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All right, thanks. Um I'm here with uh Mr um Chen. Um And this is the oral history interview at library um on Houston, Texas March the 10th 2011. Um It's, this interview is conducted by Willie Xu for the Houston Asian American Archives at the Woodson Research

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Center. So, uh thank you um uh Mr Chen for being here. Um What we definitely like to find out about your experience um coming to the United States. And so first, I'd like to talk a little about um what were you um uh like before you

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came to the United States, your pre immigration experiences. Um Now, from the information that you filled out, um I see that you've moved around a lot in China and you grew up in a time in China that um I, I imagine my parents tell me that

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um there were, it was kind of a chaotic era. Would, would that be a good way to describe the time? Well, any uh any person to pay some attention and especially my generation or the Chinese and uh even including your generation and uh you know, ever

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since the 18 40 the wars, China being subject to a lot of chaotic uh miss habits. And uh both the uh my parents uh they were in the, in the, in the I say, in the early nineties and 19th centuries. Yeah, they were uh studied in

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Beijing and uh uh indirectly involved with the revolution. And just about every uh Chinese have that experience, you're talking about the Qinghai revolution or the Qinghai revolution. Uh After that, after that, yeah, it turned out the 1911 and to 1949 that's a quite a few years

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there. That's a few years, China was uh uh really chaotic. There's no government per se, you know, nobody really ruled the whole thing. So the uh in addition to the Japanese and the, you know, so uh what was it like in 1935 when, when you grew

00:02:41.460 - 00:03:06.399

up in Beijing in 1935 I was born in Beijing. And uh and uh that was uh uh as I said, a revolution time and uh both my parents involved and uh but uh uh pretty soon the, and uh the Japanese uh uh take the northeast. We

00:03:06.410 - 00:03:36.649

we, we were northeast so they have to give up and go back because no money, no financial support anymore. And uh uh so we were went back, I I stayed only in Beijing two years. And uh uh later on, my father went to uh about 50

00:03:36.660 - 00:04:02.690

kilometers from and uh he was uh uh by training and uh in agriculture and become a teacher in a uh agriculture professor is a professional, it's a, it's a vocational school. It's equivalent to high school. And what year was this? That was, uh that should be,

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should be somewhere in the late thirties, you know, in the late thirties. And uh uh but anyway, uh uh but uh ever since the Japanese started the war on China, uh I should encourage the Chinese to really have a deep thinking, you know, and uh we

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should stop our own fight and uh united against the foreigners and rather than keep killing myself. And uh therefore, uh you know, at that time, of course, two centers, one in and was just would not want to cooperate. Well, whoever was uh uh I mean, all,

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all the other area, you know, the, we were literally in the Japanese occupied area and anybody with some sense with some uh hello, responsibility or uh uh awareness uh and then they trying to uh uh then cooperative to begin with and then trying to uh either

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you can go to or you can go to. Uh but that's a roughly speaking. And uh so the, my father's school uh literally, I think from uh 35 36 37 to 40 to 1940 about 34 years, literally depleted, you know, the people, the student, the teacher

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and the just the run away, you know, away from the uh from the, from the Japanese that the puppet state, you know. So my father went away first I remembered every night and uh you know, under the top, listen to the radio, you know, broadcasting from

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anywhere or, or what? Oh, so you covered yourself? So that no one else could hear what you're listening to the Japanese. They don't want you to do that, you know. But anyway, so they're a school, started the people disappear, you know, running that. So my dad

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went too. So, but anyway, he went to Shanghai and uh before all of us and he, he was to stay there and waiting for us to meet him and, and then decide where to go. You know, why didn't you go with your father? You cannot, you

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know, that's uh the Japanese control you're not allowed to. So it was your mother in, in New York. What did you have uh your other other siblings there at the time? We have a four. But anyway, 1940. Yeah, finally he, he was in Shanghai and then

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we decided to, we are going to Shanghai. Yeah. And it took a long time. You kind of getting out of the country, you know, you need a permit and this and that and very difficult getting out of man. Really. I, I'm surprised that they allowed people

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to actually move out of the country since they were fighting, weren't they? Is northeast? Only, only that part. Yeah. And that part of course they controlled and yet you, oh, the Japanese still control Shanghai at the time later, you know, they, they control the Shanghai, but

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in reality, Japanese never really totally control the China. Right. Of course, they only controlled up to, you know, Beijing and then got a few points. They control the cities. Right. Right. Well, cities, the countryside was very right. Even in the city they are not really totally

00:08:15.440 - 00:08:39.859

controlled. And uh why we, why I say that because later, so we are 1940 we went to uh went to uh uh from uh and uh went to, and she uh boarding a, a liner and ocean liner and then we already departed, uh you know, five

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minutes later, come back again because the uh Pearl Harbor. Oh, ok. So this is 1941. This is on Pearl Harbor happened. The Japanese are inviting the, you know, so they declared a war. So the World War Two started and uh and so we have to go

00:09:03.080 - 00:09:22.799

back, you know, deboard our gang and, and you know, and uh and then find other ways. Yeah, it's a difficulty. But anyway, they kind of like a and you got to, you moved to Shanghai eventually you got to. So this time it was your, was your

00:09:22.809 - 00:09:44.059

mother and, and you and your sibling, we all we all together and then in Shanghai and then, ok, you cannot move anymore, you know, too many people and difficult. You cannot go to the, uh, the, the, that time when the, the, uh, the, uh, the communist

00:09:44.070 - 00:10:21.859

actually is. So, so if, you know, the communist society actually have a wife is much bigger, you know, but the city wise is not in the city, you know. But anyway, uh, because of the, my father's teaching at the school and the students all

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come out. So, in a way we, in Shanghai our family becomes a center, a reception center for all those students. Oh, really? OK. And uh those, those students and boy, they, I, I vividly remember all this and quite a few. Do you remember what the school

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was called? It was like a, a school. Agriculture. I was there, I was there in 1980 84. Yeah, I went down to, to take a look because I still vividly remember later there. Yeah. But anyway uh that was uh and then we in Shanghai in Shanghai

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uh uh we all very, very poor and a pretty hard life and yet so many students coming. What did you do in Shanghai? Where were you studying? You still went to school? You know, that's uh elementary school. Yeah. And what did your parents do in Shanghai?

