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This is type 20 slide two. The interviewee today is uh Doctor Trenton H. We're in his office time is 930. Date is August 20th, 1969. Is there any V number? 50 9, 50,000? Hi, Doctor Juan. Uh just to test this microphone placement. Could you just give

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me say your name and address? And let's see how this uh goes over this Trenton Juan five cents per we're not getting much registration on the needle there. Let me play this back and see what happens. Well, uh just as a uh brief introduction to reiterate

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what uh for the record, some of the things we've been talking about, Doctor W uh I would be interested in uh in your comments about what thoughts went through your mind when you first learned, for instance, that rice would need a new president. Uh the particular

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position that I find myself in being very closely allied with uh with colleges, with undergraduate work uh determined pretty much what I thought about everything. Um And uh because uh Fitzer had been doing uh such a tremendous job in trying to help us develop student government

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uh helping us develop college courses, helping doing everything we could to uh in some way or another introduce uh experimentation, flexibility of the undergraduate curriculum. Uh I felt that uh it was a terrible loss when, when you left. Uh And the uh um my initial thought

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was, well, you know, I hope when they get someone, they get someone is already alert to the necessity for uh being responsive, the changing to the climate, being positive. Uh you know, this magic word relevance and, and all of this and uh uh felt that it

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would be a terrible, like we had to go back and uh pick up a president and somehow or another had to be trained or because there was trained uh as far as the uh the aspirations for rice go. Uh When I came, uh I came on

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the understanding that we would be primarily emphasizing undergraduate work. II I have no uh real uh disagreement with the idea of graduate work, but I feel it's interference is the important so that uh um in thinking about what we would want, you know, there are many

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roads to excellence and not all the roads to excellence are through established graduate programs and roads to excellence through good undergraduate work. And this is what I wanted. I felt that if we got a president who uh uh was interested in undergraduate work as something other

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than just plain preparation for graduate school, I was in good shape. I'd be interested in hearing more of your comments about uh um a root. Excellent to an excellent uh or a top notch undergraduate uh curriculum. Could you, could you elaborate on that for me? Uh

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My uh let's see how to put it. I think we get here at Rice uh kids who already have enough information uh to do them the rest of their lives just in terms of, of the accumulation of sheer fats. Uh they've not assimilated as well. Uh

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It, it's assimilated in, in a form that enables them to answer questions, but they have no kind of uh a mass, no kind of, of uh overall view of the nature of knowledge and how you uh I feel that uh what the university can do is

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to add a bit uh to this mass of information we have, but primarily organized itself in such a way as to enable them to find themselves within all this knowledge. Um No how to do this. What are the techniques for doing this? I have no uh

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particular uh ax to drive. Uh There are innumerable ways of, of trying to achieve this. So all of these ways uh depend upon somehow or another. Helping students recognize that he is responsible for his knowledge. He is responsible for how it's used. He's responsible for what

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he remembers and uh he's responsible for whom he chooses to be the authorities in almost any uh any item of information. Uh one gets, one can find uh different possible interpretations on it. Uh He will choose one authority to quote for this possible interpretation. Uh You've

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got to arrange it in such a way that he recognizes that he is the one who chooses his own authority to quote. Uh So, so that the reason I hold no brief for any particular form is, I don't think there's any particular form that will encourage

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students to take responsibility for their own learning. But the aim should be, what would it be a correct interpretation of what you're saying to, uh, that you're interested in a, uh, a, a fuller and better balanced liberal arts education rather than looking at life as a,

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uh, as four years of prep profession grooming. Uh, that's it, you know, and this is, of course, uh, what I thought when I thought of the precedence Fitzer was himself when he first came, um, uh very clearly oriented toward uh excellent prep profession training. And, uh

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I think when he left, uh, he was willing to grant that the best prep professional training as an African student did for himself rather than the university. It was, it was on that basis that he was, uh, was very supportive of the fumbling and stupid efforts

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we're making in the colleges to have these students somehow or another take hold of, of their own education. They're very supportive because you, um, was willing to grant that prep profession education in so far as it is just technically done is in the, do you find

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much support for this idea or in educational circles at university level? These things? Uh, II, I hope it. But, yeah, because it's, uh, uh, yeah, that's hard to answer. Uh, I, I, I'll, I'll answer it by giving a, uh, an anecdote of something that happened the

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very first year I was here too many years ago to count the number. Uh Carol Camden English apartment, moved out in Bel Air and uh uh he was giving me a ride home one day and we didn't know each other at all. Well, uh and we

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were sparring with each other, you know, just trying to find out uh you know, how I help you trying to find some grounds in which we could agree. Well, we found the grounds in which we could agree. We were both opposed to molly coddling and spoon

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feeding students, you know, and, and uh great joy, you know, your arms are each other, you know, very pleased. We went on a little further discussing why we were opposed to spoon feeding uh students. And it developed that we meant entirely different things by spoon feed,

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uh by spoon feeding. Uh He met allowing the students to be in the zone by spoon feeding. Im Me having weekly quizzes to be sure that they uh learn their information. Now, so when, when you ask, is there much support for this, I would say, well,

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at a superficial level, everybody says yes. Uh we all want the student to be responsible for his own learning. Uh But then if you wanna know at a deeper level, how are you going to do it? Uh I think we may split that is, I think

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that uh some people may say that the way in which you make responsible people are responsible for their learning is to make darn sure they have pop quizzes every time they come to class, they keep up with the work and uh I stay right on them

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to make them responsible. Uh My argument is that uh this is the same kind of thing that we have chosen our students for that to see that they accumulate fats is not to make them responsible for their knowledge. And so at a very deep level, I

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don't know how much support uh I know in the uh in the college courses, we have uh many people uh opposed to them uh at Jones, uh I've tried to set it up so that the Jones courses are student taught, faculty member must sponsor it, but

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uh he does not teach it. He does not organize it. He was not uh in any way full charge theoretically. Now, some of the uh faculty associates who have sponsored the courses find they cannot operate and they find that they are made so tremendously uncomfortable uh

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by giving this responsibility to students that they, they continue to interfere, they continually, they have an idea of what an ideal course is. And rather than allow the students to stumble through and develop their own course without meaning to, they start interfering to push things in

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the direction they're in, in the course. Uh, one or two faculty members, um, uh, have talked with me about, uh, their, their feelings about it, uh, what, what their courses were like. And some of them found that they had a tremendous experience. They've learned a lot.

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They found that, that their view of what a course should be like, uh is too narrow a view. And uh they're looking forward now to this next year's course because they'll, they'll get this tremendous expansion of sensibility. But some of them are just uh totally upset

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by it. No. Uh this is one of the reasons I hold no brief for any particular way, but I do argue very strongly kind of thing that we're accustomed to doing that is uh the usual hourly quizzes and, and all of this uh continues the student

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on in his view of knowledge is something he must gather to report back to someone else. Not he himself very well said you used the phrase a moment ago that a little clear in my mind. Uh You, you said that a student during his four years

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of college to develop an app mass, what does that mean? Uh through a line room. Oh, I, I think that the, uh, um, I shouldn't have used that term, uh, too technically tied to a, to a certain view of thing. I think what I'm, what I'm

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trying to say is to, uh, to indicate that people learn, draw in assimilate information from a very personal point of view and the, uh, sorts of things that they notice the sorts of things they remember, the sorts of things, they don't notice the sorts of things

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they disregard the kinds of ways in which uh they seek knowledge, the kinds of ways in which they use knowledge. All of these uh are best understood as being seen from a particular point of view, a personal point of view. And at that point of view

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that I was referring to per second, put the uh uh on the right track to say that this uh well, you also use another phrase to integrate uh their, their total life experiences up to that point in order to be responsible for um, their own growth

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and development. Right? Is it like that? Yeah, I see a of a, of an undergraduate education. Yes, because what they're going to be doing is they're going to, so one of the best students that, well, one of the students who graduated in math, whom the uh

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most of the people in the math department will agree was one of the better students, uh used to talk about it. Law of probability. And he would say such things as the, uh, uh, disarmament races or armament races, uh, look as though they obey certain laws

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of probability. Now, uh, each time you'd say that I'd, I'd question, you know, uh, they lost probability and you'd say, well, you know what I mean? Uh, but it can be described very well with a certain model of probability. I say, well, you know, as long

00:16:29.349 - 00:16:44.710

as you say that, that the behavior that you're talking about can somehow or another well be fitted in and described quantitatively under some law of probability. Then you're being quite precise in what you're saying. But as soon as you say, it obeys the laws of probability.

