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My name is Nori Guthrie from the Woodson Research Center Fond and Library at Rice University. I am interviewing Bruce Bryant. Today is Wednesday, January 31st 2018. This is part of the Houston Folk Music Archive, oral History project. Can you tell me about your early life? Well,

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I was born in uh Austin, Texas, November 10th, 1942 World war two and grew up mainly in Austin moved, uh my father was a uh at the time was a, a crop duster. He was a pilot. Uh My mother and father were both pilots. Uh Although

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my mother did play a mean blues uh piano also, she was pretty good at Boogie Woogie. She was Miss Austin many, many years ago. Uh but we moved to uh Carrizo Springs for a while in, in South Texas and and also lived in Harlingen. I guess

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the next thing I would tell you is that as we, we moved to San Antonio after my sister, Mary guest had polio and lived there for my elementary school and starting in high school. And my father pulled us all out of school. We took a ship

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from Houston. We stayed at the rice hotel for three days and then took the Virginia Lakes to uh Italy and as a, a freighter passenger freighter and we lived in Spain for a year and a half and then returned back to the United States. My family

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settled in Austin but because I was going to school in San Antonio, I stayed in San Antonio. Eventually did move back to Austin. Started uh uh working at KT BC. My first memory of, of music, folk music in Austin was that there was a, a little

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coffee shop called the, I heard some uh really good music there for the time. And I remember dragging one of the folk singers down to the TV station and recording some songs and then offering them to my uncle who was uh had a show called uh

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the Cactus Pryor Show. And it was on Thursday night. I remember he rejected those offers, but I did have a, I was in a singing group, the a cappella urban industrial singers. And that was uh just me and a fellow named Bill Greathouse. We sang on

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the show every week but it was a commercial, usually a commercial at the time. There was this uh Ray Charles sings for coca-cola Spot. That was before you were born, I'm sure. But uh so we did uh the a cappella urban industrial singers sing for two

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J's Kentucky Fried Chicken. And I remember we did a song called We Don't like chicken. But if we did like chicken, we'd probably like two Js and we were fired, uh, after we did that. So we, and that hurt because we were making $14 a week

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for doing those commercials, which we split that money. But we sang around Austin and uh on campus and we did uh at bars and, and once we opened for out at uh Zucker Park and that was probably the highlight of that little group. Anyway, uh that's,

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that's my early life. So you kind of talked a little bit about how you entered the world of broadcasting. What ended up bringing you to Houston? I had a chance to go to work for uh K PR C channel two, the NBC affiliate in Houston and

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that was in uh January 1965. And I also knew that K Pr C was going to be working on the Apollo uh series and, and uh the Gemini series uh at NASA. And so I thought that would be pretty cool. And also I was working at

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uh KT BC in Austin, $40 a week for 40 hours. And sometimes you'd have three split shifts start off in the morning, uh sign on, then go to uh school, come back, do a mid midday show, maybe go back to school and then come back and,

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and work that night. So, uh at uh K PR C where I went to work in Houston, I was hired for $90 a week, which I thought was a wonderful thing. And then right after that they bumped it up to $100 a week and I thought

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I was rich. That's pretty good. Um, what was K pr C like in the mid 19 sixties? Well, K pr C was on South Post Oak Road. Uh, the Williams Tower is there now, but that we were approximately located right there. It was, it was a

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funky old building that was, uh, had a real sense of, of family to it. Uh, the owned by the hobby family and they, they really treated their employees well. So it was, it was very, it was a relaxed atmosphere. We were still, you know, television was

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young, that's 15 years old when I came pro approximately and the Galleria was not even thought of at that time. It was just Daisy Fields. I remember there was a bar across Post Oak called Space City. And, uh, we used to joke that after the 10

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o'clock news, uh, before the station break was over at the end of the 10 o'clock news, the headsets would be swinging on the cameras and we'd all be having a beer. Um, so what were some of the shows that you worked on in those early days

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when you were at K PR C? Well, we, I was, came as a camera operator. So, uh, I worked on every show there was, uh, you know, we had a show called, uh, Mary Jane's Magic Castle, which was on in the afternoons. Mary Jane Van Der.

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There was skip, the clown was on that show. Uh, Scott and Vivian Holsman, uh helped, uh on that show. It was, it was a fun show with a lot of wacky characters. Uh trying to remember Mr, uh Mr Green Sleeves or Mr Green anywhere for, I

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forget a wonderful fellow, uh talked about plants and such. But we did the news. I um uh later started directing and, and doing uh just uh signing the station on, you know, running the commercials and things. And then eventually I got to direct something, the Jenny

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Pace show, which was a noon time show. And Steve Smith had a five o'clock show at that time and he asked that I direct that which is my first real break getting to do a, a show that wasn't that new. I'm trying to think of other

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shows. Um There was some evening shows we did uh a, a bowling show on the weekend. We take a bread truck with a couple of cameras in it and got out to a bowling alley and Paul Bos, uh who was a famous Houston wrestler would uh

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was the host of that uh bowling show, uh Two cameras, black and white, you know, it was early, early days and it was fun. We were still making it up as we went along. Did you um, did you end up kind of falling in with the

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holtzman's at all and connecting with because, you know, they were part of that early folk music scene in Houston. I, you know, I was, I was seeking out places, music places in Houston from the first time I got here and I, I came across a place

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called The Family Hand. It was down on street and there was some wonderful folks there, Mike Con uh, Eric Taylor was a dish, uh, washed dishes there. They had a sign that just won me over. It said, uh, you know how some people have a sign

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that says, we, we, we, we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. And at the family hand, they had a sign that said we reserve the right to serve everyone with dignity and love. I thought that's pretty cool. And they also had a music. I,

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I remember hearing, uh, Matt play there and he was just a sweet, sweet kind man. I can't remember Lightning playing there, but I'm sure he did. There was a fellow named Richard Butcher who was, uh, would take care of any kind of, uh, he was a

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volunteer, he would take care of any kind of mechanical problems they had or set of audio and things. And on Sundays we started showing uh, uh horror films and scary movies out on the back patio and eating popcorn and drinking beer and having a good time

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we do that in the summer time on the weekends and I would bring those movies and I did not take them from the, uh, channel two film library. Well, maybe I was like, how, how would you have acquired this? What's the statute of limitations? I think

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it's ok. I'm sure that they got them back. Yeah, they did. But, um, anyway, I like that place and, and there were, there was a place called the Jazz Bird on Shepherd. I think that's the first time I saw Lightnin Hopkins. And that was, you know,

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we fell in love with lightning at that time and thought we'd always have Lightnin Hopkins. He was, he was just such a wonderful performer eventually. Uh Let's see, there was a jester which was a cool place and also uh the old quarter down on Austin Street

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downtown. And I would go down there and, and see uh uh Guy Clark and Frank Davis and different people performed down there, Dale so far was running that place. Uh I think uh Rick Rex Bell may have uh worked with him. Dale had a dog named

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Pup. Did you, do you, did you go to the jester very often? Because that, that's, that's one of the places that's really kind of lost to a little bit lost to history. I say that I didn't, I, I went there a few times but that was

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not my late night out. That makes sense because I think it was kind of dying around 65. So that was, you know, I may have caught it up the tail in. Yeah. Um, so then you ended up, uh, directing the Larry Kane show. Um, can you

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talk a little bit about that? Uh, well, Carry Richards was the, the director of that show and he did a job. The show was, uh, syndicated in nanny markets around the country. Uh, it was, it was much, it was like the Dick Clark show, but not

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quite, but still very popular show. And it was a lot of fun. I got to uh, say carry came to me and said he was, he had another obligation and asked if I would direct the show, uh at least for a year. And I said, I

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don't know if I could do that. He said, no, you can't, you know, you, you can do it. And so I did and I, uh real name was Harry Lieberman. He's an attorney and, uh, and uh, we hit it off right away. And so we would

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plan the show. We had, uh when record companies would have people, performers come to Houston. Um, they would be on the show. We were, uh the show was live in, in Houston. I believe it started at noon on Saturday. And then they would send out copies

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of the show around the country for the syndication purposes. And I guess, you know, the show was beginning, I don't know, it was, music was changing and a dance show was not, didn't quite fit, you know, some of the new music. And I remember one day,

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uh this fellow wandered into the studio to be one of the performers and he was Michael Murphy and he had a, uh a new song called Geronimo's Cadillac. I thought I liked that song a lot and, and that was sort of the beginning of, of the

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end for the Larry Kane show. Although it went on for a couple more years, uh with, when uh carry came back to direct, we kind of talked about the shows that you were working on and kind of this interest in the music scene. And so when

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did you kind of bring those things together a bit more other than there was a Larry Kane show that you worked on. But when did you kind of bring that together to kind of start promoting Houston music? You know, I never thought of it as, as

