Truong Duy Nong oral history interview

Today is March 8th. We’re here with the Houston Asian American Archive, interviewing Dr. Truong Nong. My name is Mary Claire Neal.

Uh, my name is Tian-Tian He. Okay, thank you for coming, Dr. Nong. Will you just start by telling us about the family and community into which you were born?

Um, I was born in uh, Vietnam. Uh a long time ago. Exactly, 1958. Uh, I uh, grew up, uh, during the war.

And um, and uh, when I finished high school, the war ended. And um, and when the war ended, my family was affected, uh, you know, severely, because my dad was

in the uh, the uh, Republic of Vietnam or South Vietnam army, and so he was put in jail. But they uh, used a very nice name for the jail. A reeducation camp.

And uh, and with no, uh, time for releasing. Uh, and nobody knows when he will be released. All the, all the officer, all of the

uh, Vietnamese army officers were put in the camp. And uh, nobody knows when they will be, uh, released. And then my mom and I—I have a large family, I have nine siblings, including me,

so there was ten people, ten children. And my mom had to uh, to try to survive and, and raise us there up. But then another, um, uh, bad luck you can call it, but it was, you know, deliberate.

Um, the communists confiscated all of the uh, uh, properties, the house that we have, and they uh, put it into the uh, zone they call it, New Economic Zone.

Which is another nice name for a jungle. And uh, we were put there to uh, to do whatever we can to survive. And then we—by, by that time in 1975 I was 18 years old.

And uh, I’m a grownup, I have to help my mom to take care of the family. So when we go to the jungle, uh, we choose—well, luckily, they allow us to choose the

place to go to. And so we choose the—we choose, uh, Cà Mau, it’s the southernmost province. It’s a big jungle, but it’s right at the sea. So we try, and, and they allowed us to go there, and then

we bought some land and a fishing boat, a small fishing boat. And I learned how to uh, to farm the land. And I learned how to uh, uh, fish, using the fishing boat, drift out to the sea,

and learn how to navigate the sea. And after two years there, we had to retry and re-escape. And re-escape,

and, and, and luckily we made it to Thailand. Out there, um, four days and three nights. Roughly five days and four nights.

And we made it to Thailand. And from there we were put into the uh, refugee camp, and then the uh, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees camp, and all

sort of thing to provide support and screening and to—for another country to accept us. And um, and we had family—my mom has uh, her sister already here in the U.

S., and so they sponsored us. And um, and so we came through the camp in Thailand in February 1980. And then uh, and

where we get transferred to the Philippines for three more months. And then the total time that we stay in the camp is nine months. And we made it to the U.

S. by November 1980. Uh, near Thanksgiving. It’s about a few days before Thanksgiving. So that, that, that uh, that, I, you know,

my uh, my uh, teenage, uh, time was uh, during the war, but we in the city, we are not affected much by the, the casualty. But uh, but we know that the war is raging on in the countryside.

And um, and after that, uh, you know, we, we were refugee, we came here, where we would be well liked, yeah. Can you tell me—you went to high school in Saigon, right?

Yeah. Can you tell me about high school and any memories you have? Uh, high school in Vietnam, um, is very different from uh, from the high school over here. We do not have, uh, facilities or resources. So say for example, um, for—we don’t have lab.

We don’t have money to buy lab equipment, so we study chemistry and physics, but we have no labs. It’s this old building. And um…and the curriculum, uh, is more rigorous than here in the, in

the States. High school student, uh, twelfth grade, must take Calculus II. A student must have Calculus II.

And so this is very tough. And it’s tough for the students because the war is going on, and so the draft is on too. So you have to pass the uh, the high-school exam.

It’s a national exam, it’s not just like here, but we—after you finish the uh, high school, and everyone would have to take the national exam. If you pass that exam, then will be—you will be able to uh,

take another exam to enter college. It’s very competitive. And then, in the high school, if you uh, you fail that exam, for male student,

you’re 18 years old, you get drafted. And so this is very scary, it’s very uh, stressful, for the uh, young, uh, male students. So we don’t see that—

everybody tried so hard to study to pass that exam. And if you don’t pass that exam, you, you have—your, your future is—that’s it. You either go to the, the army, or uh, you know,

and there’s no other way. And if you pass the exam, then you take another exam to get into the college. And if you pass that, then you can defer. But so, it’s—the um, the resources, so limited.

So university in Vietnam, they don’t have uh, they only have one university in Saigon. With thousand of thousands of students trying to get in. So it’s very competitive, and uh, very tough.

So if you pass the national exam for high school…and that doesn’t mean that you can go on to college. Yeah. And if you cannot get into co—to college, and then you get draft,

yeah. Were there student demonstrations against the draft, and did you know people involved in them? I beg your pardon? Were there student demonstrations or protests against the draft, or did you…? Okay. Because we know that, that the war is going on, and then

our own survival was threatened. And so even though we don’t want to go to the army, but, you know, if we have to then we have to. Uh, there—when uh, in, in the ‘60s, uh, there were a few, uh, demonstration,

protests against the war. But the, but those, uh, protests, uh, was instigated by uh, left-leaning or communist, uh, sympathizers.

Uh, but uh, not much. Um, do you have any memories from before high school, when you were very young, of your family or going to school, your favorite subjects, favorite teachers? Uh, yeah, um, when,

when, um, my high school uh—no, not high school, it’d be uh, kindergarten—we don’t have kindergarten. Uh, I didn’t have kindergarten. Uh, elementary.

At my school, when I was in my elementary school, was very small. Because my dad was in the army, so when he get uh, stationed at different place, we have to move the whole family with

him. Um, and my elementary school is uh, very small, and now I have to—just happen to get a picture of that school, “Wow, it’s so small!” And I, I, and it just uh…in uh,

in, in Minh Hoa province, which is about 30 kilometers from Saigon. Uh, I uh, I study elementary over there. Uh, fifth grade.

And then 1968, 1968 is the Te—the year of uh, the uh, Tet Offense. And uh, our house were destroyed, uh, during the fighting.

So we moved to Saigon, and I started high school in Saigon. Uh, so my uh, memory of the uh, younger years is very

limited, yeah. When you moved to Saigon, were there other families around you doing the same thing alongside your family? Yeah. Um, so where—were there any

friends or people you knew that moved from where you lived to Saigon? No. So when the uh, the, the um, the Offensive, uh, happened, so everybody on his own.

Uh, and so my family can’t get to Saigon, other can, so they have to try to survive in any—in any which way they can find. Um, did you have a favorite subject in high school?

In high school, mathematics is my favorite subject, yeah. I’m a math teacher. I, I remember, uh, in sixth grade, I encountered, um,

a uh, a problem that fascinated me. It was about a logic problem. Uh, uh, say uh, Indiana Jones.

