00:00:00.680 - 00:00:26.239

Mrs Polly Moore. Today is uh September 23rd, 1969. The time is uh 345. This is uh oral history interview number 64. We're on take 28 side one. Uh Now it's at the dollar zero. Uh, the interviewee today is Doctor uh Ellen J Chapman, uh, vice president

00:00:26.250 - 00:00:45.729

of the administration, uh, uh, Doctor Chapman, can I ask you just to give me your name and uh, business address so I can check this microphone. Alan J Chapman 205. Love Hall. All right, Doctor Chapman. Um, just for the record. I'd, I'd like to, uh, reiterate

00:00:45.740 - 00:01:01.270

just a couple of uh, things I was saying before we began the, uh, recording. Uh I was giving you something of an overview of what we've been looking for in these interviews, uh, to start with. Uh, could you tell me what meant, uh, to you personally

00:01:01.279 - 00:01:22.860

or how you reacted when, um, you heard that, uh, Kenneth Fisher resigned. What kind of thoughts went through your mind about, uh, what qualities his successor would have to have? Well, it was a shock because I didn't expect him to, to leave. Uh, and I think

00:01:22.870 - 00:01:40.230

I just at a loss as to, you know, what course the university would take in finding a new president. What sort of man he would be been through it once, once before. Yes. Yes, I was on the committee then too. Yeah, I hope you interested hearing

00:01:40.239 - 00:02:00.019

about that. Uh, um, at the time, doctor pitcher was selected, how much uh coordinations was there between say the board search committee and the uh the faculty committee? Well, there was a good deal. We met fairly regularly with Mr Razer who was chairman of the board

00:02:01.800 - 00:02:28.570

committee and discuss possible candidates. October dossier. We have our opinions. Mhm. But it was kind of clear to us when they decided who the man would be, but everybody was in agreement that he was an excellent candidate. Curiously, Masterson was on that committee too. Yeah. Were

00:02:28.580 - 00:02:47.350

there any uh serious differences of opinion between the advisory committee and the uh board and uh what they were looking for at that time? But those were different times, of course. So there wasn't really any very strong feelings on the campus and part of the faculty

00:02:47.360 - 00:03:08.179

that they would have a, a strong effect on the decision anyway. And they were pleased that a number of faculty were involved. How was the faculty committee at that time chosen? It was just appointed by the board? I see. Were these people mainly from administration or

00:03:08.190 - 00:03:29.229

from department heads or um, the members of the faculty committee then. No, they were just a selection of faculty. They were from the administration. We only had one president and one dean in those days. That was the administration. Oh, no, that's not right. We did have

00:03:29.330 - 00:03:50.190

an engineer in humanities. Let's see. Would that uh was Doctor Brown on that or was he not de no, in fact, he was on sabbatical leave that year. He wasn't even here. Uh How was the faculty uh advisory committee selected in this, in this time? It

00:03:50.199 - 00:04:08.600

was by an election of the faculty. Was there any reason why the faculty council wasn't used? Well, it was kind of funny, the, the board invited the faculty to form a committee and Dean Gordon brought this before the faculty council and they were trying to decide

00:04:08.610 - 00:04:25.059

how the committee should be formed. And I think they're a little reluctant to say, well, we'll do it. So the only other alternative was to say, well, let's have an election. So that's what they did was the, was the implica implication uh that the board wanted

00:04:25.070 - 00:04:47.040

a special committee elected just for this purpose? Uh Yeah, or I don't know, elected, but they, they invited the faculty to form advisory committee. Were there any duplications of membership between the uh the faculty? Well, I know there were some uh between the faculty council and

00:04:47.049 - 00:05:19.220

the faculty advisory committee. Let's see, you were on both, bro was on both topazio. Let's see. Uh I don't believe he was on the Factory Counsel Remlinger was. Remlinger was uh and Salzburg, I guess, was the other one, I guess is every, he may still have

00:05:19.230 - 00:05:42.010

been on the faculty counselor very recently. So I can't remember. So she's a frequent member of the faculty council is the faculty council elected every year or so. Or it's a rotating couple go off each year in a funny sequence. I don't quite remember. Well, uh

00:05:42.019 - 00:06:01.609

after the committee, um well, I'd like to ask you this first. Uh Were you pleased to be on the committee or, or did this uh represent uh something of a chore? No, I thought it was a great idea. Not see in the future. Of course, sort

00:06:01.619 - 00:06:20.790

of thought it'd be about like last time. Of course, we recognized at the time, particularly the troubled pitcher got in when he went out to Stanford that we'll be very smart to get students involved. And so the faculty did that on their own volition. I to

00:06:21.089 - 00:06:43.339

student consultant. Did you ever have any executive sessions without the students or were they included from then on? No, they've made a meeting. How did you uh react to the caliber of students that were elected for this? All very good. I was impressed with him. Take

00:06:43.350 - 00:07:07.109

it seriously. How did the committee go about getting self organized? I don't know. Uh Well, person said they left a chair, they somehow met when I was out of town on NC A business and got phone calls and we're meeting, who do you vote for, for

00:07:07.119 - 00:07:30.239

chairman? And I didn't know who was, was nominated in my caster absentee ballot via my secretary. And I didn't really know what was, you know, how they happened to get together or who was proposed as chairman or what do you have a special reaction when you