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promoting Houston music. I was just so into it. I'm trying to think of some of the places there was a place called Theodore's. There was a place called uh Dome Shadows where a guy named Roy Head would play. That was, that was hard rock and roll,

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not, not uh folk music, I guess in, in the right about 1969 my landlady uh was named uh Pat Pritchett and uh her husband Joe had a real nice old house and I lived upstairs from them. She said she'd been working down at this place in

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the Montrose and had good lunches and she was the cook. And so, uh, she invited me down to, uh, Anderson Fair, which, uh, and she gave it, by the way, Anderson Fair, uh, was just a little, uh, Spaghetti house and it was small and, and, uh,

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but people were, were, uh, hanging around. Guy Clark would come by in the morning for breakfast and, and uh anyway, they had great spaghetti and it was cheap. And uh so I liked the place I remember Don Sanders was playing there and uh for tips, you

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know, at lunch. Bill cade several, several different performers. And um that, that was, I don't know why I took to the place so quickly and so much, but I really, really liked it. They had musicians and when I ever, I had a chance I would try

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to, by then I was directing, I would try to get them on television and I was not just limited to Anderson Fair, but that was the place that was special to me. So, what kind of, um is this kind of what ended up leading you to

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making the little old show? Um I think so. I think the, um, well, here's what, how the little old show came to be. I noticed that back in, back in the day, in the mid seventies or early seventies, we would sign the TV station off, um,

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in the evening. And on Saturday night, the last show was on at midnight and it was, uh, Monty Python. So they signed off, I mean, at 12 30 right after the show. And then I got to thinking, and somebody said, you know, they, they pay everybody

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until one o'clock. And so there's, there was a little bit of time there, maybe 24 25 minutes. So I went to Tom Reef who was the program director. And he was open to the idea that if, if we did a short show that would still still

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get us to sign off by one o'clock, it wouldn't cost the station any money, just a little bit of effort on, on my part. And that, that would be OK. And he, he always uh was very supportive of any new initiatives and uh gave us the

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go ahead to do it. And he suggested we just call it the little old show that comes on after Monty Python. And so that's how it started. Then all of a sudden I realized, well, you know, I've got to fill this time with something and fortunately,

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uh I knew a lot of musicians and so we would uh feature different musicians a from around the area. We also uh had uh films filled from, from Rice. Uh I had worked with uh James Blue at the Media Center at Rice and so uh people

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would make experimental films at Rice and, and I would put them up on the show. Also, the University of Houston had some films that these are shorts, you know, and student films. And then uh my friend uh Jim Barham would uh decided it would be fun

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to help. And uh that was wonderful because every Wednesday Jem and I would have lunch at the purple cow restaurant and uh where you could get a meal for, I think a Dollar Jim's a wonderful filmmaker and we would record the show on Wednesday night. So

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starting about noon on Wednesday, Jim would say, well, got any ideas about a film and just about every week he would shoot edit and create a film between noon and seven o'clock. When we would tape the show, these films could run anywhere from 30 seconds to

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2.5, 3 minutes. They were, uh they didn't make a lot of sense, but neither did the little old show we would do. Uh anyway, that was a lot of fun. And Jim, Jim was uh a great talent and we became close friends and worked together for

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decades. Um We would do disclaimers on the show, you know, um views and expressions and, and opinions on uh this program are not necessarily those of the uh staff and ownership of uh this television station, nor should they be held responsible for anything that might occur

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on this program. And would, we would drag these, uh, uh, disclaimers on for a minute, minute and a half and we would do letters and they were all negative about the show, you know, you call this stuff a TV, show. You know, I've seen better, better

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stuff on TV. But we, and we had comedians, uh, that were, uh, local would come on and, and, uh, do wonderful performances and, and just shorts and they would do little bits. This is that we were doing bits before Saturday Night Live. And uh you know,

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I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV. That kind of thing. Fellow named Pat fan who started uh uh the whole revolution over at Klol Radio uh would uh create a spots, you know, comedy spots. They'd be usually in the form of a commercial

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because we didn't have any commercials. Nobody wanted to buy time on that show. At least at first later, we, we actually had a few uh commercials but we did things uh and we had support. George Lewis is an NBC uh producer and reporter nationally. Uh did

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a little bit for us and I remember him, he, he was standing there with his microphone, his NBC microphone. He sang, I'm usually straight. When I watch the little old show, he said, watching the little old show, straight is kind of like listening to the Houston

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Symphony with earmuffs. And we would take clips from, from um old films I remember one of our favorite little clips that we ran a lot was um, an old cowboy and a, and a young boy riding and riding out to a bluff and looking over a

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field of, of cattle grazing, grazing as far as the eye could see. And the cowboy would look down at the little boy and say that's good grass, Billy. We just cut it there. Um We also um went a little too far one time. We uh we

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did a little homage to uh War of the Worlds. We had uh some, I think it was Bobby Henson was playing with his jazz trio. We did, we had blues and jazz, but mainly folk music and we put some static on, on the screen and then

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we hear a voice and talking, it was uh from the Intergalactic Space Council. We cut to a projector. The slide went in one moment, please, but it was upside down and we pulled it out and put it back right and, and uh basically the message was,

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you know, get your act together or, you know, we were fed up with the way you're treating the earth and you and all your wars. And then we just ended the show with no credits or anything. Went right to sign off at the end of that.

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And believe it or not, people took it seriously. There were enough people out there, maybe our audience uh just, you know, was gullible enough, but I'm not sure. Anyway, we, some people were very upset, Mr Jack mcgrew at the station received a, a letter from the

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Federal Communications Commission and uh so we did an apology and, and they forgave me and let me continue the show. And I remember saying, you know, we apologize for upsetting everyone and, and we will in the future, we're not going to do this kind of thing.

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And if you have any other comments, just please send them, you know, to the level of show uh in care of the Intergalactic Space Council. So around the same time that you had started the little old show, you also were working with Dee Brown and Charlie

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Hargrave to create the sweetheart of Texas concert Hall and Saloon, right? How did it? I don't know how you pa doing both of those. But um how did that also come about? We thought it would be a lot of fun to have a music venue. We

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thought there was a, there was a, a, a niche between uh liberty Hall which I think could seat about 500 people and Anderson Fair, which held about 7500 if you, if you grease them up real good and shove them in there. And um old quarter was

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down the street from our US and it, it said even fewer people than Anderson Fair. Charlie found this location which was before us. It was Ray Rogers Club, Bojangles down in the uh old Magnolia uh brewery on Male and Franklin. And it was below, you know,

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the uh street level, you had to go down some stairs before it was Ray Rogers Club Bojangles. It was the Buffalo Bay. You flea market, you go by there and they had, you could buy jewelry and stuff like that. So we just thought that would be

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great fun and uh decided to give it a go. We didn't know any better. We had uh musicians help us uh build the stage. Remember Marty Smith from Dogtooth Violet, uh helped build the stage. Marty's not Marty passed away a while back. But uh uh we

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were forever grateful Ray Rogers, uh who's a friend of mine lives in Franklin, Tennessee. Now had it uh looking really good. They had uh plastic on the floor that could light it from underneath. It was more of a disco kind of thing raised a wonderful entertainer,

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but that didn't fit the folk music uh theme for us. And so we took all of that out with permission and made it a little bit more rustic uh in the saloon part of the place. We had a uh a huge uh table made from a

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giant cable reel. Back in those days, every hippie apartment had a cable reel for a coffee table and they have would have a cinder block uh shelves, cinder blocks with pieces of wood for shelves. And so we found a, just a gigantic cable reel and that's

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how we got it down there. I don't know, but we managed to get it down to the saloon part of the, of the, uh, venue. We had homemade lights. Very crude lights. Anyway, the place, um, was fun and we had a, had a, a lot of

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people enjoy it. Lots of, lots of different Texas musicians played their, uh, Dogtooth Violet was with my favorite. They were wonderful Wheat Field. Denim from Austin. Uh Don Sanders. Oh, I don't want to get a list. I'll miss somebody. Eric Taylor. Uh Lynn Langham played there.

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Lucinda Luci. It was on a Saturday morning and we were mopping up and cleaning it up and this young woman came in and said she'd like to audition. And so, and I were there and we said, sure. And so she sat down and pulled out her

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guitar and sang a couple of Bob Dylan songs in that wonderful bluesy voice that she has. And so we, we hired her and, and she played that night, I believe, I think she opened for Bill. But, um, don't quote me on that anyway. She was great.