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All kind of other jobs? Yeah. And uh but anyway, we survived and relatively speaking because the uh lots of in, I saw so many in, in Shanghai, the alleys and you know, my back door, the back door outside is the, is the big trash can trash

00:12:04.065 - 00:12:25.070

every winter, you know, in the winter time in the morning you open up the back door and see infant, you know, diet, uh, kid, I just dump it in there. So I saw the very sad things in the very, and all those students too, they come

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to our place. We don't have that much money, that food, you know, which is super, you know, and, but is a center here and because they are after the teacher and so all those patriotic uh ideas and thinking and talk about and that's why I grew

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up in that kind of environment. I mean, patriotic as in like towards China and Chinese right now, your parents for it, not a, it's not a super kitchen or per se that just, just because we, we have a, a roof, ok. We have a place so

00:13:16.809 - 00:13:34.809

they come along, you know, and uh all kind of around you, I can go detail and then we can finish this all the time. But uh but anyway, uh in, in, in our place becomes a center sort of like, uh and then later on during this

00:13:34.820 - 00:13:53.960

uh right before the 49 and those students, they couldn't stay there as a refugee for long, you know, what did they do? They are all the high school age. So a lot of them went back across the Yangtze river and went to, they all joined the

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army. They join the army, you know. And, uh, you know, when, after, after the Japanese left before, no, even before. Oh, yeah, because of the guerrillas activities. Oh. So, even though that I see in other words, there is no clear line. Where is the fire line?

00:14:12.440 - 00:14:36.950

Ok. You know, and, uh, you know, so they went back and, uh, and the, the other ones couldn't do that far away. Don't, or don't dare to. Ok. that, uh, the Japanese set up a popular government too. Right. And so they set up, they have a

00:14:36.960 - 00:14:56.909

navy school. Lots of them are there just for the, you were? Ok. Right. Yeah. Just, just so you can have something. Right? Ok. That's all. And so all these things, it's so vivid in my mind and I watch it at home. And how old were you?

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You were a boy at this time? There was a, you know, my elementary school years, six years from 41 to 47 40 48 48 when we went to Taiwan. Yeah. Now, you said you went to Taiwan? Was that because the, the, the Shanghai was being because

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of that. We, we left Shanghai earlier. Why? Because, hey, to begin with, you are the northerners in the south. That's already a odd, right. Yeah. You don't have a friend, don't have connection. It's hard to understand. Yeah. You know, but in here now that when you

00:15:42.289 - 00:16:00.640

grow up here you don't feel that nothing OK. But in that time, that is hard. So we have no roots, no nothing. And then in, in Shanghai, what are you gonna do? And then OK, the Japanese surrendered and uh OK, the Taiwan coming back, Taiwan is

00:16:00.650 - 00:16:41.989

opportunity. So those in the navies, they all come out, they all turned into the uh custom like kind of like a coast guard. But it's a, it's a embargo. This is a specific type of good, any kind of a good at that time, any kind of

00:16:42.000 - 00:17:04.380

a good, don't allow it. But yet you do it, this is a kind of smuggling, smuggling. Ok. The anti smuggling unit unit. Right. Right. So they had, along the coast there are some weapons too, you know, so this whole, quite a few of those students that

00:17:04.390 - 00:17:26.400

join that one. And, uh, and, uh, as I say that some of them went back there. But anyway, um, uh, yes, the Japanese surrendered and know what they going to do still is a problem. Right. I mean, Shanghai and the should come back, uh, you know,

00:17:26.410 - 00:17:43.560

with Americans help and this and that, but the Civil War started, uh, you know, you know, so you still, you have a home? Yes, you never can go back. You know. What are you gonna do? So, you need to find opportunities. Yeah, Taiwan just come back

00:17:43.569 - 00:18:03.310

and the brand new sort of. And so, uh, my, my grandfather then they have a, they making the cigarettes, you know, they make the cigarettes and so they try to set up a plan making the cigarette paper, you know, in Taiwan now they send my father

00:18:03.319 - 00:18:27.060

to Taiwan to handle that whole thing. Yeah. And why, why send him, because he knows Japanese, you know, he was teaching in the school for four years. He knows Japanese and Taiwan and speak Japanese. They were right. And Taiwan has a timbers, lots of wool. That's

00:18:27.069 - 00:18:48.209

a park. So your grandfather sent your father to, my grandfather is a business man. He is, you know, that, that, that, that story too long. But he deal with Russians, he deal with the British and the Americans and the, you know, in, in cigarette cigarette trade

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and then eventually they, they, they make the uh yeah, cigarette manufactured in China. And at the beginning, just the agent for the, for the foreign tobacco company later on they manufacture and 50% of that enterprise actually is Hong tobacco. Ok. If you, you from China, your

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father must know there. Oh, ok. Right. Ok. Yeah. So anyway, that's uh that's my and in you, right. Um So just to step outside, we would like to have most of the interview be in English um so that

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we can uh transcribe and so that, and so that everyone can read. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a, you know, but if you, if you don't, if you want to use Chinese at a certain point because you feel you don't know how to say it

00:20:20.579 - 00:20:40.300

in English or you feel it's better clear in Chinese, then II I can try to translate it. And so we're gonna do a mix here and I, I understand what, OK. But anyway, uh uh so we went to Taiwan. It's not because the political upheavals, we,

00:20:40.310 - 00:21:05.380

all, my family has nothing to do with the government. And uh the most uh was, is a business and, uh, but, you know, uh uh went to Taiwan. That's a totally new world, you know. And uh so uh uh we in Taiwan and uh I started,

00:21:05.390 - 00:21:30.079

uh you know, the, the, the uh middle school and uh you know, high school and college, we were in Taipei. Yeah. And uh so later on, of course, in 49 a whole bunch of coming totally the migrated to Taiwan about 2 million. OK. The people who

00:21:30.089 - 00:21:54.260

were escaping from the communists and the Taiwan at that time originally have about 4 million people. And then all of a sudden added the two become 6 million, you know, and uh uh to this days, of course, the Taiwan talk about 23 million. OK. And uh

00:21:54.880 - 00:22:21.500

the uh so called the, we were, the part doesn't matter, you have a connection with the government or not, you know, the local people always against the foreign, foreigner or the, the outsider, you know. So the, that antagonism later on, especially because the played it very

00:22:21.510 - 00:22:45.589

unfairly in practice and, and therefore hurt the feelings so to speak. Right. And that's why until today, even, you know, I know there are some incidents after the took power in Taiwan until, until this day still, you know, independent and this and that, and why is

