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Poly Moore. Today is June 17th, 1969. This is interview number 33 Doctor Alan Grove. Uh Doctor Go just so I can check the microphone setting here. Would you uh just give me your name and address? And let me see how uh Allen Grove 2122 mclendon Road.

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I think that would be all right. Um We were just uh talking informally, Doctor Grove about the sort of thing we're interested uh in uh getting from you on these uh interviews we're interested first in your, in your recollections of the events. Of course, we're interested

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in your participation and how your attitudes uh uh change from on the basis of new developments uh throughout this four day weekend and uh your analysis of uh of the significance of the uh of the four days. It's a good starting place. Uh Can uh can

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you give me some idea of what uh your impression was uh or is of the office of presidency and what kinds of qualities you were looking for in the man you'd like to see in that position? I suppose the best way I can sum it up

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is is by saying that I was a, I admire President Pitzer and I suppose that uh the qualities, uh I'm most respected. Well, I, I took for granted, in fact, for a sense of rice as a, as a national institution. And it seemed to me that

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rice when President Pitt came, he came to see me right in 1961. Uh it was very far from being a national institution and although we hadn't really achieved strong institutional, we haven't been established as a truly national institution. We were making progress in that direction. And

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II, I hope, first of all, we would get a president uh would continue to take us in that direction. What in your opinion was required in order to continue moving in that direction? I guess this would be an an analysis of your or your analysis of

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the shortcomings that rs Well, I think first of all, I simply uh national ambitions uh which which not everyone at the university had. Uh And uh they uh a quality of, of professional judgment. Uh One of the things I had come to increasingly respect the president,

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Pita Fort too was I think he as time went on became more and more aware of students. I think when he came here, he didn't have this awareness of students. Uh It was perhaps awfully professional, but we were beginning to strike uh an institutional balance uh

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between uh a concern with students and a concern with other forms of academic prestige. And I think we were, we were on the way to becoming a substantial university. Did uh did you have any special opinions about the role of graduate uh versus undergraduate or uh

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the science, engineering emphasis versus the uh humanities or uh did you think that these things uh the select the presidency? I think in fact that president uh was, was on the whole, pretty widely respected by me, the humanities people in the university that uh in my

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own department, I think we never had any real quarrel with uh with the way we have been treated. Uh I think that might be a little professional resentment or the scientists have better sources of income than we did and so forth. But I think on the

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whole, there, there was no uh uh my own feeling, in fact, was, I assumed we would carry on in the tradition we had carried on and that is go out and get a distinguished scientist as president of the University Caltech or Berkeley or mit it some

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very major institution. And uh on the basis of my experience with President Pisser, I had no opinion. I, I, my dad, I uh I was, I was teaching in Indiana last summer and uh they were having presidential problems and I, I was taught, telling them at

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the time what good set up we had here. We had a very strong president that I thought very responsive and, uh, uh, to, to students and to the kinds of problems that they, they were facing. And, uh, I was really stunned to find out if he,

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he quit. Very disappointed. In fact, people who told me it in the end I knew I would be. But, uh, I, I had, uh, I was pretty well content with the notion of, sort of, more of the same in the role of credit. I'm not trying

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to present Pitzer. He may seem too idealized. But uh in retrospect, it looks very good. And at the time I thought, well, I always felt that Pits was not only uh ambitious for the universe. I thought he had pretty good judgment and I thought he was

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a man of just great intelligence. So these, these uh these all, I had no ideal notions of a president in a sense. I, I felt that uh that was to continue on somewhat the same. Do you think, did you think rice might have any difficulty in

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finding such a person or did you have people in mind? You would like to have? Uh No, I didn't have anyone in mind. Uh There had been some names suggested that we had talked about, but I really didn't know any of the people personally. The only

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cancer that I ever had in mind uh uh with someone from the faculty, I thought Franz Broxson would make a good president. But other, other than that, uh I really wasn't terribly concerned. II, I, about the, uh, the selection of a president, I assume we would

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do it by sort of, by the same kind of procedures that we chose Pitzer and end up with the same kind of choice. And if they had said X A well known hys from Caltech, it would have completely satisfied. And even as a, as a kind

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of unknown quantity. What was your reaction when you heard that the board had, uh, made decisions? Did you, uh, did you know mattress? I guess you were here? Yes. Yes, you would have, uh, well, here in the process of recollection I got the notice in the

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morning. Of course, as everyone did, I came in to teach a nine o'clock class. I, uh, I just got the notice but I was still hurrying to class and didn't pay much attention to it and didn't find out until I came back that there had been

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no consultation from whom did you receive this information? Uh, the no constipation, I guess. I've heard it will b I see. Was he pretty assessed about it? Uh, oh, God. What did he say? How did he act? Uh, I, he was just angry that they had

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him consulted. Well, we, I got back from a nine o'clock class and as you remember, it was a terrible day, the weather was just a, uh, we were sitting around talking about it. We didn't know who to come was and uh we were all very angry

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about the procedures. I was sitting with several people in the English Department, Doctor Ward. I asked Doctor Minter but, but still we had no notion of who, who the person would be. Were there any speculations at that during that conversation? I think a lot of us

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will probably think of some sort of political choice, John Conley or there've been rumors earlier, Dean Rusk and what that LBJ rule. But, but I don't think anyone took them seriously, but we were all puzzled as to why there had been no consultation. And this was

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our first instinct to say that they had picked somebody who, who really uh would be very distasteful because uh it would be some sort of very conservative political choice, not an educational person at all. I think this is, this was our, our instinct over here. Uh

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But II, I don't think you ever really focused well about, I guess about 11 o'clock, I went over to the economics department. Uh I know r with her pretty well, I went over to ask to complain about the lack of the, the procedural failures. And I

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got in there and I started to complain and he said, uh, you mean you don't know who it is? No, said, well, he said he couldn't tell me but he said, wait slow down. And I said, well, I said, does anybody know? He said he thinks

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it's pretty widely known but he still can't tell me and tell me. So I said, well, the newspapers have it, you said, call on and see. And I called the chronic Office and of course they have it. I was just, pardon me? I believe, uh, it

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was so at the end of the world, uh, and I went back over to the department and, uh, told them go one. So, uh, pulled out and who was horrifying? Uh, and I went to lunch at the faculty and I remember having lunch with Tom Leland,

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chairman of Chemical and he said there are tornado warnings out, the clocks have stopped and mass has sent the c and then after lunch, I went over to history. Oh, I had been over to history earlier, really looking for Ellen Matao, who's a good friend of

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mine and I know would be similarly horrifying. And, uh at that time I spoke to with John Rad and Katherine D control that it was hard, right? When they all expressed this belief was the end of the day. Oh, wow. I guess Catherine asked him if

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it was. He Vandervis said, yes, he said, he, Vandervis said at that point that he thought that the procedures were wrong but that they had made a good selection that the blood had made a good selection. What was the, what was the reaction to that comment

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among those who did it? Well, we know nobody was surprised that he would be the only father about it. I mean that we were there, there were some people around who were friends from that and Frank and, and, ok, fine. But the reaction of the R

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is. Mhm. Can you uh can you give me the reasons for your uh for your, for your distress? Much of the reason much of the reason was personal. Masson had made a great while he was Dean, his role in the history department. Uh Most of us

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felt that he, well, all of us have had a very serious conflict with. So what, what kinds of conflicts? Uh Well, uh for example, very serious arguments, he, he would very often try to undermine the workings of departments uh in the sense that uh he would

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get individual members of department and, and try to develop departmental policy behind the department's back. So I had a very serious conflict with him. I was in a committing to select my second year here and I was on it, there were three members on it but

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one was on radio. So the committee was uh may not do I was I was on it down and, and he had gone out without our knowledge and requested an additional appropriation from the board to select somebody as chairman uh without informing us of this. You

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see, you mean was it just a budget request or what that was a budget request for an individual who would have had a salary high and could be authorized without board permission. Oh, I say he wanted to make an offer to someone. He had a fine.