00:16:44.929 - 00:17:00.349

It makes it appear as though somehow. I, yeah. And you say, well, everybody knows, I mean, I say, well, be sure that the person who you're talking to. So he said, OK, and then he'd go on talking a few minutes later and pray the laws as

00:17:00.419 - 00:17:29.709

possible. Uh No. Uh but he's staying there is that it is not something he is doing to these data that makes them available to certain kinds of probability descriptions. But there they are outside, completely independent of anything. Anybody does, they obey the law. No, I'm not

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about to argue with him, but he should not believe that. But if he wants to think there are laws of probability and, and defense all laws of probability, I want him to know it and I want him to argue, but there are these laws of external

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to any one of us somehow floating around in design and, and they, they guide it. I want them to know these are, I don't want them to have both of the, you got both sides of, you're never going to be able to somehow or another to

00:18:07.000 - 00:18:29.160

make him respond. Because as soon as you question him in the log, you say, well, I don't mean it and he goes back, that's the kind of thing so that he cannot, he cannot say that uh these are independent of my point of view. I have

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to say these things are my plan just as I tried to start out by saying, because I was interested undergraduate education, all of the things that I'm about to say powerful my point and I can't make it, make it. Yeah, that's uh yes, but I take

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it very well. Well, from, from this point of view, how did you react when you uh learned that the board made a decision? How did that news come to you? First of all, uh Street Fulton and I were walking and I guess it was Doug Price

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William were walking over to uh Cohen House and Jim Kane was coming back and uh we were uh at that time, uh joking among ourselves, I think we've heard that the decision has been made. Uh And we were joking among ourselves as to whether it was

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Connolly or Johnson. Um And uh if you walk across the street, but it was uh you there. And I, and we thought about it as uh comparable to Kanye Johnson. I thought he was joking. Uh, and I had a feeling of dismay because I feel that

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Bill has the very point of view of what undergraduate education that was very divergent from mine. And I think he and, uh, and I could have had that same conversation. I spoke about having a car for whatever reason. You know, we're opposed to both of us

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are on what we meant. Uh Also had been a uh uh was, was uh one of the senior masters in many colleges time that I seen him, um, have a neophyte master in song. And, uh yeah, very different idea about how to run car that I

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did that, but he wants to run it and I want to develop good. Uh We never clashed and, and I think we're, we're pretty good friends, you know, like c and I were the opposite sides of, um, uh, but I think we like each other, but

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I have a feeling that, that uh this, uh that I've spoken of, but the picture seem to learn, I thought, oh my God, we've gotta go through the scan. I don't know if to do it. Uh this one. And so it was, it was a dismay

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again, only in terms of kind things uh, that I keep hoping. Uh, and I immediately said the street, oh, my God. I got to quit before I get to fight. And he said, no, I, uh, he's been, he's, he's a closer friend of, uh, Phil than

00:21:47.319 - 00:22:11.719

I was and he said no, I, I've been, he's up with Phil and he's, he's changed tremendously, uh, during the period and, and since I've seen how fit changed at present, uh, the Bill could not also. Um Did you elaborate on that at all? Uh No,

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no, because we, uh we went, uh we, we were, we were going on to, to lunch and we got over there and it was just a big confusion, you know, with everybody coming from their own a perceptiveness. And uh so we, we never went on um

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later sweet and I have talked a lot, a lot about it and uh um we have tremendous respect for uh for pill and, and such of things that uh that he felt, uh they'll have strength for where uh uh some view of, of humanity and their

00:23:06.650 - 00:23:28.109

place in the university. Uh I agreed that Dale had some few of the men in the place that I felt that what he was trying to do is to uh uh make a pseudoscience out of the humanity. And uh so we, we never quite agreed on

00:23:28.119 - 00:23:57.880

on whether Bill would have been good or not. Uh The uh kind of things that street would tell me with, uh, I would say, yeah. But, uh, and they were mostly, uh, Bill, uh, had himself, um, gotten a feeling that there were many ways x rather

00:23:57.890 - 00:24:20.709

than your way. That's about the gist of what he was trying to say that he was trying to say that, uh, the bill has learned to look. Well, many a more. Did you have the impression, uh, at the time that, uh, Doctor Colton and, and Doctor

00:24:20.719 - 00:24:45.770

Matheson had kept in fairly close contact, uh, with, uh, uh, so that Doctor Poulton would be, uh, uh, pretty close to, uh, uh, method and growth and development. The last, uh, three years you've been, no, not that close, just, uh occasional tangential things. But because, uh,

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because they were such good friends, you know, they, they'd worked together as masters for some 10 or 11 years. See each other for my entire fight out things, uh, because they were very close when they, when they did meet, uh, they would talk about, about things

00:25:04.150 - 00:25:28.939

that were of interest to them on, on the occasional, uh, but very intimate immediately. So this was at, uh, lunch on Friday, really? Going over to lunch or going over to lunch on Friday when you got over there, what the, what was going on. Uh, but

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actually it just blew me. The word was pretty well out. Yeah. In fact, I imagine we were probably one of the last people on campus to know, uh that everyone seemed to have known about it. Uh But you never know whether, whether their way of uh

00:25:50.219 - 00:26:05.989

presenting the information uh, was designed to indicate they were in the know or whether they really were in the, no, I have no idea. But many of them, we never told anyone and they all knew. Now when I say a blo infusion, what, what I mean,

00:26:06.000 - 00:26:28.739

there was that, uh, well, what I like to do is to, uh in some way or another you're doing what I usually do. Yeah, and revealing nothing of yourself and finding out. And that's, that's the way I go here, uh try to do it. And uh

00:26:31.030 - 00:26:51.439

over there there was just there, each person, everybody was talking, nobody was listening and it was just impossible for me to follow through. And so I just, you know, I just kind of put on a filter and, and stop this and I, I just don't remember

00:26:53.849 - 00:27:34.099

what did you do after lunch? Then I, and students, we talked, thank you for doing that college, of course. And uh they asked my opinion of that except, ok, would not have selected him. I thought that the college is going to have some more kind of

00:27:34.189 - 00:28:07.939

like with yourself, very deeply connected with the college system and whether he was committed in the same way we were. But very, uh in fact, I was withdrawn from the uh from the whole color balloon until we got away. Did anyone bring around to take? Uh,

00:28:08.790 - 00:28:35.739

no, no, I didn't get that. I don't think I would have signed it. Uh, not, not because of the particular, uh, particular issue involved but, uh, I'll give you my, again point of view. Uh, I, different point of view that I've been trying to describe about

00:28:35.750 - 00:28:57.030

what I think about education. Uh, I would sign a petition that was designed somehow or another to get people to talk about why they think what they think. But I would not sign a petition trying to get them to think a certain way. So I just

00:28:57.040 - 00:29:19.359

don't sign petitions. You know, I, uh, uh, that is the ones in Vietnam and all these. Whereas I, I feel just as strongly about Vietnam and the people who are signing them. I can't, I can't sign those petitions because they're trying, they're more aggressive and trying

00:29:19.369 - 00:29:31.229

to present a point of view that I can be. So I, I wouldn't have signed it even if it'd come around when you went to the meeting. Did, uh, you see it at that time or did you not hear that? It was read on the floor?

