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Today is October 10, 2020, and we are here with Dr. Wen-Hui Shen for the Houston Asian American Archive oral history project. Thank you so much for joining us today.

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Starting off, would you like to tell us where and when you were born? I was born and raised in Taiwan, then immigrated to the United States two months before I turned 17. So could you

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describe the community you grew up in? My father was an engineer, he worked for the government his entire life. My mother was a homemaker. And I have two older siblings.

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My family was a traditional middle class family in Taiwan, very stable. So, what kind of languages do you speak at home? Mandarin. Mandarin.

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Okay. So do you have any siblings? Um, two older siblings, a brother and a sister. Okay. What kind of values did your parents emphasize during your upbringing? My parents instilled in us a strong ethics of hard work.

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They also emphasize the importance of having the right values; doing the right thing. Um, and you said you moved to the States two months before you turned to 17, right?

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So what motivated you to immigrate here? As you might know, 40-50 years ago, the educational system in Taiwan was such that a high school student, we need to choose a career path pretty

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much for the rest of our lives. As a young student, I did very well academically. But in my heart, I wanted to go to art school to become an artist.

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My parents were supportive of art as a hobby, as an extracurricular activity, but not so much as a career choice. So they thought by immigrating to the US will give me more time to mature and really figure out

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what I want to do in life. Yeah, that's great. So what was the first city you came to when you arrived at the US? I landed in Los Angeles and spent three days there. I remember my aunt, my youngest uncle,

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picked me up at the airport. My aunt then took me from the airport to my cousin's home in Pasadena, California by bus. On our way home, we stopped by Burger King, and she bought me my

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first milkshake. The following day, my- my uncle took me and my cousins to Disneyland and there I had my first taco. After three days in Los Angeles, I

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flew from Los Angeles to the east coast to join my sister and brother-in-law in Princeton, New Jersey. I attended Princeton high school, a public high school, to finish the final year and a half of my high school education.

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Cool. So how would you describe your initial perceptions of the US? I was- I didn't have any expectation of the US. So everything was new and exciting and very

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different. Okay. Um, so, like, how had the changes in your family reshaped your perspective on life in the world? I know like your family were having some problems

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at that time, so would you talk about that experience as well? Yeah, the challenge- the- I think what you're alluding to is my father, suffering a series of strokes

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just before my high school graduation. I-we got a phone call in the evening from my mother to let us know that my father had a second stroke in the hospital. We didn't even know about the first one.

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I rushed home to be with my parents after that phone call. My father was in the hospital, not able to walk, talk, eat or dress by himself. And it was very difficult watching him struggle, seeing

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him cry. My mother was a strong woman. But with all these sudden changes, there was a lot of anxiety and anguish underneath her strong facade.

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As a daughter, I felt every bit of it. Before my dad became ill, he was an administrator with a rising status in a company. So growing up, we had lots and lots of visitors, and

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some of them. my dad's business associates, visiting our home. My parents always treated everybody just like an extended family. After my dad fell ill,

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all these so-called friends- almost all these so-called friends disappeared. It was difficult for an 18 year old to- to accept this harsh reality.

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And it would take a long time for me to digest this experience. So, how did you later deal with this difficult time and come out as a stronger person?

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Well, it came in phases. In the beginning, I really didn't know how to deal with it. After I spent the summer with my parents, I came back to the US.

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By then I had already decided to go to Johns Hopkins as an undergraduate. So I entered my college life very excited, but also extremely stressed.

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And in retrospect, I think my love of learning was my saving grace, I can always find a sanctuary in the books. I also focused on specific and concrete task.

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My parents weren't wealthy. So even though my tuition was covered by scholarship, the living expense wasn't. I declared independent as soon as I could, so I

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can find my work opportunities. So I started working in the library making $3.75 an hour shelving books. And- and I guess to answer your question, phase one is I

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simply put one foot in front of the other and wasn't really able to deal with a lot of the difficult emotions. So, yeah, you mentioned you attended Johns Hopkins. So I'm wondering like, what were your areas

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of interest back then? And did you always know you want to study medicine? Oh, no, I didn't. I never wanted- I never thought that I will become a doctor.

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My father was an engineer and nobody in my family was in medicine. And I think going to Hopkins was a really a fateful turning point.

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When I applied Johns Hopkins, I was only in the United States a few months. I took SAT, after arriving in this country for four months, and applying all over the country.

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Hopkins happened to have the- the shortest application, only two pages. When I visited the campus, I loved the sun in Baltimore. It was warm and gentle.

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I love the Georgian architecture on campus. And I chose to go there. Had I not gone to Hopkins, I'm not so sure I would have gone into medicine. Um, I remember you said

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medicine chose you. So could you talk about how you ended up in Johns Hopkins seven year medical program? I went to Hopkins as a bioengineering major, later switched to

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chemical engineering. In between cases, I was working first shelving books and later washing dishes in the biophysics lab. And one day in

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the dining hall, I noticed my fellow students were talking casually but secretively. They were talking about the seven-year program.

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And that's how I found out about it. For most of the pre-med students, this was the Holy Grail. And I found myself envious of their ability to

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imagine a future. And I wanted to share their enthusiasm and their experience. So I spent $35, dropped an application.

