00:00:01.100 - 00:00:27.090

Today is July 13th, 1969. This is uh 44 Mr Mary K, either side, we're on life. I was hi. So uh what happened? Could you just give me your address and let me check this and see what kind of the air conditioning? Ok. Address is 57

00:00:27.100 - 00:01:04.599

01, Jackson number 1208. All right. Now, just to test this particular setting. Uh How about uh maybe you give me one through 10 rather 123456789 10. Well, now that we have that problem solved, we can get back to the in our interview, what I'd be interested

00:01:04.610 - 00:01:27.019

in hearing from you, Barry. Uh I no, your outstanding recollections of the event and your interpretations of those events and the prelude. Uh How about uh giving me an idea of how you looked at the office of the president of Rye? What you expected a man

00:01:27.029 - 00:01:48.669

should have in order to be a successful and effective pregnant. Well, I felt that uh the office of the presidency here was one required that the man be able to work, but from a central position between the administration and the rest of the, the administration, meaning

00:01:48.680 - 00:02:05.260

the Board of Governors and Trustees and the rest of the university and incidentally have some kind of charm or, or at least some lack of negative qualities so that the the public outside would not be too distressed by the man's presence on campus and and that

00:02:05.269 - 00:02:27.740

the business of the campus in each of the directions from the office of the presidency could continue. And um it seemed the the fellow should, would necessarily have to be a scholar, not necessarily of a first rank. I mean, such that if you said his name,

00:02:28.470 - 00:02:44.940

people might recognize it, but at least a scholar, someone who was an academic and who was an active academic at the time of his appointment, so that he was on the somebody's campus recently and knows what generally is happening in school. And then a man also

00:02:44.949 - 00:03:08.149

flexible enough to adapt to Rice itself, which has had a tradition of close cooperations among students, faculty and lower administration. And the office of the presidency under Pitzer was essentially a clearing house for new ideas and sometimes even the stimulus to new ideas. And so we

00:03:08.160 - 00:03:32.339

in a way, I think a lot of us were looking for someone to carry on the tradition for of innovation that Pitzer started it. Um Did you hear anyone suggest at this time uh that fundraising might be an important element or was that ever part of

00:03:32.350 - 00:03:53.080

the discussion? Well, that that did enter into the discussions did, would probably be nice if a fellow were a good fundraiser as well. But I didn't think that that was of primary importance. The administration is a school in its daily affairs. To me was a lot

00:03:53.089 - 00:04:12.270

more important than, than public public relations. It seemed, you know, that we had an alumni association and a development office to handle those functions and, and a president would naturally have to co-operate and to make fundraising appearances, but it probably shouldn't have been horribly important that

00:04:12.279 - 00:04:28.369

he'd be well enough connected to, to be able to call in a million dollars and he felt a million dollars is needed. So that, that in itself was not a primary importance that would of course be one of the trustees considerations. But it seemed to me

00:04:28.380 - 00:04:49.730

that it compromised of, of the different viewpoints of of the primary importance of the president would produce the, the kind of man we were looking for. Did uh did you yourself have anyone in mind that uh you thought would make special good president? Well, the only

00:04:49.739 - 00:05:13.299

person I actually recommended to the Broad in committee was William Arrowsmith of the University of Texas Classics Department, who is a well known crusader for academic reform, who advocates university professorships and and improve teaching quality and uh humanism in in the humanistic studies as opposed to

00:05:13.309 - 00:05:35.459

pure research. And uh I I mentioned his name not really knowing his administrative qualifications. But that was the sort of approach that I had in mind to the problems of, of the, the students and at least the academic part of the office of the president. Do

00:05:35.470 - 00:05:52.760

you have any reason to believe that uh that uh thank you. Oh, no, no, I merely submitted, I, I knew that the committee would have its own research staff and would look at the people up. So I think it dropped the name into the, I looked

00:05:52.769 - 00:06:10.010

him up in the boo of American somebody scholars or something like that and, and just got his degrees down and then drop to in a note to Doctor Brotton. Did you hear any other names in the rumor mail? Uh who attracted your interest? Not really there?

00:06:10.019 - 00:06:26.970

Then I got a lot of good gossip from the committee since Barry was would, would bring back the names and of the people under serious consideration. They were the kind of people who, who were not so well known that I had heard of them. But there

00:06:26.980 - 00:06:46.670

seemed to, to be some enthusiasm. A lot of the names apparently that were mentioned were, were people from the, the search which had had brought Pitzer to r in, in 61. And people seem still to think favorably of, of those names. And I went along having

00:06:46.679 - 00:07:06.100

confidence in the committee and not really following too closely what they were doing. Did you sense that there was uh a very high level of interest among the students or faculty, um say prior to Christmas and during January or uh was the committee just mostly just

00:07:06.109 - 00:07:23.500

carrying on, people were just leaving it to them. Well, there, there had been a, a lot of discussion, people would come up and, and ask me what Barry had been doing. As a committee, people would want to ask how to submit names. Apparently, names were submitted

00:07:24.170 - 00:07:40.359

in fairly large numbers during the early months of the search. And it seemed that, you know, at that time, the level of enthusiasm for the thing was probably no greater than it should have been and indeed, it wasn't low at all. So I think that, you

00:07:40.369 - 00:08:02.839

know, the thing, if all things had functioned normally, probably would have taken it whatever the A ce says, three point something years and come up with a name American Council on Education, which is kind of the, oh, it's the nim of university administration since the, they,

00:08:02.850 - 00:08:27.769

they had a, a little guidebook on choosing president. And uh they, they just sort of deliberate very broadly issues of, of education and have search groups and committees to, to tackle widespread particular problems of, of colleges and universities. I'm sort of a lobby and a pressure

00:08:27.779 - 00:08:55.000

group for, for higher education in the US, sometimes called the Presidents Club. The university president presidents are automatically delegates to the A CE do you recall how you first uh you and me first got used that position had more. Um, well, I guess it was on

00:08:55.010 - 00:09:17.140

the Wednesday of the week, um, that when, when Bratton said that the committee was going to meet the following afternoon and, and he thought it was bad news. And so that was the first animation there was, if there was any action, how many I would like

00:09:17.190 - 00:09:42.909

for you at that time? Well, it seemed that if the board were left to its own devices, it would have chosen Masterson or someone of a, a small group of people who had been prominent at. Right. And who were their friends in the past. And so

00:09:42.919 - 00:10:00.469

it, the name in itself was not a horrible surprise. It was horrible but not a surprise that if the board acted unilaterally, they, they probably would have come up with ma pretty close to the top of their own list. And so that in itself, but that

00:10:00.479 - 00:10:20.679

they had done it and that the report I got on Thursday afternoon of, of the presentation of the news by Alan and Teague to the, brought in committee and in this handing a, a finished package and saying, well, you're gonna like it. This is what we've

00:10:20.690 - 00:10:47.429

done. Uh, that was, that was an absolute shock and, and it was pretty bad. We, uh, and we, we promised not to tell or she had promised not to tell and then she, she, it was, had already been agreed apparently. By the committee that it was

00:10:47.440 - 00:11:06.539

all right to tell Felton if the South has been made of the same provinces. So no one told there was a a thugs concert Thursday night and from the atmosphere of the concert, it was fairly evident that the student body didn't know yet. And that part

00:11:06.549 - 00:11:29.710

of the student body, a large part of the student body turned out there was no talk of anything. There was no, not even a tense atmosphere. And then by Friday morning there were rumors all over the campus. It seems that the chronicle had picked up the

00:11:29.719 - 00:11:48.669

story and were irrevocably going to print it in their moon edition. And there was a great deal of scurrying about on the part of, of the departmental secretaries to get all their faculty members together for the meeting, which had been moved up from Saturday to Friday

00:11:48.679 - 00:12:16.539

afternoon before we leave Wednesday. Uh Do you recall various reactions to that? Have some breath? No, I don't. No. Would I be correct in saying if he uh transmitted his alive? Yes, he, yes, yes. He, he did say something to be effective. I'm afraid it's bad