00:22:45.599 - 00:23:10.400

it because they were mistreated at the beginning? That's all it is. I see. But on the other hand, the outside all the way like us, uh we never really treated Taiwan as our home, right? Because you from outside, you're coming there, right? And then the early

00:23:10.410 - 00:23:37.010

sixties, you know, later fifties and uh Taiwan become stabilized a little bit. And uh the only choice for any ambitious young man is to going out, out of, out of Taiwan. Yeah, but you can't go back to China, you know, where are you gonna go? You

00:23:37.020 - 00:23:55.599

know, go to the States? I see. So you came to Taiwan because for economic reasons and your family not, not even finding opportunities to survive. And did your mother and your other siblings also go with you? OK. So your whole family did go to Taiwan and

00:23:56.060 - 00:24:14.290

yeah, so you say when you went there, you just, you eventually you discovered that it's not a me discover that generations of the situation. You know, Taiwan is so small. What are you gonna do? You have a minority 2 million trying to control the 4 million

00:24:14.300 - 00:24:41.569

and then total the 6 million and the opportunity is limited. So even the government promoting this, starting from the late fifties, every year, we have AAA general test culture to go study abroad, to study abroad. OK. That's all the college graduates. OK? You first you have

00:24:41.579 - 00:25:00.949

to finish your military service. We all finished the 18 months military service. Which college did you go to? What did you study in Taiwan, in Taiwan? You know, and then that's the only way, you know, so when you say, you know, you're migrating here, we are

00:25:00.959 - 00:25:24.489

not really migrant, we come here to study, you know, but as I say that we, the group don't consider Taiwan as a, as a whole. And therefore if you study here and then you graduated, you got a degree, you know, us at the early sixties, America

00:25:24.500 - 00:25:47.319

is expanding, you know, there's a lot of opportunities and so as long as you have a local degree, the US want you to stay. Mhm. Ok. So we are very, very easily, you know, stay here and you know, we go back to go back to where,

00:25:47.670 - 00:26:02.489

you know, we have nowhere to go. So what was the process of coming to the U like for you? Um where you said that you came here on a student visa, right? And so how, how was, how hard was it to try to get to the

00:26:02.500 - 00:26:28.150

US at that time in that environment, applying for the visa? And that's now you're thinking back. Yes, a lot of competition now. That's interesting because I, I imagine maybe when, during, during your time as an immigrant, you know, um that was the time when the United

00:26:28.160 - 00:26:41.500

States there was not this type of cultural dialogue. I don't know how you were received in your society or how you felt you were received, you know, did you have, did you were able to, did you have friends who were Americans? Um you know, when in

00:26:41.510 - 00:27:08.900

the early years, uh what was your life on campus? You know? OK. One reason I left the L A in a, in a, in a US C University of Southern California. The Chinese, you cannot date a white, they don't go, but in the south they play

00:27:08.910 - 00:27:26.469

with us in the party together. We have no problem. OK. I, I was surprised because I would think that in the south they have a bigger problem, right? You should have a other way. No, it's not. You know, so because OK, we are very few. Every

00:27:26.479 - 00:27:46.939

one of us got scholarships one way or another. And uh of course, we behaved ourselves too, you know, and so we were loved and the, and the car off by, by the community, by the school body. Yeah. You didn't feel isolated, you feel isolated at all,

00:27:46.949 - 00:28:09.359

you know, got married and, you know, and the church members and uh you know, they, they want to sponsor this and do that and we have 100 guests, majority is Americans. So when you were here, that was a, that was a, you know, I, I didn't

00:28:09.369 - 00:28:33.089

expect that, you know, but of course to follow up what you are, you are concerned, you are thinking there is later on, for instance, for instance, now, yeah, if we have AAA party or what I say, 90 90% is Chinese rather than the American Civil War.

00:28:34.030 - 00:28:54.910

You know, that, that really shows the, the, the cultural difference because after all, so many years we trying to be, uh, Americanized, we trying to be. But yet still there is a difference. The value is different, you know. And, uh, I, I, yeah, I even can

00:28:54.920 - 00:29:18.369

tell you now. And, uh, both of my girls, I think you already know that both of them are quite understanding, quite good. Ok. They both, you know, the medical doctors and, uh, but the one married AAA Jewish, her, uh, medical school, uh, classmate, you know, the

00:29:18.380 - 00:29:39.449

other one, she went to Harvard. Yeah. And, uh, she even more excellent and more outstanding. And then, yeah, he trying to find, he couldn't find she wanted to, to marry or to have some Chinese boy. Oh, she wanted to marry someone who is Chinese but couldn't

00:29:39.459 - 00:30:05.719

find it. You know, finally at 33 year old, still married a German descent, you know, a New Yorker. Yeah. Her, her age, her group, you know, so I end up with both of them married out of, out of the country, all over the culture, all over

00:30:05.729 - 00:30:28.290

the inheritance or, or what? You know? No, you see, II, I blame them or I blame myself or I should have blamed it or I should have happy or, or what, what, what you can't explain anything, you know, then they are so smart and, and yet

00:30:28.300 - 00:30:56.119

finally they end up with this way and if I have this old, old, I mean, Chinese thinking I should kill myself, right? How can I, how can I even couldn't hold my own kid? Really control your, control your own family? Yeah. And so that's right. But

00:30:56.130 - 00:31:16.680

on the other thing you think about America, what is America? America is a, uh it's a melting pot, it's a bigger mixer, you know. So all you boil it down to and finally what you can say when they really wanted to marry them. And uh my

00:31:16.689 - 00:31:31.699

first one special I was in Beijing and, you know, call me a long, long distance. She said she want to do that. But I know the boy a long time ago already, you know, they, they've been going along and for 10 years and then, and then

00:31:31.709 - 00:31:50.780

I said, well, what were you thinking? You a decision? You know, I mean, I, I kind of dominating you and I prefer, I can say, you know, but you love her and she, he loves you and what I can do now, that's a very kind of,

00:31:50.790 - 00:32:16.079

would you say an American way to approach? It's open, it's open way. In other words, it's individualism and also, uh, it's, you individually, the most important part is you need to take responsibility for your action. Yeah. The same thing, you know, you talk about the freedom,

00:32:16.089 - 00:32:35.910

you're talking about democracy. If you don't have a discipline, you don't know. What are you doing now? You know, that's chaos. That's another democracy. So you need a discipline, you need a self-respect and then you need to respect to the others. Only then you can qualify

00:32:36.290 - 00:32:55.069

for saying that democracy. Yeah. For, say you wanna go your own way, you have your own life and this and that. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't have the responsibility, forget it. And of course we've been training them, I think are pretty, pretty good. They're fitted. All

00:32:55.079 - 00:33:14.780

right. They're doing all right. They don't bother us at all. But like you say, that's American way. That's not in the Chinese way. But yet my first time I went back to China in 1978 very few people went back. I bring my whole family. You know.