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And I had an inter- I had an interview on a Friday with my fellow Hopkins students. And it was two faculty. The first faculty

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was from the history of science department. He asked me to design an engine. At the time I was- I was very familiar with the thermal dynamics equation of an engine.

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So I wrote that down, and I started talking to him about how there is not an engine that could be 100% efficient, because the inevitable heat loss. And I've been wondering

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how I could reduce the friction in human interaction, so I could achieve the highest potential I was given. I was said- I enjoyed this- this conversation with him so much.

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I didn't have time to put my armor back on. When the second interview, who was the faculty from pediatric neurology, start asking question, I promptly burst into tears.

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So I finished the interview with tears covering my glasses. And she asked me about my father's illness. And at that time, I had not been able to talk to anybody about the

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pain. And I was afraid that the pain would overwhelm me. That was Friday. Monday morning, seven o'clock in the morning, I got a phone call to let me know, I was one of the 14 students nationwide to have been chosen

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to enter the seven-year program. I told them, I couldn't accept this. And I was very sorry to have done this to the school.

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I was making, by then about $4.50 an hour. There's no way that I could afford medical school. I will never forget the kind voice from- from the financial office.

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The lady told me you will receive a financial aid package in a few days, we will take care of this for you. So I've felt that medicine chose me and- and I couldn't be more grateful.

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So, what about your extracurricular activities during college? I continued to draw and paint in college. There is some studio workshop on campus that's run by the faculty from University of Maryland art department.

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So I participated in that. And I also participated in many activities of the Chinese Student Associations. That's great. What would you say that there is like a defining moment

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for you during college? Hmm, there were many. Certainly getting into medical school and my interview was a- was

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a- was a- an experience I will never forget. But I also remember my college professor Dr. Greider, who was

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teaching the intro chem class. He wants to sit me down and talk to me about my natural inkling to look at a question, a situation at a very basic level.

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I was shocked. I rarely talked in class. I never sought attention. He had over 100 students in his class. For somebody who was a great teacher

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and, at the same time, pay such attention to an individual student was- was very touching for me. What was it like to be an Asian female studying medicine at a top institution at that time?

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Were there any challenges? Johns Hopkins has a very diverse student body, both racially and socioeconomically. I was 20

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when I entered medical school, and still trying to learn about America. And I found my fellow students incredibly generous and helpful whenever I needed help.

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At the same time, they were also very curious about the Asian culture. So in my experience, I didn't feel being Asian or female was a disadvantage.

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Okay. So what was your experiences- what were your- what were your experiences were like going to school in Taiwan versus that in the US? How those two education system shape you differently?

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My experience in Taiwan was- that it was very structured with a very, very specific goals for every class. Whereas in the US, although there is an overarching learning

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objective, the process, the discussion, the endpoint, were not so black and white. As I progressed, the education in the US evolve into more of an exchange rather than a top down passage

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of knowledge. There is certainly more room for independent thinking in the US. Isee. After you finished your medical school at JHU, what made you decide to pursue medical

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residency at Yale New Haven Hospital? This is what- this was another one of those fateful turning points in my life. When I was finishing medical school at Hopkins, our school was known for

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ophthalmology, medicine, surgery. Many of the top students would go into those fields. For some reason, obstetrics and gynecology was not a popular choice. So in my very young and naive

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mind, I thought if I chose to go into OB/GYN, then I could either choose to go into a clinical practice maybe in a Chinese community, or if I want to stay in academic

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medicine, the competition will not be as intense. Of course, that was not only naive, but also ridiculous. Thinking on my part, I applied residency program all over the country.

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And there was a bookkeeping miscommunication that happened. I actually missed my Yale New Haven Hospital interview. I was visiting Beth Israel Hospital in Boston.

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The following week, when I called Yale, the department Secretary told me in 20 years, nobody has ever done this to us, but they gave me a second chance. So when I visited Yale, and I was interviewed

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by three faculties. One was a PhD in the clinical department. Two of them were the private practice faculty members. Nobody was the- the famous

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academic faculties in the department. And at the eye- after the interview, the chairman, Dr. Naftilan came in. He wore a gold chain around his wrist, a bright

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red vest and- and over a pair of jeans. This is very different from the more conservative dress code at Hopkins. I absolutely loved it. It was a free and

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unconventional. At the time, the residency program was by a matching system. So I ranked Yale New Haven Hospital as my top choice.

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And- and I'm glad that they gave me a chance also. What's it like being a resident at New Haven Hospital? It was the best experience. Yale had a seamless integration between university

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faculty and faculty in private practice in the community. Clinical experiences were shared in a very respectful way, always with the patient here as the priority.

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I did residency before the regulation or limitation on the residency work hours was imposed. So there were times I practically lived in the hospital. Even though I didn't get

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to spend a whole lot of quality time at home, I had a chance to work side by side with many incredible individuals in the hospital and- and the sheer bond will stay with me forever.

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And I remember you also mentioned that patients educated you. So I'm also curious what kind of education you've received from your patients? Are there any memorable experiences?