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We had Kenneth Red Gill and the Velvet Cow Pasture Band from Austin. Kenneth didn't know, um, he didn't know about sets and, you know, he was from Austin and, and I'm from Austin. So we never really got a set out of him. He would just play

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for a little while and then he'd say we're gonna take a pause for the cause and, uh, they come right back up and start again. Clifton Shane, the king of Zydeco music. And his band was, I guess the biggest cash, cash outlay for us. And, um,

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uh, we were scared to death that we would be able to, uh, pay him and sometimes we'd have to dig into our pockets. And luckily Charlie and I had good jobs at the TV station. So sometimes we use that money. But, um, they packed the place,

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you couldn't get another person into that place. I know we were breaking, you know, uh, fire laws all over, all over the place. That's the time that one of those nights we had for two, maybe it was a Saturday night, Mike Con stopped by from Liberty

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Hall just to kind of check how we, we were doing. And I remember acting in casual and saying, you know, this is kind of like it is every week. Of course, it was not like that every week. Sometimes we'd be out on the street trying to

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get people to come up and down. But, uh, anyway, it was, it was a lot of fun having that place. We'd give, we'd do a giveaways from the stage and we'd, we'd have a beer drinking contest and the kind and it would be, you know, for

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a pitcher of beer, the winner and it was not how much beer you could drink at all. But, uh, the style with which you consumed the beer and we would vote. You know, the people would vote. And quite often I would give away, uh, the bandana

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that Paul Newman wore in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid. I gave that bad dad away at least six or seven times. And I also gave away the bandana that Willie Nelson wore and Honeysuckle Rose about six or seven times. No one asked any questions. Oh,

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yeah, they were. And, you know, we, we give it away like, uh, well, sometimes I just say does, they may want it and then, yeah, then we give it to them or I give it away if they had a picture of their mother in their wallet

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or if they had a picture of a, of a pet, like a dog or a cat in their wallet. And, uh, anyway, we, we had a lot of fun with that place. There was a Bill greathouse. My, my buddy from Austin was a, uh, correspondence art

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artist and we had a little, there was a little room in there. We call it the chapel, but he would put, uh, artwork and do art shows in there. And a lot of people didn't understand that art, but it was, it was way ahead of his

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time as was Bill. So the sweetheart of Texas was open about a year and a half a year, about a year. What, what kind of came, why did it come to an end? Well, uh, it came to an end because, uh, I guess a lack of

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energy. It was, we were downtown. So when people, people had to, uh, usually pay to park down there financially, we were taking a huge beating because we were paying way too much money. I think the Liberty Hall paid about a third of what we did for,

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uh, rent and they could seat 500 people and we could see 100 and 50 you know, same deal if we pack them in. I'm not sure. And poor, I think poor management probably did us in. We, we were horrible, uh, managers. We had no, uh, no

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business plan at all. And we gave a lot of our, um, beer away to our friends and because our, uh, employees didn't make any money, we paid them $5 a night. They felt it was ok to give beer to their friends and which I don't blame

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him a bit. Our, by the way, our, our president of the sweet Texas was Joy. Lou Allen, who's the Friday night bartender at Ederson Fair? Anyway, every once in a while I get the urge to open up another place like that. But if I could find

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a brick wall and run my head into it really hard, that urge goes away. How did you come up with the name for the sweetheart of Texas? Lone Star beer. Um, and my friend Henry Shoemaker who distributed Lone Star beer at the time offered us a

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lot of stuff that we would name it. The Lone Star Salute. But I was, I was just smitten with the idea of calling it the sweetheart of Texas. There's an old, old cowboy song and it goes like there's a, I see, I've got a sweetheart down

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in Texas. Prettiest gal you've ever seen, She's a flower of Belton and the rose of Colleen. So that's where that name came from. And I, I think that's the best thing we had going for us. Although in this, in the summertime it would get pretty hot

00:36:08.280 - 00:36:25.020

down there. And Dee Brown who really ran the place. He, he was the guy that was there every day. Uh, Charlie Hargrave and I had our TV jobs and so we'd, we'd be there when we could, which was every night, but sometimes it'd be pretty late

00:36:25.030 - 00:36:47.399

if we were working late in the summertime, sometimes they would call it the sweat hog of Texas. We had issues with the place. Um, it always trying to, uh, make it, uh, not smell like a beer joint. People smoked at the time back in those days.

00:36:47.699 - 00:37:07.070

And, um, and they didn't only smoke cigarettes either. We'd have to right in the middle of the show. We'd have to, you know, walk down and confiscate somebody's smoking something illegal and we'd have to take it out on the back patio and dispose of it. Somehow.

00:37:07.510 - 00:37:26.739

I remember one time Steve Holt was playing there and he did a wonderful show. He was just, I had, I never met him until he came to play, but we'd heard a lot about him. We just didn't know what a great performer he was, but he

00:37:26.750 - 00:37:51.429

was in the middle of, uh, the Texas Trilogy. One night, I think he had started with that number and Jimmy G's restaurant upstairs, their kitchen backed up and so water started coming out of the ceiling and, um, onto the stage and onto the lights and the

00:37:51.439 - 00:38:15.030

lights started sparkling and crackling and, and Steve just, you know, was it like the trooper? He is, he just kept on playing. We had, we had lots of issues, uh, like that when, but the, you know, the audience was pretty forgiving and it seemed to pull

00:38:15.040 - 00:38:35.149

us all closer together. Ah, ah, I also remember we sell beer for, uh, 50 cents a beer and a pitcher was, I guess, a dollar and a quarter, a dollar and a half. It was a really a, a great deal. And we had draft beer in

00:38:35.159 - 00:38:57.689

the salud, which was next to the, the concert room. And people would ask for all manner of exotic, uh, draft beers, which we would always give them. Although the only draft beer we had was shiner and a lone star and we just give it to him

00:38:57.699 - 00:39:13.280

and, and we get it, they'd say, well, now I had the shiner and I had the, uh, the whatever and OK, we change the glasses around and give it, give it to him like that. But it was all just coming from the same thing and I

00:39:13.290 - 00:39:38.179

don't think anybody ever, ever complained about it. We would have people like, uh, uh Towns Van s aunt who was a, uh, scary, wonderful performer come in and he would come in in the afternoon before the show or, or, or just before the show and they

00:39:38.189 - 00:39:56.370

would, he had guitar player, Mickey White who was the lead guitar and Rex Bell who's on bass. They were, they were quite an act themselves. They had a, a group called The Hemorrhage Mountain Boys, just the two of them. But the, they would back up Towns

00:39:56.379 - 00:40:11.969

and a fellow named Johnny guest, they just hung with him all the time and they would come in and bicker and fight and they would argue about everything and you, you would think that they just couldn't stand each other, but they actually loved each other quite

00:40:11.979 - 00:40:35.100

a bit. We had a special contract with talents and uh Charlie made the, made the deal and that was Towns was having some drinking problems at the time and sometimes we start celebrating a little too early before the show. We knew that. But for some reason,

00:40:35.110 - 00:40:52.260

we would have a case of beer backstage for them. When they got there, we did that for all the, all the groups and we tried to make the backstage very comfortable. We would put out uh, fruit and vegetables, you know, exotic things like celery with velvet

00:40:52.270 - 00:41:15.810

cheese in the middle peanuts. But the deal with towns was if he didn't fall off the stool, he was paid. If he fell off the stool, he didn't get paid. And once we made that deal, he never fell off the stool. We, we lasted a lot

00:41:15.820 - 00:41:38.030

longer than we should have. And the reason, even though we were a short lived club, Marty was called us the heartbreak of a club. Music critics in town. Bob Claypool, Dale Adamson took a liking to the club and, and would do an article every so often

00:41:38.040 - 00:41:59.159

to promote the club and we get new, new audience would come down there and there would be times when towns would finish and, and it'd be, you know, time to go. Uh, I think one o'clock was the time, you know, you had to stop selling beer

00:41:59.169 - 00:42:21.310

at one o'clock. And so everybody would leave, but towns would still feel like singing. And so we'd all the one remainder of us would go into the, uh, the saloon and the doors would be closed. But Bob Claypool and Dale Adamson and the regular group around

00:42:21.320 - 00:42:43.719

and towns and the guys would keep playing and it was, we had some beautiful music after the doors were shut backstage was, was interesting. We had a group called Spanky in our gang. Remember them? Well, they, they sent us a contract. We had lots of contracts

00:42:43.929 - 00:43:11.689

but their contract stipulated no green lights. And that's a good, good thing because it's not flattering to anyone and a comfortable sofa, uh, backstage. So just out of maintenance or, or for the fun of it, I signed the contract but I scratched out comfortable on the

00:43:11.699 - 00:43:34.610

sofa and they signed it anyway. And so, uh, they just played there that one time, another time we had, we, Rada Jack Elliott played there twice and he would, we would, uh, we would put him up at the, uh, hotel downtown. And one of the things

00:43:34.620 - 00:43:54.860

the hotel would do for us would say they had a large marquee and they'd say welcome, Ramblin Jack Elliott. And it was the musicians really got a kick out of that because it was huge. So the second time Jack came, he, um, got to the front

