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SL: Okay. Good afternoon, Mr. SL: Madha. My name is Samuel Lee, and I am going to be interviewing you for the SL: Houston Asian American Archive. SL: Today is October 17th, 2023.

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SL: And to begin this interview, could you briefly introduce yourself with your full SL: name and when and where you were born? AM: Yeah, my name is Abraham Madha. AM: Back when I was born, Southeast Asia, especially South—you know, India, Pakistan

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AM: and Burma were all considered kind of one and the same. AM: So my birth certificate says Pakistan but my family AM: moved me there very quickly. AM: So I consider myself born in Burma from

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AM: age zero to age nine. AM: And then when their—nationalization happened there, we moved to what is now AM: Bangladesh and then we moved to Pakistan two years each. AM: And then I moved to France for a little bit.

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AM: Then I came to the US at age 14. SL: Well, that is a lot. SL: I guess we can start with a little bit about your family. SL: Do you mind kind of sharing what your family life was like when you were growing up?

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SL: Before the age of 14, I guess. AM: Yeah, the Burma—we—and I lived in Rangoon, Burma for the first nine years of AM: my life. We lived in the shadows of Shwedagon Pagoda, which I'm pretty proud AM: of, which is a pagoda that's very important to the

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AM: Burmese Buddhists. AM: And I lived in a community that had a mosque right down the AM: street—a–a synagogue. AM: I went to Catholic schools, and there was a Buddhist temple across the street, and there

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AM: was a lot of Chinese and Indians. AM: So it was a very eclectic experience, not just at school, but living in AM: that community. AM: So—and we were fairly well off so it was a different

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AM: life than what I have now, which I guess you'll get into later. AM: Like I said, I went to Catholic schools and then the nationalization came where they came AM: in and took everything we had, and we lived under that for about a AM: year. You know, you go from going to school, you know,

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AM: having chauffeur-driven cars to where you have to walk or ride the bus, which was a big AM: change for a seven year-old. AM: So we were there for a couple of years, and then we moved to Bangladesh, which was even AM: worse because Burmese society was a very open

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AM: society before the nationalization so my mom and AM: my sisters were able to come and go and do what they needed. AM: When we got to Bangladesh, we had to live with a rented a house AM: in a–in a family compound, which is very strange and then my mom and my

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AM: sisters couldn't go out. AM: So as a nine year-old, I wound up doing all the chores, shopping, banking, because my AM: father and my older brother went to a different city to try to make a living. AM: So we were there t—for two years until the Bangladesh, now

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AM: known as Bangladesh, were trying to break away from Pakistan. AM: They were named East Pakistan at that time. AM: And again, my brother was almost killed because we didn't fit in AM: to the Bangladeshi culture or—not culture, but the racial

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AM: social background that they wanted. AM: So we left there to went to Pakistan for two years, and that–that was kind of a AM: little stabilizing for two years. AM: But then they had the war with India going on so my older brother and two

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AM: sisters moved to United States, whereas I wound up going to France AM: because I wanted to live in Germany with my uncle, but didn't happen so I wound up coming AM: here. AM: Just to kind of let you know I–I had already—at that point, I had already

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AM: graduated from high school, and I had about a year of college so coming here to the AM: States at age 14 and going to college with no help, AM: basically, was a tough—so I understand about a lot of the students, what they go AM: through, when they come in as a foreign students.

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AM: I don't know if that's all what you wanted. SL: Yeah, that was a lot. AM: And the same thing goes for you. AM: If I'm kind of going sideways from what you want to know, just stop me and ask.

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SL: No, yeah. Of course. Thank you for sharing that. SL: That–that is a lot. SL: You said you were in college by the time you were 14 then? AM: Yeah, I was pretty sick when I was a kid, so I learned to read, and I used to

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AM: kind of raid the American consulate and the British consulate, whatever country we were AM: in, grab books and read. AM: So, you know, part of reading allowed me to bypass or jump AM: grades. So like their system is three kindergartens:

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AM: KG one, KG two, three, and 10 grades. AM: This was a Franciscan, you know, th-there's an order AM: out of Canada that the school systems were in all those countries. AM: So I wound up staying in the same school system.

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AM: There, you c—you had to test out of the current grade, even AM: from kindergarten. AM: Then you test into the next grade. AM: If you can do that, you go to the next grade.

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AM: But unfortunately–unfortunately, I winded up testing AM: better than most people, so they would just skip me. AM: So like, I never attended K2, K3. AM: I went from K1 to first grade for a couple of months and then I went to the second

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AM: grade. Then I jumped to fourth and I was in fifth for a whole year, and then I went AM: to seventh, then nine and tenth. AM: And also in their system you test out from the school and then AM: you would have to test out in the country's testing system.

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AM: So it-it's, you know, people think when I say I graduated early, they think it's easy. AM: It's harder than like, say, my younger sister who went to American schools. AM: You know, I-I get to compare that, plus my children. AM: And I think it's, you know, you—if you went to Chinese school or if you're familiar with

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AM: it, they're much tougher than anything we have in America. SL: Wow. AM: So in Pakistan–Pakistan I o-one year of college when I came AM: here at age 14.

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SL: So the school system you just described this was in Burma or Bangladesh? AM: Yeah, yeah, it was in Burma and Bangladesh and Pakistan and AM: partially in–in France. AM: But I didn't go to school in France, but it's run by a group of monks

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AM: called brothers from Canada. AM: They run schools like that all over Southeast Asia and Asia. SL: Oh, okay. I see and just for book-keeping purposes, you were SL: in—so you were born in Pakistan, but immediately

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SL: moved to Burma and spent nine years there, correct? SL: [AM: Correct. Correct.] And then two years in Bangladesh. SL: [AM: Right.] And then two years in France? AM: In Pakistan.

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SL: Oh, in Pakistan. And then how long in France? AM: About nine months. SL: Okay. And could you share a little bit about how your family was kind of SL: spread out? Because I know you mentioned you had an uncle in Germany.

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SL: Did you have any other family members outside of your immediate family that lived SL: in any of these countries? AM: Well, yeah. AM: D-During nationalization, General Ne Win had tried to nationalize the

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AM: country and kick out everybody that he considered, not AM: Burmese nationals, even though my family had been there forever, AM: two—almost 200 years. AM: So when that happened, a lot of my father's side of the family moved

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AM: to either Los Angeles, Culver City. AM: Some moved to Europe, some moved and some stayed. AM: If you—just kind of an anecdotal story—one of my nieces, as I AM: call her, she's my cousin's daughter, when she got married in the early

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AM: 80s—mid-80s, we were, you know, my cousin had rented out a whole AM: hotel floor in Long Beach. AM: And sitting on the bride side, we had black people, people that looked like you, AM: people like my mother, who had red hair and green eyes, and

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AM: Chinese-looking people, you know, Asian-looking people AM: and–and–and I was married at the time to an Anglo. AM: And the–the waiter asks us, "Man, the bride side of the family, you guys have a lot of AM: friends from all over the world." I said, "No, they're not friends, they're all family.

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AM: They're first and second cousins." So that was kind of interesting to him. AM: Where she had married a guy from Pakistan—was marrying a guy from Pakistan, and his group AM: looked all homogenized. AM: You know, they all look Paki.

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AM: So that's kind of my family history to kind of give you a background. AM: My father's side of the family was called china-madha(?) and in the language that we AM: spoke, Gujurati, which means Chinese-Madha. AM: And my son just about ten years ago or so, he—12—13

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AM: years ago or so, when he married a Chinese woman, her last name was Jenny Ma, AM: and my last name is Madha, M-A-D-H-A, and he had never believed me when I said we AM: were part Chinese, we were part African, depending on whose side of the AM: family it was. And he was—he got one of those DNA tests done and he

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AM: came back and goes, "oh my God, you know, I married my cousin." I said, "Don't worry AM: about it. She's about 700 years difference between when the family went to China and AM: became Ma." So he was worried that he might have married a blood relative s AM: o that was kind of funny.

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SL: Wow. So very, very diverse family, huh? AM: Yeah. And–and–and just one other anecdote, and then I'll let you get back to your AM: question is my census when I took the AM: 2010 Census in America.