00:12:16.549 - 00:12:37.989

news. And so there was some kind i of a, a sort of a thrill of expectation but not any real move. Did uh do you recall it? Uh If you and Mary had the impression that bro knew who it was, who couldn't speak. I, I certainly,

00:12:38.000 - 00:12:53.950

I certainly didn't have any impression one way or the other on the med. Right. I simply, it seemed to me that he was well enough versed in the ways of, of getting at the, the more secret parts of the rice grape fund that if it was

00:12:53.960 - 00:13:15.609

something to know, he already knew what it was both in, in form and sub. So it occurred to me that he probably knew what it was going to be about and exactly what it was going to be about. And I, I later found out that it

00:13:15.619 - 00:13:36.340

had been known to Houston, some members of Houston Society as early as Tuesday night. Oh, wow. From what source did you get that impression do you recall? Yeah, Ferd Levy of the economics department was saying that he had been at the symphony that Tuesday night and

00:13:36.349 - 00:13:52.979

a young society Matron had come up to him and said something like, well, you've got a new president and he looked rather startled and, and baffled and she said, oh, you don't know yet, I guess it was a surprise. And then she said something like you're

00:13:52.989 - 00:14:13.849

not gonna, like it said Tra la la and skipped off. And, uh, I found later from Levy and from Bratton and from Garside, uh from various sources that it was fairly common knowledge among the clubs that in which some of the trustees travel. It also got

00:14:13.859 - 00:14:37.919

back to Houston in the way the chronicle got it as it turns out via, uh, release in, in the Knoxville newspaper or radio station or something. And the student at Vanderbilt or whatever school going back to Houston. So, apparently it was, it was known in Chattanooga

00:14:38.640 - 00:15:00.179

in the week too as they got to the, uh, Tennessee State University for school. So I guess the campus was really among the last to know. But anyway, by Friday morning here, the rumors were, were practically impossible to keep down and people would come up to

00:15:00.190 - 00:15:21.530

me and I was still on like my pledge of secrecy and I, I simply, you know, couldn't say and wouldn't sing and, and just, you know, kind of scales and the things that even, even at the time it seemed that the conclusion people would draw from,

00:15:22.200 - 00:15:41.520

from the, the look of bad news with Masterson security. What the mission? Thank you. I heard a lot of people because as I said, it was again, fairly common knowledge that the board had, had their eye on and then there was some talk even that he

00:15:41.530 - 00:16:01.320

had gone off to Chattanooga as, as grooming for the vice presidency. Do you think that's, uh, do you think that should be considered that? Well, it may not be that he actually signed a contract at Chattanooga with it firmly fixed in his mind that he would

00:16:01.330 - 00:16:16.369

be president of R he couldn't possibly have known at the time, for instance, that Stanford was going to get pits the next year. And he couldn't have, he couldn't have known all the events that would fall out. But I'm sure he felt that eventually when rice

00:16:16.380 - 00:16:41.750

needed a president, he felt he had a pretty good chance of being called on by the board and he was under a lot of pressure from kids in anyway. He was not a very good administrator, apparently, certainly a very unpopular view of humanity. And uh a

00:16:41.770 - 00:17:01.260

lot of the old rice people kind of felt that Pitzer was, was squeezing them out that he was in his modernizing of the campus. He he was stepping on a lot of toes in this, this little enclave private club that life did. And it's my understanding

00:17:01.270 - 00:17:22.300

that Pitzer was getting more and more unpopular with members of the board, especially after George Brown and Newton Razer retired. It turned out to have been the last two progressive. There been any power on the board of trustees so apparently unhappy with, with what was going

00:17:22.310 - 00:17:42.540

on on on the campus was in, in the trustee's mind and they knew Masterson could be a firm disciplinarian of the old school. He had been his master of Hampton College and it, from what Teague, I believe it was the teague who was quoted as saying,

00:17:42.550 - 00:18:01.770

we need a firm hand on the tiller. Um It was just kind of of authoritarian figure that the board was looking for in uh in choosing the president. And then of course, Masterson would have been an obvious choice. And I think Masterson showed that by his

00:18:01.780 - 00:18:35.819

behavior outside Lovett Hall on, on, on the day of the, the press conference and the demonstrations. Yeah, if you'd like to describe your impression. Ok. Well, I really didn't trust him when he stood up there and, and, well, on the one hand I think he, he

00:18:35.829 - 00:18:52.900

was not exactly sure what, what was going on. I think that he, well, one of the things that I faulted him for and that apparently a lot of people were faulting him for was that he had been out of touch with the cancer to a very

00:18:52.910 - 00:19:15.040

large extent from the time he was gone. What news he was getting probably came from his friends in the Houston community rather than his friends in the life community because his friends in the life community were not numerous. And, uh, the statements that he made before

00:19:15.050 - 00:19:33.239

the, the shouting began out at the Valley Port were of the tenors that there have been good communications in, in the past at, right, there will be good communications in the future at, right. That we're gonna shut up for a while until I get to be

00:19:33.250 - 00:19:55.729

president. It was that it was that kind of, I'm sure he didn't conceive of it that way, but it certainly read that way to somebody in, in the, in the audience out there. And so his, his opening remarks were really and so he were, we're responding

00:19:55.739 - 00:20:14.920

to a welcome back, Doctor Masterson demonstration and, and he adapted very slowly and very awkwardly and finally, very poorly to the fact that he was being, his presence would be in question and that his, the grounds and disappointment were being called into question. And, and finally,

00:20:15.079 - 00:20:35.300

when he was asked, would he step down for the time? It took the, the consultation between the board and the, and the committee and the search committee to go on? And his response to that being something on the order of, well, no, they've made their choice

00:20:35.310 - 00:20:54.489

and it's final and I've made my choice and it's final. And just the entire, finally, the entire disdain for due process when, when due process gets in one's own way, certainly turned the crowd. And I mean, the crowd, all of it all and then a lot

00:20:54.500 - 00:21:12.829

of shouting happened and, and the thing just kind of disintegrated and he gave up the, the bullhorn and it was shortly after that, that he was, it was announced or, you know, rather passed around to the members of the committee and the student leaders that he

00:21:12.839 - 00:21:32.560

was to meet with them. Where was he uh standing exactly. Uh at le Hall were the students congregated on the other side of the students were congregated. Uh Well, when the march, the march went past colon health and just spread out onto that large lung where

00:21:32.569 - 00:21:58.239

commencement exercise would take place and uh people were standing around in little knots and talking about about the whole thing. And uh then he came over from, from Cohen House, apparently via the the Arcade of Love at Hall and came through the Sally Port and stood

00:21:58.250 - 00:22:20.479

on the, let me get it right thing with the right hand corner on, on the the cornerstone, on the foundation block, right where the, where the arch comes to ground at the, the main street side of the right hand of, of the arch, as you look,

00:22:20.619 - 00:22:37.310

as you look to the, the building from main street, he was on the right hand side of the arch standing on, on the foundation block that came out somewhat as a seat into the. So he was, he was elevated and I guess about 3 ft above

00:22:37.319 - 00:22:57.829

natural standing height and he was quite visible to all and you could see the crown. I'm not close with the crowd to him. Well, it started out, uh but there was no real front edge to the crowd, of course. And when he started speaking and people

00:22:58.099 - 00:23:15.050

had, had been called over to hear it and maybe 30 ft or so from him. And there was a lot of drifting back and forth through the arch and just people coming and going to the front of the crowd never had any cohesion and, and people

00:23:15.060 - 00:23:32.839

stood back on the whole respectfully and, and let him talk and there was no pressing on him or are crowding in and, and when you step down and, and, uh, unfinished, the crowd simply dispersed some of it coming through the arch and a lot of it

00:23:32.849 - 00:23:53.349

just kind of going off to the sides of the building and back around towards the college. And how close were you, uh, standing? I was, I could hear very clearly. Could you see fairly well? I could see his, oh, about the upper third of his body,

