00:00:00.430 - 00:00:15.109

Well, we were just getting acquit here, Doctor Dessler on uh what uh uh sort of thing we're looking for in these interviews. Uh uh If you don't mind, I'd like to start out talking about. Um Well, how long have you been at rise and what your

00:00:15.119 - 00:00:33.819

aspirations are for Rice? And then we'll talk about how the uh how the presidential selection crisis uh meshed into these, these ideas. OK. Uh Let's see, I came to Rice about six years ago. Uh Just one year after President Pitzer came and I came to start

00:00:33.830 - 00:00:53.139

Space Science Department. So we got it uh going as a graduate department and my aspirations were pretty clearly aimed toward graduate education. But uh I think during the time I've been here, the, I believe now I have to check this, but I believe the number of

00:00:53.150 - 00:01:12.239

phd S or ice graduates has tripled in the six years. In the last couple of years, the Space Science Department has graduated 10% of the total phd S put out by Rice University. So we played a great role in and uh helping rise uh into a

00:01:12.250 - 00:01:34.910

bigger area of graduate education, which is contrasted to the uh earlier emphasis on undergraduate education, excellent undergraduate education. We tried to make it a really excellent graduate school too, which it still isn't, I don't think. Um, but we've made real great strides in that direction and

00:01:34.919 - 00:01:54.339

of course, I, and Pitzer was really tremendous and he's the one who really gave the great emphasis in this direction. And I was hoping that we'd have a president who would continue something that wouldn't damage the graduate education. Because I believe that without a good graduate

00:01:54.349 - 00:02:15.020

program, the undergraduate education will also suffer the, the schools that try, like Reed college, which tend to emphasize only undergraduate education, uh, end up really hurting there too. It's very hard to do the students that come out of that in the sciences particularly aren't very well

00:02:15.179 - 00:02:29.449

equipped to go on to graduate school. This is Reed College in Portland, Oregon. Yeah. In other words, a four year school that doesn't have a graduate department is sort of like a prep school. It's just sort of cut off from the, yeah, because the teachers aren't

00:02:29.460 - 00:02:46.074

active in research and it uh seems to be getting just uh, the hard way to do it, the better way to do it is to have a good graduate program and have these people that do the graduate research and education also involve an undergraduate education. And

00:02:46.085 - 00:03:06.550

I think you get a better deal both undergraduate education and of course you have the added emphasis of the phd production and the Houston community needs that very badly because there's no uh really good. Like the Dallas Fort Worth area has almost no graduate education in

00:03:06.559 - 00:03:28.070

the natural sciences. And uh uh in the Houston area, only the University of Houston and theirs isn't very big, it's pretty small. So the use and community looks to rise for this area, uh which I think will provide the leaders for industrial development later. I mean,

00:03:28.080 - 00:03:46.419

they don't all go into research and teaching. If they go into industry, this will provide use of the leadership in this area and our society is becoming more technologically oriented. Uh And I think even the social problems are gonna be solved by technology because technology is

00:03:46.429 - 00:04:03.029

ultimately the source of all the problems. I mean, didn't have everything we had like transportation and industry, we wouldn't have urban crowding and pollution and all and everything that goes with it. I think the solutions have to come out of technology and the phd S are

00:04:03.039 - 00:04:28.850

the best source of people to solve these problems. I think. So that was, that's the basis of my aspirations. And the uh selection of uh Masterson was something of a surprise. Uh However, I thought at the time that if he would uh huh OK, if he

00:04:28.859 - 00:04:52.489

would restrict his attention to working with the board on long range uh goals and fundraising, and there were people internal to the university who would uh uh work with the faculty and I would split the job as done by, with many universities or someone who represents

00:04:52.540 - 00:05:13.100

the university to the outside. And he's almost always the president. Uh, and then someone who represents the university of the inside and would be a chancellor or an academic vice president. It looked like it could well work. Uh But the, uh, the fact that the, I'm

00:05:13.109 - 00:05:33.220

gonna go through this now in historical or OK, uh the fact that the faculty uh student selection committee or whatever it's called officially hadn't been consulted, obviously raised a lot of resentment. And besides that, uh the fact that Masterson was unpopular with a few of the

00:05:33.230 - 00:05:55.890

faculty who knew him before, uh uh he left, uh added to this. Now, I had met him and talked to him a few times before he left and had no bad impression at all. And in fact, at one point, um probably three or four years ago,

00:05:56.029 - 00:06:16.440

we were talking about, uh the problem that President Pitzer was having at the time with uh faculty loyalty. And we went on Sunday afternoon, the two of us Masters and I to biter's house to talk to him about some ideas we have about the problem. So

00:06:16.450 - 00:06:36.779

it was very pleasant and he struck me as quite a capable, smart, perceptive guy. Uh What I did when I heard about the appointment was just before the faculty meeting, like 30 minutes before or 45 minutes before the meeting. This would be, what time is the

00:06:36.790 - 00:07:02.380

meeting? Four o'clock? So this would be around 315 Friday, February 21. Uh, I called him up in Chattanooga to let him know there was a great deal of resentment developing, there could be trouble. And did he really want to go ahead with this procedure? Which seemed

00:07:02.390 - 00:07:19.600

to me to be developing a needless amount of trouble when you say procedure. Do you mean the press conference on Saturday? No, I mean, the, the fact that it would just be announced to the faculty without having any input from the faculty committee, which uh they

00:07:19.609 - 00:07:36.329

had understood they were going to be consulted and it would have been either better to never set up a committee or to uh uh consult them once they set it up and said they were gonna consult it. So he said that, uh and he had a

00:07:36.339 - 00:07:53.220

very reasonable reply. Uh It was that he had entered into this agreement in good faith with the board and we would just have to uh hope people would be reasonable and ride it out and he would be in town tomorrow and uh talk to everybody and

00:07:53.230 - 00:08:13.799

he felt he could handle it. It seemed reasonable. And uh my feeling on the vote was that it wasn't all that bad that it went against him, of course, but not to the extent that he couldn't have reversed it. Um I don't know if, um, you

00:08:13.809 - 00:08:30.549

read the story when Pitzer went to Stanford, it was almost exactly the same story. They had announced the selection of the president without consulting a committee that had been set up. Uh, but Pitzer calmed everybody down and settled everything and won their support by his statements.