And he got uh, captured by a cannibal, you know, tribe. And they are going to eat him. And so, but the, the chief of the tribe is uh, is also a mathematician. And so he offer Indiana Jones a way,

and he told him, “You have to make a statement. If it is true, I will hang you. If it is false, I will drown you.” So what should Indiana

Jones say in order to save himself? And I was in sixth grade, I’d read that problem, and I went, “Whoa, this is fascinating.” So did you figure it out? If you make a true

statement you will be hanged, false you will be drowned. So what would you say? So it has to be both true and false? Or like neither? No, uh, the statement is either true or false. So, so uh, the solution is this, it’s very

simple. Indy just said that, “I will be drowned.” If it is true, then he will be hanged. There’s a contradiction. If it is false—this cannot be false.

And so the tribe—the chief of the tribe had to let him go. Isn’t that fascinating? Yes. Yeah, that’s just cool. And um, and another thing that, that, uh, that, that, uh,

you know, spurred my uh, my uh, uh, enthusiasm and interest in mathematics, the definition of, of a line in geometry. A line, it was defined as something that is very

thin, and it is very long, indefinitely long. Uh, infinitely long, and there’s no thickness. I’m going, Wow, what is that?

So those, those things, you know, um, makes me love math. And uh, and so mathematics is my favorite subject. Uh, another thing, another subject is uh, the uh, literature.

Yeah, I am uh, I’m good at that too, yeah. Did you have any favorite books growing up? Uh, yeah, I’ve read uh, all sort of books, all sort of things. Uh, I don’t know how, but uh, I

remember, I read um, Tao Te Ching when I was in ninth grade. I don’t know how, and what, you know, instant that I encountered that book, but I remember that I

read that during my ninth grade. And so I read philosophy, history, uh, biology, uh, and um, mathematics. Uh, and I loved thrillers.

I love thrillers. The spy stuff, I love those things. Um, will you tell us about your parents and the values they impressed upon you, what you learned from them growing up in your childhood?

Yes, um, my dad has a very uh, uh, deep influence on all of our, um, siblings. Got to live uh with integrity. And all of his life, he demonstrate that.

Uh, he was a high-ranking officer, so he could have, you know, uh, other material stuff come to him, you know, by subordinates or, you know, but he never took any of that.

And uh, he live with the uh, principle, um, from uh, always try to do the right thing. And even when he was in uh, reeducation camp, he kept his word.

And uh, and so that, that, that—we all, uh, brother and sister, tried to live up to that. My mom on the other hand, she’s uh, I have to say, she’s uh, a wonder woman.

You rem—you, you imagine that she came here with no English and twenty bucks. And with ten children. Actually, my older

sister had family, but eight of us to take care of. She speaks no English. Uh, and uh, no money. But she rebuild, and she works very hard, from uh,

five in the morning to ten at night, every day. Every day. And when, when our family is here, our father was still in the camp. And so, so she’s here by herself. And she works very, very hard to, to provide

for us. And so as the, the oldest son, I had to help her. So I couldn’t—when we came here, uh, my younger brother and sister go to school, but I have to go to work to help the

family. And um, and she, she made it. And after a few years of hard work, she was able to uh—and, and another thing is that, in Vietnam she was a very successful businesswoman, and so she has contact.

And so they went, when she came here, she had her contacts, her connection, and so she can borrow money. And so after a few years she was able to buy a convenience, uh, store.

And uh, work for herself. But uh, but that is a very tough job, you get robbed several times. And uh, long hour.

Uh, store open at uh, six, so she had to be there at five or four, and work through ‘til ten o’clock at night. And uh, by all by herself. And I, I tried to help her, uh, by taking care of the second shift.

But uh, and we try to survive. That’s it, my mom, she’s a hard worker. Uh, and that is the value that you have to—all of us learn, to work very hard.

Nothing is free, you have to work for it. Uh, and uh, that, actually, it works. Did you— Uh, how do you think she kept up her

motivation back then? And like, what did she do for fun? Uh, what do I do for fun? Wow, I actually—for the first five

years when we came to the U. S., I have no fun. Uh, I work, uh, for the convenience store, 7/11, uh, before we were able to

buy a store. Night shift, from eleven to seven, and I got robbed twice. For two years. And after that I got promoted to the store manager.

Store manager has more responsibilities, so I had to be at the store very early to release the night guy, the night-shift guy. And then to have to take care of the money, accounting, paperwork.

And uh…I cannot sleep very well at night. Because at, at night when the phone ring, it means that the store got problem.

And they call in, “I get robbed,” and then I have to get up, and then go over to the store, “Are you okay?” And then so, for the first five years, uh, you know, I have no time for

myself. It’s just go to work at six in the morning until eight or nine to make sure that the store is okay, and then go to sleep and go to

work that way. So, so, so, very tough, so…and I, but I still try to read, yeah, I read a lot. And that is, I think that is, um, the only thing that I, I have for entertainment, yeah, for fun.

Um, what were your responsibilities as a teenager, being—you were the oldest son, right? Mhm. But you had some older sisters? Yes. Okay, um, so when did you start having responsibilities as an

oldest son? How old were you? Uh, when the war ended. Okay. So 1975 when I was 18 years old, yeah. Okay. Um, so how did you know, both when you moved to Saigon

and then when you were sent to the um, what did you call it? The—not the jungle, but the nice name for the jungle. Uh, New Economic Zone. New Economic Zone. How did you understand what was going on?

Was everyone talking about it, did you hear from the news, or? Yeah, we uh, we try to get the information, the news from outside of the country by

listening to uh, VOA, the Voice of America. BBC. And uh, but that is uh, that is uh, forbidden. So we have to be very carefully to listen to those radios. Uh, at night. Uh, and very tiny little

volume. But so we, we know that uh, people are escaping. People are coming to Thailand, people are encountering, uh, pirates on the high sea, people get rejected,

and so on and so forth. Uh, so we have a glimpse of the outside world. But uh, in the country, the communists control

everything, and you don’t know anything. Actually, whatever the uh—you know is what they let you know. And, but uh, but we, we try to get some of the information from the VOA and uh,

BBC, yes. How did the communists let you know that you would have to leave your home in Saigon? Uh, again? How did you—how were you informed that you would have to leave your home in Saigon? Well, they come to our house and then um, they just read

the order. But uh, you have uh, and from today, from now on, you cannot take anything out your house. And then you have thirty days to move out of the house to a place of your choice.

That’s the nice thing that they still have. Otherwise, we will take you to wherever we want. And so what do you choose?