00:07:30.250 - 00:07:56.140

found out uh who had gotten the tumor? No, I've done Franz very well. He's been in my department when I was chairman 15 years, something like that. A lot of respect for and ability as the uh meetings went on and you uh look at the associations

00:07:56.149 - 00:08:22.649

of the various candidates. Uh Were you aware of any uh differences of, uh, of uh outlook or predisposition uh within the committee itself about what they wanted in the way that things look? No, not really, no excited words or no students, of course, were more concerned

00:08:22.660 - 00:08:42.580

with qualities of man as he might interact with students and the fact that they were more concerned with how he would change operating policies, it might affect them. But basically, there weren't, there weren't any differences that we want this kind of man or that kind of

00:08:42.590 - 00:09:06.969

man. Actually, in the early stages, the committee didn't do very much except, you know, send out a notice, send us some names and we didn't think there was any in a big hurry to do anything. We were just sort of rocking along, reading letters looking up

00:09:06.979 - 00:09:22.330

and who's who and that sort of thing, fairly casual. Did, uh, did you have an idea that, uh, the, the committee should be a little more aggressive? A little more assertive or, uh, did you think there was? Well, we all got concern after time went on

00:09:22.340 - 00:09:41.739

a little bit. Yeah, our constituents or whatever it was. We were wondering, were we doing anything and we ought to, ought to get on with it. But, and we didn't know what the board committee was doing since we'd never met with him. Mr Lubbock was sick

00:09:41.750 - 00:10:01.979

and so on. So things are sort of not develop much there. A little concern. More positive steps ought to be taken because we had the feeling nothing much was progressing. Did you have any conversations during this time with any of the members of the board, uh,

00:10:01.989 - 00:10:26.530

about, uh, um, about what they, any, any first, any individual person he was looking for in the way of person? No, Franz reported on some conversations he had had with Mr Lovett, but I hadn't talked to any, any board member about that. Did you get the

00:10:26.539 - 00:10:50.960

idea that money raising a bill was going to be an important factor? No, everybody assumed that's one of the things the president gets, gets involved in. But, uh, this, this quality was not down, play, play down is an important, uh, uh, characteristic. Well, we discussed it,

00:10:50.969 - 00:11:10.179

I think Fran reported that Mr Lovett said that wasn't a prime consideration the board would take care of fundraising. But that is what Fran said. Mr Lovett said. I don't really know. Oh, the fact you realize it, I mean, whether the president is a prime fundraiser

00:11:10.190 - 00:11:27.299

or a great scholar, he's still gonna get involved. B red and you can't avoid it. You mentioned, uh, whether he's a great scholar. Uh, did you consider this an important attribute of a good candidate that uh give me a, I thought he ought to have some

00:11:27.309 - 00:11:46.010

academic qualifications. I think the tradition, right? Should follow it up to this point was that the president was not only a great scholar, he was the best scholar on the campus or above anybody else. That's the way Mr Lovett was and that's where Mr Houston was.

00:11:46.020 - 00:12:04.479

That's where Mr Pitcher was and I served under all three of them. But hopefully, Rice has progressed to a point where we have enough distinguished scholars on the campus that it's damn hard to find a man that's head and shoulders above everybody. But he certainly, you

00:12:04.489 - 00:12:22.229

know, we all sort of agreed you wouldn't get a retired army general or, or something like that for a president should be a scholar. But whether he had to be smarter and more scholarly than anybody else on the campus, I think was not a prime factor.

00:12:29.059 - 00:12:50.539

Now, on the, on the basis of your own experience with the administrative talent and scholarly uh ability. Uh Do you find these uh two combined very often in the same individual? Well, it's, it's rare. It's rare. Would you consider prices Fitzer a good, uh a good

00:12:50.549 - 00:13:21.039

administrator in many ways, he had an amazing capacity to do many, many things. A lot of other people couldn't do, but in the same light he did, he attended too many details that many other administrators would delegate out, but he was able to do it just

00:13:21.049 - 00:13:47.210

because he had pretty amazing capacity to take care of these things. How did you uh feel about the list of names that uh was uh selected to send to the board? Is the samples or, or examples of the caliber of men you were considering. Uh How,

00:13:47.219 - 00:14:02.969

how did you view this list? No, it was a respectable list, but we cooked it up in a hurry just to have something to send to the board. Now, more has been made out of that list and was really there because we've gotten to the point

00:14:02.979 - 00:14:22.859

where we thought things were dragging. We need to take a positive step. Let's send some names to the board and all we've done was read the who's who description on these people were done. No other checking. And that other than the nomination letters that some people

00:14:22.869 - 00:14:41.419

had written, although some names came in, just written on a table napkin or something. Have you thought of? So, and So, so there is blessed little information, but we knew enough about the guys and these five would not be, I mean, they were respectable ones. Let's

00:14:42.440 - 00:15:02.859

send these names off and that at least produce a reaction. There is not real deep thought on the committee's part and selecting those five names out of the 60 yard. And we have, you could exactly say these were the top five or the top 10% or

00:15:02.869 - 00:15:40.159

the top. Uh Do you recall the reaction of the committee when uh Doctor Masterson's dossier came up for a conversation? Well, there were varied reactions. Some people were automatically disinclined to at least one person made it very strong statement on his behalf in his behind. Would