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I remember, there was one night, one of the busiest nights that I had on labor and delivery. Within a few hours, I probably did six or seven cesarean sections. In between each c-sections, I ran up- I would

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take care of other duties. I ran upstairs at one point to evaluate a young woman with fever. I had just delivered her baby by vaginal birth a few hours ago.

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I remember sitting on the edge of her hospital bed talking to her at two o'clock in the morning. This drug addict mother was both lucid and very intelligent. She was talking to me about the danger that she had her baby will be

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in if she tried to be clean, free of drugs, in a drug infested household. I also remember this elderly cancer patients who wouldn't eat. Um, one day I managed to get her to take

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a spoonful of custard from me. And I was so proud of myself. I ran down the hall to share this with the nurses. When I tried to do this again.

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She looked at me and said, “I only ate it for you.” And then there was Mrs. L, who was a survivor of cervical cancer.

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She received a mega dose of radiation to her pelvis. She was a cure in cancer statistics but the radiation had destroyed the blood vessels in her pelvis.

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So she lived with fistulas coming everywhere. I once reached into her pelvis and dug out an infected bone. The stench of rotten human flesh was intense.

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It's difficult to be around Mrs. L for a long period of time. Valentine's Day landed on a weekend that year, I was doing morning runs by myself and I had already

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talked to Mrs. L and everything was the same status quo. In the hallway. I realized I had forgotten to wish her "Happy Valentine's Day." So I walked back into

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her room. She was surprised by my return and also very surprised by my greeting and she paused for a second. Then talk to me in the chainsmokers

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raspy voice, "Happy Birthday Dr. Shen." I was shocked. Speechless and shocked. It turns out that she

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had overheard nurses planning a surprise birthday party for me that weekend. There are so many more stories. Patients share their lives and love with me so generously.

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When I think about them these days, I still cry. Ibelieve it's very memorable experience for you. But after your residential- residency at Yale,

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you went to pursue a PhD program at UC San Francisco, so I'm wondering what motivated you to do that? I finished my residency program when I was 29, 12 years after I emigrated to the US.

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I had gotten a bachelor's degree and Doctorate of medicine degree from Johns Hopkins. I finished an OB/GYN residency from Yale New Haven Hospital.

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The natural path will be to either get a job in a clinical practice, or enter into a fellowship for subspecialty training. But something was missing for me. I felt that because my father's illness and the

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stress to survive as a young immigrant, I didn't have a typical college life as a student. I wanted to be a student again. So I took GRE and applied for graduate

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school when I was doing my chief resident year at Yale New Haven Hospital. I was fortunate enough to be able to structure a combined program, simultaneously

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finishing a fellowship program in reproductive endocrinology and infertility and, at the same time, working towards a PhD program in Biomedical Sciences at UCSF.

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I chose to work with a brand new female faculty to study how the uterus fallopian tube of vagina, the primitive structure, regress in a male fetus.

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So, in the seven years, I cloned and sequenced the gene that mediated the regression, and identified an orphan nuclear receptor that mediated this regression and is part of the gender specific developmental pathway.

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I enjoyed everything about doing research, formulating questions, designing, executing experiments, discussing results with my colleagues. It was a wonderful experience.

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Did you face any challenges back then? Yes, my thesis advisor was a brand new faculty who was under a lot of stress getting funding. So all the graduate students and postdocs were under intense pressure

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to generate data with very little guidance. My thesis advisor's philosophy at the time was that if you cannot figure something out, then you're worthless to me, and you don't belong here.

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It would take me a long time to appreciate this experience, because I came through this experience a lot more confident, a lot more independent. But this aspect of the graduate school experience was very challenging.

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Yeah, you later joined Kaiser Permanente after receiving your PhD, what led you to make that decision? I know I was in my 30s with a slew of experiences under my belt.

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I was ready to ask what really mattered to me. My connection in relationship with patients ranked very high. Joining Kaiser allowed

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me to reconnect with the patients again. But it also reflected what I was thinking at the time about the US healthcare. 20 years ago, the health care as percentage of the

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national GDP was already 20%. almost a third higher than the next developed country, which was France. I imagined that in my career, there likely will be a structural change in the

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healthcare delivery system. Kaiser being an HMO, a capitated system, just may be an alternative to the more traditional fee for service system.

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So I joined Kaiser to have a closer look and direct experience. That's wonderful. So what was their main responsibility at the- at Kaiser? In the beginning, I was given the responsibility to start a fertility

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practice in Fremont. So we started from scratch. In the first couple of years, the focus was to establish a solid clinical practice to care for

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the patients. Meanwhile, I was getting to know the administrator, and people in management and leadership. Within a very short time, I started

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talking to them to establish an IVF program. Of course, nobody believed that an IVF program in- based in HMO could even be a possibility.

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But our CEO at the time, Dr. Robbie Pearl, was a- was a visionary. He was very supportive of the fertility project. His support opened a door for me

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and that- that was just the beginning to get- to get my colleagues to buy in and contribute their time and talent to the project was extremely difficult. How did you later overcome those difficulties?

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I think in the initial phase it’s tenacity, and perseverance. And we started our first case in October 20, 2004.