00:29:31.239 - 00:29:50.010

I had not heard of it. It was read before, uh, uh, I was sitting, uh, uh, with the doc or I, I forget now who is, who is friends right around and I knew it was in my car where they were sitting. I know and I

00:29:50.020 - 00:30:22.869

think it was from one of them that I heard that there was tissue, he was sitting around uh Chris Williams and the Street Colton. I'd be interested in hearing of your impressions of, of the meeting. Uh I understand that at one point there was quite uh

00:30:23.109 - 00:30:50.430

an increase in the emotional level of uh so yeah, uh you know, one of the things I like to do just for fun uh is to look for single variable approaches, you know. Yes. And uh and, and I think I like to do it uh more

00:30:50.439 - 00:31:19.339

to uh uh uh to point out the joyful stupidity of, of simplifying approaches. Uh But in this particular instance, I have a feeling that if uh Dean Richter had not gotten up and said what he said and he was terribly, terribly uh slavish matter, um The

00:31:19.349 - 00:31:37.030

split would not have been as emotional. Do you know if you know what he said or how he said it? I haven't talked with him and uh this meeting was not recorded so I haven't heard it but uh I uh what you would describe it because

00:31:37.239 - 00:32:19.369

I uh I won't try to paraphrase it. I'll, I'll, I'll give my interpretation of it. Uh He said we should thank the board of trustees for their benevolence, beneficent and can use the straight man. It was said in a tremendously emotional, trembling, puncture his voice and

00:32:19.380 - 00:32:47.619

this was where the emotion um this was when the first, I'll see the, that count for his emotion at the time. I don't really, you know, I'd like to talk with you about it but I'm not about to. Uh, I, I, I don't think there's any

00:32:47.630 - 00:33:16.510

simple, uh, yeah, a single variable approach. Something I like to introduce. I don't like to use. I don't really know. Uh, uh, it's been his life. Rice has been his life, uh, essentially, uh come here from a small town and then ever since OK, the, uh,

00:33:21.489 - 00:33:38.939

I don't remember how he and Bill got along, you know, I know, but I, I don't think they were, I don't think they were close. Uh So I don't think he would necessarily be able to do what immediately preceded his talk. Uh This is one of

00:33:38.949 - 00:34:09.370

the things that I'm mad at myself for, uh, what I was doing was trying like mad uh to see what, uh now, what's his name? The uh member of the board of trustees either a, uh, there was the guy Allen. Uh I was trying to watch

00:34:09.379 - 00:34:40.719

him, uh, and, uh, and see what he was doing and I was really paying no attention what was going on and it was an interesting thing to watch him, uh, that, uh uh he was holding himself in, uh, that, that his, uh, his presentation had been

00:34:40.729 - 00:35:06.120

made uh in, in a voice that could only be interpreted as uh one controlled, trying to be reasonable under conditions in which he was quite certain that, uh, the only thing to do was to, uh, lay down the law and he was trying hard to lay

00:35:06.129 - 00:35:22.370

down the law, you know, the way you do with kids, uh, you try somehow or another, you know, that what you're saying is this is the way things have got to be, but you don't wanna say directly things are, this is the way things that could

00:35:22.379 - 00:35:38.159

be. So, what you try to do is to describe the situation in such a way that the listener will know. Well, the situation being what it is, this is the only possible thing we could do. And this is what he was trying to do somehow or

00:35:38.169 - 00:36:08.750

another. Say, look, uh don't, don't uh don't be foolish, but he didn't want to say, look, don't be foolish this terribly controlled place, spoken from way, way back, uh uh patient. Um No, you know, underneath tremendous charge of ST and I wanted to watch to see

00:36:08.760 - 00:36:28.360

what he did come on and uh he would try to be immobile, he would try to be impassive. Uh But uh you, you get it this way and then leg it starts going. Right. Well, anyway, I, I missed all of the things that led up to

00:36:28.379 - 00:36:46.760

uh to, I, I had no idea what uh who had spoken before. Uh I have a feeling it was John Claude. But then that's because I have a feeling John Claude is always speaking of course. So I really don't know what kind of impression uh did

00:36:46.770 - 00:37:26.229

Ellen uh talk make on the fact that uh those who felt there are many people who felt that the uh this uh what do you call it uh faculty committee, whatever the name of it is uh had been felt in remission and uh had not

00:37:26.889 - 00:38:02.219

uh have not pressed, have not uh done everything they could to uh to make faculty. No. Uh they felt that uh they felt with Alan was doing a good job presenting uh the facts of the case under conditions in which the uh uh faculty had not

00:38:02.229 - 00:38:26.159

taken their responsibilities seriously. Uh There's some who uh had the feeling that, that uh um what uh Alan was doing was the usual thing of interference with the board and no, no matter what he said or how he said it, uh it would have been the

00:38:26.169 - 00:38:46.600

same kind of thing. Uh There's some who had the feeling that, uh you know, they, they didn't know uh too much of what was going on. Uh And they had the feeling that uh well, uh how come we weren't uh told that that uh we were

00:38:46.610 - 00:39:05.840

supposed to be looking for a local man. Uh Nobody had told us this was one of the criteria, uh you know, but let's think this over. Uh uh and they uh they had a feeling that uh what Alan was doing was uh uh revealing the board's

00:39:05.850 - 00:39:20.899

view about the uh about the university for the first time, you know, a little resentful that everything at the back. So I'm trying to say that again, given, given the point of view from which they're operating, there is many different, there are many different kinds of

00:39:20.909 - 00:39:50.580

responses. Uh I, I would think that uh judging by the votes, uh uh most of them had the feeling that, that, uh, Alan's presentation was self serving in getting the decision accepted or, uh, or uh, uh, self serving in the sense that uh, what he was

00:39:50.590 - 00:40:14.860

doing was trying to. Now, after the fact, account for a, an arrogant decision that had been made because they seem to reject his, uh, is counting things on, on the basis of the hope who would be some of the, uh, individuals who, um, had the idea,

00:40:15.060 - 00:40:39.820

uh, at this point in the meeting that, uh, perhaps the faculty advisory committee had, uh, not been as aggressive or as pretty as it should have been. I think John Clark had that feeling. Uh, is he, you've now again, got to know one of my points

00:40:39.830 - 00:40:59.439

of view. I'm a, uh, I'm kind of a clinician and, uh, one of the things I, I trained myself very early to do is never tell names and stories at the same time because I get an awful lot of confidential material and I, I want to

00:40:59.449 - 00:41:17.679

use the confidential material as, as an exemplification of something larger. So what I do is I divorce uh as quickly as I can, uh something from the person who said it. And uh and you know, I, I do this with, with my students that, that I

00:41:17.689 - 00:41:37.100

can uh I can honestly say before the dean asks me. Well, I don't remember and, and I really need it. Uh some of the kinds of things that, that uh are not confidential. I think that, that I wanna do to remember to illustrate a particular person.

00:41:37.110 - 00:41:54.219

Like I want to illustrate the street, I'll remember what street says and, and, and, and tie them together, but generally, I don't tie the person in the story together. So when I'm saying this, uh I'm saying it uh very much on the basis of a kind

00:41:54.229 - 00:42:08.820

of a reconstruction rather than the basis of any kind of knowledge. Am I making this? Yes. Uh One, my reason for asking is, is that uh a one of view I haven't encountered before? And uh I, I would like to talk with uh those persons. Do

00:42:08.830 - 00:42:38.899

you think they might not come up? Uh Let me think here. I think. No clot. I'm not sure. I know, I've heard it. I, I know I've heard it but I mean, I, I just, you know, I've heard it afterwards. Uh um but, you know, they're,

00:42:39.729 - 00:43:11.439

I just don't remember. Uh I know there were some, I, I know there were, I may run across them later. We haven't done all the masters uh yet. Uh I'm trying to remember who somebody did ask. Uh some questions of Franz during the meeting. And uh

00:43:21.719 - 00:44:07.659

II I just don't remember, but you might find out by uh Franz was questioned during me and uh you might find out in question. No, that might come. What else stands out in your mind uh At this meeting? Uh two things, uh uh one name, tremendous

00:44:07.669 - 00:44:49.639

uh ST of sympathy for pro OK, as the meeting went on gradually seem to shrink uh when he was through, uh you me Aso it pulled it in of itself coll um And uh this is without regard to whatever physician is operating from. And I think

00:44:49.669 - 00:45:33.699

it was just a tremendous physical training. The other thing was that uh um a tremendous feeling of alienation and separation from those people who could do it, tremendous feeling of shame that in a uh back this kind of action could go on the ways in which

00:45:33.709 - 00:46:16.959

we were uh trying to present ourselves as faculty members to our students, guardian rationality and all of this. How could we ever set ourselves as an example somehow or another trying to get them? Why the way we have? Perfect. Does it mean that uh you have

00:46:18.290 - 00:46:52.489

permanently change any of your uh friendship patterns as a result of this uh four day episode or no? Uh No, I think they, uh, um, the ones with whom I been friends who felt ill would be good. Uh We talked about in vague, uh, come to

00:46:52.500 - 00:47:27.560

the conclusion that, uh, say, for example, dreaming, uh, but after, uh, the meeting, so that bill would have no matter how, you know, he, he price himself, he could doctor them. It would have been unfair to him to ask him to come to the condition. Ok.

