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Okay, so hi, today is Tuesday, June 1, 2021. My name is Emily Ma, and I'm here with Dr. Andrew Lee for the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice. So to start, when and where were you born?

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I was born in the Bronx, New York City, New York. March the 4th 1964. Cool. And I understand that you have two siblings. Are you still close with them today?

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Yes, my brother, Richard, and he's a younger brother. He lives here in Houston. My sister is a doctor in Charleston, West Virginia, where we grew up. And how would you describe the household that you grew up in?

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We are a nuclear family with two working parents. Both my parents are physicians. They met in residency. They emigrated to the United States to do residency.

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And then there's the three of us children. We are a nuclear family. And I would say we are a close family. And do you have some favorite memories of your childhood that you'd like to share?

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So we grew up in Charleston, West Virginia. In Charleston, we knew every Chinese family because there weren't that many. So we would drive around on the weekends to visit the other Chinese families so that we would share food and have potluck and play mahjong.

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So it was our only tie, really, to any kind of culture because there weren't enough people. So you literally had to drive around and find other Asians to interact with. And can I ask like, what were some childhood hobbies that you liked to do?

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So as a child, I would say I was a very outdoorsy kind of child, my mother would let us go outside and in the we lived kind of in a rural area, so you could play in the creek and play with sticks and build a fort and make a dam.

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There were no electronics back then. So you basically had to make your own toys. And we spent a lot of time outdoors and riding bikes and things that probably would be considered dangerous now for children.

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And has that affected your own like parenting philosophy at all? I think we try to force our children to go outside and to come off their devices. We definitely have a "no electronics" rule at dinnertime, which for Chinese people is a very important socializing time, but for all people really.

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But we have a no electronics rule in the house during dinner. And just going back your parents, did they happen to tell you a bit about their own immigration process? And did they share any like challenges that they faced?

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So my parents were both physicians, they came over to do medical residency in the United States, first internship and then residencies in internal medicine. They were recruited to do so because in the 1960s, American needed doctors and so they went and recruited physicians from places like Manila,

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the Philippines, where my parents emigrated. We are Chinese, but we are Filipino-Chinese. It was a lot easier to come from the Philippines because they spoke English and their classes were in English.

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English–English is like a second language in the Philippines. And so it was a lot easier to make the language transition, but they had never visited the United States prior to coming for residency. They also had never seen snow.

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So they lived in a tropical country, and they moved to New York City, where I was born. And so a lot of things were new for them. The culture, the food, the weather, everything was new. So I think their major challenge was fitting in culturally, the Philippines is very

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close culturally to the United States, though, because of the World War Two post war occupation. And so they knew about American culture, but they weren't immersed in it in the way they were when they arrived.

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I see, yeah, that sounds like a bit of cultural shock that they had to go through. Yes, and I think they purposely raised us as children to be American. So I have a very Americanized name. My name is Andrew Lee.

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My brother is Richard, my sister is Amy. And we–we did not learn to speak Chinese. We only spoke English in the home. So even though my father has a little bit of a accent, none of

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us do. So we were raised to be Americans and for good and for bad, we didn't learn Chinese. And do you think your parents did that so that you could like better assimilate into American society do you think?

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Yes, at that time, in the 1960s in the United States, there were race riots where my parents were doing their residency in Newark at the time. And so they thought the best defense against racism was to integrate as quickly as possible and to assimilate.

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And so we assimilated in language, in name, in culture. But we retained some pieces, the pieces we retained were food, so we still do that to this day, we–we meet and have dinner on a weekly basis. And—food and family.

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Those are the two things that we preserved, everything else we assimilated. I see. So were there any—like if—like at all, traditional holidays, or like Chinese customs that your family celebrated? Or was it like completely Americanized?

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We celebrate all the American holidays, I would say the one Asian holiday that we do is the–the New Year. So for Chinese New Year, we exchange the traditional gifts, and we have traditional foods. But other than that, we really don't follow

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any of the other old traditions. And my parents came from a Catholic country, Philippines is a Catholic country. And so they–they had already adopted the new religion because my grandfather adopted the new religion.

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So my grandfather emigrated from the—what is now called the People's Republic of China, but China back then, he emigrated when he was 17 years old. So he left China in the 40s. And so we already were on our way to assimilation because my

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grandfather had emigrated. Okay, I see. And kind of going off of that, did you ever attend church in the US? And if so, do you continuously attend church now? So we were raised Catholic, I was baptized and took communion and

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confirmation in the Catholic Church, I would say we are still Catholic in name. We are secular Catholics, though, we are non practicing Catholics. But my children go to Catholic school. And so we believe in a lot of the things that I was raised in, in terms of

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Catholicism, in terms of being a good person. I'm not so sure we follow all the rules. And we certainly don't consider ourselves to be church going people. But we do go to church on special occasions.

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And my children do go to church with school. My girls both go to St. Agnes. Awesome, I see. And could I also ask like, what were some important values or

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lessons that your parents instilled in you? I think the most important value that my parents instilled in us was hard work. And we believe in education. So we all have advanced degrees.

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And we tried to instill that in our–in our children as well. I think my mom would say that, they can judge you and they can mistreat you and they can be prejudiced, but what they cannot take away is your degree. So we strongly believe in education.

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I think that my parents sacrificed a lot coming here from their home country. My mom really never went back. My father goes back periodically, but they came here with the idea that they would become Americans.

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So I think that education, hard work, but a–a larger value was becoming an American is—was their goal, and making us into good Americans was part of the plan the entire time. So I think we believe in America, we believe in what America's

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ideal is. I think America itself is still striving for that ideal, but certainly we believe in it. We only bought American products when we were growing up. We only drove American cars.

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We tried to assimilate as best we could we, we–we did everything that a American kid would do. And my parents did that by design. I think that was a difficult thing for them.

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Yeah, that's very interesting. And a little related to that, would you mind describing like the education system where you grew up? So I came from Charleston, West Virginia, a town with only 50,000 people in it.

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So we went to Catholic school, which was a very small school in a very small town already. So we knew every single person on our class, we were the only Asians in our class, the only other Asians that we knew were each other, my siblings.

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And so going to Catholic school was good, and it was bad. It was good because we were part of a community, a Catholic community. It was bad because we were the only Asian kids there. However, growing up in Charleston was kind of a protected idyllic childhood in

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many respects. We didn't have to compete with other Asians. We didn't have to fit into any kind of stereotype, we really couldn't be bullied because of being Asian because we were the only one.

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So in that respect, it was good. We were more like a novelty, I would say. I see. And after like high school, could I transition into college a bit? So what college did you attend for undergrad?