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We were on a committee, a departmental committee to select a chairman. We constituted that committee and without our knowledge, he was going out to do this. Well, we, I had a very, uh, sharp argument with Matson at that time when I was young, I was, he

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really was, was very abusive, so abusive. In fact that, uh, willed out and called Pitzer and said that he didn't think that anyone should be treated that way. Oh, that, like when you come home for me in the block and p office without mas and present.

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But this was, uh, very frequently the, the kinds of relations. Uh, he was impulsive, uh, I think tended to have a rather low regard of when you say he was abusive. Uh, how, how do you mean, did he, did he use, uh, abusive language or? I

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mean, he, he, uh, but, uh, they would shout, what, uh, will you make a tax on your dignity or what, uh, what did you do? Sort of, you know, you can't tell me what to do and what not to do and, and end in anger and

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shouting and your, your own position, of course, was always rather precarious. I'm interested in this because it, uh, it, it reflects something that, uh, uh, you know, I would, uh, like to explain pretty fully, uh, can give you, uh, the comment of this conversation that you

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had written over the, uh, the collection of you realize that might be good behind the back. And how, how did you phrase it? Do you recall? Well, I, I said that the committee had been appointed to, to do this and, uh, we felt that we ought

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to be consulted in these, in these matters and be considered. And, uh, I accused him of violating procedures, the proper procedures. He got very angry and, uh, you know, said, don't tell me about morality and, uh, don't tell me what procedures to use. Uh, it was,

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it was, it was more a question of tone. I mean, he didn't say I was gonna fight it. You really abused my dignity but, but you could always tell the fact his face would get red and, uh, this was a rather familiar, uh, a picture of

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masts and, uh, now this was, this was while he was being a human being that's pretty good. And, and for a long period of time we didn't speak to one another. Now, I was a, a social defense in college, uh, and another tendency he had was

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to pick people out, as I said, in department, uh, to try to get them to do things, uh, against the wishes of the department. I, I just really, it's very unsuitable. I mean, he would encourage people in a department. To go say to a meeting and

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get the names of people for hiring to hire, to do. In fact, what would amount to interview without telling the truth things in my society? One, but a lot of personal, were you aware of his uh acting in this uh in this way, in any specific

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instance? Was it uh have you been with uh with a couple of colleagues of mine? The fact was upgrading in oil and they, they told him, I mean, he, he would suggest things uh were um any faculty member would realize we're impro and I think this

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was something when we're all conscious of how do you account for the fact that he didn't consider this imp sufferer? I, I don't know. I think in part, it goes back to very old rice traditions. Rice was a very paternalistic place that would run out of

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one's hip pocket, so to speak. Um And uh it was a good place for a wheeler and dealer to operate in that sense. And I think Masin was a, was a wheeler and dealer, but gotten where he got to by, by wheeling the family and it

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just had no academic processes uh of, of the conventional sort. For example, before Pita came, we had no tenure tenured comfortable by 1963. Now this wasn't uh uh II I don't want to give the impression that, that the absence of tenure meant that they were firing

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people who, who would be, who had been here 30 years. Um, but in fact, once you got your appointment here, you tended to be assured of staying on it. There was no real probation. But on the other hand, it left everybody very exposed and many people

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know it, it was easy to get rid of somebody. It was, it was not a, a very well defined that we didn't have a very well defined system of academic procedures here. It was placed II, I think the uh much that I say about metastasis, I

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think it was just character. I once decide, described mass systems nature in such a way that uh he was a man who if he could pick up the phone and call, you would have somebody throw a note through your window in the middle of the night

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to uh say the same thing I remember a story uh in which uh they've got a big fight in the English Department. This was before I came. And uh no, no, it was the, you know, I came but the year before it had been a big

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fight with a man named Jackson had been on the verge of leaving. He was visiting professor Johns Hopkins. Uh and he ultimately went there. But uh Madison gave Jim Castaneda a letter to deliver to Cope at the meeting. And uh coat was really on the out

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with Will Bowen Castaneda knowing uh couldn't be located Castaneda knowing nothing about the internal feuds of the department asked Bowden where it was and said he had a message co and you say, well, why don't you just write him a letter instead of sending a secret

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message? No, I think this was the way they mastery. It could have been to operate. It could have been a letter of introduction to. No, they wasn't. No, me, me because, uh, that was the way he operated. I had a, a personally very the thing about

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performing, right. But I think that would, uh, I like my people. I think one of the major factors uh in, in what happened with a lot of people, a lot. We uh one colleague of mine and, and, and, and especially people participated in this who I

00:23:55.819 - 00:24:18.300

don't think would ordinarily have participated and sort of things if they didn't really feel that the uh uh that masters of the president really raise f with the place and, and didn't have uh a lot of ill will towards Landus. And I think it was, uh,

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there was a great deal that was involved with principle, but I think it was a vast amount of on the, just a vast minute, a lot of symptoms can have to lose in those four days. Did you go to the uh four o'clock meeting of the

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uh faculty that Friday? I'll give you all additional information. All right. You were still in the, the halls of the Hinton and English department. So I went to the medical office and we talked about what could be done and we decided to drop. So that was

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cool about I with that, with that, don't I uh m go up. Um and then we got some copies of it and I took them around to a number of departments. There wasn't much time and gave them to individuals in the department who I know would

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sympathize. Uh and uh they, and they got for the signature, but I took them to chemistry, economics, to space science, to biology, to geology and also got some signatures and, and with the clot and uh in the history department, and then I asked Jack Ward, he

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was in seminar and I called him and I have to sign it and I asked him if he was presented. Is there a special reason why they pick the Doctor Ward? Yeah, I thought he was a person who was the chairman of the major department. Had

00:26:18.739 - 00:26:46.890

a lot of that. Your mom is calling. I thought he was a very, really, very good choice. Uh And I thought also he was, I like that you wouldn't be afraid to do it, but he knew it would, he knew it would r and, and of

00:26:46.900 - 00:27:16.810

course one at that point, no one knew how things were going to end. And so, and her mom is certainly a good deal of rest present the petition against the coming, particularly an incoming president who, who really was his vindictive himself. I go to the place

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of them. No, you, you have, you have full knowledge that the, the courage that such an act would require. We were talking about that. Did, uh did Doctor Ward uh express any reluctance or did I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I think they could, that queen to involve

00:27:39.829 - 00:27:54.760

themselves to an amazing when you met Doctor Ward. Uh, do you call, uh, how many signatures were on your fish at that time? Uh Well, when I asked him, when I first asked him, when you called up, we didn't, you must have had the, the original

00:27:54.770 - 00:28:17.540

signs. I was just on my way to get them collective. A few in England by the time you up to the meeting about, how many signatures have you agreed by that time? Well, I must have thought about it 30 or 35 but of course, you know,

00:28:17.550 - 00:28:36.250

people weren't around, we only had an hour or so to do it and then, uh, took the top off of him. He, he said it, it came like hone that take, but it was clear that we got a lot of important people to sign it and

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people have cancer. That the, no, but the number gone out. No, it wasn't in town. But we got clar number of department chairs. Mhm. What happened in between then and the time you went to the meeting? No, I was just running around. Uh, sort of, I

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remember my feet were absolutely soaked. The weather was just horrible and I was just running around for the whole hour. Uh getting, getting a signature uh going through various departments. Oh, and, and I think one of the reasons, for example, some departments there weren't any signatures

00:29:27.760 - 00:29:43.469

or architecture for one. And it was simply that I had never had a chance to get over there. I didn't really know anybody there well enough to study. But the other department, I immediately thought of people who would take the thing around and get it, get

00:29:43.479 - 00:30:01.689

it signed. Um And, and we, we didn't have, I think we got an amazing number of signatures in the lack of time because the thing, we didn't start the thing out until three o'clock. I know a lot of people weren't here. The weather was bad. A

00:30:01.709 - 00:30:23.010

number of people were out of town. OK. OK. But when, when we finally got it toward it had to get 6061. So I'd be interested in your comments uh or the, the things that stand out in your mind about the uh path that we had four.