00:08:31.790 - 00:08:51.950

Um, so I talk to him again that evening and, uh, on the phone and told him that it went badly but not as badly as I thought it might. And I thought that if he came in and said the right things and had, there was some

00:08:52.320 - 00:09:09.419

conciliatory statements or some healing gestures, he could settle everything because most of the faculty had to be considered neutral. And there were a few that were pro and a few that were con, but most of them, uh, couldn't at that point have been considered very polarized,

00:09:10.479 - 00:09:28.400

uh, when he came on campus Saturday morning. Um, I didn't go in the, I wasn't in the March or didn't hear him speak, but I heard about it and it didn't sound like he did much good there. Then following the press conference, he met with some

00:09:28.409 - 00:09:56.030

students in the afternoon and I can't remember why. Oh, and I should add that I had had some conversations mainly with Debbie Salzburg, uh, earlier. In fact, it was a conversation with Salzburg earlier in the afternoon that inspired the phone conversation with Masterson in Chattanooga. All

00:09:56.039 - 00:10:19.690

right now, um, for some reason, that. I can't remember. We were inspired to go down and talk to him again. I can't remember what we hoped to accomplish between. No, no, this was about five o'clock in the afternoon. He spent all afternoon with the students and

00:10:19.700 - 00:10:38.320

it came up and we were in Dick Deanie's office. Ok? And uh it was just before he went out to dinner with some board members and then he's gonna go back and see the students. Ok. Now, at that time, oh, I know why we went to

00:10:38.330 - 00:10:53.710

see him. We went, I believe, uh, uh, let's see. Well, I guess I'll have another restriction that Salzburg ought to, I guess, has agreed to come in and talk. I talk to you. I haven't seen his name on the list but I, uh, he certainly, he's

00:10:53.719 - 00:11:15.909

gone for the summer. Now, he won't be back until school starts. But, uh, make a note that this should also wait until he's, uh, had a chance to tell his story. But, uh, we were interested in healing a growing rift on, uh, the presidential appointment. But

00:11:15.919 - 00:11:32.539

my feeling was it would be very damaging for the university to get in a big knockdown, drag out fight. And, uh, we could arrange if, uh, he had talents that could be put to good use. We could arrange if he was lacking in certain talents, we

00:11:32.549 - 00:11:49.719

could certainly arrange to, uh, uh, and he would be perceptive enough to recognize it. Uh, again, this time, it was, he was very impressive, completely reasonable. As far as I was concerned, said, all the right things he talked with the students. He recognized just what the

00:11:49.729 - 00:12:07.780

position was the board had put him in. And uh uh made the point that this was a time when he had, he was gonna tell the board that he had to uh appear before the student faculty committee. I'm not, I'm using a different name every time.

00:12:07.789 - 00:12:28.020

I hope there's an official name that gets put in the transcript uh that he would appear before them and give his views on the presidency and his aspirations for rice and just what he intended to do and let them decide whether or not he was acceptable.

00:12:29.359 - 00:12:51.539

And our feeling was that he would probably uh have squeaked by that. It would have been a close vote, but he would have gotten by the vote was very close. And uh um he saw it very, very clearly. I thought exactly the position he was in.

00:12:51.549 - 00:13:09.880

I don't wanna stress this point but, and he did a lot of the most of the talking. So it very clearly and was very perceptive about the situation he was getting in it wa it wasn't, I mean, none of this subsequent development should have been a

00:13:09.890 - 00:13:31.539

surprise to him. Um then later on, and I don't remember exactly when this was well, yes, this was late that night and I don't know what time? But later in the evening, evidently after he talked to some board members had dinner with him, they apparently told

00:13:31.549 - 00:13:54.659

him that he couldn't meet with the committee unless he could assure the board that he would be approved by the committee. And so he wanted to ask how I thought it would go. And he went over to the list and it looked like he was probably,

00:13:54.669 - 00:14:11.869

I mean, the chances were very good but certainly not positive. But again, I thought that I felt he didn't have any choice that he would be unable to be president unless he went on and, and here's where I thought the tragedy of the thing struck because

00:14:11.880 - 00:14:33.830

he wanted to be president so badly, but he couldn't, um, stand up to the board. Apparently that this is, by the way, is opinion. Do you want opinion in this opinion is what affects your perception, isn't it? Yeah. Well, or the perception affects, I hope it's

00:14:33.840 - 00:14:51.309

the other way around that I perceive and then form an opinion. Ok. Uh, well, if he, my, my opinion now is that if at the dinner meeting he would have told the board you're putting me in an impossible position by tying my hands at this point.

00:14:51.690 - 00:15:11.859

And if you won't let me exercise my best judgment, you go jump in the lake or, you know, politer words, not, but essentially tell them that he was making it impossible for him to successfully um uh to work successfully as president unless he were given uh

00:15:11.909 - 00:15:32.609

some latitude of action to give some healing gesture because the situation was becoming polarized. Now, the board forced him in his conversation with the students to be evasive and back down in statements he made apparently. And this is second hand now and to me firsthand what

00:15:32.619 - 00:15:51.700

he said at in Deanie's office at 530 whatever time it was. And then later that evening, he essentially had to reverse himself again on orders from the board. And I think if he hadn't wanted the job quite so badly, he wouldn't have allowed himself to, uh,

00:15:51.710 - 00:16:08.919

be pulled in. I mean, he really wanted to be president and I thought that was very good. Anybody who is gonna be president better want the job because it's not, I mean, it, it has its drawbacks and you shouldn't force somebody into the job reluctantly. You