00:33:16.130 - 00:33:32.819

So my first girl when she was 10, my second girl, when she was four, they went back to China. That's the first time. Yeah. And uh, and then later on they, they've been back in the forth many times now. And uh, and uh I tried to

00:33:33.750 - 00:34:01.079

make a commitment to me, to myself. Even now every year, at least once I went to China. Yeah. I, I truly believe there's two, you know, opposite the country. Got to be friend, you know, got to be understanding each other, kinda to be cooperating, kind to

00:34:01.089 - 00:34:29.580

be mutually respect. Yeah. No, that's, that's very, and they're only there. You can look for the peaceful world and prosperity and, and because otherwise I see that that's my age, I promise for myself. So you feel you feel like you, you try to see kind of

00:34:29.590 - 00:34:46.090

uh the events in your life in this regard, like you talked about your daughters. And do you feel that in a lot of other respects in your life? You've tried to Americanize or you try to change your way of thinking, I'm not Americanizing or what? And

00:34:46.100 - 00:35:08.919

I, in my mind, I'm a Chinese and legally I am American. And uh as I say that we coming at the time America was expanding. They really need talented people. And so therefore, you know, like now the Chinese trying to have come here have a visa

00:35:08.929 - 00:35:28.229

problem. Have now we all kind of a problem at that time. We have a minimum and even come to here, you try to become natural and all these things, we almost automatically, we don't have to wait, we don't have to hire a lawyer. No, we do

00:35:28.239 - 00:35:50.389

that. Uh just fill the form in a line. That's it. You know, as long as you have the money. No, it's not the money, the, the, the, the 2400, but the money actually is borrowing from the people who are already in the U the. Well, I

00:35:50.399 - 00:36:22.560

don't know. But anyway, at that time and we, we, our, our group, uh I say is, uh you know, there's a 40 some 1000 you know, uh that actually changed the image of what is China, China and the Chinese to the Americans. Because the American before

00:36:23.560 - 00:36:53.620

is what is the railroad labor, laundry and you know, cool low class, open pigtail, you know, those are stereotypes. But in our group, you know, in other words, during the World War Two, like the and those they have a a minor small group, uh they were

00:36:53.629 - 00:37:34.030

exchange students too, you know, the massive one is this 52 you know, but I'm not a good, we have nothing to do with the government. It's the situation, it's the the environment, the when, when you said when the U needed, right? And that is

00:37:34.040 - 00:38:07.870

why when 1979 came here, we are the group of receiving here. Him and uh he was open, you know, he said one advantage China has for the open up so relatively easy. And uh because China has overseed national policy and national Treasury of people in masses

00:38:07.879 - 00:38:28.510

all over the world, somewhere around 30 to 40,000, uh 30 to 40 million, you know, people and this is a treasure. And uh and uh in, in the US, actually the, at that time, when less than 1 million, you know, the Chinese and this time, I

00:38:28.520 - 00:38:59.429

think it's on the 8 million now, you know. And uh and so, so the situation is quite different now and uh different time and different approaches is needed at different people, different mentalities and uh hopefully everything is toward the better end. So you feel like your,

00:38:59.439 - 00:39:17.919

your view of the situation has changed as you've been in the US. How have your views about your role in the United States and your view of the United States changed as you've been in the United States? OK. This part and maybe you don't want to

00:39:17.929 - 00:39:52.939

put it on here. I just come back uh from uh D CDC. Uh We have a group is our, our junior middle school friends in Taiwan. We have AAA this is a reunion. Yeah, in other words, is support to the middle school, to the normal University

00:39:53.290 - 00:40:17.500

in Taiwan, the Normal University. And this uh middle school is one of the top in Taiwan. And uh so the uh uh our, you know, over 50 years already, we still have this a reunion every year, you know, and uh to begin with about 80 people

00:40:17.510 - 00:40:38.189

only and then now we still can have a 20 to 30 people every time we together. So therefore why I'm saying that is we are all fundamentally in technical and professors and all this. And we all are agreed in answering your question there, how we view

00:40:38.199 - 00:41:04.370

the US at this point. Number one, first, we live through the best part of America, you know, from the early sixties, you know, all the way now, of course, a lot of people talk about America, maybe it is a decline or America is, you know, the

00:41:04.379 - 00:41:27.010

future is this and that. But I think in, in, in lots of ways it's because the other people are catching up, you know, the world is catching up, the world is catching up. That part contributes more than say America is decline. America not necessarily really decline.

00:41:27.020 - 00:41:58.729

America is a young, it's a, it's a more dynamic, they change it so quick. You know, when Obama got elected that night. Yeah. In your campus in the dorm, they are all coming out, raise the flag, sing the national anthem trying to say, hey, there's a

00:41:58.739 - 00:42:27.280

promise here another 30 years and brand new American is coming, going to be born. So, so lots of good people here, you know, those excellent, those, those the good ones. Yes, a whole bunch of junkies, you know, lots of flank out. So, you know, and uh

00:42:27.310 - 00:42:50.209

but this society is a, is a polarizing now, which is no good. But that's the fact. In other words, the good a part it's so good and the lousy part is so lousy. The danger is the middle class is disappearing. That's what a lot of people

00:42:50.219 - 00:43:05.250

are saying right now that is the, as I see, it is more danger than anything else. So you feel like when you were here, for example, you felt like you were part of that middle class and you were, you said you were here for the, for

00:43:05.260 - 00:43:25.760

the best years of America. And y and so that was the kind of middle class experience for you. Is that right now? I'm thinking back, yes, I can see that. But as I said, at the beginning, I always feel I'm the first generation. I have to

00:43:25.770 - 00:43:45.449

work hard. II, I cannot live an easy life. I have to be double smart and a triple ever. I only can got an E Do you feel that um I'm still feeling that you're still feeling that? But do you feel like during the time when? But,