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What was your impression of the announcement, for instance, of her violin in his uh speech? Well, her violin made a very poor impression on the faculty, of course, wasn't able to just wasn't on a wavelength of faculty told us what they had done. Right. Not a

00:30:51.739 - 00:31:14.160

stupid reference how people grow up in different jobs and they knew that that and they had trouble, had a number of Supreme Court stuff that went in there with live room and came out as conservative as, you know, it's just there, there wasn't much, uh, into

00:31:14.170 - 00:31:49.890

play of, of, of mine for there. Uh, and I suppose my next major impression was which client during the meeting. That's what I don't and what, but people are very angry about. And then there was the, uh, debate on the motion when the motion was divided.

00:31:51.650 - 00:32:08.260

Uh I thought we were gonna lose, but I thought the division was the test of people who would support division were the people who work. They would only go to the first hand when it was divided. And I was just stunned when, when the second half

00:32:08.270 - 00:32:32.089

the motion and, uh, they want in business, then you just thought had the better 10, no, no, I mean, but, but you felt that, uh, that you had some basis to find it, to find it, that something. Uh, and I think it was terribly important in

00:32:32.099 - 00:32:59.069

relationship to the students because, uh, I don't think the student, the students didn't know enough to really involve themselves to this degree in all of it. And I think the students were, uh, we're very much inclined to follow the lead of the sun. I think it

00:32:59.079 - 00:33:29.060

was little question and I think in part is and some students, I heard some students say, but they also felt that the uh uh members of the faculty that, uh but were the people who were speaking out against me. But at one time, I felt at

00:33:29.069 - 00:33:54.359

the meeting, uh and later on, virtually everything went wrong for us. Uh Even the division with th the resolution which I had opposed, as I said, because it would change to separate procedure in the band itself tended in the end to work to do part of

00:33:54.369 - 00:34:20.749

them. You have clear cut objection to the choice itself, you know, so there was no mixing of procedure and the, and the name. But uh and then I suppose everybody's final impression of the faculty meeting was, was leaving there, great spectacle of the students fall out

00:34:20.759 - 00:34:44.279

there. Nobody was very, I think at that point, nobody was very confident. Uh In fact, I think we, we, we all were a little bit euphoric from the meeting but had a kind of realistic sense of but still all the pile, all the they had all

00:34:44.289 - 00:35:09.500

the weapons and uh and I think nobody could foresee events. Uh army, the language started to be about leaving and stress and things like that. But I think nobody wanted to do those things. So the fact of the faculty members that need stand out in your

00:35:09.510 - 00:35:37.659

mind is being especially effective. No, no, I don't think uh I don't think anything was done really. Uh I think one thing that did happen now, II, I should tell you that, that a number of people came in and said they would not sign the petition

00:35:38.020 - 00:36:06.260

because they didn't know all the facts. And I think Bronson's presentation of what happened, well, not to the presentation convinced everybody that the faculty had been had. What did you do then after the meeting? Uh Did you attend any of the uh informal meetings that evening

00:36:06.270 - 00:36:29.169

or? No? No, I went home. The only thing I could have known, I was called by somebody from the post and he phoned one. He wanted to know the wording of the motion and Ward didn't remember him. Uh He, he asked me what we, to what

00:36:29.179 - 00:36:47.899

we would gain by test. And I said, I hope we would get out of the situation we're in, but it was pretty hard to assess how that would come about. But I didn't tend to any of them. I'm about to teach them the next morning in

00:36:47.909 - 00:37:07.870

the, uh, in the gym. I had a committee meeting the next morning. I'm chairman of the committee on minority group. The recruitment. Yeah, minority admission there. And uh we got out of that meeting just as the teach in was ending and I didn't hear any of

00:37:07.879 - 00:37:37.199

the speeches and I'm marked the demonstration. Um, and we have sort of, we all sort of milled around in front of water. I'll brief one thing you saw what you said, uh, that this is that one, I suppose it was a, it's a notorious remark instead

00:37:37.209 - 00:38:14.030

of taking a treat a life long, uh, that's come out and by students. Hey, and the other thing, actually, I'm not, uh, right. I said, well, he wants to demonstrate, let faculty and students participate and, uh, university bye. His good faith is fine resigning and allowing

00:38:14.040 - 00:38:55.590

his name to be recent and someone later to do this. Ok. Uh He said that the matter of the appointment was closed at the, at the rally, I think it, it has have any, you want to take any risk. It was that you mean by this,

00:38:55.600 - 00:39:15.830

that he had been willing to go through the process in front of the student that he would resign? Yeah, that he would have as many because the people, first of all the students were, were failing those people in terms of personality, been here long enough for

00:39:15.840 - 00:39:36.629

it to be coming and, and, and, and, and I think most of the people, it was gone at that point. Um It's hard to keep personality out of it. I mean, even though personality was, was really paramount to us, uh most of the people were involved,

00:39:36.639 - 00:40:08.139

hard to keep personality out of it. But uh if Masta had shown a willingness to do this dating student offices and I think the student that's on the committee uh would have any interest of sparing from where the turmoil have, have gone along with it. And

00:40:08.149 - 00:40:33.729

I think probably some members of the community, uh now, as I understand the committee, the committee was divided with was really kind of split and their attitudes. And I think even those who were opposed to Mastin, uh what if Masterson had so that we can do

00:40:33.739 - 00:40:56.159

it? I know that in fact, I know told me that he had tried to make arrangements with Master. He did and that he told Masterson that if he did, he thought that Masterson would have been, I think the switch carried him and the students were on

00:40:56.169 - 00:41:19.379

the whole. Well, I, I think in Italy, a great bit of too is sympathetic to Masterson's point. And, uh, oh, that was a, the desire to span intense. And, uh, as I said, I think he, I, I think if he had been willing to run any

00:41:19.389 - 00:41:38.550

kind of risk that the, the doctor, did you understand that doctor, doctor students would have a vote or that he would be willing that they should have the vote? Or I think they thought they had a vote. It was very unclear. I think he was willing

00:41:38.560 - 00:42:10.270

to let them have a vote. One of the things I understood though was a great reluctance finally by Bronson to, to allow the committee to sort of be a rubbish stand. II, I think he was perfectly right in that. But he, he really, as long as

00:42:10.280 - 00:42:37.060

it wasn't a process of collection that was to take place. Uh He uh he felt that the committee had been chosen by the faculty to select to, to involve in the selection process. But some process of ex post facto confirmation was, was not the appropriate function.

00:42:38.729 - 00:43:05.050

But I, I do think that if Masterson had handled it by expressing a willingness to go to, to the committee got the brother, but we were in a difficult spot too, even though it was the US, who, who uh was it like that? Well, our position

00:43:05.060 - 00:43:26.449

was, we had objected on principle and if he fulfill the principles, we, we, we couldn't have any injections, go running around saying that you personally dislike. I'm, I'm not trying to say that the motives were, were, were simply, I mean, I, I, when I went into,

00:43:26.459 - 00:43:39.570

to Remlinger, Remlinger said, uh, don't you know who it is? He said you're just objecting on the procedures, don't, you know, the man. And I said, I wouldn't care who was Saint Francis. I think the procedures are little but uh the, the, the two were sort

00:43:39.580 - 00:44:02.239

of intertwined. Uh Now I've never known why, why they use the procedures they did. I, I still suspect that they knew that Masterson couldn't get through on any other basis. Makes mouth a lot too. What uh uh what, what makes you think that he rather than

00:44:02.310 - 00:44:24.350

rest of? I think he, he knows the university. I just don't think that the bulk of some people on board really had any knowledge of much dealings with Malcolm blood. It just had more dealings with the universe. I think it's more interesting. How would, how would

00:44:24.360 - 00:44:42.750

he prices have interpreted the, uh, the many courtesies to, uh, Masterson when he left here? Would he have considered these insincere or just, uh, taking part in part? I had very little part of, he said, I don't know, how do you interpret it when uh when

00:44:42.760 - 00:45:10.550

anybody leaves any organization? I think uh these are normal amenities. But how would he have interpreted the ma this is leaving the deanship? I don't think pits are really effective and to the best of that anyone's knowledge because it did one knee and it didn't work