00:15:40.169 - 00:16:08.000

this have been Metro for, uh, do you recall the reactions among the students? Uh No, no, I only think one student there really knew him. That was the graduate student, Representative George Forestall. We've had him for history one time or 110, whatever it was. Did he

00:16:08.010 - 00:16:27.260

um make any, um, he made a comment to the fact that he didn't enjoy his class or thought it was boring. That was about it. It wasn't uh a substantive comment, but there was one objection, uh at least uttered by only one other member of the

00:16:27.270 - 00:16:52.049

committee. Uh Well, I don't know. I, there's, there's always been a feeling that the day p resigned that a possible candidate would be Bill Masterson and there are a lot of people that didn't think he would be a good candidate before this committee was formed. His

00:16:52.059 - 00:17:08.560

name was discussed informally around the campus. How did you feel about, uh, Doctor Masterson as a candidate in the committee at the time? I'd already got, always got along with him really well, but I didn't, of course, ever work for him. And that seems to make

00:17:08.569 - 00:17:36.310

a big difference in the way people felt. I do remember jotting down, uh, I don't think it would be a popular choice, although I like it turned out to be right. And also she comment that was money. Ok. Um, did you get the idea that, um,

00:17:37.560 - 00:17:59.510

that the reaction of the committee was strong enough to call it a veto? Uh, no, I'm not sure I'd call it a veto but there certainly wasn't a, you know, such a strong support that, that you say there is an overwhelming feeling in favor of it

00:17:59.520 - 00:18:28.099

by any means. I think when the automatic feelings that was in that committee and so on is you gotta get somebody from outside. What was that? Right. That's almost the first reaction I think anytime you change spread, why? I don't know. But, hm. Do you think

00:18:28.109 - 00:18:51.349

that, uh, generally it's, uh, difficult to promote from within, in the university? No, I don't know. I better. Oh, just to, uh, rephrase my question. Uh, do you think it's dangerous as a rule in the academic world? To promote from within, uh is, is this something

00:18:51.359 - 00:19:08.709

that isn't too frequently done or was this just a matter of, uh or something else like, uh the, the surgical procedure should include the outside world before it settles in on a willing to do a good job. Any group bought it. Even if they, they feel

00:19:08.719 - 00:19:27.989

that the man within is, is a good candidate and justification of the man himself has to be able to show that they looked the whole field over and decided this man internally is indeed the best considering all of the factors involved. I think that would be

00:19:28.000 - 00:19:56.339

the right thing to do to give him a broader based operation rather than just picking him without doing this, at least doing your homework in order to say that you had a lot of universities promote from with. And there are arguments both ways. I don't know

00:19:56.349 - 00:20:26.439

what's wrong coming on up to the uh to the time that uh the board made a decision. Uh How did you get this news that the board had acted? Uh Well, actually Franz called me the one night I can't remember which night it was and we

00:20:26.449 - 00:20:45.199

had to have a meeting in the committee the next day at a certain time. And I asked him what's up and he was upset. He finally told me what, what decision had been made and this would be a matter for our consideration. So I actually knew

00:20:45.209 - 00:21:08.209

about a little bit ahead. How did you react to that? What was your personal response to that news? We're gonna have problems. Not because of the man, I just thought because of the procedure and not so much that I personally objected to it just in the

00:21:08.219 - 00:21:32.130

day in which we were living. It's kind of obvious that that kind of procedure was gonna take off a flap of some sort. I say that doctor Bro was upset was uh he upset. Um Did, how did he convey this to you? Uh Did you get

00:21:32.140 - 00:21:55.329

the imprints? It was more about the uh procedure or about the selection as well about the trouble that you mean for us or it was partly procedure and the man, but we mainly procedure, but the man was in there. Did you have any ideas at this

00:21:55.339 - 00:22:14.859

time that uh it might be possible to reverse this decision or that it might be desirable to try? No, you got the idea that the contract had been lit and uh it had been signed and now it was a matter of, of a completed legal form

00:22:15.839 - 00:22:39.989

is irreversible. Yeah. Well, I was personally willing to accept what the board had done, although I still wish they had done it a different way, but it didn't occur to me to try and undo it. Was there anything in doctor Bro's uh manner that suggested that

00:22:40.000 - 00:22:59.979

he might like to uh pursue a course of action that would lead to that result. I'd be interested in your impressions about what happened at the meeting the next day. Uh What, what did you see going on? The meeting was the committee and the trustees. Well,

00:22:59.989 - 00:23:26.500

the trustees came to, to announce to the committee what their decision was. By that time, everybody knew what the announcement was, but they all tried to act surprised but, uh, they didn't, I think everybody was apprehensive as to what the consequences would be down the road.

00:23:30.459 - 00:24:10.030

Did anyone express any strong feelings? No, only on procedure. What effect did the committee's reaction have on Mr Allen and Mr Teague. Did you happen to watch them? Yeah, I didn't read anything particular there. Uh, I personally made an appeal to the committee that in, despite

00:24:10.040 - 00:24:30.880

of the fact that some may or may not like the procedure, may or may not like the man that for the good of the university and the viability of a good presidency. Why didn't we all endorse it? But, uh that idea wasn't taken up. So we

00:24:30.890 - 00:24:55.650

went on by endorsement. Uh Did you have in mind uh to, to take a vote of confidence? Uh or uh yeah, virtually, I guess I wouldn't worded it that last boat. How do you think the vote would have turned out at that point? I don't know.