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And how did you choose that college? So after leaving Charleston, West Virginia, I chose to go to the University of Virginia, which was the closest best school that I got into. I was a little bit afraid to leave too far away from home.

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And I wanted to be within driving distance, but I didn't want to stay in West Virginia. I thought West Virginia was a little bit provincial. And so I chose the University of Virginia, in Charlottesville, Virginia, and I stayed there for medical school.

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And it was a beautiful campus and a great place to go to school. Yeah, that sounds awesome. And could I also ask, what subjects you were interested in studying during college and also how you chose your major? So I was a biology major, I chose that because I wanted to be a doctor.

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So we really—in those days, you had pre-med and your choices were chemistry or biology. You could choose other majors, but your chance of getting in the medical school would be less, at least back then.

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And so I did biology, and I really liked it. And I already knew I wanted to be a doctor before going to the University of Virginia. So it was really not that hard a decision to make to stay on. I applied early decision at University of Virginia and just stayed on.

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And could you describe some of the extracurriculars or clubs, activities that you attended during college? So I was a member of a fraternity, Theta Chi fraternity. That was a very exciting time for a young man to experience

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fraternity life. It created a bond with other students right away. And so I didn't really have any problems with a social life because the social calendar was planned out and centered around Greek life and the fraternity.

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I enjoyed participating in a lot of different extracurricular activities. And the fraternity had a lot of structure to it. So we could do intramural sports, we could do

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ushering at sports events, and served as security for some of those events. So we got free admission to a lot of parties, it was really a nice opportunity. And it was a chance to branch out a little bit and do some things that you probably wouldn't have done

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otherwise. And so that, I guess is what college is for. And so for me, my most important extracurricular activities centered on the fraternity and I was able to serve as an officer in my fraternity, and I still keep in touch with many of my fraternity brothers to this day.

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Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun. And do you think like being in that fraternity and like also, the other activities mentioned, like intramural sports, do you think like, they helped shape your passions in any way, like your personal passions, or like help you grow more as a

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young adult? I think that I was already an extrovert when I started school, but it really allowed me to–to make friends and bond with people a lot easier having the fraternity.

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So a fraternity is really good for extroverted people. And it allowed me to meet other people, I took swing dancing. And so that was a lot of fun.

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I did scuba diving, I did things that I never would have thought I would have done living in Charleston, West Virginia. So it really opened my mind to the possibilities that you really could do whatever you want to do.

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And I chose things that maybe Asian people probably wouldn't have chosen. I don't think a lot of Asians would choose scuba diving and swing dancing. But to me, those were things that seemed like wow, this is the time, if you're gonna do it, this is the time to do it.

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Yeah, I think I think scuba diving sounds like a lot of fun. It was interesting, because in the University of Virginia, we're far from the ocean. So our scuba diving was lake diving. And so it can be a little cold.

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So when I actually ended up scuba diving in the real world in the Caribbean, it was like, wow, this is why people scuba dive. Up until that point, I thought, well, this is kind of not what—there's nothing to see. However, when you dive in the Caribbean, you really get to see a lot.

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Yeah, I'm not sure if this is true or not. But I heard that at Rice, we have like a scuba diving class, but they practice in the pool. I'm not sure if that's true, but yeah. That's what we had as well.

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We had a pool and we had a quarry and then we dived in the lake. And then we took a trip to the Bahamas. And so you got to dive there. Oh that's awesome.

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Yeah. And could I also ask like, for a lot of people, I think college is a time when you kind of step out of your comfort zone and like you're inspired to choose a path that you maybe didn't see yourself pursuing before. So did that happen for you at any point?

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And do you remember if it was like a distinct moment, or if it was more like a gradual realization. So for me, I have always wanted to be a doctor. And so the path really was set for me from the very start.

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And so I really didn't have to move outside my comfort zone in terms of academics. I knew that I had to study, I knew I had to get good grades, I knew I had to–to be a good student to be a doctor. Where I was able to go outside my comfort zone was more on the social

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side and the extracurricular side. Those are opportunities that college gave me that weren't in the classroom at all. Okay, that makes sense. And do you have any professors or mentors that left an—left like a lasting impact on your life?

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So in high school, my biology teacher, was really instrumental in inspiring me to go into biology. Because his love of biology extended beyond just book learning, we went out into the field, we collected bugs, we collected leaves, we

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collected twigs. So he was very big into field biology. And to me, I'd never even conceived of science like this. But he was all about getting out there and seeing it in the real world.

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And so that really influenced me both to go into biology, but also, in even in medicine, now, I use that same teaching method, that we're not going to learn from books, we're going to learn from people, and the operating room, and from the hospital setting. And so we learn by going out and–and talking to patients.

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And that I got from my biology teacher. In college, I would say my most influential teacher was my philosophy professor. So that is one of the things in the classroom that I was able to do that I wasn't

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planning on doing. As a biology and a science major, you have a very strict set of classes that you could take and so your elective load was quite low for choice, but I chose philosophy. And that was like the opposite of biology, there was nothing to prove, there were no

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experiments, there was no lab, it was just about thinking about things, problems, and–and dilemmas that have been plaguing mankind for—since the dawn of time, and thinking about those kinds of questions was quite–quite a change for me. But it opened my mind to the whole realm of possibility of thinking

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outside the box and–and testing things that really can't be tested. So that was very influential. And then I would say, in–in fellowship, my–my mentors in those realms helped me to be a better

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doctor, by understanding that patients come first. And so one of the most influential people for me in that regard was my fellowship director, Dr. Neil Miller. And he was very much all about talking to the patient.

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So getting the answer by talking to the patient, he said, if we didn't get the answer by talking to them, we're not going to get the answer by testing them, or examining them. And I've tried to carry that philosophy with me into my own practice. Yeah, that sounds like those were very valuable experiences to have.

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And I think like, the part about you going outside and kind of being more like, hands on with your work is kind of like reminiscent of your childhood? Because, like when you used to go outside and play in the—play in nature. And I think you started talking about this a bit, but could you like elaborate a bit about

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your post undergrad medical education? So I went to medical school at the University of Virginia, it was a little bit of an easy choice, because I felt so comfortable there. I was able to live in the range.

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So in our school, they have the original dormitories of the University of Virginia, which was founded by Thomas Jefferson. The original dormitories have no bathroom in their rooms, you have to go outside. And so you have to apply to get a room there.

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And so when my parents came to visit me, they were shocked that the bathroom was outside and they were asking me what I had done bad to deserve such a terrible room. I had to explain to them that it was actually an honor to live in the original dormitory. But in medical school, I–I felt like

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it really allowed me to find my passion, which is understanding disease process. And I was able to serve in a teaching role from a very early on, in a peer-to-peer and peer-to-near-peer role.