00:45:10.560 - 00:45:31.610

to me. Is that uh uh I am I interrupting your uh understanding correctly that uh the difficulty of Mason and, and Pitzer was, this was a personality continent or was there something deeper here? I don't know. I don't know. I uh I think it must have

00:45:31.620 - 00:46:10.969

been personality, maybe some argument about method. OK. Then there were things, for example, mashes and support. Hi and b yes, who uh that must have been a conflict left them both pretty sore. I know this. It was reported to me by one faculty member that was

00:46:11.000 - 00:46:40.489

asked about the possibility of mast is being made president pictures that you didn't think it could happen. He said if it did. He should get in contact with one faculty members said, well, I always thought he was a good friend of mine. I'm a friend of

00:46:40.600 - 00:46:58.199

your and the bone man. I think he ought to be president of the university. And I think this was a very wide and that's why I say that. I think of it must have known how, how strong we are. I must have known it was some

00:46:58.449 - 00:47:26.379

section. It was pretty notorious around the universe. Now, I may have put perhaps a construction on it that it was sciences versus the human. You can put whatever construction on if you want to. There was, there was a lot of, when Masterson spoke at the commencement

00:47:26.389 - 00:47:40.620

address. Do you think that invitation came primarily because of the, was it the year before or so? Do you think that invitation came primarily because of the influence of the board or is that someone else who arranged that? Oh, I think it's a courtesy. You extend

00:47:40.629 - 00:48:03.760

the man and, uh, II, I don't wanna leave the impression that Mason was somehow driven out of here, uh, Parton pet or something. He wasn't, he took the position of Chattanooga. And it was, as I understand it, the first rights graduate who ever to be president

00:48:03.770 - 00:48:23.719

of the university and so forth. I think, uh, I don't think anyone disapproved of the election of Masters on his commencement speak. No one. We was this election as president I see. Uh, but no, and I don't think anyone could have foreseen at that point what

00:48:23.729 - 00:48:45.689

later happened, the, the, the, the departure of Kitson. Now, I knew Pitzer had, had several opportunities to leave, I guess, some pretty good ones and had always turned them down. So nobody just, just events took place that it may well be that by his speech, by

00:48:45.699 - 00:49:03.350

his appearance here at Masterson cemented relations with the boy so that he was an amen to mind when they gotta look for a new president. But I don't think they anticipate, well, maybe I'm just uh chasing a, a Harris trail or something here. But I uh

00:49:03.360 - 00:49:22.379

I was um trying to zero in on um make sure if I understood the um the reasoning that uh that the board must have selected Masterson in the manner that it did because they knew of the opposition to him. If they did it openly that they,

00:49:22.389 - 00:49:55.350

that the faculty committee would, no, that they knew that the faculty committee would not prove of this if they um oral, I suppose they found it. Um It's the only way you can make sense of uh of an act which, which otherwise was so senseless there.

00:49:55.360 - 00:50:13.429

As I understand there were no uh uh no explanations of their uh no uh no, the only explanation that was made as I remember was, was Alan said they felt they didn't have time that things were too urgent and yet it was some two weeks from

00:50:13.439 - 00:50:39.320

the time I think, made their approach till the time when they were gonna make, you know, uh, and Alan himself said, he knows that sounds a little feeble. So I just can understand on any other g is anything going out, uh, in your mind, particularly from,

00:50:39.330 - 00:51:03.800

uh, Masterson's, uh, speaking to the students at noon following the press conference? That'd be right after the march. Uh I just felt he blew it that they were smart enough to know that on the big issues, he, he hadn't said anything that he said that the

00:51:03.810 - 00:51:24.709

decision of the board is final and a matter of the appointment is closed. Uh I can't remember his exact words, but I remember my, my general impression was that he really had said all the wrong things. He came out of, out of out there and uh

00:51:24.719 - 00:51:54.399

claimed to know nothing of the opposition to him, which may or may not be true, which he was rather doubtful since he was flown by the pressure, um, was pretty uncompromising, I thought on substantive issues and I thought he left the students very dis uh and

00:51:54.409 - 00:52:23.719

that's the first time I began to hear sort of rumbling from the students. We have one. What did you do after this meeting? Well, um as we hung around the campus talking probably till about 230 we listened to Master Sound and I talked to some students

00:52:23.729 - 00:52:56.979

and in fact got into an argument sorts with Paul Malloy, uh, cropping up on it, an ointment put on tape by his knees still from kowl. And, uh, he claimed that the, the people he said, you know, if you don't like mast, why don't you leave?

00:52:58.760 - 00:53:23.110

Good thought about that. Really didn't want to leave. I said that I don't wanna leave but, and I thought that, uh, I said I just don't want Mastin to come, but I'm here to do not. That's that I have no reason to leave. I was, I've

00:53:23.120 - 00:53:49.270

been in pretty good mood about things in the past three or four months. Even since pizza had my minority admissions, the minority admissions for the chair was functioning well, we were making progress on that front and I was very concerned about that. My department seemed to

00:53:49.280 - 00:54:15.530

have achieved a good deal of harmony. So, right. And I like writing. I like students. So uh I think he, he accused us of, of not being able to go anywhere else which fall risk. I think one of, one of, one of the things is that

00:54:16.139 - 00:54:38.320

some of the people who are most outspoken, I think that's sort of best professional options that sometimes happen. Uh But then, oh, we talked to students on and off. I talked to Salzburg for a while who at that time thought he was going to a meeting

00:54:38.330 - 00:55:09.780

with, with Masterson which which never came off. Uh And then finally I went home about 330 that afternoon. I don't know what we did that year. I can't remember doing much of anything radiologic. Nobody was, everybody was totally absorbed by your family. Uh, and then I

00:55:09.790 - 00:55:27.620

heard that Matson was closeted with the students. How did you interpret this? Why, why would he be close with the students? Uh, and rather than with, uh, Salzburg and the committee, uh, uh, he said he, he, it wasn't just the student members of the committee as

00:55:27.629 - 00:55:49.280

I understand that they were college presidents and so forth. Uh, as I understood it, uh, Boston really didn't want to, uh, use the committee to confirm, you know, in that way and I don't know what really happened. I think there was a good deal of signals

00:55:49.290 - 00:56:14.110

getting crossed, uh, people out of town. And II, I heard that Mason wanted to see, uh, I think Masterson felt that he always had better relations with students, the faculty and that if he was going to work his way back into the situation, uh, that the,

00:56:14.120 - 00:56:33.209

that the way in which he could do it best was, uh, good. Uh, are there any, were there any, uh, members of the faculty, uh, selection committee that, you know, of, who were out of town at the time? There are, what, six numbers at all? Yeah,

00:56:33.219 - 00:56:54.979

I can't, now, the pos, I think was a pound. They came back. But I didn't really, no, I guess I guess outside of the poo, did you get the idea that Proxen thought that, uh if Masterson either, uh even uh appeared informally uh with the, with

00:56:54.989 - 00:57:13.909

the members of the committee to perhaps discuss with them, his ideas and goals for, uh for um rice that this would amount to a, a confirmation of? Yeah, I think he felt that that any use of the committee other than for anything other than the purpose

00:57:13.919 - 00:57:42.770

for which it was selected would have been a mistake. Did you ever talk to Salzburg later? Uh, and get, uh, his impression of why he did not meet with Mattson that afternoon? You said that you, that he thought that he would, uh, I, I did speak

00:57:42.780 - 00:57:59.919

to him later and I think it was just, uh, a meeting that never came off sort of mutually. Uh, I think there was no eagerness on the part of Broxson to do it. And I think there wasn't much ss on the plot of Masters and to

00:57:59.939 - 00:58:19.929

do, I, I think Masterson didn't much like, didn't much like or trust her. Uh, he, he said to the students at one point that he would go before the committee, but he would have to judge whether they were objective towards him, whether they had a bias

00:58:20.139 - 00:58:42.860

against him. Uh, and I think, I think you felt that way, knowing the, uh, personal relationships that existed between the men on the committee and, and mattress and the, uh, who would you think he would have in mind as having a bias against the bones? Anyone