00:24:55.660 - 00:25:17.209

It might have been split even 3 to 3. It might have been 442 against. I don't know. Um I say I was sort of the company man. I wanted to go with what the trustees had decided because I thought the alternative would be too messy. I'm

00:25:17.219 - 00:25:53.319

sure c deal would have voted for him. I believe, I don't know. I, I was just worried about the consequences would be if this committee was on the record is not endorse. And as it turns out, the committee didn't really endorse or not endorse, I can,

00:25:53.329 - 00:26:11.479

I can sense though that, that things might have been somewhat different. Had the committee endorsed the, the man? It would have been, no, it's still been a flap, I'm afraid. Yeah, maybe it had been worse. I don't know. I was just hoping to avoid my boy

00:26:11.640 - 00:26:41.020

the flat. Did anyone speak against, uh, a committee endorsement or, uh, did the conversation just change? It just changed. It didn't, uh, it wasn't a big issue and I wasn't a major topic. Conversation was committee endorsement or not. Did the students react to? They didn't say

00:26:41.030 - 00:27:14.510

too much other then? I think one or two of them responded to or ask the trustees if they didn't foresee some unfavorable reaction to the, the procedure. It was all on procedure. Ted, how did the, uh, how did the trustees, uh, respond to this, this question?

00:27:15.010 - 00:27:42.650

Whether they foresaw any reaction against the procedure? I don't recall really. I don't think they had a strong feeling and I think they thought everybody would, would accept from what you said. I, I've, I've gotten the idea, you might correct me on this. Uh, if I'm

00:27:42.660 - 00:28:11.670

wrong, uh, I've got the idea that, uh, the trustees were not particularly alarmed, uh, from what you were able to determine about, uh, the, um, the initial response to their selection. No, I don't think they, where a lot, I think they were unhappy that this committee,

00:28:13.189 - 00:28:38.510

a good number of the committee felt that they had been circumvented or, or not consulted because it certainly wasn't in the mind of the trustees to deliberately circumvent because they were certainly acting in, in good faith for the best universities. They saw it and they really

00:28:38.520 - 00:29:07.040

didn't realize that people would feel quite as strong as they did. There was certainly in my opinion, no, no devious intent on the trustee's part. Well, I guess the next thing that happened then, uh uh or were you engaged in the activities uh on this question,

00:29:07.050 - 00:29:22.939

uh until the next day I think, see, this would have been Thursday. So then Friday, there was a meeting with it in, included student leaders as well. Did you happen to attend that one? Well, my, my, the first, my question is whether you, you talk to

00:29:22.949 - 00:29:43.869

anyone about this uh um coming problem. Do you have any conversations or activities about it? Were there any meetings or conferences that you're calling? No, apparently a lot of people got phone calls all night long and that sort of thing, but I didn't. How about, I

00:29:43.880 - 00:30:08.390

think I talked to one or two people about it who picked it up by then. But, uh, what was their reaction generally? Well, they were all curious as to what reaction everybody would have to, the choice. They were curious about the, the choice, the reaction to

00:30:08.400 - 00:30:30.489

the choice. Well, the method of choice and the choice. Well, how about the larger meeting the next day with the student uh uh leaders, s a college presidents uh so forth. Uh Is there anything at that meeting that stands out in your mind being especially impressive

00:30:30.500 - 00:31:05.660

or effective or significant? No, it sort of repeat of the meeting the day before. I don't remember too much about it. That was just shortly before the faculty meeting if I recall no new summer. So no, no indication of uh well, uh between this meeting and

00:31:05.670 - 00:31:37.489

the faculty meeting. Um Were you aware that there was a petition going around? I've never heard of that. What about Fyrom Meting itself? Uh Is there anything about that that stands out in your mind? No, it was kind of unpleasant affair. But uh but uh I

00:31:37.500 - 00:32:04.430

was a little disappointed, some of the faculty started booing and hissing this sort of thing which is borders on Chalie. OK. You know, it was a curious thing to me that uh petition or whatever you call, it actually had two main points to make one the

00:32:04.439 - 00:32:31.099

factory abhorred the uh or disapproved of the procedures used two, then requested the board to reconsider. And after a lot of argument, they decided to put in a vote as to whether to split that into the two parts and the book one to split it in

00:32:31.109 - 00:32:47.500

the two parts, which to me, man, the faculty would vote to say they disapprove, disapproved of the procedure, but they wouldn't. Then we go ahead and accept, I thought they would approve the first part and disapprove the second part if they went to the trouble to

00:32:48.089 - 00:33:07.640

vote to split the two parts. But as it turned out, they didn't they, what intervened between these two? Go? Nothing. I don't know. I never have figured that out. I don't know why, why everybody gotten such a flap to split the two, two parts that they

00:33:07.650 - 00:33:25.910

were going to prove both of them anyway. It was kind of curious to me. I thought at the time that meant they would go on record as being against the procedure and not the other. But as it turned out to be on a record against both

00:33:25.920 - 00:33:46.839

parts, were the votes taken fairly close together or were there some speeches or talks in between? There might have been some talking, I don't think there was much, it's all kind of hazy. Was there any particular speaker who stands out in your mind uh as being