00:16:08.929 - 00:16:22.390

ought to really want it to carry him through his momentum, ought to be able to carry him through the low spots. So that was good. But he just wanted it a bit too much to be able to act correctly when he knew exactly what needed to

00:16:22.400 - 00:16:46.469

be done. And he just couldn't quite, uh, pull it off. And what I felt at that point was that, um, this would polarize the situation that if he left town as he was going to do without really giving the faculty a chance to pass on him

00:16:46.479 - 00:17:09.349

as president to give their opinion in any official way that this would polarize the situation and it wasn't gonna work. He had made it impossible. And the next morning I called him up in his hotel room and uh uh told him essentially that I felt that

00:17:09.359 - 00:17:30.010

I couldn't support him anymore because the situation was getting so bad internally that it was going to disrupt the university one way or another. And I wanted to support my colleagues that helped build a graduate program that this was my prime interest. And I worked my

00:17:30.020 - 00:17:47.560

entire career at Rice to build a graduate program. And I felt uh since it was going to be a, a situation like this where there was no healing gesture forthcoming. Not one, see, that was the 0.1 would have done it. And there are dozens of occasions

00:17:47.569 - 00:18:10.170

um that I had to go with. Uh even though I thought it was unfortunate, I didn't, I still feel in retrospect now that I didn't have any choice uh to do that. And he seemed at that point, uh again, he understood, I mean, he wasn't, I've

00:18:10.180 - 00:18:28.160

heard people say I was trying to say, you know, he was stupid and didn't understand and he kept hearing uh he only got information from the board or from the administration administrative officers or, or uh yes, ma'am. And that's not true. He, first of all was

00:18:28.170 - 00:18:52.250

talking directly to the students and the level had a uh sort of, uh I'd say our prime uh example of good stable student body. And he saw there what was happening, talk to me in Salzburg. And I don't think we're examples of uh uh either yes

00:18:52.260 - 00:19:12.130

men or rabble rousers. I mean, they're either extreme and it i, in any conversation I had with him, I never had anything but uh respect for his uh judgment and understanding of the situation, but he just was not quite able to act properly on his understanding

00:19:12.140 - 00:19:30.089

and judgment. And I think, because he wanted the job too much, but again, if he hadn't wanted the job that much, he probably wouldn't have made a good president either. It was an impossible situation. Ok. That's all I have. Now. Is there anything else you can

00:19:30.099 - 00:19:47.510

think of that? I should add that fits in? Well, I'd be interested in your, uh, in your, uh, comments to several things. Uh, the, um, did you ever have any conversations with him or perhaps I should word it this way? What was your understanding of, uh,

00:19:47.520 - 00:20:05.790

the program that he would like to see enacted at Rice, uh, if he should become president? Well, it was very clear that he wanted to see Rice become a good university that, uh, it's inconceivable, first of all without even talking to him, but it's just inconceivable.

00:20:05.800 - 00:20:18.750

Uh, even if you didn't know his name, I think anybody would take the job and say, I'm gonna make this a second class institution and I'm gonna come in and wreck the place that he wants this to be the best university. He wants to be president

00:20:18.760 - 00:20:41.500

of an outstanding university. So people go around and say there's the president uh Rice University, the gr you know, and uh he was interested in seeing it grow and uh there was nothing and I'll say this, I don't have any definite uh ideas of what, how

00:20:41.510 - 00:21:03.160

he intended to do this. But I got an impression now on this record as an impression is that he didn't intend to make detailed decisions because he did recognize the president's office doesn't do that, that this is done. In fact, it's even hard for the deans

00:21:03.319 - 00:21:20.489

to do very much. It's done almost exclusively at the department level. What holds the department's back is usually lack of money. If they could have more money and more budgeted positions, they could go ahead and if the president is successful at raising money, uh he's not

00:21:20.500 - 00:21:42.209

gonna hold us back and keep us from doing anything good. And I think he was prepared to go out and raise money for us and would have done that really well. And I don't believe he would have um say metal affairs at a department, individual department

00:21:42.219 - 00:21:58.760

level, it's hard for a president to do that. He's got to go through two levels of uh organizational structure to do that. I know this was a great fear that he, that the president kind of is like the piano player playing the whole thing. And that's

00:21:58.770 - 00:22:18.160

not true. And I don't think he had any aspirations to do that or any intention, any thought of doing that. Uh Some people have just described him as having a rather authoritarian outlook on university. Uh Is that, is that, uh how does that, uh, impress you?

00:22:18.170 - 00:22:40.890

Well, this might come from his, uh, uh, I don't know. Um, I mean, are you gonna get interviews from people or sort of testimonials from people at Vanderbilt? That's where he is. Is that right? Where that school he's at now. Chattanooga. That's right now. Chattanooga. Chattanooga,

00:22:41.300 - 00:23:05.069

uh, just find out how, because what they were thinking about was how he was either as dean or as a master of college and of course, as master of the college, there's two schools of thought, very permissive and authoritarian. I understand some students, he was more

00:23:05.079 - 00:23:25.219

of the authoritarian school, made them wear ties and dress neatly when they came to dinner and, uh, but they liked it. The students there seem to like it now. Dean. Um, I don't know, he had, uh, uh, some problems but nothing, um, or maybe somewhat more

00:23:25.229 - 00:23:43.260

than you might expect. Were these, the problems of a good administrator or were these the problems of poor administration? I, I really don't know. I really don't know. I've heard conflicting stories and, uh, uh, and I haven't looked into it enough. I don't have any firsthand

00:23:43.270 - 00:23:58.089

information. Do you think that any of the reaction against, uh, uh, Doctor Masterson and the faculty from what you were able to, to know and observe a, stemmed from the difference between the sciences and the humanities, or do you think this had any part in the

00:23:58.099 - 00:24:25.089

antagonism toward him? Well, ok. It certainly could have. Again. I don't think it should have the uh pitzer, for example, did more for the humanities than probably any humanities prof professor who becomes the president is going to be able to do. And again, my opinion is

00:24:25.099 - 00:24:40.530

very clear if the departments have the budget money to hire people and appoint new faculty positions and do what they wanna do that, no one ever tells the department what to teach and what not to teach and what areas to do research in what direction to

00:24:40.540 - 00:25:01.510

go, how to grow. In fact, the only thing that limits the departments and it always puts the lid on is the lack of money. And um, this never was made very clear and I can't understand how a president could uh influence this unless he was determined

00:25:01.520 - 00:25:20.900

to change the balance of Rice University to make it. Uh if it was his opinion that Rice should uh put most of its money in the humanities, which it wasn't as far as I know, he didn't have any intention of changing the balance that now exists.