00:23:53.359 - 00:24:14.069

I guess. But he cut up on the arm and down. Did he impress you as a surprise man? No, it was not a tremendous speed of agility and that they were really in for him and, and had showed signs of that, but, but just a, a

00:24:14.079 - 00:24:32.859

bit of a step up about 3 ft and, and, and getting it down and, and no, you know, seemed not to make an impression of the great agility or great clumsiness. He simply was there and then was step down again and, uh, we're close enough to

00:24:32.869 - 00:24:59.780

notice his reactions and during the part of me, possibly not really, there was a lot of glare. The sun was, was pretty much overhead and, and I was actually in to, well, I was almost at the, the curb where the granite stops and was somewhat back

00:24:59.790 - 00:25:14.849

in the crowd and, and uh, and only had just a vague impression of him that was during a time in which I was not wearing my contact lenses and, and, uh, and I have a pair of glasses through which I see things rather vaguely and I

00:25:14.859 - 00:25:33.630

can see what they are but not in any great detail. And so as what if his face became red or if he scowled or smiled or anything, I could only tell that in just the very most general terms and he appeared to go from being unruffled

00:25:33.640 - 00:25:53.010

at, at the start to put out and just stayed put out throughout the sink. Uh He had apparently from what I heard and from what I recall, he had a very good public presence. He was an excellent lecturer actually in his history course as far as

00:25:53.020 - 00:26:16.109

being a good public speaker. And uh and we simply maintain the, the speakers attitude throughout this thing and, and didn't attempt to or didn't show any signs rather than of, of attempting to sway the crowd with emotion one way or the other just simply there and

00:26:16.430 - 00:26:35.859

having it's more of a v for any kind of an emotional p did he create an impression that he was talking down? Must be? Yes, he did. But he always had, it was no surprise. He thought he, well, he was an old southern gentleman who believed

00:26:35.869 - 00:26:52.280

that people had places that they could, they should be in and it was somebody's place to do something and, and then not to worry about anything else. And he had always felt that way. I think about student government that the the forms of, of self government

00:26:52.290 - 00:27:16.079

might be evident in the student council or, or a college court. But the substance finally has come from above, from the administration from the dean's office and the college masters. And uh in a couple of well known in incidents back in 6263 he made his will

00:27:16.089 - 00:27:36.439

known to the Hampton College Court which then acted in accordance with his will. And there was, he said a very severe and, and restrained old self style in, in the the affairs of Hampton College and in the wearing coats and ties to every seated meal and,

00:27:36.449 - 00:28:06.579

and uh certain gentlemanly code of conduct and, and severe social sanctions against people who, who broke that code. And, uh, you know, in, in that sort of, uh very, very intent upon the form of, of, of endeavors, whether, you know, we're academic apparently or definitely of

00:28:06.589 - 00:28:27.109

social and, and uh, and governmental matters among students. But the substance of, of course, it is always a little bit different from what the form could have it be in the substance in his cases was an authoritarian mode in which he had the final say and,

00:28:27.119 - 00:28:42.859

and then insisted on it and maintained it and, and exercised it even in cases in which he didn't have to. He had apparently a very large personal part in the running of college. Do you use the word authoritarian, uh, in what sense are you? Yeah. So

00:28:42.869 - 00:29:07.810

I'm using it in the sense of standards being, being conveyed from above and obedience, demanded and punishment needed out from above obedience doesn't happen. No, in, instead of a more democratic form of, of government in which the standards are decided upon by majority vote or by

00:29:08.790 - 00:29:30.310

a committee which would then submit such to a majority vote and then the, the forms and substance of punishment and, and, and enforcement of, of the code being a matter of community responsibility with the authoritarian, as I say, it, it, it's a question of, of a

00:29:30.319 - 00:30:00.839

form and substance being imparted from above and, and carefully maintained from above and, and more emphasis on order between these two. Do you see a large uh large variation or uh do you get to a point where it's a pretty fine, fine? Well, there probably is

00:30:00.849 - 00:30:23.449

a point of fine tuning but with, with the case of Hanson College in the early sixties, I think it was a fairly clear cut case of authoritarian management by the master in the college. Was it, uh do you think that it was considered authoritarian for those

00:30:23.459 - 00:30:51.800

days or do you think especially? No, I think especially at Rice. Um with our, our tradition of, well, at least since 58 since the college system started and the lines of communication of decision and of uh response. And, well, apparently even before that were being, these

00:30:51.810 - 00:31:12.650

lines were being worked. Out. But with the college system, with the student government now manageable small units. Uh it was the beginnings of, of steps to of, of an integrated system, both, you know, from above and below of, of, of, of governance of conduct and, and

00:31:12.660 - 00:31:37.660

social activity especially and also of discipline. So that by the middle sixties, by the height of the or you know, the the beginning of the height of the picture here, oh, definite guidelines were already established as to who established policy to what limits anyone's policy making,

00:31:37.670 - 00:32:03.619

the ability to win to what veto powered such policies were sub subject. Uh what the forms of discipline, disciplinary action were to be the college court system uh could act to restrict privileges within the dormitory to a certain extent, could act then and recommendations from the

00:32:03.630 - 00:32:25.479

master in more severe ways could recommend that a person be rusticated or be he was suspended from school. Though, like the only case I could think of offhand in which a student was actually suspended by the action of the college court was the, the case I

00:32:25.489 - 00:32:44.540

may have hinted at a little earlier in which Doctor Masterson asked that the Hampton College Court asked the suspension of two boys who uh who had gotten themselves involved in a mooning incident in Louisiana. A mooning incident of it's where you're driving along the road and

00:32:44.550 - 00:33:04.410

you pull up alongside a car and somebody in the backseat drops his pants. And displays himself to the people in the car next to them. They move on with great laughter and uproarious and they were caught by Louisiana State patrol and, uh, there were three or

00:33:04.420 - 00:33:18.619

four boys in the car, two of whom were from Hampton and they were caught anyway, they had gone to Florida with this alert out for them and they had been caught in Louisiana on their way back. The judge in Louisiana Snickers that said boys will be

00:33:18.630 - 00:33:40.510

boys and let them off the rest of them and sent them home. And, uh, in the one or two cases that were not in Han in college, simply nothing was done. Um, Masterson, it had been heard of here but Masterson insisted that the college court take

00:33:40.520 - 00:34:01.599

action against these people, you know, ungentlemanly conduct and giving the place a bad name and have them suspended or the. Yeah, well, for the semester and they were kicked out for this may have happened at Easter break and ever since we sent home and, or, you

00:34:01.609 - 00:34:20.840

know, sent away and then were permitted to, to return in the, in the fall. So they, they lost the whole semester's credit if incidents, uh, happened in the, yeah, that, I mean, no, it had nothing. No. Is it common for, uh, students to be, uh, prosecuted

00:34:20.850 - 00:34:40.729

on campus for actions done off campus? Not at all. There, there's a, a clause in the student handbook or rather the hand, the hand. Well, it appears in the student handbook. It's actually in the handbook that the Undergraduate Affairs Committee, which is the president, the Deans

00:34:40.739 - 00:35:05.879

of Students, undergraduate Affairs, the advisor to women, um, the college masters. And then let's see, the student body president and the presidents of, of two or three colleges selected in rotation. Anyway, the committee had, had come up by 60 if I get with the handbook outlining

00:35:05.889 - 00:35:31.709

these disciplinary social legislative procedures. And uh it's prefaced with a statement of student responsibility which says very generally that people are expected to behave in the way expected of, of all people responsible in the society or, and you know, to bring no bad reflection upon themselves

00:35:31.719 - 00:35:59.780

or, or right university and, and you know, it's just kind of in general amenities, the him and the, it, it then closes with the, with the thing that the university doesn't reserve the right to suspense to. Well, it wasn't a common thing. No students are, are

00:35:59.790 - 00:36:28.800

commonly, uh very seldom suspended for disciplinary reasons. Mostly it happens with violations of the honor code. All right. The traditionally the worst any dean or any college master or indeed any college court ever does to anybody is a disciplinary probation. There was one case back in

00:36:28.810 - 00:36:50.310

the very early sixties of two people being suspended and for a semester and, and uh I remember being kicked off campus for taking part in the gang bang in the dorm. That's where they, they had a little high school girl playing prostitutes in the dorm and,

00:36:50.449 - 00:37:13.280

and a bunch of people lined up in victory. And it's, that was the only, the only case that had any notoriety at all around. The, the people actually being, you know, putting down administratively on record is discipline was suspended until, until the, the thing Masterson did,

00:37:13.290 - 00:37:29.709

this was two years later then with the two boys who were caught in Louisiana. And since that time, I can think for, you know, of no one except in the case of an honor code violations, which is handled by a special judicial system and the honor

00:37:29.719 - 00:37:49.209

system. He used to work a while ago. I'm not sure. I understand, uh, rusticated, kicked off campus, uh, people living in the dorms and it's, it's, I guess it's, it's from, uh, Oxford or Cambridge where you were, you were urbanized, you were living in the quad.