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And from the very beginning, this program was a clinical success. We consistently ranked one of the top programs in the Bay Area. And of course there-

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along the way, there are also other decision making. I was very proud of that we were able to stay under the budget. As we enter into the critical recruiting phase, I read an article

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about Billy Beane, and the Oakland A's. How Billy Beane and his team analyzed the key elements to win a baseball game and recruited accordingly. He was able to take the A’s to playoffs with extremely

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low budget. So that turned on a light bulb in my mind. Technically, I know what we need to succeed. So I recruited for skill sets, rather than name recognition in our field at the time.

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Of course, many people I recruited at the time develop themselves into the movers and shakers of our field later on. By 20-, by 2007, this program has

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evolved from a proof of concept project to an expanding operation, the balance and the emphasis shifted from creativity to- to management.

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I didn't enjoy management. I didn't find it fulfilling for me. So in 2007, I stepped down, let go of my administrative responsibilities and- and I'm

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very proud to say that till this day, this program remains a huge success. Yeah. That's great. How is leading a clinical team different from doing research alone in the lab?

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How did you establish yourself as a leader during this process? Well, there are differences. There are also a lot of similarities. A key common thread is that you

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have to pay attention to details and let the data guide you. In other words, you have to be open minded to integrate new information. My biggest challenge in the beginning, was that leading a

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clinical team, I need to work with people who think and feel very differently from me. It's such an obvious and simple fact, but it eluded me in the beginning.

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I think this was in part personality, in part I came from a very hierarchical culture, in part I came from science. In science, we try to understand or

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discover the loss of nature. The one and only truth. An experiment may not work the way that I envisioned. I may get frustrated, but I would never argue with nature, how the laws

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should be changed or should be different. But when a team member held a strong and different opinion, or conclusion from mine, I get frustrated.

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And a lot of times, I wish that they would look at things a lot differently. And on occasion, I insisted that they see things my way.

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And very quickly, I learned that this was not the way to lead a clinical team. So I had to learn it the hard way over time, and I'm still learning, to extend my curiosity to the team members to understand what they think, why and

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how they come to a conclusion. I also find that leading a clinical team, humility and generosity are a lot more important.

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We have to be humble enough to know that we don't know everything, and to admit that we may have made a mistake. And it's critically important to always acknowledge people and acknowledge their contribution.

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Yeah, definitely. My next- my next question is, what was the reaction were receiving those like, thank-you cards from your former patients? Oh, I live for those moments.

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And it's- I especially liked when the parents included themselves in the photographs, because going through fertility is an experience that- that they share with me and the

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treatment, during the treatment, we shared many hours together intimate conversation. And when I see their faces, oftentimes, I'll remember what we talked about, what our

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visits were like, what they did, and- and seeing the- the baby and the end results and seeing them happy mean the world to me. Nice. So let's change gears a little bit.

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When and why did you decide to reconnect yourself with your childhood passion for art? As we talked about earlier, by 2007, the program has entered a different phase and I was looking

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for something else. I happened to be taking my mother to a live performance of one of my favorite Taiwanese singers at the time, and she

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was one of my favorite singers when I was a teenager. Her performance evoked so much memory and so much impress- e- emotion. I cried the entire time. I came home and started building a three dimensional

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model using wires and wood that I purchased from Home Depot. I did this mostly after work. I titled this piece, the current of time. The intense physicality of this

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project reminded me that I couldn't wait and shouldn't wait until I retire to pick up art again. So I voluntarily cut back my clinical practice by 20%. And I was fortunate enough to join the Wild Carrots

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workshop. And I've been doing art there once every week since 2007. Mhm. What was your artistic experience like at Wild Carrots? Before Wild Carrots, I had intermittently taken

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classes, but I would describe those earlier experience as doing art from the left brain. Early on, I did very representational work, very realistic work. That didn't really-

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that didn't really resonate with me as much later on. Wild Carrots, as a workshop, is a very right brain focused. There isn't an object, you go there, you pick up whatever

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material you want. And you do anything you want. There aren't any rules. And so I will say it's a very

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right brain approach. And it was absolutely wonderful in helping me connecting with my emotions and helping me grow that way.

00:40:20.230 - 00:40:39.090

So what did you like about painting or arts? Like, what does arts mean to you? My- my upbringing and my work life has a-

00:40:41.480 - 00:40:55.750

has a left brained dominant quality to it. And with a daily experience of focusing on analysis, I didn't really have a whole lot of chance to exercise my

00:40:55.750 - 00:41:14.630

emotional muscle. Being Asian where I was told- I was raised to try to stay in the middle ground and not to stretch to the extremes.