You have to go find a place for yourself. And uh, and uh, and we were lucky that we had some uh, some friends who were uh, working in the area and know some people there with

plans, and so we were with plan and so, we were able to choose the place. And um, and so they just came in and take everything. Everything. How did you learn to

farm and to navigate? Well yeah, we learned, we learned. Did someone teach you, or did everyone learn together? Farming, um, uh, we have to go out through the field

with the uh, with the—we, for the first year we have to hire somebody to do it. And then we learn along the way. And it’s not very

complicated, but it’s hard work, very, very hard work. Uh, farming for rice is hard work, very hard work. So whenever we eat our food, we got to be appreciate it. Because there’s a lot of

work in that. And then for fishing and navigating, um, I used the much knowledge that I had, and uh, to chart the course. Like we had to map. Luckily I have uh, a friend

who uh, whose uh, uncle was a communist. But now when they came in to control in power, that uncle, uh, um, was the

manager, uh, of the library of the U. S. that they left over. And in there they have lots of maps. Uh, military map.

And so I told him, “You over there, take that map.” And then, and then we tried to copy that map. And when I wasn’t allowed to go to college because our family was

considered enemy of the people. So no education at all. Uh, no job. No one will hire us.

Cannot go to school. And so I told my friend, “Okay, you know, steal that map.” And so he had that map, and then my uh, high-school friends, now they are in, uh, college.

Quite a few of them in um, in architecture. And so they scan the map, and each one of us has one. And so I used my

knowledge in math, uh, in math, in trigonometry, to chart the course. And then, but how to navigate the boat. I had to go with—we had to fire—to hire, um, um, a captain for the boat.

And then I go along with him, and I learn by asking. “How would you do it, if it was this way,” he says, “Okay, do this, do that.” And so those are all of the uh, the lessons that I learned. Because

in survival, you’ve got to learn fast. And I uh, uh…I think that um, it’s a, it’s a blessing also that I’m smart enough to learn fast.

Yeah. And I remember, um, when I teach um, trigonometry, and uh, one of the students asks, “Mr. Nong, what do we learn this for?” Have you heard that question several times?

And I was so annoyed with that, I, I told him, “What do we learn this for? For the test next week!” But then, but then after a while, I told him the story. How I used the knowledge of trigonometry to chart the

course. And so they, “Wow.” So that is the application of the knowledge that we learn here. And I told them, “I hope that you will never have to apply the knowledge that you learn now in trigonometry the way that

I used it. But uh, if—because happen, then you have the tool.” Uh, and so, and so, that’s the story, um… When you were learning to navigate, was it primarily for fishing, or did you have in

your mind that this was going—how you were going to escape one day? I learned not only navigating the boat, uh, but also how to fish, because we have to find, uh, a living. And uh, and they have uh,

the, the, the communist government, they have a policy. For the fishing boat, you have to uh, sell your product, uh, your, your, your catch, to um—and then sell—your catch for the government—to the government, in order to

buy the oil for the, the boat. Or the fuel for the boat. And so we have to go and do actual fishing work. Yeah. Uh,

so how did you—when did you decide that you were going to escape? Well, um, when they confiscated our house, and we know that we—the only way that we have to do is to escape.

Because we—all of the kids can’t go to school. I don’t have any job. Nobody, uh, allowed to, uh, hire us any, you know. And then the government control everything. They control everything.

You, uh, no private company. All companies, all things are controlled. And so when they look at your biography, that you are, uh, son of the, uh, the officer,

then…and then, and so, the only way for us is to go. And so we, we, it takes a long time, you know, two years, and um, a lot of hardship. Yeah. So it was you and all of your siblings and your

mother at that time together? Yes. Okay. What was the role of the rest of your family members and, uh, what did they do during that time to help your family? Uh, house chores.

House chores. Uh, and when uh, over here, when my mom had the, uh, convenience store, my youngest, uh, brothers, um, uh, helped too. After school, they go through

the store, you know, to watch out for a, you know, shoplifter and something like that. And do their homework there. And uh, and when I uh, was able to go back to, uh, college, um, I um, let’s see, I go to school in the morning, uh,

all class in the morning, part-time. And then go to the store, uh, from three to ten. And so I do my homework at the store too.

Uh, and uh, and I’ve never, uh, been able to, uh, go to school, through college, full-time. Always, uh, part-time, from uh, undergraduate to graduate school.

All part-time. I’ve never experienced full-time student, what’s that like. What were your plans for the future before the war even started? Well uh, my family was pretty well-to-do.

Uh, and so my plan is to go, uh, to the State to study. So after high school, uh, and then uh, go to the State. And uh, I’m, I was

pretty sure that I could do that because uh, my uh, I’m a very good student, you know, and so there’s no obstacle that could uh, stop that. And then the war ended, and then so everything,

gone. Yeah. The State as in the United States? Yes, U of H. So—U of H, I remember, the school that I apply is University of Houston. And um, and I got accepted.

And then, but that could never— come out there for…more than ten years. ’75 to ’85, yeah, ten years.

Yeah. Why did you choose the University of Houston? Hmm? Why did you choose U of H? I apply a lot. Yeah, but uh, but they sent the letter first. And then the war ended, and then, you know, everything, you know, falls, you know.

When you did come to the United States, what are your… I’m sorry. Oh, that’s okay. What are your memories of the journey from, um, the jungle to

the United States eventually—and you mentioned it was many steps from Thailand to the Philippines, and finally to the United States. What are your memories of that trip? Well, I um…the uh, the um, the

camp in uh, in Thailand, at that time was a very, very large camp. About 35,000 people were in a very small area. And uh, we were uh, we had uh, um,

very uh, limited supply of—food supply. Food supply was from uh, the UN. And um, and the, but the camp in Thailand was so—it was so crowded.

And all the camp in uh, in the uh, Southeast Asia, uh, Malaysia, Indonesia, the same. But the camp in the Philippines is run by the U. S. And it is

called the um, Refugee Processing Center. And uh, in order for the refugee to come to the U. S., they have to pass through the Processing Center in order to learn the uh, American, the American

way of life. And to prepare them for the new life. And so the camp in the Philippines, uh, is very, very well organized. Uh, and the refugees were well fed, and um, pretty—you

know, well housing, uh, instead of living in a tent. Uh, we have housing, uh, for each family. And so it’s, this is well run. Uh, and um, so the experience that we had during the time in the

camps, the best one is in the Philippines, yeah. When you came to the United States, what was your first memory, and where did you first land? My first memory?

Cold. Cold. It was uh, November, and I, and uh, and from the Philippines to the U—to the States, we stop at um, Alaska for refueling.

And when they opened the door, wow, you know, it’s, you know, we were freezing. And uh, and then we arrive in San Francisco, and we were not, uh, we didn’t

have any cold weather. And so again, uh, UN, uh, provided us with uh, with the um, the cold weather, the coat, jackets. But uh, I don’t know,

probably because it was uh, suddenly change in weather, we couldn’t adapt that quick, so we were so cold. But the people there, I saw that they were just, you know, wearing like…uh,

so what, but, but we wear big bulky jacket. And um, and then in San Francisco we stayed there for a night. Uh, because the fly from the Philippines come through the States would

stop at San Francisco, and then each family will, uh, go to their final destination. And so, so they dropped us, and uh, and then uh, the next day we uh, we

flew to uh, North Carolina. Charlotte, North Carolina. And it was cold there. It was cold. And um, and then that was the first time that we

saw, uh, snow. That was the first time that I saw snow, yeah. Did you like it? Mmm…yes. Yes. But uh, but I can’t stand cold weather, yeah.