00:25:21.300 - 00:25:38.520

But that would be the only way he could do it. Or maybe there were people afraid he would do it, you know, maybe they were afraid he could do that. There are a lot of, uh unfounded fears and rumors that were never answered. And, um, uh

00:25:40.329 - 00:25:54.560

after Saturday, it was completely out of hand, there was no hope at that point, there was nothing much that could be done on the basis of the people you talk to and the impressions you formed. How do you count the Masterson's performance at the press conference

00:25:54.569 - 00:26:10.920

before the students? Well, I think it must be the same thing. The word tied his hands and told him that uh you can't say, I mean, just go out and I mean, I guess now this is why this is one of the reasons I don't want

00:26:10.930 - 00:26:35.300

any of this release unless Masterson has his say. But my impression is uh he must have had explicit instructions from the board not to uh not to do anything that looked like he was um oh, giving in to uh rebellion or yielding under pressure so that

00:26:35.310 - 00:26:50.209

it might look like the students and faculty could take over the university from the board, you know, the yielding any board power. So I think if he had been free to follow his judgment, he would have done much, much better because any conversation I had with

00:26:50.219 - 00:27:09.109

him personally, he understood exactly what the problem was and knew exactly what the right thing to do was. Uh, and just said it beautifully. I think when you interview him, you'll see, he's extremely articulate and if he speaks to this point, uh, I think you'll see,

00:27:09.119 - 00:27:25.479

he did understand at every point and I'll be surprised if it isn't because the board told him he couldn't say anything. He had to hold a line that I've been appointed by the board. I'm your president and shut up and go away. And of course, and

00:27:25.489 - 00:27:45.550

he knew that was wrong. He knew that wouldn't work. Is there any possibility uh that um this, well, this, this student uh body who uh was standing outside uh uh that he talked with, is there any possibility he would consider those people a welcoming committee or

00:27:45.560 - 00:28:02.900

did he understand that they were marching in demonstration to oppose the board and to oppose the selection? I couldn't count? I mean, I'd never thought about that frankly. Uh 11 comment that he made that was widely criticized. Uh and I'm not revealing anything that's been said

00:28:02.910 - 00:28:16.609

to me in the interviews. This wasn't widely published in the papers at the time was that uh he looked out over this uh group of students and said, oh, I don't see any, I don't see any evidence of opposition to my uh presidency. And there are

00:28:16.619 - 00:28:32.339

perhaps two ways to account for it. One is that maybe he did think that this is a wel welcoming committee. They replied, they didn't uh clause. Uh another possibility is that they had pretty well restricted their rhetoric to criticisms of the board's method of selection rather

00:28:32.349 - 00:28:55.579

than to the, the man himself. So that's right. Uh It could have been put strictly on a criticism of the board and he could have save himself if he could have given one gesture of any kind. Uh That would have been, it's true. It would have

00:28:55.589 - 00:29:10.550

been an implied criticism of the board. But they had already gotten him in a very difficult position and they deserved if I might say that a little bit of criticism and they were ready to admit it. Allen admitted at the faculty meeting says we goofed, I

00:29:10.560 - 00:29:26.670

mean, it was very clear we made a mistake. Well, all right. So they made a mistake now they ought to let him do something. And so if he could have done that, um I think he could have pulled it off. But as it was, if he

00:29:27.920 - 00:29:43.959

took the point of view and here you'll find out when you interview him, if uh he saw it that way, I think he was probably right. I think almost all the criticism was against the board. There was some against the man himself. But if the vote

00:29:43.969 - 00:30:00.760

that was taken the following week had been taken that afternoon, you know, split the way it was against the board and the man itself, my impression is Masterson would not, would have won the vote down. It would have gone uh I mean, it just polarized after

00:30:00.800 - 00:30:22.359

uh his meeting with the students. So I'd say he could have meant this in uh the sense that it was a criticism of the board and not himself. And I believe he was right at that point. And then if he could have gone one step further,

00:30:22.369 - 00:30:39.020

which I think he knew what to do and how to do could have kept the criticism of falling on himself. Oh, there's one thing you said a while ago, you said that you and Doctor Masterson one time went to see doctor Pitcher about faculty loyalty. Uh

00:30:39.030 - 00:30:56.400

There's been a lot of discussion about faculty loyalty and higher education circles lately. Uh J Bars on, for instance, in his new book on the uh on higher education talks about it. Uh uh Do you consider this more or less of a problem than any place,

00:30:56.410 - 00:31:17.099

any other university around or? Uh no, no, I've talked to some colleagues at other universities and it's uh uh pretty bad at all everywhere and uh rice might even be a little better than most places. Uh One amusing sidelight on this is I notice how uh

00:31:17.109 - 00:31:35.459

pitcher's standing or image as a president has risen. Uh that when he was here, it was pretty hard to find anybody say anything good about him. But yeah, but now of course, I imagine you hear nothing but praise. Uh Yeah. So that's kind of amusing because

00:31:35.469 - 00:31:53.959

he was in my mind just an outstanding administrator. I mean, he was best administrator I have ever seen. It was really good. And yeah, he was having these piddling problems with faculty loyal day, like everyone else quite unnecessary, but he's having them anyway. Uh And then