00:47:29.179 - 00:47:45.399

So you said that, uh you felt a sense of alienation from those who uh hitched and move. There were these people, uh with whom you've had relatively little contact before you. Uh No, and, and I didn't mean for those you can do it. I meant for

00:47:45.409 - 00:48:11.870

the whole issue because you see, I, I feel that, that, that for, for it to have gotten in the position where people felt able to do, we already moved from any kind, a rational decision. That is, I, I think that, that uh uh uh when uh

00:48:12.169 - 00:48:34.469

when Richter spoke, uh we'd already moved out of any kind of condition that I would like to see the faculty. So, so that it wasn't, it wasn't that, that I, uh, it wasn't felt alienated from the nose, the bruise, but from the whole bloody issue that,

00:48:34.479 - 00:48:59.830

that this was, you know, this was now no longer of any kind of, uh, exactly me that I want to do. No, not, not, not just the case. OK. Let me that's what I think so. I, I didn't feel, you know, I don't, I don't really

00:48:59.840 - 00:49:19.550

know. I guess, uh, I remember Alan was sitting, Alan Gray was sitting behind some person behind. I knew it because he asked a, a tremendous group. Um, you know, I thought, well, gee, you know, what kind of a set up is this where, where this young

00:49:19.560 - 00:49:43.540

guy, it made a profession of treating highly emotional literature in a rational way. It drags you into this sort of a thing. What kind of a setup is this? What's going on here? It was that, that, that, so uh what I'll be interpreting you correctly to

00:49:43.550 - 00:50:05.100

say that you're getting paid for the situation was on a collective basis rather than a personal. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh Look, I, I know Alan, uh I, I know, you know, he's the uh oh, he prides himself on his being able to think incisively and rationally

00:50:06.649 - 00:50:22.989

and priced himself on it. And here he was uh brought to this, what, what, what kind of a situation with, with, with uh C A and that was the first. So it wasn't, it wasn't uh you know, the, the impolite people. I don't mean that at

00:50:23.000 - 00:50:42.590

all, but the whole thing just deteriorated, generated, it was no longer in any way, any kind of thing that uh uh you know, that I would wanna tell my son we behaved like, and I was identified before the whole pregnant inquiry, stop that. So is there,

00:50:42.600 - 00:51:18.389

is there a combination, this is what we got chronic, we just uh we folded, correct? And they stood up there when the motion was made at the meeting to um to read the petition and then uh read the names uh of the, of the sinus. What

00:51:18.399 - 00:51:36.870

uh how do you react to uh to that, that you just taking the note, the name of uh of the sinus spoke. And I said, already had some kind of uh indication that there was a and uh and with my feeling about the conditions, uh mine

00:51:37.800 - 00:52:08.080

as well, uh my feeling about asking him to uh uh to read the name, uh was that at one, at the same time, it was a legitimate question and a threat. Uh You got, you got, uh he was legitimate uh because this was what, uh you

00:52:08.090 - 00:52:24.209

know, this was public that they've signed it and, and uh, and there were, there was no, there's no point in, in, in keeping it, you know, I mean, by, by signing it, they asked, they could stand up and uh all right. So that was legitimate. Uh

00:52:24.560 - 00:52:40.889

But that by asking that they be read, uh they, they were somehow, I know they were trying to say, OK, you said I'm going to stand up and be counted now, stand up and be counted. And I think the intent was also to, to find out,

00:52:41.129 - 00:52:56.600

uh it's probably just a bunch of, of uh, no good n uh and uh if, if we know who has signed it, those of you who have not signed it and have not heard of it will listen and you will see if these people have signed

00:52:56.610 - 00:53:16.389

it, they are a function of goodness. Anyway, so, so that the kind am I making? But when you heard the names then did, uh what, what impression did that make? I think the only one, whose name I was surprised about was the guy in the space

00:53:16.399 - 00:53:37.909

France. Uh I can't remember now. Desperate as it can. I mean, you don't mean, uh maybe it might have been desperate. It was somebody who I was surprised at because I felt he didn't enter, didn't care too much, you know, that he was uh off in

00:53:37.919 - 00:53:56.659

the wild blue yonder or, or getting ramps or some sort of thing. I was surprised to find that, uh that he was interested in what went on in the university. Now, I know the U was Destin. I, I just have to go through the bridal hand.

00:53:58.020 - 00:54:19.729

There was, but everyone else I know they've been interested. We've always been used to university and quite legitimate that they didn't do it, did it strike you as a bunch of no good mix or? No, I don't know who would be a good uh No, they

00:54:19.739 - 00:54:51.010

were, they were, they were, I think they were all and then with some kind of ST and I, I don't remember, you know, I can't remember really. No, they were, they were, you know, there, there are uh, um, some, no younger members of the faculty who

00:54:51.020 - 00:55:15.699

like new rooms to sweep clean. Um, and I don't remember it is representing them, but I remember it was doctor boring people who knew this guy who you were. And I was surprised that the thing was going on Was it, was it Kurt Michael? Ok. I

00:55:15.709 - 00:55:41.500

don't know somebody, I think they just have a surprise I get, but, you know, I thought it primarily getting wrapped on, do his own research and this other and it never occurred to me that you would care. I was pre there were, uh, three votes uh,

00:55:41.510 - 00:55:59.629

taken at that meeting. Uh How did you vote on these issues? I think the first was to split the motion one on part one and then went on part two. I voted against splitting the motion because I felt that that would present a false picture. Uh

00:56:00.850 - 00:56:30.899

That would make it appear as though it was not the mass and wasn't. And I think that would more, I think if, if they procedurally done that and come up with someone, uh, other than Bill, uh, this bus would not happen. Um Much of the material

00:56:30.909 - 00:56:51.310

went on to the Jones afterwards. Uh It's quite clear that it was a man. Um So I go in studying now what are the other ones in, uh, when they vote on the first part. The first part, uh, was, um, well, condemning it too strong a

00:56:51.320 - 00:57:21.449

word. I can't remember the word that was in it. But anyway, taking exception to the, to the procedure, the second was synthetically and board to reconsider. No. Ok. Have it was already lost? Yeah. Did, uh, what, what was your reaction to the way the vote turns

00:57:21.459 - 00:57:56.360

out on those two parts? I don't even remember how it turned out. Uh Well, I'll put it this way, uh that I was more now interested in. OK. Now we've done it, what's gonna happen? Uh And the uh kind of feeling of uh of anticipation that

00:57:56.370 - 00:58:26.129

now they were going to be uh tremendous uh number of things going on and it would be a fascinating thing to watch you, uh kind of joyful anticipation of battle, I guess. Let's put it. Uh But there is also underlying it, a uh uh feeling of

00:58:26.139 - 00:58:50.280

relief, uh which indicates that if the vote had gone the other way, I stop pretty bad. Uh Now, I don't know uh whether the feeling badly is not supposed to going the other way uh was primarily because uh if it had gone the other way and