00:58:42.870 - 00:59:09.820

else? Possibly? I, I think he would have interpreted the reaction of boxing and Rimland her may be Salzburg as, as evidence of the point. That's my suspicion. I, I, I don't know what his relations were with, with, uh, with proxen, of course, because there are areas

00:59:09.949 - 00:59:39.550

they were both queens at the same time. For example, I don't know whether there was conflict there or not, but they're much different kinds of people. Broxson and pro and represents a kind of liberal faculty with which master pal sy and I don't know what his

00:59:39.560 - 01:00:07.620

relations were blood run. Uh I know, I know you of course, objected to the joints but, but I, I don't really know what was the, whether there was any background to it? I think that uh well, there, there was a great deal of p all over

01:00:07.629 - 01:00:31.919

the, on the first of, of people who, who had been here, people know, well, used to entertain one another with stories of the Master and day. You know, he, he had a very, I, I think a very notorious reputation. You mentioned moments ago, something that I'd

01:00:31.929 - 01:00:52.469

like to, uh to get more information on. You said that um Rotten represented the liberal sort of faculty that, um that Masterson didn't get along with. Uh what are some of the qualities that in the liberal mind that Masterson objects to and what, how do you

01:00:52.479 - 01:01:20.560

account for his reasons for objecting to them? Well, uh, I don't wanna leave the impression either that Masterson was on kind of hard nosed conservative, I think in many ways he, he, he would have seen himself as kind of moderate. Well, that was, it was, the

01:01:20.570 - 01:01:47.850

situation was moving away from, I think he had a very strong feelings about and very traditionalist feelings of the role of students, student discipline and so forth that all came out, of course, in, in, in its relations with Higginbotham and the appointment of Higginbotham. Uh I

01:01:47.860 - 01:02:14.679

think he also uh deferred to the community in a way that I would consider SUSA. Uh I suppose one of the things I have to honestly say is that the liberal faculty member would view heist as a kind of oasis in a very conservative region. While,

01:02:14.689 - 01:02:29.479

while a conservative would like to see rise of embodying the values of the region values that he himself would see is good, but I think that was part of it. And II, I don't wanna make too much of this. II, I don't wanna make Bronson seem

01:02:29.570 - 01:02:55.149

the champion of a faculty. Liberals. Bronson was a, was a very respected man. Uh I think that first of all, it will be the committee, although it contains some reasonably liberal people, was not a liberal committee nor would I view the people who were, who, who

01:02:55.159 - 01:03:11.270

were its members who were its liberal members as being among the more liberal members of the faculty. I'm not sure I follow you on that last one. The fact the committee was in general, not a liberal committee, but I think its, its members were pretty well

01:03:11.280 - 01:03:30.100

respected members of the university community as a whole. And though it had some people on it who were liberals, they were by no means among the most liberal members of the faculty, I mean, they were pretty moderate liberals in comparison to the range that existed in

01:03:30.110 - 01:03:51.550

the faculty. But I, I would put Watson pretty much middle of the road. OK. Remer and Salzburg and they were the liberal members of the church. But you see, this is something where, you know, that no one could have foreseen that there would be any kind

01:03:51.560 - 01:04:15.379

of any kind of split of this nature on the committee. I mean, I think all the assumptions were that we would select someone mutually acceptable uh to the board and uh to the faculty in any decisions, then the committee wasn't demanding of somebody who was liberal.

01:04:15.389 - 01:04:38.750

The liberals wouldn't demand somebody who was liberal. So everyone would speak pretty much with commonly. But that, that, that certainly at that point, I um I appreciate your comments on this. Well, let's see, we had left off in uh the end of the Saturday night's event.

01:04:38.760 - 01:04:56.870

Uh What was the first thing that you became aware of on uh Sunday morning regarding this, uh, whole, uh, issue. Well, I know the students had met with, uh, with Masterson, uh, and I made a couple of phone calls to find out what had happened there.

01:04:57.540 - 01:05:21.560

Did you? Well, I called Barry Camp and she told me that, uh, but they have found that as an objection. Just give me any reasons for that. Well, she felt that he was trying to use them, uh, and that, uh, oh, I guess he had shifted

01:05:21.570 - 01:05:52.429

from being, uh, very cordial to be rather threatening two, promising him more money for the colleges if he came in, warned them that, uh, whether they liked it or not, the trustees were gonna carry out their will. Uh, and, uh, his general objection to the committee

01:05:52.439 - 01:06:22.010

and to, to carrying on the kind of processes that, uh, were, were involved, were that they felt were this. So they said that their feeling had shifted from the procedures to man d when she used the word, uh, uh, she felt that he had been written

01:06:22.040 - 01:06:43.219

to them. Uh, did she elaborate on that or was that, is that what you had in mind when, uh, uh, he said that, uh, the board would, uh, carry out the decision regardless or one of them is willing to confirm it. But she said, Mason said

01:06:43.229 - 01:07:13.979

her balance said that they would close the turmoil they took that they think that was a threat. Well, it's not a threat. But I wouldn't want that included in anything unless one of the students would confirm that. Well, so then um did you talked to Barry

01:07:14.260 - 01:07:30.600

Kine? Who else did you talk to uh that morning? You said you talked to a couple? So, no, I talked, I guess I talked is that I didn't know much. This is a, a so there was a lot of phone going on going on during that.

01:07:31.290 - 01:07:54.020

I had my little girl to call on with me on the phone with that. Quite fuck that. What a great deal today with Minter uh Tomato Cell. Uh And then somebody called me, maybe it was scaring and uh said that some students were meeting, I guess

01:07:54.030 - 01:08:20.169

with where Cameron lived and uh they wanted some members of the faculty to come over there and we went around Barry Kaplan's husband, the other Barry Kaplan came over and picked me up and uh we went over there, we stopped and oh I, I think we

01:08:20.180 - 01:08:38.049

picked up David Minter Matao. Matao was over there when we got there and we tried to get hold of Lee Rudy and Blue Birds have a lot of faculty members, several and let's see, I ended up there with, with Minter and man was over there, but

01:08:38.060 - 01:08:53.758

they had already, but their group was breaking up when we got there and they had already prepared that statement, right? The statement, the report on the mass doesn't mean that makes sense the objective to the man. So what did you think of the preparation of that

01:08:53.769 - 01:09:10.568

statement? I mean, how, what was your impression of their? OK, then uh what the pros? No, no, on this thing, I, I thought that it was sort of a no ball game in a sense because it had really the attack to the Mas is in itself

01:09:11.349 - 01:09:35.890

and you had a very real sense of, at that point, I felt that, that, that was, that was in many ways the key that, uh, and I think it explained what happened in the election, uh, solidarity. I think the time. So I, I felt that it

01:09:35.899 - 01:09:56.399

became a question that we didn't want me. And I also, uh, have a growing sense that, uh, that people had gone very far and it was gonna be very hard to go back. So I felt that, uh, I see a chance that we were gonna win.