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And so that rela—that relationship and that experience has made me very much a believer in peer-to-peer education. So serving as a teaching assistant in classes and helping other people with tutoring really honed my learning skills and I was able to form

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smaller study groups that would allow me to hone my skills as a teacher, and it really has helped me now as a faculty member and a professor, because I teach as if I am that person's level, so that they can understand it at a level that's appropriate to their level of understanding and their

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knowledge base. And so, to me, that was the most important experience that I had, was participating in peer-to-near-peer activities. The other thing I did in medical school is I was on the admissions committee. And so that was fascinating because you got to interview future medical students, people

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who would end up being your near peers, your junior classmates, and allowed me to sit on the other side of the table and see, exactly what are we looking for? What makes a good doctor? How is this person any better or worse than another person?

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And it turns out that a lot of the intangible things that we were looking for, are still the important things that we look for, for doctors of today, when we choose our residents, and when I choose my fellows. So that experience was also very, very helpful.

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That sounds really cool. And kind of related to education, like as you said, you served as Professor and also Associate Professor, I think, and so what was it like to kind of interact with these students who are pursuing a similar career path as you did?

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And what was the most memorable part, memorable part of these experiences? So when you're Assistant Professor, and even up to Associate Professor, your whole academic life is devoted to what I would call your first mountain.

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So David Brooks is a New York Times author, and he calls that your first mountain. That first mountain is all about you, my papers, my publications, my research, because you're trying to build a resume. And then after a while, you reach the top of your first mountain, and you

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realize that it's not all about you anymore. It's helping other people. So to me, the most rewarding part of my current job is that I get to mentor and help young people achieve their goals.

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And so that's what David Brooks called a second mountain. So my second mountain is helping people get over their first mountain. So I have found that enabling my dream was really a lot of fun, but enabling the dreams of others has been more fun.

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And it's more rewarding and more exciting. And every year, we have about 30 medical students that we mentor. And we have two summer interns from high school. And we usually have some Rice undergrads.

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So having all those different levels of learners, high school, undergrad, graduate, medical resident and fellow really allows us to share our passion for our work and also helps them become better teachers and better learners.

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And so that's really been the most exciting part of my job. Currently, it's not just about taking care of patients, but creating the next generation of doctors who are going to take care of patients. So to me, that is how I'm leveraging my position.

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I really like that imagery of like the first mountain and then the second mountain. Yeah. I keep a little book. Wanna see it?

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Yeah, sure! The learners, they write to me. And they—every time they do I put their little stories in this book.

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Aww, that's so sweet. There were so many I had to make another. Yeah, it's like it's like, almost breaking at the seams— I know. The title that they–they made this book for me, it

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says "The Impact of a Real Life Mr. Miyagi." Mr. Miyagi is from Karate Kid. Oh, okay. Yeah, I was gonna ask who that was.

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So Mr. Miyagi's lessons are karate lessons, but they're also life lessons. And so I take inspiration from that when I teach my medical students and residents, that it's not just about being a better doctor.

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It's about aspiring to be a better person. And so that is what I ascribe to and that is the motto that I follow. Yeah, awesome. And could you describe your involvement with like the larger community where you live? And it can—it can be like in Houston, or I know you've also lived in like

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the Midwest as well. Just like, anywhere you want. Yeah. So I believe in giving back. So in all of my organizations, I strive to be not just a member,

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but to be a participating member. That means being part of the committee structure. And then I try and ascend to the leadership positions, if I can. And so at a national level, I've done this with my

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subspecialty organization, the Neuro-Ophthalmology Society and with the American Academy of Ophthalmology. So I truly believe that these organizations thrive only with the support of volunteers.

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And so I try and volunteer 20% of my time towards my organization and my academic life outside of Houston, Texas. So that's the American Board of Ophthalmology, where we not only examine but write the examinations for the future generation of doctors.

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The American Academy of Ophthalmology, which is about teaching, and so we're involved in lecture building, curriculum, giving courses, and the North American Neuro-Ophthalmology Society, which is my subspecialty organization. So I've served on the board and as the President of that organization, and I was the

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first Asian American to be a President of the North American Society. So to me, being a visible representative of–of our minority of Asians in general, but also Chinese-Americans in medicine, has been a super important thing for me.

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My parents would have taken the opposite approach, they're trying not to be noticed, they're trying not to be called upon. And so I don't–I don't ascribe to that philosophy, I really believe that Asian Americans have to take an active visible role in our

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leadership structure, and in our own organizations, otherwise, we're never gonna go anywhere. So to me, there's been a little bit of a bamboo ceiling, that has blocked us, it's like the glass ceiling for–for women or for other minorities.

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And breaking through that bamboo ceiling means breaking those stereotypes. And so I try and be the first to volunteer, I try and be visible, I try and volunteer for stuff, so that on the academic side, that's what I've done. In the community here, I'm on the board of the Houston

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Symphony. And for my medical school, I'm on the board for the University of Virginia Medical Alumni Association. So I truly believe that part of giving back means participating at a board level, not just in a volunteer capacity, but in

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an–in a development and a strategic initiative, building capacity so that we can have a voice, and we can have a seat at the table. So if we're not at the table, then of course, we're not—nobody knows who we are. But I really believe strongly that we should be more prominent in our

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organizations. And so I try to do this in our community here in Houston, but also in the broader sense, for our academic community. I totally agree. And I think that's awesome. And also, congrats on your role in like so many different organizations.

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And I also read that you have been a guest speaker at many different, like events, and would you mind describing like, what–what that's like to speak to so many people? So I was in debate in high school.

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So public speaking came naturally to me. It also helped me to develop my teaching skills. So when you're asked to lecture, sometimes it's small audiences, sometimes it's humongous audiences.

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And so I would say one of my strengths is that I'm able to communicate easily in a, whether it's one on one or one on a thousand. So for me, I've been fortunate to be invited to over 500 meetings where I'm the speaker, it's a lot of fun.

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Not because—not only because you get to speak at the meeting, but they take you around, you get to travel. So to me, one of the most exciting parts of my job is being able to travel and see new places.

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And when you have a local host that takes you to the places and shows you the food and shows you around and really is making an effort to show the best part of their culture and the best part of their food and the best part of their city, it really makes travel so much more enjoyable.

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When you have a native person, a native speaker, showing you the ropes basically. So to me, I've been so lucky that my job allows me to see the world and help people. So I would say I get to do well, by doing good.