00:31:53.969 - 00:32:15.739

of course, once he's gone, people realize how good he really was. So, uh it's, it's um, part of the style of running a university that causes this faculty this wildly and also I think it's just part of our age that this is an age of protests

00:32:15.750 - 00:32:35.959

and the sound you just aren't really with it unless you're complaining about the leader. This is nothing really new. Do you feel that most faculty, uh, owe their first loyalties to their, uh, professional, uh, associations right now? That's certainly true. It might possibly change. But that's

00:32:35.969 - 00:32:56.829

part of it. The, the, they get their promotion in the university based on what they're thought of outside the university, largely. If they're really good in their profession and are recognized nationally or internationally, then they get promoted. And if they stick to their, you know, their,

00:32:56.839 - 00:33:15.869

uh, students and never get a national reputation, never win any prizes, they're very likely not to get promoted. You know, don't publish papers, just teach there. They're very likely not to get promoted. This, uh, another thing that sort of touches on what we've been talking about,

00:33:15.880 - 00:33:33.750

uh, that I'd, I'd be interested in your comments on. Uh, so you've been here for six years? Uh Have you noticed any change in the composition of the board? Say since George Allen? Uh I mean, George, uh Brown retired. Well, I never really followed it that

00:33:33.760 - 00:33:57.189

closely. So, um, I don't know the, some people that I thought, uh, like J and Razor, I really thought a lot of and he's retired and I thought that's too bad. I don't know who they replaced him with. I mean, what other replacements may, whether kept

00:33:57.199 - 00:34:16.189

the composition where someone, uh, equally perceptive has been put on, I imagine that it has, but I haven't followed their views or feelings at all. Do you think the board is any more interventionist than it was, or do you think it just appears that way? Well,

00:34:16.860 - 00:34:41.290

I've never, uh, I probably just appears that way. Uh, the university is really pretty open now and, uh, like Mark Rudd came and spoke on campus and there wasn't any outcry and, uh, seems to me if there's any intervention or obstruction, it's being uh put up

00:34:41.300 - 00:35:00.699

by the left rather than the left wing of the student body rather than the board. Like, for instance, they pretty successfully kept Lyndon Johnson from coming on campus. And uh, I think just by their protests, they've prevented the, uh other students who wanted to hear him

00:35:00.709 - 00:35:20.830

from hearing him and as a counterpart, the board didn't, uh, stop, um, Mark Rudd from coming out. Although now they did keep the sds off campus. I, I presume it was their input that did that, which is probably a mistake. I think it could have. If

00:35:20.840 - 00:35:38.889

they had, uh, laid down a list of, uh, regulations of good behavior and then been prepared to enforce it, then he probably would have gotten away with it and done better. But if you look around campus and this is why I keep going. If you look

00:35:38.899 - 00:35:56.060

around campus and look for signs of intervention, I mean, I've been the department chairman now for six years. I just don't see it. Uh, and they're very successful at raising money that they've got one of the biggest endowments and of any school in the country, they've

00:35:56.070 - 00:36:12.719

only had one and they did most of it with no fundraising drive. I had one fundraising drive. It was very good and I presume they'll have more and, uh, there's not much in it for them. I can't, I mean, what motivation would they have for? Uh,

00:36:14.739 - 00:36:36.800

I mean, I keep thinking, you know, why would they want to, uh, you know, get a professor fired. I just can't believe they ever operate at that level. The ones I've met seem very sharp, perceptive guys and are dedicated to rice and it's true that everyone

00:36:36.810 - 00:36:59.000

wants the university to be a good university. Best university and the words good and best mean different things to different people and that should come out in group discussions. And um as far as I know it is or it does, you mentioned, uh at the very

00:36:59.010 - 00:37:18.330

start of the interview that you were sort of surprised when Doctor Masterson was announced as president. Uh have you uh been actively engaged in uh uh uh perhaps offering names to the committee or submitting dossiers or I'm in the Rox is in the same building and

00:37:18.340 - 00:37:40.489

we had, uh, we chat once in a while about how it's going and, uh, I was under the impression that no progress at all was being made. Uh, I was quite surprised that was just the, the old guy that actually offered a job and accepted. And

00:37:40.500 - 00:38:02.060

the other surprise was I had just become a customer, could always had, uh, kind of as president and I thought this was an established tradition and I was surprised there, oh, I don't see that a humanist couldn't also be a good president. But, uh, as long

00:38:02.070 - 00:38:19.159

as he, uh, uh, sees the job correctly and does his part of it correctly, but it's not that important that he be a recognized scholar or, or a scientist. But anyway, those two things surprised me because I was convinced we weren't gonna have a president for

00:38:19.169 - 00:38:41.899

another year and, uh, turns out, I guess I'm pretty close to. Right. But not, not for the same reason that, uh, you know, yeah, I, I just from conversations with Brad and was absolutely convinced that the board hadn't even discussed the matter yet. You know, they

00:38:41.909 - 00:39:08.979

just hadn't gotten together and done anything. How do you account for this apparent fast action on the part of the board? Well, uh, I don't know, it might be that they, uh didn't, but they had a rather narrow, um, criteria, uh established or a set of

00:39:08.989 - 00:39:34.909

criteria that involve dealing with the local community and fundraising, which could be considered if the job of presidency were to be split, this could be considered the prime job of the man named president. Uh Well, if that was their primary criteria, the Masterson was the obvious

00:39:34.919 - 00:39:57.530

choice. Um He's known in the community, his family is known and respected. He's uh an accom uh had all the qualifications. And uh I still, I'm telling, I still was surprised, I didn't know that was the criterion. Uh I mean, it was never announced or never

00:39:57.540 - 00:40:16.040

stated and there was no indication again, I guess you'll hear from members of the selection committee, but it's my understanding, they were never given any uh information as to who or what kind they should be looking for. And they were looking for people more like Pitzer

00:40:16.050 - 00:40:37.689

who were recognized administrators and scientists rather than recognized in the local community and the money uh interests here. Let me think about this criteria of a, of a nationally known scholar. Do you think that that's necessary in a president in order to attract qualified uh faculty.