01:09:57.160 - 01:10:18.060

Mhm. And things are just getting mobilized now, everything going your way. I, I really think, I think my, my continuing sense during the whole thing is, is that everything worked for us, everything went right for us and everything went wrong for them. Even Masterson going back

01:10:18.069 - 01:10:40.950

to Chattanooga at that point, uh, and what the students felt with it, they just nickle of them and they felt that count very, uh, I'd like to, um, well, we have time to open that question. Now. How do you account for that some sudden departure. Uh,

01:10:40.959 - 01:11:11.359

on that Sunday morning, I think it was a lot of, it wasn't one what really felt that the situation was different. I was told by the students that he was, uh, very raffled that night. Obviously, in a lot of it is becoming rather unraveled. Now, masts

01:11:11.609 - 01:11:38.200

in is by nature is very excitable. I said when he would get angry face would turn red and the veins would stick out. Yeah. And I think, I think, uh, part of the reason for that, uh, was his wife feeling that, uh, she had to go

01:11:38.209 - 01:11:56.740

back and collect them. Did anyone suggest at that time that maybe he was, uh, maybe he was faulty or he was going back to see if he, what he could receive? No, I don't think anyone felt that way at that time because the last thing you

01:11:56.750 - 01:12:30.310

said to scan, uh, I'm going back to Chattanooga. All, no one, no one felt that, uh, that this was a permanent change. You spoke with, uh, Doctor Salsbury that morning? Did, uh, did he ever have a minute? He, he had spoken to Mrs Masterson, I guess

01:12:30.319 - 01:12:52.620

that morning, she was very upset and this is why, uh, and, and indicated that the, and this is, this is why I think she was a very instrumental factor because he was worried about his state of health or because me has never had any, uh, instant

01:12:52.629 - 01:13:18.890

heart right now. I don't know, I don't think, I think she was young if I may add this, I, I don't think that she was anxious for him to step into a situation which was likely to be variant. I think she was concerned for his health

01:13:18.899 - 01:13:44.350

and I think she was concerned about his welfare. Oh, we're pausing here. I'm gonna go ahead and flip this tape over. Uh, so that we won't have to interrupt again. This is a continuation of the interview with uh Doctor Ellen Grobe tape 13 side two now

01:13:44.359 - 01:14:08.899

set the vial to zero. OK. We have that taken care of. Uh So we were talking about um uh Doctor Masterson's uh wife and his uh and her concern for uh for his well being. And then uh we left you at uh Walker Skin's uh apartment

01:14:08.910 - 01:14:31.100

and they had uh Warren Scarin and uh drafted and approved of the uh of the, there was no approval on my part. I mean, they were already out distributing it and I saw a copy. Uh and at that point, we planted it petition which never really

01:14:31.109 - 01:14:49.660

got off the ground. Uh Where did it come way to theirs? Now, that never got off the ground documentary. And I did that uh that never got off the ground simply because it was Sunday and there was nobody around to sign it. And then by then

01:14:49.669 - 01:15:15.540

the this other process, this election processor then floating process would not set into motion we went from there, we went over to doctor Walls who told us about this meeting that was going to be held. Your, then this is Sunday evening, uh, the meeting of, of

01:15:15.549 - 01:15:40.419

what senior people and department has was sort of a pickup group, but with Dean Gordon there. And, uh, so there was here again, not much to do other than to wait. And then I got a call, I can't remember what time the call was uh asking

01:15:40.430 - 01:16:03.709

you to come to Hampson for this general meeting Sunday night. And uh I guess I found out from, from Doctor Ward that the decisions that had been made at that meeting, which was a, which was a very key meeting. It was first of all, avoid represent

01:16:03.720 - 01:16:33.040

the faculty, the spokesman for the faculty. Uh Secondly, the decision to have the university wide meetings and third, the decision to hope. Uh then I went on to Hanson that evening and I went, that's a war word for me. French department. We need this board meeting.

01:16:33.049 - 01:16:56.140

Um Did you uh understand that Doctor Gordon uh would have any idea of what the result is. The result might be? Everybody knew everybody know that, that the opposition to mass and wasn't this point overwhelmingly and the vote with Millie to uh to demonstrate what everyone

01:16:56.149 - 01:17:17.330

needed to be. I think we had to prove uh that the opposition was not overwhelming. Uh There was no way to demonstrate it on uh simply saying that a lot of people don't want them and even the vote at the first faculty meeting, I heard some

01:17:17.339 - 01:17:33.740

people say, well, a great many faculty members weren't there and so forth and so on. Actually, the vote did not represent even half the faculty. And I think one thing that had happened in the interval was that a number of faculty members I know who voted

01:17:33.750 - 01:18:02.620

against the original uh motion on Friday change their votes by that Monday. Yeah. Who uh and I think the reasons for that. Well, first of all, I think a number of people uh may well have not want to do this very much. Uh But uh again,

01:18:02.629 - 01:18:18.000

iii, I don't know if I really want to say that, but I think, I think a great many people felt that fine uh that, that they didn't want to jeopardize the University on Friday. Uh But by Sunday, the split and division was so clear and the

01:18:18.009 - 01:18:42.290

board and the uh oh and Mason himself had had alienated such a large portion of the faculty that the uh that the numbers increased greatly. And indeed, to answer this charge that we weren't, that was unrepresentative. We called up people who are on leave uh and

01:18:42.299 - 01:19:02.939

ask them to telegraph their, send the telegram with their vote on the issue. And uh a number of Emeritus people turned up to in our department, uh Doctor mckillop came there and he felt very strongly against the appointment of Master Professor Williams. Uh both of whom,

01:19:06.569 - 01:19:36.759

very strong antagonism too to the mat that I think finally to, to the math. So uh that I think that meeting confirmed what we all felt. Uh a lot of departments had lined up very solid maintenance, mass at this point, geology, economics, and uh a great

01:19:36.770 - 01:19:57.560

many of the younger faculty uh who weren't here when mass at this point had become really pretty worked up over everything that was going on. Whereas initially I think they, they had taken a much more watchful attitude. Oh, I think this again, as I said, everything

01:19:57.569 - 01:20:30.930

worked for us. It went wrong for them and, and the, uh general effect of things. Well, to, to increase the opposition events simply, uh increase the, substantially, the opposition to that the, um, the Gordon meeting, um, was that over with by the time the uh college

01:20:30.939 - 01:20:51.609

meetings began? Or were these two things? The Gordon meeting actually was the place where I think that I understand the college meetings were formulated. It was in the, it was, I think it started at four, ended at 630. I know, I, I cold water after that,

01:20:55.180 - 01:21:15.399

uh, that the meeting had gone. Well, I think everyone was particularly pleased at, at, at Gordon's decision to, to represent the faculty good. Both then we get back to uh what you began to discuss and that's the Hanson College meeting that you're attending, I went over

01:21:15.439 - 01:21:44.560

to Hanson and, uh, it was, uh, a very strongly anti Masterson kind of meeting, uh, Jim body who was the president reported on what had taken place when they spoke to Masterson and explained, uh, his opposition to that system. Then Norbeck got up and, uh, won

01:21:44.569 - 01:22:13.680

against the strike and you only began, uh, becoming concerned over this issue, pretty conservative stance. Uh, how was that talk received by the students? I mean, by the, well, by the people there uh politely, I don't, I'm not afraid of anyone challenging the Well, I think,

01:22:14.970 - 01:22:48.709

no, I think it was a general feeling it wasn't very relevant to and didn't represent anyone's feelings other than nor so uh uh then Gruber spoke at one point, I spoke in duct spoke, uh I do and uh the physics department very strongly anti ma uh

01:22:48.720 - 01:23:07.100

and, and, and John Adams spoke uh and made a long speech uh criticizing critical of the procedures and critical of the man and saying that rice really could and should do better than, than Masterson. And uh I think the feeling of Hanson was, was at the

01:23:07.109 - 01:23:28.799

end of the evening, the only, the only real question that ever emerged was the possibility of uh of some kind of serious of, of students abstaining because they didn't felt that they weren't equipped to, to judge. And we argued that uh there was evidence and you

01:23:28.810 - 01:23:46.200

had to assess the evidence and make the decision just as you made it on anything else on the grounds of what you knew his reputation as a scholar, uh, his, uh, his conduct is what we could say about his conduct is DVD and so forth. I

01:23:46.209 - 01:24:05.750

don't think anybody in the course of, of these couple of days have dragged out too many of the dead bodies that were strewn around. So, nobody, I don't, I, I don't think, uh, anything ever got terribly personal. Uh, I don't think anybody, I think few people

01:24:05.759 - 01:24:33.839

voiced their personal objection. So, uh, on the whole Hanson, the, the students seem to me pretty strongly siding the faculty in this matter and the faculty seemed reasonably for none of us. I shouldn't say unanimous, but, uh, overwhelmingly opposed to mass and overwhelmingly opposed to the

01:24:33.850 - 01:25:01.970

way the board had acted. The only disturbing note that was ever sounded during the course of all this was the possibility of some kind of deal which might be worked out which would be, uh allowing Masson to be present but making structural changes, uh, having a

01:25:01.979 - 01:25:24.180

faculty senate which would have much of the power of the university vested in it. And, uh, uh, so that Mastin would be reduced to some kind of figurehead. And I heard a number of people talk about this but it never really got off the ground. I,

01:25:24.189 - 01:25:46.140

I, at the time said, uh, if you want a faculty senate, you want more faculty participation, you get a president who's for those things. And I said Mason was just a wrong person to, to try to get into a set. Uh After, after the Hanson meeting,

01:25:46.149 - 01:26:00.879

some students came up and asked if I asked me if I would speak with Brown. Uh I guess they were having something of a problem with, about students saying they were going to Spain. And so I went over there and I gave a little pep talk.