00:37:49.219 - 00:38:11.129

And if you did anything to upset the, the house that you were living in, you had to move out in the country, please replicate yourself. And, yeah, you, it didn't dis enroll you. It, it, it simply suspended your room and board with no, uh, refund. Sometimes

00:38:11.139 - 00:38:31.219

they would refund money pro rata for people who, who investigated if they could find somebody to take the root. But that's all, you know, that's all done under the business office and, and typically people don't get the money back, but generally discipline has been, has been

00:38:31.229 - 00:38:57.610

good here because it's not, you know, a terribly rowdy place, you know, on an occasional football flare up. Where is it? People start taking Aggies at, from or something. But generally speaking, we don't have a lot of the, uh, of really bad disciplinary problems going on.

00:39:01.070 - 00:39:17.520

Well, getting back to the, uh, the Saturday events, uh, what did you do while, uh, bar was, uh, tied up with the meeting? That and I understand you go for dinner. And so three on conversations with anybody on any subject. Well, not during the afternoon, during

00:39:17.530 - 00:39:40.000

the afternoon, I, I went home and, uh, with Barry and, and she showered and changed clothes to come back. And then we, uh, split up, I went to the library and simply sat up in the, in the music room and, and smoked and read, uh, a

00:39:40.010 - 00:39:58.500

book for psychology class or attempted rather than read a book for psychology class. I didn't, I found it almost impossible to concentrate and avoid it. Come by now, what was going on or, I'd say, well, the student, the college presidents and Warren and Ron and Barry

00:39:58.510 - 00:40:16.510

and Greg and George are all in there with Masterson. And, uh, and then everybody would kind of shrug and commiserate and go away. And then finally they broke up about six o'clock and we went out to dinner with Ron and, I mean, with Warren and Helen

00:40:17.350 - 00:40:32.639

and we were at the office and we were talking about, we were all kind of hysterical giggling about it. We ran into Mr Cadi and managed to involve him in the hysteria. Is he pretty jumpy? Oh, he was uh he was in a, in a bit

00:40:32.649 - 00:40:52.020

of a flap at the time because he had the original faculty petition had not reached the architecture school on Friday afternoon in time for anybody who was anti Masterson in the architecture department to get his uh signature down. And there was a rumor going around among

00:40:52.030 - 00:41:09.290

the architecture students, but Corio had forbidden his department members to, to say anything bad about his friend, Bill Masterson and c was I think he was really kind of shaken. Um And he wanted us to, to tell the architects, we happened to see that this is

00:41:09.300 - 00:41:24.389

not the case and, and Alan Grobman later apologized, but it was actually his fault because he didn't have time to get up to the architecture department before the faculty meeting. And that was the only reason. And then after that, you know, but those assurances given to,

00:41:24.399 - 00:41:42.659

to Claudio that we would tell the architect and we knew he was a nice man and everything then uh he kind of rla them and, and join the joviality to some extent. And no, he stood uh he just stood by the table and, and uh and

00:41:42.669 - 00:41:59.780

we and chatted to them. What's your impressive that you call it? Not very well at all I feel. I know him. I feel I know him somewhat well, vicariously from having heard about him and I, I can talk to him other way. Like, memory never get

00:41:59.790 - 00:42:18.949

along with, like, would say he's a friend or did you ever hear or find out, uh who started the rumor or the suspicion uh in the architecture department? Well, he only said it was student and uh apparently it was not actually that big of a, of

00:42:18.959 - 00:42:38.739

a crisis in the department itself because he is, I think he is fairly well liked. He certainly ought to be. He's a very nice man. And, and uh at what point did think it was, it was it one of the college? No, this was at the

00:42:38.750 - 00:42:58.189

meeting over at Richmond Avenue at Warren and Ron's help on Sunday morning at, at the session at which the uh the the press statement of the student leaders was prepared. But that was, and we were just sort of comparing notes of what had been happening with

00:42:58.199 - 00:43:13.300

us during the last 24 hours. And, and we told our caudel story and, and Grove said, oh, that was my fault because I didn't, I just think we didn't have time to get up to the art Tech department. And you know, there are architects who architecture

00:43:13.310 - 00:43:35.500

faculty who had come to Grove and ask him uh for a for a copy of the petition, but he had not actually physically taken it up there. And then anyway, uh we finished eating it and we went over to the scaring department. It wasn't the least

00:43:35.510 - 00:43:53.979

G's apartment, it was Helen's apartment at the time and, and watched part of a bad movie on television and it was kind of everyone lying around drinking coffee and composing himself for the, for the next belt, which was a scheduled at 10, I think, 1030 maybe.

00:43:53.989 - 00:44:12.489

But anyway, sometime around there. And then finally we went back over and I sat out and, and it was again in the development office conf conference room and I said, uh found in the reception area of the development office talking to Dave Beck with at the

00:44:12.500 - 00:44:32.340

chronicle. And this, I think, I feel that this is probably as much of a contribution as I had to make in the first few days of the thing. And it, it's a qualified one at that because I think Beckwith was not a stupid man. I think

00:44:32.639 - 00:44:49.449

Beckwith probably already knew what was going on. But I attempted to explain to him what it was that was happening, what the real grievances of the student, the faculty protest. What, what revis has stood for. Not so much the man himself again and not so much

00:44:49.459 - 00:45:11.580

the oh the board themselves as, as something in the, in the world, but particularly this whole question is procedure and, and that above all the thing was nonviolent and mhm As far as I was concerned the student Association was going to, to exert every and see

00:45:11.590 - 00:45:27.959

at this point, I actually had no, no function at all and some distance, just a alarm because it, it was getting impossible to stay apart. You know, we were just everyone flying all over the place. And so it was, we were just kind of rounding up

00:45:27.969 - 00:45:48.060

all our people in, in the meeting. And so this was, this was the last meeting at which I was not there. So anyway, I told Beck was that, that this was this whole show so far is the doing of the moderate and, and as far as

00:45:48.070 - 00:46:06.889

I was concerned again, we were going to keep it under control and, and then he, we just kind of talked for a long time about disorders on campuses in general and his experiences as a young man, I know that some place a small school in the

00:46:06.899 - 00:46:28.959

Midwest in um and what was the cause then? And what's the cause now? And just generally making friends? Really? There was the one false alarm where Masterson left for a time and, and uh they thought it was over and, and some people went to the, to

00:46:28.969 - 00:46:51.060

the door of the conference room and, and forest all stuck is hidden in the door and that go away. So we went away again and then finally the thing broke up and, and everybody on the elevator coming down, it was just all the people who've been

00:46:51.070 - 00:47:11.639

meeting with Mason were just sort of caroling and chorusing me like, you know, what a bastard, what a slimy man. What a, you know, he, he apparently would never play straight ball and let the issues be on the table as they really were. And he really,

00:47:11.979 - 00:47:34.100

you know, I'm sure he felt the students had no business in decision making at all and that their opinions counted for little, but he apparently wouldn't play straight a straight game with them. And so they were very upset, very unhappy and looking back on it. Now,

00:47:34.110 - 00:47:52.649

uh, why do you suppose to be a great figure? Well, I thought about that a lot and I thought, well, either one of two things, either, he thought that there was no way in the world he would ever get move aside, then, you know, he was

00:47:52.659 - 00:48:13.840

simply in and, and, uh, you would have the, would have, this was the immediate and most negative interpretation of the whole thing that he felt that he would soon have the power and, and, uh, and he might as well exercise, get a little bit in advance

00:48:13.850 - 00:48:27.129

in the form of, of, you know, blandishments and coercion and brow beating or whatever it took to get the kids on its side. And if you couldn't get them on the side, you simply to, you know, to have them marked down with people to, you know,

00:48:27.139 - 00:48:45.959

to deal with. And that was my immediate reaction and my, my, you know, the most negative thing I came up with. And then later, it, it occurred to me that, that it was also for a lot of other motives, some of which are not altogether negative.

