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Today is June 27th, 2021. My name is Ann Shi, I'm an associate curator at the Houston Asian American Archive at Rice University. Today we're taking an oral history interview with Xuan-Hui Ng, who is currently

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dialing in from Tokyo, Japan, for her oral history documentary. It's 7 a.m. Tokyo time so we're really appreciative. Thank you so much Xuan, for joining us.

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Yeah, thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, you’re very welcome. And starting from the very beginning of your story, can you tell us when, once upon a time, where were you born?

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Um, great. I was born in Singapore and raised there until I went to university— went to college in the United States, at MIT. Um, can you tell us a little bit about your family— how they came to

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Singapore? Right. My dad was originally from China, he was born there. And I think it was— and the family moved to Singapore when he was very, very young.

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My mother is a second generation Singaporean, so her father was born in China. Her mother was an Indonesian Chinese. So both– on both sides of my— well both

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my parents are essentially immigrants from China. And can you tell us a little bit about your name Xuan-Hui Ng? Yeah.

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So in— my–my dad is, is a teochew. So that's from a certain part in China— from the southern part of China. And they speak with a dialect there.

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And in his dialect, the surname is pronounced as 'Ng.' But in Mandarin, if we go with the hanyu pinyin— which is the standard way of spelling or pronouncing Chinese names— it's supposed to be 'Huang'—so

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H-U-A-N-G, instead of just N-G. So that's caused a bit of confusion, especially to native Chinese, as well as to Hong Kongers, because they think it's a different character.

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My name Xuan-Hui is spelt in the hanyu pinyin way, so that furthers the confusion, because there is a mixture of dialect as well as the standard Chinese spelling in my name. Xuan Hui—Xuan means 'profound' in

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Mandarin; and Hui means 'intelligent' in Mandarin. So I was told that the parents usually named the children after what they hope

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their children will inherit, in terms of characteristics from the name. And so that was how I was named. And can you tell us a little bit about the family values that your parents brought you up with?

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My— my dad was always busy when I was young. So my mom took care of most of my, I guess, education. That, and then she told me—I think what she believes in is hard

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work. And also learning— to keep learning. Even when you're old, you should continue learning. So— and that education, once it's acquired, it belongs to you forever.

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And that's something that no one can take away from you. So that's something that has really stayed with me, even though she has passed away for over 20 years. My dad, although he's not

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often at home, I think that what I really remember from him is also hard work. I think that's one of the key values that I learned from him, o-o-or should I say that I see

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in him, because he worked really hard. And I remember on weeknights—actually I’m sorry—weekends, after dinner— he would try to take us out once a week for dinner.

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That usually was on a Saturday. And after dinner, he used to run a bus company. He would take us on a car ride and basically go around to see how the buses are

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operating. So we will be like, driving, following behind the buses to see if his first drivers are driving too quickly, if they are violating any traffic rules. So that's something that sticks in my mind, to this–to this very

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day. And what are some of the childhood food that you grew up eating? Like, is it— Well I— my

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family is from southern China, like both–both sides. My mom is Hokkien so she belongs to a different dialect. But she spoke Cantonese as well. And so I think our food was mainly Chinese-based when

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we're eating at home. But when I was in school— Singapore is multicultural, multiracial, so I get to eat Malay food, Indian food. And to me that's really exciting, because it's

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different from what I eat at home. Food at school used to be so cheap. So, it was like, probably under 50 cents, US–in

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U. S. terms. Or cheaper, probably be about like, 30 cents in US dollars. So, it was very delicious and it was just great. Lots of local food, basically.

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So would your parents— one of them— usually cook? Or would–would it be your grandparents cooking? No. We lived away from my grandparents, so my mother would usually be the one who cooked.

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But I learned from my dad that she did not know how to cook when she first married my dad. So my dad had to teach her how to boil water. And that's how she started.

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But she learned from a cookbook, and so I was surprised when I learned later, when I was older, that she didn't know how to cook when she first got married, because to me it was

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all so delicious. And she would do that—she would cook after she returned from work. She was a teacher who was teaching in high school and teaching Mandarin.

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So how many languages did you grow up speaking? Um, I spoke Cantonese with my mother and English— some English with my dad, and Mandarin in school— that's when I learned it.

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Although my mom was a Mandarin teacher, I didn't learn to speak Mandarin until I got to school. Yeah, I was just amazed how many languages you speak. It was these three languages.

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I think Cantonese— I watched a lot of TV series from Hong Kong when I was growing up and my mom loved watching TV too. So we would both watch the TV series. And so I think that's what helped me with my Cantonese

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growing up. Japanese was something that I learned when I was— when I started learning in college. I wish I had started learning earlier, because I didn't realize that the accent is something that is much easier to acquire

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if you start learning younger. If I had the chance to reverse time, that's what I would do. And also, I'm curious with what kinds of memories of your

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birthplace— which is Singapore— that got really imprinted in your mind up till now. Like what kind of childhood games you play, or were there any significantly

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influential— like impactful memory that kind of shaped your future? I think school was really fun. Learning in school— and I don't know why, but the other day, I was just thinking of this game that we played during recess, so

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during lunch break. And it was just like jumping around. But for some reason, some of these games that I played, still, I think of them like randomly every now and then. I

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think looking back, I wish I had spent more time enjoying school, rather than being more studious. So yeah, I think childhood was fun.

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Yeah, that's wonderful. And what–what is the kind of diversity like in your school, given Singapore is also very multicultural and multi-ethnic place? Yeah I— unfortunately, I think my exposure to— I

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think my— sorry, my primary school and secondary school— that's how they call it in Singapore— I think most of my classmates were Chinese, but I'd moved on. Perhaps it's the nature of my school.

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But when I moved on to secondary school— which is, and later to junior college or high school, as you call it in the States— that's when I started getting friends from different races.

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But I am embarrassed to say that my understanding started much later. And I had to be educated, or I had to educate myself, and I'm really bad at festivals. And as you know, in Singapore, like, for me as a

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kid, the festivals of the different— and like whether it's races or religion. To me, it's just holiday. I was like, "Yay, another

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day off from school." But I wish I had learned more. And that's something I do. Like, when there is a festival these days, I would actually have to look up on Wikipedia and learn more about it to

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re-educate or to educate myself anew... Yeah, I think that's— I got out of school and started working. And that's when my exposure got greater.

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I remember when— in fact when I was working in Hong Kong— the majority of my vice presidents, the VPs at the investment bank that I worked at, were from India. So it was a very interesting combination to actually start

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working with people of different races. They were most intelligent. ITT graduates. Yeah, I was really amazed by how— yeah, how we got to work

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together. And I think the amazement or the surprise was due to ignorance on my part. In college, when I— when I attended college at MIT, that's when I got to... that's when I got to see the other

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races in the States as well. I mean, there are not that many white people in Singapore, or like Black people. As well as, of course, the Hispanics and the minorities in the States.

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It was a new— it was an entirely new world to me. It was actually really fun because I'm learning both economics— which is what I majored in at MIT— as well as learning more about the people around me.

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Was there any culture shock when you first arrived in the US? Well, less than I thought, perhaps because I was expecting a different— a world— I was expecting a world that would be very different from mine.

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So I think I was a bit— I was mentally prepared for it. And—but I didn't feel— I didn't feel uncomfortable. Yeah, I think that's one thing.

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I have traveled with my family before, so to me it was just, "Oh, this is exploring a different culture." So there wasn't really much of a culture shock. I think I was

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more a culture shock when I came to Japan , or when I started traveling to some other places when I got older. But in school, I thought it was still quite a safe environment, in terms of like, everyone was just there.

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Perhaps because we had a common objective, which was to study and have fun. And so, I didn't really feel the difference, or any forms of shock. Or perhaps I was just unaware, that could be it,

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too. Did you have any mentor that significantly impacted your decision to go abroad to the U. S. and study? No, but I think my-my family had— my

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parents had always wanted me to be exposed to life abroad, overseas. My mother, she had to fight for her rights to be educated in a university. I think in her days, men, or like

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male, were more highly valued than females. And although her family was relatively well-to-do and she could go to university, she could not go abroad to study, even though she had the qualifications.

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So I think she had always wanted me to go abroad. And from my dad's perspective, he did have a chance to go on an exchange program

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when he was a student. And he spent some time in Santa Fe— sorry not Santa Fe— San Jose in California with a host family.

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And that's when he took up sailing. He was a Boy Scout, a Boy Scout too. So, for different reasons— but my— both my parents wanted me to study abroad, to live abroad,

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and to be exposed to different cultures, different people, and a different style of education. I think they were the biggest influence of mine to apply to

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college in the States. And speaking of your two major careers in investment banking and in art, like what was some of the kind of the forces, that pull you towards either?