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AM: You know, I'd just been taken off active duty, and I was in the reserves AM: at the time on an inactive status and feeling kind of frisky. AM: I said, place of birth as Earth and race as human. AM: So the–the people in the Census Bureau didn't think it was funny so they tried to

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AM: get me in jail for lying. AM: [SL: [laughs]] And I had to explain to the judges, like, you know, coming from the AM: background that I do, and having lived in so many countries, plus when I joined the AM: military, they send me right back out to Southeast Asia.

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AM: And during Vietnam, I caught the tail end of the Vietnam War. AM: And so she started laughing and told the people that there's really nothing AM: wrong with my answers. AM: So that's why now a lot of us put human in place of birth as Earth,

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AM: which is true. I mean, you know, I wasn't lying. AM: It's the truth. SL: Yeah. That's funny. AM: That kind of tells you. Yeah.

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AM: That's when Han-shi(?) asked me to do this interview, I had to think about it, and I AM: said, "Eh, you know, my granddaughters are half-Chinese and they–they need to know, AM: you know, where their background is if my son doesn't tell them." I should be able AM: to give them some background.

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SL: Are you—so how would you identify yourself ethnically SL: then? AM: I don't. You know, that's the funny part about it is that's why I had a little bit of AM: thinking to do when it says, you know, it's for Asian Americans.

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AM: It's like, well, you know, I did grow up in Asia and I did—I was born there. AM: Ethnically, I still classify myself as human because I have so many AM: cultural backgrounds, you know, plus racial and blood types and all AM: that evolved with me to where—and–and that's what I claim, and

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AM: that's what I push. The idea that we're all one human race and we can claim to be from AM: somewhere geographically, but that does not make who we are. AM: [SL: Right.] The young lady you just saw, she's from Central America, adopted AM: her as a single parent a few years back.

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AM: And so I have to teach her that, you know, she's–she's very violently like AM: me now to where she won't identify as anything except a human and place of birth AM: as Earth, so. AM: And I wish more and more people thought that way; that would relieve some of this

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AM: aggravation that we have on this planet. SL: Mhm. I see. SL: I really like— AM: If you look at me, I mean right now I don't have hair, much hair left.

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AM: And in the video I look like I'm bald but I'm not. AM: I have—yeah, I used to have red hair with green eyes and I spoke AM: Chinese, so that was kind of funny when I first came here. SL: Yeah. So maybe moving away from the ethnicity, then how

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SL: would you kind of define yourself culturally? SL: I'm sure, like you experienced a lot of different sociocultural influences SL: growing up then? AM: Yeah. Yeah it's—you know, I tell people and I–and

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AM: I have a blog that I'm—that got taken away for a little bit, but I'm going to put it AM: back up, is culturally, you know, I live close to AM: Chinatown in Houston. AM: I live in a very diverse, eclectic neighborhood so especially

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AM: in Houston, there's so many cultures and ethnicities and stuff, and AM: people are, you know, it's a human nature to try to claim a tribal AM: af-affiliation. I don't. AM: And–and when I got single, I started dating.

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AM: That was one of the hardest thing for my potential dates to get their head wrapped AM: around because they wanted to pigeonhole me into one. AM: I said look, my son did a DNA test and he didn't believe me that I was AM: North African. I'm fif–I'm 50% North African by blood, but

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AM: my family was in Asia for a long time. AM: And you know, he—obviously on his side, he is Anglo AM: and Germanic, his mother is. AM: And he had to come to terms that he has Chinese blood in him, he has

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AM: Asian blood in him, Southeast Asian also. AM: Plus he has North African blood. AM: So one of the things I've grown up telling them is to not think of AM: themselves geographically limited or ethnically ler—related, just be who they

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AM: are. And if you have studied Zen or Daoism, that's AM: what it's all about. AM: It's who you are and your actions. AM: And yesterday I was very lucky for Jesse, my daughter here, that you just saw,

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AM: to meet the Buddhist monks from Tibet. AM: But they follow the Tibetan line AM: of Buddhism but they–they live in India and they're traveling around the world. AM: And she was able to hear, you know, about self.

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AM: How do you identify? AM: And it all made sense to her from what I've been telling her. AM: It's the self is who you are, but it's not your body, it's–it's your mind and AM: your actions. And that's what I preach and, you know, mentor a lot of young

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AM: kids—yo-your age group and a little bit younger—a-about AM: seeing things that way and not get tied to tribalism. AM: I don't know if that makes sense. SL: No, that makes perfect sense.

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SL: And I think that's a really important viewpoint that a lot more people should be SL: conscious of in today's time. AM: Yeah. Especially around Houston. SL: Right. It's such a diverse city.

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SL: I guess that— AM: One–one question you haven't asked that I'll interject real quick and I'll let you get on AM: in a sec is–is religious. AM: You know, one of the things—religion is part of a cultural thing and people are amazed

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AM: that I can attend a synagogue, I can attend a mosque. AM: I take Jesse to the Chinese Baptist Church in Houston, and they all accept us. AM: It's kind of funny they're the only ones that accept us more than anybody else. AM: The Chinese Baptists and I have a bunch of friends that I eat lunches with called Romeo,

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AM: which is Retired Old Man Eating Out, and there are 45 or 50 Chinese AM: people and me. AM: And people will ask them, you know, "why this guy?" And said, "Well, he's Chinese. AM: You don't know that?" You know, they look at me, it's like "you don't look Chinese." But

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AM: I'm—they accept me. So I'm—I feel pretty blessed that AM: the group accepts me and welcomes me, so. SL: Yeah. That's amazing. SL: And that's really sweet.

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SL: I think that actually kind of leads me to a question I had SL: maybe more so, like, when you were growing up, then how did you kind of navigate these SL: different cultures and belief systems like religion, you just kind of mentioned? SL: Did you grow up believing a certain way that your parents taught you?

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AM: Well, my parents were pretty easy going as far as religion goes, and like I said, we AM: were surrounded by places of worship of every kind. AM: And I was also blessed that the person—because I was sick until my ninth AM: birthday. When we left Burma, I was brought up by a Buddhist monk

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AM: because he was—in Burma, you're allowed to be a young person, go AM: to the monastery for two years, and then you decide whether you're going to continue to be AM: a monk or go back to AM: the–the life, you know, the everyday life of–of—what's

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AM: the word I'm looking for here? AM: Secular life, right? AM: And he happened to be the guy that drove– drove me and my mom around. AM: He was our chauffeur, but I got to spend a lot of time with him, even at his home.

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AM: And so I learned the concepts of Buddhism, which is really been—and–and AM: Daoism, which has really been copied in the Abrahamic religion. AM: Being named Abraham, it was kind of interesting. AM: And one of the things I tell people that, you know, my grandmother was Jewish, she was

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AM: married to a Muslim guy, my mom's side, and they got along fine. AM: But they were kicked out of Middle East, North Africa, and they settled in Burma, AM: you know, long before I was born. AM: And on my father's side, there were just so many cultures, ethnicity or bloodlines that

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AM: were in there. I was able to go by desserts. AM: I call it my dessert philosophy. AM: Whoever had the best desserts for the holidays is who I was that particular week. AM: You know, it's like during Diwali I was Hindu because I could go have all the

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AM: desserts whatever you—Muslim eats or Ramadan, I was Muslim because I could go eat AM: all the food that I wanted. AM: So that was kind of funny to–to—food was the common denominator for AM: me is whoever invited me to go.

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AM: And because I was kind of sickly and wasn't age appropriate in school, AM: I had to find friends elsewhere. AM: Does that make sense? SL: Yeah, yeah.

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SL: So where–where did you find most of your friends or who did you spend most of your SL: time with growing up? AM: The first nine years, because I was pretty sickly, I didn't have many friends, plus the AM: last two years we were in Burma, after nationalization, I was put into night

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AM: school. So, you know, even my neighborhood friends were AM: unavailable to me because they went to either private schools or public schools AM: during daytime and I went to the Catholic school at nighttime, because that's the only AM: way we could keep in the system was to take the night classes.