00:48:46.909 - 00:49:04.750

It simply if we met with the student leaders, he would never, the charge would never be able to be leveled against him that he had not in any way con considered the student opinion and this and that, and he had, he had at least attempted to,

00:49:05.629 - 00:49:29.250

to make contact with the students and, and touch base there. So so that, you know, it's a hedge in his favor, but it's still has, he may actually have thought that that the students misunderstood uh something about the thing which he could clarify and uh that

00:49:29.260 - 00:49:46.080

I think was, was, was, was on it, but it was a mistake because he, he understood apparently a lot less about this thing even then. And this was organic, I think, even if it was still a kind of an act of arrogance, you know, assuming that

00:49:46.090 - 00:50:02.959

he as, as a grown up would be able in some way to, you know, to, to explain things to the kids better than they could explain it to him. And so anyway, you know, to, to, to confront the people and, and to make his presence felt

00:50:02.969 - 00:50:16.610

one way or another. And I think he, from what I heard again at that meeting that he, he actually went through a variety of postures and 10 to, to find the nerve of, of, you know, one of the thread that would unravel the, the student s

00:50:16.709 - 00:50:42.310

position. And I'm sure that in the back of his mind and this especially, we called Ronson after we got home that night and, and, uh, and told him essentially what Barry told him what he got on it, uh, that he, he was really looking for for

00:50:42.320 - 00:50:57.409

weak places in the, in the, and the thing in Broughton, it was bra's opinion that then if you could find the weak place, he was simply ready to wash his hands of the, of the whole search committee and the whole due process question and, and, and

00:50:57.419 - 00:51:19.360

take over as, as the trustees had scheduled for him to do without consultation. And, and so when he had called the, the meeting of the committee for the next morning, or it was noonish that it had been called for and we relayed that news, brought some,

00:51:19.379 - 00:51:39.689

brought some. He said that, well, either the committee's gonna vote him in on the spot or else they won't and he'll, and he'll refuse to abide by its decision because it was obviously politically motivated. Did you get the impression at that time that brought, then it

00:51:39.699 - 00:51:55.659

go through on Sunday? Yes, I think he, he was, he was willing to go through it. But, well, he kept saying afterwards that there were just any number of junctures at which the, the board could have pulled it off and in which they blundered their way

00:51:55.669 - 00:52:18.590

right out of their opportunity by, by simply ignoring due process, by acting high handedly, you know, by being authoritarian again, in situations in which a little bit of, of uh obedience to form would have paid off. They simply had no concept of this or had no

00:52:18.600 - 00:52:43.209

willingness to, to consider it at the time. And, and, and we're going to play disgruntled parents of the right community and in doing so, each step along the way, made further and further the the gulf between master and, and the and the the community. So that

00:52:43.219 - 00:53:08.250

by, by Monday, there was no real question in anyone's mind what under the circumstances meant in the phraseology of the ballot. It, it simply meant that under the circumstances that, you know, responsible adult and semi adult human beings have been treated like so many Children of

00:53:08.260 - 00:53:44.979

slaves and, and the, you know, it in the total unwillingness of, of the trustees and, and Masterson to abide by the civilized form and under those circumstances, the man was unacceptable. So anything that especially stands out in your memory, uh Yeah, policy leaders that how, oh,

00:53:44.989 - 00:54:04.770

just kind it was uh what I think I remember is as peak spots of the whole weekend for moments of, of relaxation and tension when people simply run down a little bit and stop you know, if one was in, in public, obviously one had, had to

00:54:04.780 - 00:54:22.340

be contained, but in private people could joke and people could, could unwind a little. And, and so there was some amount of, of, of that kind of nervous banter and, and joviality, especially with, with Milburn and Minor and, and Grove and Madison over there and everybody

00:54:22.350 - 00:54:41.810

kind of, uh, catching their breath for whatever the s was going to bring next. And not a whole lot of, beyond the, the preparation of the statement, a whole lot of talk about anything concrete to do except schedule another meeting for later in the day, which

00:54:41.820 - 00:55:04.679

was done 4022 30 in the geology building. This was the time that, that, uh, Doctor Adam came to talk to us about his success or lack of success was contacting the people he knew was full, the people who knew with any influence at all, with the

00:55:04.689 - 00:55:22.790

trustee to try to get them to reconsider or at least to, to abide by the forms they themselves had established for whatever length of time it took them to, to accomplish what they were trying to accomplish. And, and he was kind of, at the time he

00:55:22.800 - 00:55:51.020

was, he was still kind of skeptical of, of the chances of, of success. Mhm. I guess it's the entire phraseology in this entire, his entire bearing is just sort of conservative or kind of old school anyway, you know. Yeah. Uh, he he's just kind of a

00:55:51.030 - 00:56:09.399

jolly fellow. And his, his metaphor of the whole thing is just, was kind of, you know, military and attends, I think. But I've heard of him talking, he, he tends to think military or business metaphor, but he was very jovial as he always was. And again,

00:56:09.639 - 00:56:24.949

I think he was also kind of cautionary but that, that the, the students ought to keep a very close eye on exactly what they could and couldn't do in this case and, and points beyond which the faculty wouldn't support them. And in this, in this case,

00:56:24.959 - 00:56:43.239

it was talking of a boycott of classes or some such, some such action. Let me have to excuse my desk. Well, uh let's see, we're just talking about the Sunday afternoon meeting before we were interrupted. Yeah. And it was by, by this time we were beginning

00:56:43.250 - 00:57:08.570

to get some idea of the extent and power of the faculty opposition. We knew that numerically the people were strong who opposed the Masterson appointment. We were finding out that uh they also were people, they were big guns blue chips as it were who, who were

00:57:08.580 - 00:57:30.919

throwing in with or, or rather not so much throwing in a as coming out publicly with the opposition and uh the, you know, department chairman and, and uh things and this kind of thing when uh Doctor Adams spoke with you, um you mentioned that he said

00:57:30.929 - 00:57:51.580

that he had been contacting uh, friends of his, the boards of trustees. Um, can you be, can you elaborate on, uh, what he told you about the results of those conversations? Well, I don't remember specifically what he said about the results. Um, a lot of, a

00:57:51.590 - 00:58:11.800

lot of my memory of this now is kind of clouded by the reports we've had of the board's action since then, which has, has been a very narrow minded and very close minded response or lack of response actually towards the right campus. And uh and any,

00:58:11.810 - 00:58:29.500

any attempts that, you know, it seems that there's a line in, in their private lives, even beyond which their friends don't even step in attempting to, to talk about life with them or perhaps a little more fairly stated. I, I think it would be that, that

00:58:29.510 - 00:58:54.290

Malcolm Lovett uh is, is being fairly successful in keeping a two way flow between the community and the board or the rice community and the board uh down to an absolute minimum if if not nothing. I understand that Mr Teague has had lunch this summer even

00:58:54.300 - 00:59:11.659

with Gushi of the alumni board and, and the horsemen and the student government. So it's not a or the first spring break. I can't remember which one came first. That was. But anyway, the break, which would then be a week after all these events. And there

00:59:11.669 - 00:59:29.239

was a general panic on the one hand, you know, an urge to get something done this, this was tempered. On the other hand, by the fact that that the reactions we have made so far, the resolution in the faculty, the resolution of the student meeting, the

00:59:29.250 - 00:59:43.840

orderly demonstration and the orderly dispersal of the demonstration, the meeting with the student leaders that all these things had been done had been done cleanly. And our points in in effect were now made for a good deal of time in in, in terms of the board's

00:59:43.850 - 00:59:59.729

reaction because, you know, the whole question of that, they can't respond as quickly being separate then and, and not meeting very often as the student body who were there on the campus all the time in the pressure cooker. So, you know, we were willing to allow

00:59:59.739 - 01:00:20.280

for, for a bit of a slow response time. And, and, and so anyway, the referendum was announced to us and then we got it around the colleges and there were to be college meetings that evening at which people would get up and speak freely pro and

01:00:20.290 - 01:00:42.379

con almost good. Did you attend that? Well, I spent most of the evening in, in the uh in the Student Association office answering the phone and cranking the Mira and you know, more copies of press statements and just kind of going around and talking to people.