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Like, why did you study economics at MIT? And like, what was the first encounter of arts in your life? And how did that came about?

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In Singapore, we follow the British education system. So I took my A levels of work qualification into college, and my weakest subject was economics. I don't know why, but for some reason, that's what I decided to

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major in. I think, because mathematics— like mathematics was my strongest subject. But I did realize that I wasn't a math genius, but I wanted to do something

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that utilized mathematics that also had the qualitative element to it. And so I thought economics was a good combination of both. And I know that in-in-in UK, that was more— that was my impression, that it would be more qualitative, but in the

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States, economics would be slightly more quantitative. There was that reason for opting to study economics in the States. My first job was actually as a

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research assistant at the IMF and so that's continuing along the lines of economics. But there were some changes in my life. At that time my mother passed away during my

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first year of work and I had to fly back. So I thought I wanted to be closer to Asia and instead of continuing on the career path of a research assistant by going back to graduate school, I decided to leave the IMF and

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head back to Asia. The reason for selecting investment banking is actually quite a trivial one. The reason is, one of my best friends, my best college buddies from the States had gone

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to work in Hong Kong, at JP Morgan investment bank, and she seemed to be having so much fun. And so I thought, well, investment banking sounds like— seems similar enough to economics, or at

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least in terms of the required training, or so I thought. And I thought Hong Kong would be a great place to live in for a while. So I started applying to investment banks in Hong

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Kong, as well as in Singapore. It turned out to be different from what I expected, but it was very challenging, but as well as

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very fun at that time, because we had a very good set of— I had a very good set of colleagues. So we worked hard together, and we played very hard together as well. The switch to photography came about

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after many years later, and I had been working in the field of finance, a bit in and out. I think I began to realize that investment banking, for me, as a long-term career was just not very

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suited to my personality, as well as to my long-term interest. I picked up photography about 10 years ago, and I realized at a certain point— about for, like, five, six years ago— that I could not

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manage both as well as I want. And that if I want to improve in my photography, I would have to leave investment banking. So that was a choice that I had to make.

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And I made it, to leave banking. I think the mentality— because I photograph landscapes in nature— and the frame of mind that I was in when working as an investment banker, was just very, very different.

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It was— I had to be constantly checking my Blackberry at that time for work. Any responses that I— a-any client, any emails from clients that I had to respond immediately, or I felt that I should respond immediately.

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So I remember vividly this experience when I was-I was taking two weeks off in Mongolia, but I had work to do. So every time we went close to a cell tower, and I thought I had a signal, I would be checking my email, trying to

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receive incoming messages. And when we didn't have cell tower contact, I would be typing responses to my clients or to my colleagues, and then waiting for the next opportunity to send them out when we are close to the

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next cell tower. So it's that constant state of being— I think the mind had to be constantly active. And so it was difficult to balance that with nature photography, where I needed to

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spend time to soak in nature and enjoy the surrounding and be able to see. There was a point in time when I was so tired from work that I just couldn't feel, I couldn't create the images.

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So that was when I realized that I had to pick one or the other. Um, I'm not sure if you covered this. Would you mind elaborating on how art like initially come into your

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life? Was that during college or like earlier, or childhood? Um, I'll say my first experiences with art were not pleasant. My mom tried to make me to do like cross stitch, crochet.

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And we had to— we had art classes where we had to paint. And I didn't like the fact that we had to— that it was so precise. And my hands were not very good at crocheting, so my mom would like hit my

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fingers every time I get it wrong, So I like— learning how was fine, but crochet I just couldn't do it. So I really didn't like it. My— I fell in love

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with art or the notion of art when I was picking posters for my college dorm room. So I think I was in JCPenny, there at the poster shop. And I was just flipping through the posters, and I came across Monet's

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"Sunrise." Then I went, "Oh, that was beautiful." And my first poster, my first dorm room poster, was Monet. The next one was Renoir. I didn't know who these people were but, again,

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once I found that piece of art on a poster, I started looking at the web to see who they were and to learn more about them. And so one thing led to the next; there was like Degas and then Chagall.

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So that was my first real exposure to the art world, to painters. I took up photography after a trip— I was in between jobs, so this is jumping a number of years forward to when I

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was in between jobs. I think I left— I just left JP Morgan— sorry let me think again. No, I left another bank and I

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was in between jobs. And I decided to do— to go to Tibet for a trip. The reason for taking that trip, and for that

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break from work was... I was— I think I was— my mom passed away right after like the first year of work after college. I think the way I dealt with it was to suppress

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my memories of her and my sadness, and I think because I just didn't want to deal with it. I remember within two weeks of her funeral, I was— or within a week or 10 days, I was back in the States, because I just wanted to run away from it all.

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And that was how I dealt with the death of my mother. And so I think it was never quite resolved, resolved emotionally for me. I just like— I just buried it,

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all my emotions. And then I had a very bad breakup. That was about six years later, after her death. And then, I think there was an accumulation of these factors, so I was in

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a very bad spot at that time. And, like, probably four or five years. And then after that, I— but I reached a point where I realized that I needed to move on, I needed to

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pick myself up, I needed to stop feeling sorry for myself. I think at that time, it was just about me, me, me, about the sadness that consumed me. So I realized I needed to do something about it.

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And I thought I would go on a trip to Tibet to— it was working at the orphanage for about a month or two, so for two months. And during that time, we would get to travel around Tibet as well,

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as a group. So this organization was based in the States and I signed up for it. And I went with a group of young people like myself, to–to go travel as well as to—

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not work, but just to help out at the orphanage. And I think that's, that's when I— and that's when I started changing, I felt. And that was also where I found peace when I was

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sitting by Lake Namtso, this highly elevated lake in Tibet. It was just so peaceful and calm and for the first time, I felt that my— all the

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unhappiness and the sadness were just being pushed out by the beauty of nature. So— and that sense of relief was good enough for me, to–to make me realize that it

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was possible. And that was where I realized that life was beautiful, as this monk— as this meditation specialist actually once said to me, and that was “Life is beautiful.” And I think it was there that I realized that life— that nature is so beautiful, that

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there are just so many and many amazing sights that I need to explore and to live for and to enjoy. And that's what— that's when things started changing.

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And looking back at images, pictures from that trip with some of my friends, or the friends that I made took pictures of me playing with the orphans, and I was really laughing. And so I realized that happiness was

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possible again. And I realized that I— so, like one or two years later, I bought a camera. And took up photography

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lessons online. So that was my first exposure. I didn't know what an F stop was. I had only the snapshot camera,

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and then I moved on to the digital camera, like my first digital SLR camera. And I didn't know how to use it— I didn't know how to use it. So I had to learn.

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And–and I took some workshops at the Santa Fe Photography Workshop. But my purpose there was more to learn about photographing people, because I think I'm not the most comfortable photographing people.

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And I was much more— and I am still much more comfortable photographing nature. So going back a little bit, it's super interesting and fascinating to hear that art entered your life as a way of

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therapy and meditate-meditation, if you call that. So do you make art for yourself? And to this day, like, do you make art for yourself or for an audience or appreciator of your

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art? I think I first started photography as self-therapy so that I can take more images of— photographs of nature, because they— just being in nature was very calming and therapeutic. And photographing those images, it

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eternalizes these memories, and they prolong the sense of peace, calm, that I felt when I was surrounded by nature. So, for me, these

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short trips— so I started working in Japan in 2010. And the reason for that is so that I can travel to Hokkaido more frequently. And maybe be over there on weekends or whenever I

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can. It's just much more accessible, like one hour away from Tokyo. And I was still working in investment banking then, so these trips to me were extremely precious, because of

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time I had for myself and also the time to spend in the place I liked. So it–it-it did start as photographing for myself.

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And over time, I think I was— I became less reliant, especially after I left banking to focus on photography. It was no longer a stress reliever since I can photograph like— since I was not like working in investment bank and did not have

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the stresses of work, per se. I was teaching business English, and that— the requirements on me, mentally, were different. And I was— I thought I was giving back to

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society, from like giving more back. Plus in investment banking, we were helping out with clients, but I felt I was— it was a different type of giving, without

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the stress perhaps. And so the relationship between me and photography started evolving without–without me really being aware of it. It was only in retrospect that I realized,

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"Ah okay, that was when it started evolving." But because I was less reliant on it as a stress reliever, as therapy, I think I began to enjoy being in nature and enjoy photographing more. And

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there is something— I always thought that these photographs— when I show it to my friends, they-they seem to enjoy it, I think, for two reasons. One, they see a different type of world.

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They see scenes that they have not been able to witness before. That's one. And number two, I think some find a therapeutic element in it too.