How old were your siblings at this time? Were they young enough to throw snowballs and play? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, my uh, I have two younger sister and

two younger brother, they all went to high school here. Yeah. Um, I just want to go back to the Philippines refugee education center, right? Um, so what

did you learn there, and did it actually help you in America? Mmm…well, my English was pretty good, and so when I came to the camp, I was uh, drafted to be the interpreter.

And so I work with the uh, the U. S. delegation, uh with the people working. And so I learned the culture, the American culture, how do people interact with each

other, their um, the way that they, they talk. And so I, I learned pretty quick with the, with the uh, when I, when I interpret for them. And I remember there was one guy, he

speak Vietnamese too. And he was very proud of his Vietnamese. And so when the, a family came in for an interview, and I ask him, “Do you need me to help?” He

said, “No, I can.” And then he speak Vietnamese to them, and they don’t understand. Because they— Because, because they um…they are Vietnamese, but they’re from

the north. They were near to the, the uh—and that, at that time, Vietnam and China had conflict. And so Vietnam expelled the, the ethnic Chinese from Vietnam too. And so lots of them escaped

to Hong Kong. And so they don’t speak Vietnamese very well. And then that guy, he cannot speak, you know, very well Vietnamese pronunciation. So both, both sides don’t

understand each other. So you know, I had to come in, and I told him— I remember, his name is John. So was he American? Yeah. Yeah, I think he is CIA.

Um, was there anything that surprised you most about American culture, either at the camp or when you got here? Was anything different from what you had learned?

Mmm…no. That’s kind of expected, yes. Okay. Uh, so how did you move from North Carolina— Yeah, yeah, one thing that uh, that uh, that uh, the different culture. For we

Vietnamese, uh, we don’t say greeting to stranger we don’t know. So we just go and pass, but here, when you see anyone, even stranger to you, but you know, working, and you say, “Hi,”

right. Say hi, say bye. And uh, I was not used to that. So, “I don’t know you, so, so what?” And um, and so when I work in the store, I never greet my

customer. And so the cust—the, the supervisor said, “You have to greet them, you have to say hi, how are you?” So I got to learn not to—because in the beginning, I couldn’t do that.

I don’t understand that. You know, so that was the uh, one of the um, interesting, uh, but uh… That is interesting. And I feel like there’s a difference too between at a business or in a

restaurant, where people say hi because they’re working, and then on the street when people will say hi to any stranger walking nearby. Some towns are different in America, in some big cities, no one ever says hi, but a lot of smaller towns,

you always do. Yeah, smaller towns more uh, friendly. Um, so how did you eventually move to Houston? Um, so we came in late in 1980, and so I um, I stay—we stay in Charlotte

for about uh, six or eight months, I don’t remember correctly. But uh, I started working in Charlotte, North Carolina with a, um, a manufacturer making, uh,

oil filter. For the, uh, for big oil filters, as big as this one. It’s uh, for an oil drum. And uh, and the weather was so cold, and

my mom was—she uh, she was so bored, because she cannot do anything. She speaks no English, she stayed there in the house, and uh, kids going to school or go to work.

And so she uh, she contacted some of her friends here, and they ask her, they, they, they told her, “Oh, this is easier to make a living here, and uh, the weather is nicer, it’s warmer, just like in Vietnam.”

And so she uh, told us that she want to move. And I was young then, “Okay! Let’s explore.” And so it’s around, uh, 1981

or ’82, we move here. Do you have any first memories of Houston? Oh, well, we first uh, came to Pasadena. And uh, at that time it was uh, it was uh, in

evening. And we uh, we went to uh, Kmart to buy some stuff, and we walk out of our car and I see some tumbleweed, you know, blowing, you know, all this, we go, “Wow, this

is the wild, wild west.” Yeah, I remember that vividly, the tumbleweed, you know. And uh, and so we stay in uh, in Pasadena, and we work at any, uh, store that uh hire us.

So I work at several stores, uh, before I get promoted to store manager. I think that um, the, the fact that uh, helped me get promoted is uh, my English. Uh, because I prepared to go to the

States to study, so I learned English, spent a lot of time to learn English in Vietnam. And um, and so it paid off. When you were working those many jobs, um, I’m assuming those weren’t

the jobs you wanted to work, or that you’d aspired to work eventually, right? Was it just to make the money? Uh, no, no. When I came here, I told

myself, I’m a free man. I can do whatever I want. And not, uh, get bogged down into any tradition or uh, the norm of the thinking of the Vietnamese

people. Most of my uh, classmates, and my, my friends here in college, they chose, uh, major in engineering, in um, uh, computer science, uh, and eventually some tried to go to

medical, so on and so forth. The traditional, stable, well paid jobs. And I uh, I chose mathematics. And then they said, “What are you going to do with that degree?” “This is my problem,

this is not your business, that’s my business!” And then uh, I got my uh, math degree, uh, with the uh, with minor in comp—uh, in um, political science.

And um, and then I go teach. Yeah. Had you always wanted to teach? No, uh, it happened, I actually, I had um…my uh, my aspiration is to,

to help, um, uh, liberate my country. And I go to college to study in order to get a degree to prove that I am able

to do it. But actually I don’t care much about the material, or uh, and if, you know, is there any chance that help me to go back and liberate, uh, you know, to bring democracy to Vietnam, then

I will go, you know, like that. And then um, you know, things happened, I met my wife. And then when we are about to uh, to get married, and then she said that, “You have to

have a stable job. Otherwise my… won’t approve.” And so I worked odd jobs. I said, okay.

And then I look around, and then I uh, and uh, HISD open—uh, have opening at that time, so I went to, and they need, they need math teachers real bad. And so when they learned

that I have a math degree, and then they uh, so happy to have me, yeah. And uh, it was quite a—and then, I, I find out that teaching is also one of my, uh, callings.

Yeah. So how did you meet your wife? Uh, we were really active in our community, uh, for the—because here, the uh, the Vietnamese youth, uh, also have problems, and kind of get lost

between the two cultures. So we try to bridge that gap. And she had uh, activities with the youth, she was a Girl Scout in Canada.

And I had been active in our own community as well. And so when we went to a conference, uh, we met at a conference, and then I saw that she’s uh, very outspoken, very enthusiastic, and very

um, passionate about the issues. And so I said, “Wow, this girl is something.” And then so we, yeah, we connect, yeah. How old were you both at the time?

Uh, thirty-something. 35, thirty—uh, no, I…when I get married I was 37, so, four years before that, yeah. But uh, but when uh, we date, we only,

um, met face-to-face six times. She’s in, uh, Toronto, Canada. And uh, but at that time the uh, the ‘90s, computer and email was not popular yet.

