00:00:00.400 - 00:00:21.290

Um on this uh second installment of, of uh your memoirs of this four day weekend there, uh What I'd like for him to concentrate on today. Uh Recognizing that we may want to uh get together again sometime in the future. If you could uh protect your

00:00:21.299 - 00:00:43.349

mind back to the Saturday press conference. The magician had, uh I think that, uh you, you describe that very well and now if you could uh continue from there and then you from there and uh let me know what uh your activities were that I, and

00:00:43.360 - 00:00:56.909

then you get into the uh meeting of the student leaders uh with Masterson on the 30th in the evening. I, my, my activities between the press conference and the actual meeting with Masterson are kind of disappointing. Um I wore a heavy dress and boots to the

00:00:56.919 - 00:01:08.839

March because it was kind of cool that morning. And whenever I get depressed, I get to feeling dirty. So I went home and took a shower and by the time I took a nice shower and as I recall, shaved my legs because it always makes me

00:01:08.849 - 00:01:24.410

feel pure. Um, and got dressed again. I came back and it was time for the meeting with Matthewson. And in the meantime, I just kind of conversed with my husband, um, the other Barry Kine interview kind of cursorily. Mostly he made me a blue sandwich and,

00:01:24.419 - 00:01:43.220

um, we decided that indeed Masterson had made fool of himself and we were in terrible trouble. Ok. So I came back to school clean and went to the meeting. It was, um, of course about the, oh, yeah. Right. Um Before or during the press, the, the

00:01:43.230 - 00:02:01.339

time when we were out in front of Lovett Hall while Masterson pa press conference, um Warren Scarin or Doctor Brotton, I really can't remember which one informed me that there were to be two meetings that afternoon and that because of kind of a dual role I

00:02:01.349 - 00:02:18.949

had, I was to be at both of them. The first one was to be at two with um student leaders, right? And that was to be the college presidents and the two people from the Student Association, Ron and Warren and three students on the committee. And

00:02:18.960 - 00:02:32.179

then there was to be a meeting at four or 430. I really can't remember when because it never happened with the members of the Bronson committee, the faculty Student selection committee as it happened. Of course, that meeting never took place because the student meeting wasn't over

00:02:32.190 - 00:02:47.410

until midnight. Um So I knew I had to be back two for one of them. But anyway, and I came back and it was to be held in a conference room, a seminar room in Razor Hall, which is a classroom building on campus. And the students

00:02:47.419 - 00:03:01.059

were all there at two on the dot You know, ties and everything. But, um, Doctor Masterson was somewhat late on any luncheon engagement. And so, and the room was locked, of course. And so we had some time to kill and we kind of hung around out

00:03:01.070 - 00:03:16.600

in the hall talking about what was gonna happen. Yeah, that, yeah, I had very good, we were all really nervous because we had this terrible feeling that, you know, the, the weight of the whole thing was on our heads and what, what in the world were

00:03:16.610 - 00:03:28.350

we going to do? Because we'd heard a lot of rash talk right after the press conference. People were saying strike, strike, you know, and just all kinds of nasty things. They were just so mad, they didn't know what to do. And, um, we didn't know, I

00:03:28.360 - 00:03:40.770

mean, we, we all had been different places for those, that hour, some of the kids had gone back to the colleges for lunch and heard people being very angry in the colleges. I remember they re reported that of course, I haven't heard anything. Was there any

00:03:40.779 - 00:04:01.210

blood specials report out in your mind? Was not really, not really. I, all I remember was that we all felt a little out of our out of our depth and most of the conversation was just kind of the nervous joking sort of thing that you do

00:04:01.220 - 00:04:17.950

at a time like that. You know, about how verily we would all hang together or separately. We had no, no way out but to hang. And, um, when doctor Masterson arrived, we were, we were really embarrassed the way you're embarrassed around somebody who's made an utter

00:04:17.959 - 00:04:31.549

ass of himself. But, um, Lee Estes, the development office director, what do they call him was with him? And he had the key to the room, which was good. Um And we kind of put everybody through ease making a little small talk while I got the

00:04:31.559 - 00:04:47.029

room unlocked and got us inside and the magnet came then too. And once we got in the room, we once again, we're very ill at ease and nervous. I, I think mainly because we were in this, it was a faculty seminar room and we all were

00:04:47.040 - 00:05:09.959

dressed up for heaven's sakes and there was Doctor Masterson and we had to do something. So Warren started it off as I recall va kind of asking Doctor Mathewson just and did he understand exactly how widespread the feeling was against him because he had made that

00:05:09.970 - 00:05:24.880

comment, of course, at the press conference that he didn't see any opposition and there we all were. Um And well, I, I think I ought to say a kind of overall thing for the first part of the meeting, which lasted until about six when we went

00:05:24.890 - 00:05:44.510

for dinner during that hope what, four hour period, we were playing games on about four different levels and Doctor Masterson was playing games on just as many and Lee S just, you know, was playing all of our games at once and Dean mcenany was being quiet

00:05:44.519 - 00:05:59.500

most of the time and none of us were ever honest with anybody else. I mean, that's really true that nobody ever said what he really thought that whole time. And needless to say it led to a very fruitless meeting. Uh, we tried to be polite about

00:05:59.510 - 00:06:11.920

hitting around to doctor Masterson. That wasn't even that we just couldn't help agreeing that he seemed to be unworthy and that he had stepped into a terrible situation. We kept telling him how sorry we were for him and we were, we really were because it was

00:06:11.929 - 00:06:28.989

just an ungodly situation to be in. And he kept telling us, you know, how much he loved rice. That was one level. And, um, hell he really felt he was the right man for the job because he understood rice. And I was thinking privately at the

00:06:29.000 - 00:06:40.769

time. Well, for heaven sakes, how, how can you say you understand rice when you don't even understand why people are upset about your appointment? And I found out later that everybody was thinking that but none of us would admit it to each other. Not even in

00:06:40.779 - 00:06:58.010

little looks. And Doctor Masterson, part of the time when he was playing one game would seem quite reasonable about it and kept asking us, what do we think he ought to do? And we kept telling him, please, sir, you've gotta go to the committee and let

00:06:58.019 - 00:07:10.899

the committee interview you. This is Doctor Bronson's committee, of course, and um kind of come to a conclusion, a recommendation to the board, not a binding recommendation, but certainly one that the board will listen to. And after you find out what that is, maybe you and

00:07:10.910 - 00:07:28.220

the board together can decide what to be done. And we kept saying that in different ways and he kept partially agreeing and partially disagreeing all about how, well the board, the committee could not have a veto power over the board. And weren't we actually suggesting that

00:07:28.230 - 00:07:41.519

it would have such a veto power? And we kept saying no, no, no. And of course, what we really meant was, yes. Yes. Yes. Um, not that legally it should. But morally, you know, we deep in our hearts, we thought it ought to get to veto

00:07:41.529 - 00:07:57.899

him. Ok. Um, and then Doctor Masterson, this dis stretched me. No end, gave us a little sob story. And that's all it was about how his career was on the line and all about his wife and his Children, about how his wife and his Children meant

00:07:57.910 - 00:08:12.510

more to him than almost anything including rice and I'm really not impressed, you know, by the, by the fate of his 16 year old daughter who have, oh, she is how humiliated she will be in Chattanooga Society. And, um, he could see that, that line of

00:08:12.519 - 00:08:29.049

argument, the personal tragedy was not getting anywhere with it. So he kind of dropped it. And sooner or later after all these just terrifically involved games, it didn't stick in my mind at all because they meant nothing, absolutely nothing. We finally arrived at this very jovial

00:08:29.059 - 00:08:42.468

conclusion that he would issue a statement. Um And Lee, we all wrote it down and Lee got it down and it was, you know, we were really excited about it, but he hadn't decided yet if he was going to issue it. And what the statement was

00:08:42.479 - 00:08:54.919

to say if he issued it was that he agreed to meet with the Boson Committee and he thought this was a wise and good thing to do, although they would not have veto power, they would be able to recommend for what should be done. And he,

00:08:54.929 - 00:09:08.599

then he said, well, actually it was time for dinner. And why didn't we have a little break? And he talked to the people he needed to talk to, which was, which means the board and decide if the statement was to be released? We said, well, ok,

00:09:08.609 - 00:09:26.239

fine. Um and jovially agreed that what we should all do is go and have some dinner and come back at nine o'clock, he said it would be that long until he knew what he could do. Or maybe it was 930. I really can't remember. Um, and

00:09:26.250 - 00:09:43.030

talk that it's more, maybe, you know, make the decision, issue a statement, it would hit, it'll be fine. And we all said, ok, and he left and le has left. Indeed, Mac. And the door closed and we all looked at each other and we all just

00:09:43.039 - 00:09:55.359

admitted that we all thought individually that we were the only ones not to be taken in that everybody else in the group was taken in by this man and felt sorry for him and wanted to do everything to smooth over the situation and have him be

00:09:55.369 - 00:10:12.510

President of Rice. And we realized when we start talking, I mean, it was perfectly apparent. The minute the man left the room that we, we all agreed that he had, it was just a lot of crap that we'd all been playing games. It was a useless

00:10:12.520 - 00:10:28.210

interview. He didn't know what we thought. We didn't, we certainly didn't know what he thought and we certainly didn't like him, but we still didn't know what to do because we were nervous. I mean, what could we do? Really? And uh, so we went, we went

00:10:28.219 - 00:10:42.859

out to dinner and uh, when I was leaving, I walked out with Lauren and Ron as our call, we were just chatting and uh we had agreed all of us, including Doctor Masterson and everybody not to tell anybody what was going on that we were having

00:10:42.869 - 00:10:56.890

a dinner break, period that we'd let people know later. Ok. And so Warren and Ron and I walked out and ran into Dave Beck with the Chronicle reporter and Dave, you know, he knew that we wouldn't tell him anything and we knew that we wouldn't tell

00:10:56.900 - 00:11:10.630

him anything, but we had a nice time playing around about it and he was sneaking around corners and it was entertaining. And then we ran into, um, and Barry, my husband who was coming to meet me and he had been out chewing fingernails all afternoon talking

00:11:10.640 - 00:11:25.020

with people mostly in the student center. And he'd gone home for a while and we decided that we would Ron had to go meet somebody for dinner, he had a date or something or had to break a date. And, um, we decided that Warren and his

00:11:25.030 - 00:11:40.179

fiance, um, Hill and Griffin, they've since been married and Barry and I would go out to dinner and we also agreed, Maura and I, that we would tell Helen and Barry everything that was going on because although we promised not to tell anybody, I don't count

00:11:40.190 - 00:11:53.219

husbands as anybody because we always tell each other everything and I have more faith in him than I do in me about keeping secrets. So we did. And anyway, it would have been impossible without it. So we went to Alfred's, the Alfred's on still a link.