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So I realized that it's not just for me, but also for my friends as well as the audience whom I show these images to. So it is my hope that both my audience— that my audience can find that sense of calm, that peace

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that I felt when I was photographing these images. So I think it started off as something for myself, I still think it's something for myself but with that hope—

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with the side hope that it will also resonate with people. I learned that different people would interpret the images differently because of their experiences. So some

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might see the image and feel happy, like just— that it's all about happiness. But some might actually see the same image and think it's about sadness or loneliness.

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So I think the interpretation is very dependent on the person and their experiences. But I just hoped that it would resonate with them somehow, and that they would find these images healing in one way

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or another. It's really fascinating, also, to see that the works, your series of work, "Remembrance," is very personal. Like it talks about your own trauma from like sadness

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of losing your mom. And also "Metamorphosis," which talks about your decision and leaving banking and moving— devoting yourself to art more completely.

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So yeah, it's definitely really interesting to see that connection between your personal stories, your narratives, and a more kind of general emotion, that connection with the audience. Yeah, I think I realized that I— "Metamorphosis"

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was the first project that I worked on. I-I chose that name, because it was about the changing seasons that I love so much in Hokkaido. But as well as the changes in me that

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I have observed over time. It was 10 years when I started photographing in that place. So for me, I think my projects named or I— have the

00:37:08.230 - 00:37:26.160

stages or the— it reflects the frame of mind that I am in or that I have or had. So "Metamorphosis" is about the possibility of change. To me, it's hopeful because it's actually possible

00:37:26.750 - 00:37:46.590

to change. At least-at least in some way. I think— I know, there's a saying that you know, it's impossible to change, but I think-I think it's very difficult, but at least some parts are possible, if we really commit to it

00:37:46.770 - 00:38:01.720

and allow ourselves that freedom and that ability, and also to forgive ourselves for being one way and being willing to see that perhaps

00:38:01.720 - 00:38:19.160

another way might be better. "Remembrance" was very personal. It was more about— it's realizing that by suppressing my memories of my mother or the sadness, I was losing the

00:38:19.160 - 00:38:31.300

memories of her as well, because I was not thinking about her. When you not— when you do not think about something, you start to forget. And, or the

00:38:31.300 - 00:38:50.710

memories become thinner and thinner, or they fade. And so it's just remembering— celebrating her life, actually. And I know she loved flowers, I know that she would have loved to come more often to Japan to visit, especially

00:38:50.710 - 00:39:07.580

during the spring season, where the cherry blossoms are blooming. There is a third project which is called "Adrift," and it's about celebrating the people around us. The people who are still alive.

00:39:08.790 - 00:39:29.540

I think in our— or at least in my attempt to— or making my situation, I realized that I was so hung up on my mother that I probably forgot to devote enough attention and time to my father and my brother and

00:39:29.560 - 00:39:45.390

sister. Although the projects are about me, and— but I was much older than my brother and sister, seven and nine years older than they–they are— than they were when I lost my mother— than when we lost our mother.

00:39:46.400 - 00:40:01.770

I think if it was difficult for me, I imagine it was much more difficult for them. But I did not have the capacity at that time to-to think about that. It was at the back of my mind but I don't think I had— I

00:40:04.640 - 00:40:18.650

did not have the capacity to pay too much attention to the things that were happening around me, which is what— why I said that, at Lake Namtso in

00:40:18.730 - 00:40:32.430

Tibet, where the change happened, it was realizing that the world— life is much bigger than I am. And it was that realization that— the project only came about much later.

00:40:33.390 - 00:40:48.120

And it's called "Adrift." It is about me being lost and then found, and I just wanted to make sure that— and I'm thankful that it's not too late to celebrate–to

00:40:49.940 - 00:41:10.440

celebrate the people who are still alive around me, and that's family and friends who have put up with me and supported me, throughout my years of—throughout-throughout my challenging years, or throughout the years when I was

00:41:10.680 - 00:41:28.040

very difficult to deal with. Yeah, it definitely is fascinating to see the kind of life and death as your series of motifs because "Metamorphosis" is also about like a rebirth.

00:41:28.040 - 00:41:41.830

Whereas "Remembrance," you're kind of tracing death. With "Adrift" you're treasuring the living ones around you. It's definitely super interesting to see that motif being part of your work.

00:41:42.740 - 00:41:56.450

Yes, and perhaps it doesn't go too far away from death. I think it's realizing that-that there is m-mort— that there is mortality that life is. There is a finite number of years.

00:41:56.790 - 00:42:12.870

My mom passed away at 50 and I'm not too far away from age 50. So, and my–and my dad is getting old. And so I think, like I said, I'm just glad it's not too

00:42:12.890 - 00:42:28.370

late to remember the people around me, to celebrate the people around me. I think life is very unpredictable. I think with COVID-19, that has brought it close to home.

00:42:30.270 - 00:42:45.070

I was— I'm fortunate that I may not have very close friends who have passed away from COVID-19; but even the past few years, there were some friends who have passed away. Like uncles, people of the same age.

00:42:45.090 - 00:43:04.580

So I think it brings it close to home, and approaching the age when my mom passed away is a reminder, or is a constant reminder that life is precious, and that we have to— that we need

00:43:04.600 - 00:43:25.090

to take care of, or at least treasure the people around us. Um and yeah. Sorry, I cut you off. Oh, yeah, I was just gonna say, given we're

00:43:25.090 - 00:43:40.390

already on the topic of COVID-19 and I saw your video work, "Ephemeral." Is that something that rel— that relates to COVID-19 and if you want to talk a little bit about your time during COVID?

00:43:42.040 - 00:44:00.370

"Adrift"— the project "Adrift" was— like most of the images were taken during COVID-19. The video "Ephemeral," I think there are two videos. Yeah, "Ephemeral" was right when COVID-19 started.

00:44:00.790 - 00:44:15.490

I think at that time, I still did not have a sense of what it really was. I didn't— I think I was— I didn't think it would last this

00:44:15.590 - 00:44:30.630

long. I thought maybe like three months, and then it just went on. But "Ephemeral," the— that was still when it just started, the video that was taken. So it hasn't really struck me yet.

00:44:31.830 - 00:44:45.750

But when I moved on to spring, and then later on to summer, but especially spring, Japan was in a state of emergency, a strict lockdown. And so gyms were

00:44:45.790 - 00:45:03.060

closed, department stores were closed. And most of my clients— my students, who are bankers at where I used to work, Citigroup in Japan, as well as some other

00:45:03.240 - 00:45:16.090

banks— they had to stop working at the office. And so I couldn't teach as well for some time. And because everyone thought it's not going to last for too long, and that things

00:45:16.090 - 00:45:33.680

would get back to normal, but at least we thought at the time. So lessons stopped, because I think there was still value attached to face-to-face sessions rather than online and Zoom. It was only when people realized that this is

00:45:34.060 - 00:45:53.410

here to stay, that everything started moving online in Japan at least. I think in Japan there is still much value placed on face-to-face interaction. And a lot of the— and perhaps like best— but then everything

00:45:53.460 - 00:46:10.070

started moving online. And so it was in spring, in May, that I found myself stuck in Hokkaido. And that's when I spent a lot of

00:46:10.070 - 00:46:20.970

time photographing. And there was a lot of uncertainty as well— I'm sorry, Xuan. You got cut out, you froze for about 30 seconds.

00:46:22.040 - 00:46:38.500

Okay. So let me start with when everything went online, and I was stuck in Hokkaido. Actually, I was fortunate to be stuck in Hokkaido for about a month. So I— that's when I photographed a lot.

00:46:38.970 - 00:46:58.750

And I think that's when things started sinking in that COVID-19 is really here to stay, and that working from home, doing Zoom calls, teaching online, is the new norm. But even realizing that, there was not that much work

00:46:59.390 - 00:47:11.810

on the English lessons side, so I had a lot of time to photograph. And I think the images might reflect that. The theme was like

00:47:11.810 - 00:47:23.300

fog. And I was constantly looking for fog. And it happened to be a very, very foggy spring. And so I felt that everything seemed to fall into place.

00:47:27.060 - 00:47:46.790

The uncertainty I thought about— that was so in terms of what I was seeing, and how I felt, it was aligned. And it was very interesting that way. And I also think it's fascinating to draw this connection between landscape

00:47:46.940 - 00:47:57.120

and figure, and you don't have figuration in your works. But it is about people. It's about you, your relationship, your encounter.

00:47:58.590 - 00:48:13.310

And can you talk about how like, what feeds your art, what goes into your creative process? I— for me, photographing people is difficult.