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AM: So I really, you know, was if you watch Big Bang Theory, I was AM: kind of like the kid, Sheldon as a kid, to where I had to find friends AM: elsewhere in books and, you know, adults. AM: So when I joined the service, eventually, at age 17, I was the

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AM: youngest one, and everybody in my group was anywhere from 20 to, you know, AM: 50 when we're in there. AM: So that's—so I tend now that I'm 67, AM: it's kind of funny to where I find friends that

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AM: are older and younger. AM: I mean, like I said, I mentor a lot of young men and women that are much younger and then AM: I'm friends with people older, but I find I don't belong AM: ethnically or culturally or anything elsewhere.

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AM: I think the Romeo group, which is the Chinese Baptist Church people, Retired Old Man AM: Eating Out, and Hanchi(?), the guy that introduced me to–to your AM: group but it-it's not a friend thing. AM: It's more of an acquaintance thing.

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AM: The closest friend I would probably have would be a lot of my military people. AM: So I'm not answering your question, but I did answer it that I really didn't have that AM: many friends growing up because one, my classmates were much older than I, and I AM: was kind of an anomaly to them.

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AM: Plus, culturally, I thought differently than they did. AM: So like when you're in Bangladesh, you know, 90% of the classmates are Bengali AM: and we didn't belong with them. AM: And–and it was a Catholic school so, you know, there were some

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AM: foreigners there. So that was the same thing in Pakistan. AM: That was the same—Burma was the only one that I could have had made friends, but I was AM: also not age appropriate because by the time I was in second grade, I was seven years-old, AM: I think, and everybody else was, you know, ten and twelve so you know how

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AM: kids are. SL: Yeah. Young Sheldon, huh? AM: [laughs] So I don't know if I'm giving you too much data or not enough data. AM: Let me know.

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SL: No, no. SL: I really like everything that, you know, you're sharing right now. SL: I guess firstly— AM: Yeah, I've got a book I'm writing called The Human From Outer Space.

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AM: That's how I feel. SL: Oh, really? You're an author too? AM: Yeah. SL: Wow. You wear many different hats.

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AM: I don't write under my name so. AM: [SL: Oh] No I, you know. AM: Yeah. It's not wearing different hats, I believe that—I don't know if you've ever read AM: Robert Heinlein.

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AM: He wrote the book Dune and few other things. AM: He has a treatise that's called Human Being where he goes through what a human AM: being should be able to do and says, specialization's for insects. AM: And you're a neuroscientist so some of the things you guys study is how the brain works.

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AM: And people just specialize and let the rest of their brain die out. SL: Yeah. And you consider yourself a generalist? AM: Yeah, I-I was talking—I volunteered at the Bayou City Arts Festival AM: with my daughter and young lady she's mentoring from Afghanistan, and there was a

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AM: young Hispanic guy that was working. AM: And because both of them are beautiful, he was trying to get on my good side so he could AM: get to their phone numbers. AM: But, you know, I was telling him the same thing that I told you just now.

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AM: And I said, you know—so he came up with this saying that I like even better, which is AM: like, you know, somebody's a jack of all trades, master of none, but it's AM: better to be a jack of all trades and be master of none than to be a master of one AM: and not understand the rest of the world.

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SL: Right. Right. SL: Yeah. I guess this is also a tangent, but what–what SL: was your sickness exactly when you were growing up? SL: I forgot to ask earlier.

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AM: Whats? What? Repeat the question, please. SL: You said you were pretty sickly so did you have a specific illness? AM: No. You know what it was? AM: It was kind of sad because both my parents and that age group smoked a lot,

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AM: and I'm deathly allergic to cigarettes, so they–they took me through and get all tested, AM: and they thought I had an immunodeficiency disease or something like that. AM: And then I figured it out at age 8 or 9, that it was their AM: smoking that was causing that.

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AM: So when we moved to Bangladesh, my father wasn't there anymore because he was living AM: someplace else. I mean, he'd come to visit. AM: So my exposure to cigarettes got a lot less, and my mother wasn't smoking. AM: So I got better.

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AM: And one of the things that led to my life here in the AM: US is that I have to stay away from smoking, and AM: a lot of people that, you know, m-might be exposing me to those AM: irritants. So.

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SL: Right. And how about your siblings? SL: How many siblings did you have and how was your relationship with them? SL: And did any of them have the similar problem with smoking as you did? AM: No. I-I'm the only one that had the breathing issues and the smoking allergies.

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AM: I have three sisters who are still alive. AM: One brother who's passed away. AM: One of the things—one of the enigma that's Abraham, me, is that all three AM: sisters have nothing in common with me when you ask for the relationship.

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AM: My brother and I had a lot more in common. AM: He had joined the Air Force a couple of years before I did. AM: And, you know, we got along fine. AM: We had no issues. And he passed away with colon cancer about 20 years ago.

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AM: But my sisters have developed into their own world AM: of their prejudices or whatever. AM: So what I wind up doing, I have five siblings, as I call my sisters, that I AM: chose them as my sisters.

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AM: So three of them were with the air—military that I-I AM: met. AM: One's a black lady woman that lives in South Carolina. AM: We just came back from visiting her.

00:24:48.630 - 00:25:04.340

AM: Another one is—I'm very proud of—lives in San Antonio, AM: and then another one that lives in Baltimore with her husband. AM: So the two—first two were single, the other one is married. AM: All three of them have known me for at least 30 years.

00:25:04.520 - 00:25:15.590

AM: I consider them more my sisters. AM: One is a Lebanese. AM: The lady in San Antonio is—sister is the Lebanese. AM: The one in South Carolina, like I said, is black and then

00:25:15.590 - 00:25:32.330

AM: one is—Arlene is Anglo, and married to a very good AM: man, and I have two other ladies that I've kind of adopted over the years. AM: One is a Russian Jew who lives in Boston now. AM: She used to be in Houston, and then Bev, who lives in Seattle, Tacoma with her

00:25:32.330 - 00:25:49.450

AM: husband. So those five are more my sisters than my AM: biological ones. SL: I see. Do you still see them around, though, your biological sisters? AM: Well, the youngest one and I are never going to talk again because she has pulled too

00:25:49.450 - 00:26:06.100

AM: many sublime tricks and other things. AM: The oldest one and I talk sometimes. AM: She lives in San Antonio also with her husband, who is the Bangladeshi, AM: and the middle one is the one I probably talk the most.

00:26:06.100 - 00:26:22.720

AM: But she is an ultra religious Muslim. AM: So one is ultra religious Christian, one is ultra religious Muslim, and AM: the other one kind of just pretends to get along. AM: And me being an agnostic, you know, like I'm not an

00:26:22.720 - 00:26:37.600

AM: atheist because I'm not arrogant enough to think I know the answers. AM: I'm agnostic. I just don't care about organized religion. AM: I care about how they treat me. AM: So the five women that I call my sisters, none of—one of them is

00:26:37.600 - 00:26:46.660

AM: very Southern Baptist. AM: The black lady, Marjorie is very Southern Baptist, and she says she has to tolerate me AM: because she loves my daughter. AM: But we get along fine.

00:26:46.660 - 00:27:01.510

AM: I mean, we stayed at her house a couple of months ago when we went to visit her, and AM: we attended her church with her. AM: So she's always surprised that I don't believe in organized religion, but I'll go to AM: her church and worship with her as I'm worshiping to the creation, not the, crea—you

00:27:01.510 - 00:27:15.420

AM: know, not the organized religion. AM: So that kind of sets me apart. AM: And some of those differences gel a lot more in me when I started dating, because I AM: married very young with somebody that I knew at an early age.

00:27:15.900 - 00:27:29.000

AM: So we were married for 25 years and when I started dating, I didn't know how to date or AM: any of that. [SL: Right.] And especially with the advent of online dating, that kind AM: of really changes, you know, how people look at you. SL: Mhm.

00:27:29.650 - 00:27:42.550

AM: And I don't date people at work and even my civilian career or my AM: military career, I didn't date anybody. AM: I would never do that. AM: So that kind of limited my exposure to potential romantic partners.

00:27:42.550 - 00:27:58.480

AM: But I learned, you know, like there's a lot of hypocrisy in religion, a lot of AM: hypocrisy in racial profiling AM: of dates and stuff. AM: One woman once told me she was Anglo, that she only dates men of color.

00:27:58.480 - 00:28:08.170

AM: I'm like, we're all colors, you know? AM: "No I mean black guys, that's all I date. AM: I don't date anybody else." Whereas her mother was telling her, give Abraham a AM: chance, but she [unintelligible].