00:11:53.229 - 00:12:07.900

Future historians can look on maps. You know, we're, is still a link, right? Oh, anyway, we went out there and, um, we got to Alfred's and we noticed that the Saturday papers now, by this time it's, you know, after seven, the Saturday papers had not hit

00:12:07.909 - 00:12:29.010

the stands, the, uh, the late chronicle or either the morning paper and the, the Saturday Chronicle comes out at four o'clock in the afternoon, three o'clock really early and there wasn't a paper. Well, you said Ho Ho Houston Endowment, they own the Chronicle. Um, they're very

00:12:29.020 - 00:12:42.479

big and, right. Somebody's sweating about what to put in the paper and there weren't any Sunday papers out either. So that meant the Post went out and, um, we were giggling and snickering about how, um, Mrs hobby you'll be to call Bobby, the owner of the

00:12:42.489 - 00:12:56.380

Post. And a member of our board trustee was sweating somewhere about what to put in the paper. And, um, we went into the outfits and this is kind of interesting because we ran into Mr Cell. Um, a member, the architect was a member of the Broad

00:12:56.390 - 00:13:08.789

some committee and Mr Cell just happened to be out to dinner with some friends and, um, he wanted to know what in the world was going on. What kind of trouble were we getting him into? And we kind of told him in guarded terms that funny

00:13:08.799 - 00:13:21.840

things were happening and we certainly didn't know what to think of. Doctor Masterson. And we were having a dinner break and we couldn't tell him anything else. So he patted us and said, oh, please be easy on him because he was old. He's not really old

00:13:22.919 - 00:13:39.739

and wandered away nightmare dinner and just joked about the thing. And we went over to Helen's house and we're gonna watch television or do anything mindless until nine. And the more we talk about the situation, the more radical in quotes, big quotes around radical it became

00:13:39.750 - 00:13:52.049

and, and Martin and I kind of reached the same conclusion that we just couldn't have that man as President of Rice. He was too slimy. He really was slimy. OK. And so then it was time to get back to the development office, which is where we

00:13:52.059 - 00:14:06.780

were to meet Doctor Masterson. We got back and everyone else on the students came back and the same thing had happened to everybody. This is what's really interesting is we were all separated. The only two people who were together during that time that I know of

00:14:06.789 - 00:14:25.020

were me and Lauren and, um, Anne Jones and Nancy diets, the president elect and past president of Jones College who had dinner together and talked about it. But everybody came back just mad off the door. Yeah. Yeah, that was saying we all came back again and

00:14:25.030 - 00:14:41.609

quote, it's radicalized. Everybody was quite determined that we've been really taken in and that we weren't gonna be that soft on, demanded that it was just ridiculous if we were going to be, oh, rubber stamps or doormats or whatever, you know, that we had no business

00:14:41.619 - 00:14:51.640

being there and we had to do something. Ok. So we plotted and skied. What are we gonna do? You know? Well, we didn't know what we were gonna do. We're gonna wait and see what he did, but we were gonna be tougher at this time and

00:14:51.650 - 00:15:12.039

we waited and we waited and it was very late. It was past 10 by the time we got there. Uh No, I just, yeah, we found this conference room in the development. They stuck us in and we just kind of huddled in there and somebody would

00:15:12.049 - 00:15:26.989

go out from time to time. Um, Lee and his staff were all huddled in their main workroom kind of worrying and, well, everybody was sitting around in different rooms worrying, but we were alone and finally Lee arrived. Oh, no, he wasn't out there. It was the

00:15:27.000 - 00:15:44.369

rest of his staff, George New and John Durham and some other friends of ours were waiting. Um, until finally Lee and Masterson came in and I came into our room and one of the things that amazed me was that Lee who is a personal friend of

00:15:44.989 - 00:15:59.229

love. Me and Barry, I was in for a good long while and I call him Lee, not mistress and have been drunk, you know, at the same time he was, um, and it was very friendly towards students. He's a fine man he really is with, on

00:15:59.239 - 00:16:12.989

this occasion, he walked in with Masterson and he stood in a corner and crossed his arms across his chest and looked really stern, most stern and nasty I've ever seen Lee look as though he, and he looked really worn as though he'd been through a lot

00:16:13.000 - 00:16:27.510

that evening if I'm sure he was, had been. Um, and it's funny you wouldn't smile at us. You know, I mean, you wouldn't say hello. I mean, we said hello, but it wasn't, you know, English. Well, hello, Lee. How are you? How's the development business? Um,

00:16:28.369 - 00:16:44.909

and Doctor Masterson was similarly very stern and we read the face and I learned later that he gets red in the face and he gets angry and just not at all. The jovial Masterson who was gonna go along with everything that we said as he was

00:16:44.919 - 00:16:55.489

before. This was so peculiar because of course, the same thing has hap had happened to him as it happened to us. He decided that we'd been too nice to each other to realize that nobody had said anything. He was gonna stay his position and that was

00:16:55.500 - 00:17:11.459

it. So we start talking to him again and he said, no, he wasn't going to meet with the committee. Absolutely not. And we said why? And he explained that that would be a veto power again, if I recall, I mean, this argument was kind of lengthy

00:17:12.750 - 00:17:26.979

and we toss that around a lot. And um, he explained to us some plans he had for rice because he was working under the impression that we were to accept the fact that he was President of Rice. And he told us all that he thought the

00:17:26.989 - 00:17:47.810

residential colleges were important and undergraduate studies were important and that didn't work out. So what we thought that would win us over. But as it happened, um most of us are in favor of increasing graduate school, better university graduate schools help. And uh we finally, I

00:17:47.819 - 00:18:07.239

can't remember. This is the first time I've really had these huge blank spots. It finally came to a situation where he agreed and you'll have to have somebody else in that group because I just cannot remember all the things that happened where he finally agreed that

00:18:07.250 - 00:18:26.920

yes, indeed, he would meet with the Masterson. Uh Yeah, there while we were talking to him in general terms before that decision was made about rice and about all sorts of things about his situation and what should be done about the whole situation. He made the

00:18:26.930 - 00:18:45.380

comment about the committee, the Bronson committee that he knew how the votes were gonna go on that committee. Now that I think of it when I thought of it, then of course, I knew too. If anything can go I thought would split such that if the

00:18:45.390 - 00:19:00.359

three students were allowed to vote, one student would make the difference. So one of the faculty votes were set and the three student votes, you know, if it was two in one or two in one, the other way that would make a difference. He said, he

00:19:00.369 - 00:19:14.680

said he knew how the faculty votes would go and he was aware that it was the student votes that would make the difference. We all looked at each other. Oh, ok. So there were the three students, there was George Forestall and Greg and me in this

00:19:14.689 - 00:19:31.270

conversation hearing this. Now, George is a very mild mannered man and he's older than the rest of us. And um, I think Doctor Masterson didn't think he knew us very well. I don't think he was aware that he'd been an undergraduate at RI and that we've

00:19:31.280 - 00:19:46.599

known him for years. Ay and George's law is a right and the impression was given and I even received it slightly. I mean, I had a little nervousness about it and Doctor Masterson certainly accepted it that George would vote for Doctor Masterson. You could see this

00:19:46.609 - 00:20:02.400

click in his head. I said, oh, I'm acting it, excuse me. And then during the course of the conversation about r I was too nice to him. I think at one stage of the game, we were talking about the problems with the colleges, the college system

00:20:03.180 - 00:20:16.099

and I agreed with some things he had to say, which I did, I did agree with him and you could just kind of see it to click. There's the other vote. And it was immediately thereafter that he said, well, he would go to the Broad Committee

00:20:16.109 - 00:20:32.969

after all. And I, I remember writing a note to, oh Mike Berman, who was sitting next to me saying, ho ho he thinks I'm gonna vote for him. and like he inquired if I was on this little piece of paper we kept passing on me down

00:20:33.400 - 00:20:48.969

for and I said no, of course, that wouldn't. He said, ho ho and that was it. Ok. Here, just a moment. Now, these uh the committee was list, uh you mean three and three and see how many people were there on the committee there? We uh

00:20:51.260 - 00:21:16.569

uh brat and R, right? So that's three and three, well, against, against Ronson against. And I think, no, I don't think this now, but I thought at the time that deposit would vote again. And I thought that Mr Cardiel who is master and friend after all,

00:21:16.579 - 00:21:30.729

they're really good friends would vote for him. I'll amend that. I'm not sure if I thought it was gonna be ringer or depos who would vote against him. I had, I was quite positive at the time and now I can't even remember how I was positive,