00:40:38.159 - 00:40:59.719

No. Uh Let's see, the man that Pitzer replaced is an example who built Stanford up from something like I'd say the reputation Rice was to what it is now, which is really the highest caliber before he became president was curator of the Huntington Art Gallery, which

00:40:59.729 - 00:41:14.919

is a house somewhat bigger than Imma Hos Bayou be. Have you ever seen it? I've been in Pasadena. I used to live on street. It was about six blocks. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, so he's curator of, of that. And the only thing he really

00:41:14.929 - 00:41:34.100

knew, he spoke very well and he knew a lot of people with money interests in California. It was very effective at raising money for the university and it turns out money does it every time it's the American way, it really is. Whatever problems you've got money

00:41:34.110 - 00:41:52.939

will solve it. Sure. Uh, and the departments are able to grow. It's holding the departments. We're not, uh held back now by, uh being unable to attract qualified faculty. At least our department, we're being held back by lack of faculty positions. So I know there were,

00:41:52.949 - 00:42:10.679

there were a lot of things they somehow I'll picture the president as attending their departmental faculty meetings and leading them on the greater glory and that's just not right. He doesn't uh impact at that level. So I don't think it's necessary the man they chose for

00:42:10.689 - 00:42:34.000

president at MIT. Um Johnson is not renowned as a scholar. A lot of good universities have picked presidents that are not renowned scholars. And if uh money is a big problem, I think the president ought to have this quality or qualification of being able to raise

00:42:34.010 - 00:42:54.850

money. And then a lot of the administration university then should be turned over to say a vice president or a chancellor or something like that. Uh That's what Stanford did this. Uh Sterling Wallace turned over the internal operation in the university largely to oh, got the

00:42:54.860 - 00:43:15.729

names now. But there are a couple of guys that granted. So I know that was a big factor. There are all these factors I consider most of them extraneous. Um but they were never answered. And the board again had a very nice opportunity to do it

00:43:15.750 - 00:43:33.389

through the faculty student committee to point out how, what their problems were and how the university budget was right at the limits and they needed a man to help them raise money and that this money would then enable them to go on to bigger and greater

00:43:33.399 - 00:43:52.250

things if they had done that. And I asked the board to come up the student faculty selection committee to come up with names. I'd wager that they would have come up with Masterson as one of the suggestions. There would have been some uh complaints perhaps from

00:43:52.260 - 00:44:11.659

the committee. I think boson surely would have registered a minority opinion and uh who else is on it? Remlinger Rason Rimmer with a registered loud protest, but there would have been equally loud praise his name would have come up and they could have selected him. There

00:44:11.669 - 00:44:26.320

would be no complaint. How much credence do you give the, uh, some of the rumors that were going around at the time about the number of faculty who would quit if, uh uh if uh Masterson became president very little, where would they get a job? This

00:44:26.330 - 00:44:41.620

is a bad time. I mean, a few of them might have said I quit and stomped off and try to find a job and found themselves in a red line. But jobs are extremely hard to get now in a university, which of course, is quite an

00:44:41.629 - 00:44:59.070

opportunity for any university of money because they now have their pick of, uh, the best people available. This is just a bad, bad time to quit. I think it was an emotional reaction. But later on when they tried to find a job, I think most of

00:44:59.080 - 00:45:17.310

them would have thought better of it. And, uh, uh, state any quitting would have been a very long range thing. Now, it's true. A few people might have felt so embarrassed, uh, having told so many people they were gonna quit. You know what I mean? Publicly,

00:45:17.320 - 00:45:32.290

I'm gonna quit, you know, 100 people. Well, then they maybe have to quit just and take a job in the post office just to, uh, save face. But I think any serious quitting or I'm gonna go to a good university. Well, Rice is a pretty good

00:45:32.300 - 00:45:50.189

university. I mean, as we will get a job at one better and there aren't any, uh, jobs available at one is better. I, once in a while there wouldn't have been any, uh, mass quitting. I really discount that. I think the boy probably did too. It's

00:45:50.199 - 00:46:14.169

uh hard to believe they would uh not realize university jobs were tight. Uh Is the board involved in any way with uh such things as faculty selection or tenure or any of these things? They approve uh uh the number of, as I understand it now, they

00:46:14.179 - 00:46:34.810

approved the number of 10 year positions because this is a budget matter and they may, if they object, say you can only have uh 280 tenured positions this year or 290 but they're not going to say that professor. So and so can't have tenure. I think

00:46:34.860 - 00:46:52.760

that is pretty well decided by faculty and the department, faculty. Well, the last check is uh the faculty council, it's advise your body to the president and he presents these to the board and I've never heard of the board second guessing. I never even heard of

00:46:52.770 - 00:47:10.280

the board second guessing yet, but the place will get turned down if it is the highest level is the faculty council where they are supposed to be guardians of university standards and supposed to see that one department isn't soft while another one is hard. Uh And

00:47:10.290 - 00:47:30.790

uh the rice maintains good quality. Uh So the way it works is the faculty of the department. The senior faculty will recommend a man for tenure and the chairman will put together a case submitted to the dean who then either approves it or not, but no

00:47:30.800 - 00:47:49.590

matter what he does, he passes it on to the faculty counsel. He can say that I recommend this not be granted, but it would still pass it on and they can and occasionally do overrule the dean. Uh and other times he will recommend promotion and the

00:47:49.600 - 00:48:06.870

faculty counsel will say, well, he really isn't as good as the history of people and too many. And they're the ones who decide on the split between history, say and space science, I mean, history of learning, space science and another. So the deans, in other words,

00:48:06.879 - 00:48:19.389

you'd have Dean of Science Engineering, the Dean of Humanity, they would approve it, they would approve it. And then we would come up to the faculty council which represents the entire school and the administration for file. And as far as I know when it goes to