01:00:45.090 - 01:01:08.310

And not until very late when move came back from Brown College, there is, you know, the thing apparently was going very badly, but there was a lot of that wishy washy of here and there. And that a lot of people were getting, apparently one of the

01:01:08.320 - 01:01:21.229

faculty associates and the master of the college were both getting some impression across to the girls that well, after all, they were just little girls and, and they shouldn't go messing around in the affairs of big men. Besides that, you don't want to hurt Mr Masterson

01:01:21.239 - 01:01:48.649

personally by voting. Yes. On the second question to you, etcetera, etcetera. And his name is Doctor Rogers. I mean, yeah, Doctor Rogers, he's a geologist and he is a very strong supporter of uh from local page and, and, uh, you know, it takes a very high

01:01:50.800 - 01:02:14.729

moral stand in, but he feels that the re is real thought to be and discipline with people that kind of. And, uh he, he politically, I guess he's just kind of a Humphrey liberal or, or, you know, a machine liberal and personally be something in conservative

01:02:15.370 - 01:02:36.729

and especially in the, in memorial realness or such a thing. So, anyhow, he, it was not so much him though, it was some of his statements to some extent as it was Doctor Margrave of the chemistry department who was an associate there and other people. And

01:02:36.739 - 01:02:57.580

it seems that all the, the very strong anti masters people with the, at the meeting or at least all the faculty people had kind of gotten up and left and discussed because there was no real, you know, they were just getting tired of hearing this kind

01:02:57.590 - 01:03:11.750

of wishy watching and, and there were people walking up. And so anyway, we got a call with the PS A office that somebody who's gonna come and bail out to meet him because it's just, you know, it's all going to pieces. And so very dashed over.

01:03:11.760 - 01:03:34.389

Does anyone know who made that call? Yeah, Diane Dodson made the call. She and, and her friends a very small core of are really politically active and this in, in this, at least politically active and that, uh, she works, she's a Democratic Party or at least

01:03:34.399 - 01:03:56.770

the liberal wing of the Texas Democrat Democratic Party worker. And, and, uh, and, you know, we as such a lot, a lot more publicly acceptable than, than the couple or three people of Brown College who were in the SPN. But anyway, it was she who called

01:03:56.780 - 01:04:11.760

and, and said, you know, please come with, with these little little baby girls that was falling apart or something like that. So Barry came over and made great during the speech and then she called them all neighbors. And, uh, by that time, Grove, we, we had

01:04:11.770 - 01:04:29.989

been rounding up other people to come to the meeting and Grove was there and minor was there. And, you know, we finally had a, a lot of, a lot of people there to talk and so we left the meeting feeling a lot better. About it. And,

01:04:30.000 - 01:04:40.139

and also there was a bit of a surge because some of some of the other meetings had broken up by then too. And so a lot of people came over to see the excitement and by the time they got there, really, the excitement was over. A

01:04:40.149 - 01:04:57.379

lot of people stood around in little knots talking for a while. You mentioned the names of the, some people who were there. Uh And I got the impression that they were the ones who contributed to uh um the um the pusillanimous. Uh uh the nature of

01:04:57.389 - 01:05:14.250

the was, was Mar Saint Rogers would have been a uh yeah, Margaret. But again, this was only hearsay. This was only in the report that we got on the telephone. But he was one of those who was, who was suggesting caution on the thing that you

01:05:14.260 - 01:05:33.659

don't wanna, you know, you don't wanna break the man's reputation and you don't wanna uh make you born unhappy, you know, or getting over your hip essential, especially because you're your students though. Again, this was reported, it seems that it could be easily that the, this

01:05:33.669 - 01:05:47.040

feeling was simply imparted or even dreamed up or, you know, kind of imagined in, in kind of a paranoid fashion by whoever made the call. But anyway, it certainly, you know, when we got there, it was, it was just, it was kind of like a bridge

01:05:47.050 - 01:06:05.949

club, you know, and they were just kind of falling apart and into a big women's club party. And unfortunately, you know, that one just not the kind of atmosphere to have anywhere in the student's body on the day before or at the end, if you had

01:06:05.959 - 01:06:23.649

to have some kind of solidity of fever. And, and so anyway, this, this solidity was, was, don't back up. I don't remember if scar I got over there in time, but those were, was there and, and NTD was there because the Jones bleeding had just woken

01:06:23.659 - 01:06:48.699

up and, and so we were the, the strong and, and that vocal ante all managed or mostly managed to make their appearance before the meeting was over and the next day with the vote and it seems, no, I'm not doing the surgery. It seems to me

01:06:48.709 - 01:07:12.820

that I may have gone to class on that morning, but I don't remember what happened. I recall, um, at what point the referendum the was changed in wording on part two from, uh, I approve or disapprove of the, uh, selection. So under the present circumstances, I,

01:07:13.020 - 01:07:34.639

we were dis the election. It was, it was, well, apparently there was more of a flap than the brown flap because it was reported right at the end of the, the Brown meeting. Now that was an incident that I completely forgotten. As a matter of fact,

01:07:35.820 - 01:07:53.860

the wording change came late. But I don't know. All I know is that Warren came, came running in here. You know, I have here a document that and it was to change wording document. Yeah, but I don't know who I, who instigated it, who approved it

01:07:53.870 - 01:08:14.620

or anything like that. All I know is that, yeah, it was done. Does that trap the inr move to g more negative vote? Well, it struck me, it, it struck me at the time for its honesty because there were a lot of it not merely took

01:08:14.629 - 01:08:36.189

over or more votes, but we were not actually after assassinating a man's character or anything of the kind that, you know, at this stage, we were simply trying to, to measure, you know, some kind of response to Masterson's response to the crisis already, you know, that

01:08:36.200 - 01:09:00.680

he has in the eyes of, of anybody who had been there on Saturday, certainly showed himself not to be of what the students would consider presidential caliber in his actions of the meeting on Saturday afternoon to Saturday evening. It was, you know, this might simply have

01:09:00.689 - 01:09:19.799

reflected how he, how he was reacting, you know, existentially to one situation and, and thinking existentially and a lot of people around here are likely to do this kind of thing. It's difficult to say that that you totally disapprove of a man for what he's done

01:09:19.810 - 01:09:36.020

on what occasion. And, and so the, the wording change, you know, I suppose this is, or ought to be, or, or at least is the way I conceive of it ought it being, ought to be true of a university in any case that, that you have

01:09:36.029 - 01:09:55.970

to qualify, you know, you don't, this is the last place in the world that you vote on in generalization because, you know, here is the place where you take the generalizations apart and test them for validity and, and it would be, you know, rather furious, I

01:09:55.979 - 01:10:11.779

think too, to have an entire student, faculty of student body and faculty of, of a university voted on a generalization because obviously a lot of people didn't know masters in at all. And a lot of people knew him very well and liked him for most things

01:10:11.790 - 01:10:24.180

but wouldn't have him present over the dead body. And it would really possibly cause a lot of mental anguish to people who would they disapproved period, you know, if they chose him three years ago yet, or maybe if they chose him next year, but not now.