00:21:32.020 - 00:21:49.000

but it was one or the other and I was sure Chapman would at four. This is how I felt at the time. Cardio. Now that I look back on it, I probably thought Ringer would vote against him and depo, I would vote for him from this

00:21:49.010 - 00:22:03.709

point of view. I have a suspicion even I would have voted for him. But I don't know. You know. But it ain't right. That's how, oh, I had an argument with Doctor Ringer about whether silly sds should be allowed to have its silly regional meeting on

00:22:03.719 - 00:22:17.069

campus. And he thought it shouldn't because they were wicked and I thought they should because it was after all, you know, freedom. And I guess that that altered my view of Doctor Remlinger. But I i it's not a very, it's an emotional change, not a, there's

00:22:17.079 - 00:22:30.890

no real fact behind it, but at the time, I'm sure I was thinking Remlinger would vote against him and I'm sure that's what he was thinking too because that's the impression Ringer had given in the meeting. And so what you can see the situation anyway. So

00:22:30.900 - 00:22:45.959

he agrees. Ok, we're gonna meet with the committee all. Look at each other. Well, you know, have we been taken again? We may have been taken again, but it's better. So we went home at 0 12 1 by then because it's been a long thing thinking

00:22:45.969 - 00:23:00.250

surely that he would make, you know, some decisions and meet with the committee the next day because we assured him indeed the committee could be gotten together by Sunday. And I was thinking, you know, four is the usual time, something like that. And, um, the next

00:23:00.260 - 00:23:19.189

morning, uh, Lord, 9, 10, earlyish for a Sunday morning when you've been out arguing the whole night before the phone rang and it was basin or scaring. I can't remember which one they live together. It doesn't really matter, telling me to come over, please. And also

00:23:19.199 - 00:23:34.780

Barry, because by now things have spread a little bit because Doctor Masterson had called Warren that morning at seven o'clock and informed him that he had changed his mind that he had no interest in meeting with the Broad committee. Such a meeting could do no good.

00:23:34.839 - 00:23:52.349

He was going back to Chattanooga and he left. I had to talk. Yeah, he called it porn. And, um, we have since discovered that his wife had something to do with it. She was worried about his health because he was really upset last night and we

00:23:52.359 - 00:24:09.300

found that he was taking tranquilizers on Saturday night. I wonder if somebody knew that for a fact. I don't know if we gonna act at all, but that would kind of explain his strange shifts of mood and things. Anyway. So he at Chattanooga and we went

00:24:09.310 - 00:24:29.589

over to Ron's house. Now Barry, this is at the, the house on Richmond where Ron goes. My Warren Garin lived, uh, Barry went over to Doctor Grove's house because as it developed, we found out on the fence that some faculty members were coming to Warren's house.

00:24:29.599 - 00:24:39.859

Also some young faculty people that we knew to try to decide what to do because obviously they had been meeting Saturday. I don't know anything about what went on but I know that they must have seen each other and were calling each other up all night

00:24:39.869 - 00:24:56.479

and stuff. The bar, I went to get group and I went in and when I went in, oh man, it's so embarrassing. I was a little late because I'd washed my hair. Uh I really get to feeling dirty. And I was like, when I got there,

00:24:56.489 - 00:25:09.180

all the students were there and they were in the process of drafting the statement which we issued that morning about how we found masters and unacceptable that statement. It was about half done and somebody brought some doughnuts and order some coffee. And so we all kind

00:25:09.189 - 00:25:21.969

of sat around and drafted the rest of the statement and everybody contributed to it. And I, I really wouldn't be able to tell you who wrote what at this stage it begin unacceptable. As I recall was Warren's word. We discussed whether to put it in or

00:25:21.979 - 00:25:41.280

anything and he said hell yeah, he's unacceptable. And he was, and we also wondered in that statement, it said something like in view of the way he acted with us, something that means that and the faculty opposition to this appointment. We find, yeah, and we had

00:25:41.290 - 00:25:57.920

a discussion about whether to put in that faculty opposition thing, but we decided to do it and we did. And soon thereafter, um, some genuine faculty arrived and they agreed that we should have put it in. Oh, during that discussion, I called up Doctor Bronson from

00:25:57.930 - 00:26:12.680

TFA from Warren's house and told him what we were about to do. What sort of kind of hesitant we told him? Is this a good thing? I asked. He said, yeah, that's a good thing, right? Um, why not? He had a couple of little, you know,

00:26:12.689 - 00:26:30.560

maybe, um, uh, but go ahead and do it. So we did. And, um, then Ellen Mata, Doctor Mata History Department or English Department and Alan Grove, Barry had gone to get off the English Department of Life, you know, and you could tell they were feeling radical

00:26:30.569 - 00:26:47.260

because they all had on sports shirts, you know, uh, they're all three in their thirties anyway. And we can call them by their first names. Met them anyway. And at this stage of the game, we had one typewriter, uh, no stencils, no oxygen, nothing, you know.

00:26:47.270 - 00:27:05.069

So we were typing carbons of the statement. That's my job because I have a girlfriend and, um, yeah, you know, responsible things, right? And, um, I know, II I don't remember, I wasn't around, but I think Warren called the Chronicle because we always call the Chronicle

00:27:05.079 - 00:27:18.819

first because we like to peck with and we don't like the, and you might as well give him a little head. Sorry, that doesn't matter. Of course, on a Sunday, the Chronicle is gonna get, have the later paper on Monday. Anyway. Uh, what I'm about to

00:27:18.829 - 00:27:35.680

suggest, but you said that you needed to leave about 520. We're, as long as we're meetings here, this might be a good place to break off. Anything. Is there anything else happening? Yeah, that's what we did. And we went over to school after, well, after stopping

00:27:35.729 - 00:27:55.810

at Bill Williams and buying some take out chicken, we went over to the student Association office and hung around for a bit talking about what we'd done and made preparations for another meeting at four o'clock which was to be with us deciding what to do. And

00:27:55.859 - 00:28:08.930

Doctor Adams was to come to it, John A S Adams of the geology department chairman who is a fine man and certainly not one that we would expect as a young radical ally was to come to us and let us know what was going on with

00:28:08.939 - 00:28:27.739

the faculty. Fine, don't we start again? Uh get together next time. Uh we might uh did you attend that SCU I went over to it with Warren. They invited Warren and, yeah. Right. They, they called the meeting and it turned it into an open meeting, of

00:28:27.750 - 00:28:40.219

course, and they invited Warren and some student association people to come and let them know what was going on with the Student Association, what we planned to do. And so I went over with Warren and he did all the talking I have but I did watch

00:28:40.229 - 00:28:57.530

it, you know, I kind of report what was going on. Yeah, that was her last flash of Lord. I had a meeting. Ok. Well, I totally appreciate you coming in and uh you've been very patient. Uh Mr Cat. Uh wait, we'll be talking to you. Uh

00:28:57.540 - 00:29:12.030

Do you wanna be here about 2 30 40 minutes? All of the, he'll have the aesthetic view of these things and when shall we see each other again? I can't in the afternoon at this time, stay late or any night, but tonight we're gonna have to

00:29:12.040 - 00:29:30.969

my parents. Well, um uh I'll be here uh tomorrow afternoon. Uh you know, we actually we at, at this time of the day we can make it to. Yeah. Well, I quit at 430 when I see you tomorrow at 430. Ok. Ok. Then you will get

00:29:30.979 - 00:29:55.650

both in one day. Mhm. So this is uh 01 and two uh return to Mrs Barry Catherine who's husband uh this boat, the dial setting is now 559, that is July 30 1969. Well, let's see, Barry the last time we uh when we left off yesterday

00:29:55.660 - 00:30:14.550

afternoon, um we were talking about the uh the Sunday meeting over at uh Warren's house. And if you got into it somewhat. But, um, yeah, if you can just sort of summarize your, uh, your impressions of that meeting. And the, so it seemed to me that

00:30:15.280 - 00:30:28.349

and a weekend just filled with turning points and all that kind of thing. And that was another one that, that Sunday meeting in the morning every morning. So we were all being kind of casual and even good, um, because it was then that we, you know,

00:30:28.359 - 00:30:43.280

by issuing that statement that said Zene is unacceptable, we kind of, you know how words can solidify your feelings once you've said that you believe something, it becomes more and more true that you believe it. And, and I think after that, we believed it more and

00:30:43.290 - 00:30:59.670

more and we're more convinced, the only real solution to the problem was for Master and to leave. Um, we were still saying at the time, things like, well, if he has the good sense to come back and meet with the committee for him to offer, you

00:30:59.680 - 00:31:17.579

know, to suspend his acceptance until then, well, maybe then he would be acceptable. But we didn't really believe that. At least I didn't, yeah, I didn't believe that even if he came back. Uh I think I was through with Masterson by that point. Um, that, that

00:31:17.589 - 00:31:32.060

was pretty obvious too, after we'd been at once, we went to the Ski Association office in the afternoon. They're both kind of hanging around the K owl and the radio people, we're upstairs getting little copies of our statement and dashing them down into the transmission room

00:31:32.750 - 00:31:52.130

and people were just chatting more or less um, in those conversations and there are lots of people in and out of the S A office, lots of different students, lots of faculty, younger faculties I'll call. Um, we seem to be kind of general that by then

00:31:53.439 - 00:32:11.170

our problem was how to get them in to gracefully pull out of the situation. Probably we weren't hurt him. We weren't vindictive about things. I only met him that one incredibly long afternoon and night. I really wanted him to go away because he was hurting school.