00:48:19.399 - 00:48:36.229

the board, the board just gives them overall numbers like uh you've got 10, too many. We just haven't got that much money or we don't wanna make because the board looks at each tenured faculty member is a lifetime commitment of salary MC professors are getting um

00:48:36.489 - 00:48:56.280

$30,000. Well, not that much per year for I commitment is something over 20,000 a year. And uh if you got an extra 10, that's getting close to a quarter of a million dollars a year, they've gotta come up with every year. An operational budget is just,

00:48:56.729 - 00:49:11.760

well, 10 extra tenure faculty is a lifetime commitment of a quarter of a million dollars a year. And they look at this and I didn't say, gee, it just doesn't look like the endowment is big enough that we can safely risk it. What if the stock

00:49:11.770 - 00:49:31.870

market crashes and the government, see, they've been saying for years, the government might pull out of support of education and now they're right, the government is pulling out Ns F's cutting back drastically and NASA, which used to support us gloriously. It's just about out of business.

00:49:31.879 - 00:49:49.370

Now, the Office of University Affairs went from 40 million a year to 10 million a year in one year and almost got cut to 3 million in this last year. That's for the whole United States and our department three years ago, spent $4 million in one

00:49:49.379 - 00:50:08.030

year. So anyway, and they were right and they were worried so we have something to worry about. And so anyway, as far as on it in a way, they never make a detail like uh profe this guy can't be promoted because we don't like the length

00:50:08.040 - 00:50:23.919

of his hair. I just don't believe that's ever done. They'll say that your budget's too big, cut it by 10% or something like that. Uh I got the uh some of this information directly from Pittser, I was asked to give, you know, do you think though?

00:50:23.979 - 00:50:39.540

He said, oh, they don't look at the detail, they look at the final figure and make a judgment on whether or not they can afford it. Generally, they've been, they really work to give the faculty what they say they need, see the budgets made up a

00:50:39.550 - 00:50:57.550

faculty request coming through the deans into the president's office and the board does its best to provide that much money. Well, it sounds like the, the faculty sort of runs the university on a day to day basis. Uh They certainly have to go to the curriculum

00:50:57.560 - 00:51:16.989

and uh yeah, hiring, I mean, first of all the quality of who's hired and who they let go. Yeah, I don't, I mean, I've heard this charge before. It's um I have an emotional um thing. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I

00:51:17.000 - 00:51:37.570

know it's a real phenomenon that is really happening. And the administration, the president and the board do need to take this phenomenon into account and their dealings with the faculty. They can sit and say, well, it's ridiculous and it's uh illogical, but nevertheless, it's real, this

00:51:37.580 - 00:51:53.899

is the way the faculty generally really feel these things that you've mentioned. Uh I've heard them, they, they send them to me and I try to argue, you know, it's not true or they'll say the board uh isn't, has uh not done a good job with

00:51:53.909 - 00:52:10.939

the endowment. I've heard that and if there's one thing, the guys in the board are really good at is managing money. Uh, let's see. I noticed that. Well, I, I mentioned they had one of the biggest endowments in the country without ever having a fundraising drive.

00:52:10.949 - 00:52:31.139

They did it. And then uh I get the Caltech Alumni magazine and the president's report to see how their board of trustees does. Uh and the rice board outperforms the Caltech Board on the management of the money put in the stock market. So, and these guys,

00:52:31.149 - 00:52:44.889

they're rich, they know how to manage money. They, I mean, these guys in the economics department, they claim they could do better, how much money, how much money have they made in the stock market. You know, it's uh very easy to sit back and criticize on

00:52:44.899 - 00:53:07.580

the basis of little information. But uh I think the board has done that part of the job just outstandingly raising money and managing the money. Uh their image with the faculty is bad and it's unnecessarily bad. And I think unless they care about it and try

00:53:07.590 - 00:53:23.199

to, you know, make a better image, hire a public relations firm or something. I mean, they're certainly smart enough to do the right thing. If they decide to improve their image, uh they're gonna continue to have this kind of problem. I don't see that there's really

00:53:23.209 - 00:53:39.919

any substance to the criticism, but the criticisms exist, they show no signs of going away and the board doesn't seem to be doing anything uh to reverse it. Do you think that uh the, the faculty feeling on the subjects we've been talking about is part of

00:53:39.929 - 00:53:55.989

the overall United States movement against the military industrial complex which is supposed to be ruling the world. Uh, uh, certainly this part of it or, uh, do you think that, uh, this play much part? It's really far more particular than that? I think it's a lot

00:53:56.000 - 00:54:17.709

more particular if you, again, the people are talking about the military industrial complex remind me of, uh, see, I was a graduate student when mccarthyism was rampant and it sounds exactly the same, the word communist conspiracy. I can just replace the military industrial complex. And the

00:54:17.719 - 00:54:36.850

rest of the sentence is exactly what mccarthy would have said. You know, there's a big conspiracy that somehow I was running everything. Well, heck, you can't even get one agency. Uh, I mean, even I, I worked in Lockheed Aircraft before I came here and, uh, even

00:54:36.860 - 00:54:55.949

within a company, you couldn't get any agreement within the management, much less to get two or three companies. And the Pentagon and somebody else to agree on what to do and to think of the leverage you'd have to pull to run a conspiracy is, um, yeah,

00:54:55.959 - 00:55:15.399

now there are special interests of all the groups and if their interests coincide, why, um, naturally things will go in one direction or another. But I don't see the Pentagon now, friends having a real tough time in Congress. They're being kicked up the stairs and down

00:55:15.409 - 00:55:32.879

the stairs. And, uh, it's, uh, uh, they don't show any great strength, uh, with, uh, the people's representatives, the people's representative. I don't notice that the conspiracy extends to the point that anybody's being taken in by it. Yeah. So, anyway, but again, that, uh, exists, I