00:43:54.870 - 00:44:12.719

desk and there, there was a sign up there walking around, they got to the front desk and they said, uh, no, we don't have a reservation for you. And he said, well, you've got my name on the marquee out there. And don't you think that you

00:44:12.729 - 00:44:30.189

probably do have a anyway, we, we were never able to resolve that. We had to come get Jack and take him and put him up at the Holiday Inn on, uh, Allen Parkway or Memorial. And, uh, uh, it was, it was great fun when he would

00:44:30.199 - 00:44:46.540

play. And I, I remember him, he, he didn't like to have his photograph taken. He still doesn't while he's playing and he would get, he would you get Army if you tried to, you hear that click? And, uh, oh, Tony Brady would slip in a few

00:44:46.550 - 00:45:10.530

shots of him anyway. He used dynamics and, and his voice would sometimes get soft and I remember somebody said louder. He said, that's as loud as it gets. Vince Bell could, could fill the room and fill the whole stage with just this magic that he, that

00:45:10.540 - 00:45:32.379

he had. And it wasn't like one person was up there. It was like there was a full orchestra up there and he was another one of those performers that just blew everybody away. Lot, lots of memories of lots of wonderful evenings and not so much the

00:45:32.389 - 00:45:52.120

next morning going down there and cleaning up the restrooms and sweeping up, you know, the body parts and beard and things off the floor. But still, it was a lot of fun. So you had that and then you're still kind of doing the little, little show

00:45:52.129 - 00:46:09.750

at the same time. And then why did the little, little show come to an end? Is kind of like the early eighties, the little old show ended, uh, because I, um, became the creative service director for the TV. Station. It was uh a lot more on

00:46:09.760 - 00:46:30.719

my plate when you, when you're directing and soon as you finish the show it's done. You know, if you're directing the 10 o'clock news, 10 30 you're gone and you don't take it with you. But as a creative service director, I had a lot more responsibilities

00:46:30.729 - 00:46:50.739

and just felt like I couldn't do justice to the show or the station. So I talked to Tom Reef who was always supportive and he, he felt like that was a good idea too. I, I wish I had kept it up. I really, really do. Uh

00:46:50.840 - 00:47:16.929

And I wish we had saved, been able to save more of the shows. We lost a lot that when new ownership came in. Um this so they just didn't appreciate the history of that. We had, we had, I had tapes with John Hammond, Sonny Terry and

00:47:16.939 - 00:47:36.620

Bradley mcgee, Taj Mahal and those were all lost. Yeah. No, that would be really frustrating. It was, it was, it was hard big by my Thorton. Are those some of the ones that you just named kind of the ones that you really regret not having anymore?

00:47:36.629 - 00:47:57.489

Yeah, I lost uh the Dog Tooth Violet performance on the show. And when we did a final show, I tried to put a clips of everyone in, in the show and I didn't have one for them and that hurt a lot. So then what did you

00:47:57.500 - 00:48:18.919

start to work on after that because you, well, you said that you were becoming the creative director. So, what all did that entail? Um, well, that's basically marketing and promoting the TV, station and news product and all the different shows, the, uh, the, uh, networks, prime

00:48:18.929 - 00:48:38.679

time propaganda. That's what it was. I thought it was really important at the time. But you also did make, um, like kind of concert specials, correct? I did, I did some shows from every, every once in a while. I just couldn't get rid of the bug.

00:48:38.689 - 00:49:00.250

So I would do some, I remember I did one with love it. I did one with, uh, Steve from Leroy Parnell Shake Russell. I guess there were a couple of others. And then I also did a series of Texas outlaw comics and these were some pretty

00:49:00.260 - 00:49:21.300

funny Texas comedians. And, uh, they, uh, uh, Bill Hicks was one of them. They, uh, found their way into our late night programming from time to time. John Buffington was the, uh program manager at that time and he would slip them in and actually they did

00:49:21.310 - 00:49:41.639

pretty well got fairly good ratings on those shows. Little O show never really took off in the ratings. We would, we would get a three rating and I was always felt disappointed with it until Jeff Lee, who was the station manager, first part of that time

00:49:41.929 - 00:49:58.750

said, you know, a three rating in Houston right now. That would fill the Astrodome. So you had to think about it like, that, that many people watching, I thought. Well, ok, I like that. I mean, I, whenever people mention it they, they kind of think of

00:49:58.760 - 00:50:15.959

it and this is, like, really, like, this is a great piece of nostalgia for them, you know, when they think of. Yeah, whenever. Oh, yeah, the little old show they get very excited. It, it was, it was fun and it was, it was ridiculous and it

00:50:15.969 - 00:50:42.600

was not as, it was not a TV show. It was a, it was, um, just sort of happening and it was so irreverent and so ridiculous that somehow it worked for a certain segment of the, of the viewing audience. Others just could not stand it. But,

00:50:42.610 - 00:51:00.429

uh, uh, a lot of people enjoyed it and it was fun for us and, and it was fun to see what we were gonna do. I hate to say this, but we just did not have a lot of preparation for the show. I mean, and I

00:51:00.439 - 00:51:22.879

think that was part of the charm of it. That was so impromptu and so spur of the moment we would do, uh, here's something we would do. We did it quite often. I thought it would be funny if we would try to levitate a wooden chair

00:51:24.100 - 00:51:42.879

on the floor of the studio, we would get the people that had been on the show that night out there and explain, somebody would explain, you know, whether it was uh Scott Cloth who might be hosting the show that night, uh or Roger Ruffcorn was one

00:51:42.889 - 00:52:03.159

of those folks that would do it, that we with their help at home and with uh the concentration of the people that had been on the show, we were going to try to see if we could levitate that or at least get it to move just

00:52:03.169 - 00:52:25.939

a little bit and then they would begin and they, it would go on for about 90 seconds and it was with total concentration, total concentration and then they would fail. It never, never worked. And everybody was always disappointed, you know, and I just found humor in

00:52:25.949 - 00:52:44.860

that, that, that, you know, they were giving it so much effort. Somebody said one time, you know, I could rig that chair up so it would move just a little bit. I said, well, what's the humor? That's not funny? That's not funny at all. So, I

00:52:45.040 - 00:53:13.989

was, I had another, I don't want to tell you about, um I got a letter from KPFT, Pacifica Radio and back then there was no stereo television, but there was stereo FM and KPFT had received a grant um to simulcast the little old show. We would,

00:53:14.000 - 00:53:34.399

it would take a little extra effort on our part. We had a wonderful audio engineer. Um Alan Lily got several uh Bob Garden Russell Turner, Milton Bartholomew. They were all excellent and, and good at music. But Alan especially, he would take up the show and put

00:53:34.409 - 00:53:51.669

it on an eight track, which is about as far as we could go at the TV station in those days. And actually, that was down in radio station in the basement and we did the show in stereo uh for a couple of years until stereo television

00:53:51.679 - 00:54:08.669

came along. But, uh, we'd set up two mics and whoever was hosting that show probably was Roger Ruffcorn. He'd go over to the, to the mic on one side of the room and say, now I'm talking from over here, this, this, uh, ought to be coming.

00:54:08.679 - 00:54:23.020

If you're, you know, listening to the radio, it should be coming from the right side of the room and then he'd walk over to the other microphone and we would just do silly stuff like that, but it's made the music sound really great. Yeah, I would

00:54:23.030 - 00:54:46.870

think so. Yeah. Now, you had mentioned to me earlier that you had wanted to talk about hot air balloons and what, what, what, what is the story behind this? Well, I saw one morning, early in the morning I saw a balloon in the sky and this

00:54:46.879 - 00:55:08.560

was brand new to Houston. And to me, and I knew, I just knew I wanted some of that. I found out who was flying that balloon fella named Bill and got a hold of him and ask him if he could teach me how to fly balloons.

00:55:09.090 - 00:55:25.699

Well, it turns out you have to have a pilot's license just like, uh, you're flying on an airplane. Um, you have to have so many hours in the air, you have to pass a extensive written test. But he was an instructor. He taught me and I

00:55:25.709 - 00:55:50.449

got my license when, um, Ramblin Jack Elliot came, I knew he liked to sail in ships and he liked to ride horses and he was an adventurer. And so I offered him a chance to go up and he said, sure. So we went out to the

00:55:50.459 - 00:56:13.939

rainbows in balloon port port in um Jersey City and took off and flew and had a wonderful flight. And we ended up landing in this large field of cattle and they were interested in the balloon and they walk, you know, walked up toward us as we

00:56:13.949 - 00:56:37.429

slowly sat down. And Robin and Jack had a, a portable tape recorder, small one and he recorded them mooing and he recorded a lot. We eventually got the ball pack back up and raced in, back to the sweetheart of Texas about an, just only an hour

00:56:37.439 - 00:57:00.500

and a half late for the show. And he went up on stage and he entertained the audience for a good 10 minutes by playing that tape of cows moving. Eventually he got to, to uh sing some good songs too. Another time I was on a Sunday

00:57:00.510 - 00:57:18.860

foggy morning, I had a chance to, uh, take up Vince Bell and a weather, the weather cashier on channel two was Doug Johnson and either Vince or Doug drove up on a motorcycle. I can't remember which was, which I said, well, it's just too foggy Doug.