00:43:45.459 - 00:44:05.320

but that's OK. You see, you see what I mean? But I'm not feeling, say if I feel I'm so great, I'm successful, I'm then you lost your humble part and then you have lost yourself. The next thing going to be, then you're going to be in

00:44:05.330 - 00:44:28.899

trouble because the society, I mean, the environment is moving is changing is because when you compare and only then, then you, you will see the good and the bad and the ordinary. OK. You said you remember what I just said, working hard, aiming high and then

00:44:28.909 - 00:44:47.959

be humble, right? The humble, that's, that's important, right? Otherwise you, you will fail in here. You know, you talked about how um you said you had to be double, smart and triple work, triple hard. But then you, you do feel that um the society has, has

00:44:47.969 - 00:45:04.050

treated you fairly, you've done just to be even, you have to be working that hard just to be even, that's how it work because hey, I am an outsider. Mm OK. Right. You know why, why should I be treated like a king or uh have some

00:45:04.060 - 00:45:20.735

special privilege? But do you ever feel that you were, you were, I don't feel that discriminating in it or barriers? Yes, a barrier and discriminating. Yes, they, they do have it, you know, like I say, uh when the uh when they are not working, you know,

00:45:21.145 - 00:45:42.389

at the, at the company and uh you know, when, when say uh need a promotion or a performance review and, you know, they always can find a reason. What is the best reason to find fault on you? Your English is no good. OK. Yeah. No, it's

00:45:42.399 - 00:46:02.459

very true. You know that, oh yes, you heard you, you know, but relatively speaking and my English is not that bad. You know, why giving uh seminars and uh you know, at the floor, we have a constant study and training program, every senior engineer to need

00:46:02.469 - 00:46:30.919

to give a lecture, you know, and uh you know, all those things I did. Ok. But I still, hey, lot of those slags and a lot of those, uh, things in the, we are not a grown w we don't know. You see, like I say, now,

00:46:30.949 - 00:47:01.570

equivalent to the best equivalent I say, like I say, uh, uh, Monday morning, uh, Monday morning, uh, what is the, the center that, the football, that the, the quarterback, the Monday morning quarterback? Yeah, I mean, this kind of things, I mean, we naturally it's a deficiency,

00:47:01.580 - 00:47:20.250

you know, and how, how you gonna complain. But like you say, at the moment at that time, yes, I feel mistreated. I think I'm smart. I think I know that a question but I cannot explain it better than, you know. Right. Because of those handicaps, they

00:47:20.260 - 00:47:39.709

are handicaps. So once you started thinking that way or that's after you've been beating down so many times, you know, you realize you have to admit it, you know, because I say that you want to play fair or at least I'm asking the fair play. Ok.

00:47:40.120 - 00:48:03.610

Right. You know, you, uh, and also in answering your question, in another way, my first job here was in a smaller company. In a smaller company. You have a benefit. Mhm. Because the smaller company have a very few people, you know, and, uh, if you are

00:48:03.620 - 00:48:22.939

smart enough, boy, anything and everything all turn up on you, you know. So on the first year I'm a little bit harder and then the rest hope the whole company depend on me. I'm becomes the, the technical gurus. You mean you proved yourself? Yeah, I prove

00:48:22.949 - 00:48:44.610

myself. Yeah. Otherwise why, why they trust me and why they wanted me, you know, why they keep promoting me, you know, and the, it's all because as I thinking back now, because I realized um the first generation I needed to be double smart, I needed to

00:48:44.620 - 00:49:09.659

be triple effort. And uh I need to always thinking I'm in danger rather than I can relax and I can enjoy it. No, I, I understand what you saying. I always, you know, alert, keep my alert. You see my first assignment, you know, out of the

00:49:09.669 - 00:49:33.820

country assignment on my job. So we went to Greece, I went to Greece. You know, the Greece is the first oil field on the offshore. The problem is nobody wants to go because too dangerous, the sulfur content over 50%. In other words, if in the US,

00:49:34.030 - 00:49:57.139

that kind of field, we never touch it even. Hello. So in the form of H two sh two s in 20 P PM going to make you fat, 50 P PM parts per minute going to kill you. And so you had to, you were you not?

00:49:57.149 - 00:50:24.260

I had to but I volunteer. Ok. Yeah, because most people don't want to do that. Hey, when you're moving, there's opportunities. If you stand there still, you lost them, you know. So I think I can do it there, a danger, dangerous civil war, you know, be

00:50:24.270 - 00:50:44.010

careful, you know, that's all. So I took that, that assignment, you know, and, uh actually I performed very well and, uh, you know, those kind of, uh, I use that as a one example, you know, to do, somebody don't want to do the, the thing to

00:50:44.020 - 00:51:03.979

take on the challenges. You know, it's a, it's an unusual one or abnormal one, you know, do it. So you, you, that's how you approach your career approach. Yes. Did you feel that um outside of your work though? Uh how, how did you feel like about,

00:51:04.070 - 00:51:26.229

did you feel you had to prove yourself in the community or like to your neighbors, the people who you knew was that part difficult, that part, uh that part uh at the beginning. Yes. OK. Later on, I think that that part uh have more to do

00:51:26.239 - 00:51:46.399

with your personality rather than culture rather than culture. And uh once you realize some of those key points, you know, you realize, you know, who you are and then, you know, OK, who he is and then what I'm devising a way to deal with you, you

00:51:46.409 - 00:52:10.100

know, so it becomes an issue and uh yes, once in a while still coming up because you look at all my name, I'm insisting on using that name. I don't want to put a uh David and, and and you know, I put AAA and therefore is

00:52:10.110 - 00:52:29.649

a lot of the time then they say, oh, this guy just coming or what? Right. You don't know nothing, right? They try to take advantage of me. That's all right. You know, you do it. I know. In other words, my approach, maybe that's uh my approach

00:52:29.659 - 00:52:53.100

is be honest, face it, be honest and face it, right? Any kind of a problem you come in, you know, have an honest evaluation on the situation, on the understanding and then I face the problem, I'm not escaping or got away or ran away from the

00:52:53.110 - 00:53:10.010

problem. You're saying that's why you didn't change your name. That kind of, that's the philosophy. Yeah, that's kind of a, that kind of, I guess in a way like a attitude or a way of life or a way of approaching things, you know. So therefore I

00:53:10.360 - 00:53:32.189

the the situation like you say that you feel discriminating, you feel, yes, I do have those situations, but it never really bothered me that much because as I see it and they gave my face even even say even the coworker and working together and uh you

