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So today is February 15, 2002. My name is Sumin Yoon. And I'm interviewing Andrew Harry Gee for Houston Asian American Archive. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to talk with me today.

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So my first question is, where and when were you born, and how’d you describe your identity? I was born in Houston, Texas, on the west side, and I think they said it was Rosewood hospital.

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I grew up in Beltway––what would become Beltway 8 and Westheimer Briar forest area. I guess I would identify my––as–– when I was growing up, they used to call it Eurasian, and I guess they haven't used that

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term quite so much lately, but, you know, mixed. My mom was from Germany, and my dad was from China. And I'm assuming, you lived, in Houston, for like your whole life? Yeah. I stayed there until I went to Rice, and

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then my parents were in the Memorial area and through law school, and then I got married and had a house and where I live right now, which is 610 Buffalo Speedway. So, always stayed in Houston.

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Yeah, and you just mentioned that you were married? Can you tell us like how you met your current partner? I met my wife at a mutual friend's party. And then we

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just, I guess, inched closer to each other and ended up getting married. So we've got three kids now. 16––or, no, wait––14, 11, and 11.

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And how long have you guys been married since, if you remember. AG: February, 2005 or 6? I–I–I always get the dates mixed up.

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Oh yeah, you’re good. Okay yeah, and you also mentioned that you come from like a biracial background or mixed background, so I just kind of wanted to ask you, like, how being biracial, and like raising a biracial family, like, how do you reconcile and preserve the virtues and ethics between like the East and

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the West when you were growing up? Like, are there any examples from your childhood that you want to talk about, or that you want to like pass on to your current children? Sure. So for us it's a matter of just

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trying to maintain the interesting and good traditions and habits of each of the sides or all the various heritages that we've got. So, you know, growing up as a kid, with my grandmother

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from my father's side was around so we would go visit with her and, you know, get the food and some exposure to the language, although not enough to learn really any of the language on the short visits. Around the house, my dad didn't speak Chinese.

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But since my mom was there, we got a little bit of German from her. Then when, you know, one of the things that we would do is every–every other year, while we were growing up, we would go to Germany for about a month.

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And that you-that was enough to get me to have a little bit of competency in German, so there was the language side mostly. For the German side, the occasional visits was

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also helpful in engendering that bit of culture appreciation. On the Chinese side, you know, we would tend to have a lot of the banquet dinners throughout the year.

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You know, of course, especially through the New Year's dinner, the–the Gee family puts on a quite elaborate nice gathering, so we were quite comfortable going to the banquet dinners and

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getting a bit of that culture that way. I guess we were a little bit before technology allowed broad access to––we grew up prior to the internet's establishment.

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So, you know, we would watch a program here or there on TV for each of the different cultures, but we didn't have direct access to Asian or European content. So it was just a little bit of what we could get at

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home, but I guess, for the most part, what we got was roughly average of, you know, American TV and American food and things like that, but when there were opportunities to be

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introduced to each of the different cultures, we've, you know, got a little bit of each of them. That's yeah, that's super cool that you really got to like experience both cultures, like pretty equally, like throughout your life.

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Yeah, so you like talked about like–like the greater Gee family having like a pretty big influence in your childhood, and how you experienced the Chinese culture. So can you talk to me more about like the greater Gee family or the clan, and their

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history and their role in Houston? So a lot of this is told or what I learned through various bits of history that the group fit together.

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So probably need to go back to some of those sorts of bits, but there's a handful of elders, including my grandfather that came in the early 19th centur-or 19th––he came over, I think, in the

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19 teens, settled in Houston probably in the 30s, I guess it was maybe the 20s. He went along with a handful of others, and they would––they were the ones that sent the letters or whatever that told

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others looking to have an opportunity that there was potential in Houston. You know, along––aside from California, I think a lot of them tried various points in the South, but Houston was one of the

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places where they aggregated early, more of the––as I understand it the larger towns where they aggregated, of course, there were still lots of individual grocery or different opportunities through the South, but my dad had a––or my grandfather had a

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restaurant in Houston, so people would come work for him for a little while, and then, you know, find their own opportunities. Often restaurants or grocery stores, in our area,

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I think in other areas eventually moved into cleaner and-or depending on where it was started that way. So from that group of initial people and the people that they brought over,

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there was a lot of prejudice and limitations, you know, going into the broader community at the time, and that's always been evolving. But early on, they had their own groups that they would circle

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around with. And, as my dad's tells it, they didn't have time to do anything else, because they always had to work, so, you know, there were rare exceptions that when they did get together was typically the annual New Year's––Lunar

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New Year celebration. I think with the next generation, some of them formed like Chinese Baptist Church, and that was kind of the Sunday excursion that a lot of them were allowed to do to, you know, okay,

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you–you don't have to work at the restaurant or the store today. You can go do that. But the other options outside of that were, I think, a little bit more limited until the families were able to move up

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over the years professionally or more financially secure towards more middle class that I guess most of us are today. So, the–the Gee Family Association would, you know, that's kind of the big core

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thing. They’re also well aligned with some of the other organizations, I can't remember what some of the other ones were, other than, in particular right now the CACA, Chinese American Citizens Alliance. So apparently, the Gee family and the CACA had a pretty big overlap between

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memberships, and they used to do a whole lot of activities together, and we still had been doing a common picnic up until COVID where we’d get together and do little raffles and cake walks and things

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like that. So the organization, you know, did keep the families together to a certain degree. I think, maybe 50 years ago, when the other options were more

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limited for Chinese, you–you–you only had a couple options, so you went and did that. I think nowadays, the options are so many. Just like so many other organizations, it's a challenge to try and keep

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the organization together, keep people interested, keep people participating. In the past, it was a little bit of a political thing to make sure that we got together and showed that, you know, we had some capability and we had the

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value and values. And, you know, there's still remnants echoing to that today through the Gee family, but you know, the participation’s a little bit thinner, it's been a few handful of people, I

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guess, it typically always has been a few handful of people that push it and show to, you know, those that are interested that family does have, you know,

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some recognition out there and to make sure that, you know, we are heard and accounted for in the political process, and, you know, the various going-on throughout the city. So, I think that's, you know, interesting and

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valuable, and, you know, we–we–we try and maintain that, but at the same time, you know, the particular need for the general population of the family, you know, we're not facing the same level of discrimination

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or limitations in the different various ways. So, then, the need to participate isn't quite as firsthand, you know, trying to deal with all of the kids activities, or this school or that job.