00:58:50.290 - 00:59:18.080

then bill would have come or whether I would have lost the joint patient. I'm just not sure as a result of the results. Uh Were you um a at, at, at this point. What uh what did you think the uh the feasible goal of the faculty

00:59:18.090 - 01:00:08.540

might be in regard to this, this whole controversy? I'd like to distinguish between feasible as ideal. And uh I thought that ideally uh this is that uh could become the occasion for our, as a university sitting down and trying to decide. But we were after as

01:00:08.550 - 01:00:43.159

a university. Um Some time before I've been instrumental in, in getting a committee called Q starting. Uh and uh the way it had gotten started uh was that there would be uh and there was a student movement to reform the calendar uh to what's called a

01:00:43.169 - 01:01:09.159

jam plant. I don't remember all the details of and I meant that there would be an interim period during January. Uh Everybody was off an independent study. Uh and I was uh a member of the ad hoc committee. Salmon Changes. Cool. Yeah. And two of the

01:01:09.169 - 01:01:29.159

students uh were good friends of mine, uh Nancy Pets and Ron Bozeman. Uh and in this calendar committee, whenever they come up with a uh some kind of statement, I've not said, well, you know, why, what do you want it for? What this got to do,

01:01:29.229 - 01:01:45.889

what you're trying to do? Uh It looked to me like it was a plan of search of reason for being, you know, what's the reason for, for this plan? And each time they'd go away and they'd come back. So I wanted to, you know, you could

01:01:45.899 - 01:02:02.570

do it another way. But why, why, you know, why this particular plan and they, uh uh finally, you know, they, they try to answer it and then they finally said what the devil isn't in the graduation department. So they came in and uh we can talk

01:02:02.580 - 01:02:32.139

for a long time and kind of worked out the idea that, well, let's examine the purpose of undergraduate education. Obviously, you, no, I felt that that this could become now in saying feasible, I don't know, could become the occasion for our drawing. All members are free

01:02:32.770 - 01:02:52.209

university community into a discussion as to what are the goals in university. Uh It looked to me as though by their uh some of this is after the fact, some of this was uh something I formed when I was listening to Alan. And I, I don't

01:02:52.219 - 01:03:18.080

really know uh when these ideas came, but it seemed to me that uh that by their action, the board had symbolized uh the point of view that they were going to try to uh search for excellence again, primarily at an undergraduate level, primarily within the limited

01:03:18.090 - 01:03:37.840

scope. Uh No, I think there are ways of achieving excellence in that. I don't know what they'd be, but we could have discussed it. Uh And so this, I think was what I, you know, when I was talking about jot a patient, this was the kind

01:03:37.850 - 01:03:56.479

of thing that I was thinking uh I felt that, that uh you know, I'd like to talk, for example, with a, yeah, just sit down and talk this and, and talk to you and find out if you're trying to find out what I can click with

01:03:56.810 - 01:04:24.169

you, uh find out uh you know, what uh what are the ideas? Bye. Have they, have they in any way uh made explicit uh what these ideals are, are these things symbolically, is in the summer this sort of question and, and this would be an ideal

01:04:24.179 - 01:04:56.070

kind of thing that could happen. Now. Uh I don't think it could happen uh under the conditions in which uh we were then beginning to operate uh conditions with implications of bad faith and uh villain and, and, and this side of the thing and I would

01:04:56.080 - 01:05:27.419

have liked to have tried to redes describe the same events in, in such a way as to indicate that there are other possible interpretations and villains. Um No, the ideal feasible. I, I don't know what prevents it from being feasible. I think it's the, if we

01:05:27.429 - 01:06:04.429

get too many variables, right? No way. OK. Well, I think, and each person with a feeling of hurt during betrayal, the trustees feeling betrayed, faculty committee being the train all of these things. But I still think not only ideal but it, it, I guess if we

01:06:04.439 - 01:06:31.169

weren't people, it would be season one. That is that answer you answer you very Well, I, I was wondering if, um, uh, at the time, uh the meeting was concluded and the results of the vote were in, uh, did, did you consider it? Uh, you, you

01:06:31.179 - 01:06:58.300

told me what was uppermost in your mind? Did you consider that, uh, the faculty might be successful in getting the board to reverse the decision or getting ma needs to be done? Uh, I kind of accepted a foregone conclusion that he couldn't come. Uh, I, I

01:06:58.310 - 01:07:27.590

did it, I, I accept, accepted this on the basis of, uh, uh, a kind of a, uh, an unspoken knowledge, I guess, you know, an unformulated knowledge but things have gone so far that, uh, um, like whether the board back down or not built would recognize

01:07:27.600 - 01:07:50.370

you couldn't, couldn't operate because he's not dying. Yeah, I didn't know. How long did it take for this, this knowledge to move out of the unspoken to the spoken. But, uh, I think it was, it was quite clear he would have been coming into an impo

01:07:52.689 - 01:08:17.180

he was recognized and I, I think that was the sort of and so there was never, I guess in, in, in, uh, you know, the times over J and we also had some hassle, friend of mine and I'm not doing, no, I never had this but

01:08:26.450 - 01:09:13.439

was there anything else that, uh, happened that Friday night that was related to this incident? Do you c a general? Oh, nothing that would, uh, would, uh, qualify was also informally. And, uh, uh, I think the thing that impressed me, um, was, uh, how almost all

01:09:13.450 - 01:09:42.229

of us were acting like kids went out of school. Ok. A break in the routine. Yeah. Well, many of the students were acting from a basic bewilderment of what's going on. They were still doing it, uh, you know, like fire drills, you know? No, they're bewildered.

01:09:42.240 - 01:10:11.790

Is there really a fire? But that's minimal. That's basically, you know, we're out and routine is broken. We're talking to each other under conditions that we're not accustomed to and all positive. So, there was a, uh, he was very informal, uh, very, uh, all of the

01:10:11.799 - 01:10:36.549

ways in which we usually relate to each other were destroyed and we were relating to each other in ways we were not accustomed to. We were fighting out different things by each other but nothing, any kind of normal. Did you notice, um, uh, any pick the

01:10:36.560 - 01:11:02.750

effects that this had on the season relating to, uh, each other and, and to faculty in a little different way. Uh, and, uh, people still, students still talk with me about, uh, uh, about this with nostalgia. Um. Mhm. So, there's three or four, students who, who

01:11:02.759 - 01:11:29.649

look back on it, uh, with horror because they, uh, they were, uh, they were shocked that, uh, that the order we institute and suddenly exploded into the order thing and he wanted to return quickly to, uh, to order. Uh, there are one or two cool, uh,

01:11:30.240 - 01:12:10.990

remembered that, wanted him himself, read that. Uh, but the majority of them look back on it, period. Extreme closeness. I wonder how we lost it where we are, you know, summer romance. We look back on it. Uh, let's see. The next morning was the, uh, the,

01:12:11.080 - 01:12:32.080

uh, kicked in at the gym. Uh, did you attend that? What stands out in your mind at that meeting? Uh How the uh sorts of things I, you know, I was saying, I don't remember when these ideas came of thinking of this as an ideal opportunity

01:12:32.089 - 01:12:56.680

to, to begin to uh to work together in defining what we meant by a university. But uh but some of the things that were being said, uh we're making this ideal impossible. So I must have had it at that time. Uh uh I felt although I

01:12:56.689 - 01:13:30.080

don't remember in detail what was said, I have a feeling Clark Reed's position that made it less possible for us to work together. Uh a tremendous feeling of admiration for the students or the way in which the they were some. Uh uh I can't remember who

01:13:30.089 - 01:13:58.529

it was. Well. Um But sometime when I was first here, one of the older faculty members said that we faculty members have no right to in any way or feel pride in anything our students do because they are so far superior to us that, uh, anything

01:13:58.540 - 01:14:31.189

we can do can't spoil them. And I had the feeling then that the students came through much better, uh, in their being really not to push for their own down and, uh, rather than push for, uh, or open discussion. Oh, now what was Clark? And I