00:53:32.199 - 00:53:55.469

know, after a couple of time and give you the performance review and uh hey, you sometimes becomes argue, argue, you know, becomes a, I, I don't agree what you did this and that, that's all right. Open it up pocket over and then what's the problem? Let's

00:53:55.479 - 00:54:15.689

try to solve it if we can. So if we don't, OK, I'll give you some time, you know. And so, so, uh uh so I, I think in answering your question, yes, we did a facing all those, but I took a different approach rather than say,

00:54:15.699 - 00:54:35.739

yeah, I hate that and I got away from it and uh or I got scared or go back home crying or no, I don't do that. I say I see what you say. Yeah, in other words, uh whatever the problem is trying to solve it, how

00:54:35.750 - 00:55:02.219

to solve it, face it, how to face it, understand it, how to understand it, study, study and research, dig out, you know, when you're doing the digging and the searching and uh start with you yourself and then put yourself in the other shoes, see why he

00:55:02.229 - 00:55:24.050

do that. You know, in other words, I try to cover as fair as possible. American is a famous, is the fair play, right? Yeah, let's do the fair way. And so II I do this with the tax guy. I do this with the officials. I do

00:55:24.060 - 00:55:40.949

this with the FBI or my advisor or my boss or, and therefore you see, I end up with, I, I know it, I say this is the CEO being the manager, those who forget it. You know, the third generation, you have no way to, to, to

00:55:40.959 - 00:55:59.699

guard it that it doesn't matter how working hard you are. Especially like us, you don't have a capital, right? You don't have your uh you are peer group, you are, you are supporter, you are relative, you are connected with, not like how it would be in

00:55:59.709 - 00:56:49.090

China, right? We don't, you know. So you know, so what are you gonna do in this situation like this? See in the soul, you know, so uh sweet. So anything that happened, I want it right away. I'm not uh

00:56:49.100 - 00:57:09.729

procrastinating, you know, and of course you, if you didn't understand it, you did, did not to do any research, you didn't really think it through, you know, you better slow down, you know, give you some time, right? We get every patient that's also needed, you know.

00:57:10.530 - 00:57:39.810

And uh so I say most, most and to this point, I'm 76 years old already. And uh I see, um just be fair, I mean, this, this society, it's uh it's OK, it's ok, you know, it's ok. It's not uh it could be better, you know,

00:57:40.000 - 00:58:03.360

it couldn't be worse, it could it be worse. But you're saying to just play it fair, that's how you would reproach things, right? Play that affair and be honest, be reasonable and I don't see any problem, you know, and uh I, I say that even, you

00:58:03.370 - 00:58:28.810

know, now the immigration seems to become a big issue, you know, and hey, to begin with, you have to respect that uh Spanish or that uh or Chicanos and that culture, you have to understand their culture is the national percentage in the phd is the Spanish

00:58:28.820 - 00:58:53.340

population even lower or less than the blacks. You know, very few. They have the minimum phd because their culture don't ask for that. Yeah. They don't want you to keep pushing, pushing, they want, they want to party, you know, and they got AC and AD, they

00:58:53.350 - 00:59:13.699

are really happy because they didn't flunk out. You know, my wife will work for the University of Tang for almost 40 years. And then, you know, she has all kind of a student, you know, if it's a uh Vietnamese or a Japanese or Korean Chinese, hey,

00:59:13.709 - 00:59:40.110

hey, hey, everything, hey, you know, if it's uh yeah, Mexicans or South America, they said, oh, I'm so happy and what I got ad he said, very happy because f Frank Frank out. So, so yeah, it's a different culture. You've got different value. So therefore you

00:59:40.120 - 01:00:02.649

don't expect it to them, don't expect them too much, you know, and therefore you don't have the fear, you don't have to. And so yeah, the the the Chinese culture is pushes for the excellency. So that right, definitely one will, that's one thing that you didn't,

01:00:02.689 - 01:00:22.979

one way that your culture is very much part of you through throughout your experiences that you've described that. And also compare with what with the top bunch of the society. OK? You don't, you don't compare yourself with the lower part. You know what I mean? You

01:00:22.989 - 01:00:44.669

remember when I say the American either the good one, real good, you know, you know that in your, in your class and the smarter fellow and the wise, they are not dumb at all. Very smart. OK? Until 1968 Rice University used to be, they don't charge

01:00:44.679 - 01:01:07.729

you for graduation, right? Don't charge you anything. Instead they give you money and only, it's a, uh, it's a science and engineering school. Yeah, until 68 they started accepting the state funding and then, you know, they lower their standard and they, they, but they still keep

01:01:07.739 - 01:01:29.620

it there every year. 606 100 plus, you know, they never really want to expand until, oh, until what, until the eighties, that's when they started, they started having the, uh, the become a bigger university have the, uh, liberal art, you know, and, uh, and, uh, but,

01:01:29.629 - 01:01:44.800

uh, racist, racist are pretty good. Yeah. So I'm kind of wondering, I want to go back to, uh, what you said at the beginning, which I thought it was very interesting that you said that Taiwan is not your home. And, um, you may have felt that,

01:01:44.810 - 01:01:57.760

uh, there are points in your life with you. Sure you were without a home, you didn't feel like you were from Taiwan. So, could I ask, what do you, where would you after this, where do you consider your home to be um whether it's us or

01:01:57.770 - 01:02:21.139

China, how do you, how do you approach that? I think I mentioned that psychologically or my feeling wise, men, mentally thinking, you know, I am Chinese. I'm 100% Chinese and uh and yet, you know, I stayed here for so long and then my uh the, the

01:02:21.149 - 01:02:43.810

families and the connections and the whatever is all American, you know, but emotionally still I have to go to China every year, you know, and now I even subscribe to the Chinese TV program. You know, I, I watch those uh those uh those shows and uh

01:02:44.330 - 01:03:03.080

you know, bring me back, you see all the, the Chinese culture, the depth of the culture, you know, it's so deep and uh and uh you can't, you can't, you know, and of course, on the other hand, say, yeah, I want to show it to my

01:03:03.189 - 01:03:24.120

girls, they don't want to, you see that. So how do you, how do you think even my wife don't want to do that? You know? And so in your question is pretty, pretty uh pretty hard. And uh you know, I still because of, I went back