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You know, “I'm busy or tired,” or “I don't really know those people.” Probably a little bit more––a different balance, a different equation than it was 50 years ago, but we still get together. I think we had 20 or 30 tables of 10,

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even through COVID, and we'll see how many we can gather up together once we get started going again. That's really cool. I didn't know there was like a whole, like history behind the Gee Association like the

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impact and 1930s. And just to like clarify, is the Gee Family Association like only for those who are in like–part of the Gee clan by blood or is it more like inclusive of other Chinese immigrants in Houston?

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So anybody that has the Gee character or Chu (Zhu), as I believe it's pronounced in Mandarin, is in the family. The participation is primarily from the original families

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that came from South China, although there may be one or two family groups that are little bit further away that, you know, likes to par––or came together and participated here, but, you know, for the scholarship, anybody that has the family symbol is

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counted as the family. I know that there's a broader Gee family association across the country that I think also mainly stems from our particular village, but then I––when I went to the National Convention, it seemed

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that it also tied to a broader family association that might be more spread out through China even, but that was outside of my familiarity or knowledge. As far as other acceptance and whatever,

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you know, anybody that wants to participate with us we’ll make an honorary Gee, you know, I think one of the things that we used to do was for the dinner, we would invite the local politicians, and if they came to three or five straight dinners in a row, we would honor

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them as an honorary Gee and give them a little token gift and such. So, the participation is just, you know, trying to keep that idea alive, keep the spirit alive, so it’s-it's as inclusive as, you

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know, we can be to a certain degree. So, I think, you know, once upon a time, some of the organizations, you know, “Oh, you had to be born to the name, and then if you got married or out or something.” As long as I've been involved,

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you know, if you ever had Gee as part of your name or heritage, you know, you were accepted into our group. So, a lot of the ladies that were born Gee and got married, might still be participatory, or the

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spouse of a Gee, could certainly participate, you know, by marrying into the family. So we've always been a more inclusive––I think that's probably just as well to keep the, you know,

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fu-you know, whoever wants to help put on the––to the dinner, you know, we're happy to, you know, engage with them. So that's kind of been the philosophy as long as I've been familiar with it.

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When we went to the National Convention, or I went, you know, I guess it was 20 years ago now, you know, some of the other associations might have had a little bit more strict rules. I don't know if they had actual physical property that they were invested in

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that they might have had a little different reason for, you know, some of their rules, but since what we do is put on a annual dinner, put on a few social engagements and try and get everybody to come together, our philosophy has always been more inclusive.

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Sure. And my next question kind of like goes back into, like, the historical part that you mentioned. So you mentioned that like, your grandparents, your grandfather and father came to Houston early back in like the 30s and the early

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19s. So can you talk about like how their struggles and like experiences that they went through, influenced your life and your childhood, and if you can also give us like a short detail about your parents occupation, and their impact on you.

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So I can tell the story with the impact wasn't particularly great because it was more stuff that I learned kind of after the fact. You know, I guess they tried to shelter us from the realities of the world until we were old enough, and, you know, we learned it almost

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through textbook rather than through real life, so you know, I guess that was nice, but you know, a little bit yeah––you know, sometimes. We need to learn a few things a little bit more

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as–as they are and not, “Oh, I never realized that that was a problem before,” but so my dad, or I guess my grandfather came over, as far as I know in the 19 teens to California and he was a young kid as–as the story goes, I'm not entirely sure the dates, we never

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think somebody worked it out, but that's not something that sticks well in my head. So, you know, the story goes, he would stand on a apple crate or whatever box there was to wash dishes, went through various odd jobs in California

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and would seemingly move every few years to find a new job or opportunity or whatever it was. And then I think, by the 30s––so he'd probably been in his 20s or late 20s, early

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30s or so at that point. Well, I guess he must have been in his 20s at that point if he was really young in the teens. But you know he started establishing I think the restaurants

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as the business opportunity that allowed them to have a little bit more control and a little bit more financial possibilities than, you know, mere laborers. He got the letter from his mother that you needed to come back and get a wife,

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you know, went and did that and then my dad came over. I guess it was about 1940s. So, my grandfather got married back in China, but then had to do all the paperwork to get my parents over,

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which probably would have been, you know, simpler matter if you were from Northern Europe, but not being from Northern Europe, he did have to go through consulates. And then my parents, I think, or my dad and my grandmother went through Angel Island to get over here, right before the war in the early 40s, or

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1940, so started acting up in the Pacific. I think there was a blockade in Hong Kong when they were trying to get out and that they just barely got ahead of. So he grew up then 19––my dad

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1940s at a restaurant in Houston. Interestingly, to me, and I guess, you know, a lot of people that didn't know the history of Houston not well is that they were just on the edge of 45 or 59 in downtown, which probably preceding

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the mega freeways that we have right now. You know, the locations where they had their restaurants that since flipped over a time or two, and I think one place has a––just another couple storey building or whatever,

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and then next one there were––they had another restaurant, there's, you know, 15 or 35 story building, so, you know, they used to be in downtown before downtown was kind of what we know it as today. So, my grandfather had the restaurants

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which enabled him to be you know, middle class, maybe upper middle class for the day. By the end of his time in the US or right [unintelligible] by the time he was in the US, you know, by the end of his professional career before he

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retired, so, I think they were probably at the bottom end of middle class when my dad was growing up, and I think through focus on education and his ability, he was able to go to Rice, and then UT Law,

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and one more of those things that, you know, we learned about, I don't know if we were teenagers or in college by the time we learned it. You know, he–he graduated from UT Law, which I think even then was probably one of the better law schools so it was good that he was able to get in,

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but, you know, if you weren't Protestant White guy, they weren't hiring you. I think there might have been a few Jewish firms at the time, where they collected up, but there–there weren't Asian

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firms or fir—hirings. So my dad went out on his own and kind of worked his way or fell his way into immigration after trying, you know, just kind of whatever we'd go. So by the time we grew up and knew about

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it, he was operating with several different attorneys and was relatively successful. So, as I mentioned earlier on, you know, we–we didn't know about the challenges that he and, you know, most of the other people

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faced early on. But, you know, as we were getting into law in law school, and jobs afterwards, and, you know, the opportunities that were just, you know, available to us, the, you

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know––most of the firms were certainly hiring, you know, various minorities or women or whatever might not have been fully equal, but, you know, there were a fair number of opportunities available. I don't think there was––there–there wasn't the same diversity

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push that there is today, but there wasn't nearly the same exclusion that, you know, that he faced right there at the beginning of, you know, it even being possible, and, you know, I think

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he was probably in that first handful or dozen of minorities that just were able to get through law school and take the bar and stuff––maybe the women got through a little bit sooner, although in very limited numbers for a while, so,

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you know, we kind of learned that a little bit after the–the first wave that went through. So we learned about it a little bit afterwards, and, you know, as we were entering and dealing with it, but it wasn't presented to us,

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as you know, this big fight that we had to take on it was, you know, take your opportunity, and now that you kind of got–got into it––oh yeah, that used to not be as easy or, you know, used to be more challenging this, that or the other.