00:57:18.870 - 00:57:32.729

And he said, oh, it's gonna blow off. It's, uh, it's gonna burn off. It'll be by the time, how long will we be out? I said, maybe half an hour, 45 minutes. He said, oh, it'll be burned off by then. So all three of the blues

00:57:32.739 - 00:57:53.709

that were there that day lifted. And I remember it was beautiful because we were flying waist deep in the clouds and we could see the other two balloons behind us, but more fog drifted in and we lost the other two Linz. You couldn't see him. And

00:57:53.719 - 00:58:17.909

then after a while we started hearing traffic and I kept thinking, ok, that's, I had 10 and I didn't, it didn't want to come down because of power lines and fear of hitting something like that and, and dying. So I said, ok, Vince, you look that

00:58:17.919 - 00:58:40.939

way and if you see something, you let me know and Dougie looked that way and I look this way. And so we were running out of fuel, but we finally finally, uh, came down and we were not above traffic. We were just above some trees. So

00:58:40.949 - 00:59:04.409

we flew along the tree line just above the tree line until we saw this big beautiful uh field a house in the background. There were uh a couple of white buffaloes and some swans and we sat down there. This is the truth. A man came out

00:59:04.419 - 00:59:25.959

with a silver coffee service and came over and gave everyone a cup of coffee. Doug took it in stride. Like this happened to him every day, he just expected that coffee to be there. And after a while I of going in the house and meeting the

00:59:25.969 - 00:59:43.909

man and his family, I kept looking for, for Vince and I couldn't find Vince and I was a little concerned and I went out and the balloon was half deflated. Vince was inside with his hands behind his head, uh, flat on the ground, looking up at

00:59:43.919 - 01:00:01.929

all the colors of the balloon with the sun coming through it. And I was sure he was writing a song anyway, that those are my balloon stories. I, I courted my wife, uh, in that same balloon, took her up a couple of times and we once

01:00:01.939 - 01:00:21.780

landed in a, in a creek. When did you kind of start the idea or start thinking about, um, creating, uh, for the sake of the song, the Anderson Fair documentary. When did that kind of pop into your head? I guess, you know, it had been fermenting

01:00:21.790 - 01:00:44.780

for a long time. The fair meant so much to so many of us. I had, uh family in, in Austin, but, uh, didn't always have the chance to go, go visit on holidays, especially I might have to work or do a show. I would go to

01:00:44.790 - 01:01:04.350

the fair. They would have feasts and used to be on Sunday, uh, evenings and you could bring food or pay, I think by then it was $2 and have a wonderful roast beef. Or some, some of the feasts were, uh, utensil free. You ate with your

01:01:04.360 - 01:01:30.719

hands. But anyway, it was nice to have uh the other family around and it was, it was just a home for a lot of people. And there was so much music and so many memories and it was just a place you went. And so without knowing

01:01:30.729 - 01:01:54.550

it, I guess every time I went there, it became a stronger feeling. And then one evening in the, during the, I guess it was during the Christmas holidays, I was at my uh nephew's home. I didn't work at the TV station anymore. I was doing other,

01:01:54.560 - 01:02:12.729

I was still working but not there. I thought, you know, if I don't do it, if I don't do a film about the fair, it's not gonna happen. And that would be a shame, you know, a place is special if it's been open almost 50 years

01:02:13.050 - 01:02:32.199

and they've never had an employee, you know, there's something going on. So I mentioned it to my, my buddy uh Jim, what I was thinking of and he said I'm in because he loved the ferret too. And I, I remember Jim said, but damn, it, we're

01:02:32.209 - 01:02:49.929

gonna do it right. Um, because, you know, a lot of the things I do I don't do. Right. But he wanted to, he wanted to really take the time and treat it with loving care. And actually I did too, of course. And so we, we worked

01:02:49.939 - 01:03:15.209

on that show for, um, eight years, not every day, but we didn't have, ah all the money we needed. Um, and it, it takes some money. We were, we started off shooting with the camera that George Lucas used to shoot Star Wars, not the exact camera,

01:03:15.219 - 01:03:33.719

but that model. And by the time we finished that cost a lot of money to rent that camera. And by the time we finished, you could use the camera that cost 1 25th, what that camera cost and get the same quality. But, uh, Jim wanted it

01:03:33.729 - 01:03:50.889

to be consistent. So he, he stayed with that. And, uh, uh Jim by the way, is, is not only, uh, uh, not only shoots. Well, he, he's also a director and, and a wonderful light. He does it all editor. He can, he can edit. He, he

01:03:50.899 - 01:04:07.070

wasn't an editor, but we needed to do some to set it up for our editor. So Jim taught himself how to edit because he has that kind of brain that he can figure things out. I have ad D I could never do that. Well, we got

01:04:07.080 - 01:04:29.090

started before we, uh, wanted to really, um, Tim Leatherwood said, you know, Carolyn Hester is gonna be here and she wasn't touring very much, although she still is today. Uh, but she didn't get, uh, to Houston very much and it was a chance to, uh, record

01:04:29.100 - 01:04:49.489

an interview with her and she's a little bit of her concert. You know, she's, she's the, the Texas Songbird. She's who Joan Baez wanted to grow up and be, she was on the cover of Post Magazine and she was everyone, everyone's sweetheart. We, I think we

01:04:49.500 - 01:05:13.659

all had a crush on. I still do to this day. She uh so she granted us an interview that got the ball rolling. Uh The next interview we did was with Lyle Lovett and Lola gave us two hours and several songs on stage there. At that

01:05:13.669 - 01:05:36.330

point after that, after we had Carolyn and Lyle, we didn't get a lot of resistance from other musicians. It took forever to get uh Lucinda Williams. But we did, she gave us an 18 minute interview after she had shot uh Austin City Limits and those folks

01:05:36.340 - 01:06:04.330

helped us were very kind and let us shoot uh there in the dressing room of, of their facility, Nancy uh Griffith came down to Houston and did uh two benefit shows for the documentary and gave us an interview as well. The, the shake Russell did a

01:06:04.340 - 01:06:32.350

uh a benefit at a, at a home, a private home. And there was a, a woman named Kimberly Sterling and she runs a uh a wonderful company that helps nonprofits get money. And so they, when they signed on, they gave uh us tremendous support to finish

01:06:32.360 - 01:06:52.850

the film. Eli uh Elizabeth Phillips had given us a uh a good uh hunk of change to support the film. Uh We, and as did many, many people, we uh we started out fundraising uh right here at Rice, at the Media Center. We played a little

01:06:52.860 - 01:07:19.399

portion of the uh teaser trailer and uh people started donating some small, some uh large and uh we're forever thankful that we were able to, you have to finish the film, Don Sanders in the film sings um uh the southern coast of France, which is a

01:07:19.409 - 01:07:44.429

wonderful one of my very favorite songs and, and that was written to uh Elizabeth Phillips who uh he was dating back in the day. It touched her greatly, didn't know that he had, you know, sang that in, in the, in the program in the movie. So

01:07:44.439 - 01:08:01.379

it's surprising that you, I kind of, I had the assumption that you had a lot of footage from the interviews to work with, but some of them were much smaller was that hard to during the editing process. Um You know, it, it depended on the amount

01:08:01.389 - 01:08:23.259

of time we had, we uh were able to some days we could get do longer interviews. We, the, the reason Lucinda's interview was so short is that she, uh she didn't have much time and she was tired after doing, you know, a show. So she, I

01:08:23.270 - 01:08:41.140

mean, she stepped up and, and gave us a, you know, a great interview and she's, she was herself, I am, I wish we had used more, a little bit more of her. She said some funny things and, and I didn't use them all. I wish I

01:08:41.149 - 01:08:59.850

had, I hate to leave a joke on the floor after it came out. What did you think about the reception that you got? Well, we were, we were just flabbergasted that people liked it as much and that we were accepted into, you know, South by and,

01:08:59.859 - 01:09:32.060

and Nashville and got quite a few, you know, film festivals had some uh offers to, you know, do something with the film. The problem was the musicians supported us 100% and, but the, but the record companies are pretty tough and so we had broadcast rights for

01:09:32.069 - 01:09:51.609

uh PBS but nothing else. So, uh we've done a couple of, we've played about a couple of played the film at a couple of fundraisers and things like that. But, you know, we didn't do the film to make money. You don't do a film about folk