00:32:13.430 - 00:32:36.300

Uh the afternoon. Right? I don't know, 23, something like that. We had a meeting of those of us who had met with Masterson. We reached the point where we thought we had to have a meeting every four hours and got ontological insecurity. Right. So we had

00:32:36.310 - 00:32:56.810

this meeting, we try to discuss what to do and Warren was kind of close mouthed her car. I'm probably a little annoyed about it too because I about what he intended to do. And all he said was that there was a meeting of some important faculty

00:32:56.819 - 00:33:17.390

people just to say people with tenure and um Dean Gordon, Chief Executive Officer Gordon that a little later that afternoon and we start referring to it as the blue chip meeting. Um I called them, newspaper, people came and took a little picture of it and the

00:33:17.400 - 00:33:34.729

television people came and Warren read our statement and that was all very nice. We didn't get much accomplished. And until Doctor Adams, the geology department, we were meeting the geology building anyway, wandered into our room to tell us what was going on among his cronies. And

00:33:34.739 - 00:33:50.619

I think you would have to count among his cronies. All these people that we're referring to the blue chip faculty doctor, I is very expected. And as I found out later, influential man and he told us how he was kind of pleased with the way things

00:33:50.630 - 00:34:08.610

were being handled and not to worry too much that the faculty was behind it. We were under the impression we were behind the faculty. Um and that things look pretty cheerful to him. And I remember him saying, and that he personally had a lot of political

00:34:08.620 - 00:34:24.678

debt that had accrued over the year years and he was kind of calling in his lungs and asking for help. I all over. I had a great deal of faith in him. I mean, after all, there is famous geologists, good buddies with rich and famous people

00:34:24.688 - 00:34:44.030

in Houston. And I thought indeed, if he was confident we should be kind. So after that meeting, the STF had invited Warren and the rest of us to come to their meeting that they were holding that afternoon to tell them what the student association was planning

00:34:44.040 - 00:35:07.000

to do or was doing or whatever. So on, Warren and I and Lord Ron, I think, and, uh, the other beard came with it so he hadn't been in the afternoon, went over to Anderson Hall with the SDS was meeting. It's very strange. They're mean this

00:35:07.010 - 00:35:25.500

large room that the architects use for drawing things in. And when we came in, Doctor De Bremer jean-claude de Bremer Ology Department, who was kind of our, you know, MADD Belgian on campus anyway, um made quite a fuss and I didn't understand it right first about

00:35:25.510 - 00:35:39.379

our coming to the meeting and made a lot of loud statements about how I thought this was a closed meeting. And Adrian who was kind of the tissue head of the SDS kind of hushed him down and said, oh, be quiet, you thought it didn't affect,

00:35:39.389 - 00:35:51.770

which is what a lot of us end up saying to Doctor Browner. And as it turns out there had been some difficulty and I don't understand what it was. I have to find out from them about what the meeting was for, who was to come. And

00:35:51.780 - 00:36:13.489

I remember we gotten his feelings hurt essentially is how I gathered situation. But indeed, um Adrian and Carolyn Kendrick and Penny Johnson, who were, I always thought that the strongest people in the S CS A that made the most decisions. Um He welcomed us and asked

00:36:13.500 - 00:36:28.570

Warren to tell what was going on so he did and Warren was very humorous and very charming. He can be very charming and read our statement. And later on they issued a statement which supported ours, which is kind of interesting because their statement supporting ours was

00:36:28.580 - 00:36:47.600

almost identically worded to the joint statement. I mean, uh issued by the presidents of the young Democrats and the Republicans on campus. I don't get strum there. All they like the statement and they liked hearing that Warren was going to meet with faculty, legal and decide

00:36:47.610 - 00:37:00.050

what everybody was going to do together because there seemed to be a little fear of getting divided. Uh And then he told a nice little joke about it. Everything was really all right because he called his mother and she was still speaking to him. But where

00:37:00.060 - 00:37:20.600

things got sticky was where Adrian and some of the people in the audience raise the eternal SDS question about how can we use this issue to show people that it is tied to larger issues like social structure in America, decision making process, non freedom in the

00:37:20.610 - 00:37:37.370

military, industrial complex and the war in Vietnam. Well, I said the time sort of privately and just some people who are standing around that were my friends but who are also in the F DS. Um that it seems, and it still seems very stupid to me

00:37:37.379 - 00:37:52.840

when we have a perfectly clear cut issue, due process was violated. And the man is a fool it. It's silly to cloud the issue with kind of cosmic questions that we all acknowledge are important questions. But nine times out of 10, I agree with their analysis

00:37:53.909 - 00:38:06.870

the question, but I am that most despised objects are white liberal and I believe in kind of pragmatic politics and you win this battle and then you go to the next one and you don't lose this one because you wanna talk about all of the issues.

00:38:06.879 - 00:38:19.449

Well, that's where we basically disagreed and there was an argument about it in the meeting. And as I recall, Warren said something like, well, you know, you can present it to the students and get them talking about it in any way you can in as broad

00:38:19.510 - 00:38:35.929

a way as you possibly can. It's good. It's education for sex, let them think as much as they can and we parted friends. It was some very comforting meeting. I was cheered up that they weren't gonna cause any trouble in the sense that they weren't gonna

00:38:36.179 - 00:39:00.540

argue for some other approach and, uh, things. All right. She's inaccessible too. They're in Yellowstone National Park, I think. But she and, um, Adrian will both be at the, at Suny, at Buffalo State University of New York at Buffalo next year in the English Department. Hm.

00:39:00.639 - 00:39:28.189

One could see what we find them there and they've all gone camping for the summer. The last I heard she lives in Quincy, Illinois and they wandered through there on their way up to Buffalo. Um, that evening. I'm trying to recall Sunday night. Mm. Of course,

00:39:28.959 - 00:39:46.159

keep it at me. Right. I have Warren's idea too. Of course, to keep people talking and get ideas from everybody. And so they call these names in the colleges and someone surely can explain what the colleges are, um, to be held at the same time with

00:39:46.169 - 00:39:59.540

different faculty members and people kind of going from college to college and speaking at different colleges and the faculty associates of each college were to come and each college had a telecom committee which they had anyway to call up people about elections and stuff, which really

00:39:59.550 - 00:40:16.879

worked this time. And they called every off campus member, which must be half the students. I don't know the percentages and tell them to come too. And they did, it was just remarkable. I know I went in the S A office and someone was to stay

00:40:16.889 - 00:40:31.110

there and answer the telephone. So I did for a while. And then, um, for some reason, I can't remember when I did the Brown meeting, um, my own college with Jones and I never did get there that night because I just, I didn't see that. I

00:40:31.120 - 00:40:43.159

had anything original to say. Doctor W mastered the college and a diets and Anne Jones and you were perfectly capable of presenting all the facts in the case. And Jones is lucky enough to have some really good associates who were involved in the same time that

00:40:43.169 - 00:40:58.469

Davidson was there, Alan Mati. So, so I didn't worry too much about him, Jones. But frankly, I was a little concerned about Brown because there shouldn't be any difference in the women's colleges at Writes. But there is, I mean, people are assigned arbitrarily they flip coins,

00:40:58.800 - 00:41:18.790

but there's a very different, great difference in the, um, atmospheres of the two colleges. Brown is what the extreme you could say is that it's anti intellectual and little ra ra, I mean, by other standards, it's not, but by right standards, it is a little and

00:41:18.800 - 00:41:38.189

um later developments in the Freeman case later in the year and everything else kind of bore that out that the administration at Brown and the master of Brown was a nice man but very hesitant girl who was over there. Um What's your name uh with the

00:41:38.709 - 00:41:57.459

right here? Um She's my psychology class. Oh my Lord, I'll think of it. It'll come to me. Yeah, somewhere and she was about the quietest in any of our meetings. She was a very quiet, mild mannered girl and she's like doctor Rogers and that, that they're

00:41:57.469 - 00:42:14.459

hesitant and don't want to commit themselves and ordinarily that's fine, you know, but there are occasions when you really have to commit yourself. And at Brown there was a, when I got there, there were a lot of people, oh, by that time this is important I'm

00:42:14.469 - 00:42:31.090

sorry, the blue chip committee and Lauren had met and they had decided on the opinion poll, um, ballots have been printed sample ballots for the election on Monday and I'm sure you have a copy thereof and they were discussing it in the college meetings and just

00:42:31.100 - 00:42:49.889

kind of the situation. I mean, Brown, there was a vast movement, it was widespread and half the girls in the commons that evening were in favor of it when I came in, who wanted to abstain on the second question on the ballot, which read at that

00:42:49.899 - 00:43:06.560

time on Sunday night. Um, I do not approve of the choice of the board of trustees. The first thing was I do not approve of the method or I do or do not. And they thought they kept saying things like, well, we've never met him and

00:43:06.570 - 00:43:22.669

who are we to judge him in? You know, that it is much more important than we are. And I'm still being sarcastic because I'm still mad after all these months at these little weasley girls, women, ah, bah. Um, and they all wanted to abstain and Doctor

00:43:22.679 - 00:43:35.530

Rogers was encouraging them. I, I understand some people who were there. I came in towards the end of this thing. Mary Kay was her name, Mary Kay. Daniel and Mary Kay has no idea. I can say there's quite definitely no idea how to run a meeting

00:43:35.540 - 00:43:48.780

and get something out of it that she wants and she was standing weekly up in the fat, a little podium saying, well, oh, what would we like to talk about now? And it, it was just ghastly. I've never seen anything like it. And the few girls

00:43:48.790 - 00:44:03.540

in brown who are, who were committed in are ordinarily a little stronger than your run of male brown girl were so mad. They were walking around in the back of the commons and out in the lobby just furious. They were so mad and, and calling their,