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So we learned about it, and I think it's important story for, you know, all of us to know, and pass along so that we understand what the limitations were so that, you know, going forward, you know, what would we

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rather they be, you know, what do we need to make sure that we're making those efforts for, you know, that we don't slide back or, you know, that we aren't causing, or, you know, creating unnecessary or improper limitations going forward.

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That's really interesting to hear because like in high school or like middle school or maybe even college in general, like, we don't really see like Asian Americans in like previous American history, even in like the 30s, and like, the Jim Crow era, so that's pretty inspiring that there was like, a lot of Asian Americans and we like your

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experience (?) to, you know, build–build their identities together in Houston. Yeah, so kind of, yeah, now that I kind of like know the history about like, the Gee family and how they're able to establish their roots in Houston. I think it's like pretty rare for like generations of like any one Asian family

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would like stay close together and like engage with one another through time. So what do you think contributed to like the growth and the expansion of the Gee clan in Houston? Well, actually, the–the–the two growths were the

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attraction of the initial few dozen families from South China, in the 40s and 50s I guess–I guess, a dozen or three, not super sure on the numbers, came prior

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to the war, you know, I guess, the initial push for people with railroads and what not. I think their immigration law changed. I can't remember if it was after World War Two, or if it was when Kennedy came

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around. I think, in World War Two there was––after World War Two, there was one loosening where a few extra people came over and then the next loosening came after Kennedy. Gee family would have mostly been here

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by the World War Two era, and then I guess the initial growth was just children. So the first two or three dozen families, we're still in that era where I think my family with three kids

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was on the smaller side. I think a lot of people had five––one of the Gee families was well known for having like nine or 10 kids.

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The––you know, all had a lot of different families. So I think that was kind of the bigger growth of the family at this point, the growth is more typical and organic, but because of the general

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wellbeing of the family members, the need to rally together is reduced. So trying to get some of the other people engaged in the organization,

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be familiar with the history and all of that, you know, the short stories get told a little bit thinner, a little bit less or not at all, and the pe-participation in the–the things, I think, you know, any group of people is gonna have a deal where some

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people just aren't interested. So, you know, we–we still count everybody a family member that we can put a name and address to, but there's always this percentage that doesn't participate, and people that have, you

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know, other obligations and things. So we're trying to hold on, at this point, keep–keep the time and familiarities together. So I don't know that, you know, we're no longer in a growth

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period, we're trying to be in a holding period, you know, I'm not the only one where we-we've married to a non-Chinese spouses, so, you know, trying to keep

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my children or one quarter Chinese, it's a little bit different for them. You know, I was half and, you know, sure, you can do half this and half that, but once you start getting into quarters and things, “Oh, yeah, that was that

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grandparent’s family or whatever.” It gets a little bit thinner and a little bit less direct. So, you know, this are all different challenges that we have, you know, I guess we're not in sort

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of old––not only China, but you know, 1900s or something where, you know, there were just certain villages, and there wasn't the great intermingling with the mega cities and everything else.

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This is this family, this is that family, and there's two others, and, you know, you just kind of circle around between, you know, limited groups. You know, so, with the diversification and all of the other things today, things are getting a little bit more thin, so there's all kinds of

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different challenges. And I know you just kind of like, touched on to this topic, but just to clarify, like in the future, do you see––like, how do you see the role of the Gee clan in the Houston Asian American society, do you kind of envision it––envision it as

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like, kind of like maintaining the Chinese community together and keeping everybody engaged and maintaining and keeping the members? I think our big––our challenges enough to try and keep our family loosely familiar and together.

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I think keeping our story and our history out there is a piece of the greater Asian story, since I guess, the 70s and 80s with the influx of more of the Northern Chinese

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you know, that's a-another new different story and piece to the tapestry, so I don't think we're going to dominate or direct or control it, but I think with our long ties we have a

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story that can continue to be told, that covers, you know, the, basically the beginning of Chinese Asians in the area and–and it goes forward.

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I think the more of our family members that can appreciate the direct tie to your lineage to the challenges from the early days, it's helpful on, you know, knowing where you come from, so you kind of have an idea of where

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to go to. So I think that's good, you know, certainly, a lot of us have connections that have been developed or given or handed to us inherited through our history that, you know, for all the same reasons, you know, we

00:36:17.320 - 00:36:37.700

like to continue and maintain going forward to promote, you know, the Asian culture, you know, the good things that, you know, we would like to see maintained to, you know, to ha-have a story of, you know,

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these––we're–we're part of the successful progress in the community. So, you know, telling the stories of, you know, what we've done and who we are, you know, we're not trying to take over or change any culture, we're trying

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to be a part of it and, you know, move it forward in a good way. You know, one of the stories that I learned being through the Gee family and through some of these historical bits with the story of Albert Gee, who’s a not too distant

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cousin as I understand it, and his role in facilitating the integration of city of Houston though the restaurant aspect of it that he was able to broker, you know, ties with politicians and activists and come to a

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resolution that avoided many of the other tragedies in many of the other cities. So, you know, I think that's a great story. You know, aside from, you know, my own family's story of, you know,

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set up the restaurant, bring some people over, train them up, get them able to do some other things, you know, have the son be able to go through law school, and become a successful attorney. You know, his children are all graduates

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and professionals and, you know, continue to move on. So. I think that's––those are the ideas that we would like to allow to help

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foster and persist along. Have our children understand the challenges that exist, that we felt that we've dealt with that, you know, we want to make sure we're not doing to others

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unnecessarily to help out the people that are facing the different challenges moving forward. Gotcha. And now I'm going to move on to like a different set of questions, and that's going to primarily focus on your college years.