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And that's kind of a good job. Yeah. Would you say that traveling is one of your like, favorite hobbies to do? Yeah, so I particularly like historical travel. So if–if a town that I'm speaking at has any kind of history

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behind it, I'll try and go and look at it. I think that immersing yourself and feeling the time, trying to put yourself in that historical time, really brings history alive. So when you read about things and read a bunch of dates, it really doesn't

00:30:24.130 - 00:30:37.710

stick, at least not for me. But when I go there, and I can see the fort, and I can look out onto the water and see where the boats were, to me, it really brings to life, the history of the place.

00:30:38.230 - 00:30:57.160

And I can–I can feel and hear and smell and see what it was like to be there in whatever year happened to be their famous year. And, to me, that's the most important part of traveling, is learning something. So I really like to learn something about the culture, the

00:30:57.160 - 00:31:15.370

history, their cuisine, and the people. Normally, when I travel, I try and learn their—a little, few little phrases too. Normally the ones you have to learn are: "please," "thank you," "check please," and "where's the bathroom?" Those are the four that you have—you kind of

00:31:15.370 - 00:31:32.520

have to know those four. And then I try and learn a few extra ones to impress my hosts if I can. Those are usually "cheers." And if you learn those five, but especially "cheers," it really makes–makes

00:31:33.040 - 00:31:44.690

them happy that you tried. Nice. Do you remember like any—like how to say any of those phrases in like the languages? Yeah. So it's—it actually comes in handy.

00:31:44.690 - 00:31:58.690

Because if you meet someone from that country, and you have those words, it really is really great. So we were in Galveston for the Memorial Day. And our—we went to Bubba Gump Seafood, and our waitress was from

00:31:58.750 - 00:32:17.550

Russia. And so I was able to say to her "spasibo," which is thank you in Russian, and goodbye, "do svidaniya." So if you just say a few little words to people, especially if you have an Asian face, and you speak Russian, they really are impressed,

00:32:18.720 - 00:32:34.030

even though I don't speak any other Russian other than this. Yeah, I get—you get to use it periodically. Would you be interested in like, I don't know if you know about Duolingo, or like other apps like that, but like language speaking apps?

00:32:35.970 - 00:32:49.230

Yeah, so we—I–I have the—I've used that translator, Google Translate, on some things before. One time I was in the airport. And this Vietnamese lady came up to the only Asian face she could see in the airport,

00:32:49.270 - 00:33:02.440

which was me. And she started talking in Vietnamese. I didn't understand a word she said. But it was clear that she was in distress. And she was by herself. And so I used the Google Translate and wrote in,

00:33:02.710 - 00:33:15.120

"tell me what's wrong," in Vietnamese. And she typed it, and then Siri just read it in English. And it turns out, her son was supposed to meet her there. But he didn't.

00:33:15.750 - 00:33:30.310

And now she was in a strange country in a strange airport. And she didn't know anybody. And so she just picked the first Asian face that she saw, which was mine. And so we used the Google translate to get the number of the son, and then I

00:33:30.310 - 00:33:43.410

called him on my phone, because she didn't have one. She–she didn't speak English. So to me, that's the power of technology is that you have at your fingertips these amazing tools.

00:33:43.570 - 00:34:00.340

And it–it really helped that lady at least. Yeah, sounds like Google Translate and other services can really come in handy in times like that. Yeah. So can I also ask what is like the most fulfilling thing about your current

00:34:00.340 - 00:34:13.050

job at Houston Methodist? So when I was a kid, I wanted to be a doctor. I told you I knew I wanted to be a doctor. I—my second choice was to work for NASA.

00:34:13.050 - 00:34:33.350

And my third choice was to be a Jedi Knight. So those were my three aspirational goals in 1978. And it turns out in my current job that I get to do all three of these things, I became a doctor. I get to work in the Human Spaceflight

00:34:34.120 - 00:34:51.290

program at NASA. Because the Johnson Space Center is housed here in Houston, Texas, in Clear Lake. And so some of the most exciting work that I've been able to be participating in has been in Spaceflight Associated Neuro-Ocular Syndrome, which is

00:34:51.290 - 00:35:08.520

like the neuro-ophthalmology of spaceflight. It has no terrestrial equivalent, it only occurs in astronauts. So I just happen to live in the town where the only neuro-ophthalmology condition of space, and all the patients live in

00:35:08.520 - 00:35:23.050

Houston, Texas. So to me, that's been really an exciting thing, is I don't get to be a Spaceman, but I get to work for NASA. And my third was to be a Jedi Knight. And so when I ask people

00:35:23.400 - 00:35:39.150

to tell me about their problems, and when we look in their eye, we really have a superpower. And that's superpower is we can look in people's eyes and see disease and make a diagnosis. I told my Vice President of the hospital, that is what

00:35:39.150 - 00:35:53.150

neuro-ophthalmology is, he said, "well, what is neuro-ophthalmology?" I said, "well, we're like neuro and ophthalmology." He says, "well, what does that mean?" I said, "you can look in people's eyes, and see they have a brain tumor. Or you can look in their eyes and see they have an aneurysm or stroke."

00:35:54.040 - 00:36:10.730

And so to me, those three things have really been my aspirational goal from childhood, I-I am a living embodiment of what me of the past would say, I want to do. And, and I have done what me of the past would have said

00:36:11.940 - 00:36:27.790

is impossible, to do all three: be a doctor, work for NASA, and be a Jedi Knight. These were aspirational goals in 1978, but I get to do all three. So that to me is really the sum of my job, I-I

00:36:28.840 - 00:36:43.870

would go to work for free. I like what I do, I would–I would do it for free. However, as we mentioned, the–the best part of my job is not the clinical care, or the research, which are valuable parts of what I do.

00:36:43.870 - 00:37:00.170

But the most important part of my job is mentoring, and career development for young people. So to me, that is the most important and the most personally and professionally rewarding part of my job, is young people, helping young people find their

00:37:00.170 - 00:37:12.990

way in ophthalmology. That's really, really the most important part of my job and the most rewarding. And I-I feel strongly about this. So I'm the faculty advisor for our ophthalmology interest group.

00:37:13.460 - 00:37:30.690

We have four medical schools here in Houston: Texas—University of Texas, Houston, UTMB, which is in Galveston, Baylor College of Medicine, and Texas A&M, so we have four medical schools. And that means we generate about 30 applicants of ophthalmology residents a year,

00:37:30.930 - 00:37:46.860

that's 5% of the entire country. So 5% of all of ophthalmology passes through my office every year. And that makes me happy. And I tell these young people, I only have three requirements for helping you.

00:37:47.600 - 00:38:01.300

Number one, remember us, number two, make us proud, and number three, pay it forward. So this is the only thing I ask for them. And I've been doing it for 25 years.