00:48:14.790 - 00:48:33.270

I have seen my mentor, my photography mentor, and... photograph people and she's just so natural when interacting with them. I remember my first trip with her was to Guizhou in China.

00:48:34.070 - 00:48:46.920

She doesn't speak Mandarin, I speak Mandarin, but she was so much better at interacting with them than I was. And so I think it's—

00:48:49.370 - 00:49:06.870

I'm not sure why but I think it's my character. I'm not the type that— and I'm not the type that's comfortable with people easily. So I might appear to do so when I'm with clients, but

00:49:06.950 - 00:49:18.090

there is a mission there, right? There is an objective when I'm dealing with clients. So I find myself just diving in, in those situations.

00:49:18.200 - 00:49:34.720

But when I'm on my own, I find it very difficult to get those— I think starting up a conversation is possible, but getting close, emotionally close, is difficult. And so people photography for me is

00:49:35.180 - 00:49:54.220

extremely difficult. I-I don't think I'm able to capture the essence, their spirit, as other photographers can do so. Nature photography or landscape photography resonates with me.

00:49:55.370 - 00:50:09.660

Maybe because of the nature— because nature and landscapes themselves resonate with me. So I find myself in sync with nature, with landscapes, and I'm like, "So

00:50:10.390 - 00:50:25.100

beautiful. Wow, I love this. I need to photograph this." And moving back to your earlier point on "Ephemeral." I think there was something about— and I think it applies to people as well, like

00:50:25.980 - 00:50:38.710

the smiles, for example, that emotion that–that facial expression, they are all fleeting so you have to capture that. I think for me, I'm capturing

00:50:38.710 - 00:50:53.950

the expressions, the fleeting expressions of nature and landscape. And for me, it's just easier to do it with landscape and nature. I find myself less hesitant,

00:50:55.560 - 00:51:12.570

perhaps less aware of the interaction around me when I'm photographing nature and landscapes. And you mentioned Tibet being one of the— and Hokkaido being

00:51:12.570 - 00:51:28.410

one of the destinations where you go for shots. Can you talk a little bit about how you travel to these places and what kind of selection processes? And during your creative process what-what are your kind

00:51:28.410 - 00:51:37.410

of mental state like? What kind of list— what kind of music do you listen to? What do you like to do? What are some of the smaller habits, just to take us kind of into

00:51:37.410 - 00:51:50.160

your studio space? Right. So on the selection of places. Tibet, I've actually not been back to Tibet since then. The landscape was beautiful.

00:51:51.190 - 00:52:11.880

I think for me it was more difficult to go back. In terms of accessibility, Hokkaido is just much more convenient for me. But there's another reason why Hokkaido resonates with me and that is, I think when I was

00:52:11.880 - 00:52:28.980

younger, my dad would try to take the family away at least once a year for a trip during our school holidays. And I think I remember— I think I was about 9 or 10 when we first

00:52:28.980 - 00:52:41.100

went to Hokkaido as a family, and it was during winter. And there was something very peaceful about it. I had to bring my holiday homework.

00:52:42.650 - 00:52:58.030

In Singapore, it's year end holiday homework so I had to bring like my schoolwork there, but even then, it was a great break. Like even if it's like four or five days, I was really happy. So I think it's that childhood memory, the simplicity of life,

00:52:58.440 - 00:53:15.710

then—it's just like homework and fun and play and my family was intact. My mother was there, my brother was born— was a couple years old and my sister was just born. And so it was just very nice memories, childhood

00:53:16.430 - 00:53:33.030

memories. I think it's just the simplicity. So that stayed with me, and when I started working in Hong Kong after leaving the IMF, I find myself being drawn back

00:53:33.340 - 00:53:49.180

to Japan when I had time to travel. So, and every-every opportunity I had to take vacation, I would actually go to Hokkaido or Japan. And so I think it's again, it's that

00:53:49.260 - 00:54:06.200

draw— perhaps it was I think unconscious perhaps— but that draw of Hokkaido. That-that safe place, that safe spot. So I find myself going back there. And Hokkaido is beautiful, it's simple.

00:54:06.200 - 00:54:24.990

The people are simple. Most of them are farmers, in other seasons, and in winter they are ski coaches, so they help out at the ski resorts and hotels. The people are really lovely there. So when I started working in Japan, more time to travel there.

00:54:25.710 - 00:54:45.440

And one of the farmers I met— he was a ski coach— he suggested that I visit during the season and that's my second visit. My first visit was during spring and then I went, "Oh this is beautiful." So that's what started

00:54:46.010 - 00:55:02.880

my frequent trips to Hokkaido and that was like, 10, 11 years ago. And it was— I think it's more a choice that started when I was a child and because it's so comforting being

00:55:02.880 - 00:55:17.840

there, I just kept wanting to go back. And because there is abundant nature, you know, the four seasons, it's great for landscapes. For other trips, I

00:55:20.110 - 00:55:36.970

think after being in Hokkaido for a while, I decided then I needed to pull myself away from Hokkaido and start exploring other parts of Japan, especially after I left banking. So I went to Shiretoko and then I started going to Nagano.

00:55:37.810 - 00:55:53.110

Shiretoko is in Hokkaido as well. It's in the eastern tip of Hokkaido, where you can see whales, and the seafood is great, and you can go see bears, I think the black bear,

00:55:54.400 - 00:56:07.970

on guided tour trips. It's a bit far from Tokyo and so I first went there after I left banking when I had more time. And then

00:56:08.090 - 00:56:25.700

other places like Nagano, which is beautiful for its cherry blossoms, and Aomori. So these are some places that I started exploring over the last two, three years. As to trips overseas, I knew that I take refuge

00:56:26.790 - 00:56:44.510

in landscapes, that I am much more comfortable in landscapes than with people. I recognized that and I thought it's important to not forget, to stay in touch

00:56:44.510 - 00:56:59.200

with the world around me. So my photography mentor, Nevada, would conduct trips to places like India, Sri Lanka, and South Africa— to

00:56:59.200 - 00:57:18.690

both exotic-exotic places are, from my perspective. And I thought it was important to go on some of these trips so that I stay in touch with the rest of the world. I think reading about places

00:57:19.610 - 00:57:30.370

in— on the web or in books is a bit different from actually going to the places themselves and to see and to meet the people there. So— but on those

00:57:30.370 - 00:57:46.350

trips, I would photograph people, and I would do some landscapes as well, like when we went to Bhutan. But the purpose–the purpose of those trips is more for getting in touch with

00:57:46.410 - 00:58:01.980

people, or staying in touch with people and learning about a different culture and about the different place. But not to lose my humanity while trying to escape from it.

00:58:02.840 - 00:58:14.820

Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. And can you also talk a little bit about the studio processes? Do you edit your–your photos afterwards?

00:58:15.080 - 00:58:30.640

And how do you work? Like, how does that mental space work? Right. I do edit my images on Photoshop. When I started my mentorship with Nevada, after I

00:58:30.640 - 00:58:49.150

left banking, I decided I needed a proper mentor. So through the Santa Fe Photography Workshops, I got a mentorship with Nevada. I first met her in— I think it was 2010 when I took her workshop. And I thought that if I ever leave

00:58:49.290 - 00:59:02.570

banking and focus on photography, I would meet her regularly. And that's how it started. I think our mentorship started in—hard to remember—2004, maybe?

00:59:03.370 - 00:59:18.880

I met her quite consistently over the course of three years. I think each mentorship program was about 16 sessions each.

00:59:19.010 - 00:59:35.270

So I think it was more than three years— four or five years. And one thing that she pointed out was that my, that my images— that I need to work on my images, as in process my images.

00:59:35.670 - 00:59:56.090

Because they were not— they were a bit too bland. The reason for processing the images is the camera is unable to capture what the eye is able to capture. So the vibrant colors that I saw

00:59:56.530 - 01:00:15.660

with my own eyes are not accurately reflected by the camera. So in order to make it as close to what I saw, I needed to work on it then like on Photoshop, or Lightroom— which is another Adobe software.

01:00:16.370 - 01:00:30.980

So that's equivalent to working in the darkroom for digital files— I'm sorry, for film. And so I do have to process them, but I'm not very good at it so I get help from Mac Holbert.

01:00:31.870 - 01:00:45.160

He is who I call the guru of Photoshop. I took a course from—like with him at the Santa Fe photography workshops, as well. I think that's like my school.

01:00:47.260 - 01:01:01.530

And, obviously, that–that workshop was where I learned how to print, to — and I realized that in order to print, I need to process my images too, because the print comes out a bit differently.