01:10:24.720 - 01:10:44.810

And so, you know, you had to put him, give him the situation, but again, where the actual stimulus to change it came from and who did the actual changing? All I know is that Warren and Dean Gordon apparently had been together on the deal to get.

01:10:44.990 - 01:11:13.589

And uh so that was perhaps why we couldn't find water when we were looking for the ground. Me, let's say, say Monday then was the um was the vote on the referendum? And again, I can't remember what I did. Monday morning, I sat at the pool

01:11:15.129 - 01:11:42.640

in Anderson Hall, I mean, in the, the student center and noon to three o'clock, I think when they close punch blanket, Texas, did you, uh, have any impressions about, uh, the percentage of total students who voted? Well, I have an impression because I counted them. I

01:11:42.649 - 01:12:02.830

was one of the four who counted both. But even at the time I was getting at the polls, I kept thinking the turnout is staggering. Just point. There are little uh knots of, of Hindu and, and uh Chinese and Japanese graduate students whom one never sees

01:12:04.049 - 01:12:20.620

one is aware of them because they live around the campus and we see them driving around, but they, they're not usually in evidence and certainly it would seem that they were not terribly up with what was going on here and there on campus, but the numbers

01:12:20.629 - 01:12:42.509

of which even they turned out to vote, uh graduate students in general. Uh I do remember one thing for Monday morning. Now I was, you know, part of the meeting at which the graduate Student Association was formed and, and the, the big pitch that have given

01:12:42.520 - 01:13:01.790

both for graduate students unity and for a no hold on uh first thing at the same time and I wasn't on that and I thought that was very exciting and, you know, because it, it always seems unfair that graduate student had to pay a lot of

01:13:01.799 - 01:13:21.899

fees in which they had no say and had to, well, essentially he had no say at all in, in there in their own social lives, in their own non classroom lives at all. And that, you know, and in the area which was regulated and it seemed

01:13:21.910 - 01:13:41.910

that they really ought to have that in some formalized way and just to see them finally cold wet and, uh, that, that was very nice because, you know, a huge number of people were in the lecture lounge here in Thrum spilling out in the hallway. It

01:13:41.990 - 01:14:00.450

is very nice. We went over and set the full and, and the numbers were just as I said, incredible. And people were coming up postdoctoral fellows who have no valid status as student faculty or staff there. But, but have ID cards, of course, because they, you

01:14:00.459 - 01:14:28.259

know, have library cards and being very disappointed that they couldn't vote in this pregnancy. And so finally, then we went up and counted the vote. There was Doctor Gruber and Doctor P King of the math department and Ron Bosman and I, and we counted and pledged

01:14:28.270 - 01:14:49.759

each other to secrecy and I feel I still unbound my place and uh then to the results in to Warren who was over, I'm not sure whether he was at Alan's house or love's house fatigues house. But Warren and Gordon were had already come out there

01:14:49.770 - 01:15:19.180

for dinner and conversation that evening and the results were respond to them and the way I understand it, um It got around through Teague to certain people who knew Masterson Masterson in any case, was told according to Street Fulton that the, well, I'm getting ahead anyway,

01:15:19.470 - 01:15:43.459

uh, on Tuesday morning, we had, had the meeting at which everybody's nerves had begun to tell and, and nobody was, people are having a difficult time maintaining the, the poise and the trust of the previous four or five days. It was just, you know, find the

01:15:43.479 - 01:16:00.299

ragged edge of tension, all action that was possible at the time that we had deemed meeting as a group to be possible, had now been accomplished. And it was simply a question of awaiting results. And so when Warren was very close mouthed about what had gone

01:16:00.310 - 01:16:19.080

on over with the trustees the night before and when neither run nor I nor war would, would tell the result simply because it was, you know, we had, well, we had finally reached points at which we were beginning not to trust people, but we felt people

01:16:19.089 - 01:16:39.939

were holding back on it or something. And then it was just, you know, simply a case of, of tension and the reaction of tension and Tuesday is really a blur because I don't remember anything except that we had a meeting scheduled for five o'clock of now,

01:16:39.950 - 01:17:03.359

the com combined student leader group, which now included me has been funding plus the blue chip faculty group. College Master's Department chairman, members of the executive committee and Syndrome that, uh W Gordon is a chairman. All we knew was that we were going to meet at

01:17:03.370 - 01:17:22.660

five o'clock and there was going to be discussion of what was going to be done next. And everybody was standing around. Um, the student center threw about four on or so waiting for the meeting to start. And we were listening to KL of course, that we

01:17:22.669 - 01:17:47.569

had all through the thing and we were, you know, we heard the first reading of the resignation telegram and I cried, I just kept, it was, we'd saved, you know, I thought, well, we'd save it, you know. Right. We save and, uh, I was very happy.

01:17:48.430 - 01:18:07.810

It was very sad, but, you know, I, it was not very sad. I must admit that, you know, it may be somewhat sad that a man's reputation has been damaged in the process, but at that point, through the entire, you know, the magnitude of the risk

01:18:07.819 - 01:18:30.899

we've taken and the risks certainly that a lot of the, the faculty here is taking and sticking their necks out. It seemed at the time that the, especially that, you know, the retreat Masterson had always had behind him, especially since the, the. And I don't know

01:18:30.910 - 01:18:45.990

whether now it was a rumor or not that it was, somebody had said on, on, uh Monday that, well, if Masterson quit here, he could go back to the, to the Tennessee State system, the, you know, the deal having supposedly been that, that Chattanooga was to

01:18:46.000 - 01:19:02.430

become a state school and, uh, the Masterson didn't want to be part of the state school. And how fortunate it was that the right presidency just happened to be becoming open. But anyway, that anyway, he had been, had already been offered the job as chancellor at

01:19:02.439 - 01:19:19.339

Chattanooga under the state system if, if he wanted it. And so it wasn't all that much of a tragedy for him as far as I was concerned at the time. But, but I was really quite happy that rises and things. And so we thought, and, and

01:19:19.350 - 01:19:37.609

it, you know, it was a very noble meeting. Everybody was happening around there striving to master himself one way or another. I was trying to quit sniffling and the jubilation was being suppressed and, and some people are just unwinding slowly and, oh, I don't want to

01:19:37.620 - 01:19:58.979

hear the kinds of things people were saying, you know, faculty people getting up and congratulating the students and, and other faculty people getting up to correct them and saying it's ridiculous to congratulate people for behaving as they should behave. And, and, uh, and, you know, all

01:19:59.000 - 01:20:22.680

the focus is about how everybody had faith in everybody else. And so with that, the committee just kind of suspended itself and that there was obviously nothing more to do for the immediate foreseeable future and, and simply we let the board get back in touch. I've,

01:20:22.689 - 01:20:41.620

uh got an impression on this boat but, uh that, uh, the estimate that were given in the conic was a little on the high side. Did you agree or just read that? I don't remember, I don't, I really don't remember what the chronical estimated in, in,

01:20:41.629 - 01:21:14.609

in terms of numbers or in terms of percentage to 85%. Well, the faculty, this is only the number two, there's only unanimous one out of one and a two is about 8 5% of the faculty. Yeah, under 90% of, of the that will be, no, I

01:21:14.620 - 01:21:47.350

don't remember. Well, it's close within a factor of, you know, 10 or 15 or maybe, you know, five in each direction or something like that. But these, but these people were more than the type of. Mhm. Those part ways. Well, it wasn't actually to me, at

01:21:47.359 - 01:22:17.589

least because I knew that Masterson did have them and there were very few students around to whom Masterson is a personal issue. Anyone that remember it personally or anything of that kind. And so it was simply a question in the abstract to them, whereas it was,

01:22:17.600 - 01:22:41.000

it was a much harder decision, I think for the fact that OK, well, I say we've got almost to the end of our story. Is there anything that uh you'd like to add as a sum up the impression of what uh well, uh there was one