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So in your survey, you mentioned you attended Rice University. So my first question is, and when and why did you choose to attend Rice University? I graduated in '97.

00:39:26.530 - 00:39:44.700

So I guess I got in in '93. Chose Rice as the premier school in Texas, my dad went there, and I had the grades and capability

00:39:44.700 - 00:40:04.580

and I was fortunate enough to be chosen to get in. I was not the personality that was interested in the big schools, so the UT and A&M option weren't terribly appealing to me. I was young.

00:40:04.580 - 00:40:21.810

I think the internet kind of came about when I was in high school, but I don't know if the universities had anything more than, hey, we exist in, you know, maybe a handful of web pages.

00:40:22.860 - 00:40:41.140

You know, it wasn't, I think––I don't think Google even existed when I was in high school. So you still had to go to the college fair and find a school that you're interested in, do the extra effort to go through the

00:40:41.140 - 00:40:55.380

recruiting process. So it–it was a lot more challenging, and I wasn't particularly inclined to going that far to look for other opportunities. But certainly Rice was a great fit for me.

00:40:55.900 - 00:41:14.020

So, you know, I–I didn’t bother worrying too much more about it. So I–I really enjoyed my time there. Sure, and what subjects were you initially interested in studying coming in?

00:41:14.020 - 00:41:33.380

And did that ever, like change over the years? Interestingly, I was always good at math. You know, there were couple of kids that were definitely better than I was, but you know, I was pretty advanced.

00:41:34.720 - 00:41:54.060

In general, and I think I’d done (?) precalculus or calculus in high school, but at the same time, I also knew that that wasn't what I was really interested in doing, so I applied to history and political science departments.

00:41:58.110 - 00:42:15.570

I can't–I can't remember exactly how the groupings called, but I ended up doing history and political science. The–the story that I often tell is, I confirmed that math wasn't going to be my thing moving on, so I took the

00:42:15.890 - 00:42:37.560

intro calculus class, and I think I did, you know, I was getting an A right up until the drop deadline, but then, when the drop deadline hit, I think we started moving towards trigonometric integrations and some of the other stuff, and I just could not get any of those

00:42:37.590 - 00:42:55.700

concepts, so I think I can't remember if I ended up getting through with like a b minus, or if I ended up switching it to pass-fail, but that was kind of the end of math, sci-or math as a–as a core thing for me.

00:42:56.220 - 00:43:08.250

So I was like, yeah, I'm good. I don't–I'm not in the same class as the other engineers. They're–they're brilliant. And that or brilliant in some other field where they can struggle along with a little

00:43:08.250 - 00:43:26.040

bit higher math to get to their things, but I did end up taking a lot of various introductory courses, I took introduction to education, actually, in same class as George P.

00:43:26.040 - 00:43:43.380

Bush. So that was kind of interesting. I thought maybe some different math would be okay, if I went to economics, but apparently, whatever assumptions they were making were not assumptions that made sense to me.

00:43:43.380 - 00:44:03.140

So we decided to part ways early on. One of the things that I tell working with the new aspiring students is if you have any i-interest in, you know, entrepreneur or business, you know, some accounting or something is good.

00:44:03.720 - 00:44:21.250

I don't remember exactly how to do the accounting, but as I'm going through my own business stuff, I'm no––wait, that doesn't sound right, or this needs to get double check here. So some of those old accounting things are still stuck in my brain if

00:44:21.250 - 00:44:33.710

not in a formal way. So that was pretty good. I got a Space Sciences minor, so weather, solar system, geology, I took those intro

00:44:34.020 - 00:44:48.980

courses. So that was kind of interesting to learn about it, a little bit of the different stuff. But none of that particularly grabbed me and

00:44:53.810 - 00:45:11.070

made me really want to do that full time. So the default path was kind of always well my dad's an immigration lawyer, I can always just get a job over there. But I think the intersection between

00:45:13.670 - 00:45:30.810

the–the logical aspect of it and the language was really just the thing that suited me well. So history, political science, you know, did those, but what do you do with that?

00:45:30.810 - 00:45:45.010

Not much. So go to law school. Really kind of the same thing there. You know, see what there was. I tried tax for a little while.

00:45:47.620 - 00:46:06.730

Those were some good professors––interesting things. But tax is going to start ending up being too much numbers and too much code memorization sorts of things. So, I was also, you know, I've got

00:46:06.770 - 00:46:23.860

this immigration thing here, which was the other heavy code, memorization thing. So in law, if you're going––you either learn a few general rules and local rules, but have a lot of

00:46:27.910 - 00:46:43.470

other—it's a little bit different. Where those pieces of law came together, if you're gonna’ be in the courtroom, or if you're gonna’ do cases or things like that, the–the different way of learning it.

00:46:44.470 - 00:47:05.170

But to––you have to know enough of the precedents to kind of put them together to, you know, make the framework of the basis, but law and tax, just get a book of rules that you got to memorize, and I got two of them at the same time, and I had to drop one of

00:47:05.170 - 00:47:22.700

them. I think when my dad was going to law, things were a lot simpler, and they hadn't quite gotten to the level of detail and complexity in each one of them, it was like, “Oh, yeah, you can do both.” And, but not to––not done, and certainly not today, there's just way too much for

00:47:23.790 - 00:47:42.250

I–I–I think only a few particularly exceptional people can keep that much stuff in their head and do well with it. And immigration today, you don't even practice immigration everything, you practice a subspecialty of immigration,

00:47:42.740 - 00:48:01.470

I do business immigration, there's people that do removals, and even within each of those groups, there's people that I only do this kind of business or this kind of application, or I do mostly these, you know, only one group of removal types at a time.

00:48:03.750 - 00:48:20.210

You know, obviously, y-you know, there's still situations where people could do things more broadly, but depending on, you know, your situation and your clients, they all expect you to be very precise on what you know. So with the level of detail that–that we've

00:48:22.400 - 00:48:39.960

taken on, it's more sub-specialization of that. So that was kind of my default. The––I tried my hand a little bit at trust and estates.

00:48:39.960 - 00:49:00.750

My dad had a classmate that I clerked with for a little while, but that didn't really link up with me either, so I kind of went back to immigration with my dad, and it's suited me quite well.

00:49:04.530 - 00:49:19.950

Yeah, I also––just like you talking about your college, like choosing like majors and stuff, like, I'm also in that process right now. It's like––it's confusing, but it's reassuring that like you can change multiple times and you'll still be okay.