00:41:16.060 - 00:41:30.680

And art has given me an opportunity to not only exercise my emotional muscle, but also help me expanding my emotional horizon. And it is a way for me to

00:41:31.920 - 00:41:49.920

gain access of my emotion and understand my emotion. That's so great. What did you learn about yourself through arts? That I am

00:41:51.270 - 00:42:08.710

an emotional being to start and there- and life is a fluid process and the- the growth continues. There- there are so many new things that

00:42:09.140 - 00:42:25.790

we could discover that I didn't even know existed. So how do you identify yourself? Do you ident- identify yourself as Taiwanese American or

00:42:25.790 - 00:42:44.730

Chinese American or just American? I first and foremost identify myself as Chinese. And even though I grew up in Taiwan, I really can't

00:42:44.940 - 00:43:02.440

say that I speak Taiwanese and so I think I- I wou- probably wouldn't call myself a Taiwanese American, but I do have a strong affinity and a lifelong connection with Taiwan as an island.

00:43:04.240 - 00:43:18.190

As it’s still my home. So do you still celebrate your Chinese slash Taiwanese heritage at home or in your community nowadays? How do I stay connected?

00:43:18.740 - 00:43:33.720

Yes, like how do you celebrate your Chinese heritage? Mhm. I, um, I try to stay connected with the Chinese culture. I still consider Mandarin my primary

00:43:33.760 - 00:43:52.760

language, even though these days I use English almost 100% of the time. Do you occasionally visit Taiwan? Mhm, I do. Last time I visited was two years ago. Taiwan has changed a lot over the years.

00:43:53.920 - 00:44:07.500

But there still is a familiarity. A comfort to me. As I mentioned, I still consider Taiwan my home. And I

00:44:07.750 - 00:44:21.300

sensed an ex- I sense, you know, I sense an extreme proud when I was there. I'm very proud to be Chinese to have come from that island.

00:44:23.130 - 00:44:35.080

Yeah, that's great. I'm also wondering like, have you ever experienced any discrimination in your life or in your career? How do you counter those discrimination?

00:44:35.650 - 00:44:52.400

Mhm. That discrimination I experience has been mostly covert. And the most hurtful discrimination I experienced actually came from our

00:44:52.470 - 00:45:04.820

own kind, from other Chinese. This happened when I first came to this country, when I couldn't speak English very well, when I didn't understand the

00:45:04.820 - 00:45:23.880

American culture very well. So these days, whenever I have an opportunity, I try to reach out to Chinese who are not as fortunate as I am. I think discrimination has- a lot of

00:45:23.880 - 00:45:40.560

times has to do with ignorance and misunderstanding. For the most part, I have chosen not to engage with the discrimination directly. Instead, I focus on staying awake, alert,

00:45:41.690 - 00:45:57.760

and true to myself. Great. It seems that your life has always been full of unexpected choices like attending a seven year medical school, turning down lucrative offers pursuing PhD, leaving

00:45:58.290 - 00:46:10.520

academia and entering clinical medicine, and even later reclaiming your childhood passion for art. So would you say you are a risk taker? Or how did you manage to adapt to and thrive in a new environment?

00:46:13.210 - 00:46:26.740

I'll consider myself a person motivated by curiosity rather than a risk taker. In a way, I've lived my life more like an architect, picking up interesting

00:46:27.590 - 00:46:42.360

projects, completing it to the best of my ability, then moving on. I like waking up every morning, feeling excited about life and asking myself what new

00:46:42.500 - 00:46:56.740

things am I going to learn today? So- so that's how I live my life. It's wonderful. How have you been able to assert and establish yourself in such a competitive field?

00:47:00.320 - 00:47:18.230

I think that in the beginning, of course, you- the focus was on intelligence and how fast or how

00:47:18.230 - 00:47:33.730

well, you can grasp the material process and present it. Later on, I think that people recognized different attributes such as tenacity.

00:47:35.450 - 00:47:53.870

When I pick up a project, I very rarely will give up no matter how difficult and they also recognize that I am curious. And with curious, I'm always looking to

00:47:53.980 - 00:48:06.540

learn and improve myself. So I think these qualities over time, helped me navigate through these very competitive field.

00:48:08.860 - 00:48:19.230

That's wonderful. Reflecting- reflecting on the decisions you've made in life. So was there anything you want to redo or not do at all?

00:48:19.490 - 00:48:37.950

Do you have any regrets? There are certainly situations or things that I wish I had handled it differently, because I know that I could do it better.

00:48:40.220 - 00:48:57.070

But in terms of major decisions, I wouldn't even want to change any of that. And regrets? For me, regrets happen when I didn't follow my inner

00:48:57.070 - 00:49:12.250

voice. And that really hasn't happened in my life. That's great. You mentioned that you live like an arch- architect. So we just say you're a goal

00:49:12.250 - 00:49:27.290

oriented person, how did you keep yourself on track with your goals and not deviate? Oprah once said that you want to drive your own bus, otherwise life drives you.

00:49:28.780 - 00:49:44.810

I always have a sense of where I wanted to go. But I know that if I could define the goals, then they're probably not big enough. I think this is especially true for your

00:49:45.110 - 00:50:03.820

generation. Your parents may be more comfortable within their specific career goals such as becoming a physician, a lawyer, an engineer. But with the advances in internet and entrepreneurship, there is a future in our

00:50:03.820 - 00:50:18.930

imagination that doesn't exist yet. I think having goals help us to get started in certain direction, then I think that it's our responsibility to allow the-

00:50:19.370 - 00:50:34.540

the goals to grow and expand organically. So what about your weakness and how have you been able to navigate through your weaknesses or to become a stronger person?