01:03:24.129 - 01:03:41.389

to China pretty early and uh and uh you know, 1978 at that time, very few people went back and of course they treated me like a foreign expert and this and that and uh I did the exchange and you know, yeah, I did all that things

01:03:41.399 - 01:04:05.979

and uh I all the top shots I made them, you know, but uh uh for, for, for not once, even more than once I wanna go back. Ok. You know, but in China they told me they say that no, we need a friends, we have too

01:04:05.989 - 01:04:33.120

few friends outside China, ok? We, you stay outside even better for, for us and for both sides to understand each other. And that I derived from that point to come to this point. And I said my objective, even my life's objective is trying to build the

01:04:33.129 - 01:04:58.500

best bridge, you know, the culture and the two people to. So that's how you would answer the question. Yes. And uh I cannot have forgot about my culture and my people, I still have relatives in China, you know, and yet in their mind, they are not

01:04:58.510 - 01:05:22.120

necessarily considered 100% Chinese either. You see, you know, I gotta, I gotta no, most of those uh uh during the exchange period. And uh those uh my counterpart uh from 19 years, especially in 1960 not 1996 to 98. I worked two years in the Petroleum Ministry,

01:05:22.129 - 01:05:46.120

you know, and uh but all those, they all retired now, even that uh councilor general offices, you know, this 10 pass the and and voice and they are all retired. And uh and uh but yet I still maintain a couple of good friends every time I

01:05:46.129 - 01:06:08.979

go back, you know, we all had a, had a very good meeting, you know, and even now once in a while we call each other and, and so uh you asking me, I am American or I am a Chinese or have to answer you in both

01:06:08.989 - 01:06:31.540

ways, you know. You know, I cannot say uh uh one and one only that's enough, that's unfair, you know. And so uh we consider our, I mean, I in a way consider myself like a universe people or uh you know, I or a world citizen maybe,

01:06:31.550 - 01:06:47.939

or a world citizen. That idea may be a little bit too, you know, I, I am not but, but, but, but it is in a way because all over the world pretty much, I would uh I will quite a, quite a few place in that before

01:06:47.949 - 01:07:13.739

19 98 or say before year 2000, most of the traveling are just working, you know, working, working and uh but after that year 2000 to now this 10 years, I've been just uh you know, touring and visiting and uh traveling for fun and different, right? Different

01:07:13.750 - 01:07:36.330

places. And also China is very good, so many tourism, tourist attraction places and especially the cultural part, you know, and um just about just about everywhere I went, went through. And uh and so in a, in a, in a way, yes, uh you can consider um

01:07:36.929 - 01:08:05.129

uh quite a diversified or quite a universe or you know, but that again is a, they say would benefit if you're working hard. Yeah, you have the ability, ability, 12 things financially and physically. You know, and I'm still, I can tell and, and, you know, your

01:08:05.139 - 01:08:24.600

mind has to be clear. Right. And then you have the enough money on it to, to, to do all these things and, uh, I, I'm not taking any kind of advantage. No, governmental grant or some special grant. No, not on my own. You know, where is

01:08:24.609 - 01:08:52.950

my money all coming from? From my working, you know? And so, uh, so II I feel pretty even and peaceful. Yeah. And, uh, and, uh, ever since year 50 50 years old and the people we started thinking to, to, to, to contributing or to, to care

01:08:52.959 - 01:09:15.620

or to, to bring up, you know, somebody else. So III, I did some of those too and, uh, but the bigger one I still not doing yet and I sponsored a couple of students from Tsinghua to here, you know. And, uh, and that's, uh, in the

01:09:15.629 - 01:09:48.818

eighties they all happened in the eighties. Yeah. And, uh, the, everything your father, that generation, that group, they are, they are pretty good, you know, they are fairly, uh, they are more daring in, in, in many ways than us, you know, I think in many ways

01:09:48.829 - 01:10:06.370

is because there is a country, there is a homeland, supporting them, you know, at least psychologically they are. More relaxed. But in in our case, no, we were not. I see that's very different. They do have families back there and they, you know, were able to

01:10:06.379 - 01:10:24.640

go to college back there. Ok? And then you can, I mean, China today is China compared to 30 50 years in China, totally different, totally different. You see and uh but but still on the China, I think I have one more thing here, China still divided,

01:10:25.479 - 01:10:49.700

China is still divided in which way are you talking about? I'm talking about Taiwan, China. Ok. That is no good. Ok. For whatever the reasons we needed to do our work for most to work a tour to a to finish it to, it's not, it's not

01:10:49.709 - 01:11:14.959

good to have this unresolved and uh in a way because of a strategy, the reason or what us seems to play the double standard and triple tricks that, that's a, that's not a fair play to my standard. OK. So this past the 10 some years, I've

01:11:14.970 - 01:11:38.049

been promoting this for very heavily, you know, and try to resolve these things and they and the no, by the thousands and tens of thousands of people across the back and forth, you know, but yet, you know, the politicians are still playing the hard ball and

01:11:38.060 - 01:12:03.629

uh trying to uh use the foreign power or the foreign involvement, trying to refuse this unification thing is a, it's a ridiculous and uh no, I see what you're saying? Yeah, because you believe and uh you, you want to see in the next generation more, more

01:12:03.640 - 01:12:28.540

dialogue because you through your generation, you experienced. Um so yeah, both in China and also um coming to a new country as an immigrant without uh without support. And um and the next logical step is as you say, for China and the us to, to be

01:12:28.549 - 01:12:51.259

more together, to work together, better for both people to understand better. The issue with Taiwan is someplace in the way of that. And also the number one and number two trying to work together is very hard, right? OK. That competition is very need. So we need

01:12:51.270 - 01:13:15.919

it from all front, you know, all generation oversight. And uh so therefore, don't think I say you are, you know, a student now or you just, you graduate, you don't have any sort of status and therefore it's not your business. No, no, everyone's business. You know,

01:13:16.419 - 01:13:41.859

everyone is peace loving and uh looking forward. And uh yeah, you, you really have some thought about the world peace about the US and the China's reapproached or United or understanding, you know, you have to, you minim ways minim. Right. Right. You're saying it's not just

01:13:41.870 - 01:14:03.509

maybe if you're in government or you don't, it's not just the leaders. No, it's every field, every, every way and uh and it's a long way. I I, you know, my, you said that from the, the 50 60 years ago, I'm over 50 years from now