01:09:51.620 - 01:10:18.370

music to make money. You might do one about rap or hip hop but not about folk music and you don't do it. If you're smart, you don't do a film that has a musicians and a, uh, uh publishing companies and record labels that you have to,

01:10:18.379 - 01:10:46.799

uh, you have to appease Jim to this day. Takes all of the contracts and makes all of the payments to everyone every, you know, every quarter or whatever is required. I know if he had known the amount of detail that's required to, to take care of

01:10:46.810 - 01:11:08.430

all of this, he might have had second thoughts about doing the film. And the reason, uh I can't step in to do that is I'm just not capable. I mean, I couldn't imagine that. That's, I know, it's interesting that it just becomes, yeah, that the, the

01:11:08.439 - 01:11:25.549

musician, it's, it's the kind of the bureaucracy that makes the, makes it a lot harder. It's, you know, well, love, it says he, you know, he's never made a penny off of any of his recordings in any of his albums he puts out or anything, you

01:11:25.560 - 01:11:46.720

know, I, I haven't talked to him about it but he told somebody that I thought, hm, that's then why, why you do it because then they'll come to your conor, I guess. Um, anyway, I don't know. I do know that, um, that Margaret Brown, she was

01:11:46.729 - 01:12:06.680

smart. She did a film on Talents and just one musician, you know, one family, although it got a little bit complicated getting her rights because the family was kind of, I think, fighting about who owns what. But I think that's, it would be a, the way

01:12:06.689 - 01:12:25.430

to go to one musician when, when record company, of course, they might have had three or four by the time you did the show, if you could make another documentary, um, on a musician who would you like to do it on? Well, that's a, that's a

01:12:25.439 - 01:12:50.350

really sad thing. Uh, if I could do another one from scratch, I would start with Vince Bell and we had intended to do one with Vince and even told him. So, in the middle of shooting the, uh, the, um, Anderson Fair film, but I'm 75 now,

01:12:50.609 - 01:13:11.430

as, uh, as time went by, I realized that I was not gonna be able to raise the money. Uh We, we did shoot, we did shoot uh, one set of interviews and I, I truly, the mind and the heart are willing, but I just haven't been

01:13:11.439 - 01:13:32.390

able to get the energy to, uh, to do it, Jim is, is off on other projects and I thought I could maybe do it without him. But it turned out I couldn't, I do have some, some, uh, shows in the Can that have already been shot.

01:13:32.990 - 01:13:56.350

Um, one is a, uh film that Dee Brown and I did on Ramblin Jack Elio in Texas. That's, um, that was, we shot it almost 40 years ago and never did anything with it. And so right now I'm starting to, uh, uh, reedit it along with

01:13:56.359 - 01:14:17.359

D Brown who, uh, he and I made the, the first one and then we hope to do something with it. At least we want to have it. So it'll be a, um, a record of, of Jack in Texas. And I have, um, enough footage, uh, to

01:14:17.370 - 01:14:38.680

do a concert type film on, um, Eric Taylor. We have lots of, uh, his interviews and stuff and it would require no sheeting. So those, those are a couple of things that we have in the, in the, uh, you know, back. Uh Also we have enough

01:14:38.689 - 01:15:00.529

footage of Nancy Griffiths to do a, uh, just a straight concert. Yeah. Um, none of these are, are, you know, have a green light yet, but those are three things if I can get to them, you know, you were here in Houston during a pivotal time

01:15:00.540 - 01:15:17.479

with kind of the Houston folk scene. Um, you know, you didn't, it kind of kind of began around 1960 the like very early bits of it, but coming in at 65 and then kind of seeing it all the way through. Um Why do you think that

01:15:18.500 - 01:15:36.729

the scene might have happened here? Do you think it was just a, um, a lot of people coming together, maybe something with, um, you know, people, maybe not as enthused with Austin that came down into Houston. It just kind of luck of the draw I, I

01:15:36.740 - 01:16:12.419

think all of those things, the, um, I would say that, um, Guy Clark and Towns and people like, uh Frank Davis were here and they were just beginning to try their hand at this and other people began to notice what they were doing and I think

01:16:12.430 - 01:16:36.390

they, that's what drew people to Houston to get to and that got the ball rolling. I'm trying to remember a couple of other singers. Austin, you know, had some. When I left Austin in 65 there was no folk music scene at all. There was Ernie May

01:16:36.399 - 01:16:57.810

Miller was playing blues at the, at the New Orleans Club and there was the, the, uh broken spoke and that was about it. You know, now after I left it went crazy. There's even though there's a, um, some people say, well, it was a Austin was

01:16:57.819 - 01:17:13.810

the music capital and other people say, well, Houston started the folk music scene. II, I don't care, you know, to me it was just a blend and people who lived in Austin came to Houston to play and, and people in Houston went to Austin to play

01:17:14.379 - 01:17:41.979

the same thing with the fair. We Jim and I tried to figure out why, why this little bitty place would foster so many great musicians, you know, guy, so well, it was just another joint for me to play. But still he, you know, he there and

01:17:41.990 - 01:18:05.220

the, you know, these other clubs and towns and, and all of them based, brought in a lot of people and, and a great many of them came out of the fair, you know, full blown talent. They were, they were AAA voice and a force to be

01:18:05.229 - 01:18:25.490

recorded with. And we couldn't figure out why it happened at the fair for what particular reason other than it was so nurturing the sound was so good, the lights were gentle and people loved them. And so we just gave up on trying to figure it out.

01:18:25.500 - 01:18:41.549

We just said, you know, just be thankful that it happened and we gave up on trying to analyze it. I don't think you can analyze that kind of stuff. I mean, obviously the the scene hit a peak and then it kind of started to wane what

01:18:41.560 - 01:19:03.609

do you think has changed that maybe we don't have a scene like that anymore, call it the folk music scare. You know, I just think maybe we, we all of us who embraced it, most of us who embraced it um are older and there's not a

01:19:03.620 - 01:19:28.439

huge amount of, of use to provide that energy and that, that whatever is required to, to keep that going. Although there will be times when a a younger performer will come and bring a young audience with them. But I still think that the taste change the

01:19:28.450 - 01:19:47.910

music, you know, changes. Um Some of it I don't particularly care for, but some is pretty good, you know, it, it, it's, it'll probably come back around again at some point. Somebody will say, you know what I kind of like the idea of a, of a

01:19:47.919 - 01:20:10.709

story and, uh, played simply, you know, with, with a straight performance, maybe, maybe I'll listen to some more of this, you know, that might, that might happen. I've got a story for you, uh, that I heard from Eric Taylor from, had a song called Rest Area

01:20:10.720 - 01:20:34.959

Waltz one time. He was actually at a rest area and a state trooper highway patrol stopped him for whatever reason. And Eric says, uh trooper said, is that a earring you're wearing there and said, no, sir. No, sir. That's AC B radio. I'm a volunteer fireman.

01:20:41.750 - 01:21:04.680

Uh, um, do you want to take a moment and talk about some of the, like the recent work that you do with the opera? Simulcast? Well, since, uh 2000 or 2001, I have been, uh, who would have sunk it. I've been uh directing opera, uh, for

01:21:04.689 - 01:21:24.319

Simo casts or for archival recordings or for DVD S at, uh, I worked for five years for Houston Grand Opera. And then, um, I work around the country at other places. I got to, let's see, the, I believe the next place I worked was, uh, for

01:21:24.330 - 01:21:49.060

the Washington National Opera at the Kennedy Center and I got to work with Domingo Bob Dylan told me, don't be a name dropper. I'm kidding. Uh I've, I've worked there, I guess I've done about 12 or 13 shows there. I get to work in Philadelphia, uh

01:21:49.069 - 01:22:12.560

Chicago, Santa Fe. I did one show in San Francisco and that was a great, great fun. I also have worked with uh the Philadelphia orchestra and a long time ago I did some uh shows with uh the uh Houston Symphony and I've started doing ballet and

01:22:12.569 - 01:22:36.970

modern dance in Chicago. And the, the most fun and the biggest scare was doing uh a Zelle uh for the uh Paris opera ballet. And what's so scary about it is they're the folks who started ballet. I mean, that company, I had to go to New

01:22:36.979 - 01:22:57.299

York along with Andy Gerardo to meet the creative director of the Paris Opera ballet and the, and the uh general director and we could, so we could convince them that we could handle that, that job. Um They, we did a three city tour and it was

01:22:57.310 - 01:23:23.589

live simulcast the Bridge, the creative director uh didn't speak French and I speak very little French. So they had an interpreter and I tried a few jokes to lighten the mood and she didn't smile. But we played uh uh uh Jim Berman put together uh a