00:33:46.849 - 00:34:16.459

especially impressive, you having any influence on uh the, you know, tone of the meeting. No one was applauded or no. Early in the meeting. Dean Richter got up and moved that we adjourn or something and that was hollered down. He fed up. But, and there was

00:34:16.469 - 00:34:43.270

a lot said, no, I'm not sure any of the arguments were very persuasive. I think everybody had their mind made up. I'm not sure. How do you count with this vote on the second part? Uh, I don't know. Did you notice any votes switching from the

00:34:43.280 - 00:35:00.860

first to the second or were you in a position where you could see, I didn't really pay that much attention. I don't remember what the numbers were. Can't remember what it was on the, on the split with the um on part two. It was either 91

00:35:00.870 - 00:35:27.179

to 57 or it was 97 to 51. I may have the numbers transposed but uh it was not quite 2 to 1, but I don't remember what it was on the uh split. What were your uh summary thoughts on the meeting? What uh now I done

00:35:27.189 - 00:35:56.669

this. What did that mean to you? What, what did you anticipate would happen next? Is it any special concerns or? No? I thought that was probably about it, in fact, had expressed their opinion and uh trustee or saying you're gonna hold their ground. I didn't know

00:35:56.679 - 00:36:18.360

much else would happen. One thing I meant to ask you uh during the meeting, did you notice any, um, did you notice the effect of the, of the developments in the meeting, uh on say Mr Allen, Mr Teague, they were sitting up front, weren't they? Yeah,

00:36:18.370 - 00:36:50.909

I didn't, uh, I didn't notice you. Well, what about after the meeting? Anything uh happened? Then any meetings, conferences, uh conversations, not with me. I gather, plenty went on however, and then gathered later in the evening that the flap was developed because of a number of

00:36:50.919 - 00:37:10.199

us on the athletic committee were having a party for all the coaches because they had such a lousy year. We were having a party. We love you kind of thing. We were all over Jim Costa's house. I got a phone call because the students want to

00:37:10.209 - 00:37:40.399

use the gym for a meeting. They had to get the, uh, mhm. Athletic departments. Ok. To use the gym and that, now I came to know that there was something, no coming up, they indicate this was for a teach in or whatever. They just, uh, an

00:37:40.409 - 00:38:02.409

old school meeting of some sort. It wasn't advertised as a, you know, violent dissent or anything. And they wanted to have a meeting somewhere and that was about the only place you can get to get that many people to get, particularly with the weather being bad

00:38:02.419 - 00:38:25.919

at the time. It was raining very bad. What, uh, what were some of the conversations going, uh, going around that Friday evening over at the party? Uh, uh, were there any speculations about what this might mean? No, it was not a subject of conversation much referring

00:38:25.929 - 00:38:50.439

to the meeting. And by then I guess somebody heard that Billy Masterson was coming the next day about it, but most of it was consulting the coaches on a very bad football season. Well, how about the next morning? Did, uh, did you happen to go to

00:38:50.449 - 00:39:24.560

the, um, meeting at the gym or uh what, what did you see happening there? Nothing. It was very well conducted meeting. I didn't stay for all of it. Different individuals got up and spoke some one way, some in another, most of them against the appointment. Then

00:39:24.570 - 00:39:43.360

I went on down the corn house because on the understood Masterson was going to be there and I decided I would see people march by because by that time I heard it was going to be a march and they marked by. How'd you feel about that

00:39:43.370 - 00:40:02.830

in March? Well, I don't know this first one you've seen here rise in that many people or have there been other, well, first one involved that many people, but it was a well conducted fair. It was very well organized and so it didn't cause you any

00:40:02.840 - 00:40:24.189

alarm. No, no. Did, uh did you get any impressions about um how anyone else was a, was reacting to this? Did you notice the reactions of uh, say the trustees or Doctor Masterson? Did they actually see the March. I don't know whether they did or not.

00:40:26.330 - 00:41:01.889

Mm. I talked to a number of people that wandered by at that time, a faculty and so on. Well, at that time, the issue was shifting from procedure to personality, which part partly upset me because people were taking sides and never met the man. OK, you're

00:41:01.899 - 00:41:51.189

going sincerely on somebody else's evaluation. Were there any particular points that came up as, as uh, point of objection? Two, Doctor Masterson, was it, uh, he was authoritarian, I think was maybe main point. There was no scholar was another point that was quoted. Did

00:41:51.199 - 00:42:13.379

you, um, observe the, uh, the press conference then, uh, in courthouse? Were you able to stay around for the, uh, milling around after the March got down? So you didn't, uh observe Masterson's conversation with the students? Uh, either. Well, were there any other activities that you

00:42:13.389 - 00:42:35.949

were engaged in on Saturday? Uh, did you ever get a chance to talk to Doctor Masterson or on occasion too? I saw him when he walked from the Island Center over the corn house. Where said hi, something that was not. What did you say then? Oh,

00:42:37.600 - 00:43:05.020

give me say, congratulations. Yeah, I guess I, well, let's see. Um, did, uh, anything further happen that Saturday? Uh, apparently, but I wouldn't. Well, were you aware that Doctor Ma was talking with the, uh, student leaders, uh, uh, somewhere around the Ellen Center, uh, only in