01:01:03.050 - 01:01:22.100

So I'm still getting guidance, I'm still learning and having fun on processing my work, and getting Mac to help. In a way he's like my sounding board, so I do seek his opinion on like, "Oh, does this image look better than that

01:01:22.200 - 01:01:41.400

image? What do you think?" So it's nice to have someone to speak to and to take a look at my work without the emotional baggage I had. I think one thing about photography is, we need to edit our work.

01:01:41.940 - 01:01:59.560

So we might take like ten— in my case, like 10,000 images. So I would do like the first round of edit, and whittle it down to maybe like 100 images, and I'll try to cut it down again. And over time, I do find that I fall out of love with some of my

01:01:59.560 - 01:02:13.960

images. So I might end up with about, like, 50 images, but there are some repetitions. So it's important to have— if I'm unable to edit it, objectively, I would need to get someone else to help

01:02:14.020 - 01:02:28.810

me look through it and say, "Oh, this doesn't work." One thing which Nevada taught me was that I had to put away, put aside the– the emotional

01:02:28.810 - 01:02:44.430

attachment I had to the image. For example, it was like freezing cold, it was very difficult to take that image. But it shouldn't affect how I judge the image. And spending time away from the image helps because we

01:02:45.440 - 01:02:58.760

forget the hardship of the trip or like, "Oh, it was so exciting." And so the emotional element kind of subsides over time. But at the same time, if I can't pick, I need a set–set

01:03:00.670 - 01:03:22.980

of opinion, I need an independent and someone who I can trust to tell me why this image works or why that image doesn't work. So I'm still looking for guidance constantly. Um, and you're making photography works only pre-2020.

01:03:24.510 - 01:03:37.740

In past 2020, you had video works. Is that the first time you started working on this video media? Yeah, I think I started taking clips.

01:03:38.850 - 01:03:55.710

And like video clips, but what I will actually say is the technology, the advancement of technology. So, the cameras are getting better and better and the video quality is

01:03:55.780 - 01:04:08.010

getting higher and higher too. And I started off with a Canon camera, but I found that there were some issues, or maybe it was just the way I used it or my ignorance of using,

01:04:08.160 - 01:04:25.600

like, with respect to using it. But I switched to the Lumix camera because it did take— the transition between video and images became much easier. And I think there was also a realization when I was photographing images like

01:04:25.790 - 01:04:40.300

fog or the diamond dust, that it's actually difficult to imagine how it looks like. So it gives that one— photographs to me are capturing that moment but

01:04:43.310 - 01:04:58.960

it gives a different feel to the audience I think. Or it gives a different experience to the audience when they see the video, they would actually see the diamond dust moving. And I think that it's not— the essence of diamond dust is

01:04:58.960 - 01:05:10.780

not fully captured by still images. And so I thought the video would do it better justice. And that was the reason for starting on video.

01:05:11.860 - 01:05:25.500

And once I started that, I thought, "Oh, the same applies to fog, we actually don't see the fog moving, or we don't see the water moving." So I thought, "Oh, maybe I should photograph that too." Sorry, take a video of that, too, of rain.

01:05:26.760 - 01:05:44.330

We don't really see the rain. And so that's the reason for creating these videos. It's partly due to technology and partly due to what nature presented to me.

01:05:45.520 - 01:06:00.700

And there was a piece of music— I use music by Luca Longobardi for these video clips. And I realized I didn't answer your question on what I listened to what–what inspires me.

01:06:01.290 - 01:06:20.380

Luca Longobardi is a composer, an Italian composer, and he has allowed me to use his music. My mind gets really busy when I— sorry, every day. In order to calm my mind down, when I photograph,

01:06:21.540 - 01:06:39.440

I listen to music— his music especially calms me down. And so I am listening to his music while I photograph. And I thought that I could replicate that experience for my audience by accompanying the video with music.

01:06:40.590 - 01:06:54.460

And I feel that just a video on its own, for me, at least, it's a bit boring. So I thought having the music would bring— would breathe life into the video.

01:06:54.870 - 01:07:06.130

And I feel that Luca's music does that for my videos. And he has very, very kindly allowed me to use his music with the video, so I need

01:07:06.130 - 01:07:24.480

to give a shout out to him. Yeah, that's amazing. You're collaborating with other artists as well in other genres. And I'm thinking, although I know artists doesn't enjoy being labeled, but to kind of

01:07:24.480 - 01:07:42.060

associated with different kind of movements or understanding for the audience, would you like kind of recognize your art to go with anything such as, like the feminist art movement or any genre?

01:07:45.390 - 01:08:04.790

I, unfortunately, I was told to go and study art history, but I have not. No, I'm not sure what movement it would fall into. I've not come across a category but they're— someone did suggest

01:08:05.720 - 01:08:15.960

something. I would— you would need to give me a moment to look it up. I did buy the book. Can you give me one moment?

01:08:19.230 - 01:08:34.020

So I think I was–I was advised to— I'm not saying that my work falls into this category, but I was advised to take a look at pictorialism and this is a set of images where I think

01:08:37.090 - 01:08:54.800

I-I went through some portfolio reviews last year. And actually two of the reviewers suggested that I look up books on pictorialism. And, because that was when the artists would take photographs as art as well as photograph as painting.

01:08:55.370 - 01:09:11.130

I think I'm trying to— I think if there is a category, or if there is something, my objective or what I'm trying to do, I get very excited when someone tells me that my photograph looks like a painting.

01:09:11.920 - 01:09:23.970

To me, that's a huge compliment. So— or that it looks like, like a watercolor print. And I go like, "Really?!

01:09:24.320 - 01:09:36.650

Yes!" I'll be so excited when someone tells me that. And I think that comes back to my first influences: Monet, Renoir, Degas, Chagall.

01:09:38.130 - 01:09:56.330

And I first fell in love with art when I saw their work. And so maybe that's stuck with me and whenever I need inspiration, I would actually look at art. And recently I fell in love with another painter.

01:09:56.570 - 01:10:10.410

I'm going to bring it here. I have three of his books. He's a Chinese painter who's still alive and his name is Li Huayi.

01:10:10.470 - 01:10:27.730

So L-I-H-U-A-Y, H-U-A, and then Y-I. So he paints landscapes and I've seen some of his work in installations, and they look beautiful.

01:10:28.930 - 01:10:41.180

It's like Chinese watercolor but it's more than painting. So I hope to go in that direction, and perhaps that's the reason for the fog, which is

01:10:41.180 - 01:10:54.300

something more mysterious. And–and right now, I think a month ago— sorry, early June— I started looking more into water, like rushing water.

01:10:55.090 - 01:11:10.780

So that's the direction that I'm heading towards but if there's a genre, I think, trying to approximate my— trying to get that painterly feel is what I would describe my–my–my

01:11:12.690 - 01:11:24.490

work. And to me, I'm really happy when they can't really differentiate— "Is that a paint— like is that a painting or is that a photog— er, like a photograph?" So that to me, it's exciting.

01:11:28.290 - 01:11:43.630

Yeah, it's fascinating, the relationship between photography and paintings. And when you were talking about the fleeting moment that you were so, like, inspired by impressionism, that–that–that–that definitely, like, draws

01:11:43.650 - 01:12:01.030

the connection, I mean, for me, right there. Yeah. And I'm not sure if fellow photographers will be able to come at me for saying that, but I think that I remember, I saw— oh, sorry, there was another photographer that I love.

01:12:01.150 - 01:12:20.510

And his name is Goto Sumio, a Japanese painter who has a gallery in Hokkaido. And actually Kamifurano, which is the place that I go very often, and then when— and whenever I'm stuck, I would go visit his gallery and see his

01:12:20.510 - 01:12:32.400

painting for inspiration. And he has this painting where it was sunny on the left— actually was painting in China. It's sunny— not sunny.

01:12:32.560 - 01:12:48.200

It was raining on the right and then it was— the rain had stopped as he moved towards the left; and then it's sunny after the rain. So I think that's extremely beautiful and creative.

01:12:49.460 - 01:13:03.200

I'm not sure that's something that I can ever do in real life: landscape image where I have both sun and rain. I think it's possible, right? But I am looking for that moment

01:13:03.600 - 01:13:23.760

where I can combine both. But that's one limitation, I feel. There are certain things that I can't paint, but hopefully— but I think nature is so amazing so it's always presenting me surprises that I can capture. Yeah, it's

01:13:23.760 - 01:13:38.720

interesting how like, with photography, you can almost paint with, like technology, like Photoshop, it's a different type of paintbrush. Yeah, you can swap it and, like, enlarge people's muscles, make

01:13:41.160 - 01:13:56.670

them thinner. Yeah, social media power. But I was warned— not warned, but I was advised by my mentor, not to–not to step over that line for my

01:13:56.670 - 01:14:10.670

photography, at least. Because I think— because it might confuse the audience, or once the audience look at the image, they're going to start wondering, "Was that a composite image?" Which is like two or three images

01:14:10.740 - 01:14:27.620

blended together, or was it the real thing that I saw with my eyes? That was actually one of the reasons why I made the video as well. It is to show people that this exists, that the diamond dust exists.