01:22:41.009 - 01:23:00.439

thing I wanted to uh ask you to elaborate on, you mentioned earlier that some of your impressions of this event have been colored by later events and actions by the board. Could you tell me what some of those events are? Uh well, the, the first thing

01:23:00.450 - 01:23:30.810

the board did was to reorganize the administration or the, you know, the top echelons to essentially to keep the uh the ruling triumph are on and vice presidency at 1/4 vice presidency um for administration, which turned out to be for student affairs or rather, you know,

01:23:30.819 - 01:23:44.870

for, for supervising the, the activities in the registrar and the dean's offices and this kind of thing. And, and so in that four head heading, there's one for business, one for humanities, one for sciences, there always has been and then now there's a vice president for

01:23:45.740 - 01:24:06.720

uh administration and then uh uh naming an acting president, it had been fairly much a foregone conclusion that if, if they were to name an acting president at that time, it would not be Gordon because Gordon had pretty well black in his name with the board

01:24:06.729 - 01:24:21.399

for his role in the, in the, in the master and think whether no, no matter what his feelings were, and I think he really should keep the trail and well hidden from the public. At least it was certainly to the board, any kind of activism, any

01:24:21.410 - 01:24:40.080

kind of taking sides in matters which they felt or not properly decided outside their, they were on delivery. You know, he was a suspect and, and frowned upon it was, you know, this kind of active activism that, that they disapproved of, especially in Pitzer because Pitzer

01:24:40.089 - 01:25:05.549

kept, um, fostering this kind of activism. He wanted people to be involved and he wanted people to, to come out as much as, as, you know, have a discussion first of what's reasonably someone's province and, and then, and then uh find ways for that person and

01:25:05.560 - 01:25:22.470

to assume responsibility for that problem and you know, retaining all the time and knowledge. Of course, the board is responsible ultimately and that the president has a lot of papers to sign and, and in doing so, you know, he himself has responsibility but, you know, within

01:25:22.479 - 01:25:38.919

the, the the governance of, of the of smaller realms, sub units should function. And the board especially now is trying to, well, they, they're kind of straining appears, it appears to me two ways against the image of that they'd like to keep of rice is a

01:25:38.930 - 01:25:55.209

small in a middle school where everybody knows everybody and is rice of rice as an expanding technical institute under, you know, a great 10 year plan to double five this kind of thing. And so we've been hearing a lot of this kind of thing, a lot

01:25:55.220 - 01:26:21.270

from Teague about right, should emphasize engineering more. And uh so anyway, the the reorganization was announced and, uh, it didn't really surprise me a whole lot that Vander who was chosen as acting president. But I was not then, and then really not too much now, even

01:26:21.279 - 01:26:47.879

distressed as he is the acting president because I think he, he will do, he will not do enough to get himself or anybody else into too much trouble. It's just not his administrative style. He, you know, he quit that big thing. He uh just kind of,

01:26:49.790 - 01:27:04.750

he kind of backs away from situations and, and doesn't like to get himself too terribly involved in things that they become uncomfortable. And so for an acting president, if, if it was an ideal choice, I felt that the man couldn't leave too much of a lasting

01:27:04.759 - 01:27:23.279

impact on, on rice and any policy decisions that he might be, you know, called upon to approve or disapprove or to make himself. And except for the one bauble in the Freeman case, I think Vandever himself has been doing quite a, an all right job and

01:27:23.290 - 01:27:40.799

Vanderberg has admitted that, you know, that it was a bubble, but it was his decision, you know, and then now he realizes there are un unclarity questions about the role of, of uh faculty committee in the administrative structure, but, you know, he at least has assumed

01:27:40.810 - 01:27:56.419

the responsibility for having done what he did. And I think that was, that was really decent. I am a little little, I am still distressed that the development office had any say in all in deciding whether or not the SDF is gonna have a regional conference

01:27:56.430 - 01:28:15.000

here. I think that it is not apr man's job to make policy. The pr man's job either to say anything or nothing about policy about events once they've happened, I mean, it's nice if you can stage a press conference or if you can put out a

01:28:15.009 - 01:28:33.040

prepared statement or release, but releases are not the same thing as events and, and if you influence events from the pr chair, you're on very dangerous grounds. And I think Estes found this out both from the student body and the faculty who were opposed to his

01:28:33.049 - 01:28:56.759

action in the, in the SDS and also from the administration. I mean, from the trustee. Mhm. Well, this summer, there is some pressure on the development office, economic pressure, their budgets being cut, people are getting fired. It seems to mm now whether it has any, see,

01:28:56.770 - 01:29:13.870

this is a causal link I'm not yet willing to make, but it there is one school that, that says that they um it's simply a matter that the trustees are too naive to, to consider pr proper function in the university. And if they can handle it

01:29:13.879 - 01:29:33.540

themselves, all fundraising and pr can, can be taken care of by the trustees themselves. We know from the big staff and press agents and the fundraisers to do it. And then there's this other school that says they're, they're punishing estes for his of activism again. But

01:29:33.549 - 01:29:48.109

in any case, you know, he was having budgetary problems having and he was having trouble spending money that was in last year's budget, but it's apparently a unilateral action right now on the part of the business man, we don't know. But anyway, I disapproved of that

01:29:48.120 - 01:30:08.629

and, and I see kind of that the machinations of the board, the board, you know, would not meet with the committee on the undergraduate experience. Uh Just, you know, Lovett appeared to the presidential search committee and the school and read a statement that you might have

01:30:08.640 - 01:30:36.229

heard. I'm sure you've heard by now, you know, the board of trustees will select the next president of Rice University and the faculty will accept it in good grace. This is the policy statement I have heard that. Well, Chapman asked has, has been a to prepare

01:30:36.240 - 01:30:59.220

a statement on uh campus disorders, you know, policy statement, Chapman has gone to Minny and has gone to broaden and some other people on the faculty and asked that faculty students and administration come up with their own version first, then the three groups get together and

01:30:59.229 - 01:31:28.609

work out a final version. Well, uh the faculty group put together a a draft of very innocuous draft simply, you know, fighting responsibility, begging that as responsible adults, the faculty be committed to, you know, to govern their own behavior, that kind of thing. Uh it, it

01:31:28.620 - 01:31:47.870

was brought to us in a coffee to love it. Lovett told one of the members of this law firm who happens to be offended. Pro uh they come in and look at this list of demand for property center. So, you know, I'm still very pessimistic because

01:31:47.879 - 01:32:12.830

there, there's still no sign that the, the trustees have learned anything that the trustees won't come in and, and, you know, morale here is already pretty low. Faculty, people are, you know, kind of poised with one edge on, on the, I mean, you know what to

01:32:12.839 - 01:32:32.020

put on the ground, ready to rub it if it happens, if anything, the student body is getting, you know, by terms militant and apathetic and, and very erratic and discipline, which had not been a problem before is getting to be a problem though, not in any

01:32:32.029 - 01:32:52.919

kind of overt ways yet. It's just normal indications that people are just getting fed up with this thing. Uh very because it more people have busted out this semester this past semester than ever before in history. And it's, you know, nervous breakdowns of suicide and drug

01:32:52.939 - 01:33:04.680

you because, you know, the whole the the morale here is getting low and another year of the kind of tension we went through last spring and I'm afraid the university is not gonna make it. So this is in, you know, in the light of all these

01:33:04.689 - 01:33:27.890

events and then I, I qualify my enthusiasm for it, the momentary success, I am still happier that master is not present because for the time being, at least we still have our old framework of, of, of rules in the way of doing things to, to go

01:33:27.899 - 01:33:49.979

on with guidelines. They wouldn't last under him. You either ignore them or, or manage formally to abolish them because ultimately, the president can unilaterally make a policy and I am afraid he really would have screwed up. But, ok, that's, that's pretty much it. Well, I certainly

01:33:49.990 - 01:34:01.399

appreciate the time you've given us. It's, uh, and it's, it's been very generous with that because I, uh, it makes you very insightful some of you. I really appreciate you coming. Thank you.