00:38:01.300 - 00:38:18.510

And so now it's over 250 of those letters in that little Mr. Miyagi book. And so that, to me, is the most important part of my job. Yeah, that sounds really fulfilling for you. And you've talked a lot about like helping other people, with like their own paths in

00:38:18.510 - 00:38:33.110

life. And I was wondering if you could go back in time and give a piece of advice to your own younger self, what would it be? I guess I would have mixed feelings about what I would tell myself because I wouldn't want to screw it up.

00:38:33.820 - 00:38:49.810

I think that if you went back in time, you might tell yourself something, and you might get on the wrong path. So I'm assuming some people would say, you know, buy Apple, or you know, Bitcoin, or something like that to make money that could definitely, totally ruin my trajectory.

00:38:51.350 - 00:39:08.210

I–I think you could also say, you know, don't worry or be happy or some "flatitude" like that, it wouldn't make any difference to yours—to yourself of the past. I don't think I would change anything. So even if I could go back, I wouldn't want to mess up the timeline.

00:39:09.100 - 00:39:23.710

I believe strongly that everything that has happened in my life has been a contributing factor to building me as a person. And character is built with challenge. And if you miss out on one of those challenges, it might not make you the person

00:39:23.710 - 00:39:42.400

you were. So I've certainly had challenges in my life. I would certainly have valued if someone had said, Hey, don't do X because it's a dead end. But what would happen if that dead end is actually the challenge that made you resilient? The thing that created your persona, the thing that made you

00:39:42.400 - 00:40:01.850

persevere, was the fact that you failed in something. I would not want to deprive me of the past of these things. I will tell you this though, my kids always are posing these hypothetical things to me and one of their hypotheticals was you get to go back in time and tell your 18 year old

00:40:01.850 - 00:40:13.690

self three words and three words only. What would you tell yourself? So I gave them the same answer that I gave to you. And they didn't like it. They said, "no, you have to go back and you have to tell yourself

00:40:13.690 - 00:40:28.370

something." So I will tell you this story about my classmates. When I was in medical school, my classmate had Hodgkin's Lymphoma, and she died as a young woman. She had this very strange symptom of itching.

00:40:29.370 - 00:40:42.270

She was just itching all the time, even though there was nothing on her skin. Me of the past did not know what that was. Because we were in medical school. She went to the doctor a million times, no diagnosis was made.

00:40:42.940 - 00:40:58.200

They didn't do the right tests, because it was Hodgkin's Lymphoma. It's what we call a paraneoplastic effect. So when you have cancer in one part of your body, you can get neurogenic pruritus, which is you have itching because something is being produced by the tumor that's making

00:40:58.200 - 00:41:13.980

you itch. There's actually nothing wrong with your skin. She had this symptom. Me of the present knows that's a sign of Hodgkin's Lymphoma. And so if I could go back in time, I would—and I had to tell myself something, I would say "neurogenic

00:41:16.930 - 00:41:32.940

itching lymphoma." Those are the three words I would choose. It would make no sense to that person. But then when my friend starts having the itching, I would know hey, a long time ago, a guy from the future came and told me, "neurogenic

00:41:33.070 - 00:41:43.720

itching lymphoma," and I think we should work you up for lymphoma. Yeah, that's what I would do. I would go back in time and save my friend. Yeah, that's really powerful.

00:41:43.870 - 00:41:55.220

I was like, my mind was just like, oh, kind of like a joke question, or kind of lighthearted. But yeah, that's–that's like very, very powerful. Thank you for sharing that. I would say I'm a kind of a serious-minded person.

00:41:55.620 - 00:42:08.490

So I'm often asked these questions. My kids say, "if you're on a desert island, what book would you bring?" And you're supposed to say Shakespeare or Vonnegut or something. I said, Basic Shipbuilding.

00:42:08.950 - 00:42:19.470

That's what I said. They didn't like that. My second choice was How to Survive on a Desert Island. They didn't like that. So there you go. Very–very practical.

00:42:20.690 - 00:42:31.670

[laughs] Yeah. And just a bit more about your family. How have you and your family been dealing with COVID so far? So my parents live here in Houston as well.

00:42:32.010 - 00:42:42.620

And so—and they're both doctors. They're retired, of course. So we went into full shutdown. That was a whole year I did not see my parents, I told you that we–we had a

00:42:42.620 - 00:42:56.890

weekly dinner, we would go to the dim sum. And the dim sum is pretty much the exact same food every single time. But there's something comforting about dim sum. And it's not really about the food, it's about going and hanging around for an hour at

00:42:57.160 - 00:43:11.550

Fung's Kitchen. And so we went to Zoom, and Zoom is not the same. But we had every week Zoom, every week Zoom. And so we didn't have no contact, but we had no physical contact. After my parents were vaccinated, we had a party.

00:43:13.270 - 00:43:28.540

And–and they came to the house and we had a dinner. So that was the very first time we'd seen our—my parents in a year. And that just happened maybe two weeks ago. We have had two deaths in our family from COVID-19.

00:43:30.390 - 00:43:43.540

One was someone who was in a nursing home and was already suffering from Alzheimer's, dementia. And so that person, it was not the death that was sad, because it was expected and it was kind of a release.

00:43:44.200 - 00:44:00.610

In fact, that was a little bit of a relief, that they didn't have to suffer anymore. The worst part about that one was we didn't get to say goodbye, because they wouldn't let us go in the nursing home. And so we had to say goodbye on Zoom, but Zooming

00:44:01.240 - 00:44:15.150

someone who's dying. So, to me, we have never really experienced death in that way. We are–we are doctors, so we've seen death all the time. But seeing death in a very slow,

00:44:15.990 - 00:44:33.770

agonal breathing kind of way on Zoom was very surreal and also disturbing in a deeply disturbing way. So we didn't–we didn't get to say goodbye. The other person who has my relative also was old, had comorbidities, so it's

00:44:33.770 - 00:44:47.720

not that much of a surprise. But he also died from COVID-19. So of the 500 some thousand people who have died, I know two of them in my own family. So I guess I would say COVID-19

00:44:48.930 - 00:45:08.510

left a personal scar on our family because it took two people from us. Very sad. But it made you appreciate contact. There's my grand—like my parents' grandchildren, my children, didn't get to hug anybody.

00:45:09.060 - 00:45:20.990

It's hard not to hug people. So this is–this is something that is been painful for us. But hopefully it'll be over soon. We'll see.

00:45:22.030 - 00:45:38.420

Yeah, I'm–I'm really sorry about your loss. And I know like loss is very different in COVID situations, yeah. And what is your outlook on like how life or social life, and like contact, as you described, will change as more and more people get vaccinated?