00:28:08.440 - 00:28:22.540

AM: And–and it was really funny now; it wasn't when I went through it for a day or so. AM: It was like, really? I have a job, I have a home, you know? AM: I'm well–well connected and all that stuff. AM: I can help you do a lot of things, yet you choose somebody that's

00:28:22.540 - 00:28:36.220

AM: non-productive for you, but that's—it is what it is. AM: [SL: Right.] I have another book coming out on that one. AM: Like men are stupid and where have all the men gone? AM: Good men gone. Because all my women friends are always asking me, "where have all the

00:28:36.220 - 00:28:52.800

AM: good men gone?" And lot—a lot of my men are saying, "hey, I don't understand this." And I AM: said, "we're stupid. Men are stupid." We don't–we don't get the mating game sometimes AM: . That was a big thing. SL: I guess on the topic, if you're comfortable sharing a little bit about your first

00:28:52.800 - 00:29:08.580

SL: marriage, as well as maybe your daughters and granddaughters SL: and family stuff. AM: Yeah. Yeah, I came back from active duty the first AM: time, and my children's mother

00:29:09.180 - 00:29:25.260

AM: had been married and divorced at a very young age, and I didn't want to get married. AM: I wanted to have a kid but not get married. AM: So I had made arrangements with the Surrogate Parenting Association of AM: Tennessee to go out and donate my material to make a

00:29:25.260 - 00:29:38.900

AM: baby, and I already sign—I was going to sign the papers. AM: The night I was going to go, she asked me to marry her. AM: And we had one biological son, the–the one that has the girl–the AM: da—granddaughters and one biological daughter.

00:29:39.410 - 00:29:51.380

AM: But in between, we adopted three other young ladies. AM: One was through CPS. AM: The other two were neighbors of friends, children that wanted to move with us AM: or live with us.

00:29:51.380 - 00:30:06.770

AM: So we wound up adopting them and lasted for 25 years. AM: She was Anglo, she is Anglo. AM: But you know, just to kind of share just a little bit to see why I'm divorced, she AM: decided at a—at our 25th—or 20th wedding anniversary

00:30:07.400 - 00:30:20.120

AM: that she was gay, like her mother. AM: And said, "Hey honey, I can change, but not that much." So I wound up AM: keeping my daughter as a single parent. AM: I had full custody and she stayed with me till she was 17,

00:30:21.650 - 00:30:34.220

AM: and then I got called up to active duty several times. AM: I stayed in the reserves for most—some part of the time, but they actually brought me out AM: of retirement twice. AM: That's why my resume/CV is kind of confusing .

00:30:34.820 - 00:30:45.530

SL: Right. SL: Then maybe we can kind of touch on that. SL: Firstly–firstly I want to talk [AM: It's your time, buddy.] What's SL: up?

00:30:46.620 - 00:31:00.060

AM: I said it's your time. I know sometimes I go on a tangent, but no seriously. SL: No, no, all of your stories are amazing and I enjoy hearing them, so don't feel rushed or SL: anything. But I guess there is a lot of missing information here that would help kind SL: of move the story.

00:31:00.060 - 00:31:12.660

SL: So I guess I wanted to ask you about your military experience, because I'm sure that's SL: kind of linked to your immigration experience? AM: Well, no, yeah. It's kind of an interesting—immigration and military AM: experience is tied together.

00:31:12.840 - 00:31:26.670

AM: I was 17 years—16 years old. AM: My parents had come finally, and they weren't used to me, you know, AM: being as independent as they had thought I would be. AM: But I'd lived on my own for two years by the time they came here.

00:31:26.670 - 00:31:41.490

AM: So I had to teach them how to drive. AM: I had to teach them all the banking and all the American things, you know, how to get a AM: job, blah, blah, blah, blah. So at 16, I was working at Jack in the Box over there by AM: the Astrodome, and I decided I didn't want to be flipping hamburgers.

00:31:41.880 - 00:31:59.370

AM: So my brother had joined the Air Force a few years before, and the draft was ending for AM: the Vietnam War so there was no need for draft worries. AM: But I decided to join because I wanted to be a pilot, at sev—and so AM: I scored high enough. I had already had two years of college, so they took me, Air Force

00:31:59.370 - 00:32:13.110

AM: took me in and wanted me to become—you know, recruiters lie. AM: I don't care what they say. AM: They said I'd be able to finish college and become a pilot, you know, if I qualified, AM: obviously. But I did well enough in tech school.

00:32:13.530 - 00:32:31.980

AM: I was autopilot instrument technician at the time to where I got AM: placed in the high top secret unit, reconnaissance unit, AM: and within a few months of being there, they sent me to AM: Vietnam because we were doing reconnaissance support—communication support for

00:32:31.980 - 00:32:47.580

AM: all the–the communication satellites were out. AM: We, you know, our squadron was flying U-2s and AM: SR-71s to provide communications platforms. AM: So I was a technician so we were there.

00:32:47.580 - 00:33:02.640

AM: But be-being the last ones in Vietnam, they would pull us into AM: whatever needed to be done to where, you know, your age group doesn't think that you AM: guys invented drones, but we had drones back then, in 1974. AM: They had them even before that.

00:33:02.640 - 00:33:20.460

AM: And we would fly drones from Utapao, Thailand and go to NKP AM: Thailand and fly off the drones into Laos, Cambodia. AM: And the drones invariably would fall down or whatever, or get lost and we had to go AM: get them. So we were in combat duty even though you were an aircraft technician,

00:33:20.490 - 00:33:36.300

AM: you're sitting there in combat zone trying to pick up the drones and get the helicopters AM: to pick it up. So it was a very interesting two years of my life. AM: And then you'd come home, you'd be there for 6 to 8 weeks and you'd come home to Tucson, AM: Arizona, and then later, Beale Air Force Base in California.

00:33:36.300 - 00:33:53.880

AM: So that was kind of a learning experience, and I stayed in friends with one of the AM: guys that was there with me during those times. AM: But he and I di—you know, divert, digressed hugely in how we live and what we AM: do. So that was the beginning of my career, and then I came out of active duty, went to

00:33:53.880 - 00:34:11.040

AM: school, got my degree, started working for IBM, but I stayed in the Air Force because AM: part of the agreement for me to get out early after Vietnam was that I would AM: fulfill the time in reserves. AM: So I went working for IBM and in the reserves, and I

00:34:11.040 - 00:34:26.250

AM: changed jobs every 2 to 3 years in the reserves and then IBM AM: also. And as I got my degree, they moved me to Austin a-as an AM: industrial engineer. AM: So that's where the the-there's a lot of duplication of time or it

00:34:26.250 - 00:34:43.470

AM: seems there's a crossover of time. AM: But in Austin, I was in the reserve unit there, plus working at AM: IBM, and during 1986, AM: or at least '87, I was deployed active

00:34:43.470 - 00:34:56.980

AM: duty to Korea. AM: There was a young Air Force person—a mil—an Army person got killed. AM: So they, you know, they thought we were going to war so they deployed us. AM: Textbooks don't cover you, news media doesn't have, but you can find it there

00:34:56.980 - 00:35:11.940

AM: [unintelligible] so we got deployed. AM: And during that deployment, under combat conditions, I was promoted to an AM: officer from being an enlisted person. AM: So my career went from being a technician enlisted to an officer

00:35:11.940 - 00:35:23.040

AM: in leadership role. AM: And eventually I wound up, you know, retiring as a lieutenant AM: colonel/colonel managing nuclear weapons. AM: So you can see how my career progressed.

00:35:23.040 - 00:35:39.000

AM: But in the meantime, I–I–I get bored every 2 to 3 years in the Air AM: Force, especially after my divorce that was going on in AM: 2004-2005. AM: I decided—they brought me out of retirement, assigned me to an Army unit to where I

00:35:39.000 - 00:35:57.940

AM: was a combat controller, opening up airfields, managing combat AM: controllers and different things that some I can talk, some I can't AM: yet. And in 2010 I got injured so I–I came off AM: of active duty for a while, and then they brought me back six months later when, you

00:35:58.130 - 00:36:13.220

AM: know, when I healed. AM: The–the–the thing about the military, especially the category of reserve I was, is AM: they don't have to pay you if they don't keep you active duty for 30 days. AM: So they would give me orders for—they would deploy me for 29 days or 159

00:36:13.220 - 00:36:26.080

AM: days, depending on what they needed done. AM: And that determined their cost to me, but I had a great job on the civilian side, so I AM: didn't care that they weren't going to give me benefits because I already had benefits AM: from my civilian job that carried over.