01:14:03.520 - 01:14:26.069

here. And you looking back and all these things, you know, it's a, it made a tremendous difference, you know, tremendous progress already, you know, and, and yet, like you say, who you are, I mean, I still have a difficulty to, you know, to describe or to

01:14:26.080 - 01:14:48.410

definitely, yeah, because it is all, you know, like nowadays, you know, just because of Twitter and Facebook and all those things, you can, you can igniting a fire in the, in the Middle East, you know, and all those things, it is changing so fast. Therefore, the

01:14:48.419 - 01:15:09.379

uh president that the man that the mindset has to be up to date, you know, has to be a follow up of the events and the seal. And then only then you can number one, maybe you understand that you protected yourself. And number two, you're not

01:15:09.390 - 01:15:27.580

to be attacked in the horror water. You know, you need to aware and you need to self protect, you need it to and at the end, you know, that just like Jesus Christ, I said, I'm not a Christian in our water. But uh you understand yourself,

01:15:27.589 - 01:15:49.180

you know, and then you can control yourself and then you can love somebody else that means you can contribute otherwise, you know, but they all started a wi you understand yourself and then you come true yourself and then you love them. So that, that, that a

01:15:49.859 - 01:16:10.350

there's a sequence to that here. And so that's why I say the young people, are you guys? Right. Right. This is our generation, right? And so so in a way, you know, II I know you trying to set up or have a providing something in the,

01:16:10.359 - 01:16:29.350

this archive thing and whatever I say, he may not be really fitted in there even, you know, but no, this is what I say is the most, at least in my generation, we all have this kind of thinking, you know, and yet, because we are the

01:16:29.359 - 01:16:52.279

minority minority in this society, it's very hard for us to be shining to be glorifying or what, you know, because the to say the least they're gonna mistrust you or they don't understand you or don't want to trust you to begin with, right to begin with.

01:16:52.350 - 01:17:07.439

And then it doesn't matter how much effort and then you still not only in vain and then you maybe got a whole bunch of trouble for nothing, you know, and that is a way, put it discouraging in that way and yet, OK, because of that and

01:17:07.450 - 01:17:35.700

then we don't do nothing. That's not good either. So, so I guess my final conclusion, where is this before? When I 1st 1968 coming to Houston that time, Houston had about 5000 uh Asian East Asia people for 5000 among them, about 3000 Chinese already. But two,

01:17:35.709 - 01:18:04.490

some of them are the uh 3rd, 4th generation, you know, the, 000, no, they are pretty much a day off for now, you know. And, uh, from that 5000, that's 1968. Now, what, about 50 years later? Here's an area, everybody is talking about the 200,000, about,

01:18:04.500 - 01:18:28.919

about 500,000 now. Yeah. About the Asian American or if you, including Indians and all those. Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah, about, about half a million. Yeah. So it's a, it's quite a bit of difference and yet you see how many of them are really, uh,

01:18:31.649 - 01:18:59.970

don't have any, uh, uh I said every one of them have their complain, their problem, they're good and the bad. Yeah. And, uh how many of them are really like to try to answer the question because we have a, uh uh, in a way, if you

01:18:59.979 - 01:19:24.879

strictly speaking, there's a loyalty problem here too. You know, that is why sometimes and if, if the minority minority got into trouble, you always just like the performance review. Your English is no good, you know, say, hey, you have a loyalty brother, say that. And that

01:19:24.890 - 01:19:46.390

is that is why when you are in a minority, minority group, some are very hard for, for you to express yourself in the right way in a useful way. You know, that is who I think the major part of the reason why seems yet you are

01:19:46.399 - 01:20:09.419

so smart. But on the other hand, you guys seems contributed to this community minimum. You know. That's, yeah, we don't really, we kind of stick to ourselves. We don't involve that much, you know. And you say the problem is that we, well, what, what could you

01:20:09.430 - 01:20:36.020

say again, what you, what you think the reason for that is, it's a, it's a minority to minority. And therefore if you try to express yourself just a uh any intentionally, you or intentionally, you, you, you, you missed something, you very easily to be misjudged, you

01:20:36.029 - 01:20:57.729

know, or misunderstood. Uh you talk about minorities in the Chinese Americans within the larger minority with a, with a larger community. See, in other words, why uh for instance, like the last election trying to vote a uh uh a uh running for the council may, you

01:20:57.740 - 01:21:19.299

know, used to be, we, even when Chinese was very few at that time, we always at least have one councilman in the Houston City is a Chinese, you know, and then later on the and all that, but now we don't have any, you know, last time

01:21:19.310 - 01:21:46.450

we don't have any. And now Texas increase in full congressional district, you know, the congressmen have four more positions coming up. I I'm trying to say, you know, East Asia, I mean, the Korean, the Chinese and the Japanese, you know, at least the one should be

01:21:47.299 - 01:22:08.399

represented, but it's not. But so far the only way I can look at maybe Vietnamese going to have a, with that guy, you know, he may be if you're going to it, you know, and so the uh the, the, the involvement because of a cultural difference,

01:22:08.410 - 01:22:24.640

you know, we never fully integrated. Yes, that's true. You're saying that you would say, would you say that we don't feel we're a part of that culture, we don't feel we're a part of it even though we succeed in it, right? We are smart enough, we

01:22:24.649 - 01:22:44.229

are succeeding in many ways, but we are not involved in that, in that political arena. And you would say it's a cultural, it's a cultural feeling of cultural distance and not in and then is a confidence, confidence problem. You know, it is true that I think,

01:22:44.240 - 01:23:06.089

I think you and your generation, you know, needed somebody coming up because the uh the second and the third generation, I hey already quite a few, the the Chinese writer started with that. Yeah. And then, you know, we have a quite a few now and there,

01:23:06.100 - 01:23:26.319

there are some uh I mean, there Asian Americans in government like Elaine Chao. But uh but uh but uh you know, we need a more, you know, political activity, right? We need a more, in other words, the involvement and the which the uh the uh uh

01:23:26.419 - 01:23:48.410

the the best combination of both cultures, both societies, you know, the best part of America, the best part of China. If we can put these two together. That's perfect. Well, that's, that's very well said, Mr Jen. Thank you very much. I mean, that, that's a good,

01:23:48.850 - 01:24:05.870

I think we talk a whole bunch and it's a, to put on paper. I, I actually do this a lot. I, I actually transcribe a lot of things. I've had a lot of practice with this, so, don't worry about that.