01:14:28.250 - 01:14:45.080

Because when a lot of people look at the image, they think it was superimposed onto nature, that the bubbles were not real and that I had actually made composite— superimposed two images to create that effect. But I did not.

01:14:45.330 - 01:15:00.540

It's something that nature presented me. I was like— gave me a present. But I think a lot of people who have not seen such an amazing phenomena would not be able to imagine that to be

01:15:01.460 - 01:15:16.410

true. That said, I know that CGI and everything that's so big now, so even creating that video— the video is not evidence that it exists. It could just be CGI. I could be thought of as CGI, so I was a bit bummed.

01:15:17.410 - 01:15:34.530

So technology advancement has its positives and negatives. It just means that it's maybe harder for people to believe that such an amazing natural phenomenon like diamond dust exists.

01:15:36.090 - 01:15:53.100

So it's a stretch of the imagination, I think. Yeah, that's fascinating. And also, I want to kind of cover your whole spectrum of creativity. Could you tell us a little bit more about your early works and any kind of upcoming

01:15:53.400 - 01:16:06.160

future works? Any kind of future 5 to 10 years planned, or any next series that you're planning on? Yes, well, the next series I'm planning on— actually, let me start from the

01:16:06.160 - 01:16:18.850

beginning. So "Metamorphosis," when I look through my older photographs, I do realize that they are more like straight shots of landscapes. So in

01:16:18.910 - 01:16:34.720

that the images that remained with me, were a bit more mysterious, so less-defined. So you might not be able to see that tree over the creek. You might see the tree and say, "Oh, what's the rest?" So there is more— it's more

01:16:34.720 - 01:16:47.780

open to interpretation, I think, the later images, or the more successful images. And it's the more successful images from the past 10 years that stayed with me.

01:16:48.750 - 01:17:04.710

And the way it forms the— it gives me an indication of where I should head towards, because these are the ones that I still love, even after 10 years, and the other half, I've just like removed them.

01:17:06.030 - 01:17:23.580

I think, for my next set was— last year was fog. This year, there was less fog. Still some fog, but in a way, I'm at the mercy of nature so whatever it gives me I-I photograph when I happen to be there.

01:17:23.730 - 01:17:36.660

So these are all chance encounters. But I do find myself, like, distracted and maybe looking for it, and that was what I did last year with fog.

01:17:36.770 - 01:17:49.860

And this year, a couple of weeks ago, I felt— I traveled to Oirase. It's a gorge, it's a valley, and there is a long river by it.

01:17:51.030 - 01:18:08.500

And that was where I managed to take a lot of long exposures of the-the waves of the stream. And I think that would be the next project. I have to come up with a name for it:

01:18:10.250 - 01:18:24.030

undulations? I think it kind of reflects the current environment, too, which is COVID-19, the movement, the ups and downs that we all go through emotionally as well as what was thrown by me and nature,

01:18:24.320 - 01:18:38.850

which was the waves, the white in motion factor. So that's the direction I'm heading towards. I think, maybe the next one would be— I started printing some

01:18:39.030 - 01:18:56.270

works over the past couple of months and they were in black and white. And I really liked the impact of how it looks in black and white. Let me make a clarification here, which is I do not photograph in black and

01:18:56.270 - 01:19:07.170

white, but the images happen to be in black and white. For example like the mountains and the fog, or many of them appear

01:19:07.170 - 01:19:24.360

to be— appear to be in monotones, so I find that it's really beautiful on paper. Then maybe I would start putting together a collection or be more conscious about black and

01:19:24.830 - 01:19:42.520

white scenes in front of me and photograph them. So I did not convert from color to black and white per se, but I think I will be on a more— just look out for black and white images. For example, snow.

01:19:42.520 - 01:19:55.210

Again it's like gris, so that's quite black and white. They turn out more or less black and white. Or like fog against shadows and that brings out black and white too.

01:19:55.210 - 01:20:07.720

So I would probably head in that direction next. And how about your early works? I know like, sometimes it's— probably artists are a little bit

01:20:07.720 - 01:20:19.050

protective of their–their— Of their earlier works? No I, my early works— I think now that I'm seeing things a bit differently, I think,

01:20:19.520 - 01:20:36.640

hopefully a bit more refined. I did look through some of the earlier works to see if there are— there is anything I missed. If there is any image that I like, or that I didn't like, but I actually liked, or I liked and didn't

01:20:37.510 - 01:20:55.430

like. So there are a few images, but they’re not a lot. And I think they give me some ideas for future projects. There's one image that still stays with me in my mind. And then I have, kind of like, dug it out recently and used it

01:20:55.510 - 01:21:06.830

for the cover of my portfolio review. And so I do that. But there are very few images from my earlier work that I can show.

01:21:07.590 - 01:21:27.870

And the reason is not because of— not— it's not because of that I'm not willing or that I want to hide them. But I think they were not very good; they were not very good. Or I thought they were great and then now I

01:21:27.870 - 01:21:47.690

go, "Oh, they're not very good." So I think that's the reason for not showing those. There are some with potential, so I think I might photograph more of those type of images, but it might lead to a different direction.

01:21:47.940 - 01:22:07.580

And I hope that would be the next exciting idea. But yeah, I'm–I'm looking for ideas on how I can improve or how I can evolve. I think people might become sick if they keep seeing the same images,

01:22:08.040 - 01:22:23.960

or the same type of images, so if there's anything I'm worried about, that's how— that's whether, people will get sick of it. Unfortunately, I think I get sick of things quite easily, so probably I will get

01:22:23.960 - 01:22:37.030

bored of those images before other people do. So that should be a good— that should be a good source of inspiration. Or at least a motivator.

01:22:41.220 - 01:22:55.420

Yeah, that's super fascinating. And also I'm curious, does your work and your cultural heritage or your ethnicity— does they have any kind of interaction with one another?

01:22:57.570 - 01:23:17.040

Not yet. My work and ethnicity, I think it might influence what I like— but it doesn’t influence what I like. For example, like the watercolor, that's this artist.

01:23:19.130 - 01:23:35.740

So, but then thinking about it like Monet and Renoir. They are like, European, like Western. So, but— I would say yes and no. But I do love watercolor painting.

01:23:36.740 - 01:23:53.000

And the— like the black and white— 山水画 , so the landscape so I really love those. And I watch a lot of TV still ; and I love— and perhaps this is the cultural influence— I love watching the 武侠

01:23:53.140 - 01:24:06.610

小说 , like especially the 古代剧 which is the historical dramas, the Chinese historical dramas. And some of them are really beautiful, you know, the back—the

01:24:07.830 - 01:24:24.560

background and all that, and they would show mountains and people flying about with the kung fu, the martial arts. So, and I think a few years ago, I saw this movie that I really liked a lot in terms of— it was very

01:24:24.560 - 01:24:40.990

beautiful, like image-wise, like background and all that. The movie was okay . So I think these are still influences on my life, and I think because I'm able to speak

01:24:42.530 - 01:25:00.060

Japanese and Mandarin, it might be easier for me to travel about in these countries than it might be for me to, for example, travel in France. So I think it does influence my choices, for example, like now I'm living in Japan.

01:25:02.330 - 01:25:16.340

It's easier for me to blend in as well, so, much easier for me to blend in and hence to photograph. Because otherwise, you know, I— people would start, like looking at me.

01:25:16.970 - 01:25:31.790

I remember when I was in India, and we were photographing people, and locals would want to photograph us as well and have us in their selfies, on their phones.

01:25:31.790 - 01:25:43.750

So it might be great for people photography as a form of interaction with the culture. But for me, when it comes to nature photography, I want to be more like alone and quiet.

01:25:43.750 - 01:26:09.430

So being able to blend in with my environment, in a way, helped definitely. And I'm also curious, does sailing kind of have anything, any kind of inspiration for your art? Sailing has a huge influence, not on my art, but

01:26:10.090 - 01:26:25.010

on my person. I started sailing when I was really young and it was— and I fell in love with it because of the competition. I know a lot of people ask me, "Have you been

01:26:25.210 - 01:26:43.670

sailing recently, or have you sailed since your last competition?" And the answer is no. I know that it's great to be in the wind and it does link to nature, but for me sailing was more about competition and strategizing.

