it, right?

00:53:48.750 - 00:54:06.110

And right now, I really can't imagine like how much they–they need to deal with, right, so, and actually, Four Sixes–Four Sixes it's you know, one of the largest ranches over here in America. They were sold too, right, and

00:54:06.110 - 00:54:23.190

you start to see this, you know, older generations of cattle producers, you know, getting out of businesses, and maybe some younger generations would come and take over their place, but they don't necessarily raise cattle or

00:54:23.190 - 00:54:41.540

they don't raise as many cattle as what the land used to–to hold. Right, so there's–there's the–the challenge over there, but y-yeah, in general, in agriculture, you know, cowboy as a career, I think it may still go on maybe for a

00:54:41.570 - 00:54:56.610

few–a few more decades, but in terms of where agriculture eventually go, especially if you need to think about things like vertical agriculture, right? Like where––once again, you have a closed system that will save you a

00:54:56.610 - 00:55:12.320

lot of production inputs and that–that is going to challenge you know, how we produce meat, how we produce crops, right, and also how we consume meat as well, right?

00:55:13.030 - 00:55:32.830

Caus' you also have this dialogue that–that's been going on both, you know, here in America and in China like, hey, we're not supposed to eat so much red meat, right, so how's that going to change the whole meat market, and

00:55:32.830 - 00:55:45.860

eventually, you know, comes down to impactin' cowboys? Caus' you know, I mean, during–during pandemic, we could feel that––we–we could feel like this––whenever our bosses are feeling stressful, hey, we're feeling stressful

00:55:45.860 - 00:55:59.150

too, right like, prices for–for live cattle. They–they were horrible. Right? They were really horrible. Right? So yeah, it just, to me, for

00:55:59.150 - 00:56:16.720

some–for some people, it may be sustainable, but with the way things are going, especially production cost, right the land prices are more and more expensive, too. So even for existing ranchers, would they

00:56:16.720 - 00:56:31.360

be able to––w-would they be willing to you know, stay and raise livestocks and, you know, forget luxuries they wouldn't have in city lives. That's in––that's very questionable, right, and like, actually,

00:56:31.490 - 00:56:46.690

statistically speaking in both China and America, depopulation in rural areas, it just it happens like year after year, right, and it happens right outside of our city limit, here in West Texas.

00:56:49.200 - 00:57:05.450

I think you've definitely provide very important––great insight and perspective into the whole cowboy profession, especially as the years go on, but you know, growing up in China and then immigrating to the US, how

00:57:05.450 - 00:57:15.710

would you identify yourself now? Do you call yourself like Asian, Asian American, American, Chinese, and do you think these, you know, racial demarcations even matter?

00:57:18.050 - 00:57:36.970

Personally, I mean, I have conflicting views about this, like I would––I–I think, I would place my identity–my identity as a researcher first, but that goes beyond like any other labels and probably cowboy, right,

00:57:37.240 - 00:57:56.200

and like, the second would be, you know, cowboy, and then maybe, you know, Chinese or Asian American, whatever, a-and plus, technically speaking, I'm not American yet. Right, so like–like to me, when I came to this country, that was not my ultimate goal, where like, well you know,

00:57:56.390 - 00:58:09.910

only in America I can like––I didn't have that––I still don't have that mentality where, you know, like, I can only do this when I'm here. Right, like I think you can do many other things, and achieve many other things in different parts of the

00:58:09.910 - 00:58:26.060

world, right, that–that–that vision of American dream, it–it could be––it could be everywhere. Right, like, I still hold similar views, right, so there-there's that, but a-another thing,

00:58:26.440 - 00:58:39.500

I mean, on–on one hand, I do understand, you know, this–this whole conversation in American society about identities, they're very important. They are, right? Like, you–you could

00:58:39.500 - 00:58:54.190

argue, say, hey, you know, like, we're not racist, and but via different studies, you know, African Americans, they're–they're persistently victims of many other things, right, like before–before we see all of these news reports

00:58:54.650 - 00:59:10.520

about, you know, African Americans being shot by law enforcement, that thing has been known for, you know––has been known in psychology for decades. Right so, I–I mean, in terms of research, yes, this–this identity,

00:59:10.780 - 00:59:27.890

this conversation is–is important, you know we–we need––we do need to be more inclusive, but from another train of thought, or another philosophical approach, I think this whole conversation about identity on myself, I

00:59:27.890 - 00:59:42.570

don't put a lot of value on it. Right caus' once again, Buddhism has been a–a big, philosophical part of my life, and in Buddhism philosophy,

00:59:43.100 - 00:59:58.240

you don't place that much emphasis on identity at all, right, and actually, you don't place that much emphasis on you know, the concept of self at all caus' if you really think about it, like what–what is self?