00:49:22.310 - 00:49:42.370

Yeah, so like kind of going back to your time at Rice, do you––how do you remember the Asian American population at Rice at the time of enrollment? I don't know, but like, during my time here at Rice, and it's like, like majority––or not majority, but there's a significant Asian population on campus.

00:49:42.370 - 00:50:02.880

I was wondering if that was also true back in the time when you were also there. There are certainly a fair number of us, but I think it was probably more in the 15 to 25%. I think right now it's like 35 to almost 50 is probably

00:50:03.200 - 00:50:22.480

what my understanding is. So there were––I think just the same as Rice has been growing to not just be the city of Houston, it

00:50:22.990 - 00:50:43.860

might have gotten to the state of Texas with aspirations of being more national when I was there, I think nowadays, it's kind of stepping into both national and international at the same time. Where significant percentages of

00:50:45.450 - 00:51:04.230

the student body come from out of state, either throughout the US or internationally. I think when I was still there, I–I can't remember if we were like half Houston, or close to half Houston, and

00:51:05.810 - 00:51:22.760

then mostly Texas, and then a little bit of national, a little bit of international. So I think that was kind of what I generally remember, but yeah, I mean, there were enough Asians, we probably

00:51:24.370 - 00:51:44.070

did a few Lunar Festival sorts of things, or some Asian organizations. I think not knowing the challenges that we had to deal with and some of the other things going on, you know,

00:51:44.070 - 00:52:03.020

we didn't have the same historical challenge that probably the Black or African American group did. The Asian––the Latin group was smaller. I guess

00:52:03.520 - 00:52:21.600

they were more focused––I guess they were split in their focus between, you know, trying to make sure that they all stayed together and stayed academically sound, and then also dealing with the cultural challenges that university students like to take on,

00:52:22.660 - 00:52:39.320

but I think, at the time, for the Asian group, you know, there were enough of us, we were all formed or naturally in line to be academically sound, I guess, you know, obviously, there were exceptions,

00:52:42.650 - 00:53:04.100

but in general, you know, that was kind of more of the focus. I don't think at the time that there was the same perceived cultural challenge, I think the attitude of many of our families growing up was, “It's okay, you'll find your place, you'll have your

00:53:04.100 - 00:53:23.800

opportunity.” I–I think it's more recent that we're now understanding the story that, yeah, it was okay, but, you know, we don't quite have the full opportunity. So we have to be aware of what the situation is, so that we

00:53:24.060 - 00:53:44.270

do have the full options and opportunities and full recognitions that, you know, we ought to be able to work towards. So, you know, I think there–there were certainly organizations out

00:53:44.270 - 00:54:01.660

there that were pushing for that sort of thing, but I think it was less appreciated as a need or a significant. A lot more just kind of the slightly more naive, “Yeah, just

00:54:01.990 - 00:54:22.290

do your job, and you'll be alright.” I think now we understand a little bit more that “Yeah, do your job, you'll get some stuff,” but, you know, be aware that these challenges and biases exists so that you can, you know, get

00:54:22.820 - 00:54:44.060

the full opportunity or the full, whatever and, you know, okay, is okay, but I think if you want it, you can go get full–full set. So, now, kind of like moving on to like next set of question,

00:54:44.730 - 00:55:01.930

especially as your career as an attorney. I know you kind of like touched on how you decided to pursue your education in law, in the college section, but I just kind of wanted to ask you, when did you like first start working for Gee & Zhang, and can

00:55:02.640 - 00:55:23.940

you talk more about the work that you do now? So de–depending on how far back you want to go I––with the, as a kid, I got to go to the office––had to go to the office and, okay, help hole punch this or refill the staples or do whatever.

00:55:25.920 - 00:55:42.920

I–I pretty much done every single job that there is in the office. I like to point out to everybody there that aside from my dad, and I'm not sure exactly how much he did, I'm the only one in the place that ever filled out the forms on a typewriter and actually have to explain to people how some of the old

00:55:42.920 - 00:55:56.310

technology worked. So I did summer stuff a little bit here and there, I did a lot of other things outside of the firm as––or not a lot.

00:55:56.310 - 00:56:14.470

I did a handful of other jobs as well, but when I did those sorts of things I did, you know, as law was becoming more in tune, I started learning more about the cases in the summer and handling that.

00:56:14.530 - 00:56:32.370

Doing more of the law, went through the law clerk and then joined up. It was Harry Gee & Associates for 40 something years, and I think only, maybe––I don't know if it's even been 10 years that we've partnered with one of our associates, so

00:56:32.670 - 00:56:51.220

it’s become Gee & Zhang. So, you know, once I passed the bar, I moved back to the firm. Instead of, you know, doing a little bit of clerk time at a different office, get a little–little bit of

00:56:51.220 - 00:57:03.470

broad experience, I should have done a little bit more of that during law school than I did, but I stayed with the firm and worked in different aspects of it. So

00:57:08.520 - 00:57:32.220

now I handle a little bit more management than cases, although I still keep enough cases to maintain my knowledge and understanding. And with the law firm led by Chinese American partners, I'm assuming you have been involved in like, high number of like immigration services for

00:57:32.270 - 00:57:51.770

clients from China, more than other firms. So what challenges have you kind of like encountered over the years, or changes and what are some–– So, interestingly, we

00:57:51.770 - 00:58:13.800

didn't have an exceptional amount of Chinese based clients until my partner came on, Daniel Zhang. His background is from Beijing, and he went to, as I understand it, one of the higher

00:58:13.970 - 00:58:31.540

level geology universities in China, then to switch over to US, and through that background, he's been able to get a whole lot of the Chinese, particularly energy companies.