01:26:44.400 - 01:27:01.400

So the strategy aspect of it that I loved so much was probably also partly influenced by my love of historical dramas, whether it was like palace intrigue or like war and all that.

01:27:01.960 - 01:27:16.130

So there are influences, but I think it influences me more in terms of the thinking. And also competitions, participating in those we had to be very mentally tough, and

01:27:16.130 - 01:27:29.660

be able to handle setbacks and failures. But also when we win, once we win a competition, how do we sustain that mentality to win other competitions.

01:27:30.600 - 01:27:47.160

So like winning one might be easy, but winning the next one and the next one, so I think, I think that's for me. And through sailing, I got to–I got to meet a sports psychologist who has had

01:27:48.400 - 01:28:05.620

a significant influence on my life and whom I still stay in contact with and I'm eternally grateful for. He taught me to anchor. In order to win competitions, you need to have your frame of

01:28:05.650 - 01:28:24.230

mind in a certain, like to be in a positive state. So things like failures, past failures, or fear of failure, future failure, or expectations on ourselves that we impose on ourselves, can interfere with the way we perform

01:28:25.670 - 01:28:40.740

during competition. So his advice is always to anchor these past failures, or these distractions, as we would call it, expectations from people around us, as well as from

01:28:40.740 - 01:28:55.760

ourselves, and to focus on the task at hand. And so that advice, that mental toughness has come in very handy to me, throughout my entire life.

01:28:56.690 - 01:29:09.680

And being able to handle failure, but even if you get a rejection, it's okay to go ahead and work on something else. Not to be held back by past rejections or past failures, and

01:29:09.740 - 01:29:24.930

not to be distracted by expectation of the future, or what people think I should do. And I think that's really helped me. But no, not—

01:29:24.930 - 01:29:43.270

yeah, but I think it's a huge part of the influence of sailing on my life. It's also fascinating that your dad is also a sailor. Yeah, he–he was the one who made me sail.

01:29:43.620 - 01:30:00.090

But there were like two competing forces. So my dad wanted me to sail, but my mom, being a trad-traditional Chinese— although she didn't want to be traditional. She was still somewhat traditional in that she wanted me to

01:30:00.090 - 01:30:18.480

study hard and to— she didn't really like sport so she wanted me to dance ballet and play the piano. And she didn't want my skin to get dark so she was not a fan of sailing.

01:30:19.190 - 01:30:34.800

But my dad was and my dad started sailing because of his exchange program to San Jose in the States, where his host family made him sail. I'm sorry, not made him, but introduced sailing to him, and he

01:30:34.860 - 01:30:54.120

fell in love with it. And so for me when I started, my dad made me take a course when I was 7 years old, and I hated it, actually, at that time, because I was— I think I was the smallest and I was partnered— I was paired with

01:30:54.460 - 01:31:11.100

this tall, tall guy. I think he was from America but his family was in the States. And so he would have to carry me on to the boat because I couldn't climb up, so I felt very helpless.

01:31:11.680 - 01:31:23.200

And once when the boat capsized, I was stuck under and I was trying to gasp for air, so it was not a very good experience. I stopped for— but my–my parents, they are very flexible.

01:31:23.200 - 01:31:36.800

They're like, "Oh, if you want to do it, you do it. If you don't want to do it, don't do it." So— but when I was 11 years old, I went to see a competition. And it was in Thailand in Pattaya and they seemed

01:31:37.050 - 01:31:56.720

to be having so much fun, so I thought, "Okay, I'll try it." So that's what got me started on sailing and that was the sort of influence from my dad but actually, yeah. And the interesting thing was, during one of the competitions,

01:31:56.720 - 01:32:13.620

my mom— there were-there were some issues during the competition, and I was in a very bad position. And my mom was the only one who told, who had faith in me. She said, "You can do it, I know you can win this

01:32:13.830 - 01:32:27.500

competition." And so that–that surprised me. That shocked me because I always thought that she was not supportive of me sailing. So it's interesting how incidents or challenges

01:32:28.420 - 01:32:46.520

reveal a different side of ourselves, as well as our parents. Yeah, that's fascinating. And also, I'm curious, since art has been very— your work is

01:32:46.520 - 01:32:57.570

so like, beautiful and tranquil and almost timeless and it's really adore— and like, helps us admire nature. I'm also wondering, at the

01:32:57.570 - 01:33:14.120

same, is there anything that you try to use art as a language or through art to kind of protest against or confront? Is there anything that you're trying to kind of use

01:33:14.430 - 01:33:29.600

that means to speak through art as a way to rebel against this–this seems to be part of your art language at any point? I do feel that art is— transcends language borders.

01:33:30.370 - 01:33:48.260

I think recently it was— yeah, I think it does. When we look at a piece of art, for example, like of Li Huayi, even if we don't speak his language, Mandarin, we

01:33:48.680 - 01:34:04.650

can understand. And I know Chagall, his art, there was meaning to it. For me, rather than protesting or a statement

01:34:04.650 - 01:34:24.760

against something, I think for me art and nature is more a route of escape. So I think when I–when I communicate

01:34:24.810 - 01:34:49.780

with my friends, I'm— especially when I read news, like whether it's COVID, whether it's about inequality, or whether it's about discrimination, I do find myself getting very angry, right?

01:34:50.680 - 01:34:59.710

Or very, very sad. I did read about like Asians being beaten up. I've seen videos like of COVID-19.

01:35:00.770 - 01:35:15.590

I do follow, like George Floyd, and the protests in the States, and like in Asia as well. We do read about like Myanmar and all that, and some of these places are places that I've been to.

01:35:16.860 - 01:35:34.430

So I do feel intensely about it. But I think, for me, my photographs to allow me to escape from these unhappiness, these injustices that I see in life.

01:35:34.430 - 01:35:54.530

So, I wish that they can be a statement, but to be honest, I'm not sure how that they can serve as a statement of protest. With respect to the environment, I

01:35:55.650 - 01:36:08.920

just think about it, if it could be a statement of, for example, against global warming? Or can it be about against like, deforestation or like preserving our environment?

01:36:09.810 - 01:36:25.450

Could there be meaning behind it? But I find it's— I'm not sure if I can if– if– if I can do that.

01:36:25.520 - 01:36:39.870

I know a lot of photographers, when they–when they photograph, it's with that mission in mind, with that objective in mind that they go photograph. So it influences their work while they are photographing or

01:36:39.870 - 01:36:54.960

before they photograph. For me, I'm afraid it's only going to be after the fact. So I'm not sure if it would be considered genuine. And that's my very honest opinion , or I should

01:36:55.340 - 01:37:12.900

say, confession. I think art has always been a form of escape for me, so, which is why after reading all these news, I'm always very happy when I'm

01:37:13.180 - 01:37:30.240

photographing, because it gives me a breather. And— but then I know that I have to stay in touch with all these news, both for my work, as well as because I'm a human being. And so there was this, like, hustle

01:37:31.250 - 01:37:46.200

between the sadness and the–and the anger at the injustices, but at the same time trying to maintain a distance and hiding behind my art.

01:37:46.550 - 01:38:05.910

So yeah, in a way, I'm still hiding, or taking a breather, if it is, in a better way, from what's happening. Yeah, thank you for your honesty and sharing. Um, I think there's one more point, which is,

01:38:06.680 - 01:38:27.120

I think— or I hope that–that with... not sure what I was going to say . but I think I hope that, somewhat connected

01:38:27.620 - 01:38:42.500

to the previous point, which is I think you need to find a balance in life. I think sometimes there is a lot of anger, especially in social media and when, like one emotion

01:38:42.500 - 01:38:58.840

builds on another, and another emotion builds on the other. And sometimes, you know, people can be quite mean or cruel when they are writing without too much, or in their actions as well, without too

01:38:58.840 - 01:39:12.210

much thinking about the consequences on people getting hurt, as well as the impact. I think sometimes we're just caught up in the moment,

01:39:12.820 - 01:39:25.990

and perhaps trying to relieve that emotion or that anger that they feel, that fear that they feel when they see perhaps an Asian walking on the street and linking it with the pandemic.

01:39:25.990 - 01:39:43.710

I think that it's always good to have a different type of outlet, rather than through words, which can lead to good sides. In Japan, as well, when

01:39:44.100 - 01:39:57.520

especially last year, I think there were quite a few cases where attacks on social media led to loss of life, and like the actual physical attack I hope that we can all find a different outlet.

01:39:57.700 - 01:40:18.350

And hopefully like art can be that, whether we are channeling our energy, negative energy, in a different way. So I hope that the images can provide... I know that art is a luxury good, and they

01:40:18.350 - 01:40:33.020

might not make any sense or, you know, people might just think that it's only for people who have time. But I hope at least it can provide people with a sense of serenity, I hope.