00:59:58.740 - 01:00:11.120

How do you define self? Like, is it us talking to each other? Right, like we're being our true selves? Right or is it the moment we goes––go to bed and go into our

01:00:11.120 - 01:00:28.540

dreams? Right so from–from that standpoint, I think maybe the conversation is not as important as what it is for maybe other people that's just to me––like, to me, that's not my primary

01:00:28.620 - 01:00:44.700

concern. Right, not–not my primary concern, but as a society, you know, as a whole, I think, yes, the conversation about identity that's important. On the topic of identity, what are your perspectives

01:00:45.460 - 01:01:02.780

on the rise in anti-Asian sentiment and violence, then? And do you have any perspectives and ideas on how to combat the rise in this aforementioned sent-sentiment? Yeah–yeah I mean, to–to me, the thing is, like personally,

01:01:02.840 - 01:01:20.710

I've rarely–rarely experienced, you know, any, anti–Asian, you know, incidents, right. I mean, even though there may be a few minor incidents that could be anti-Asian, but can I really tell if they're doing that because I'm Asian or just

01:01:20.750 - 01:01:36.730

because you know, they're pissed off or something else. Right so it's to-from my perspective, it's–it's, like, where I live, it's kind of hard to tell, and–and, by large, it's you know, really not an issue–an issue

01:01:36.730 - 01:01:51.060

for Asian people over here, in West Texas, you know, but I imagine in bigger cities, i-it could be a huge issue, especially where, you know, there–there are big clusters of

01:01:51.680 - 01:02:11.180

Asian American communities, and maybe I'm just assuming right, like, I'm just––I could be wrong, or like, decades of misunderstandings between Asian communities and other ethnic communities, right and during pandemic, and, you know, things just became more intensified.

01:02:11.850 - 01:02:26.900

But like, over here in West Texas, where you don't have like, huge cluster of Asian communities, we only have like one Chinese church here in town, and every time I think they probably only have like, what 20-30 people

01:02:26.900 - 01:02:41.490

congregating with each other. Right? So with that scale, I think it's–it's probably hard to, you know, manage hatred, but like, with–with a much bigger scale, I–I mean––I'm

01:02:41.680 - 01:02:56.660

imagining it could be, you know, bigger problem, but from my experience, I haven't experienced, you know, much in terms of, you know, anti-Asian hate crime, right, a-and my perspective is that

01:02:59.670 - 01:03:14.810

once again, it's a little bit conflicting, you know, like, on one hand, I–I think having this conversation about, you know, hey don't––what–what if I just, you know, be nice to everybody––don't co-commit stupid crimes to–to anyone, right, not

01:03:15.030 - 01:03:32.150

just–just Asians, but on– the other hand, I do question, you know, if these protests and the conversations,––even the conversation we're having right now, does it really help? You know, if someone really decides to hurt does

01:03:33.350 - 01:03:48.840

the–does this type of conversation, you know, really contribute to the mechanism or any factors that will stop it from doing harms to other Asian people. To close off our interview, I'd just like to ask, do you have any advice

01:03:49.790 - 01:04:04.980

for individuals who are maybe, you know, especially since you're an Asian cowboy, or who has kind of developed this identity or has went through this kind of transformation, what kind of advice do you have for individuals who are

01:04:05.270 - 01:04:20.990

maybe interesting-interested in closing the gap between cultures or trying to, you know, bring people of different cultures together? Well, I–I guess just, you know, I mean,

01:04:20.990 - 01:04:39.460

once again, at a social level, it's important to have conversations about identity, but at a personal level, I-I'd say, you know, just don't stress too much about it, you know, like, caus' whenever you live with different people, like, every morning, when you wake up, I

01:04:39.460 - 01:04:53.010

don't think your–your conversation to yourself is like, oh, man, I'm Asian, right? That's–that's not–not––that's not the first reaction you have when-whenever you look into the mirror, right so, I mean,

01:04:54.490 - 01:05:09.390

if you found something that's, you know, a-attractive to you about another group of people, I mean, just go ahead and don't be afraid to be you know, labeled with different things by other people caus'

01:05:09.940 - 01:05:23.030

eventually you'll be labeled, you know, one way or another. Right? It doesn't matter. Right so, yeah, don't–don't be afraid to–to be labeled, and don't be afraid to, you know,

01:05:23.030 - 01:05:39.800

re-receive, you know, negative voices about who you are and stuff because e-eventually like why does it matter? Right, so like, yeah, people can–can talk shit about you, but eventually, like, every–every night you go to bed,

01:05:40.760 - 01:05:55.450

that's you. And then–then you go into your dream, and then that's you, and eventually, even then is–is it––even say, you know, you go to–you go to bed, you go into your dream. Is–is it really still you?

01:05:56.160 - 01:06:15.840

Right, so––yeah, I just––I say don't take yourself too–too seriously, you know, like, just be––it sounds very cliche, yeah, but be open minded, but we all–we all perceive ourselves as open minded, but I'm sure there are

01:06:15.880 - 01:06:30.910

times that we're not open minded. Right, so yeah, be–be cautious about these grand narratives that we have of ourselves about our–our own culture groups. Right, like on one hand, yes, you're building some new

01:06:30.910 - 01:06:43.680

narratives, but on the other hand, if you can do it, do it if you can't hey, not–not a big deal, don't–don't stress about––don't stress out like too much.