01:14:31.200 - 01:15:06.810

have to change on his notion or that feeling that if this sort of thing goes on we'll never get together. Uh huh. I uh have not, I've gone dressed like this and uh I had a momentary feeling of regret that I would not be able to

01:15:06.819 - 01:15:35.180

march with. I have been asked and I know, uh but then also a uh a feeling that well, in a way, I'm, I'm, I'm glad uh because marching, uh again, we'll uh do the kinds of things that uh will make it more difficult for me later

01:15:35.189 - 01:16:05.089

to talk with people to make persuasion. So that makes feelings, right? Would have liked to have taken part uh eat something else well, extremely well handled. Yes. Yes. A couple of the other speakers uh at that meeting were um Jack Ward and Jim Kanita. Do you

01:16:05.100 - 01:16:27.870

uh recall any special impressions of uh of their talk uh of the impressions they made on students? But, you know, yeah, I remember in the Ward, I don't remember uh I remembered a tremendous feeling of admiration and affection for the courage that uh J will show

01:16:28.020 - 01:16:58.000

in doing that for uh uh and they killed him later. Tremendous admiration for his courage and wrong headed uh a word. I don't remember. Uh why do you think it took uh special courage for the in you need to uh talk was the atmosphere possible to

01:16:58.020 - 01:17:28.350

him? No, it's hospital master in this hospital before in this hospital for reaction. And uh uh uh and the majority of the people who came there did not come to anything good. No problem. It, it could have very easily turned into a lynching party kind of

01:17:28.359 - 01:17:53.560

atmosphere again, had been for the way, how did you react to the vote that was taken? Uh or maybe you just explained it uh the, the people who had come had come to hear the anti method. And so, um how do you count? I is this

01:17:53.569 - 01:18:13.529

how you account for the fact, there was no relatively not saying, I think the vote was 950 to 7 or something of that sort on a motion that basically the same as one the faculty on. Uh Yeah, again, I think I was foregone conclusion and this

01:18:13.540 - 01:18:33.240

is why I say that it took tremendous skill. Um And uh on the part of the students to, to uh see that this did not turn into a men part because it was very clearly. Um You know, we, we didn't come to discuss, we came to

01:18:33.250 - 01:19:11.890

vote. Do you um here the um Chris conference or Mason either uh with the local press or, uh, he talked with the students afterwards that, like, around noon. So, no, I've heard, uh, uh, another thing, uh, I do given my argument no, from their own point

01:19:11.899 - 01:19:38.560

of view. Uh, I know that I will know from my own and if there's something that I'm going to want, uh, to talk with people about later, I don't wanna see it. I don't wanna hear it. I wanna hear only what people say about. And so

01:19:38.609 - 01:20:06.390

uh I got, I talked with him. OK. And have gotten, you know, the blind men and the elephant. OK. OK. Is that, is that what the reactor? Yes. If you uh elaborate on that, what uh when you say the blind men and the elephant, uh what,

01:20:06.629 - 01:20:25.629

what, what kind of abstractions have you made of? What the description you've heard of this event? Uh Nothing about the event uh Only about the people who've been reporting. Uh And uh I, I've talked uh with students with whom I know I'm going to have to

01:20:25.640 - 01:20:46.029

work for. And uh in order that I can have some kind of an idea of how they basically so that when, when I'm, I'm working with him, I'll be able to work with him in ways that they're after and they're familiar with um uh see the

01:20:46.040 - 01:21:10.729

one, for example, uh one of them was uh my president, the former president common here. It was not good and I knew we were going to be working in two. And so I was, it was after, you know, what they saw was going on without regard

01:21:10.740 - 01:22:01.640

to quote unquote, what was really going to. Um, and, uh, oh, the impressions that I got, uh, from them, uh, were essentially impressions that they could not understand how it could be that adult rational men and they were supposed to look up to his teacher would

01:22:01.649 - 01:22:24.529

get themselves. And so then this was the way in which I would be working with them. And then on trying somebody to indicate that that rationality uh follows the basic assumption that you can't make a rational, basic assumption, the rationality of any of the basic assumption,

01:22:24.540 - 01:22:39.549

and you question their basic assumptions, we're questioning from another basic point of view and all of this sort of thing and given the basic assumption, do they follow it through rationally? All, all of this am I making? And what I was trying to indicate to the,

01:22:39.560 - 01:23:14.000

you know, the thing that I was trying to find out from them was what it is. Their expectations were, how are their expectations violated? Uh Their expectations were that, oh, here were supposedly adult rational teachers behaving in ways that they could learn when they said that.

01:23:14.009 - 01:23:45.770

Were they referring to the, uh the teachers out before they were referring, referring to? Uh, and see again, uh the chaos are for me, less important than, than the kinds of, uh the kinds of things they're handling of the tails that are, uh indicate. Uh uh,

01:23:49.040 - 01:24:09.830

let me see if I can do that. Pull some of the, some of the details out. Um, you know the tales that, that they, they felt, uh about, well about Masterson. He, he can either be, he must either be very stupid or very dishonest to think

01:24:09.839 - 01:24:28.229

you could say this to him. And what I would try then to do would be to talk with them. Uh Yeah, such a way that they could begin to see how he could take this position without being either stupid or critic honest would be operating on

01:24:28.240 - 01:24:43.560

the basis of an assumption very different than theirs. Uh In order that, that when, when later on we were going to be working together and we found ourselves in some kind of a thing which in which they thought I would be either stupid or dishonest. They,

01:24:43.569 - 01:24:56.220

they could, they could see that I might be operating in a big some assumption that I wasn't aware of. Uh, and they could help me get that assumption out or, or, or I could do the same with them. Now, some of the things that, that, uh,

01:24:57.169 - 01:25:30.959

that, uh, did bother them, uh, uh was, uh, uh Masterson apparent lack of appreciation of subtle interpersonal relations and he had no idea according to them, uh, that when he was saying something to them that appeared to indicate his openness, he was rather than indicating his

01:25:30.970 - 01:25:57.140

openness, uh, indicating how his mind was already made up. Uh, and, uh, and they, they, they thought, well, you know, uh, uh, he, he, here's the guy because isn't it anyway aware of interpersonal relations in that, uh, am I, am I making sense? Are they talking

01:25:59.290 - 01:26:26.120

going to be impossible to work with? Um, this, uh, could also be interpreted as trying to be extremely frank with the students. And here was the guy he really under the gun, uh who could have have been quite aware uh of, of the subtleties and could

01:26:26.129 - 01:26:45.149

have been quite invasive what? And, and so here's another way of interpreting this and, and these were the kinds of things that, that I got out of all of that. And I am I, yes, let me just see if I understand what you're saying. Uh You're

01:26:45.160 - 01:27:03.390

suggesting that uh and, and you're wanting to work with these two students say CD and uh and Ron Boseman that uh you tried to get them to come around to realizing that uh that there could be uh well, you said other basic assumptions uh for home,

01:27:03.410 - 01:27:26.080

which a man could be operating. Um And this would, would lead to an enlarged understanding and in their mind, if they could realize that that uh it would be more tolerant of, of individual idio or they'd be able to get angrier if they wanted, you know,

01:27:26.089 - 01:27:48.359

not why they were angry were these con, these conversations with, uh, say these particular two, students that the name's been brought up as examples occur, uh, after the series of meetings on Saturday with, uh, Matheson. Yeah, they've been occurring, uh, you know, a little bit of

01:27:48.370 - 01:28:13.310

time. Nancy was in one of my courses. Uh, we talk, uh, about, see, there's been a whole series lapsed since then and this was, of course, in social psychology, you try somehow to, to examine these flaps, the rubric of the course and some of these things

01:28:13.319 - 01:28:48.830

will be brought up. Nancy's also a member of Q I know and choose. Oh, ok. I, I try somehow there's no one right way. I describe it each way we describe comes back to ourselves. Of course. So the, the, these kinds of discussions have been going