00:43:05.030 - 00:43:27.850

a roundabout way went that night to Dance Criterion Club because the National Association Athletic Directors Executive Committee was meeting here and they invited me to have dinner with him and went over there and there was somebody from the development office dashed out to have dinner and

00:43:27.860 - 00:43:59.229

they said Doctor Masterson was talking to the students or something like that. And that was the only, what did you think about this, uh, decision to talk to students? Sounds like a good idea. Do you think you ought to talk to faculty department? He is or

00:43:59.659 - 00:44:26.229

the committee or anybody? No, things got in a pretty raunchy state by then. I don't know how objective people could have been. You don't think there's much possibility that he could have changed any, any point, any attitudes of key people and maybe sort of defused this

00:44:26.239 - 00:44:49.370

whole situation. I don't know. Was there ever any discussion that, um, maybe you should meet with the faculty advisory committee? I gather from other reports that that was discussed. I never heard anything about it. You're not contacted to get rid of, you're not alerted for such

00:44:49.409 - 00:45:08.729

a thing. If, uh, if he had requested to see the committee, uh, would you have objected to the committee's uh meeting with him? Do you think anybody else on the committee would have objected to a meeting with them? I don't believe so. And I sure don't

00:45:08.739 - 00:45:34.179

know you're not aware of any uh feeling that committee should not be used as a, uh, um, sort of a rubber stamp. No, I'm sure that feeling was there because it was a Thursday preceding when I, yeah, made a hypothesis. It would be nice if we

00:45:34.189 - 00:45:58.300

endorsed it, which looking back, it would have been a rubber stamp and I'm not sure it would have changed anything other than put the committee on the spot too. So that might have been a mistake because I'm sure the word would have gotten out that, you

00:45:58.310 - 00:46:24.820

know, the decision had already been made in the committee that could expose factor. So it, you know, it didn't do anything. So it probably was a lousy idea on my part. I don't know. I guess that actually that happened chronologically, uh, the students put out a

00:46:24.830 - 00:46:39.750

press release saying that they, after meeting with doctor Masterson, they found him unacceptable. Did, uh, you happen to hear about that statement any time close to the time it came out or? Uh, no, I guess I read about it in the newspaper or something? I don't

00:46:39.810 - 00:46:56.629

know where it was or on the radio. How about Sunday afternoon? Did you have any plan meetings or discussions? I distinctly remember being at home and not hearing a word all day long. In fact, I called one or two people to hear if anything was going

00:46:56.639 - 00:47:25.909

on and they had heard nothing. Did you find out later that a meeting, uh, informal meeting was, uh, was held uh, uh, with the D go, I heard later a meeting was with advertise as meeting the department chair. This I heard about it later which irritated

00:47:25.919 - 00:47:48.149

me. No end because being a department chairman, I was never informed of such a meeting and my phone didn't ring all day. So I know I wouldn't know what to call me. How do you care for that? I don't know. I just guess some chairman who

00:47:48.159 - 00:48:13.250

felt strongly about doing something organized, but it got mislabeled as a meeting of department chairman, this meeting of some department chairman because the first I knew about it, actually, later on this Sunday, I got a call from some students saying everybody's meeting in the various colleges

00:48:13.260 - 00:48:37.669

to discuss the problem. And uh, so that's where I go. So I went to Hanson College heard about a third of the meeting. That's when it was announced, there had been a meeting with the department chairman and they had requested Dean Gordon to take a poll

00:48:37.679 - 00:48:53.449

and it would be taken. And since I had a prospective factory member coming the next day, it was obvious to me that this is the wrong day for him to come. So I left the meeting and call him up and told him that staying where he

00:48:53.459 - 00:49:15.790

was. So I didn't finish out that, but it must not have been too 10 o'clock Sunday night that I heard that there had been a so called chairman meeting. Did uh, did you ever find out later, uh, who some of the people were, who attended, uh,

00:49:16.760 - 00:49:37.489

form any impressions about, uh, select nature of the group? Uh, I never ever heard of who they were. Did you get the idea that, uh, I just know one or two chairmen that weren't there and that so well, were the other members of the executive committee

00:49:37.500 - 00:50:10.489

there? Uh, that, uh, I gather not, but I'm not positive. I know at least one that wouldn't, I don't know. I know Sims wasn't name in your understanding of the uh the working nature of this executive committee. Would you have expected that uh on something like

00:50:10.500 - 00:50:33.989

this? They would have acted in concert or would you expect it that they uh that uh the, the executive chairman would uh did this on its own or? Well, I just, I didn't, I couldn't really cognizant of how that executive committee worked. I know they had

00:50:34.000 - 00:51:02.879

frequently weekly meetings side things but whether they, they met on every item or not, I couldn't uh at the meeting at hand from college. Um Sunday night. Um do any of the speakers stand out in your mind is uh being especially uh impressive. No, the same

00:51:02.969 - 00:51:24.949

I heard part of it, John Adams made comments and announced this poll that was supposedly going to be taken the next day. Ed Norbeck spoke on the other side on this Holstein cow theory that you probably heard of and he told me about that and I

00:51:24.959 - 00:51:48.530

heard on the tape too, how did that go over with the students? It's sort of hard to tell from a recording. Well, I thought it, well, that meeting was recorded. I didn't think so. Yeah, it was, I think all the college meetings were, well, somewhere in