Uh, and so, so we had to use snail mail. Uh, wrote a lot of letters. Do you still have the letters? Um, I move a lot, so I lost most of it.

But she had all of my mail, my letters. She said, “You cannot deny, you said this, this letter.” Um, so did she—she was to move to Houston with you?

Yes. Yes. And so this is a sacrifice for her too, because her family was um, in Canada. Uh, her parents and siblings in Canada. And she had a stable job, with IBM Canada.

And so when we—when she moved here, she leave everything. And uh, start with uh, two hands again. So that’s her sacrifice, to follow, uh, me. Um, so you taught for fourteen

years, right? And what grade and in what school? I…in uh, I taught at the Michael DeBakey High School for Health Professions. And I started with the…the, the uh, the uh, with the tenth grade.

And so I taught, and after that I taught, uh, juniors and seniors only. I taught um, calculus, and um, and uh, pre-calculus. So mainly, uh,

calculus and pre-calculus, and um, and um…in the few years, uh, last few years of my uh, teaching, I uh, initiated the uh, the AP uh, statistics.

So I built the program for AP statistics for DeBakey, yeah. And it was uh, I got the support from my principal. Uh…that class cannot fit

into any, uh, regular schedule. And so she said that either you teach it in the morning, early in the morning before school, or after school. And I, I don’t like to get up early, so I did after

school. So I, I taught that beginning class, uh, the first, uh, AP statistics at the school. Um, for one hour. And uh, to get the program started. And now it’s uh, one of the strong programs, AP

statistics at DeBakey, yeah. How did you learn to…be a teacher? Like, were there any teachers you were thought— thinking of that you tried to copy, or, and how long did it take you to be comfortable

as a teacher? Um, how long did it take for you to be comfortable as a teacher? Oh, uh, the second year. But my first year was uh, hell. . It was

uh, it was terrible! And uh, and my gradebook even, they stole my gradebook! And, and it was uh, and during the summer, I reflect. I reflect.

They are students. That means that I don’t know how to deal with them. Because in the first year I don’t know, uh, well, let me

go back a little bit, it’s funny! I don’t know whether it was true or not, but I look pretty young with my age, uh, at that time. And so when the principal interviewed me, she’s kind of reluctant.

And she uh, didn’t want to hire me yet. And then when the school is about to open, another school offer. And so I went to other school. I went to the other school, and then they welcomed me

because they need math teacher, they welcome everything, and so, okay. But then, I don’t like to teach uh, lower-level math. But they assigned me to teach uh, algebra one.

And I, I don’t like that. And then, during lunch, lunchtime, to—after I get all of the books in, and supplies and everything, during lunchtime I call, uh, home.

And then my sister said that uh, the principal at DeBakey call you. So I call her. And then uh, she said uh, “Can you come teach Monday?” The first day of school!

I go, “Oh yes!” And so I came back to the principal of this school and I told him, uh, “I’m sorry, I got to go. I’m very, very sorry.” Uh, and then so I go! And then when I go to DeBakey, the teach—the first day of school,

the uh, assistant principal give me the calculus book. “Go teach!” I didn’t know anything! About, uh, the bell schedule, I

don’t know! And the bell—there’s two kind of bells ringing for lunch, and the first lunch and second lunch, and so, I didn’t know anything, so I let them go! And so, he came, came by and said, he told me, he asked me, “Why’d you let them go?” “I don’t know!

The bell rang! I didn’t know there are two bells!” Oooh I didn’t know. And so, for the first year, they um, they just let me teach.

And uh, my gradebook was stolen. And um, and then I uh, in the summer I reflect, yeah. That is because of me.

Not of them, you know. In the first year I don’t know, what can I do? If I tell them to do something and they don’t do it. What can I do? If you

tell somebody to do something and they don’t do it, what can you do, beat them? Or what? But see, that kind of um, of um, mentality, shows somehow.

But the kids know that you don’t know! And so they, they push! And so I told myself for the second year, I’m going to try another year. And uh, and then it works.

Because, now, the first thing that you’re teaching in any group meeting, group gathering, the first thing to do is to set the ground rules. Regardless what, uh, situation, what circumstances.

For group gathering, you must have ground rules. And then if you’re in charge, you have to enforce, immediately. Later on you can relax, but, any infraction, enforce it. So that everybody knows

that you mean business. And so my second year I applied that. Even though I learned that in uh, in um, in pedagogical, uh, theory already. But I didn’t apply it!

And so it, it happened that way. And so the second year I go in, I take control, I established my position, and everything was fine, from there on! And they know that I mean business.

Uh, first I am competent, I’m good. Second, I care. And third, don’t mess with me. And so, kids fall into place, and they, they love to

have me as their math teacher, yeah. Did you notice any change in the school system over those fourteen years? The education system in America? Uh…nothing changed. Sad, sadly.

Nothing changed. What do you wish had changed? Um…the um, the, the teacher, uh, need to be, um, treated differently. I mean

uh, with uh, higher respect. With better pay. Because in comparison with other, uh, career, it is not uh, comparable.

Even though if you uh, you, you uh, analyze it, is it okay, because uh, teachers only teach 185 days a year. Uh, but uh, but the uh, the respect. It’s also respect. Need to

be boost up. Uh, and better pay, to retain good teacher. Because with the same degree I can make three times or two times as much.

Um, and, I didn’t see that happen. Uh, and uh…less bureaucracy. Less bureaucracy. Uh, I know that uh, there are uh,

so many, um, how do you say it? Um, positions that are not needed. Uh, I don’t know why they created those positions, you

know, pay them—instead using that money to pay teachers, to retain the good teachers. Uh, and um, and those are the things that I wish could be implemented. And um…and testing.

Testing must be, um, appropriate. It is not only, uh, the tool, to measure the uh, the uh, the learning. You could score very high on, on test, but you do not learn

as much. Um, and um, so using wise use of resources. And uh, allow uh, school to have more leeway.

So my principal at DeBakey, she had a lot of leeway to uh, to help us to uh, to develop the, the curriculum, uh, that fit the school. Okay.

Um…do you have any stories from students that are especially funny? Besides the trigonometry question? Oh! Uh…I had um, a course, uh,

with U of H. They offer a um, a course for, uh, high school teacher to learn, uh, a special course with uh, a professor at U of

H. Uh, how to uh, implement, uh, the uh, integrate the um, the uh, teaching and high school material with the courses in college in the future.

And uh, and that program, I don’t know whether it still uh, still exists or not. But uh, but that uh, program, um, they offered is—the teachers, uh, 1,500

stipend, and uh, three-hour graduate credit. Uh, we have to go to U of H for a seminar every week, once a week. Uh, and um, and learn and share.

And um, and when I saw the advertisement, uh, the professor that gonna teach that one, that course, at that time, was Dr. uh, Ross Lence.