00:36:26.080 - 00:36:43.070

AM: [SL: Right.] Like IBM was very good and gracious about me getting called up to active AM: duty, like during Desert Storm, Desert Shield; there's so many different campaigns AM: that I got called up to [SL: Mhm.] between 30 days to 40 days. AM: Plus, I was married and had kids, so I didn't want to stay deployed.

00:36:43.070 - 00:37:01.880

AM: So I would take the projects, so to speak, to do that. AM: So it's–it's a hard one to explain and a lot of military guys even don't understand it. AM: There's probably about 11 of us in the country that had similar jobs. AM: And in fact, I got in a little, you know, sidetrack—little argument with an Army guy

00:37:01.880 - 00:37:13.730

AM: who only served one year. I said "Dude. AM: I served a 40 year period, 32 good years. AM: Eight of them were retired and I retired full." You know, I had a full AM: retirement from the Air Force.

00:37:15.680 - 00:37:30.320

AM: It is what it is. AM: [SL: Wow. Wow.] Does that give you—yeah, and then—on the civilian AM: side, I started with IBM and recurring office equipment. AM: They found out that I could write code, so they put me

00:37:30.320 - 00:37:47.690

AM: in–in the lab in Dallas so from there, they learned that I AM: can talk and convince people and deliver. AM: So they made me into what became IBM Professional Services, which—where I AM: managed contracts for IBM at other companies like Hughes

00:37:47.690 - 00:38:05.300

AM: Aircraft, and was the biggest contract that I had, and a lot of smaller AM: contracts. Victoria's Secrets was the best contract I had, but it wasn't anything like AM: what people thought it would be. SL: Wow. What are some other civilian jobs you've held or experiences that

00:38:05.300 - 00:38:19.970

SL: you've had? AM: Well, I had my own mor—insurance consulting business to where a AM: lot of independent insurance and se—insurance agencies get in trouble because AM: they don't know how to manage. So I ran a side business with that, and I had a daycare

00:38:19.970 - 00:38:34.910

AM: that I owned and operated for a while. AM: I had a real estate business on the side where I bought and 'flipped homes', which is AM: what you guys call now, but we did it, you know, we actually worked on them and AM: stayed with them and had deals.

00:38:35.000 - 00:38:48.830

AM: So those were the side jobs that I had. AM: You know, that's one thing—when I retired, right about the time I was getting a divorce. AM: I think that's why she probably left, because she figured I'd be home. AM: I'd catch her doing what she wasn't supposed to do.

00:38:48.830 - 00:39:05.630

AM: But anyways, so I retired and then the military brought me back out AM: for three, I think 30 months, I think was the longest there. AM: And then they brought me out again and kept me for three years, which is when I don't AM: know if you remember, you're too young.

00:39:05.630 - 00:39:20.630

AM: I don't know how old you are, but since you're in college, I'm a—I'm assuming you're AM: under 30. AM: But 25 years ago or so, Minot Air AM: Force Base technicians mistakenly sent a bunch of nuclear bomb

00:39:20.630 - 00:39:32.580

AM: parts to Taiwan. AM: [SL: Mhm.] And so they brought me out of retirement for that to fix that problem, AM: to see how that happened. AM: So, and they gave me 90 days to figure it out.

00:39:32.730 - 00:39:41.070

AM: I had it figured out in a week. AM: And so we put a stop to that. AM: So then they kept me. AM: [SL: Wow.] The–the other one was that I can't-Yeah.

00:39:42.330 - 00:39:57.540

AM: It's like, you know, we were buying parts from the Chinese army-owned AM: and putting them in nuclear weapons. AM: So that was the other assignment that I had, which I figured out and showed them that, AM: you know an FPGA—because I had one of the jobs I had was working for Dallas

00:39:57.540 - 00:40:16.770

AM: Semiconductor when I lived up there and I worked with chip designers and chip AM: manufacturing. So I knew what a circuit of an FPGA, which is a AM: field programmable gate array, was, and the Chinese government was putting AM: in wifi and other non-declared

00:40:16.770 - 00:40:28.890

AM: circuits in there. AM: And I figured it out and it was kind of interesting. AM: The reason I can tell you is because it made the newspapers, but the people that got AM: credit was the Israeli consulting company that

00:40:29.580 - 00:40:45.120

AM: actually was brought in to verify that I had done it because nobody wanted to believe that AM: I knew how a circuit would look like without actually examining it. AM: It's like, "Dude, I used to design this stuff." SL: So, could you—just to backtrack a little bit, what

00:40:45.360 - 00:40:53.970

SL: was your college education like? SL: Did you complete your degree? SL: And I know later you got a Master's. SL: So I guess I want to talk a little bit about your formal education.

00:40:54.980 - 00:41:12.170

AM: Yeah. You know, even though I was in college at age 14, I didn't get a AM: degree till probably I think it was tw—1984. AM: So I was 28 from UH. AM: And it's an industrial technology degree because I was married, working in the

00:41:12.170 - 00:41:26.870

AM: reserves. So it was the easiest one that my counselor talked me into it. AM: And that's what got me the assignment with IBM in–in Austin. AM: This is an industrial engineering degree. AM: But—and then I have a masters of aviation from the Air Force

00:41:26.870 - 00:41:43.370

AM: University, which I'd never worked, even though—never AM: used, even though before I got that degree, I had AM: seven months or eight month job at Northrop Grumman testing the space AM: shuttle engines for vibration and acoustical—b

00:41:46.200 - 00:42:02.100

AM: asically reaction, so to speak, to where when the AM: space shuttle engines started running, you have tremendous amount of AM: acoustical and vibration stress put on the engine. AM: So I did some testing on that for about 6 or 7 months.

00:42:02.520 - 00:42:18.930

AM: And then I found out I was deathly allergic to some of the chemicals we were using AM: to attach sensors and so I wound up going back to AM: IBM because I quit IBM to work for Northrop Grumman. SL: Yeah. Wow, that's a long rap sheet.

00:42:18.960 - 00:42:36.960

SL: I—I know you mentioned—[AM: Yeah, it is.] I know you mentioned skills in SL: programming, real estate, management, consulting... SL: Were a lot of these skills kind of self-taught then? AM: Yeah. I—one of the things IBM did was they paid me to get my master's in

00:42:36.960 - 00:42:50.100

AM: telecommunication, which I kind of left like one semester before I was AM: supposed to do it, and switched and got a master's in health sciences, AM: which you say, what the heck? AM: But it is what it is.

00:42:50.100 - 00:43:06.930

AM: I just need a master's to get promoted in the Air Force so I picked the fastest route I AM: could do, but—well, because when I was injured, AM: I was still assigned to an active duty unit. AM: And to get promoted to colonel, I needed to have a master's degree so I found a

00:43:06.930 - 00:43:22.380

AM: school that allowed me to gain it in less than a year. AM: So that was the fastest I could do it. AM: [SL: Wow.] So, you know, then there military science, AM: I should have gotten a PhD in something similar, but instead I

00:43:22.800 - 00:43:38.530

AM: went into a PhD for microbiology program. AM: And then I said, the heck with it, I'm done, so. AM: I–I try to go get a law degree, start law school AM: because—and it's like, nah, I'm not going to make it back to school.

00:43:38.590 - 00:43:53.990

AM: People are just... SL: Wow. So you've-you've tried almost everything, huh? AM: Yeah. If you look—go look up the Treatise on Human Beings by Robert Heinlein. AM: What a human being should be able to do.

00:43:53.990 - 00:44:06.650

AM: I think that–that was my roadmap. AM: I wanted to do everything on his list. SL: Wow. So your philosophy was kind of experiencing as much as possible, SL: gaining baseline proficiency in a range of skills and all sorts of fields?