01:40:34.350 - 01:40:54.230

I believe that's my— that's my far-out hope, that these images can be useful in one way or another. They do not record the injustices, or what's happening to our forests or like, the fires, but I hope it can provide

01:40:54.380 - 01:41:06.800

a different type of use. Yeah, sometimes I do reflect, and I think like, what's the purpose of my images? Do they serve a greater purpose? Do they make any sense?

01:41:06.970 - 01:41:20.750

Are they helping any-anyone in any way? And to be honest, I don't really think so , but I hope that in time to come, that it may be useful in one way

01:41:24.620 - 01:41:40.290

or another. Yeah, definitely. Not at all. Thank you so much for that's really beautiful, beautiful wish for mankind, for the future. I will also love to talk about your like teaching in Japanese languages.

01:41:40.980 - 01:41:57.320

Oh, yeah. Sure. I teach Japanese bankers English. But having a knowledge of Japanese really helps, or being aware of some of the standard issue.

01:41:58.910 - 01:42:17.680

For example, in Japan, pronunciation-wise, the— because of the alphabet construction the a is always 'a' sound, the a is always the 'a' sound. But in English, for example, we have 'uh' we

01:42:17.680 - 01:42:34.680

have 'ay' we have different sounds for 'a,' but because of the–the way it's being taught here— for example management, becomes 'management,' right? The pronunciation is different, and so being aware of knowing

01:42:34.680 - 01:42:57.000

Japanese and being aware of some of these cultural, as well as language construction differences, really helps. And I think, teaching is good for my soul. I think being able to help

01:42:57.580 - 01:43:15.910

someone improve is great. And I think I also learned a lot by seeing how someone learns and how someone progresses and so it's been actually quite fun and I think meaningful as well.

01:43:16.690 - 01:43:35.020

So it sets me in the right— in a better mind frame for photography, I think, as well. So that's–that's–that's good for me, as a person and my character That's fascinating. You're multifaceted in the photography, arts,

01:43:35.480 - 01:43:51.330

and sailing, and now like language teacher. I wonder how you have these different roles in your life? I was told by someone that having different experiences and having different interests help with photography

01:43:51.880 - 01:44:07.930

so I do hope it's true. Oh, yeah that's fascinating to hear about your story with Japanese language. And can you also talk about how Chinese language has impacted your, kind of, thinking processes?

01:44:09.800 - 01:44:30.250

Yeah, I think Chinese language, so both Mandarin and Cantonese, being able to— well, I— in Singapore, we study traditional— sorry, this simplified Chinese writing. So but— because my mom and I used to watch the

01:44:31.050 - 01:44:47.040

Hong Kong TV series a lot when I was younger, so, and she bought magazines from Hong Kong, like these gossip magazines. So I'm also familiar with the traditional Chinese, because I used to read those magazines too.

01:44:47.270 - 01:45:03.200

Not all the words, but a number of the words. And so I think being able to read these languages i-in this other language makes it easier for me to access, for example,

01:45:03.650 - 01:45:22.150

like Chinese-only reading materials and that has really helped in, for example, when I look at some works by Chinese painters that you understand in the original language what

01:45:22.690 - 01:45:39.580

their intention or what their motivations, their inspirations were. I think— and I— so I've been taking Mandarin lessons, taking Mandarin lessons again, recently, because of

01:45:39.680 - 01:45:56.300

having been based in Japan for the past 10 years, I have had very little opportunities to speak in Mandarin. I might watch movies but I don't have anyone to speak to. So, I started doing that again, and

01:45:56.540 - 01:46:11.310

with my Mandarin teacher, we came up with the Chinese equivalent names for the projects that I've come up with. And so when I posted about my gallery representation with Foto Relevance, I

01:46:11.370 - 01:46:29.750

was also able to write a paragraph in Mandarin. And I find that although I haven't used it for so long, that Mandarin language was probably the closest to expressing my emotions compared

01:46:32.740 - 01:46:41.000

with other languages. And, so that was–that was an interesting revelation for me. I was very, very surprised.

01:46:41.610 - 01:46:55.870

I thought English would be— English, which is something that I've been using most of the time, would actually do that but it was Mandarin that managed to do that for me.

01:46:57.890 - 01:47:14.470

Great, thank you. Can you also talk about how you encountered Foto Relevance and established that relationship with Houston? So I first met— well, I was in— I was actually

01:47:14.810 - 01:47:32.660

in Houston last year for Foto Fest. I think it's twice, like once every two years, festival which connects the various experts and specialists and photography in–in the

01:47:32.720 - 01:47:50.870

photography world with photographers like myself. It was my— it was supposed to be my first portfolio review. And unfortunately— well the first session went ahead, but I was signed up for the second session.

01:47:52.050 - 01:48:08.490

So I flew over to Houston on the day when the— when WHO declared COVID-19 a pandemic. And after I arrived, on the morning that it was supposed to start, the session got cancelled.

01:48:12.000 - 01:48:28.240

So I left without attending my formal review, but some of the reviewers were really kind and they stayed back to look at our work. So that was my first taste of-of a portfolio review.

01:48:28.680 - 01:48:42.230

I was supposed to meet Geoffrey last year. But unfortunately, because the session was cancelled, I didn't get to see him. During the last year, I started attending other portfolio reviews, which were all

01:48:42.620 - 01:48:56.540

moved online; and to be honest, I was very, very thankful for this online opportunity. Because if I was still— because I would not have been able to attend all these portfolio

01:48:56.580 - 01:49:10.470

reviews timewise because I do have a job here. And also it's so expensive. It's going to be very expensive to fly over each time and then pay for lodgings, accommodation, and all that.

01:49:11.490 - 01:49:26.500

So, the bright side of the pandemic, for me was the opportunity to attend these reviews online. And I really hate to do that, the bright side,

01:49:28.160 - 01:49:42.760

but I first met— so this year, Foto Fest decided to hold the postponed session in March this year for those of us who missed last year, and so I finally got to meet

01:49:43.120 - 01:49:56.450

Geoffrey this year for Foto Fest. And he looked at my work and he suggested that we speak after the portfolio review and that's what started the relationship.

01:49:58.200 - 01:50:14.260

Bryn Larson, who is the other co-owner, actually saw my work before Geoffrey did. And she saw my work on an online magazine, photography magazine, run by Elin Spring

01:50:14.760 - 01:50:24.970

and Suzanne Revy. They are the co-authors— they are the co-owners of "What will you remember," that was an online magazine.

01:50:25.400 - 01:50:41.390

And so she saw my work there because I met Elin at LACP, Los Angeles Center of Photography. So they held a portfolio review as well, last year, towards the end of last year.

01:50:41.550 - 01:50:53.980

So Elin showed my image as well as images from other participants on her website, along with those from Suzanne met. So that's how

01:50:53.980 - 01:51:08.470

all the connections came through. Looking back, I think I'm thankful that I had, like the, like— and well the flip side is, I met Geoffrey and Bryn, one year later.

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I think the positive thing is, I think I had much more time to get my thoughts together about photography, about, and be really able to prepare

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for this relationship with the gallery. So I'm still on the positive side. I'm thankful for the time. I don't think I was that prepared last year, to be honest.

01:51:42.390 - 01:51:57.290

Have you got the chance to come to Houston yourself yet? I think later this year would be possible. So first, I need to be vaccinated. Japan's rollout has been a bit slow,

01:51:57.290 - 01:52:14.070

though, but I have made an appointment. Now we have to reserve slots to be vaccinated, so hopefully, everything would go smoothly and I should be able to come to

01:52:14.100 - 01:52:30.960

Houston in November this year for the solo exhibition. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed. That's fascinating. I'm sure Houston is really looking forward to seeing your— you, yourself, and your work

01:52:30.960 - 01:52:50.090

as well. Would you be willing to leave a time capsule for us, for the future of humanity? For example, a post-apocalyptic world, if there's an alien

01:52:50.260 - 01:53:00.590

coming to find your time capsule, what would you like to tell them? Right, like if they discovered it 10 years or like 20 years from now. I would tell them that life is beautiful.

01:53:02.620 - 01:53:22.240

It's-it's a phrase that has stayed with me and it's just full of hope. And–and–and I think keeping that in mind. Yeah, I-I think that sometimes we lose hope in humanity, or in ourselves.

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And I think we keep in mind that life is beautiful, that it's big, and that we're just a small part of it. It really helps set things in perspective. Or at least it did for me.

01:53:36.950 - 01:53:53.620

I think it totally did for me so I hope it would resonate with people around me too. Well, thank you so much. That was such a treat for me to interview and document your history. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

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I appreciate this opportunity.