He was my uh, teacher, also, when I uh, was in uh, political science. He’s a great, uh, a great professor. So when I saw his name, I go “Okay, I will take him again.” And so, um, and we go—and that, that

uh, program title, um, “How to Read Great Books.” And then, and then, we have to—each subject teacher, subject-matter teacher, had to figure a way to link the “great books” to their, uh,

subject matter. And after the course, and you design a curriculum that apply that. And you teach that, and then you get the stipend. That is the condition. And so, when I uh,

as I told you, I am a avid reader. And so, but how to make a connection? Maths and great books. And so I uh, I figure out a way.

By linking the um, the uh, ideas in mathematics with a lot of uh, reading, uh, in the, in the field of history that, that related to uh, the math.

So that is the, I, this, I, the title of that uh curriculum was, “The Three Mysterious Numbers in Mathematics.” And uh, those are pi, the first one.

And then, zero. And then, the four mysterious, and then—no, three, and then, e, uh, natural logarithm. So the first one is uh, pi.

It’s natural, it’s natural. The second one, and the, the, the, the, the second and third one are manmade. Zero and, and e. And so, and then I divide um, my uh, AP, uh, calculus

BC into three groups. And then each group had to research the history and the development and the application of those numbers in mathematics. And then, uh, after they do their research, write

a report, and then they have to present to the whole class for critiques, for discussion. And uh, and one of the group uh, with the uh, the number, uh, pi.

Uh, they dress up like uh, uh, ancient Greek, with toga and everything, you know, and then they, they, come to the board, and they present. So it’s quite, quite funny.

And then the professor, and the coordinator of the program at U of H came to observe. And he uh, he loved it. And that paper was published, and uh, you can search it on uh, internet.

“The Three Mysterious Numbers,” yeah. Um, so after your, after your teaching is when you started your non-profit? Right? So how

long had you been planning to start that non-profit and what finally led you to decide it’s time to start? Uh, it’s kind of uh, a sudden, uh, change in career and a great leap of faith.

Um, when we were on uh, on our tenth anniversary, and I uh, my wife and I talk. And, and we realized that uh, even though we um, we

told ourselves that we working for community and for the betterment of Vietnam and so on and so forth. But actually the time that we devoted for those works, it’s just part-time.

And with part-time job, part-time result. And not—and we, we didn’t do it part-time, only in spare time. And so how could we expect the, the, the, the, the big impact?

And so I told him, uh, told her, that unless we do it all the way, full-time, then we might hope to see the impact. And uh, she said yes. And then so, “I’m going to quit my job to do it.

And uh, and you have to support me. You have to feed me, you know.” And she says okay, because she’s—her salary is three times as much as my salary. So we have no kids.

We have— and, we have no, you know, financial burden. With one salary or her salary, we could do it. And she said, “Go ahead!” And so I, I, I go ahead. Uh, and um, before we

can go, I had to go and research and consult a lot of people to get their ideas and feedback. And there are a few, um, persons, that I am uh, indebted, uh, because—not only that

they uh, they support, but they give very good feedback and uh, advice for, for us to start. Who are some of those people? Who are some of those people that helped in the process?

Um…I uh, for the, for the ideas, I got the critique from uh, from uh, Dr., uh, Dr. Vu Pham, uh, in California. He’s a professor at uh, UCI.

Uh, he’s also a um, a coach, uh, and uh, and um, a life coach and trainer. Professional trainer for um, for big companies like uh—so

his firm is kind of like uh, . So he provides training for uh, other big companies’ employees. And so he know uh, what fit for what to expect, and then so he gave a lot of good

feedback for me. Uh, and also I had uh, I know nothing about, uh, website. But I think that uh, the, the future—we started it in 2005—belong to

the internet. So online is their tool that we have to use a lot. But I know nothing about, uh, website, or…so I had a friend.

He uh, agreed to, to be my, uh, CIO. Uh, and he developed the website and um, and then along the way I had to learn HTML as well.

Programming. Uh, and uh, and so, for the um, for the idea and the uh, the curriculum, uh, that’s my expertise. Um, technical, I have uh, a friend to help.

And uh, one that we need, uh, very important, is the financial. So uh, we had to uh, do fundraising, uh, every year. And uh, we uh, rent uh, an office.

Um, my wife told me that, “Why can’t you set up a home office?” I told her, “No home office, I won’t work well with home office.” You know, after working, I can go down to the kitchen, eat something, and go to the sofa, play some

guitar. No, not serious. Yeah, not serious. So, so, so we, I have to have a place. So then I force myself into uh, the working

mode. Uh, and, and so we, we rent uh, an office. And uh, I work there by myself. Around—surrounded by books!

In the first two years I develop a curriculum. And I had to go to uh, to seek uh, and recruit. So, we go around the country to find, uh, and

then the uh, criteria for my recruit is this. They must be able to uh, uh…they must, uh, have the ability and the knowledge of both language, both languages.

Vietnamese and American. They have to have time. They are not constrained by working. And so, they’re retiree.

And, and then they have vast knowledge of, uh, history and culture, and uh, and language skill to help develop. And those are the uh, the, the um, the scholars

that in retiring age now. And so I have to go find them and, and ask them to join. Uh, so I met uh, with uh, former professors, uh, in uh,

Vietnam. Uh, University of Vietnam. And they agreed to help, and now they are retired. And, and they’re still young. If I wait ten more years, then they cannot do it because they’re too old.

And so I, I told my wife, uh, we have to take this opportunity. Because if we wait—because when I stopped teaching, I still have ten, ten years to be uh, formally

retired with benefits. So if I wait ten year to start, and then the one that I want to recruit, they cannot do it anymore.

They’re too old. When I, when I tap them now, and then they’re still young enough, and energy, uh, enough to, to work. If I wait and then, they, they—then we will waste the whole, uh,

knowledge, and, and, and skills. And so we have to wait. Which one is uh, for us, for the betterment of myself, to, to be able to,

uh, live comfortably with uh, retirement? Or, or go now, and then uh, do not have the full, uh, benefit of retiring.

And so we chose the first one, go now. Uh, and so we recruited uh, quite a few big, uh, name. Uh, big um, professors, uh, to help us.

And um, and so we go around and uh, recruiting, and um, writing curriculum, developing, designing curriculum. And um, I am surrounded by, by books.

And so, so people visit the office, ask, “Don’t you feel lonely, working alone?” And I told them, “No, I am not alone! I am surrounded by great men.

Hobbes! Locke! Uh, Aristotle! Plato! I am not alone, right? They are around me, great people here, they talk to me all the time!

So a big part of the non-profit is translating those works into Vietnamese, right? That sounds really challenging! Are there any challenges of getting some ideas lost in translation?