00:45:41.160 - 00:45:57.350

I think that if we can reach herd immunity, and even if we don't completely reach herd immunity, the pandemic is going to end. And what will happen is, some things will go back to normal. And some things will not.

00:45:57.830 - 00:46:13.110

Like this Zoom interview, that wouldn't have happened before COVID-19. I have Grand Rounds every morning. And we do it on Zoom. And it actually had unintended benefits, because it opened up to more people, we

00:46:13.110 - 00:46:27.740

couldn't fit 20 people in a room. Now we can. We couldn't have people from different countries, because they're in different countries. Now we can. We–we couldn't really call on as many people as we can.

00:46:27.740 - 00:46:41.260

Now we can call on everybody and ask them what they think about cases and ask them to vote and give questions. So that part is going to stay I think. We also don't go to the grocery store anymore, even though we can.

00:46:41.720 - 00:46:53.540

We just order online now. So some of those things are not going to change. We don't shake hands with people who are patients. That used to be required, that you shake hands with the person, now we don't do any of

00:46:53.540 - 00:47:07.160

that. So some of those things I think are going to be retained. But there's something super important about physical touch, and Zoom is okay. But it also causes Zoom fatigue.

00:47:07.470 - 00:47:19.060

So, like today, I have like seven Zooms. And it's just taxing, you're–you're not used to this, as it's very taxing. At the end of each call.

00:47:19.060 - 00:47:31.910

I'm always so tired. Versus in face to face. I'm usually energized by face to face meetings, but I'm–I'm diminished slightly by these Zoom meetings. So I think that it really has

00:47:32.380 - 00:47:43.960

made me realize the importance of physical contact. Human beings are social creatures. We kind of like high fiving people, we like hugging people. We like shaking hands with strangers.

00:47:45.300 - 00:47:53.340

It's such a strange thing. But yeah, I miss that. So hopefully, we'll get back to that. But some things are probably not gonna come back.

00:47:55.070 - 00:48:12.220

Yeah, I hope so too. And yeah, I think COVID has definitely changed some things just like forever. But yeah, so unlike other professions, where people can kind of work from home during the pandemic, physicians usually have to go in person. So I was wondering what specific challenges that posed?

00:48:13.820 - 00:48:32.010

Yeah, so ophthalmology is a very close proximity specialty. So we cannot do the six foot thing and examine your eye, we have to really be in your face. So we had to wear N-95 masks and a shield in the beginning of the pandemic, and we didn't see anybody unless it was an

00:48:32.010 - 00:48:47.190

emergency. However, even though we can't work from home, we did a lot of tele-visits, tele-ophthalmology, where it was like a Zoom call, but it was a doctor visit. And that was—that went away slowly because people don't like it.

00:48:47.240 - 00:49:07.760

But also it's not as good as a face to face for ophthalmology, which is our specialty. The first doctor to report the pandemic in China was an ophthalmologist, and he died. So I think ophthalmology has been at the forefront of a lot of the pandemic's problems

00:49:09.540 - 00:49:26.560

in medicine, which is there’s some specialties where you really can't not be in someone's face, and we're one of those. Anaesthesia, EMT, these are other specialties where you cannot switch to tele. You cannot just not see the person or do what you got to do from six feet away.

00:49:26.560 - 00:49:45.090

We cannot look at people's eyes from six feet away. So to me that was interesting because it made us choose. And the choice was, we can either get back in there and know that we're in battle and we have to get on the front line and take our chances with illness,

00:49:45.910 - 00:50:00.540

or we could not see any patients. And so all of us chose to stay on the frontline and wear the PPE knowing that it was dangerous, and that the PPE that we had would not protect us from that level of proximity.

00:50:02.080 - 00:50:16.450

And so it really is an eye opening experience, no pun intended, to your own mortality, but also to make you realize what truly is important. And why did you choose this job? We chose this job to serve the sick.

00:50:17.510 - 00:50:34.430

And so not seeing sick people is not part of the choice. And it really reinforced why we're in this and made it palpable and real, that you could die from your job. That's a strange thing.

00:50:35.390 - 00:50:53.990

However, that was always there, because we were exposed to illness all the time, but it wasn't as palpable and proximate as it became during COVID-19. Every potential patient could have been the one that gives you the COVID-19. So I'm thankful that science has saved us with the

00:50:53.990 - 00:51:10.860

vaccine, and that we don't have to wear all that stuff anymore. Thank you so much for doing that, too. And I know like, probably a lot of patients were helped out by that, yeah. And so there have been some medical practitioners who have opted out of

00:51:10.880 - 00:51:26.760

getting the COVID-19 vaccine. So how concerned are you about that situation? I don't think that people who provide medical care should do harm. In our business, we call it "primum non nocere." First, do no harm.

00:51:27.340 - 00:51:46.540

It's part of an oath that we take that if we can't help someone, well at least don't harm them. By not vaccinating, you could potentially harm a patient. And so to me, even though this is a personal choice, on a professional level, I don't believe that doctors should not be

00:51:46.540 - 00:51:58.610

vaccinated. So our hospital, Houston Methodist Hospital, has been in the news lately, because we have mandated all our employees be vaccinated. It's just a requirement. We did this before with the flu vaccine.

00:51:59.240 - 00:52:10.980

So to me, it's about a patient safety issue and not really an autonomy issue or a freedom issue. It's part of our job to protect the public. Getting a vaccine protects the public.

00:52:11.590 - 00:52:28.550

We are servants of the public, and therefore we should get the vaccine. Yeah, I–I think that makes sense too. And also this year, not only COVID, but we've also seen a spike in Asian hate crimes, in part due to the xenophobic narrative surrounding

00:52:28.550 - 00:52:47.020

COVID-19. So what is your personal take on that situation? So I don't believe that viruses have nationality. In the past, names like Spanish flu have been used. And—but to call it the Wuhan virus, or the China virus,

00:52:47.330 - 00:52:58.760

to me, is unnecessary. Number one, the name of the virus is SARS-CoV-2. It has a name already. So giving it an–an ethnic nickname is unnecessary.

00:53:00.920 - 00:53:17.920

Number two, it does increase the hate crimes. And so Asian Americans already are discriminated against in various ways. And this just gives license to that. And I don't think the numbers lie, this—there's been a spike in the hate crimes.

00:53:18.400 - 00:53:34.810

And it's tied directly to certain individuals using those words. So to me, it's representative of our larger political problem, which is the divisiveness and the trying to make people others. There's no others.