00:51:48.540 - 00:52:11.469

that recording then is a question of mine, Adams as to what meeting the chairman are you talking about? And he said, well, we weren't able to get a hold of everybody, but he did give the names of the people who attended. No, I, he may, I

00:52:11.479 - 00:52:32.729

don't think so. He may have. Well, what did you think about the nature of the referendum? Did that, uh did you approve or disprove that idea or? I didn't like the idea. I don't know quite why I didn't, I was still hoping everything would shut up

00:52:32.739 - 00:52:55.060

and I was still an opinion at that time, the board would stick by their guns, but they have and the Masterson would come. By that time, there were a few of us that were meeting to decide how are we going to pick up the pieces when

00:52:55.070 - 00:53:19.360

the whole place fall apart? Which was then becoming uppermost in my mind, at least in the mind of several others. This part was over. And when Masterson actually shows up in June, how are we gonna react in order to keep the place from coming on? Gluten,

00:53:22.479 - 00:53:46.750

who, who was in this group that you were meeting with. No, we just ad hoc people and Alex Deser and myself, but more help we're concerned now that the future of the university. Have you heard any news at that time? That led you to believe that

00:53:46.760 - 00:54:12.530

the, uh, any part of the student body might get, uh, violent, like, uh, taking over a building or occupying an altar or did you, um, did you have any concern about what the sds was doing at this time or? No? I think Warren Starn had the

00:54:12.540 - 00:54:36.189

students in pretty good control. He was quite effective, I think, not positive all of his motives, but he didn't let this was a, you know, a great opportunity for a radical element to move in and take advantage of an issue and he apparently was able to

00:54:38.639 - 00:54:57.280

control that. So it didn't happen. I'm respecting. I don't know, but it just seems like you've been a very right time or something on the basis of what, uh, you knew or heard about Warren scar. And, uh, did you have any concern that, that maybe he

00:54:57.290 - 00:55:17.969

himself might, uh, um, like a more militant course, if the things are not resolved in a way that he would like, does that mean that you thought he'd probably end up accepting the decision? I guess? I never really pondered on that point, but he apparently did

00:55:17.979 - 00:55:40.350

in my mind have the reputation of somebody that would and become militant but I certainly don't know, you mentioned before that you didn't particularly, uh, care for this vote procedure. Uh, was it the method or was it the vote? Well, I didn't know what it was

00:55:40.360 - 00:56:09.179

going to accomplish. Did you think that it was a valid way of sampling? Uh, the true opinion? Yeah, I suppose it was, I think by that time people were, we're voting by motion. OK. Ok. Do you think they're turning in votes to department chairman, uh, uh,

00:56:10.300 - 00:56:28.889

would have intimidated any faculty members or, uh, is this the usual, the usual way of doing things? Well, it couldn't be usual because we don't do that kind of vote very often. In one case, it was completely blank and unassigned ballot. So they wouldn't, uh, how

00:56:28.899 - 00:56:46.110

many would be in your department, for instance. Uh, there were 15 people. Well, so there could be in that number. There's enough of a mix, I guess. Uh, you can't single out one negative vote or two or another. How did your department vote on that? I

00:56:46.179 - 00:57:11.169

don't remember, but it wasn't lopsided one way or the other, you know, this, uh, meeting that you had with, uh, Alex Dessler. And, uh, but Rorschach did, um, did any, uh, co evolve for this? No, we were just sitting around talking. It wasn't really a formal

00:57:17.360 - 00:57:35.679

formal meeting at all. In fact, there was some meeting in the department chairman and we met a half an hour before talking about a positive approach to take. I remember Alex and I said, uh, you know, when Masterson really shows up in June, then what? And

00:57:35.689 - 00:58:09.459

Bud said, I'm not so sure he really will. And so we bet a quarter. And about three minutes later the phone rang and National Masterson, he resign. But you off the cor, yeah, why didn't you think he would resign? I don't know. I just 31. What,

00:58:09.469 - 00:58:39.030

um, what alternatives did you see that he had at this point? Uh Mhm. Well, either come or resign. I was afraid we would develop an alienation of the board. There was a real sincere group of men give a lot of their substance and time to this

00:58:39.040 - 00:59:02.189

university and the worst thing that could happen and be for the board to say, well, to hell with it, I'll make the monthly meetings. But that's it. You know, because the university does depend on their good at. Have you seen any evidence that this has happened?

00:59:03.899 - 00:59:33.250

No, they were, we're not pleased with the results obviously and kind of withdrew a little bit, I believe. But there they still sincerely wanting the university to move ahead and I back out working on raising funds and so on and still devoting a lot of time

00:59:33.260 - 01:00:03.189

in school, a lot of thought. Have you ever noticed? Um, this is like something we were talking about before. Have you ever noticed among the faculty, a tendency to, uh sort of look down on a businessman stereotype, uh or look down on the trustees as sort

01:00:03.199 - 01:00:33.260

of a businessman stereotype. No, maybe, I don't know, it just depends on the, from the faculty. I think engineers have a better appreciation for what trustees do and perhaps others, uh is that because uh some of these men aren't engineers and engineers are more professionally oriented

01:00:33.270 - 01:01:09.340

than the straight human. You, you mentioned that the trustees are a group of very sincere dedicated men. Uh How do you think they should came to fall into this mistake? I have no idea. I think they didn't realize there would be the reaction. It was ok.