Uh, yeah, and um…uh, that is our, uh, goal, one of the goals is to translate the great books into Vietnamese. Because um, we…Vietnam

never had any kind of works translated into Vietnamese. Never. We might know about Plato, Aristotle, Hobbes, uh, Mill, Locke, but for the

entire work, we do not have. We only have excerpts, and that’s not enough for studying for…and so my goal and my, my dream is to translate as much as, as many as possible, the great works

into Vietnamese. Um, we—and I am very proud to say that we finished all Plato’s work into Vietnamese. All Plato dialogues into Vietnamese.

This is the first time ever in the Vietnamese history that uh, we have that, that work. And um, I myself translated um…the um…Politics by

Aristotle, and uh, the Second Treatise of Government by John Locke. Uh, I am working on, uh, another book by uh, Immanuel Kant, uh, On Education.

We know that Kant is a very big philosopher. Very influential one. But uh, but he had a, a little treatise on uh, on education.

It’s very interesting. Yeah. What do you want Vietnamese students to learn from those works? Mhm. Uh, in uh, in, s—yeah, it is for the Vietnamese people in general. Uh, in Vietnam, uh,

we had work from uh, from the Eastern philosophy. Like from uh, Confucius, and other, uh, Eastern philosophy translated into Vietnamese. But for the Western side, we lacked severely.

Yeah. And so in our capacity, we could do that to help, to build that up. That would be great. And uh, and I got that idea when I learn of another great man, a Japanese man.

His name is Fukuzawa. Uh, he was the pioneer of the um, the innovation in uh, in Japan. That, that bring Japan up to uh, modernization.

Uh, his name is on the, the money, uh, his face is on the money. And he translated in the same way. So uh, On Liberty by Mill was translated into,

uh, Japanese. And all the works, great works, already translated into Japanese. And they, see how they develop now. Because those are the ideas, the uh, the transcendental.

It, it does not belong to any culture or uh, any country anymore. Uh, they are the treasure of the world. And, and if we can bring that

to our country, we will enrich our country. Just like um, The Social Contract. There are about ten different uh, translations into English. It was a French work by uh, Rousseau.

Uh, similarly, uh, On Liberty was translated into uh, Japan, uh, into Japanese ten times. Uh, so, so each new

generation see that something can be improved, and they undertake that. Um…are there any—what books are you reading right now? And what other hobbies do you have? You mentioned playing the guitar, how did you learn to play the guitar?

Yeah. Uh, I am uh, playing guitar, and I’m pretty good at that too. Um, but uh, all by myself. I learned—self-learned. Uh, but I play pretty well.

I mean, I play classical music, uh, classical guitar. And I play very well, uh, indeed. But uh, I didn’t have any formal training. Um, I first pick up the guitar when I was in ninth grade.

And then uh, I learned uh, how to strum…the chords. Because, one of my cousin, uh, at that time was uh, stayed with us to go to school. And uh, and he, uh, his dad, uh, sent him to learn

guitar. But my family, uh, my dad, uh, is stationed away, and my mom didn’t care much about music learning. So I didn’t have a chance to to go to, to learn formally.

And so I pick up from him. And so I asked him how you do this, how do you do that. And then he, he, he, he show me. And, and I pick up that, strumming.

Uh, and then uh, in about tenth grade, I met an uncle who played a piece of uh, classical music, classical guitar. And I was fascinated.

You know, whoa, that is that kind of music that I want to play. But I still have no real means to go for formal training, so I pick up myself. And then fortunately, in

my uh, class, I have other friends who had formal training at the uh, National Conservatory. And so, I go to them and ask them, “How do you do this?” And then they taught me. And so I pick up

all of those and then I think that you need to, to grasp the principle and the basic. And after that, you can figure out. And then I bought the book, uh, and then I learned from books and from

friends. So do you play for you wife and for your family or for yourself? And uh not only that I play, I uh, compose too. Yeah, I wrote uh, about ten songs? Yeah, yeah. But I didn’t—I’m so busy I didn’t have uh, time to,

to uh, compose music, uh, anymore. Uh, when, in your mind you have Locke and Mill. And uh, and so we, I, I don’t have much time for that hobby uh, hobby uh, anymore.

Have you published your songs anywhere? Uh, not yet. Only, uh, around—uh, among friends, yeah. So who are your closest friends and family that you would share your compositions with

if you started playing again? Uh, actually, uh…I had a few friends that are close when I uh, get something done, uh,

artistically, I show them, yeah. And ask them critique as well, yeah. Um, so your whole family lives in Houston, r—right, to this day? How

often do you get to see them and spend time with them? Uh, when my dad, uh, was alive, uh, we meet every week, in the weekend, at uh, his house. Uh, and um, and he cooked for

us. He was a great cook. I don’t know where did he, uh, where did he uh, pick up uh, those skills, but but he cooked, you know, very, very well. Yeah.

And uh, we miss him, yeah. Do you have lots of nieces and nephews? Hm? Do you have a lot of nieces and nephews? A what? Uh, do your siblings, do they have children?

And do you… Yeah, yeah, they all have uh, children, uh, all of my siblings are now uh, married and uh, with children. And their kids are grown up too. Uh, one of my niece, uh, one of my nieces is a

lawyer. Er, and uh, and my uh, godson, which is my um, younger brother’s son, uh, uh, he’s uh, in medical school. Last year of medical school.

And others are in college. And the, and now I have uh, grandchildren. Yeah. Okay,

what are, um…you’ve mentioned some of your hopes for the future of Vietnam. Um, do you have any more hopes for both your own life, and for the future of Vietnamese Americans, or America in general?

Yeah, I um, when I uh, do the work for the Vietnamese uh, youth in Vietnam, I saw that there’s a need here too, for the Vietnamese American youth here. And not only for the

Vietnamese American, for the…as an educator, I see that there’s a need for, for Americans in general. Uh, to uh, to be better off. Uh, there are a lot of um, of things that we can pass on to

them and help them develop. Uh, like life skills. Uh, you won’t learn that in school. They don’t teach you that in school.

Uh, how, how do you set goal? How do you uh, um, develop other skills. Uh, like um, time management.

Uh, in order to be successful, uh, what else do you need? Uh, not only that you get a degree, that is not enough. You need to have other skills as well. But nobody, uh, teaching that, uh, formally.

And school didn’t teach them at all. Uh, and so I think that a lot of things that I could do here in this country as well as in parallel to the people in

Vietnam. Because with online, it’s easy for them to access. Yeah. And I believe that when the people are equipped with the ideas and um, and openminded enough to absorb new things…uh, with

discernment, then they can bring themselves up and out of any uh, slump. And the, the mind is very important. Uh, that is the thing that uh, determine

everything else. And if uh, there’s a saying uh, that I am very uh, fond of, uh, by Dr. Dyer. “If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.”

Right? So that is the, the, the, the key word. The thing that the, the kids now need to realize. And don’t get um, uh, bogged

down or, uh, lament that I’m badly treated or—but if you—in, even in the, the dire, uh, situation, if you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. And you can find a way

out of, or higher of, that uh, situation. But those skills need to be learned. And somebody had to teach them. Uh, and with the programs that uh,

that we designed, I think that we can do that in either way. And another thing is the uh, the civic education. Civic education is uh, something very important.