01:26:01.810 - 01:26:24.290

Um and then I went home, a couple of old students of mine called up to try to learn what, what was going on. And I gave him of course an account of it. I think some of them felt that and I think this was probably a

01:26:24.299 - 01:26:53.700

misinterpretation that a great many people made that it was some sort of science, humanities split which, which never was part of anyone's. Well, let me see if I can finish events. Monday morning, I had my English 250 class where we talk mainly about um the mass

01:26:53.709 - 01:27:19.399

to some affair. And uh I spoke a little bit upon the, the relationship with the trustees to the university and how it seemed to me that uh that a university couldn't be run by a kind of system of absentee lab autism. That was uh that when

01:27:19.410 - 01:27:43.819

the landlord showed up, he showed up in some arbitrary way and didn't really understand uh the tenants that he hadn't, that he hadn't seen and, uh, then we had our department meeting and that was very short. There was no discussion. I was like, I think the

01:27:43.830 - 01:28:11.850

vote was unanimously against Master and the board, both in terms of procedure and in terms of choice. And then I spoke once more. I spoke at the meeting of graduate students that afternoon. I guess it was from about 11 on, I've been asked to speak, presented

01:28:11.859 - 01:28:42.700

what I felt were the major objections to them to Mastin and they went and voted and I don't remember what happened on Monday night and we did much of anything. I think everyone had a terrific sense of release. Everybody was just drained was a very widespread

01:28:42.709 - 01:28:56.810

feeling uh on Monday or that evening or that afternoon, uh when the voting was getting underway and it seemed like the turnout was going to be pretty complete. Was, was there very much expectation that that Messer might resign very shortly. There was a great deal of

01:28:56.819 - 01:29:14.279

the vision. I felt mass someone was on. Uh I just felt he wasn't a fool. Uh And that no man could, that you couldn't run a university by martial law. Uh Now a lot of people didn't feel this one. A lot of people felt that the

01:29:14.290 - 01:29:31.020

same would say they know Bill Masterson and he's a very ambitious man and he wants to be president of Rice and uh and nothing is going to stop them. And I said, I, I didn't think so. I, I felt, uh, at the time, uh, I don't

01:29:31.029 - 01:29:57.709

like Masterson but he's, you know, not, uh, uh some kind of ogre or some, some beast from another world. Uh uh He's, he's, he's an ambitious man and an impulsive man. Uh, a man who is very dangerous to cross. But, uh, I think, uh, still very

01:29:57.720 - 01:30:20.970

much a human being, uh, and they're full and I think the situation was impossible. I've been told that some people had contacted him uh or who, who know him well, OK. And uh who, who were friends of his and said that they felt that the situation

01:30:20.979 - 01:30:49.609

was just untenable. And so I really did expect him to, to resign. On the other hand, I felt that the, that the board with, with, with much, much less a sense of the university, uh What I think I felt that the decision really was Masterson, that

01:30:49.620 - 01:31:04.910

the board would not say uh to get themselves out of a jam ask Masterson to resign. Nor did I feel that this would be proper for them. So I felt that the decision had to be Masterson. But you felt that if he resigned, the board wouldn't

01:31:04.930 - 01:31:30.899

uh wouldn't hold him to his agreement by, I didn't see how they really could. I didn't see how, what uh knowing the sentiment um throughout the departments. What, what would you estimate to be the uh vote ratio, the back of the 80 to 90% were again

01:31:30.910 - 01:31:59.390

against the procedure, virtual unanimity and against the choice, 80 to 90% to um sum up the uh significance of this whole uh series of events. Uh What do you think it is done four or two r this four day weekend? I don't know, very hot. I

01:31:59.399 - 01:32:21.419

think it kept masks from being present. And I think that's a, that is not a symbolic, even uh symbolic uh element in all of this. I think it's a very real element. I think he uh he would have been a very unfortunate choice as president essentially

01:32:21.430 - 01:32:34.950

because so many people didn't get on with him. So many people felt they couldn't work with him. People who, when they heard of the choice told me that they're gonna start looking for a job and these were the kinds of people who uh who, who's leaving

01:32:34.959 - 01:32:55.549

with me to real lo to us. Oh, sure, because these of course, are the only kinds of people who can ever talk in terms of uh people of national, some cut some kind of national figure. Uh a good many people felt that they, they would not

01:32:55.560 - 01:33:23.459

stay on with masks. I'm afraid that apart from that fact, the most depressing part of the whole mestas and uh episode is that it totally made us very aware of the existence and the character of the board. Uh and, and on that score, nobody is very

01:33:23.470 - 01:33:50.810

optimistic. Uh It's uh it's a deeply conservative board. It's a board that has very little relationship to the faculty, uh a board that seems to have very little sympathy with the faculty or with students. Um uh and uh I don't know, o over, over the long

01:33:51.589 - 01:34:22.180

uh four, uh the meaning of the episode, uh the episode may simply be an episode uh in a kind of historical pattern that rice was going to enter and which was going to be a kind of retreat from national goals. Uh uh a growing conservatism about

01:34:22.189 - 01:34:45.160

student affairs minority groups uh AAA resistance to change. Uh And I think all of these things are, are going to severely damage rice. I think uh I have a lot, I have a lot of regard for the university. I have a lot of regard for the

01:34:45.169 - 01:35:12.439

students, certainly. Uh And I think we're in an enviable position here in many respects. I think we have an intelligent student body, a student party that uh with, with, with very few uh disruptive forces in it. Uh And yet uh a student party that uh that

01:35:12.450 - 01:35:30.669

can, that can make independent judgments. Uh But, but I felt I felt that we could uh sort of have a revolution by course of war uh that it make the changes in the institutional structure that would be necessary pretty peacefully. And uh I think one of

01:35:30.680 - 01:35:56.359

the uh happiest aspects of uh of the Masterson episode was the behavior of the student leadership and uh the uh the willingness of the students to listen to the opinions of the faculty and, and it it matters where the students then have sufficient information to, to

01:35:56.370 - 01:36:22.439

accept faculty judgments. But I think that uh that much of this is due to the kind of atmosphere that have been built up in the university over the uh last couple of years during the pitcher admin, uh I think the atmosphere was kind of moderately progressive,

01:36:23.229 - 01:36:51.870

uh with no uh uh violent demands for change, but at the same time with no violent obstructions so that you could work pretty harmoniously. And I think that's all pretty likely to go. I think the character refines, it is likely to all be considerable because, uh,

01:36:55.759 - 01:37:17.279

I don't think, I don't think the board wants a president who, uh who would continue in the earlier. I think they will. A lot of things came together that were most unfortunate. I, I think many people have said to me that the composition of the board

01:37:17.290 - 01:37:35.529

changed and that we really lost, uh some people who have pretty good knowledge of the faculty and a pretty good understanding of the university like your friend, uh, and uh Mr Razor. Uh and, and they felt that these things would not have happened, uh if Mr

01:37:35.540 - 01:37:58.160

Brown and Mr Rays were on the boy. So we had a fairly new board uh without much understanding of the boy's relations with the faculty, we had this sudden vacuum created uh and all of this converged at a time of all this campus turmoil uh and

01:37:58.169 - 01:38:32.339

created a desire on the board to sort of forestall turmoil which really didn't exist at the university. I think uh the university was that pretty good. But I don't know, uh of course, in the, and the immediate aftermath of the up events, uh everyone sort of

01:38:32.350 - 01:38:53.149

felt that there had been a victory of great consequence. And I think that, I think the victory was real, I think in many ways, Masterson, because of his personal qualities, it would have been the worst appointment of the kind that the board would be likely to