00:58:32.600 - 00:58:49.940

Our strong clientele actually been mostly European energy companies. So that's, fortunately my bag (?) has been pretty successful, and that's where the better money and the better clients have traditionally been is in the energy

00:58:49.940 - 00:59:09.800

business. So we actually had most of our clients core working off of Europe, but certainly, we always had a number of clients from Asia and Latin America as well, but the big bulk of it was from

00:59:10.360 - 00:59:30.270

Europe. But towards the question of how has immigration with Asia, it's–it’s always been kind of a known thing that if you're coming from Northern Europe, your application’s just gonna’ be a little bit easier than somewhere

00:59:30.270 - 00:59:48.430

else. Nothing so substantial that, you know, they're gonna’ look particularly different, but the situations where the government comes back and asks more questions. If–if you don't fit the, you know,

00:59:49.480 - 01:00:06.510

the general profile, they're gonna’ have a lot more situations where they'll ask about things, so, you know, th-that was kind of one of the deals. The movement of the

01:00:06.970 - 01:00:27.720

Asian group has come primarily through the H-Visas, so––which is the professional degreed route. So, if you go through university, in order to get a job in the US, you have to go––you have to show that

01:00:27.720 - 01:00:48.660

you're––you’ve got a degree equivalent, and that the position requires the degree and a few other little details, but through that option, a lot of the Asian immigrants came over as the qualified professionals, and particularly when I

01:00:48.660 - 01:01:09.320

started in the 2000s, it was tons and tons of Chinese and engineers. We switched also to––India's another big hub of the participants in that category, so they would qualify based

01:01:09.320 - 01:01:25.870

on having their foreign degree come over here or the US degree, and then it evolved. The advantage was for individuals that had US master's degrees, so they would stay more school and get the next degree, and

01:01:26.500 - 01:01:40.690

then they would be able to come over. So those–those were the–the sort of the technical evolution of the immigration, set off a lot of numbers.

01:01:43.600 - 01:02:00.950

The other option’s through family, and so once a few people have been here, then they sponsor their family, their quotas from each of the different countries of birth. China and India are maxed out, so even through the

01:02:01.050 - 01:02:18.200

employment option, there's a long delay between permanently being eligible to come over. If you're from China, from India. I think, more recently, in the last five or 10

01:02:18.510 - 01:02:37.400

years, instead of just the typical, you know, let's ask a few more questions and be sure about a few more things. I think the political situation with China in the US has gotten particularly fractured and almost every

01:02:37.670 - 01:02:53.700

single one of the Chinese new companies that we're doing the papers for faces a whole hill of new questions and problems. I think the Trump administration

01:02:54.130 - 01:03:12.750

really started that off, and I think that's just been a political, you know, thing that just hasn't been corrected afterwards and normalized, so it will continue to be a challenge. But, you know, I think

01:03:14.510 - 01:03:31.060

with Trump, everything was terrible and hard in immigration. It was just incrementally more so with China than, you know, the average other place. So I think now under Biden, everything's gotten a little bit better, and so

01:03:32.020 - 01:03:49.170

things are still incrementally more challenging with China, but you know, not as bad as it had been in the past. So that's, you know, kind of it. We've got one company that got,

01:03:50.880 - 01:04:08.490

you know, a particular interview the whole COVID situation’s been crazy, so––”Oh, well, you don't have these things?” “Well it’s caus’ of COVID, we don't have these things.” “Well, you don't have them so you can get this next permit.” So i-it's been an interesting

01:04:09.000 - 01:04:28.860

challenge trying to organize things in both ways that they technically qualify and make a story that's understandable and acceptable, so that's kind of what we're facing right now.

01:04:32.510 - 01:04:45.960

Yeah, I was––that was about––that was like my next question, like how the political climate, especially in the last few years have impacted immigration, but it seems like the effects are still ongoing today. Even now.

01:04:48.390 - 01:05:04.830

So like, my next question that pertains to your career is like, did you have any like really like mentors or people that you looked up to during their training or like your career, and where do you kind of see yourself as an attorney in the next five or 10 years?

01:05:10.830 - 01:05:30.910

Obviously my dad has been the biggest mentor and example for me. He said he's had a very well-respected firm that we go around, “Oh, Harry Gee,” you know, “you did a lot of

01:05:30.910 - 01:05:51.290

good things.” Or he helped me out with this or he showed the way for that, so that's been good and helpful, but certainly not to say that that was exclusive only on the immigration lawyers, I think there’s–there's two

01:05:51.590 - 01:06:08.650

components, and I think up until I started, it was, there was always plenty more work than there were immigration lawyers, which kind of changed when I got around. Now it's another commodity, rather than an und-unserved

01:06:09.530 - 01:06:28.300

niche. But it was a lot, very colloquial, small group, where a lot of the attorneys knew each other, but I guess that's probably also the case for so many other fields of law and that have just seen such explosions and numbers lately.

01:06:28.940 - 01:06:44.970

In my dad’s time, you know, there were only a few 100 immigration lawyers, so you kind of knew who all the other people were, and I think now there's 10s of 1000s. So, “Oh, do you know this guy?” “Maybe, maybe, probably

01:06:45.050 - 01:07:02.010

not.” But the immigration lawyers, there's a fair degree of us against the government because, you know, that's the common enemy. So in that sense, we're not fighting amongst ourselves the same way as some of the other

01:07:02.010 - 01:07:21.240

attorneys are. So that's been pretty colloquial. So hear some stories, get some other things from some of the other attorneys from different conferences, see–see what people are doing. So that's that, but

01:07:21.850 - 01:07:41.180

I guess I haven't been particularly social, in my things, you know, I go out and do a few things, but, you know, not to the degree that some of the other––my dad, I mean, that's one of the great things that he was able to do is he was always able to go out and get–get–get known get

01:07:41.180 - 01:07:55.450

seen, participate. That's not my strong suit, I–I do kind of what I think I have to do. That's what he likes to do. So he's constantly doing it even still today.

01:07:55.960 - 01:08:13.170

And I don't see myself continuing on as long as he has. I do actually plan on retiring at some point. Probably another five or 10 years, see how long my partner,

01:08:14.850 - 01:08:34.590

you know, is interested in going forward. And then see how things are. As kind of the operating partner of the firm, I spend half my time making sure that the office is running efficiently

01:08:34.590 - 01:08:52.570

and taking care of the non-legal aspects of it so that they can handle all the legal aspects of it. So in that sense, kind of transferable to, you know, other areas as well.

01:08:53.560 - 01:09:13.480

I wouldn't––I think, potentially 10-20 years from now, I'll probably retire and do something more of like what my sisters do, which is run or be an important part of a nonprofit, do something

01:09:15.010 - 01:09:33.050

has a little different pressures and hopefully a little less, day to day significant pressures and en-enjoy things a little bit––interactions––help people a little bit more directly. Like one of the good things about immigration is that, you know, at the end of

01:09:33.110 - 01:09:51.060

the day, it's packaged for an individual to come. Either be with their family or to work in the United States is 98% of what we do. So, you know, when you––when that gets accomplished, you can feel good that you know you've helped

01:09:51.060 - 01:10:08.130

somebody move along, you know, for some of the companies, it's just papers for this person. You can invest how much you want––some of the companies, or some of the situations are a little bit more personal because you have to really work on that

01:10:08.130 - 01:10:23.170

individual to develop what their skill––you know, what are they bringing, what's their qualification, and you get to learn and know about them a little bit more. So the personal interaction is nice.