00:50:35.520 - 00:50:47.890

Hm. It's challenging. Um, I have a tendency to jump to conclusions very quickly. I think this is in

00:50:47.890 - 00:51:11.370

part, my personality, but also jumping to a correct and an accurate conclusion about a situation could be an asset, when you are trying to

00:51:11.370 - 00:51:29.800

be extremely efficient, which has happened in my life multiple times. And so the drive for efficiency also- also fed into this natural tendency that I really

00:51:30.280 - 00:51:46.830

consider a weakness. And on top of that, having a quick assessment of the situation is critical for survival. And in my life, like

00:51:46.930 - 00:52:07.800

and- like many others, we've had to struggle to survive and so that- there is also another important factor that led to- that fed into this weakness.

00:52:09.650 - 00:52:24.040

I work on it every single day. Every single day. And- and acknowledging that my personality, may be more- has a tendency to jump to conclusion

00:52:26.070 - 00:52:37.810

and accepting that. But at the same time, really slowing myself down. I don't always have to be so efficient. I could give myself more time.

00:52:37.810 - 00:52:51.930

And, and working on the fear, you know, survival is a- is a fear based emotion. And- and really, through meditation and in- in

00:52:51.930 - 00:53:09.510

focusing on the present moment, rather than allowing the past influence me have been how I try to overcome this weakness. Isee. You once said that life is

00:53:09.820 - 00:53:22.080

constantly changing, and the end is unknowable. So what do you think the most important traits are to cope with the uncertainties in life and turn a crisis into opportunities? Mhm.

00:53:24.830 - 00:53:41.150

Malcolm Gladwell talked about this. He talked about perceiving life either as a puzzle or as a mystery. And when we approach a life as a

00:53:41.530 - 00:53:55.110

puzzle, we tend to find solutions and answers as a way forward. This is a linear approach that works in a simple system.

00:53:55.840 - 00:54:11.710

When the world is not as complex. the society more homogeneous, and most people share an established set of values. Living life as a puzzle worked.

00:54:12.710 - 00:54:27.950

But these days, the world is becoming more complex, the society is diverse, and many people don't share the same values anymore and life has become a mystery. Every day we step out into

00:54:27.950 - 00:54:50.900

the world with more unknown variables than known variables. The qualities in my life that- that helped me navigate in- with these two approaches are different. Intelligence, we talked about before, worked

00:54:51.030 - 00:55:07.690

great when we look at life as a puzzle. Intelligence helps us to solve the puzzle faster, whereas tenacity and open mindedness are more important, in my opinion, when we navigate through life with a lot of

00:55:08.420 - 00:55:21.730

unknowns. And how do we deal with all this uncertainties that I think? We start with a right perception. Life probably has always been more like a mystery.

00:55:23.920 - 00:55:39.470

And we should expect uncertainties. I think with this proper mental preparation, we're less likely to descend into debilitating crisis. We talked earlier

00:55:39.470 - 00:55:58.190

about my educational experience in Taiwan versus the US. My experience in Taiwan is that education is more of a linear trajectory, linear exercise. Repetition in simple system, provided

00:55:59.070 - 00:56:21.040

me with a great foundation, but as I get older, navigating through life, I've had to build on this foundation, expanding my view of life more as a mystery. Isee. My next question is about model minority

00:56:21.760 - 00:56:32.150

myth of Asian Americans. Like, in your case, you've clearly excelled at everything you've done and rightfully enjoy the fruits of your hard work and intelligence.

00:56:32.200 - 00:56:49.900

So I'm wondering like, what do you think of the expectations that Asians should always excel? And what happens if they don't? Mm. This is a subject very dear to my heart. I learned a few years ago that Asian students

00:56:51.410 - 00:57:09.660

commit suicide at a much higher rate compared to other races. The author suggested a connection between the high expectation for academic success and the high

00:57:10.460 - 00:57:29.920

suicide rate. This was deeply disturbing to me. I think it's natural for parents to have expectations of their children, but perhaps our definition of success is too narrow and limited.

00:57:31.160 - 00:57:47.400

Not everybody could be a Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, but that shouldn't diminish our worth, or our place in the world. Martin Luther King once said that

00:57:47.630 - 00:58:06.420

not everybody could be famous, but everybody could be great because greatness is defined by a service. In my life, I have accumulated degrees and titles. But ultimately, my connection with patients and

00:58:06.690 - 00:58:24.430

my relationship with my colleagues working side by side towards taking care of another human being, advocating for another human being, has proven to be more

00:58:24.650 - 00:58:39.670

endearing and enduring. Um, again, I like to switch the gears a little bit. The next section will be focusing on their recent COVID-19 pandemic.

00:58:40.200 - 00:59:00.390

I'm wondering, how has your work or daily life been affected by the pandemic? As an infertility physician, I don't come into direct contact with the COVID-19 patients. But I personally might have had a case of COVID-19.