01:28:48.839 - 01:29:34.299

on, um, informally ever since. Oh, I haven't seen, yeah, on the Sunday. Um, there was a master's meeting in the afternoon and so, um, was there anything about that meeting, uh, affecting? Yeah, it was a very, a very, uh, difficult meeting. Uh, I a, I think

01:29:34.310 - 01:30:11.379

it's enough for you close to fill. Um, um, I felt it was a mistake. Uh, not for the reason afraid that they're saying I, oh, street and not been able to convince me that Bill had the kind of vision that I would have liked to are

01:30:11.390 - 01:30:42.470

present. So, because I wasn't convinced to still would be the best I do. Roy Uh Royal worked very closely. Um uh Seem to feel I'm, what I'm trying to do is give all, all of these different things. In addition, Street and gym. Both one. Um We

01:30:42.479 - 01:31:05.859

all knew that we were going to have to work together. Uh We couldn't have this on occasion for splitting us so that no one could work together. You have each one of us well, somehow or another to see what we wanted to come to pass. Um

01:31:12.109 - 01:31:46.229

And so I think it was AAA perfect example. Uh People are very divergent go. Uh And this very divergent goal being overridden by the common goal of wanting to stay together. Um And gradually uh out of this uh uh arose the recognition that if Bill did

01:31:46.240 - 01:32:33.439

come, university would get and uh a gradual uh recognition part of it. Three. Yeah. But if they really did, like not that still let you know what it was, you uh not so much tell him not to come. Uh But on would he if he knew

01:32:35.419 - 01:33:13.259

when he was coming to still work and let them know and a decision that somehow or another street we try? Yeah. No. Um In such a way that if he came, he came for months, terrible but still not tell enough to come. Uh Now, uh As

01:33:13.270 - 01:33:48.479

always, each one of us heard the same conclusion seems like it seems that crucial. Uh But I think that uh we came through it to do fairly well. Um The uh felt that uh because the students were going to be interesting what cause that it would

01:33:48.490 - 01:34:24.839

be best not to have them yet as many different versions but kind on as there were people there. But uh trying to get some kind of statement and have, who was we asked one of them clear? It was a very kind of thing. I would have

01:34:24.850 - 01:34:52.779

liked to have been able to do this as an observer rather than, but I had my number. It was naughty. The only make the serve. But I uh I think we did change in way that uh I would not be. And I said, I think we

01:34:52.790 - 01:35:22.299

can take, you can help me show patient, sorry, still kept the common goal in mind. That part of the thing that, that alienated me from the fact that the life did not happen, what uh kind of evidence came out in the meeting that uh was specially

01:35:22.310 - 01:35:57.759

persuasive and convincing doctors. Um Doctor Castaneda that if ma did come, the university was po as in effect, I don't think any new kind of evidence. Uh I think the uh um the evidence that of, of the uh uh of the meeting the day before um

01:35:58.160 - 01:36:38.479

was reinterpreted. Uh I think Ira clear, perhaps the gym would recognize the uh uh tremendous opposition in the history department. Uh There were uh several ad hominem attacks that made them bill, but they were, uh, trying to sign. Ok, you, we, you know, no president can

01:36:38.490 - 01:37:04.879

be all things to our people and, and, and, uh, the individual hassles, uh, could be interpreted in ways different than the guy new evidence. But I think the, uh, what became clear, uh, clearer to, uh, the gym and the street, um, was that events had gone

01:37:04.890 - 01:37:41.350

too far and that, that, uh, the kinds of things that street and, uh, and Jim were interpreting as an obstacle that Bill would be able to work with. Uh because uh they emotional nature is not possible. Sure. II I think that's what's new, is this reinterpretation

01:37:41.370 - 01:38:18.859

of what had gone on. I think some of the things that th this, this is uh I may be anticipating some of your questions. Uh but uh um some of the kinds of things that have been brought up uh about Masterson um were of master and

01:38:18.870 - 01:38:42.899

as a person that I think uh were illegitimate considerations and, and I think some of the faculty members had taught the students done because in the uh meeting Sunday or whenever it was, when, when the devil did the uh college, we on Sunday night just cracked

01:38:42.910 - 01:39:01.589

to the vote on Monday. Uh Although there were some new form of high meetings, uh other times, the, the mass college meetings that took place in every single place with all the, so what I was thinking of that was very nice. Uh Some questions about whether,

01:39:01.600 - 01:39:43.490

for example, Bill had, uh uh, you know, uh I used to close the door for this one lecture. So, um, uh whether or not he was in being ne sound uh, things about, uh, about him as a man, um, which I felt were uh quite irrelevant

01:39:43.500 - 01:40:18.660

because we say in so many different ways, uh of interpreting any kind of action like that. Um, three, these sorts of things uh came up in the collagen comes to, yeah, they were the kinds of things, ok, were judged irrelevant in, in our meeting. What kind

01:40:18.680 - 01:40:55.660

of die? Yeah. Well, I guess the next thing that happened Sunday then lost these series of meetings. Or if you had, was, was there another meeting before that I, I, um, again, informal, uh, you can't, uh, can't, couldn't walk across campus without having to eat, you

01:40:55.669 - 01:41:21.450

know, and, and that sort of thing. But, but, uh, again it was that, uh, in, in these kinds of, uh, when, when I meet and talk to people I was able to that there. Yeah, I was just trying to find out their view and, uh, uh,

01:41:21.459 - 01:41:52.109

it was this time that, um, but you can get the summer romance is really starting. Remember I was talking about how people were being grow, they were not accustomed to living there. Um, but Sunday a, after our meeting it wasn't too long between, between our meeting

01:41:52.120 - 01:42:23.149

and the election. But I, I remember feeling then that, that discipline speaking, we're having a feeling of being drawn together. Like, not in terms of the, uh, school is let out, but in terms of being, I am getting into. Yeah. Good. This was funny. The feeling

01:42:23.160 - 01:42:52.870

of strength and goodness. First to me, me know, uh, what's the, what, what was your, um, reaction to, to that? Ok. There and the things that you'd hope for occur, uh, there again, I was uh I was not able to uh uh to be an observer.

01:42:52.879 - 01:43:40.649

I was a participant. I also felt that I had a roll called me this all to college master, right? That and for notification, any time, a single variable approach and always return it to them whatever. So um my goal there, OK, was trying the best he

01:43:40.680 - 01:44:22.850

could to make sure he decided and could not somehow externalize it. Sorry, I told, I know that's, but because of this, um I did not, again, just land are in here. I observe, I tried the dark again. One try to go down to get a mask.

01:44:24.069 - 01:45:15.259

It's right. That sure the door is clear. It was a pretty OK. Sure. Yeah. Secondly, that uh that no kind oh party line could develop because the party line that uh stuff that each individual would be able to externalize. So whenever I spoke, I would

01:45:15.270 - 01:45:49.970

speak only to that. Uh and I was observing c this is here and so some kind of authoritative party line description of this is what the truth is. So that the question, each time something would come up, it would try to destroy him. Go. Now in

01:45:49.979 - 01:46:23.120

a sense what I wanted happened in that uh um no real party line many people thought was it was for cut like what, what probably come out anyway if they, you know, they want to fight and it never comes out that much. Oh, I do think

01:46:23.939 - 01:46:59.229

that the other expectation, hope at, uh, people who had not already developed a hatred for Masterson didn't develop any. Right. You're here with the guy. Give them rest the first. Uh, not a simple and I don't know. But, but I, I think now in, in this

01:46:59.240 - 01:47:29.040

sense I'd already assumed that, no, I, I didn't in any way try to end it in this aspect of my patient. Only to the idea that each person I have to write to see and make the decision that mass should or should not. Yeah. I don't

01:47:29.049 - 01:48:01.299

know. You know, you never know for people there. Do you have any idea how the vote went and go to college for, on me? The one that was taking li, uh, yeah, it was pretty, uh, pretty clearly. Uh, yeah, anti boring. Um, but the thing that

01:48:01.310 - 01:48:34.689

was interesting to me was that, uh, uh, uh, now those I talked to and I guess I must have gotten about this evening. Exactly. There were uh, about 12 different reasons for the both. Which was, oh, my God. What is your, um, opinion of the, uh,

01:48:36.669 - 01:49:08.200

of the way the vote was taken and representative of, uh, opinions at the time? No faculty. Excuse me. Well, I understand that it was handled differently. Faculty was in the department. If we're in the pathology, I don't, uh, I don't remember having much of a feeling

01:49:08.209 - 01:49:54.549

about it. Uh, and I know, asked it, I'm, I'm trying to reconstruct why? Uh, I guess again, uh, it was my feeling, let me think. Uh, I was again operating on the foregone conclusion of master symptom. Um, and I, I had a feeling, yeah. And reconstruction.