01:10:25.640 - 01:10:45.050

I think with the modernization of things, we do a little bit more numbers and a little more churning than we used to. So I think the amount of cases where we are one on one, working with individuals is maybe a little

01:10:45.260 - 01:11:05.920

bit less, but we still get to do that it's, you know, not tax or something else where it's so removed from personal interactions, so I like that and I can kind of see myself transitioning to something else. The, you know, little

01:11:05.920 - 01:11:21.120

more day to day and I'm, you know, not trying to get a bunch of money from somebody to do it. Right. So my next sets of question is going to focus on like your community involvement.

01:11:21.790 - 01:11:35.330

I noticed that in your resume, you list some various (?) interesting community organizations that you were a part of, so like to start off with, can you tell us more about like, what the Houston Dragon Boat Festival is and your role as like the team coordinator?

01:11:37.140 - 01:11:55.660

So that was one of the first things I did for a handful of years, when I was just working. It’s still going on today, I haven't gotten a chance to get back particularly with COVID, very–very recently. So it was a number of my

01:11:55.790 - 01:12:15.030

contemporaries that apparently I circled around with slightly when I would trail my dad to his social engagements back in the day, and then we'd grown up.

01:12:15.670 - 01:12:30.090

So the Dragon Boat is the traditional Chinese boat, it's more of a celebratory thing than a you know, functional thing. I think it's the idea is mostly about teamwork.

01:12:30.660 - 01:12:50.710

I don't know exactly the story back in China, but the way we took over it in the US is you get this basically giant canoe that fits 20 people in it, and try and get them to all ride together. And you'll do you know, 200 yards sprint

01:12:51.250 - 01:13:07.040

or something like that. So you know, see who can go the fastest and then you get a hand [unintelligible]. I think we had about a dozen teams or so going maybe a dozen and a half when I was doing it.

01:13:08.210 - 01:13:24.230

And we were doing it downtown, which was then just getting redeveloped so that it wasn't some crummy park. They just finally built a nice, nice ish park downtown.

01:13:24.230 - 01:13:40.380

They're still trying to clean up a few of the other things. Theythey didn't have the Buffalo Bayou redevelopment west of downtown that they–they had right when I was finishing my time with the dragon boat.

01:13:42.480 - 01:13:58.510

So you would go and it was a celebration of the Chinese cultural aspect of it. So you know, the race would be in conjunction with a festival downtown and they have 30 tents or so and I have

01:13:58.820 - 01:14:17.400

you know, performers that would go throughout the festival of all manner of Asian groups. I think Hawaii was on the one hand Thailand and North Korea or not North Korea, Korea,

01:14:18.560 - 01:14:39.250

South Korea, I presume, drums so they had a whole bunch of different participations for the festival so it's centered around the Dragon Boat race, which I think is more southern China but the festival is open to anything Asian

01:14:40.300 - 01:14:56.470

really. So we get team sponsored and have three or five practices so that when you got out there to race, it was semi coordinated and organized.

01:14:57.030 - 01:15:16.770

I think as I was finishing up my time there they were getting some of the full year round teams started. And they would do their practices, I guess, weekly, or every other week, throughout the year and go to a couple of the

01:15:18.670 - 01:15:38.520

other festivals that were around. So my dad, when they were just getting started, he, you know, had the company sponsor a boat as a, as a team building exercise, and you know, to support the Asian

01:15:39.170 - 01:15:53.150

culture and community. And apparently, I had too many good ideas for them. So they said, “Well, you need to be the coordinator.” So I ended up joining them. Then did that for a few years.

01:15:55.500 - 01:16:13.960

Interestingly, I crossed paths with my wife before I officially met her at the Dragon Boat Festival. And a couple years later, she's like, “Oh, you were the guy that was ordered to organizing it.” Like, “Yeah, like, I got pulled in

01:16:13.960 - 01:16:34.020

to do that for a substitute for one time for the captain's organizing few things.” Interesting. Interesting, little side note. That's great. So did you say you guys like built the

01:16:35.100 - 01:16:50.580

boat? Or was like a boat you guys get or was it built? They're custom built, I think when we were there, we were still renting the boats that they would ship, the one organization would ship around to put on the different festivals.

01:16:51.120 - 01:17:07.460

And then during my time there, they were able to be successful enough to buy a handful of boats, which allowed them to not have to rent and then, you know, made a few other things possible and feasible. So but yeah, they're not substantial earn—you

01:17:08.500 - 01:17:23.990

know, they were pretty substantial investments. And then, you know, what do you do with a giant boat? You have to haul it around and eventually try and get a dock and a boathouse built so that you can minimize some of that

01:17:25.740 - 01:17:40.930

stuff. Does the Dragon Boat Festival still continue on today? I believe it does. It was still going a couple years earlier, prior to COVID. I haven't kept up with it so much to know exactly what the current state

01:17:40.930 - 01:17:57.870

is, I think it's always some kid activity, the gymnastics meet or something else when it comes around. I haven't seen it more recently. But as far as I know, it still goes on.

01:17:57.960 - 01:18:12.190

And my next question is, what is your role in the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo, you mentioned that you serve the member of the International Committee, and the Corporate Development Committee? So,

01:18:15.850 - 01:18:36.000

Rodeo’s pretty much a volunteer organization, they have a limited hired full time staff that manages show business, and they have certain facilities, people through

01:18:37.630 - 01:18:52.170

NRG that handle the core pieces of what they do, but for the most part, it's volunteer run. So the people that take your ticket at the door, the people that sell you the ticket, the people that do most

01:18:53.040 - 01:19:06.420

80-90% of everything is going to be a volunteer of some sort. So I joined the International Committee. And so I guess the way that this came about was the rodeo was making their push into the Asian community.

01:19:06.420 - 01:19:28.490

And they knew the Asian Chamber of Commerce director at the time, about 10 years ago now, and she was interested in participating in the rodeo. So I think one of the

01:19:29.050 - 01:19:46.860

ideas is as an Asian community, the Rodeo’s the big festival that goes on in the city of Houston, and, you know, a handful of people are interested in making sure that the Asian people have a little bit of a piece of it.