00:44:03.550 - 00:44:24.110

their brethren truly unpleasant names and uh making really vulgar analogies about what these girls were doing essentially and letting the world do to them. And I got mad too. And I said, here comes my famous *** speech. Yes, sir. Be Kaplan 2nd, 2nd ex exercise in

00:44:24.120 - 00:44:40.040

rabble rousing. Now that Mary Kay asked me if I wanted to say anything. Well, hell yes, I wanted to say something. And so I'm afraid I really lost my temper. And the first thing I did, I remember it, you know how when you're really mad, it

00:44:40.050 - 00:44:54.510

burns itself in your memory. First thing I did was explain to them what a *** was, a *** is somebody who says, yes, sir. No, sir. I don't know, sir, whatever you say, sir, I don't know enough to decide, sir. I'm too stupid, sir. You're smarter

00:44:54.520 - 00:45:08.260

than I am, sir. I'm just a little girl, sir. Explain it in graphic detail. There, go and tell them that they were being ***, that they were fools to convince themselves that they were too weak and too stupid to make any kind of decision about what

00:45:08.270 - 00:45:23.659

was going on in their lives. And at this 0.1 could, you know, lapse into sts rhetoric about, you know, making the decisions that affect one's life. But it was really true. They were just lying back and letting just the whole world. And so I hollered at

00:45:23.669 - 00:45:34.760

them for a while and at the end, it was kind of gratifying that there was half of them were shocked and I'm still not welcome in Brown Brown College and my friends, you know, who turned out to be my friends who were on my side were

00:45:34.770 - 00:45:46.409

cheering. That was nice. And I felt really good and, you know, I was through with this, this speech, it was just, you know, I tell them something about how either they, we had made this statement, either they had some faith in it, you know, it was

00:45:46.469 - 00:46:00.360

found unacceptable, had some trust in their fellow students in our judgment or anything or else it didn't, you know, and it was that simple and for God's sake. So I collapsed in the wing and Doctor Grove got up and harangued them for a while. He had

00:46:00.370 - 00:46:11.290

come dashing into, we were all kind of, they were sending in the troops through all these phone calls to the other colleges, get a firebrand down here. Brown's weakening. They sent all these people down and they just yell and scream at these girls until they finally

00:46:11.300 - 00:46:23.280

got their best bones back. It was like, I'm interesting to watch the transformation after about an hour being browbeaten with the idea that you're, you're just weak, little stupid girls and either you, you're gonna be like that all your life or you're gonna do something right

00:46:23.290 - 00:46:42.909

now. Something I found out later, secretive sources that the Brown College ballot box in the uh poll the next day was certainly comparable to all the others on campus that works. And after that, well, I was tired was still a little worked up. He went back

00:46:42.919 - 00:46:54.310

to the Student Association office and of course, the poll was gonna be the next day and we had a lot of forms and everything. And at this stage, my, you know, whole feminine talents took over and I was typing stents and typing ballots and when I'm

00:46:54.320 - 00:47:09.070

making signs, that was an early night, I stayed up really late and somebody went out and got doughnuts and made a big signs for the poll. And we assigned poll sitters for the colleges and the R MC and made all the arrangements. That was the result

00:47:09.080 - 00:47:24.379

of the gray because the one valid point that they did have was that what it should say was given the present situation I disapprove of the choice because that's what we had said that since he wasn't we weren't consulted since he wasn't reacting well to the

00:47:24.389 - 00:47:35.379

situation. Then we disapprove of the choice. And I thought it was very wise and Warren by fiat changed the wording of the ballot. I don't even know how it happened. I threw away a lot of roll ballots in front of you. And I really think that

00:47:35.389 - 00:47:50.760

was wise and it was worth all the effort of the Brown being to get that change because it's, it's much more accurate. Right. Ok. Monday morning, I'm gonna put my suit back on again because it was today, we're gonna have the voting. And, uh, so I

00:47:50.770 - 00:48:01.159

recall I didn't have any classes that morning or if I do, I didn't go because Barry and I were taking care of sitting poles and we were kind of huddled in the R MC that didn't there. And ko of course, had been on the air now,

00:48:01.169 - 00:48:20.149

24 hours a day for three days and constant bulletins and constant little news things and urging people to vote and the vet I, I set posts, um, I call around 9 to 12 or something in the student center where most of the off campus people would

00:48:20.159 - 00:48:35.169

come to vote. The on campus people would of course vote in their colleges when they got up in the morning and we open polls at 830 and I understand it. People went to class a lot and I hear there all classes were held certainly and a

00:48:35.179 - 00:48:49.280

lot of people, some people went to class, they hadn't been to class in months because, um, and most of them, except for a few professors who just wouldn't consider it, they discussed the issue and I had the discussion, I did go to a class that morning.

00:48:49.290 - 00:49:05.580

I had Doctor Wan's psychology class, personality theory. Right. Well, Doctor Wan, of course, wasn't much interested in, in personality theory that morning and neither were we. I have a nine o'clock class. Yeah. And, um, we fought it out and everybody was, you know, in agreement. And

00:49:05.590 - 00:49:17.739

in fact, Mary Kay Daniel was in that class and I was a little embarrassed because she had come so near blowing the whole thing at her college and of course, it was her responsibility because the presidents of the colleges ran the meetings and she had done

00:49:17.750 - 00:49:31.250

very, very badly, but she's very nice, you know, and it wasn't that, it wasn't as awkward as I fear when I went in anyway. Then I went into that pot and the turnout was fantastic. I've never seen anything like it. There were people just lined up

00:49:31.260 - 00:49:49.780

to vote and they were jubilant and excited. And that was a really good day. Some of the things I heard, let me think, um, I know a young man who voted in the minority, the vast minority by voting that he disapproved of the method. But, um,

00:49:49.790 - 00:50:04.560

approved to Doctor Masterson. I mean, I was punching out and of course it was secret, but he made a big deal that's showing me how he voted. And I said, what a strange thing to do. He said, well, I like him and there were people around

00:50:04.570 - 00:50:14.699

and then, you know, he got really defensive about it and made this big deal about how he had voted for Doctor Masterson. He didn't care if it was politics or anything. He always thought he was a nice man. He'd let him pass his course. And people

00:50:14.709 - 00:50:34.520

were so disapproving this boy is not. He's a cat, his character anyway. And, uh, oh, yeah, Bob Scully. Robert Scully. No, I'm, I feel sure you wouldn't if he's just kind of a drama type who's been here for years. And I've always found this an unfortunate

00:50:34.530 - 00:50:48.080

boy anyway. And he just was quite nasty about how well he was gonna vote for Doctor Masterson because Doctor Masterson had let him pass his course and I'm sure he did let him pass it. And, um, the reaction just in the kind of the lobby of

00:50:48.090 - 00:51:02.179

the student center, there were dozens and dozens and dozens of people milling around. You know, everybody was tired and everything, um, was really negative, that attitude and they'd take corners and try to lecture him, but of course he'd already voted and there we were. So, I

00:51:02.189 - 00:51:18.010

guess I saw one of them maybe, you know, how many votes for doctor not. And, uh, one other thing happened, we had forgotten to make faculty were voting in their departments, graduate students were voting in their departments. The graduate students had a meeting that morning the

00:51:18.020 - 00:51:29.860

first time in the whole history of the university that all the graduate students met together and they all went. So I went over there during a break in PO city and they were in the lecture lounge in the library which is a large room you've got

00:51:29.870 - 00:51:46.850

up there and it was packed and they were standing all around and George Forestall and Margo Downy and Carol and her, she's calling about Carolyn Porter again by the way and they were divorced and she's Carolyn Porter. So she'll show up with those things. Um Were,

00:51:46.939 - 00:52:00.300

it was a beautiful meeting. There were lots of faculty people there and the graduate students poured out of about 11 or 12 and all went and voted. There's millions of them. I've never, and of course, out of that developed the graduate Student Association, which is another

00:52:00.310 - 00:52:15.330

new thing that had never even been suggested. It was suggested that day at the meeting, they voted on it, passed the resolution, organized it and they've got officers and dues already. So it must be a real organization if they pay dues. Um But we hadn't made

00:52:15.340 - 00:52:27.969

any arrangements. This is so embarrassing for the postdoctoral fellows. There are approximately 10 on campus last year as nearly as anybody can tell. No one even keeps a record of them. They're, you know, in limbo between faculty and staff and student, nobody knows what they are.

00:52:27.979 - 00:52:40.449

And one poer boy's name is Mike. Something. I don't know his name. Math Science. Just wanted to vote so much, but he already had his phd. It was supposed to dock and he couldn't vote. And the other Barry went through a lot of effort trying to

00:52:40.459 - 00:52:55.659

find a way for him to vote and there was no way we felt really bad. Ok. So that afternoon after the polls closed at one, does that sound right? I think that's right. You know, they all polls always close at one at, right. There's time to

00:52:55.669 - 00:53:12.070

count the it and of course it was to be a great secret. And, um, I did little things in the essay office. I don't even remember nothing. Oh, yeah, I do remember. But I'll tell you later. Um, the other Berry. Let's see if I can remember.

00:53:12.149 - 00:53:38.449

He, he certainly told you he had a debate that very Grobe. Does Grobe sound right? A couple of faculty members, Gruber. Right. Good old Doctor Group. And, um, I think you're less, I'm sure. Uh, yeah, I really can't remember if that was in the river. Re

00:53:40.169 - 00:53:56.969

well, anyway, they probably, yeah, anyway, they closeted themselves in the honor council office. It was kind of appropriate, I thought, and nobody could go in and nobody could come out and just realized how they, them all afternoon to count the beds. Yeah. Very, uh, uh, do

00:53:56.979 - 00:54:11.229

you remember hearing at any time about how, or why the decision was made for graduate students to vote in their departments and, uh, faculty to vote in the department as opposed to at the polls. Well, the polls were student association polls and that, and one is

00:54:11.239 - 00:54:25.199

a member of the Student Association by virtue of paying for blanket tax, which all undergraduates must do, but graduate students don't do. And so it would have been illegal under our constitution for them to vote in our election. And we wanted to keep it so clean.