01:01:10.389 - 01:01:37.469

I'm convinced it wasn't a devious plot or that we won't bring up Masterson's name because we know they won't approve it virtually. Sure. That's, that's not the case. Has there been any change uh or restructuring of the board since this happened? Uh any change in memberships

01:01:37.479 - 01:01:56.760

or uh of the board? I guess there had been one or two additions just because of the routine with the governors, you know, cycle on and off and a couple of them cycled off. But other than that, there had been, you can't do anything special from

01:01:56.770 - 01:02:17.419

uh the new selections that were made or anything of that sort, looking back on it. Uh Can you see any course of action that uh Doctor Masterson may have pursued, which uh would have made his coming palatable enough to, enough people that, uh, he could have

01:02:17.429 - 01:02:54.530

accepted it in good ways. I guess not. I don't know. I don't know what could have been done yet. Well, that, uh, carpet sweeper the next week will sound great to the transcriber, won't it? It's going over a little bit and I'll cut it down here.

01:02:57.379 - 01:03:31.080

Well, uh, what, uh, what summary thoughts do you have on this whole episode? Doctor Chapman. Uh, what if that has had on us? I don't know. It's got everybody edgy about the future, but they were a little edgy anyway, when pitcher quit. Of course, just the

01:03:31.090 - 01:04:11.429

un unsettled nature of everything in the university communities. This, they didn't help any. Everybody is nervous. Have you noticed any, uh, any, uh problems, uh, as far as alumni contributions are concerned, uh, has rise, suffered financially in this way? Uh I have no way of

01:04:11.479 - 01:04:46.060

knowing. I was, uh, wondering, are, uh, have you, uh, been well acquainted with the Phil Masterson so that you're aware of his, uh, his experience with chatty in the last three years or so, uh, with his career there at all? A bit. Not real close. One

01:04:46.070 - 01:05:03.639

of the things I was wondering about, uh, some of the, um, assumptions about his performance as a president, but how he would perform as a president were based on uh his uh performance as a Dean of Humanities or his master of, uh, he college or as

01:05:03.649 - 01:05:27.000

a teacher of the professor for American history. 110. Uh, are you aware of anything in his, uh, career in the last three years, uh, which also coincides with that, a great increase in shooting under risk throughout the country. Are you, um, aware that he, um, has

01:05:27.010 - 01:05:56.469

changed any of his outlooks and as far as, uh, how the university should be administered or the administration should relate to student, any changes in his educational philosophy as a result of his different functional respect. You no other than he reportedly doing a good job at

01:05:56.479 - 01:06:20.280

Chattanooga. At least the people there seem to think so because he invited him back. You know, I hired a former student of mine to set up a new engineering school there who thinks a lot of it when you hear that, uh, he did a good job

01:06:20.409 - 01:06:38.330

of Chattanooga in what context do you hear of this? Is this in fundraising ability or, uh, new faculties recruited or do you hear any particular? No, I don't know. I just hear people say it and they, they may not know what you're talking about. I do

01:06:38.340 - 01:07:04.270

know this one fellow student of mine that I rather close to heading up the new, they just developing an engineering school. There was hired by Masterson to do that and he is quite impressed mattress you from that point. Do you think this incident, uh, Eric Masterson's

01:07:04.280 - 01:07:47.919

career? Yeah, I imagine it probably did. No, that can be passed off as just disputed. Uh, no. Mm. No, because I think students were used as tools, they were organized. Most of them didn't know. I'm not saying they weren't sincere but I'm not sure they were

01:07:47.929 - 01:08:27.258

completely uniformed. They're only exposed to maybe one side of the, the issue lashes when people didn't get up. And does this mean that when a majority opinion gets ruling like this, it has a really trans effect. People don't want to expose, do you think they had

01:08:27.269 - 01:09:05.950

a reason to let account for him? Personal showers? Huh? I don't know. I guess they thought, like I did it all, go away but I check, I see it cleared most of the questions on my list. Uh, you've been very interest with your time. Is there

01:09:05.959 - 01:09:32.458

anything more you'd like to? Uh, and, uh, we have some of my thoughts on this polar bear. No, give you advice for us and, uh, the way we should continue this project, uh, the people we should interview that might not have gotten too much and I

01:09:32.469 - 01:10:00.438

don't know who maybe tempted to talk to doctor Masterson. Well, uh, that's why I wrote them earlier and, uh, he, uh, step back a car that was, uh, rather ambiguous. Um, he, uh, showed interest in the project but he wouldn't be busy this summer and he

01:10:00.449 - 01:10:24.560

wasn't, uh, sure that his memory, uh, of the incidents, uh, were such that he could make a contribute. And, um, and if Rebecca has up to the appointment. Um He, he decided to commit himself. Um There are many uh many, many questions I like very much

01:10:24.569 - 01:10:47.379

to talk over with them, even if he uh said to be no more and they just talk about his having a big experience. It would be more valueable. It's been on my mind calling personally and this is the end of the interview with Doctor Chapman. After

01:10:47.390 - 01:10:51.140

the visitor uh left, we did not resume the recorded portion of the interview.