01:19:47.690 - 01:20:04.910

You know, part of the problem is, is what's our role in western American’s development and this historical story is, you know, our role was only just to build the railroad tracks. I think Black ranchers

01:20:08.600 - 01:20:26.940

are—they're not really told in the general story of the West, but they existed. I, you know, I want to say from the beginning, or very near the beginning, just in a smaller role that they were kind of limited to, you know, they have their

01:20:27.040 - 01:20:44.910

place, and of course, Latin America. They've–they've been in the West, you know, since Columbus, really, you know, depending on how you want to think about it, the missions and such. So, you know, they certainly have their tie to

01:20:45.350 - 01:21:04.480

western American development, so they have their piece, but the Asians have, you know, what's our role, but, you know, we still want to have some visibility and participation in the, you know, the biggest

01:21:04.700 - 01:21:19.100

festival in Houston, really. So, you know, they made a push to try and get a few more Asian members in the Rodeo community. So I share that fine, my wife loves going to all of the

01:21:19.100 - 01:21:33.210

concerts and such. So, you know, I put my hand up and did it. So, you know, what, can what committee do you want to be part of, I don't know, what is there?

01:21:34.240 - 01:21:53.460

I think they put me on international, because of my law, and I guess my—I'm not just a white guy, sort of thing. So entertain some of our guests. Occasionally, we'll get some guests from Asia, or somewhere else looking to buy some

01:21:53.620 - 01:22:06.200

cows in their breed. But I think in the five years that I've been doing that, I haven't been closely put in contact with that. But, um, you know, in case it does come up, you know, I actually do

01:22:06.320 - 01:22:23.350

have a little bit of Spanish capability, a little bit of German capability. So you know, depending on where the guests come from, if that comes up, I can help out a little bit more than the people that have no–no language capability.

01:22:25.810 - 01:22:45.680

So what we do is, for the first week of the Rodeo, we particularly host the international buyers so that when they come, they've got a place that they can relax at and not have to make a trip back out to the

01:22:45.790 - 01:23:04.050

hotel. So, you know, they might have an auction in the middle of the day, but then, you know, instead of having to go to the hotel, you know, they can hang out at our place, you know, we'll facilitate some trips. And particularly, what we love to do is to send them to the shopping malls,

01:23:05.090 - 01:23:21.070

and things help to get them to and from the airport. And have a couple other different activities that we host them for. You know, just like everywhere else in the Rodeo, make sure that they

01:23:22.600 - 01:23:41.190

have a good time. So have a bar for them to get some drinks, you know, this, alright, have a few drinks, now go buy a lot of stuff at the auction. You just got finished buying a bunch of stuff, come here, relax, get a little bit of food and

01:23:41.190 - 01:23:57.800

then go have some fun somewhere else. So that's primarily what we try and do. You know, of course, even if you're not a cow buyer, if you're international and just need help speaking with some

01:23:57.830 - 01:24:15.000

language or something else, you know, we're available for that as well. But it's not kind of, it's more ancillary than primary focus for what we do. Yeah, that's pretty cool. I didn't know the Livestock Show and Rodeo.

01:24:15.080 - 01:24:33.570

I actually saw cattle and stuff and they're like, people coming from all around the world. It's kind of crazy to Texas. So to close off the interview, my last two questions are that where do you kind of see the Asian American community in Houston going in the

01:24:33.570 - 01:24:50.610

future? And what do you think is the best way to address the ongoing racial injustice or hate crimes that have risen against Asian Americans? Well, I think, generally,

01:24:50.930 - 01:25:18.940

you know, we want to continue the track that we're on, which is our strength is kind of then being, you know, not exactly, but kind of towards that model minority goal. But, you know, doing the good pieces

01:25:18.940 - 01:25:39.340

of that, but at the same time, knowing the history, knowing the situation, and speaking up for ourselves to get the full opportunities. You know, not everybody's interested in being the owner and manager or whatever.

01:25:39.340 - 01:25:58.100

But a lot of people that are just happy being, you know, the engineer or being, you know, the steady component piece of it. But, you know, make sure that your steady component piece of it is treated

01:25:58.160 - 01:26:17.200

fairly to all the other people that are in a similar situation. I think the owners and the managers and the leaders, you know, were more aware of making that push that getting the word out that, you know, there does need to be the general fairness and the general

01:26:20.400 - 01:26:43.050

appreciation, you know, counterbalance some of the crazy nonsense out there, you know, that we're all spies from China or something. So it's a balance, take care of your stuff, and make sure your core pieces are taken care of, I think

01:26:43.210 - 01:27:01.320

the general opportunities are reasonably there for most everything that we want to do, but at the same time, maybe make sure that–that we aren't being limited. “Oh, well, they're just the Asian group, they're not going to really bring the

01:27:01.320 - 01:27:17.950

numbers. So you know, we only need to do so much for them.” But okay, yeah, our numbers are going to, you know, reaches a point of significance, or they are at a point of significance. So, you know, we deserve, you know, our share now,

01:27:19.770 - 01:27:39.530

you know. Make sure that, you know, do we have an opportunity to, you know, be represented on this board, that, you know, get the people that have the money to go out there and do things. So, you know, point out when there are

01:27:40.180 - 01:27:59.940

the, the good things that we do, that we do contribute to counteract some of the wildly inaccurate or, you know, limiting stereotype sorts of ideas and statements out there.

01:28:00.170 - 01:28:18.150

So yeah, so it's a lot easier to do all of those things. You know, when you're in a professional position, you know, make sure that the kids strive to achieve as much as they're interested

01:28:18.950 - 01:28:35.120

in, you know, not unnecessarily forced into everything, but make sure that they understand the opportunities that are out there. And then you know, what's available. You can do a whole lot more things if you're the manager or the boss than if you're

01:28:35.360 - 01:28:52.060

just some guy somewhere. But then also make sure that all the people understand and have heard the different stories so that they know the backgrounds and limitations, so that they know to ask for

01:28:52.700 - 01:29:14.790

a full set of opportunities. Gotcha, so that was my last question for the interview. Is there anything else that you would like to add before I pause the recording? No, I think that's mostly it.

01:29:14.790 - 01:29:25.760

All right. Sounds good. Well, thank you for interviewing with me today. I'm going to pause the recording now.