00:59:02.410 - 00:59:16.300

It happened in December on a trip back from Miami to San Francisco. I developed high fever, , loss of taste, dehydration, that landed me in the

00:59:16.300 - 00:59:29.080

emergency room. So I feel a direct connection with all the patients suffer from COVID-19. I am also so

00:59:29.080 - 00:59:44.130

touched and inspired by all the health care providers and essential workers who put their lives on the line to take care of others. I found myself asking what can I do to contribute

00:59:45.420 - 01:00:02.500

positively to our communities? This question has been on my mind a lot. Have you ever done something in response to the outbreak yet? Mhm. Um, when the-

01:00:03.810 - 01:00:18.750

the PP was in critical shortage in New York, I connected with a two physicians on the east coast and-and work with my colleagues here and started gathering the N-95 masks

01:00:18.750 - 01:00:33.830

that everybody has or wanting to purchase, and ship them to New York to help people there. Every little bit counts. Yeah. Definitely. How do you think the COVID-19

01:00:34.700 - 01:00:49.520

disrupted a world order and exposed fault lines in our societies? We all know that COVID-19 affected the minority communities and disadvantaged population,

01:00:50.110 - 01:01:04.920

disproportionately. Pre-existing social conditions contributed to this vulnerability. For decades we have not addressed these issues with the necessary urgency and priority.

01:01:06.040 - 01:01:23.220

This is a social fault line. In addition, COVID-19 also expose inadequate government response. There is a political and bureaucratic fault line. Caroline Myss, who is a spiritual

01:01:23.840 - 01:01:38.790

teacher, talked about transformation involving three phases, revolution, involution, and evolution. COVID-19 certainly is a revolutionary event disrupted the

01:01:38.890 - 01:01:54.790

old and existing system. Everyone of us need to introspect. And- and figure out how we're going to regroup and rebuild.

01:01:56.150 - 01:02:14.720

Mhm. Yea. What did you learn about yourself during the pandemic? Oh, I learned that how vulnerable all of us are. I was very surprised how sick I got.

01:02:16.330 - 01:02:27.250

I have not felt that sick before. And being so vulnerable was- was not something that I was terribly comfortable with.

01:02:29.210 - 01:02:47.030

And I also learned how much social interaction we need to really thrive as human being. And I think many people, including myself, are finding the

01:02:47.160 - 01:03:01.270

quarantine very challenging. And- and I think COVID-19 really acutely brought to my awareness that we live in a collective whole.

01:03:02.130 - 01:03:19.480

And- and I think their message is so big, that I'm still processing. How do you think the COVID-19 and your recent protests against racial injustice have impacted

01:03:19.630 - 01:03:32.650

Asian American communities? Like have the COVID-19 and recent protests change your perspective about a future of the race in the US? Mhm. I'm deeply saddened

01:03:33.000 - 01:03:52.900

the- that there- there was and probably still is a rise in violent acts and assault against Asian Americans. We have been a model minority and,

01:03:52.960 - 01:04:11.240

generally speaking, we- we have not been singled out as targets based on my experience. And I think that this COVID-19

01:04:11.470 - 01:04:30.470

and the- the racial tension brought to every one of us the- the - the unfortunate awareness that- that when- when life changes, when situation changes, and

01:04:33.120 - 01:04:46.350

nobody is really safe. Nobody is really safe. My personal view of the racial tension is that it has a lot to do with the

01:04:46.380 - 01:05:02.280

power dynamics. The western countries enjoy centuries of dominance in the world. And this century old dominance has evolved into a dominance

01:05:02.600 - 01:05:19.940

and perhaps a perceived superiority of the white race. Slavery, certainly is a very sad and unfortunate consequence to this power, dominance and inequality, I think to

01:05:19.940 - 01:05:36.070

fundamentally address systemic racism doesn't matter whether it's African American, Hispanic, or Asian, or White. We have to address the power inequality.

01:05:36.460 - 01:05:50.450

To really empower all races, I think we have to go deeper. We have to address our own insecurity because power is alluring because it makes us feel

01:05:50.450 - 01:06:05.570

safe, secure and in control. Until we really live with the concept that we are all in this together.

01:06:05.900 - 01:06:26.950

We are- everyone is an individual of a whole. I don't- I think I will continue to struggle about the racial issues. Could you share your views on the future of hospitals and clinics in the US

01:06:27.150 - 01:06:44.800

post COVID-19? It's my opinion that the United States has the most events by medical research and an ability to deliver the most sophisticated health care, but we have challenges.

01:06:46.350 - 01:07:01.930

We spend more on health care, and many of our fellow citizens do not have or cannot afford health insurance. We mentioned we talked about earlier that I think a structural change in the healthcare

01:07:01.970 - 01:07:16.970

delivery system is likely. And 20 years ago, I joined Kaiser to look at an integrated and capitated system as an alternative to the fee for service

01:07:16.970 - 01:07:33.320

system. And these days, many are looking at similar models as a solution nationwide. So I think that we should prepare ourselves for some changes.