01:23:23.600 - 01:23:46.649

little edit for me that had a lot of dance in it. Dance from opera. You know, opera has, is the only, only form that has everything in it. It has orchestra, symphony it has, uh, dance, it has theater and song. No, no other, no other big

01:23:46.660 - 01:24:07.569

or thing has that. Anyway, uh, we eventually got to do that. So it was, uh, and they were happy and, uh, uh, they came in and said some complimentary things and that was, that was fun. But, um, that's, uh, I'm still doing that. I'm 75. I

01:24:07.580 - 01:24:30.000

don't know how many more years I'll do that before they put me out to pasture. But I'm, I'm enjoying it. I, I, I only do that so I can get stuff, you know, like food. I stole that from Jack. Well, do you have any other stories

01:24:30.009 - 01:24:48.430

or anything that you would like to tell? Well, I just thought, I maybe you could talk about some of the uh musicians and that might tell some stories. Um I think about guy Clark who I always felt was, was just the most handsome man I had

01:24:48.439 - 01:25:13.970

ever met. And, and so that every woman in, in uh Houston and maybe anywhere else. But I know that he intimidated people just by his, his presence. He, I felt like he was my personal songwriter because he would write songs that just were so Texas. And

01:25:13.979 - 01:25:33.939

so, yeah, my father was um a pilot but he was also an oil man. So Desperado was waiting for a tray just I thought, oh my gosh, that was my dad. One day he came over to my house and played washers. We drank some beer and

01:25:33.950 - 01:25:52.509

ate some chili. I thought that was, you know, wow. Guy Clark came to my house. It was pretty neat. Town. I was, I was, you know, one thing I would not dear friends with any of these people, but I did know them and they didn't know

01:25:52.520 - 01:26:20.899

me. Towns was, um, scary. He had a wonderful talent and other people can tell his story much better than I, but I do remember when one night he wanted to go eat some, I had never heard of or if I did, I'd forgotten. And, uh, I

01:26:20.959 - 01:26:39.520

remember going with about three or four of us. I think Eric Taylor might have been one of them and, uh, maybe Rex and, and Mickey, that was the first and last time I'd ever had there was a little Mexican restaurant right off of Westheimer, you know,

01:26:39.529 - 01:26:53.979

Lower Westheimer. And I don't, I don't know the name of it. It was just a little sad place with a few booths and I don't know, I wish I could remember the name of that place I talked to, you know, Mickey didn't even remember that, but

01:26:53.990 - 01:27:13.040

I, maybe he wasn't there. But anyway, that was, that was a fun, uh, night and something that I, you know, ok, I hadn't been to town and that was pretty cool. I can remember working with, uh, Lyle Lovett was volunteering and at the, uh, at the

01:27:13.049 - 01:27:31.790

fair and I was there that night too. Uh, there was a car wreck or a car had done something and I was standing behind the bar out on Montrose. This car comes flying through the intersection but it's vertical. It's like on the hood, like it hit

01:27:31.799 - 01:27:52.049

something and then scooted and, and I just looked at that and then that just stands out in my mind. And that night I went out to my, uh, car to leave and I, I didn't really know. Well, I just said hello to him, you know, and,

01:27:52.060 - 01:28:12.129

and, but he came out and uh handed me a cassette and he said, would you take a listen? And on one side it said, I think it said blues and on the other side, it said country and I still had a cassette. It was, and it

01:28:12.140 - 01:28:29.779

was great. He had some songs that you don't hear, you know, like skinny legs was one of them. So those are, those are three memories I have. I remember Frank Davis had his big daddy banjo and he, he came to the TV station and sang a

01:28:29.790 - 01:28:54.399

song called Green Corn, which is basically just repeating the words, green corn, green corn and playing his daddy banjo, which is, you know, made from a drum. It's a big, beautiful instrument. And um I would see him, you know, he, one time he, he would do

01:28:54.410 - 01:29:18.169

these fantastic designs. One of them was he created a dirigible and he, where the motor was inside, not outside of the envelope, which makes no sense at all. But the way he designed it was to me it was just high art whether it worked or not,

01:29:18.180 - 01:29:39.990

you know, uh he insisted that it would work but uh nobody ever, you know, built one like that. I also remember he had AAA goat, a Billy goat and um I'm, I'm told that towns would shoot it with a BB gun. Really make it mean Frank

01:29:40.000 - 01:29:59.259

had a, uh, a bicycle with a two horsepower motor on it, which I thought was pretty cool. He just go, put, put, put around the man on that thing. His dad had a museum in there in a house that he Frank kept. I don't know what

01:29:59.270 - 01:30:19.950

happened to that museum. But, um, I think that one of his family members might have some of the items that were kept in it still. I hope so. I hope so. Uh He was, he was a character one night quite a played uh Liberty Hall. And

01:30:19.959 - 01:30:44.330

I remember he had some backup singers and one of them was Emmy Lou Harris. And I thought she was pretty cute too. And, uh, after, after the show at Liberty Hall, uh we all went over to, to uh the old quarter sang a few songs, the

01:30:44.339 - 01:31:09.890

doors were locked and Frank came in and grumbled something because apparently he and, and accident had had some bad blood between them and anyway, that, that's down set out in my memory. I remember, uh, Guy Clark after playing places like the old quarter and the fair

01:31:10.370 - 01:31:37.459

coming, uh, back to Houston to play the Texas Opry House on Richmond. And, uh, it being jammed packed and that was the first time I realized, 00, this is, it's not just guy anymore. It's, it's a force. God's gonna do. Ok. I lived behind for a

01:31:37.470 - 01:31:52.390

while. I live right behind the Texas Opry House just across the street in the back. And I, I could, I could leave by the back door and step across to my house and go upstairs uh where my apartment was. I had to walk around to the

01:31:52.399 - 01:32:11.759

front to get in. And uh Melissa Noble who uh works uh in our industry. She's a makeup artist. She's also a big volunteer at, at uh KPFT. She thought I was a musician and so she would let me in free back in the days when I

01:32:11.770 - 01:32:40.109

needed to be let in free. I had a, a garage apartment in uh the Montrose. I was moving and there was a, a duo. It was uh Steven Gerrard and Bill Cade and they were without a place to live. So I just let them have my

01:32:40.120 - 01:33:02.439

place. I left everything including a rubber duck in the bathroom and a book of Bob Dylan's songs that uh Steve Steven learned some songs from, but I neglected to tell my land lady that I was doing that and she became upset because, uh, she liked to

01:33:02.450 - 01:33:26.810

control who lived there. But, but she went along with it after a while, you know, speaking of places to live, um, Bell at one time had, uh, you know, most starving folk singers didn't have a lot of money for, for apartments and things. And for a

01:33:26.990 - 01:33:50.879

spell. Vince lived in a tent outside of, um, uh, Dan Earhart's house, Captain Macho here on Klol. And he just had some bug spray and a typewriter in this tent. When I heard that I thought, you know, that's devotion. That's somebody that, you know, is dedicated

01:33:50.910 - 01:34:20.939

to their art. And he did every kind of job he could possibly have to, uh, keep doing his, his music. He'd be an attendant in a parking lot. He sold fireworks. He did it all. Name somebody. Um, well, uh, let's see, Nancy Griffith. You haven't said

01:34:20.950 - 01:34:50.540

much? Yeah. Yeah, I remember hearing her speak before. I heard her sing and she has this very soft, almost, you know, young girl like voice. It's very, it's not a powerful voice at all. And then I thought, oh, my gosh. You know, but then she, I

01:34:50.549 - 01:35:09.439

heard her sing and it's a different world. She has this wonderful voice and this strong, you know, she's still got her Austin. She's from Austin. She still has that, that Austin accent. I thought, ok, this, yeah, this works, this works. But still to this day it's

01:35:09.450 - 01:35:31.729

still a shock when she talks between songs, you know, I, I just think, oh, yeah. Ok. Anyway, she and she's a great writer as well. I thought, I think she can put the words together nicely. Yeah. Light behind these woods is really haunting. Yeah. Yeah. Mary

01:35:31.740 - 01:35:52.129

Margaret want me to talk about Liberty Hall. You can talk about Liberty Hall. I got a call from Mike and he, they closed down the Texas Rose Cafe. It, same as, you know, family hand. It was just different names and that was on. And, uh, he

01:35:52.140 - 01:36:13.520

was opening up this place along with Ryan Trimble on, uh, uh, street and, uh, Linda Herrera was in on this deal. And so I went down there and, um, took a look at the building and there was big murals. It was a for, I think, a

01:36:13.529 - 01:36:34.529

VFW hall and it had an airplane on one wall and a balcony. There was a, uh, backstage area upstairs and, uh, bar was, uh, over on the left of the stage. If you're in the audience, it was over on the left. You go over there to

01:36:34.540 - 01:36:58.810

get, buy your, buy your beer. And they opened with, uh, with a show called The Earl of Ruston and I went to see it and I was just blown away by it, you know, they sing this song. Earl Earl was ahead. Earl was ahead or was

01:36:58.819 - 01:37:19.919

ahead of his time. And uh, some other fun things and then, um, I, I went and asked some friends to come back with me to, to, uh, see it and I don't know how long it ran there, but it also, I think they took that to

01:37:19.930 - 01:37:43.470

off Broadway and it did fairly well, I think. Um, but they brought in some wonderful music and, and I'm sure Lindon probably told all these stories. But for me as a, just as a, a fan to go there, that, that was our country club every, you

01:37:43.479 - 01:38:04.890

know, you knew on Saturday night or Friday night, you knew where you were going. And, um, some, you know, I saw Mose Allison there, great performers. My, my wife, now before she was, my wife invited me to come see this guy that I never heard of.