Because if we don’t know our rights and our duty to the society, and then it will lead to the what? The apathy. Just let it go, it’s not my problem.

And then what will happen? That society, that country, will go down. It is a very simple, uh, observation. After you uh, you

make the flower bed, and for a week you don’t care about it, what would you see? Weeds gonna grow up. Right? So it needs to have—to be taken care of.

Same here, in the wider society. And then, and if you don’t take it as your responsibility, who will? So each one of us have to. So those are the civic education that I need to instill.

Especially for the people in Vietnam, because they have no concept, no idea what citizen—citizenship mean. They live under the totalitarian dictatorship regime.

They don’t know. Because they used to be told. They get used to be told. And the country belongs to the party and not to them. But actually what—our country, here,

belongs to us too! That’s why, in the Constitution, “We the people,” and not “We the states,” see? Even though the name is the United States, what—we

the people. We the people make the difference, make the difference. That is the key! And so, so it is relevant for

either—for the program to be taught here and in Vietnam. And using the online, uh, platform, it is doable. Yeah. And uh, and some might ask, uh, how about the uh, the effectiveness, the impact that you have.

That’s what—your work will, will bring. Uh, I will tell them uh, a parable of a um, a sower, and uh, and a reaper.

Uh, so the sower go to the field, and plant the seed. Some of the seeds fall down, and then the birds get it. Some go to the uh, land, and then the land, uh,

but not very fertile land. So it grows and then it die. And so on. And, but eventually when he found some good land, he plant the seed in the good land.

Provide thirty percent, sixty percent, and a hundred percent. And so you will never know. But even the good land, some will provide, produce only thirty. Some will produce sixty.

Some will produce one hundred. But the key word is what? You got to do it. And it will.

It will. So the, the, the, the, the moral of the story is, if we don’t do it, and then, we never expect to have anything. And another, um, another saying that

um, uh, I use as some of my motto…by uh, President Theodore Roosevelt, is that uh, “Do whatever you can with what you have right now.”

So whatever you can with whatever you have! Do not wait until you have all of the things! And do it now! So, so that, that, that’s the, the, the motivation, the work.

And we can do it. And, and, and, to play the good role of a citizen is to participate. Is to take care, is to take care of the weak. And uh, and be a responsible citizen in order to maintain our

society, right here! Even right here, and not in, in, in, in Vietnam. Vietnam… a big, you know, tremendous, huge, humongous problem. But um, even in a developed country, like

our country here in the U. S., we need to care. If you don’t care, somebody will do whatever they want. So go vote! What do you think about,

um, having experienced being a refugee, and then knowing about refugee crises going on now, how do you think the United States is treating refugees, and how has—has that changed at all since you experienced it?

Uh, yeah, I can relate to that uh, with being a refugee, with the uh, situation with refugee right now. Um, but uh, the refugees are people who escape

or leave their countries because they cannot live there anymore. Because of uh, violence or even economics. So they, they, they seek

help. And um, and so, the UN and uh—had um, agreed that everyone has the right to migrate. According to—and the country had to—that they migrate to, had

to uh, be able to uh, to help them. But admitted them or not according to their law. But uh, you cannot drive them away because they are dire people.

They are dying. They are sick in health. So the uh, the refugee in the Middle East, uh, in Syria, and uh, in all the countries in the Middle East, uh, I

see that they have the same plight as the Vietnamese people before. Um, and uh, and they deserve. But how is another problem. Uh, in Europe now, uh, Germany received a lot

of the Middle Eastern refugees. And uh, all the countries, France, and uh, England as well. And of course, when you open the door, then all sort of people come in. And then all sort of problem

will happen. But that’s expected, because human being. Uh, and so, so I am uh, I am uh, uh, empathy with the uh, the refugees.

Uh, if Thailand or Malaysia or Indonesia didn’t accept us then, back then, we will all die on the high sea. Uh, and uh, it was estimated by the UN that uh, about a million people escaped Vietnam after 1975.

And uh, two thirds of them didn’t make it. That’s a lot of people die on the high sea. Um, did you practice a religion growing up, and do you, do you and your wife practice a religion? Uh, for religion, uh, my family in Vietnam,

uh, we were ancestor worship. Uh, we didn’t—we were not uh, Buddhist or Christian. So ancestor worship is the majority of the Vietnamese people. Um, when we came here

in 1980, uh, we were sponsored by a Vietnamese church in Charlotte, North Carolina. And uh, the pastor there, uh, talked, talked to us and uh, and converted us to uh, to

uh, Christianity. And so now, my family, are Baptist. And when I uh, when I first, uh…when I was first converted to uh, to uh, Christianity, I

didn’t believe. I didn’t believe at all. Uh, I was still uh, smoking and drinking. But uh, but then eventually, uh, later on, in my life I encountered some

incidents that uh, that makes me realize that uh, there’s a God. And uh, and so, I changed, yeah. Do you have

any questions, Tian-Tian? Um, yes, I have one more. Um so, while you were teaching high school, what—which student taught you

the most? Um…human relation. Human relation. And uh, the, the lesson I draw from that is that if you care, then your student know it.

And that’s the—that makes all the difference. Yeah. It makes all the difference. Um, I uh…I remember one incident.

Um, I had uh, a twin. A twin student. Two sister, they look exactly alike. What they uh, they were so uh, they uh, they say—they,

they, it seems that they don’t study. Uh, they are failing. And um, I call, uh, their parents. And then I,

instead of getting the parents I got a grandma. And the grandma told me that their mom ran away. Because she’s single mom. And she ran away. And now I—and the grandma said that, and

now I have to, to raise those two girls. And um, and so I know their family situation. So I changed the way that I see them.

And then I talked to them. And then I motivate them. And then I tutor them. And so they eventually graduate high school, and then they go to

uh, nursing school and became nurse! And they came back to high school and they, and they hugged me! So whoa, yeah.

So caring is more important than, than—but so, to be a successful teacher, to me, I think, uh you must be competent, you must be master of your subject. And then you have

to care. And if you have those two qualities, then you will be a successful teacher. Yeah. Did you know any Vietnamese American students? Did you teach any Vietnamese

American children, as a teacher? Um…yes, yeah. And uh, it’s also kind of funny, one of my high-school student, uh, a few

years back, came back to teach at the same school. Did you—did, did they have any connection with you, do you think, because you were both Vietnamese American? Or was it kind of the same with each student?

Mm, I don’t know. Okay. Um, alright I think I’m done with questions if Tian-Tian doesn’t have any more. But is there anything else you’d like to say to whoever might listen to this in the years? Uh, well, uh, openminded…yes.

I agree. That’s a great lesson. Thank you so much for sharing everything with us today. You’re welcome, uh, I enjoy talking to you too. Thank you. Thank you!