00:54:26.340 - 00:54:43.260

They did vote in the department. In fact, now I know a story about a department that you might get from somebody else, but all I heard about it was the history department. There was some difficulty with the ballots. I understand just vaguely that each department ran

00:54:43.270 - 00:55:01.139

off its own faculty ball from a one copy, you know, and I understand that that the question, the second question was reversed on the history Department ballot and they had their faculty meeting to cast their vote, discuss and cast their votes. And in some departments, I

00:55:01.149 - 00:55:15.419

understand they are for hours and talks and everything and those two departments, absolute science and everybody came in. It was a very awkward department to be in at that time. And um Doctor Gruber, I believe, noted that it was reversed and they ran off correct copies.

00:55:16.449 - 00:55:29.550

I heard it mean that a Nova would become as a yes. No, it is. Mhm. Yeah. I, I'm not a really devious person, but that sounds funny to me. That really sounds funny. And I'd, I'd love to hear the real story. I really would. Can I,

00:55:29.560 - 00:55:45.800

you to hear who the last minute response was? One would have seen the chairman of the secretary. We remember now who is now a secretary is acting president. I don't know. I mean, it, it could have been, it was the biggest accident in the world, but

00:55:45.810 - 00:55:58.580

everybody made a big deal about it. And at that time, rumors were flying all around the campus that Doctor Vanderford was resi resigning from the university. Anyway, it turned out not to be true at all. I, I really think that was a manufactured rumor because he,

00:55:58.590 - 00:56:11.949

of course, was a great friend of Doctor Masterson. Right. The best got count. And during that time, we had a great deal of trouble with the media as they say in the trade. And um someone had heard that it, some of the school that had trouble.

00:56:13.560 - 00:56:27.979

What we had been trying to do is telling the kids that they heard a mistake on television and radio. Don't call the station. We kept having KL say that don't call the sta station, call the Student Association office. Report it and one person authorized from the

00:56:27.989 - 00:56:40.149

S A office will call the station once and correct their error and they seem to be, you want to keep them on your side. And one of the ways to alienate them is to have 1000 kids calling up and screening and they work pretty well because

00:56:40.159 - 00:56:51.469

we all, there was always somebody in the office and we got to know some of the news directors at the station and they expected our calls and it worked out pretty well, but we couldn't count on there being somebody there. And also it's nice to involve

00:56:51.479 - 00:57:05.810

more people. That was one of our main goals was finding enough jobs for all these volunteers to do because every kid on the campus wanted to do something. And someone had suggested that at another school they'd gotten the faculty w to run the media watch. And

00:57:05.820 - 00:57:17.770

so, um, since I was a girl that was my job was to set up a media watch and I, I called around to some faculty w and got, oh, Mrs Reed organized it for me. Clar Reed's wife and she got about 10 of them. We got

00:57:17.780 - 00:57:31.290

there, uh, names and phone numbers and some hours that, you know, some could be called at night and some during the day and we mimeographed them and had them. Have some of our little people who were running around campus, packed them up in all the colleges,

00:57:31.300 - 00:57:44.800

read them over the station, gave these ladies numbers and they would have called them if they found any mistakes and they were gonna report it to the station. It also was better because they were older and, you know, stations might trust them more and they were

00:57:44.810 - 00:57:56.270

really excited to do it, you know, because they, mostly what they've been doing is making sandwiches. All of them were great sandwich makers all during the crisis. You know, feeding their men when they came home. It was kind of nice. I thought it was turned out

00:57:56.280 - 00:58:12.209

to be very useless because by the next afternoon, of course, it was all gone away. But that's what I did that afternoon. Um, so then the votes were counted and of course, they didn't reveal the count but they were transmitted. I understand by telephone. I don't

00:58:12.219 - 00:58:29.139

know. You'll have to ask Warren. Yeah. Somebody told the board and I think they called Masterson and, uh, chance look at the news that evening of the results and everybody in the world wanted to know the results we wouldn't tell them. And I thought that I

00:58:29.149 - 00:58:45.469

was annoyed because I'd caught hints that they were very good, you know, over 90% against them in both cases. Well, over 90% on that first question. And, um, he kind of wanted to tell people to show them, you know, and I'm not very honorable and I

00:58:45.479 - 00:59:00.409

wanted to blurt it all out, you know, blurt, blurred, but wiser heads prevailed. No, we didn't burn it. Kind of a good thing. Was it, uh, did anyone suggest that, uh, it, it would be, uh, uh, a nice little ace in the, in the hole to

00:59:00.419 - 00:59:14.629

be able to reveal it later if, uh, like, I don't know if that was, I can't remember anybody saying that the real issue with him was whether or not we wanted to humiliate him that much and we decided that if he'd resign without being humiliated that

00:59:14.639 - 00:59:28.270

much. Well, fine, you know, there's been hurting the man any more than we already have because we've made a fool of him before. And I, I don't know if anyone had thought of using it later. Of course, you know, it crossed, I suppose it crossed my

00:59:28.280 - 00:59:47.909

mind but I can't remember about it now, but it was so overwhelming. We certainly thought there'd be some results. I'll never know where he got those. He knew everything he called every shop before it happened. That was just a really great reporter, really great. And he

00:59:47.919 - 01:00:07.360

really understood what was going on and somewhere probably in the dead of night, somebody told him and, um, I'll never know, but there were a number of people who knew by the end of the thing pretty accurate. Yeah, they were a little under, as I recall.

01:00:07.370 - 01:00:21.679

I, I don't really remember because I just saw the real figure Swan Spirit shoot him. We'll be se and through it away our tradition of telling each other everything. Ok. So it's the next morning and I, huh, what happened that night? I call not much and

01:00:21.689 - 01:00:36.550

it was kind of disappointing. There wasn't anything to do but wait, I think it was one of the open tomorrow. Oh, yes. Oh, I, I know. We didn't go that night. We didn't go later in the week until after his resignation. But it's so appropriate that

01:00:36.560 - 01:00:49.500

where I saw it would be that week in Sandy Haven, the director had worked, it was gonna be the best, perform, best production ever. And I think it was, and I understand that millions of people went to the opening of Maratha. They would have gone anyway,

01:00:49.510 - 01:01:03.909

of course, but not so many and not so enthusiastic because it was so applicable. I really was. And it was all kind of like that of a feeling of time. And I honestly cannot remember what we did that night. I have a feeling we went home

01:01:03.919 - 01:01:16.199

and I probably washed my hair again and went to bed anyway, the next morning he came back to school again and, oh, I remember, yes, Alan Matti said, was gonna have a silly course on Tuesday and we were really gonna discuss the reading and I thought

01:01:16.209 - 01:01:32.739

it was most crude of him and tell him so, but he said, well, you know, our education goes on and uh I started did some reading for my history course. Isn't that right? Didn't have anything to do with revolution. And uh I came to school and

01:01:32.750 - 01:01:44.979

there was more waiting and waiting for new rumors, you know, and what are we gonna do next? And it was here that we had another meeting. If I would call, we almost certainly had another meeting that morning. Yes. Yes, indeed. It was either the day of

01:01:44.989 - 01:02:00.409

the boating or Tuesday. Let me find out from Mr Evans. The board of the Aluminum Association had a meeting to decide, you know, find out what was going on to decide if they were gonna do anything, that kind of thing. And they met in the uh

01:02:00.760 - 01:02:14.050

conference room next to the I the Association office. The conference room happened to be right next to the student Association office, a small school after all. And um, Mr Evans wandered down to our office sometime during that day and this is all on Monday now that

01:02:14.060 - 01:02:25.870

I think of it and asked me to come down and speak to them and let them know how a student felt about the whole situation. And Mr Evans is my friend anyway. He's nice name. So I went and did and I, they had a little family

01:02:25.919 - 01:02:40.050

that in me happy as hungry. I don't know. I kind of presented my case and they sort of hurried me, which annoyed me because Mr Cardio was coming up to give a faculty view and I got a bad feeling from them. It turns out it wasn't

01:02:40.060 - 01:02:53.620

entirely justified at all. I got all through you know my little emotional bleeding. And um Mr Evans asked if there are any questions from the members of the board. And this one man, I don't know his name, I'll never know his name. Raise his hand and

01:02:53.689 - 01:03:10.010

he said, young lady, there's just one question I wanna ask you. Are you a member of the sds or I was mad. I was really mad. And so I'm afraid I was sarcastic and raised my right hand and said, sir, I'm not now. Nor have I

01:03:10.020 - 01:03:22.449

been a member of the FDA. I thought they remember that having been alive in the fifties and uh all the other members of the board touched him and said, oh, just be quiet. You know, that's silly. And they asked me a couple of intelligent questions and

01:03:22.459 - 01:03:37.689

I went away and the cardiectomy and now I think Mr Salford came up too and um that really made me mad because what it was was that fascist? I mean, I use the word fascist too liberally, but in this case, it's justified that Paul Malloy had

01:03:37.699 - 01:03:51.250

made a statement in the mammograph thresher the daily thresher of that day that came up that morning that said he was sorry. A very, very kine in her little SDS buddy's running the school. A I did not run the school. B I was not in the

01:03:51.260 - 01:04:05.770

SDS C Malloy is a real fascist. He's the one whose solution to the Negro problem is to sterilize them all because, quote, it's the most humane thing to do. He says that in public he's crazy. Quite mad anyways, that's where the guy got the idea. And