01:38:04.899 - 01:38:22.470

His name is Bruce Springsteen. And I was sitting up in the, in the uh balcony with her in the cheap seats. And, uh I kept thinking is that him, people would come out and play and no, that's not him. That's not, you'll know. And then he

01:38:22.479 - 01:38:46.759

came out and just did an incredible performance and blew everybody away. And I was, you know, really excited. And after the show, uh Roberto Gonzalez took us, uh, up on stage to meet, uh Bruce and he was just a gentle, nice fellow. I think he was

01:38:46.770 - 01:39:06.339

helping with the load out. He took a moment to, you know, shake hands and say hi. And I didn't know what that would mean to me until later, but it was a, you know, that was, that was pretty cool deal. We have a, we would have,

01:39:06.350 - 01:39:29.620

uh, poker games every Tuesday night for a while and a lot of different people would come through and play poker. Uh, these are not high stakes games and, and, uh, there was a lot of, you know, just talking and, and drinking beer and enjoying it, but

01:39:29.629 - 01:39:49.729

that, I thought that was neat to be included in that part of it. Roberto or, or Mike would come by the TV station every so often and they would usually would give me a, uh, a heads up that they had somebody that could be, uh, you

01:39:49.740 - 01:40:12.200

know, maybe we would want to have on the show like Ron Stone's five o'clock show. And, um, and so we would do a, say it was a Friday night at five and then we'd have that person perform or be interviewed by Ron. And then that night,

01:40:12.649 - 01:40:28.370

uh, they would open it at Liberty Hall. So it was a, a good deal for, for the hall and it was great for the station as well. I remember one of the people that came by, but I actually did a new show was, uh, John Hammond.

01:40:28.629 - 01:40:52.359

He, he played Big Mama Thornton was at the TV station, Jimmy Reed. Um, and that was not too, too much before he passed away. Just not too long after that, but we got to interview him and record a couple of songs, uh Bright Lights, Big City

01:40:52.370 - 01:41:10.709

and Big Boss Man. But there were some, I hate to use the word synergy but you know, the, the fact that they could come to the TV station and get a little bit of uh for the, for the hall. And uh and we tried to do

01:41:10.720 - 01:41:31.689

that the same thing with the little show with, with the fair. We would have the Anderson Fair Mobile audience come when, uh, we did some shows on a little show that were, um, without an audience. And we found that the musicians did so much better and

01:41:31.700 - 01:41:51.020

felt so more, much more comfortable, even if we only had five people out there, you know, less or 10, you know, it still gave them somebody to sing to. We didn't even have to show them, you know. But, um, but there just was that human element

01:41:51.029 - 01:42:08.810

and not singing into a red light. The hall was a lot of fun and it was, it was, uh, it had a good run. Maybe if you want to take a moment, you've talked a little bit about Don Sanders. But if you want to talk a

01:42:08.819 - 01:42:35.720

little bit more about him, I first saw Don Sanders at, uh Herman Park and he was out in the middle of a, a ring of people who were sitting around him as he was telling stories and playing music. This is it, you know, unofficial deal. He

01:42:35.729 - 01:42:57.089

was just out there entertaining. He probably had some friends there too. But I, I thought, oh, this guy's got something, he's, you know, I enjoyed that. They had, you know, they had the, the folk folk music society, I think, uh, one of the Lomax folks started

01:42:57.100 - 01:43:28.470

that and Guy Clark was a member of that and then I saw Don come to entertain at lunches at the fair, which in those days they had the windows were, were not covered, they were open so lunches were bright and it was cheery inside. Not, you

01:43:28.479 - 01:43:56.160

know, because it was mainly a daytime place. And over time I, I realized what a talent he had and how he crafted, you know, his music he shared with me some of his poetry which can be tortured, you know, he's hard on himself, he can be

01:43:56.169 - 01:44:18.200

really hard on himself. Um But it's, it's hi art, you know, he also plays a mean, do, bro, have you ever heard him play that with his pocket knife, big shiny steel? Do, bro? I, I remember Don for his music and for that big smile, that

01:44:18.209 - 01:44:41.240

big smile and, and the fact that he was so humble, which is not a, you know, a common thing with music, with performers. I'm trying to think of some other, other people Lynn Langham would play and she was on, she played at the at the sweetheart

01:44:41.250 - 01:45:02.669

and she was on the show and she played the fair and other venues. She uh was essential of performing her, her voice and, and, you know, I, I, I was always worried that she might start crying because she felt the song so deeply and, and the

01:45:02.680 - 01:45:32.450

words were so personal. She's still performing and doing a great job trying to remember. Catfishes. Catfish is uh real name guy could play guitar like crazy. John John Gramado. He, he was a guy incredibly shy but what a talent and what a pure, pure voice and,

01:45:32.459 - 01:45:48.939

and his playing and Bill Steve was, you know, next to none. I think Lyle really enjoyed his music as well and I wish I wish he would come around more often. I, he just just disappeared from the scene. You know what that we didn't put in

01:45:48.950 - 01:46:15.370

our film about Anderson Fair was uh some of the sad things the, the people taking their own lives. Uh Pat Pritchett who named Anderson Fair. And by the way, I guess I'm the slowest guy in the world because I remember seeing that thinking Anderson Fair retail

01:46:15.600 - 01:46:47.149

restaurant. What the hell kind of name is that? You know, Anderson Fair retail restaurant? Well, but if you say it, you know enough Anderson Fairy Tail Anderson Fairy Tale restaurant, what a what a great uh clever name. And she also designed the sign which is like

01:46:47.160 - 01:47:07.600

meant to be a hat on top you know, of the building, you know, it's got that round hat part of it. She, um, had, she was in a way, a little bit of the soul of the place for when they got started at some point, uh,

01:47:07.609 - 01:47:33.850

several years ago, she, she just, she took her life and the first person that I from the fair was Re Smith and I just loved, he, he played guitar and violin and was a sweet, sweet man. He, he actually lived at the fair and would sleep

01:47:33.859 - 01:47:59.339

in the music room. Not everyone of the family loved rev because apparently they but heads occasionally. But, uh, you know, it was sad that when he went and another fellow, I believe his name was Bruce mcelhaney. And he played 12 string guitar and, you know, all

01:47:59.350 - 01:48:21.029

of them had something that deeply sad for him. And, uh, but I don't know that three people out of all the hundreds of hundreds of people is a large portion of our segment. But those are three sad stories. We chose not to put them in the

01:48:21.040 - 01:48:40.930

film Lucinda. She didn't use this, these words, but she saw a little clip from it and she said something like, you know, there's just too much sugar, that's just too, you know, you know, it's too sweet. And if I had to do it over again, I

01:48:40.939 - 01:49:02.080

would fight to have some more, some more sour and make it a little, a little more you know, of what it was truly like. I think we showed what it's truly like, but it's not an expose, it's more of a love letter. And I said that

01:49:02.089 - 01:49:22.959

in my director's statement and I Lucinda was right. But so what I think it would be hard to when you have such an attachment to something. I think it, I think it's gonna be hard to come out at it completely objective view, you know. You know,

01:49:22.970 - 01:49:36.819

but there's one thing I, it would have been really, really funny. Lucinda said, and we use this part in the film, she'd say, well, you get up in the morning and you just, you know, it was like a community center. You go over to the fair

01:49:37.089 - 01:49:57.600

and you'd have some coffee and get something to eat and then maybe later you drink a beer and, and we faded it out. But what she, what she said in the interview was, you know, uh then later we get something to eat and drink a beer,

01:49:57.609 - 01:50:11.709

maybe smoke a joint. And I think I should have just had that under just as we were fading out. And I think it would have been, people would have, it would have been a big laugh and I left it on the floor. I was really disappointed

01:50:11.720 - 01:50:35.220

in myself for that. Maybe, maybe in the reedit when I'm 80. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming and um giving this interview. Um you've been able to provide a lot of um background on information that we didn't really have before. Thank you.