00:53:35.210 - 00:53:45.760

There's only Americans. We are Chinese-Americans, but we are Americans. We are Americans first, and Chinese people are people. They are people first.

00:53:46.090 - 00:53:59.560

Viruses are not people. Viruses have no nationality, viruses do not respect geographical boundaries. It doesn't work like that. There is no China virus because the virus was there

00:53:59.560 - 00:54:11.910

before. And it just happened to begin in China. So to me, I just find this to be appalling. The science doesn't support it. CDC doesn't support it, the WHO doesn't support it.

00:54:13.560 - 00:54:27.460

And it really makes you wonder if someone uses that word, why are you doing that? So it's really about them, not so much about me. But if someone says to me, that's the China virus, I say, well, why exactly are you calling it that?

00:54:27.460 - 00:54:46.210

What is the—what is the purpose of saying it that way? And they'll say this: "because it came from China." I say, you don't know that. Just like the Spanish flu may have come from America. And the story I like to tell those people is,

00:54:47.480 - 00:55:04.240

syphilis used to be called the French disease. The Germans called it the French disease. But the Italians called it the German disease, and the Portuguese called it the English disease, and the Russians called it the Western disease, and

00:55:04.240 - 00:55:18.060

the Muslims called it the Christian disease, and the Hindus called it the Muslim disease, and the Muslims called it the Hindu disease. That is why people choose to call it that, to divide us. And I dislike that.

00:55:20.520 - 00:55:33.720

Yeah, I–I totally agree. And I think that's also a good way to deal with people who are saying that. So more like personal to you, how would you identify yourself? And this can be anything about your ethnicity, or your religion, your core

00:55:33.720 - 00:55:51.140

beliefs, anything like that. I consider myself to be a Chinese American. But I'm an American first and a Chinese-American second. I would consider my heritage to be important to me on a historical

00:55:51.140 - 00:56:04.830

basis, but much in the same way that immigrants from Scotland or Ireland, or England, gave up their mother country to become Americans. That is how I view my status. I'm an American-born Chinese.

00:56:05.140 - 00:56:23.250

But I consider myself to be American first. I would say my identity derives mostly from my job, and my family, I would consider myself to be a family man, husband, father, son, grandson,

00:56:23.950 - 00:56:41.600

brother. These are the ways I would describe myself. And I truly believe that I am a doctor first and an ophthalmologist second and a neuro-ophthalmologist third. And I put it in that order because I really believe that you have to be a doctor

00:56:41.600 - 00:56:58.860

before you can be an eye doctor, and you have to be an eye doctor before you can be a brain eye doctor. And I try and live by a very simple rule, which is the rules that we were given in our oath, which is do good, which we call beneficence.

00:56:59.950 - 00:57:14.640

Do what is right, that is justice. And don't do any harm, that's non-maleficence. That's the "primum non nocere," first do no harm. And respect people's autonomy.

00:57:15.670 - 00:57:31.740

So in our hospital, we have our "I CARE" values, I-C-A-R-E. Integrity, compassion, accountability, respect, and excellence. So anything that I do in my professional capacity, I always ask myself, does

00:57:31.800 - 00:57:43.330

this follow the "I CARE" values? Is this something that I would be proud of? Or proud to tell my children I did? And if the answer is no, that means don't do it.

00:57:44.470 - 00:58:04.070

So I would say my work persona derives from "I CARE" values. And my home persona derives from Chinese values, but really all human values, respect for others, doing the right thing, justice, beneficence, non-maleficence, autonomy,

00:58:04.640 - 00:58:17.980

I try and follow these rules. These are secular rules. So I'm not really big on the Commandments, even though I know what they all are. I was Catholic before, but I'm not really a "follow the rules" and "that's a

00:58:17.980 - 00:58:36.310

sin" kind of person, I'm more of a "be the best person you can be, do the right thing for the right reason." And that's kind of what I use to guide my life. Yeah, I–I really like the "I CARE" thing, because it's kind of like "eyecare."

00:58:37.290 - 00:58:49.400

Yeah. It is "eyecare"! It's easy to remember too. Yes. And so you've had an extremely successful professional career. How would you personally define the word "success"?

00:58:51.670 - 00:59:10.280

I think that success is defined not—but by what you did, but who you helped. And so to me, my metric for success used to be about how many papers and how much money and prestige and awards,

00:59:11.750 - 00:59:26.300

but those are just the markers of the people you helped. So to me, winning an award for teaching is not about the Teaching Award. It's about helping other people.

00:59:27.120 - 00:59:48.340

And so my metric of success now it's the success of others. I consider myself to be a success if I save a patient from blindness or death, if I teach someone else to do the same. I like the idea that I'm helping other people, people I don't know, people who are

00:59:48.340 - 01:00:09.160

strangers to me, and helping other people help those other people. And I believe that success for me and my family is going to be making sure my children are happy, and are good people. I tell them, they don't have to be rich, but you can't be poor.

01:00:10.050 - 01:00:29.050

You don't have to be super smart, but you have to do your best. I would prefer if you get an education, because that's super important to me. And I want you to be—have a graduate degree. Other than that, as long as you're happy, whatever choices you make, are your own to

01:00:29.050 - 01:00:49.690

make. So I would hope that my children would find the type of success that my grandfather envisioned when he left China in 1936. I think that he would be amazed at what his descendants have done. My grandfather was born in the Qing Dynasty in

01:00:49.840 - 01:01:07.250

1896. His leader was the Emperor of China. And then he immigrated and had a bunch of wars. He worked as a janitor, in a lumber company in Manila, the Philippines.

01:01:07.490 - 01:01:25.650

He did not speak the Filipino language or English. But as the janitor, he could read the two-language newspaper that was in the trash every day, and taught himself English from the garbage. He saved every single dime that he had, and used half of it to learn the English language

01:01:25.670 - 01:01:39.570

with lessons. And then he sent his kid to medical school. And then that kid immigrated to the United States, and then that kid had another kid. And that kid was me.

01:01:42.120 - 01:02:02.980

And my children never got to meet their grand, great grandfather. And I barely knew my grandfather, he died at age 103. Literally, my grandfather saw the flight of the Wright brothers, the landing of man on the moon, the

01:02:02.980 - 01:02:22.220

invention of the computer, the television, radio, internet, every single thing that I take for granted, my grandfather saw. He also saw two world wars. So I guess, part of me is still him, you know,

01:02:23.930 - 01:02:43.940

his dream was to have Americans, descendants in America, that—who would have a better life. So I think I'm the living embodiment of that. I would judge success as that, the metric is, would my grandfather be proud

01:02:43.940 - 01:02:55.330

of his grandson? I think so. That's a good enough metric of success for me. Yeah, I definitely think so, too. And yeah, I think that's super impressive what your grandfather did.