01:04:05.780 - 01:04:21.159

he just haunted me ever since there's still people in campus who I'm convinced I was the leading light of the sds. I've never even been to a meeting except for that thing that we all want to leave this floor. But on occasion he kept doing research

01:04:21.489 - 01:04:42.679

on the second floor. Yeah, they're, they're doing their mystery flight in the department. Yeah. Good idea. Uh, another thing that happened that day was the, uh, decision to do the mailing to the alumni. What they wanted to do. This is a little normal this Monday or

01:04:42.689 - 01:04:59.159

Monday night or a Tuesday morning. And I really can't remember. Um, no said I knew whose idea it was, it was just one of those beautiful people up there. They're all just beautiful. He said, I don't know this, do this mail, an information packet to every

01:04:59.169 - 01:05:12.770

alum. There are a lot of al, I got a small Newish school but there's still a lot of them and tell them what's going on. And somebody talked to Mr Giles, he's Director of Admissions. They have alumni interviewers here who had, you know, interview kids that

01:05:12.780 - 01:05:31.689

are far away from Texas and we can't use regular admission, staff, alumni, uh, staff people to interview them. And so he wrote a memorandum to all his alumni interviewers, which is to say all alums because they're all potential interviewers uh saying that the they're truly copy

01:05:31.699 - 01:05:48.199

around um that they've probably heard a lot of funny things about rice, including, you know, that headline my students riot. And he decided to tell them that it certainly wasn't true that anything truly ugly was happening and the students were reporting themselves well and enclosed are,

01:05:48.530 - 01:06:06.560

you know, several bits of information that may help you to uh explain the situation more clearly to your friends. This is the student security. This is really a blind in order to get it to all alumni and um included in it. Well, we didn't think about

01:06:06.570 - 01:06:22.739

that. We work out later. Um and we put in a thresher and a synopsis of what had happened in a letter from Warren. He dictated yet another letter. It was a pretty nice packet and we started stuffing. Some girls stayed up all night, about six of

01:06:22.750 - 01:06:38.719

them and addressed envelopes to alumni and board members and everything and they dressed about uh 800 envelopes and got him stuffed. They ran out of envelopes on Tuesday morning. We were all waiting around to see what would happen. Anyway, Father John John Wal, yeah, this pay

01:06:39.040 - 01:06:55.179

chaplain I think of chain and uh Phil Stephen, who's the Lutheran saying on campus who had gotten the joint Christian Ministry people to issue that statement supporting us. Anyway, we're up there asking is there anything we can do. And of course, we've run out of brown

01:06:55.189 - 01:07:13.530

paper envelopes by those big ones. And we'd realized kind of the cost, you have to say cost because a fortune. And, uh, so that afternoon, Stepan and roll were just beginning. This is Tuesday afternoon, they were just beginning to call every friend they had in every

01:07:13.540 - 01:07:26.419

church in Houston who would be sympathetic to get them to donate a couple 100 en groups each. And they just begun that when the news the resignation came through. No, it was really nice. I don't know what we would have done about the postage guys. I

01:07:26.600 - 01:07:41.949

still can't think of it. Well, it eventually happened to those 800 stuffed envelopes is about two weeks ago, Bennett Clark, the uh new Senior Care V President Bar and Bennett and Lady and I walked out all the old address, address them to this year's freshman enclosed

01:07:41.959 - 01:07:58.520

a new covering letter removing Mr Johns covering letter. Explain to the freshman that uh I thought you had heard about this. The ketamine. Yes, that has money to pay for it. Um Another thing about money after the resignation, there was a little movement among some sympathetic

01:07:58.530 - 01:08:13.729

alumni and faculty lines and things to gather up some money for the student Association gets out debt and they did do that. I don't know what happened about it, how much or anything, but I, I know it happened. Well, it all right. It was on Tuesday

01:08:15.159 - 01:08:30.240

and we were doing things like, you know, worrying about the letters and everything and I went to a class. Was it four or five? I've heard, I've heard both figures. I think it's five. Yeah, at five o'clock we would have a meeting of the student group

01:08:30.250 - 01:08:45.990

that had been meeting all along in the faculty group. Dean Gordon's group and what it was was the department chairman, some deans and some important people on campus who got in on the other category. And we were to meet at five to decide what to do

01:08:46.000 - 01:09:03.580

and be before that meeting. Warren told me an idea. He'd had, we had a meeting with the students before which was um if nothing happened and people were really screaming for a strike by then some people. Oh, ok. Let's strike. Let's prove to the board that

01:09:04.180 - 01:09:20.398

you can't destroy university by closing down the buildings. The buildings don't have anything to do with the university. It's the people and the learning to war it. What, what we'll do is the first day of the strike. Say the day after tomorrow, we'll take that long

01:09:20.418 - 01:09:34.418

to arrange it. We will donate the right student body to the city of Houston to do odd jobs, which is, you know, like clean out all of Herman Park, go down to Galveston and clean the beaches with rakes, paint things, you know, have all kinds of

01:09:34.429 - 01:09:51.529

really worthy activities that nobody could criticize. And after that day after we'd all been out of school for a day, I would get him another day to arrange things. Hold every class, but hold every class off campus could easily be done. We, we couldn't have more

01:09:51.540 - 01:10:07.600

than six courses that have more than 100 people. We really couldn't. Yeah. Most courses in the university can meet in an apartment 25 is a reasonable size for your average class here because it was a small school and it could have been done. And I thought

01:10:07.609 - 01:10:20.560

it was brilliant because of course, that would leave the campus bare bare bones and they think they had a university there, but they wouldn't, the university would be out in the city and maybe somebody would catch on at the university. Didn't have anything to do with

01:10:20.569 - 01:10:33.930

their silly million dollar buildings. I mean, sure the scientists would miss their labs for a few days, but they could get along without them, they could learn something without them. And I really thought that was brilliant. So that was the only coherent plan we had. And

01:10:33.939 - 01:10:51.520

we all agreed it was a beautiful plan. Josh, love it when we were in the S A office that afternoon and it was getting to be time to go to the five o'clock meeting and we were just worrying and fretting and, um, so we were outside

01:10:51.529 - 01:11:03.709

step and we were starting to call people for brown paper input and somebody came tearing up the stairs. We had the radio thing all the time. It turned down so he could talk. And, um, saying he's, he resigned. The rock button ran and turned up the

01:11:03.720 - 01:11:14.540

radio and sure enough he had because they were reading the statement over the over KO and of course, it had been given to K before the other patients got it and they were playing the tape just there and they just kept playing it and we all

01:11:14.549 - 01:11:30.810

hugged each other and cheered and hopped around. It was time to go to the meeting and we ran over to the meeting and that was really strange. Really weird because we were sad. Barry cried, he just cried and cried, just relief and fear. You know, what

01:11:30.819 - 01:11:44.479

have you done? Really? And there was a good long delay before everybody got in and got seated. And of course, we'd all heard that delayed people and there was a great deal of happiness, but at the same time, it was just really a that we pulled

01:11:44.490 - 01:12:03.410

it off and fear about that poor man. What was he gonna do? He is. And he was beautiful. That was really his finest moment was he? And he came in and he said he trust trusted that we had hurt you this last one and then we

01:12:03.419 - 01:12:22.479

allowed it. Now we go ahead. But it sure, I mean, it was, it is usually kind of sad. And, uh, he said that, well, the first thing. He thought the first order of business given the circumstances was to have to tell to um Doctor Master. And

01:12:22.490 - 01:12:48.330

from that, that meeting, thanking him for his fine gesture. And uh, well, somebody got deputized to draft a telegram and a very nice one. And um, then it was alone. Um Doctor Castaneda, I'm pretty sure it was Doctor Castaneda, James Castaneda, his name Spanish appointment got

01:12:48.339 - 01:13:03.370

up and he wanted to make a motion to command the students for behaving so well. And he was hooted down by the other faculty members. And they told me essentially Jim sit down and shut up. You're insulting them. That would suggest that we expected them to

01:13:03.379 - 01:13:25.290

behave any differently if you commend them for behaving. Well, that means that you're surprised. And I just thought that was lovely. Just lovely. And they just said, of course, you know, just sit down and the meeting was really quite short, you know, and, and we all

01:13:25.299 - 01:13:39.890

left and nobody really wanted to talk much. We've been quite jubilant students when we first heard the news. I mean, really jubilant and I kind of the celebration started immediately all over the campus. But, uh, he got fed there at that meeting in Michigan. Anyway, I

01:13:39.899 - 01:13:55.620

went back to the Student Association office and there wasn't anything to do really. And Barry and I were very poor last year, both in school. We had no money, two part time jobs, but we, and not when we, neither one of us could work during the,

01:13:55.689 - 01:14:11.500

the problems because we just really want to work. And so it was costing us a lot of money and we had set aside, we had a little bit of our loan left. Thank you N DEA. Uh we set aside $100 for a revolutionary budget and we

01:14:11.509 - 01:14:23.500

could lose that much. And after that, we really have to start worrying because there's just no way to get to the semester if we lost one minute on the deal. And of course, we had a bit of shorts. So we went out to God, it's and

01:14:23.509 - 01:14:41.140

had an elegant, fantastically expensive dinner and loved every minute. We went home and changed clothes, you know, really good dinner. And uh of course, there were parties at night. I invited to a bunch of them, but we ended up going, we came back to campus after

01:14:41.149 - 01:14:59.330

dinner to Doctor Gruber's house to Hanson House, Master's house and Hanson College. When we got there, Clark Reed was there and Mrs Reed and he had just decided to stay at rice not to leave. He had, he had been planning to leave rice and he had

01:14:59.339 - 01:15:14.759

a fine offer and he just decided to stay because everybody was just very happy. And there are a couple of other couples there who would just uh the Doctor Baker that's in geology. He must be, he's not either the Steven or the Stewart there's another doctor

01:15:14.839 - 01:15:27.770

for Doctor Baker. Done. Yeah, the baby took a gerbil from me. We had baby gerbils at the time and actually gave them away that night. Everybody was so happy. They said sure, we'll take a pair of gerbils. Yeah, it's a little animal. It's terrible. Never have

01:15:28.799 - 01:15:44.759

they multiply. Ah. All right. Um, and it was really nice and then Doctor Grove came and Grove was wonderful. He enjoyed that whole thing more than anyone. He said, I know what let's do. But it's not, yeah, it's really bad to be having a celebration. Right.