01:07:33.880 - 01:07:50.880

And hopefully the new system will be more just and deliver care equally to all the vulnerable populations. And I think, importantly, we need to devote more

01:07:51.190 - 01:08:08.340

resources to direct patient care rather than the Business and Administration and Management part of the operation. And- and I think that we need to figure out a way to empower the staff who are working

01:08:09.000 - 01:08:25.200

directly with patients, because it's my belief that people working in the trenches could come up with solutions most efficiently. Absolutely. How do you think we could come out of this pandemic

01:08:25.200 - 01:08:43.970

stronger as a community? I think that recognize that we are part of a whole, we're a part of one and- and really not be

01:08:43.970 - 01:09:01.370

satisfied staying in our own little silo, but reaching out. And that's why I think what the Chao Center is doing is so timely and important. By encouraging people to share our stories, we

01:09:02.110 - 01:09:16.450

create space for everyone. We create space for everyone to- to have a voice to move the society forward. Thank you for saying that.

01:09:16.550 - 01:09:27.050

What are your future goals? Is there anything you'd like to try but you haven't gotten a chance yet? Um I'll probably retire from medicine soon.

01:09:28.240 - 01:09:42.880

Retirement is a personal transition. So far I've lived a goal oriented life. So one of the- one of the-

01:09:48.920 - 01:10:04.810

one of the quote unquote goals is that I don't want to have any goals. And- and I also have worked in a corporate life for many years. In corporate life you trade in

01:10:05.170 - 01:10:15.950

personal freedom for security. And in retirement, I’d like to reverse that. I’d like to trade in some of the security for personal freedom.

01:10:18.740 - 01:10:30.190

I'm curious what I would discover, when I reverse the priority and approach to life. Something will happen I think.

01:10:30.560 - 01:10:47.910

Mhm. Yeah. So if you are asked to provide advice to younger Asian females on how to succeed in medicine, what would your advice be? I think- let's take that

01:10:48.000 - 01:11:02.280

apart a little bit. I think Asians, we have to recognize we have a unique culture and that gives us a unique perspective on things and we can make unique contribution.

01:11:04.260 - 01:11:16.830

And female. I think it's important for us to recognize that we are female. We're proud of being female. We don't need to act like other men.

01:11:17.780 - 01:11:37.500

And so, once again, holding onto who we are, and- and treasured what we have as- as a first step forward. And after we're comfortable in our own skin, it doesn't really

01:11:37.500 - 01:11:51.800

matter whether you're an Asian female or Caucasian male. I will say that- I will say my advice to everyone is the same: medicine is changing.

01:11:52.230 - 01:12:08.280

It's becoming more corporate. So if you're somebody who really enjoys being with patients, or people in their most vulnerable state, medicine will continue to be an extremely

01:12:09.050 - 01:12:24.970

rewarding career path. It's worth our time and energy. But because it's going to be more corporate, I imagine younger generation physicians will have less freedom than I

01:12:24.970 - 01:12:38.950

had. Your day to day life, work life, will be more regimented. Financially, I think your income will be stable, but not as lucrative.

01:12:42.190 - 01:13:00.090

We have to be ready for uncertainties and change if you enter into medicine, and which links to something we talked about earlier. There are- there’re many brilliant and bright and creative physicians that I

01:13:00.090 - 01:13:19.020

have worked with, interacted with over the years who are eager to initiate changes. My advice to people who wanted to bring changes to medicine, is that maybe take a

01:13:19.100 - 01:13:31.290

step back, let the changes come to you then participate wholeheartedly. This is such a wonderful advice. I guess these are my questions for today.

01:13:31.290 - 01:13:39.300

Is there anything else that you'd like to add that haven't touched upon? No, Kelly! I love your questions.

01:13:39.300 - 01:13:49.550

And I enjoy talking with you. Thank you so much. Okay, actually, there's one- like- another question, just out of my personal curiosity. It’s not on the original interview.

01:13:50.410 - 01:14:03.530

So I- I don't know, if you'd like to answer, feel free to not answer. Okay, so based on what I've heard from my colleagues at the Archive, they mentioned that you're single and at the same time, I know you also work in

01:14:03.530 - 01:14:16.620

the fertility industries. I'm wondering like, what do you think of the social expectation that women should get married and have children? I would also take that apart a little bit.

01:14:17.840 - 01:14:39.330

I think that having children is an innate desire that some people have. Not everybody have the desire to have children. And so if you have the desire to have children, I think it's a calling and you're meant to be

01:14:40.000 - 01:14:56.220

a mother or a father. And I would say that that's what you should do. And it's not so much an expectation. And children are gifts from God, you know.

01:14:56.220 - 01:15:11.930

Why I use God loosely? It's- i certainly don't have any religious affiliation. And- and it's a- it's an awesome blessing and responsibility.

01:15:13.130 - 01:15:31.790

In terms of whether you need to get married to have children, certainly in my prac- my practice my patients have educated me. I will say, my answer is no. I've worked with many women in different social

01:15:32.230 - 01:15:51.380

situations. And I watched them going through the process and becoming amazing mother. So I don't really feel that women should feel the pressure of having to

01:15:51.380 - 01:16:05.290

get married and have children. It is a calling. And you have to find out if- if- if that's for you. Yeah. Thank you so much for answering this question.

01:16:06.020 - 01:16:12.580

Yeah. That's all. Thank you again for your time today. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you. Bye.