01:02:55.560 - 01:03:15.870

And I think if he, if he were like, if he could see right now, I think he would be very, very impressed. And I would also want to ask, like, what is your proudest accomplishment so far? I think I am most proud of being the Chairman of the Blanton Eye

01:03:15.870 - 01:03:31.840

Institute. I would say my second most proud achievement was being President of the North American Neuro-Ophthalmology Society. Mostly because there aren't a lot of Asian American Chairmen of Ophthalmology, even though we make up almost 20% of the number of

01:03:31.840 - 01:03:47.910

ophthalmologists, the number of Asians who are chairs, or Deans, is not proportionate to the number. So we're a very big part of the denominator relative to our percentage of the population. And I think that cross cuts across all the sciences, and the professions.

01:03:48.270 - 01:04:05.160

We're big numbers when it comes to PhDs and scientists and researchers. But once you start getting to the chair level, we're not big numbers. And once you get above that to Dean and Provost, we just don't have the kind of numbers. And so to me, breaking the

01:04:05.160 - 01:04:24.350

bamboo ceiling has been part of my aspirational goal. I feel proud that I was the first Asian American to be the President of our Society. I feel proud when I'm on the board meetings of these organizations, and I look around and I see the diversity in–in the, in the board.

01:04:24.900 - 01:04:40.720

And I realize that they are—that I'm not the only one. I think that we are the past would be amazed that these were opportunities that I took advantage of and was able to accomplish. I think me of the past probably would have been satisfied with just being a doctor.

01:04:41.440 - 01:04:53.890

That was kind of good enough. The other things were, you know NASA and be a Jedi Knight. They're kind of like silly goals. But that's–that's as far as a 13 year olds brain can go.

01:04:55.030 - 01:05:12.800

And I think if you look back on my life, I would say serving as a role model for others has been the greatest reward. And I'm most proud of that, because when I look at the leadership structure of the organizations I have led, there are many Asian faces now.

01:05:14.670 - 01:05:34.810

And I would have considered myself a novelty in the beginning, but now I'm–I'm not. So I'm proud to be part of that, like, tip of the spear. I'm proud of that. I'm proud to show my peers that Asian Americans are not all

01:05:35.120 - 01:05:55.630

monolithic, that we are not one stereotype that we–we can enjoy a beer and I go to the football game and talk baseball and do things that they just didn't think we could do. And I think that more and more Asians are like that now, just normal

01:05:55.630 - 01:06:13.050

Americans. And that-that's–that's what I'm proud of. I think that the thing I'm proud of is when I go to meetings now, I think people don't see a Chinese American, they just see American. That's good. That change occurred in my lifetime.

01:06:16.130 - 01:06:30.510

Yeah, that's awesome. And it's just, it's great to see like, how far things have come. And I would also want to ask, I know you've mentioned traveling, and are there any other like, hobbies or interests that you have outside of your career?

01:06:32.790 - 01:06:51.110

Yeah, so I would say, I like to write stuff. I'm really into developing innovative things. And so the things that have my children have taught me is that using multimedia has–has opened new audiences for us.

01:06:51.480 - 01:07:04.930

So we made a YouTube channel. And our YouTube channel has 30,000 subscribers and has had 2 million views. I wouldn't be able to do that by myself. That was all built my my 16 year old daughter.

01:07:05.580 - 01:07:21.250

So she said, "Dad, you have to do YouTube." I said, "what is YouTube?" She said, "it's videos." I said, "who in their right mind is going to watch this?" And she said, "no, if you do this, people will watch it." I didn't believe her at all.

01:07:21.890 - 01:07:42.640

So I guess my hobby now is finding new ways to reach more people, and reaching young people who I will never meet. And talking to them in their language using their media of choice. And that's really been a rewarding thing.

01:07:42.860 - 01:07:56.240

Because I didn't know how to do any of this technically, but my kid does. So that's been a really good opportunity for me to expand my horizons on the teaching front. I like writing books.

01:07:57.150 - 01:08:13.540

I've written 13 books, my wife says that we should write a book that someone will buy. But what she really means is, I can't write a medical book next time, I have to write non medical book. And she wants me to write like a romance novel, I don't think

01:08:13.540 - 01:08:24.910

I could do that, or science fiction. That one I could do. So working on a little bit of an outline of how that could play out. So—but I'm not going to do any of those things until I retire.

01:08:26.060 - 01:08:45.220

However, my retirement plan is science fiction novelist, docent at the museum, and free tour, historical tours, for young people where I would go and take them around and show them a little bit about history, for free.

01:08:45.690 - 01:08:55.790

I think that sounds awesome. And please let me know if your science fiction book ever comes out, I'd [AL: There you go.] love to buy a copy. So those are all the questions I prepared for today.

01:08:55.790 - 01:09:14.050

But yeah, feel free to add anything else if you want. I would just say I'm so glad and honored and pleased to participate in your process. I think it's important that Asians have a place, and that recording it in this way, and by creating a library and a

01:09:14.050 - 01:09:32.630

legacy and doing it with a video, is a form of immortality. And that is kind of what we are striving for in academics is, you're trying to make a difference in this world. And preserving that–that idea and these conversations

01:09:33.960 - 01:09:47.740

with real people is an admirable goal. And one day people of the future are going to look at these things and say, wow, that was really fascinating. And I am so happy to be able to participate.

01:09:47.740 - 01:10:00.670

So I guess my closing would be thank you. Yeah, you're–you're so welcome. And just one last question that I just thought of, if your children are watching this, like far in the future, what–what would be like a message that you'd want to

01:10:00.670 - 01:10:10.430

pass on? Wow, that's really great because I told them I was doing this. And I said, and one of the great things about it is you probably will be able to look at this archive later.

01:10:10.580 - 01:10:28.360

I'm assuming that's true, yes? And so I will speak directly to–to you now, my children, if you're watching this, hopefully it is what I told you, that perhaps I am long gone. And I will tell you what I told our learners.

01:10:29.930 - 01:10:46.020

Remember me, make me proud, and pay it forward. And if you've done those three things, then I will be proud of you from the great beyond, past, present or future, and you'll have made your grandfather proud.

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So be the person your grandfather aspired for all of us to be, good Americans, good people. Make a difference. This is the message I would want to give to my children of the future.

01:11:05.000 - 01:11:16.500

Thank you so much for sharing, and they'll definitely be able to access it from like the website or just like whenever they want. Great, they'll love it. Thank you so much for being—for agreeing to be interviewed, and I hope you have a great

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rest of your week. Bye bye. Bye bye.