01:15:44.870 - 01:15:55.950

The fact, despite the fact that we're all drinking and everything and cheering and like that, we shouldn't be having a celebration. Let's pretend that this is a pre basketball game party. Let's go basketball game. It was a basketball game in the gym and it was right

01:15:55.959 - 01:16:10.220

down the street and there had been some concern about the basketball game, but there might be trouble and I don't understand why anybody was concerned. It seemed very stupid to me, but there was, and I forgot who was, like, I, I've only been to one basketball

01:16:10.229 - 01:16:21.549

game before that whole time. Right. It was kind of me and we went and it had already started and we walked across the thing with group and, you know, in front of the beach to go up to one week, you know, grouper and scrub and everything.

01:16:21.560 - 01:16:34.990

And I played basketball, people waved at you know, bought and Vicky side. So that was kind of, it wasn't a big deal or anything. It was kind of pleasant. I was proud. I sent a pride right on me and that intermission, we stay until what they

01:16:35.000 - 01:16:47.799

don't call it intermission. What do they call it in the middle of a basketball game? The intermission. Yeah. Um somebody read the telegram from the committee to Doctor Masterson. That's kind of five call, but it's all nice. And then we invite some more people to come

01:16:47.810 - 01:17:04.319

to the party, you know, went around the stand and, uh, I went back to the group and we stayed for a good long while. I had a really nice time. Yeah, next day was just institutional except for, you know, the aftermath. It, it's happening now that's

01:17:04.330 - 01:17:21.609

what happened to me. Well, I've been very impressed with that and another test too. Um, maybe you can give us a little insight into how you develop these, uh, these, uh, Tums and exane of speaking. Well, I have the slightest idea if I knew when I

01:17:21.620 - 01:17:34.259

was in high school the second semester of my senior year, I didn't want to work for the silly counselor anymore because she was dumb and I didn't wanna take pe, so I had a friend who was on our really pilly little debate team and he said,

01:17:34.270 - 01:17:44.560

why don't you come out and debate? It's fine. It's easy. I'll teach you one evening and he did, you know, and we were terrible and I went out and debated some that's the, uh, and do a little bit of, of that. What do they call it?

01:17:44.569 - 01:18:00.000

Ex temp and persuasive speaking. I want a contest and everything. That's the only training I've ever had. I've never spoken much in public. I mean, I used to get in arguments in the college a lot and I'm a very irritating person. I mean, I'm really irritating.

01:18:00.009 - 01:18:12.819

I know that boy, you know, a lot of people that just really hate me and somebody said to me during the thing, a girl that I just barely knew from Jones who came up to me and said yes, while you're at g, there are a lot

01:18:12.830 - 01:18:25.560

of people who didn't like you and some of them who really didn't like you. These are the very special sorts. I, I've never been able to bear that, um, came up to me and said, you know, that the bar's all right. I, I could be before

01:18:25.609 - 01:18:38.540

but she's all right. And that I just almost cry then because that made me happy because of course I'm as dependent as anyone else on having people like you. And I feeling that you're popular, I'm 22 years old and I still wanna, you know, I think

01:18:38.549 - 01:18:54.379

I have a lot of friends feeling but I do and, um, I, I don't, I don't know what happened. I was just all wound up in the thing. And I knew enough to be logical when I was telling people things some of the time and to

01:18:54.390 - 01:19:10.020

be emotional, the rest of the time, I think sometimes men have trouble rabble, rousing because they try to be logical. And of course, that's no way to rouse the rabble. II, I just can't, I don't think I could ever do the scan during the semen thing.

01:19:10.029 - 01:19:23.439

I diddled around with a little bit but I was so much at odds over the issues that I couldn't be very public because I hadn't decided in my own mind. Exactly what I thought. Well, that's another thing. If I really knew what I thought after I

01:19:23.450 - 01:19:38.250

met with that man, I was quite sure, you know, I really knew and that helped and then of course, the, the afternoon of the two meetings happened to me this evening, Friday afternoon. No, I don't tell everybody, you know, what had happened to me and the

01:19:38.259 - 01:19:54.569

committee. I was so mad. I mean, I was so mad at those people for not, not paying any attention to it because I thought I was been quite responsible and adult and mature and un radical being on a committee and those bastards, those incredible bastards. Just,

01:19:56.649 - 01:20:18.029

it's real motion. That's all it is. And in the months that had fallen and now of course, things are the most unpleasant here. Um, the board is being so very nasty. I'm sure you've heard all about it, but I've, I've had to learn to be much

01:20:18.040 - 01:20:41.129

more judicious. I still believe in winning one battle at a time being pretty sure you can win before you start fighting. That seems very wise. Pictures are so much my friend and he, uh, yeah. Yeah, that's what happened before, I guess. Ok. Hm. Is that my

01:20:41.140 - 01:21:12.020

friend? Not today? The last. Hi. Oopsy. How are you? Did you find a nice book? The History? And, uh, just a couple more questions, uh, for you, Barry before I let you go. Uh, well, it's quarter of six. Are you, you have another five minutes? I

01:21:12.089 - 01:21:31.490

sure I would be interested in your evaluation of, uh, who the most effective student leaders were. Oh, Warren, Warren. Warren. Warren was beautiful. It was true. He, now he annoyed me sometimes because I was with him all the time. And, um, yeah, Lauren and I both

01:21:31.500 - 01:21:46.240

tend to push, yeah, to, to kind of throw our weight around when we think we've got some weight to throw around and sometimes we throw it at each other and that's kind of awkward and a lot of us were beginning to think on that in that

01:21:46.250 - 01:22:00.410

group. You know, that was always me that Monday afternoon we became predis courage and everything. We were beginning to think that Warren wasn't being completely honest with us that he knew stuff we didn't know and that either we were gonna decide everything together or else we

01:22:00.419 - 01:22:20.959

were running, you know, the little latest, slow down on that. There was almost a show down. It really was, um, down in the base of the student center where the radio station was. I ran into Mike Berman Nancy. Somebody else, I can't remember Ron. Ron, his

01:22:21.000 - 01:22:39.200

friends and we all agreed it was, or that, or maybe Tuesday, Tuesday morning, that's more accurate than Tuesday. Um, but there were things he hadn't said and we were beginning to feel like we were being condescended to a little bit that either we were or were

01:22:39.209 - 01:22:53.689

not as responsible as one and one because he didn't. Yeah, it was Tuesday. It was after the meeting that we had Tuesday morning preparatory to the meeting with the faculties in the, when he revealed his great plan, which we all agree was a great plan. But

01:22:53.700 - 01:23:08.910

he was kind of peculiar. I thought now I can't put it in words because I don't respond to people very logically. But we were all getting just a bit annoyed and we all confessed this to each other and said, well, let's give him a day, see

01:23:08.919 - 01:23:23.660

what happens. And of course, yeah. Well, let me ask you this. Uh, did, did you, uh sense that perhaps he was filling out the? Oh, no, it wasn't that at all. No, because there was an administration to sell out to the only people who signed to

01:23:23.700 - 01:23:38.209

the Board Master Center. Uh I don't much believe in establishments because they're Dean Gordon and John A F Adam fighting with us, you know, and they're as establishment as anybody is. Um, no, I just, it, it wasn't any of, I, I understand what you're getting at

01:23:38.479 - 01:23:58.220

and it wasn't bad at all because I had more faith in brat and atoms. Jack Ward as Chairman English client. Uh, that kind of man at that stage it began and I did and the young radical professors because they didn't have any weight to throw. They

01:23:58.229 - 01:24:13.620

didn't have any political guts to call in and everybody. Yeah, I mean, they were, they're fine man. I love nearly and everything and they work with it. But the others were so much more impressive because they were such fun man. I mean, really fun man. You

01:24:13.629 - 01:24:28.350

know, when you used to be able to read integrity and goodness and everything I would, you know, these black and white things I'd say, yeah, Franz Bronson is a great man, really great man and for him to be on our side and doing everything he could,

01:24:28.359 - 01:24:41.560

I, I would be more likely to trust his judgment that I would grow or, you know, one of the young guys that I know, but I know it's certainly fallible. It wasn't that it was just, we were beginning to feel a little left out, want you

01:24:41.569 - 01:24:50.080

some stuff we didn't know and we wanted to know and we had sworn ourselves to secrecy on things that ought to be secret. And we kind of agreed that we knew what ought to be secret and what didn't and we didn't have to write it down.

01:24:51.069 - 01:25:04.410

I feel like, and it was well knowing. But as it turned out, of course, it was fantastic. I ma I suggested later on in the year when it came to election time that maybe we ought to offer Warren 50,000 a year to be Student Association president

01:25:04.419 - 01:25:12.680

every year. Even. I probably take that. I do have one question that, uh, I, I can throw out to either or both of you if you wanna make me better.