01:49:55.870 - 01:50:26.109

That is the, the American, how it was done. I remembered a, uh, a vote that we had in the faculty sometimes ago about something to do with, uh, intercollegiate football in which when there was a public vote, uh, it went against intercollegiate football when it was

01:50:26.120 - 01:50:48.189

a private vote. It was not so opposed intercollegiate football. And so I thought, well, uh, private vote is opposed to a public vote. Uh, you probably what the attitude would be but I felt that it, it didn't matter one way or another. It's a public vote

01:50:48.200 - 01:51:21.450

and a private vote. I know. Ok. That is, that, uh, is there anything else that happened Monday that, uh, it was important to, if it, though the four day drama, I don't remember that usually, uh, I think usually the dr came around. Well, different people have

01:51:21.459 - 01:52:12.490

different times but I think early afternoon, uh, what was your reaction to you? Oh, I guess, uh, primarily one of, ok, I feel like Cody saw, you know. Yeah. Have you ever known something, um, that you couldn't convince someone of and then

01:52:12.500 - 01:52:46.250

have what you, ok come through is that, you know, it was, it was kind of feeling of right. You know, it proves Bill. No, up, uh, you know, eeee everything we can and sometimes be sensible, I guess. And I've been arguing, it could be what, I

01:52:46.270 - 01:53:09.930

don't know if that's, it's not, it's not. Uh, see, I told you so a way of describing it. I, I'm too smart. I don't mean that, but I, I guess that was, uh, the kind of feeling that, well, you know, that, that, that we knew it

01:53:09.939 - 01:53:47.879

was gonna happen. Now that was in some ways another, it, uh, it, uh, the vindicated pill. Yeah, in some way or another it, uh, vindicated to students, right? They felt something in common. They both the drug that, um, it, uh, I guess the only thing I,

01:53:47.890 - 01:54:18.069

I have a feeling of regret. No, the board had not made it easier for him, bo made it easier for him to not any sort of, uh, in some way or another indicated that all of us was somehow or another receptible fashion. Um, but I'm not

01:54:18.080 - 01:54:41.029

sure I understand what you mean when you say it, the board to make it easier for messages redone. Uh I don't know what went on privately, but the impression I got went on publicly uh was born, uh was saying, uh no, we're not about to uh

01:54:41.439 - 01:55:03.120

review heart decisions. Uh He signed a contract with us. We're quite um lo holding to the con, you know, this sort of thing. Uh And I would have been happier if they would have said we want him to come. We, we made the best thing. We

01:55:03.189 - 01:55:25.669

think the faculty and everybody else have been damn fools but uh with a friend or into a contract, yeah, come and some sort of a thing like now they might have done that privately, but I got no, no knowledge of and I got only publicly that,

01:55:25.990 - 01:55:57.589

that he forced to drink again. Didn't make it any. If I say again, privately, you might have done. I'm looking back on this uh whole episode. Uh Doctor One, what's the, what are, what are some of the ideas you, you have about it? Uh In regards

01:55:57.600 - 01:56:39.109

to your, it's for lasting effects, I have a feeling of tremendous regret because I have a feeling now that uh unless we have some kind uh um changes in some of the faculty and some of the board, uh we're going to have battle lines between them

01:56:42.450 - 01:57:17.990

faculty and I think the students are going to suffer because I know I think the board's going to press for, uh, for actions that are apparently pain that, yeah, holding down student unrest but are in reality, let I know that I had a, uh, uh, SQT

01:57:19.419 - 01:57:46.439

is a, is a member of it and, uh, we had a, a regularly scheduled meeting of Q, uh, again, I don't remember the dates but within, within a, a short time after, uh, after, uh, Bill had resigned and, uh we were trying to get up a

01:57:46.450 - 01:58:22.020

questionnaire uh for you to send out to, to the alumni. And this was the uh on the agenda. Uh And so we went through this, this uh this me with teeth there and all the fun, quite outspoken. Anyway, we went through this whole meeting and it

01:58:22.029 - 01:58:40.919

looked as though we were going to quit without ever mentioning that we've just gotten through and I felt that we could never continue to operate if all of these things were left instead. And so I found it, it's gotta be, it's gotta come out in the

01:58:41.200 - 01:59:13.850

open. Uh And so I, I fucked up. Um And I think it, in some ways it did clear the air uh and t uh just unloaded. I had hoped that uh in, in opening it up. Uh I could use that occasion for uh for us beginning

01:59:13.859 - 01:59:33.430

to work more closely with him as a member of the board in hugs planning. Uh And I did uh indicate that uh that in, in opening it up, that, that uh there are so many ways to excellence and that, that it would be most helpful to

01:59:33.450 - 01:59:48.060

us if, if we have some kind of an idea of the thinking of the board on their ways of excellence, did they s did by their choice of fact, and they symbolized that they wanted to return to undergraduate, uh or did they thought true clearly that

01:59:48.069 - 02:00:10.359

they wanted to return? And so I hoped by in, in addition to clearing the air, we could move on this way. Uh But I think the board members were so hurt that that that was fatigued, spoke, uh He couldn't speak to move on in the direction

02:00:10.370 - 02:00:53.109

he spoke on to uh to the tremendous dedication of the members of the board. OK. No oration or enough money high, all, all the, all the good. Um And uh it was, it was so clear that uh that here was a proud man um who felt

02:00:54.459 - 02:01:36.350

completely and utterly misjudged that uh one couldn't help but feel it. Uh It would take some years very per close personal contact with him before that we were not rejecting. And uh they're, they're also that they're, they're accustomed to acting in ways very different. That uh

02:01:40.939 - 02:02:05.680

do you remember when I was talking earlier about the drone cortex and how there's some faculty members, all the good will in the world cannot operate uh under and the student so a good, a good teacher, fine, like, but they cannot operate to have this clear

02:02:05.709 - 02:02:34.720

cut idea of what of course should be like. Uh and they can operate. Uh And then some of the faculty members can learn from it. Well, I, I think that same thing, trust me, they cannot operate under conditions which they do not set the, with heart

02:02:34.729 - 02:03:03.379

touch. But, ok. Well, you got, you got the faculty members. Yeah, there are ideas sometimes very interested. They don't know they have, you trust me to have that both of them were enlightenment that this bacteria? No idea. Is it working the way things are? And, and

02:03:03.390 - 02:03:35.100

this is for uh we hope that Q could help heal the breach. It doesn't appear so it can, I don't know. Are there any other committees on which member of the board uh sits as a, as a member? Is, is alimony? No, you know, they, the

02:03:35.149 - 02:04:11.609

that bo cardiac. No uh across the board. Black six. That's why II I would, I would like to see we talk to you lunch, lunch time. I uh I didn't know it's gone that long. Was there anything else you wanted to uh add uh for this

02:04:11.620 - 02:04:28.459

stage? No, I uh just that, I think a fine idea. You're trying this, find the life that comes out of me. Well, you'll, you'll have the traffic much sooner than that. We do the whole thing. Yeah. How many, how many people were looking at the elephant.

02:04:31.270 - 02:04:34.830

Well, I certainly appreciate the time to give this after a while to answer it.