00:44:07.860 - 00:44:22.890

AM: Yeah, that—but—that was my driving force but the other one was my father. AM: When he lost everything during nationalization, all he was was, you know, AM: a shopkeeper is what he used to call himself. AM: And he couldn't do anything, even though he had a degree and he could have taught and

00:44:22.890 - 00:44:38.160

AM: gotten his teaching credentials when he came here, he had—you know, he didn't do it. AM: He just wanted to be a shopkeeper. AM: And I wound up supporting him for 15 years after they came here. AM: And I never wanted to be in that position to where all I had was one

00:44:38.160 - 00:44:52.670

AM: skill or one—all my eggs in one basket. SL: I see, I guess— AM: I probably overcompensated. SL: What was your experience like originally coming to the United States?

00:44:52.760 - 00:45:01.130

SL: Did you come alone? SL: Who did you come with? SL: And you know, what was that transition like for you? AM: Yeah, it's kind of interesting.

00:45:01.140 - 00:45:14.820

AM: Thank you for asking that. AM: And I got here in December of 197—69, abo AM: ut to be New Years '70 and I was 14, alone. AM: I was supposed to be met by my brother and my two sisters.

00:45:14.820 - 00:45:32.040

AM: Instead, there was an Anglo woman who said she was my sister-in-law, but AM: they were getting a divorce. I didn't know that my brother was married, that he even had AM: a wife. So she took me and took me to an empty apartment and says "Well, your brother AM: and I used to live here, but he's joined the Air Force and he's gone and–a

00:45:32.700 - 00:45:49.290

AM: nd I'm living in this apartment down the street. AM: Your two sisters are about to get married, so you have about 30 days to be here. AM: And then you're going to have to move in with one of your sisters." And, you AM: know, it turned out that the older sister was married and she was living in a garage

00:45:49.290 - 00:46:04.170

AM: apartment, so they couldn't keep me. AM: And then the middle sister was married to a devout Muslim who was willing to AM: keep me but I had to follow, you know, the–the Islamic rules and all that stuff, AM: which I wasn't going to do at that point.

00:46:04.170 - 00:46:16.970

AM: So I left at age 14. AM: My—I had a car that I had access to, so I bought it with some AM: money that I had left over after coming here. AM: [SL: This was in Houston?] And I lived in my car for a couple.

00:46:17.790 - 00:46:26.850

AM: Yeah. In Houston. SL: Okay, okay. Sorry. AM: Yeah. So I didn't have a home basically in 30 days AM: after coming here.

00:46:26.880 - 00:46:44.130

AM: My older sister had dropped me off in Montrose and off of bins in a AM: home. And at that time Montrose was very gay, so it was very hard to avoid. AM: I mean, I looked like—I was 14, but I looked like I was 12. AM: So one day this short order cook from Hyatt Regency Hotel

00:46:44.130 - 00:46:56.070

AM: downtown and I ran into each other on the street and she asked me what I was doing, AM: who I was, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I told her my story. AM: She said, you could come live with me and you'll be safe. AM: I'll watch out for you.

00:46:56.070 - 00:47:06.230

AM: So for about nine months, I stayed in Third Ward. AM: I don't know if you're familiar with that. AM: It's very gentrified now, but back in the day it was very black. AM: Black Panthers were all over the place.

00:47:06.240 - 00:47:25.600

AM: I lived with her and, you know, got a job working at Highland Regency at age AM: 15. I got—I emancipated myself pretty AM: much through the court system, got a driver's license, so I was able to sign a AM: lease at age 16 and lived–lived on by myself until my parents came

00:47:25.600 - 00:47:37.930

AM: about six months later. AM: And then I had to teach them all that stuff, you know, how to get a driver's AM: license, how to drive, how to do all this stuff. AM: So and then at 17, I joined the service because I just didn't want to be

00:47:38.650 - 00:47:48.280

AM: taking care of them. AM: The–the dynamics were very different. AM: When parents expect you to be a kid and you've been on your own on the street and AM: then on your own for three years, almost.

00:47:48.370 - 00:47:57.400

SL: Right. And- AM: And then just one more piece. AM: When I joined the Air Force and they put me in this top secret unit, they found out I was AM: not a citizen.

00:47:57.670 - 00:48:16.360

AM: I had a green card, but I d—was not a citizen because I'd come in legally. AM: So they–they had—because I was only 17, they had to appoint AM: a guardian for me to go through the naturalization pro-process. AM: So I was naturalized at age 17, about to be 18, with my shop chief

00:48:16.600 - 00:48:28.600

AM: as my guardian, so to speak, because, you know, the military. AM: But they wanted to keep me. AM: So they went out of their way to give me the naturalization citizenship, AM: so that was kind of an interesting story.

00:48:30.910 - 00:48:44.680

SL: Mhm. Then, I guess what SL: was–what was this transition like? SL: I know I noted on your survey that you speak a lot of languages. SL: So I guess like a lot of stuff for you to be doing all of this on your own, you would have

00:48:44.680 - 00:48:55.000

SL: to be pretty proficient in English and kind of, you know, culturally perceptive. SL: So what was that like when you first got here? SL: Did you have any... AM: Yeah, that's such a great question.

00:48:55.210 - 00:49:08.170

AM: Lisa Zeiler is the name that comes to mind. AM: I wish I could find her. AM: I–I had no idea how to get a job, but I would see help wanted signs, right? AM: Culturally, I didn't know. Even though I spoke the Queen's English, American English

00:49:08.170 - 00:49:20.500

AM: is very different. AM: I spoke British English because of the schooling and stuff. AM: So I went to apply for a job and Lisa was the AM: secretary. She was the same age, 16, 17.

00:49:20.530 - 00:49:35.680

AM: Her mother owned a headhunting company, so she AM: got me a job as a mortgage company clerk. AM: I don't know how they pulled it off. AM: I was 15 years old, running a mortgage messaging sort of service for a mortgage

00:49:35.680 - 00:49:49.630

AM: company, so that was a great—you know, I got really lucky AM: and–and, you know, like running into Willie . AM: Black woman, short order cook, no education, but she provided me some AM: stability and protection.

00:49:49.630 - 00:50:05.170

AM: So I've been lucky at each step of the way. AM: People ask me, like when I adopted Jesse six years ago as a single parent, they're AM: like, "What the heck are you doing?" I'm like, I'm just paying back, Willie, you know? AM: I'm paying it forward to where all my life I've been very lucky that

00:50:05.170 - 00:50:23.320

AM: no matter what happened, there was somebody, a guardian angel or whatever you want to call AM: it, a guide shows up and I'm very much into- you know, you asked me earlier AM: about culture and ethnicity if I was to claim one, which I don't have any blood, AM: but I would claim the First Nation, Native Americans

00:50:24.160 - 00:50:41.380

AM: and Hopi being the–the tribe I know the best, and Chickasaw AM: secondarily, is they have a concept of guide-guides AM: that show up in your life to kind of walk you through the thing. AM: And I've been very lucky, even at age 67, I've always had, you know, I can say even

00:50:41.380 - 00:50:58.000

AM: last-three years ago when I had open heart surgery, AM: that if you look at my heart surgeon, you think he was homeless, but he'd performed a AM: miracle, replacing a heart valve for me. AM: And I had people that I thought were just acquaintances, stepped in to

00:50:58.000 - 00:51:13.000

AM: take care of Jesse because I had just adopted her. AM: She was two years into my life at that point. AM: And so there's always—I've been lucky, you know, and–and one of them was a AM: Syrian who grew up in Ireland and married an Irish woman.

00:51:13.000 - 00:51:30.070

AM: So he was kind of—he gets it right? AM: And then the other one was the a guy that I had mentored—w AM: as from India and he's married to an Anglo, and AM: he and Hassan took care of Jesse because Jesse was kind of just lost,

00:51:30.100 - 00:51:43.240

AM: you know, he or she got adopted and the man is going through open heart surgery. AM: So the–they took really good care of her. AM: So p-people step into my life. AM: And, you know, I was talking to the monks yesterday about karma.

00:51:43.240 - 00:51:56.800

AM: And the–the definition of karma is very different to a Tibetan than it is to a AM: Hindu. And they live in India. AM: So he was trying to explain that, no, no, I get it. AM: That's like it's your action and reaction and causation to an action that comes

00:51:56.800 - 00:52:12.100

AM: through, not the, you know, the westernized definition of karma. AM: So we had an interesting talk and nobody had shown up. AM: They were supposed to give a audience of 50, 60 people AM: how to do, you know, their Mandela and how they were making a Mandela.