01:38:53.160 - 01:39:13.540

make. So I, I think, uh, and, and, and also he would, he would, he would enter, uh, the university was a terrific backlog and ill will, does this mean that uh anybody at the board gets now will have to be so much better that they'll be

01:39:13.549 - 01:39:34.080

more acceptable? Uh I think he'll come in, uh, with advantages. He might, he might in the end, uh, be worse. Uh Madison wasn't, in some ways, wasn't, was a fairly good administrator and he was he Matic and I had a, I thought had a good mind

01:39:34.089 - 01:40:02.080

for administration. Uh, and, uh, you might have a person without these qualities. But what I really mean by that is that we knew immediately the, the things that were wrong with Mastin and the uh the divisions between master and a substantial portion of the faculty was

01:40:02.089 - 01:40:22.470

so great that it would have tremendously upset the university very, very, very quickly. Uh you may end up with a situation over, over a period of time, which is as bad as anything masin could, could have good dose. But it's, it's very difficult uh uh to

01:40:22.479 - 01:40:43.410

work with a, with a man who at the time of his appointment, your relationship is one of mutual. I will. Uh So I think that would, and again, particularly at this, at this point in history, the university could have gotten themselves caught in a very explosive

01:40:43.419 - 01:41:04.560

system. I've already heard that technology to lose a lot of cycles and I, I, I'm sure they would have lost her. I'm sure a great many people help their positions to be just absolutely, you don't think there's any way that, you know, if he had a

01:41:04.609 - 01:41:20.020

between now and then he could have approached these individually and done anything to reassure them as well. I don't think he could have, I don't think you can go away with the past. I don't think he would have, I mean, I don't think that's part of

01:41:20.029 - 01:41:42.259

one's characters. I'm sure it is a part of mass conception. I realize I've kept you some time and I had just one more question uh um before uh before we uh quit. Um Most of the things that we talked about, uh as far as is your

01:41:42.270 - 01:42:01.310

uh uh evaluation of the Masterson as an administrator have occurred during the time that he was here now, since that time, he left his, I understand in 1963 or so. I mean, no, since 1965 he's been in a, he's been the public administrator uh university which

01:42:01.319 - 01:42:14.419

uh is a different view of the world and being native humanities. And also during this last four years, there's been a tremendous increase in the uh in the student movements throughout this country and throughout the world. Do you think it's possible knowing Masterson as you do

01:42:14.430 - 01:42:34.000

that he could have learned from these two different perceptions? No, I don't really uh let me say, first of all, uh I don't want to sound like an academic snob. But uh if rice is, is one thing as the University of the first rank Chattanooga is

01:42:34.009 - 01:42:58.500

very clearly a, a kind of second or third right place. And I think it, in fact, I've been told it's subject to none of the pressures by an institution uh like rice or something. Uh You just have a different kind of student body. Iii I and

01:42:58.509 - 01:43:26.310

master in speech here was not a, a speech that would give anyone comfort about him, future president of the university. He, he emphasized uh the university is having a tradition of a kind of intellectual elite and so forth. And indeed some disengagement from uh an old

01:43:26.319 - 01:43:51.229

race tradition that needs to be, uh, somewhat modified. But, uh, no, I, I really, I couldn't buy this was suggested in my, uh, Mr Allen that he changed, but it's just great failings were personal failings that seems to be very hard to change. Uh, would, would,

01:43:51.240 - 01:44:08.439

the only thing I suspect happened to Chattanooga is he had no restraining authority there. Uh, and so he could do pretty much as he pleased. Uh, at least here, you know, had a quarter of further appeal. He said that Mr Allen had made this statement that

01:44:08.450 - 01:44:28.930

maybe he had, well, he said, the know, with Dean, uh, he Masterson had made some enemies and, uh, done some things. Uh, I remember he said things he shouldn't have but, uh, that now he's been president of a university and you get new responsibilities and it

01:44:28.939 - 01:44:50.560

changes and you see, you can't act in the same old way. Uh, I must say, I don't know why anyone would want to take that risk finally. Um, the, that the old dog has been taught new tricks. Well, I really didn't mean to imply that as

01:44:50.569 - 01:45:10.830

much as, as, uh, do you think it's possible for Masin as a human being to learn from new situations? I think his behavior here, even in the brief time he was here, uh, really reflected his character. Uh, he, uh, as I said, I think, uh, he

01:45:10.839 - 01:45:32.890

wasn't, he wasn't willing to run the risks of, uh, of dealing of of presenting himself to the students and the faculty. Uh He wasn't uh uh he, he had been put in by uh what any faculty member would, would regard as improper procedures. He, he was

01:45:32.899 - 01:45:55.220

never willing to question those procedures. Uh He, he sought the easy way out. Uh He blamed the problems on a failure of communication. Uh And it seems to me there was no failure of communication and communication. So that's very clear. Uh There was uh there was,

01:45:55.229 - 01:46:23.080

there was a failure, there was a great procedural failure. And I think Masterson uh also knew people who uh was un willing to, to believe people in the faculty would judge objectively and fairly. That's why he left, left himself about in, in, in, in any suggested

01:46:23.089 - 01:46:43.850

meeting would be uh I would add this, I think it probably would probably put on top by the board who were an ovarian s at what was going on. But I think my, in the one thing, the boy then, no, and that is as, as, as

01:46:43.859 - 01:47:08.149

president of the university, the board couldn't go out there and the corner to keep the the university going. Uh That uh you, you could not run a um you know, of, of antagonism of the kind that, that was threatened. I think one of the sad things

01:47:08.589 - 01:47:30.189

and I've always felt this, yeah, so, but not sure, not have enemies, but I don't think he knew how much he was disliked as the, I think that's a hard thing for a man to know that, uh, that people, you may know that people would dislike

01:47:30.200 - 01:47:53.790

you but, uh, you, you're, you're not really aware of people you haven't followed with and that's on, you love it just like you and feel you shouldn't be present if, you know, I think what happened, the vote and for the people who call themselves. So we

01:47:53.799 - 01:48:33.330

made a win a kind of objection above one to a 31 segment of uh of the faculties you deal with. And I mean, the real personal tragedy, I, no, no, they come on. I said to him, uh you, you said at first that uh you

01:48:33.410 - 01:49:06.270

want to talk about it in the context of the animal doesn't make, I suspect in many ways it was probably kind of unrelated accept that is probably furnished a certain amount of impetus to what we did. And the repeatedly a response that was not particularly from

01:49:06.279 - 01:49:34.250

the students. Uh It was there, it was, it was there with a ton of pressure. Uh the, the existence of the whole quest that ST in mind why the fact that your participation clearly aggravated what the uh what the point uh at a, at a, at

01:49:34.259 - 01:49:53.509

a time, uh whenever university is seeking greater rights to suddenly have what you assume to be your right. And everyone assumed that the board would meet, would meet with the committee, not anticipating any of this, uh, I think at a time when everyone to, to, to

01:49:53.520 - 01:50:16.290

see rights that you felt that you had, uh, denied you, uh, taken away, uh, was, was, was just one thing. But, uh, I, I think the, the, the relationship of it too, I think the board will view it differently, the board will view this as, uh,

01:50:17.229 - 01:50:45.600

as their troubles at rise, you know, and link it to what kind of national trends and maybe see, uh, the hand of, of radicals in it and so forth. I know one. Well, I really appreciate the time you've given, uh, the person in there. I realize

01:50:45.609 - 01:51:01.899

that, uh, we're probably eating well here in case we need to get back with you with any further questions later on in the summer. Are there large blocks of time you'll be on there? Uh, probably for about 10 days and somewhere around the beginning of August

01:51:01.910 - 01:51:20.129

probably gone. But other than that, not even, I need to, I need to get the pen. Was there anything else that you'd like to say before I can off the record for the session? I don't think so. How much do you have any other questions you

01:51:20.140 - 01:51:33.450

wanna ask? No, I, uh, actually, I think we've covered everything in, in considerable de the time is now 340. That's the tape. The position is 142.