00:55:32.889 - 00:55:51.840

think though it rise, it's not a strong factor. It was brought up once at an, a AUP meeting and it was greeted with a lot of yawns and, uh, uh the people there that this was just a week before the Masterson affair broke and the people

00:55:51.850 - 00:56:12.159

the following week were all excited, couldn't really feel that taking money from the Air Force or d some dod agency necessarily involved them in the Vietnam War. You know, I mean, it was not, uh, or that, uh, one of the people in humanities put that, uh,

00:56:12.389 - 00:56:28.929

uh, he got money from the Rockefeller Foundation and the Rockefellers weren't all that clean either. It was. And, you know, I mean, there was this, uh, this thing so I'd say the same people the next week were really upset about that and I don't think there's

00:56:28.939 - 00:56:48.739

any great move it right then not. But how do you count for the fact that uh that these accusations follow such fertile soil in the student imagination? Is it because of the tremendous prestige which faculty has? Uh uh Well, OK. Uh I really don't know, except

00:56:48.750 - 00:57:08.489

I'd say the moderate element and the board and the administration don't do anything to defend themselves. There's no public relations, they don't get their side of the story out. And so the people that, you know, want to uh the people with a message and, and uh

00:57:09.070 - 00:57:25.250

interest and enthusiasm, it's hard work. I mean, the people that spread these stories worked very hard at it. They've got to spend hours and hours, you know, gathering up and writing and thinking and talking and, you know, getting around and I don't think the soil is

00:57:25.260 - 00:57:42.989

especially fertile. I mean, I think it'd be just as fertile for the other point of view, but I don't believe it's ever very well presented or presented at all. I never hear of the board of trustees uh coming out with any public statements other than these

00:57:43.199 - 00:57:58.889

uh you know, realtors saying that so and so has been appointed to the $33 million campaign is a success, but they never come up with any policy statements with regard to the university. Uh any statements of their Phil philosophy. I've never seen one if they have,

00:57:59.570 - 00:58:18.290

uh, the, their contact with the faculty and students is small. The same with the university administration or at least smaller than it ought to be. There are no administration newsletters. Are we running out of tape through? Oh, ok. I've got a three o'clock appointment so I'm

00:58:18.300 - 00:58:35.120

gonna have to run it about, if not through you. Um, so anyway, I would think that if the moderate, but see the point about the moderate element of is the reason they're moderate is they aren't that excited about anything. And as I say, it's a lot

00:58:35.129 - 00:58:54.739

of work to do something about it. So if they aren't excited and don't have this burning missionary fervor the other points of view, never get stated or never get stated equal time. Uh I really think that's all there is to it and I don't believe the

00:58:54.750 - 00:59:15.449

students are susceptible to one line of argument, not another or one line of argument is any more compelling than the other. It's, that one is almost exclusively put out. Do you think the faculty radicalizes the student body in themselves? Uh Yeah, to the extent that student

00:59:15.459 - 00:59:27.060

bodies get radicalized. Do you think the faculty is? Uh I don't know which, which, which is leading, which it's hard, it's hard to say. But this is, it's kind of, first of all, it's kind of an interesting thing, you know, to go out and, you know,

00:59:27.070 - 00:59:48.159

something to talk about. And it's, uh, uh, I know that everyone, even though they perhaps deny it, uh, a sense of power is always very appealing to, I mean, I think this is one of the, uh, uh human motivations, you know, power, authority recognition. This is

00:59:48.169 - 01:00:05.790

sure way to get it at a very young age is to kind of, you know, take over the burn, the administration building or something. And, uh, I'm sure that they encourage each other. I don't in any given university. I don't know who's leading and who's following,

01:00:06.139 - 01:00:26.879

but there's enough encouragement from initially a pretty small group and without any, um, equally fervent counterbalancing element, which always appears to be lacking. Even when the university's burning guys who would like to go to class, students would like to go to class, just stand around with

01:00:26.889 - 01:00:44.729

their hands in their pocket, watching the classroom burn. Um, once in a while they might fight a little bit, but it's too late by then. It's just too late. Uh, other than that, they probably are studying or something instead of, uh, and the faculty that's serious

01:00:44.750 - 01:01:03.649

minded and thinks everything's all right and satisfied is in their room doing research or teaching and are not countering this anyway. I don't know what the answer is, but I don't, I really don't believe that one argument is more compelling than the other. I think that

01:01:03.659 - 01:01:23.860

one argument is presented more often and more loudly than the other is what polarizes the campus. Is it radicalizes the campus. Now, perhaps the solution will be when uh the radicals finally, you know, have their, have their day which is pretty close to happening now, repressive

01:01:23.870 - 01:01:46.899

measures from the state legislators, the legislatures and the uh dwindling federal support, which I think will probably be accelerated by this pretty well tighten up university life. Uh So, you know, it's harder to get into college and all that. The things just might come back then

01:01:46.909 - 01:02:06.709

it won't be as interesting anymore. They'll have almost everything they want and, uh, maybe get back to studying. Uh, well, this one, I certainly do appreciate you coming in. Your, uh, your, uh, interview has been very worthwhile and I've been very interested in your, in your

01:02:06.719 - 01:02:23.679

insights, which, uh I think really make a, a contribution to this, this project. Well, it's probably one I'll say that that you won't hear from many other, many other faculty members. Uh, uh, I noticed in talking to them that my views are extremely unpopular and I

01:02:23.689 - 01:02:38.780

think you'll, if you haven't talked to very many, you'll notice that, uh, the idea is that the, uh, you know, we ought to stick to education and let the administration administer and we can do, you know, the idea that the department can hire them, it wants

01:02:38.790 - 01:02:57.590

and that the board doesn't interfere with me other than I can't get enough money. Uh, that's just not a very popular view and I really be surprised if it's expressed by anybody else. But, ok. Well, fine, look, you, let me know, I would like to talk

01:02:57.600 - 01:03:00.719

to Mr Lytle. Is that, let me see if he's here? Yeah.