00:52:12.100 - 00:52:27.820

AM: And there was just-Jesse and I were the only ones there and then my friend Steven came in AM: later. So I think I've been very lucky, you know, it's like when I got divorced, it AM: was the worst time of my life, pretty much. AM: But one of my mentors in the military called me up and said, "Hey, I'm going to activate

00:52:27.820 - 00:52:38.320

AM: you and send you to Africa to do some stuff." And that was the be—you know, AM: very dangerous health-wise to me. AM: I got injured. AM: But it was a great experience.

00:52:38.320 - 00:52:53.040

AM: I learned a lot and I met a lot of new friends and went a totally different AM: direction in how, you know, I look at my career. AM: So it is what it is. SL: Yeah. I mean, it seems like you have a very open outlook on, you

00:52:53.040 - 00:53:05.820

SL: know, philosophy of living. SL: How–how do you think you try to perpetuate this philosophy in your SL: parenting and how you pass it on to not just your children and your grandchildren, but the SL: people around you?

00:53:07.150 - 00:53:18.790

AM: The thing that I find interesting is I'm sad that my children are made into AM: pawns with my ex-wife. AM: She is no longer gay. She married a white, very insecure person. AM: He doesn't work, he stays home.

00:53:18.790 - 00:53:34.060

AM: So he perpetuates a lot of negative feelings and negative opinions about AM: me. But the way I perpetuate it is go talk to people, AM: hold—you know, pick up a lot of mentees AM: in meetups.

00:53:34.060 - 00:53:47.230

AM: I don't know if you're familiar with meetups. AM: And like, we were at the Bayou City Arts Festival. AM: Jesse had her mentee. AM: She's mentoring a young woman from Afghanistan because I've been teaching her.

00:53:47.260 - 00:54:03.850

AM: You know, you asked about perpetuating how I feel, and she's taken on that AM: role because I kind of, you know, as an adoptee, I had to mentor her AM: from and deprogram her for all the things she had learned. AM: So she's trying to help another person, and I hope that's what

00:54:03.850 - 00:54:19.580

AM: perpetuates, you know, paying it forward. AM: One of the things that I find that's negative about me is I'm an empath. AM: I can feel any emotion or AM: thoughts, not detail.

00:54:19.580 - 00:54:35.360

AM: I don't know what you're thinking, what a person is thinking, but I can feel a lot, AM: like when I met Jesse, I knew she was in trouble with her biological family, so I AM: offered her say, "Hey, if you need a parent, you're welcome to–to call me Papa." AM: And eventually I wound up legally adopting her.

00:54:35.540 - 00:54:50.810

AM: So I just lived my life. AM: I mean, Daoism, I guess, and Native American is just do what you think is AM: correct. Live in harmony with nature as much as you can, AM: and living that life, I'm just happy with who I am.

00:54:50.810 - 00:55:01.640

AM: You know, they asked me when I got—after I woke up from my AM: open heart surgery. AM: I said, how are you going to change your life? AM: And I said, well, this is not the first time I have died.

00:55:01.640 - 00:55:15.440

AM: I died when I got shot and I came out of that. AM: But this one was the plan, you know, I knew, you know, I was going to get done, but AM: I don't really have any regrets how I've lived. AM: Yeah, I've made mistakes and I've done some things, but I can look at

00:55:15.440 - 00:55:28.100

AM: myself and say I've done the right thing. AM: I have three core values, which most people can't tell you, and unfortunately, AM: unfortunately, they're the same that the Air Force has, which is service before self; m AM: eans help others.

00:55:28.100 - 00:55:42.260

AM: Respect for everybody and everything. AM: And then integrity and everything that I do. AM: And that has led me to not be upset with life. AM: I get upset with people, but I'm not upset with myself or the universe.

00:55:44.150 - 00:55:59.860

AM: It's a long answer. I hope they make sense. SL: No, I–I think you phrased it really nicely. SL: And I think you shared a lot of lessons that are SL: important for people, especially in my generation, to be able to process and

00:55:59.860 - 00:56:10.460

SL: reflect upon. AM: I think so. I think, you know, your generation. AM: I'm assuming you're about 26, 25? SL: I'm 21.

00:56:11.150 - 00:56:26.090

AM: Oh, wow. You're just a baby. AM: Okay, so y—especially your generation with social media and the AM: technology. You know, I felt bad because technology wasn't working. AM: Because I–I usually like Google Meet or I use WebEx because that always works.

00:56:26.090 - 00:56:41.540

AM: WebEx, especially always works. AM: It's—I'm very technology aware and having white hair and being 67 even though I don't AM: look it, you know, they see the white hair and they kind of AM: either are very-especially the Asians are very respectful, obviously, because you're

00:56:41.540 - 00:56:55.310

AM: brought up that way. AM: But most Americans think you're stupid, you know, not that you're not American, AM: but you grew up in a different culture than the average white person AM: or—so that's the harder thing is you guys don't

00:56:55.580 - 00:57:10.570

AM: have—I hate to use the word hero, but you don't AM: have role models in life. AM: You know, you look at political people, they're all sleazeballs. AM: You look at the entertainment people, you look at influencers.

00:57:10.570 - 00:57:29.470

AM: And one of the reasons I like hanging out at Rice campus, because you do have some AM: people—I hang out at the physics department a lot and attend a lot of their lectures. AM: And I attend a lot of lectures with the religion and philosophy group AM: people. And it's kind of interesting to share what you just asked, is

00:57:29.470 - 00:57:45.270

AM: your generation had never heard of Pascal's Wager. AM: I don't know if you have. I mean, you're–you're in a different discipline, but AM: if you were in religion discipline, I would expect you to know. AM: Pascal's Wager is when–I mean, boil it down.

00:57:45.270 - 00:58:00.030

AM: He says it's okay if I–I live a good life, ethical life, and go to AM: church. If there's a God, I'm okay. AM: If there's no God, I'm-I'm still okay. AM: And I call Abraham's wager like, just live a normal life regardless of whether there's a

00:58:00.180 - 00:58:11.550

AM: God or not. AM: And the young kids there didn't understand that. AM: It's like, you know, I'm not saying don't believe in God. AM: I don't—I'm not saying don't believe in religion, but have your compass, your core

00:58:11.550 - 00:58:26.700

AM: values that you live by. AM: And that's, you know, if there is a God, I know I'm going to argue with her or, AM: you know, it's a joke, but, you know, whatever deity that is, I'm willing to argue AM: and say, "Hey, I lived an ethical, moral life, and I gave the three lessons that we're

00:58:26.700 - 00:58:44.010

AM: supposed to live by." [SL: Yeah. AM: Wow.] To me, those are easier to remember than the Ten Commandments. AM: If you look, you know, Daoism and Confucianism or even AM: Buddhism—Buddhism especially gets really detailed in eight

00:58:44.610 - 00:58:59.220

AM: empowerment rules and eight this or seven this or whatever. AM: It's like, to me, if you live ethically, you're not going to steal, you're not going AM: to lie, blah, blah, blah. If you live morally, you're not going to cheat on your AM: neighbor's wife, blah, blah, blah, right?

00:58:59.220 - 00:59:11.860

AM: And then the service before self, it's—it takes care of ev—the AM: Ten Commandments. So to me that's even simpler. SL: Yeah. AM: To teach you guys or expose you to it.

00:59:11.860 - 00:59:24.460

AM: You know, like gentleman I was—wrote me earlier, he was asking me, oh, you advise me AM: to do this? Like I didn't advise you anything. AM: I just gave you information. AM: And that's how I try to live, is just give information.

00:59:25.420 - 00:59:39.790

AM: Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm not. SL: Yeah. Very wise. SL: I guess then, kind SL: of moving away from these bigger things.

00:59:39.940 - 00:59:55.390

SL: What are some—like what now? SL: You're retired, it seems like you are settled. SL: What are some things you hope to accomplish with your time now? SL: And do you have any, like, bucket list items that, like, maybe don't have to be so

00:59:55.390 - 01:00:10.090

SL: deep, but just fun? AM: Okay. Well, I mean, part of it is–is, you know, encoding your generation and even AM: younger with some value systems that you can live by, right? AM: So I have a blog that's called JustStreetSense.com.

01:00:12.190 - 01:00:25.730

AM: It kind of—when I was sick, it kind of went out and somebody AM: encrypted it so I'm having to relaunch it. AM: And I do a lot of podcasts on critical thinking and subjects with a buddy of mine AM: who's an attorney, Steven.

01:00:25.730 - 01:00:44.500

AM: And Jesse talks about, from her perspective, her age group and always AM: trying to recruit people younger to come in and talk or different backgrounds to talk. AM: So that's kind of my legacy and so this kind of—your interview just fits into AM: that. It's somebody else taping me, somebody else asking me questions.

01:00:45.040 - 01:00:58.300

AM: So that's one aspect of it. AM: The other one is mentoring people. AM: There's a lot of kids here, your age group that are with H-1b visa or AM: F-1 visas or whatever that don't have families or don't have someplace to turn to.

01:00:58.330 - 01:01:13.330

AM: So we keep the house open for anybody that, you know, needs a AM: guide, even if it's just for one time, not ongoing. AM: So that's the other topic that I do. AM: The other thing is, I call myself a street preacher to the philosophies that

01:01:13.330 - 01:01:30.700

AM: I have, I think are very positive and easy to work with. AM: So I attend a lot of meetings and I talk, you know, AM: so money-wise, with my retirement AM: pensions from the Air Force, the railroad that I worked, which we didn't really talk

01:01:30.700 - 01:01:46.570

AM: about, but I was on the railroad for a couple of years, and IBM and a few other AM: places provide me to where I'm financially worry-free, and AM: I live very frugally and minimally, so that allows AM: me a lot of freedom.

01:01:46.870 - 01:02:04.600

AM: Not wanting, not having—not to go too deep, but not having the desire to AM: drive a Mercedes or live in, you know, expensive home AM: area or drive an expensive car frees me up. AM: Jesse and I just came from a 5000 mile trip where I took her through the East

01:02:04.600 - 01:02:17.470

AM: coast and met a lot of my friends who were in the military with me, and she got to see AM: my extended family, so to speak. AM: And none of these people are biologically related to me, but they, you know, we stayed AM: at their houses, we stayed with them.

01:02:18.040 - 01:02:36.670

AM: And it was just like going home to family that we chose each other, right. AM: So that's the other part is when I go to churches and talk to people informally or AM: synagogues or whatever, I'm trying to let them see that, you know, you AM: don't have to worry about the afterlife rewards or whatever.

01:02:37.360 - 01:02:50.680

AM: You just need to be rewarded now with experience. AM: Like to me, to see Marjorie after six years, I haven't seen her in six years. AM: It was phenomenal. AM: You know, she's my sister and they were all like, what this white boy doing over here

01:02:50.680 - 01:03:02.050

AM: with this Hispanic girl at a black church? AM: Like, he's my brother. AM: Just her saying that was phenomenal. AM: So that's my job basically is the next ten, 15 years or however long

01:03:02.050 - 01:03:16.600

AM: that I live is to get that message out to people and say, hey, you know, AM: it is simple. It is that simple. SL: Yeah. That's beautiful. SL: I think obviously I had a million questions for you, but

01:03:17.050 - 01:03:31.160

SL: after this whole dialogue, I think I really am SL: satisfied with a lot of things that you've shared. SL: And I don't think I have any specific questions right now that I want to open up, SL: but is there any-.

01:03:31.180 - 01:03:47.920

AM: I have one. [SL: Yeah.] Yeah, I have one. AM: You know, because it's a culturally associated project, so to AM: speak. And one of the things I run into all the time is when I say I'm AM: Asian, people kind of look at me because Asian means Chinese to most people right

01:03:47.920 - 01:04:04.520

AM: ? And how would you reconcile me into your project to AM: say he's Asian? SL: I think you define yourself and I think you believe-I SL: think I believe you said you were multi-ethnic.

01:04:06.320 - 01:04:24.500

SL: And I don't think it's up to me or anybody else to determine that identity for SL: you. And maybe by blood or maybe by choice, you do SL: align with some Asian values, or you see yourself connected to the Asian community SL: somehow. And I think that's more than enough to be a part of this archive.

01:04:25.600 - 01:04:40.620

AM: Okay, cool. I appreciate that because, yeah, blood-wise, you know, genetic-wise, I am AM: Asian, even though Middle East is considered African by some, it's still Asia where my AM: mother's side and my father's side, I'm definitely Asian with Southeast Asian and AM: Chinese DNA in it.

01:04:40.620 - 01:04:56.830

AM: So even though I don't put it on paper as such, you know, I'm hoping in the AM: archives that someday my granddaughters will go looking for somebody with their last name AM: and they see me talking. AM: I think that's my goal and hopefully if I impart anything to anybody else

01:04:56.830 - 01:05:14.380

AM: listening in or looking at and say, hey, who the heck is this guy? AM: But yeah, I–I subscribe to Daoism probably as the the guiding light. AM: And then Chi(?)-I don't know when you–when you guys interviewed him, he has a very AM: simple thing that he says is like one, two, three.

01:05:16.210 - 01:05:34.660

AM: He says Daoism is about self and improving self. AM: Confucianism is about the community and helping the community, and Buddhism comes AM: in and puts in some philosophies into everyday AM: living. So that's—that to me, makes me more Asian than anybody b

01:05:34.660 - 01:05:50.230

AM: ecause I—and when you put in, you know, having been brought up by a AM: Buddhist monk living next to a pagoda in Burma for nine years of my life. AM: So it's like, okay, if I have to geographically define who I am or where my AM: values are, they're Asian.

01:05:50.530 - 01:06:09.130

AM: [SL: Yeah.] And Jesse will tell you that she–she gets bugged because I become an Asian AM: parent and push her to do good in school, whereas the Hispanic people don't do that. AM: So that was a big change for her to see your parents sitting there, push push push. AM: Hey degree time, break time, study time.

01:06:09.610 - 01:06:25.480

SL: Yeah, I think, just—like our archive has a spectrum of different SL: people. We have people who are very ingrained in Asian culture in their SL: specific ethnicities, and they subscribe strongly to their traditions and SL: heritage and so forth.

01:06:25.480 - 01:06:39.130

SL: And I think there are people who don't adhere so strictly, people who are a lot— SL: whose identities aren't so dependent upon their ethnicity. SL: I believe everyone has a place in this archive, and I believe you have a place in SL: here as well.

01:06:39.130 - 01:06:54.070

AM: So, okay, so the last question is where will this archive be AM: available? Was it through the Rice University or a different-the society. SL: It is under the Rice University I believe. SL: But it's–it's–its own entity.

01:06:54.070 - 01:07:07.540

SL: So it has its own website and publicly available interviews and transcripts. SL: And I'm happy to send that in a follow up email for you if you're interested in kind of SL: exploring. AM: Yeah, that'd be great so I can pass it on and post it on on

01:07:07.540 - 01:07:15.100

AM: my website. SL: Yeah, yeah. Of course. SL: I guess then just— AM: Okay, Samuel. Yeah. Go ahead.

01:07:15.430 - 01:07:27.490

SL: I just have a last question I'm always supposed to ask every interviewee. SL: [AM: Sure.] If there's anything in this interview that you would have wanted to SL: cover, but we haven't touched upon, is there anything now or are you happy just kind of SL: wrapping up?

01:07:29.210 - 01:07:44.960

AM: No, you did great. AM: And you allowed me to say some things that were tangential to do that. AM: And like I said, like my CV, I've omitted a lot of different things. AM: But I think I got the message out that I wanted to get out so I thank you for being

01:07:44.960 - 01:08:02.120

AM: patient, to let me finish and do that at your young age and your discipline AM: of neurobiology. That speaks highly of you. AM: And hopefully someday I can meet you for coffee or something at the Rice AM: University, because we're at there quite a bit and different lectures at the Commons.

01:08:02.120 - 01:08:14.990

AM: I guess it's I call it the Commons, but the coffee shop there. SL: Right. Yeah, of course, I'd love that. SL: Actually, if it's okay, I'll end the recording right here, but I won't–[AM: SL: Okay.] I won't quit the Zoom or anything.